What areas are people interested for modules, mini-adventures and sourcebooks

[Olefin]

I wanted to put this thread up here to gather feedback for those who have been thinking about doing sourcebooks, modules or mini-adventures for those who might be interested.

For instance have been working on a Kenya sourcebook and considering after that something involving either Oceania, Vietnam, Texas, Yugoslavia or Korea or possibly more in Africa.

Very interested in hearing what there might be out there as to member's interests and desires for such ideas.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

South America, definitely - what are the Brazilians doing with that carrier of theirs?

Japan. This was basically our unsinkable PacRim aircraft carrier, so what's going on there?

Korea. A front-row seat to the beginning of the War. More troops there?

Likewise, Vietnam. Even in the early 1990s, the Vietnamese government were sending friendly overtures to the US gov't (although this was predicated on the visible crumbling of the USSR, an event that didn't happen in T2k in the 90s).

Thailand, another SEA power with an aircraft carrier (OK, basically a helo scow but still).

India. I could see them surviving in not terrible shape.

I think I've gone all the way 'round the horn now. :)

[Rainbow Six]

I seem to recall in both V1 and V2.x that India and Pakistan virtually wipe each other out in their own nuclear exchange...

Re: Thailand, there's the Bangkok sourcebook, although I can't recall how much detail that has for the rest of the country

Korea is a definite.

South Africa?

And not to mention the F word, but I'd like to see more detail on France / the Franco Belgian Union.

[rcaf_777]

I working on stuff for Canada, and I have a mini adventure where the PC try and recover the Constitution of the United States, and the Liberty Bell,

Other Adventures that I am working on, are the recovery of the US Dies of the Great Seal, and retaking a US Mint?

I also have a few TV based adventures, envoling Gilligan's Island, Andy Griffith Show, Dukes of Hazzard, and MacGyver

I have also been think about doing a Love Boat one too, but hard to plan out a good adventure, it is set in Korea.

[Matt Wiser]

Korea would be good: GDW had a Korea sourcebook planned, according to a Challenge magazine issue (1990 or '91).

Kenya: seeing something based on Frank Frey's work finally coming up.

SoCal or Central California.

[RN7]

I wanted to put this thread up here to gather feedback for those who have been thinking about doing sourcebooks, modules or mini-adventures for those who might be interested.

For instance have been working on a Kenya sourcebook and considering after that something involving either Oceania, Vietnam, Texas, Yugoslavia or Korea or possibly more in Africa.

Very interested in hearing what there might be out there as to member's interests and desires for such ideas.

Me and Rainbow Six were doing a British one but real life got in the way after we nearly finished Scotland. I'd love to participate in any other sourcebooks but like everyone time is sometimes at a premium.

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, the great uncovered and undercovered areas of the world -- Korea, the Sino-Russian front, Alaska/Yukon/British Colombia, Latin and South America, Africa -- anyone here could add to that list.

[Webstral]

India and Pakistan had their own nuclear war. Pakistan struck first. Some parts of India might be in decent shape, but northern India probably took it on the chin.

I, too, am interested in what is going on inside the Sixth US Army area of operations.

[Rainbow Six]

Me and Rainbow Six were doing a British one but real life got in the way after we nearly finished Scotland. I'd love to participate in any other sourcebooks but like everyone time is sometimes at a premium.

RN7 is being modest here by referring to what we did as a joint project...he probably did 90 - 95% of the work and came up with some great ideas. Unfortunately time is always the issue...I think I first started seriously working on my Alternative SGUK in 2008 and despite scaling down my ambitions I still haven't completed it (Marauder groups, which I'd hoped to have done for Xmas, will be next to be done - I hope to have that finished by the end of May).

[Olefin]

Korea would be good: GDW had a Korea sourcebook planned, according to a Challenge magazine issue (1990 or '91).

Kenya: seeing something based on Frank Frey's work finally coming up.

SoCal or Central California.

You will see Kenya soon - estimate I am about 70% done on a sourcebook for Kenya and the immediately surrounding area based on his work and including a few touches of my own

A question for anyone - is there any kind of legal disclaimer I need to put on it for either GDW or the current owner of Twilight 2000 and if so what?

[Olefin]

RN7 is being modest here by referring to what we did as a joint project...he probably did 90 - 95% of the work and came up with some great ideas. Unfortunately time is always the issue...I think I first started seriously working on my Alternative SGUK in 2008 and despite scaling down my ambitions I still haven't completed it (Marauder groups, which I'd hoped to have done for Xmas, will be next to be done - I hope to have that finished by the end of May).

