Tall Ships of Twilight 2000

[Olefin]

A place for discussing known tall ships that could be active in the Twilight 2000 world of late 2000 early 2001 - this is just a sampling and shows the kind of ships that could be encountered either in the hands of navies, marauders and pirates or in commercial sevice as freighters

Canon has two known tall ships

USS Hyman Rickover - in USN service - armed barkentine Gazela Primeiro

USS Constitution replica - armed frigate

original USS Constitution - she is not mentioned in Last Submarine and her fate is not indicated in Gateway to the Spanish Main - so she could have been taken by the USN for use

Real World examples that should still be in operation if they werent lost

Concordia - barkentine in Canadian navy service

KRI Dewaruci - Indonesian Navy barkentine

Arung Samudera - Indonesian Navy Class B schooner

USS Niagara - sailing brig from the War of 1812 - Lake Erie

USCGC Eagle (WIX-327) - Barque in Coast Guard Service pre-war

USS Constellation - she would have been in a refit in Baltimore and thus if finished able to sail on her own by mid 1998

[James Langham]

From memory, Going Home mentions a German training ship that is missing.

A place for discussing known tall ships that could be active in the Twilight 2000 world of late 2000 early 2001 - this is just a sampling and shows the kind of ships that could be encountered either in the hands of navies, marauders and pirates or in commercial sevice as freighters

Canon has two known tall ships

USS Hyman Rickover - in USN service - armed barkentine Gazela Primeiro

USS Constitution replica - armed frigate

original USS Constitution - she is not mentioned in Last Submarine and her fate is not indicated in Gateway to the Spanish Main - so she could have been taken by the USN for use

Real World examples that should still be in operation if they werent lost

Concordia - barkentine in Canadian navy service

KRI Dewaruci - Indonesian Navy barkentine

Arung Samudera - Indonesian Navy Class B schooner

USS Niagara - sailing brig from the War of 1812 - Lake Erie

USCGC Eagle (WIX-327) - Barque in Coast Guard Service pre-war

USS Constellation - she would have been in a refit in Baltimore and thus if finished able to sail on her own by mid 1998

[RN7]

From memory, Going Home mentions a German training ship that is missing.

Probably the Gorch Fock II built in 1958. She was originaly built to replace the original German naval training ship the Gorch Fock which was scuttled in 1945, then salvaged by the Soviets and renamed the Tovarishch. The Tovarishch was then transfered to the Ukraine in 1991 and ended up back in Germany in 1999 and was converted to a museum ship and renamed the Gorch Fock.

[weswood]

I did some research on this, never wa happy with a replica Constitution. Way too large a crew needed. Of course, all my research notes & links were lost when my old computer crashed, but I think this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Surprise_(replica_ship) was the one I chose as a replacement.

[Canadian Army]

Here are a couple of links to help

List of tall ships: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tall_ships

List of large sailing vessels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large_sailing_vessels

[Olefin]

by the way - love the idea of two or more tall ships fighting it out with modern weaponry or even old cannons that still work - sort of a modern version of the Napoleanic naval wars

[Adm.Lee]

The original USS Constitution IRL was refitted for sailing in the 1990s for her bicentennial. She might be somewhat seaworthy.

I have no argument with substituting the Surprise for her as a "movie-built replica" as IIRC, she's appeared in several movies. And how could I turn down a chance to let my PCs sail on "our dear Surprise" {Huge fan of the novels and the flick}

[Canadian Army]

The HMCS Oriole (KC 480); the sail training vessel of the Royal Canadian Navy based at CFB Esquimalt in Victoria, British Columbia; would be seen on west coast.

[Olefin]

Posted this in the Frankenstorm thread too but appropriate here as well - the HMS Bounty replica that was built for the 1962 movie just went down off the NC coast in the storm - shows what a hurricane can do and offers obvious ideas for similar disasters in the Twilight 2000 world where such ships would be pressed into service as either freighters, transports or warships again

[Hybris]

http://blogg.forsvarsmakten.se/gladanochfalken/information-in-english/

[antimedic]

Learned about the Bounty about an hour ago. This sucks, we had the chance to tour the ship and meet the crew this spring here in St. Augustine. Last we heard, 14 have been rescued, and 2, including the Captain are still missing.

[dvyws]

Why mess abut with frgates and training ships?
The Royal Navy still as the Victory in comission - how hard would it be to flood the drydock she sits in, and Presto! Britannia rules the waves once more!

Might have fun finding a crew for her of course...

And so begins the next naval arms race!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Why mess abut with frgates and training ships?
The Royal Navy still as the Victory in comission - how hard would it be to flood the drydock she sits in, and Presto! Britannia rules the waves once more!