Rainbow I love the work you two have done on that project - I cant wait to see that finally released - frankly I consider it a much better work than the official GDW work - to the point that it may be what should be used as canon

Its a great work (Rainbow sent me a link to it) and I highly recommend it

[Rainbow Six]

Rainbow I love the work you two have done on that project - I cant wait to see that finally released - frankly I consider it a much better work than the official GDW work - to the point that it may be what should be used as canon

Its a great work (Rainbow sent me a link to it) and I highly recommend it

Thanks Olefin - appreciate that.

Just to clarify, the work that RN7 and I did (and as noted, RN7 did the lion's share of) was an expansion of the material that I originally posted. It runs to around twenty odd pages / 13,000 words, around 75 - 80% of which is new material which hasn't been posted to the forum.

[Olefin]

My current plans are to create and release a Kenyan sourcebook that will cover much of East Africa as well and then possibly do a mini-adventure in that area as well, looking at a rewrite of City of Angels, some mini-adventures based on Lone Star, Red Star and also looking at Papua New Guinea and the war between Indonesia and Australia

Hopign to get Kenya done and ready by the end of May.

[James Langham]

I'm looking at the Indonesia/Australia conflict and would more than welcome any help. Not one of my priority projects but I can bump it up.

My current plans are to create and release a Kenyan sourcebook that will cover much of East Africa as well and then possibly do a mini-adventure in that area as well, looking at a rewrite of City of Angels, some mini-adventures based on Lone Star, Red Star and also looking at Papua New Guinea and the war between Indonesia and Australia

Hopign to get Kenya done and ready by the end of May.

[Olefin]

Love to help and very interested in doing so. If you tell me I can see what I can put together for you. Always love to see new material come out on games I play.

[Trooper]

Arabian peninsula, California and Nordic countries.

(Well now its time drink heavily, while wearing white cap. You know its drinking day over here...):confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night

[Olefin]

Arabian peninsula is a good one - I was actually surprised when I re-read the RDF once i owned it that Oman isnt mentioned in any of the forces there. They are definitely pro-US but they were totally forgotten.

And Yemen would be a great troublemaker for the French and Saudis to have to deal with.

Thanks!

[boogiedowndonovan]

Africa...not just Kenya which has seen plenty of input so far but the entire continent.

Lots of countries that most Americans have never heard of before or even find on a map. Also lots of ethnic groups that most Americans have never heard of or seen outside of a National Geographic magazine. And a lot of these countries are situated on natural resources that most of the developed world wants and needs.

in regards to a disclaimer, if you are worried about it, you might want to check out the Far Future fair use policy: http://www.farfuture.net/FFEFairUsePolicy2008.pdf

(sorry link thingamajig isn't working, got an error message, Kato?)

Far Future is the current owner of T2k. You can also contacting them at Far Future Enterprises, 1418 N Clinton Blvd, Bloomington, IL 61701 USA.
Email: farfuture@gmail.com.

You can also take a look at chico's site, he's got the disclaimer listed in the pdf but substitute Twilight 2000 for Traveller.

-bdd

[Legbreaker]

I'm looking at the Indonesia/Australia conflict and would more than welcome any help.

Before doing anything, it's worth reading up on the WWII experiences of the Australians in PNG, in particular the Kokoda campaign. The terrain is absolutely ABYSMAL and without air support nearly impossible to operate in.
With the lack of roads in the region, movement by foot is the only option once aircraft, helicopters in particular are out of the picture. Therefore, with the much heavier loads of soldiers in the late 90's compared to 1942, offensive operations are extremely unlikely.

[Olefin]

Africa...not just Kenya which has seen plenty of input so far but the entire continent.

Lots of countries that most Americans have never heard of before or even find on a map. Also lots of ethnic groups that most Americans have never heard of or seen outside of a National Geographic magazine. And a lot of these countries are situated on natural resources that most of the developed world wants and needs.

in regards to a disclaimer, if you are worried about it, you might want to check out the Far Future fair use policy: http://www.farfuture.net/FFEFairUsePolicy2008.pdf

(sorry link thingamajig isn't working, got an error message, Kato?)

Far Future is the current owner of T2k. You can also contacting them at Far Future Enterprises, 1418 N Clinton Blvd, Bloomington, IL 61701 USA.
Email: farfuture@gmail.com.

You can also take a look at chico's site, he's got the disclaimer listed in the pdf but substitute Twilight 2000 for Traveller.

-bdd

Thank you very much BDD - that was exactly the info that I was looking for as to the permissions I need to put up with anything I publish! Defintely not looking to get into any legal trouble at all. I may even submit what I do to Far Future first and see if they are interested in it as an offical submission - hey a guy can dream cant he?

So you know what I am putting together on Kenya will have info on all the surrounding countries around it (i.e. Tanzania, Rwanda, etc..) with the intention of possibly doing more sourcebooks as well. It will be a blend of T2000 with some events from the real timeline brought in as well.

[Olefin]

Before doing anything, it's worth reading up on the WWII experiences of the Australians in PNG, in particular the Kokoda campaign. The terrain is absolutely ABYSMAL and without air support nearly impossible to operate in.
With the lack of roads in the region, movement by foot is the only option once aircraft, helicopters in particular are out of the picture. Therefore, with the much heavier loads of soldiers in the late 90's compared to 1942, offensive operations are extremely unlikely.

Actually you would see helos and the such in that war Leg - at least in the beginning and even now but in very limited numbers (Australia most likely still has some oil production going just not as much as before) most likely due to lack of spare parts to keep the helos going.

I do think offensive operations can be done - but that most of them will be either seaborne around the periphery or by light infantry and Special Ops types or using native troops who operate with lighter loads.

And if your load is too heavy - well then you find out what you dont need and what you do. (Think the scene at the beginning of Platoon where Charlie Sheen gets told to dump a lot of unnecessary equipment before he goes out on patrol)

[TicToc]

I'm
Interested in anything based in the US. Something like perhaps regional sourcebooks if that makes sense.

In addition if anyone had scenarios or other materials for a US campaign I'd be happy to receive them.

[Olefin]

TicToc - regional sourcebooks conforming to Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped or ones that are based without the drought? Just wondering as there are those who lean both ways on the board and trying to see what people are looking for.

[Legbreaker]

And if your load is too heavy - well then you find out what you dont need and what you do. (Think the scene at the beginning of Platoon where Charlie Sheen gets told to dump a lot of unnecessary equipment before he goes out on patrol)

Once again, I suggest actually doing a little research on the terrain and military history of the region before making sweeping and uneducated statements.
We're not talking about short ranged patrols of a day or two by a relatively small unit, but long term operations of weeks and months by battalions and brigades.

The 39th Battalion commenced operations in July 1942 with approximately 700 men of all ranks. They were supported by approximately 1,000 native carriers over upwards of 60 miles of mountainous terrain with no roads - only a single track which in places required climbing up and down on hands and knees while enduring near monsoonal rains.
Following Japan’s sudden entry into the Second World War, a new 39th was raised as part of the 30th Brigade to garrison Port Moresby. The 39th joined the 49th Infantry Battalion, already in Moresby, and the 53rd Infantry Battalion, which had been quickly formed in Sydney. The 39th arrived in Moresby at the start of January 1942, with little military training.

The 39th was initially used for garrison duties and working parties. In June it was ordered to proceed up the Kokoda Trail to block any possible Japanese overland advance. The 39th B Company and troops from the Papuan Infantry Battalion (PIB) reached Kokoda on 15 July. Japanese forces landed at Gona, on the north coast of Papua, a week later and quickly moved inland.

The first clash occurred at Awala on 23 July and the Australians fell back to Kokoda. On 29 July the Japanese attacked Kokoda and the Australians were forced to withdraw to Deniki early the next morning. On 8 August the 39th launched a counter-attack at Kokoda but, outnumbered and short of ammunition, fell back to Deniki after two days of fighting. The Australians eventually managed to repel the ongoing Japanese attack and on 14 August the 39th and PIB fell back to Isurava.

Fighting ceased for almost two weeks. During this time the 39th was joined by the 53rd and the headquarters of the 30th Brigade. On 23 August the 2/14th and 2/16th Battalions from the 7th Division 21st Brigade also reached the area. The Japanese resumed their advance on 26 August. Despite hard fighting the Australians were forced back to Eora Creek on 30 August, Templeton's Crossing on 2 September, and Efogi three days later.

Exhausted, the 39th was relieved and sent down the track to Koitaki to rest. The 7th Division 25th Brigade (comprising the 3rd Infantry Battalion and the 2/1st Pioneer Battalion) came in to reinforce the Australian effort. Bitter fighting ensued and the Australians withdrew to Imita Ridge on 17 September. However, the Japanese had reached their limit and on 24 September began to withdrawal. The Australians reoccupied Kokoda on 2 November.

Meanwhile, after a month at Koitaki, the 39th returned to Port Moresby in mid-October, where it prepared defensive positions at Pyramid Point. The interlude from fighting was brief.