Might have fun finding a crew for her of course...

And so begins the next naval arms race!

Actually considering that even by canon, the US has a Ohio class nuclear submarine (USS City of Corpus Christi) and one operational Spruance class destroyer (USS John Hancock), I'd have to say advantage: USN. ;) But by all means, try to rule the waves in wooden sailing vessels! :D

All kidding aside, except for the missions the City of Corpus Christi undertakes, I'd wager 99% of all naval ops post-2000, for at least a decade or two, are going to be brown-water only for whatever primary belligerent country's navy. Brazil, Taiwan and a couple of other nations still have operable carriers, making them the preeminent blue-water navies...

[Panther Al]

Why mess abut with frgates and training ships?
The Royal Navy still as the Victory in comission - how hard would it be to flood the drydock she sits in, and Presto! Britannia rules the waves once more!

Might have fun finding a crew for her of course...

And so begins the next naval arms race!

From what I recall, thats a non-starter. Her hull is in horrible shape - far to gone to be returned to seaworthy conditions shy of more than a few tens of millions of dollars in work.

[Olefin]

According to A Rock In Troubled Waters they have at least three Forest Sherman DD's still in commission as well between Cape May and Norfolk along with several smaller ships as well.

And dont count the US out as to carriers - they still have one Harrier carrier left in the RDF which is the equal of the Brazil or Thai carrier. And most likely at least one of their full size ones is still left - but not operational due to fuel constraints (a carrier without fuel for her planes is still a carrier but not an operational one after all)

[Kilgs]

Duluth hosts a Tall Ships event every year and has info pages on the ships that attend. All of these vessels also travel the Great Lakes as well as the oceans to get to Duluth (Lake Superior, MN).

Sadly the Bounty was a regular visitor.

http://www.northernimages.com/Tall-Ships-Duluth-2010/Individual-Tall-Ships

There's also a virtual deck tour for some of them on that site.

[Hybris]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_Ships%27_Races


From Gothenburg 1997.


http://www.ostindiefararen.com/aventyret/tallship.shtml

[Graebarde]

One of the best sites I have seen on tall ships or sailing vessels that are in sevice today, and probably would have been around in twilight, coming in all sizes, is schoonerman. http://www.schoonerman.com/

[Raellus]

Starring...

BAE Guayas (Ecuador)

From the linked article:

"Over 257 feet long, the vessel is a school ship, built in Spain, launched in 1976, and home-based in Guayaquil, Ecuador. Outwardly, the design of this vessel recalls the tall ships of the 19th century. Unarmed, the sailing vessel has a typical crew of about 120, including 80 cadets."

Yeah, this happened...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/42863/ecuadorian-navy-sailing-ship-catches-low-profile-narco-speedboat

-

[Targan]

The Duyfken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duyfken) replica would have just missed out on being part of the original T2K timeline - she was launched in 1999.

[cawest]

The Duyfken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duyfken) replica would have just missed out on being part of the original T2K timeline - she was launched in 1999.

maybe not. she had her keel laid in mar 97. this could be used as a propaganda tool. it also was built in the Duyfken Replica Ship Yard in Fremantle, Western Australia. It is not like this place would be working on modern warships. So she might have fight under a new flag, but she might have launched. without fuel this might force it to be finished and launched.

[Ursus Maior]

For fans of the new edition and a going home style campaign: Here is a chance for survivors of 2MARDIV to build their way out and have a Spanish Main style adventure. It appears, the Swedish navy thought somewhat ahead back after Napoleonic Wars:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/visingso-oak-forest?utm_medium=atlas-page&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3XlHl287M_REUUb99JTy4KmdsLLZs5r9p7-4hTgf4Kjc5e9bHjpTzQNQU

[Olefin]

there are multiple sail powered cruise ships that definitely would be impressed into service with the various navies as transports or by pirates

Example would be the Sea Cloud - https://www.seacloud.de/en/

Sea Cloud was rebuilt in 1978 to be a 64 person sailing cruise ship but during WWII she was an armed US Coast Guard weather ship - she has a diesel engine but she can cruise with sails only

You also have the Wind Star, Wind Song and Wind Spirit sail powered cruise ships (also with diesel engines but capable of cruising with the sails alone) and the Club Med 1 (which became the Wind Surf in 1998)

From the 3rd volume of the Fanzine

In November of 2000 the Wind Song, a 5300-ton sailing cruise ship sailed into Pago Pago for vitally needed repairs. The territorial governor saw an opportunity and seized the ship from its previous owners. The repairs have finally been completed in April 2001 and he intends to use the ship to sail to Hawaii to bring the two Samoan infantry companies based there home, along with ammunition and weapons to be able to defend the territory. He is planning to send a cache of vitally needed working computers and electrical parts along with it for trading for the weapons and if need be the men themselves.

The Wind Song depends on her sails for propulsion and is only being provided enough alcohol fuel to operate the galleys and a few lights. The governor has armed her with two recoilless rifles and two heavy machine guns and a single 20mm gun from the Buttonwood. Her interior furnishings have been stripped out to make room for bringing he two infantry companies back to American Samoa and to haul enough food and water for the trip which will take at least eighteen days round trip. The computers which work her sails are still functional, allowing a minimal crew to man her, with most of her complement being soldiers to man her defenses.

[Ursus Maior]

Until right now, I wasn't even aware of these sailing cruise ships. Those are quite interesting! The largest two, Club Med 1 and Club Med 2 (the latter only completed in 1996) have a gross tonnage of almost 15,000 ts and are listed having a crew of around 214 and a capacity of 340-386 passengers, mostly in twin-beds. The staterooms look easily convertible to two double-racks or even six bunks in total. If you stack up in the state rooms in such a way and reduce the crew, i. e. the steward department, you can embark a light marine battalion.

Certainly they would have to make due almost without any land vehicles, but four medium sized barges can hang from davits. Deck space is a problem though, with only a small forecastle and not much space on the quarterdeck (i. e. the stern). I really don't see room for recoilless guns without some rebuilding, to be honest, mainly since the huge back-blast would make them dangerous to operate near walls and sails. Also, the range is not great on these guns, so Bofors 40 mm in single or dual mounts may be a better alternative. Light guns up to 30 mm as well as the venerale Bofors also enjoy the benefit of not needing barbettes, i. e. they could be bolted directly on decks without punching through the construction. That makes retrofitting much easier.

One probably could raze the light structures on Star Deck - mainly a glass superstructure housing a restaurant - in order to create more deck space for crans, boats, vehicles, containers and light artillery. A great feature of both ships however is the water sports platform, which is essentially a miniature well deck/dock and can be used to disembark marines quickly for boarding parties etc. There is also room for small-craft.

The big question for these ships constructed by Société nouvelle des ateliers et chantiers du Havre will be, how there computers have weathered nuclear war. The ships cannot be sailed manually without significant modifications to the standing rigging. The masts are not meant to be climbed easily and the crew complement does not support a traditional sailing crew, without significantly reducing the number of passengers. So, if the computers are fried, e. g. by EMP, those ships become slow steamers, 10 to 12 knots with engines only, compared to 15 kn under combined (sailing and steaming) propulsion.

Deckplan: https://www.windstarcruises.com/BlankSite/media/deck-plans/Deck_plan_WindSurf_10-22-20.pdf

[Ursus Maior]

Other tall ships available during the 1990s are Sea Cloud (ex-USCGC Sea Cloud, ex-Hussar V) and SV Mandalay (ex-Hussar IV). Both ships began their lives as private yachts of E. F. Hutton of the financial services company, served in the USCG during World War Two, end ended up as cruising ships in the 70s and 80s, respectively. They are fitted for 60-80 passengers each, although Mandalay is significantly smaller (585 GRT compared to 3,077 ts), and make 14 kn (Sea Cloud) and 16 kn (Mandalay) respectively, presumably under combined propulsion.

A couple of light guns could be installed on their main decks and in fact medium artillery guns of (3"/50 DP) had been in use on Sea Cloud during World War Two. When it comes to supporting a marine complement, the two smaller ships fare far worse than Club Med 1 and 2, though: only two light davits, no (pseudo-)well deck and no larger deck space for containers, vehicles or additional barges or speed boats.

But hey, I bet the Caribbean, Polynesia and the African West Coast would tremble with fear if some of these ships with a combined marine battalion would start raiding the area.

What a great setting for a campaign.

[Olefin]

The question for the computer controlled sailing ships would be more where they were during the nuclear phase - the ones that were in the South Pacific would most likely have no EMP damage at all - no nukes in their area at all - versus ones that might have been in the Med or anywhere near Europe or places in the US that got nuked

The Wind Song that I wrote up in the fanzine was in the Pacific during the nuclear phase in Polynesia - i.e. no where near any nukes at all - so her computers work. Would be a great basis for an adventure to need to get working computer equipment for one of her sisters - they would be a real asset for anyone who had control of one of them

[Gunner]

Just want to say I love the topic.

I wish I had something to contribute, but I don't at the moment, for a variety of work and personal reasons.

As soon as I can come up with a reasonable thought / idea / adventure seed, I will!

[Targan]

maybe not. she had her keel laid in mar 97. this could be used as a propaganda tool. it also was built in the Duyfken Replica Ship Yard in Fremantle, Western Australia. It is not like this place would be working on modern warships. So she might have fight under a new flag, but she might have launched. without fuel this might force it to be finished and launched.

An added complication is that the Garden Island Naval Base (Australia's west coast submarine base) and the Kwinana fuel refinery just across the water are moderately likely nuke targets. If so, Fremantle's port facilities would likely have taken at least minor tsunami damage, if not blast damage.

But I do like the idea of the Duyfken having made it to launching.

[swaghauler]

Do NOT forget the infamous WINDJAMMER sailing fleet that stalked the Caribbean until they went bankrupt in 2006. Those four ships could carry a huge compliment of crew and passengers.

[Spartan-117]

Does this count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_Pomorza

http://harbinger.twilightwar.net/dar1.JPG
http://harbinger.twilightwar.net/dar2.JPG
http://harbinger.twilightwar.net/dar3.JPG
http://harbinger.twilightwar.net/dar4.JPG
http://harbinger.twilightwar.net/dar5.JPG
http://harbinger.twilightwar.net/dar6.JPG

[cawest]

Until right now, I wasn't even aware of these sailing cruise ships. Those are quite interesting! The largest two, Club Med 1 and Club Med 2 (the latter only completed in 1996) have a gross tonnage of almost 15,000 ts and are listed having a crew of around 214 and a capacity of 340-386 passengers, mostly in twin-beds. The staterooms look easily convertible to two double-racks or even six bunks in total. If you stack up in the state rooms in such a way and reduce the crew, i. e. the steward department, you can embark a light marine battalion.

Certainly they would have to make due almost without any land vehicles, but four medium sized barges can hang from davits. Deck space is a problem though, with only a small forecastle and not much space on the quarterdeck (i. e. the stern). I really don't see room for recoilless guns without some rebuilding, to be honest, mainly since the huge back-blast would make them dangerous to operate near walls and sails. Also, the range is not great on these guns, so Bofors 40 mm in single or dual mounts may be a better alternative. Light guns up to 30 mm as well as the venerale Bofors also enjoy the benefit of not needing barbettes, i. e. they could be bolted directly on decks without punching through the construction. That makes retrofitting much easier.

One probably could raze the light structures on Star Deck - mainly a glass superstructure housing a restaurant - in order to create more deck space for crans, boats, vehicles, containers and light artillery. A great feature of both ships however is the water sports platform, which is essentially a miniature well deck/dock and can be used to disembark marines quickly for boarding parties etc. There is also room for small-craft.

The big question for these ships constructed by Société nouvelle des ateliers et chantiers du Havre will be, how there computers have weathered nuclear war. The ships cannot be sailed manually without significant modifications to the standing rigging. The masts are not meant to be climbed easily and the crew complement does not support a traditional sailing crew, without significantly reducing the number of passengers. So, if the computers are fried, e. g. by EMP, those ships become slow steamers, 10 to 12 knots with engines only, compared to 15 kn under combined (sailing and steaming) propulsion.

Deckplan: https://www.windstarcruises.com/BlankSite/media/deck-plans/Deck_plan_WindSurf_10-22-20.pdf

how about towing barges. i remember seeing paintings of sailing ships towing light boats behind them (think it was a horse lighter)

[cawest]

An added complication is that the Garden Island Naval Base (Australia's west coast submarine base) and the Kwinana fuel refinery just across the water are moderately likely nuke targets. If so, Fremantle's port facilities would likely have taken at least minor tsunami damage, if not blast damage.

But I do like the idea of the Duyfken having made it to launching.

yea the sub base might get nuked, if it has sub pens. but they might just send in some ship/sub/air launched cruise missiles with HE/Frag warheads. or maybe a small nuke in the 10 or 15kt or even RA 115/RA 115-01. they might need the bigger boys for other targets.

have you thought about maybe writing up your idea?

[Vespers War]

Do NOT forget the infamous WINDJAMMER sailing fleet that stalked the Caribbean until they went bankrupt in 2006. Those four ships could carry a huge compliment of crew and passengers.

S/V Mandalay was originally the yacht S/V Hussar. Crew of approximately 28 and 72 passengers. It was sailing out of Grenada until this year, when COVID put it out of business (for now, at least).

S/V Yankee Clipper was the German armored yacht Cressida until captured in World War II. It's retired and permanently docked in Trinidad. 30 crew and 68 passengers.

The S/V Polynesia (formerly the Portuguese Argus and featured in National Geographic's May 1952 issue) had a crew of 45 and 116 passengers, while S/V Legacy (formerly the meteorological research vessel France II) had a crew of 43 and 122 passengers.