Having pushed the Japanese back across the Kokoda Trail, the 16th and 25th Brigades and two inexperienced American regiments were engaged in the “battle of the beachheads” at Buna, Gona, and Sanananda. The Japanese positions were well-prepared and heavily defended. At the end of November the 30th Brigade was flown across the Owen Stanley’s to reinforce the attack. The 39th became attached to the 21st Brigade.

The 21st Brigade captured Gona village on 1 December and the Japanese withdrew to Gona Mission. The Australians advanced on the Mission on 6 December but were stopped by the Japanese. The 39th D Company was “literally shot to pieces”. The combined fighting strength of the 21st Brigade was now down to 755 men, of whom 403 were from the 39th. Nonetheless, on 8 December the 39th attacked again and captured half of the Japanese defences by nightfall. Gona Mission was captured the next day and on 18 December the 39th took the last Japanese position at the creek west of Gona.

Fierce fighting continued further along the coast and on 21 December the 21st Brigade and 39th moved to the Sanananda Track. The next morning the 39th moved into a forward position called Huggins’ Road Block. The 39th defended the area and attacked nearby Japanese positions. In the New Year it withdrew to Soputa and returned to the 30th Brigade.

The 39th had suffered heavily. When the battalion was flown to Moresby on 25 January it mustered a mere handful of soldiers - 7 officers and 25 men. It rested at Morseby and gradually gained strength as men returned from hospital.

It's worth noting the logistical situation in 1942 was very similar to that likely in T2K - the Australians only had the native carriers (who needed to eat nearly their entire load capacity) and two (2) Dakota aircraft which were only able to sortie on average twice a day due to weather conditions in the mountains. Even when they could fly, there was only one suitable drop zone and once Kokoda was lost early on, no landing strips. ALL casualties had to endure a week or more of being carried along the extremely difficult track before they could receive anything more than first aid (if that).

A list of suggested reading can be found here: http://www.39battalion.org/Books.pdf

[Olefin]

"Once again, I suggest actually doing a little research on the terrain and military history of the region before making sweeping and uneducated statements.
We're not talking about short ranged patrols of a day or two by a relatively small unit, but long term operations of weeks and months by battalions and brigades."

First off you have not said that to me before

Second insults wont get you anywhere

Third I was referring basically to patrol like short offensives by small units or Special Forces - not a long term sustained one.

[Bullet Magnet]

One area I haven't seen mentioned is southern Europe. We know from the original timeline the Greeks (with Italian support? I'm not sure on this) were duking it out with the Turks. I'm sure something could be done with that.
I never cared for the idea that the Italians would strike through neutral Austria to get at the Germans. It just didn't make sense to me.
Also, what about Spain and Portugal? I don't think I even saw those two nations mentioned in any T2K product.

Now my thoughts are expanding to the whole Mediterranean region. The eastern part might fit in with an expansion to the RDF Sourcebook: Israel, Syria, etc.

Someone mentioned South America; perhaps Central America as well. I'm sure in the T2K world, there's plenty of action going on there.
Also, Gateway to the Spanish Main could be expanded on, into a Caribbean Sourcebook.

I could go on but hell, I'd end up just listing every region on the planet ultimately then.

[boogiedowndonovan]

this thread is starting to go down the road we've seen before. Let's chill out everyone.

One area I haven't seen mentioned is southern Europe. We know from the original timeline the Greeks (with Italian support? I'm not sure on this) were duking it out with the Turks. I'm sure something could be done with that.
I never cared for the idea that the Italians would strike through neutral Austria to get at the Germans. It just didn't make sense to me.
Also, what about Spain and Portugal? I don't think I even saw those two nations mentioned in any T2K product.

Now my thoughts are expanding to the whole Mediterranean region. The eastern part might fit in with an expansion to the RDF Sourcebook: Israel, Syria, etc.

Someone mentioned South America; perhaps Central America as well. I'm sure in the T2K world, there's plenty of action going on there.
Also, Gateway to the Spanish Main could be expanded on, into a Caribbean Sourcebook.

I could go on but hell, I'd end up just listing every region on the planet ultimately then.

I'm with you on listing every region of the planet. Antartica anyone???

On a serious note, the Med does get some treatement in the Last Sub series. The second module in that is titled "Mediterranean Cruise" but it doesn't go into a lot of detail about Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Turkey or Libya and Gibraltar (characters make stops in Libya and Gibraltar)

The Big Yellow Book (2.x) has paragraphs on Spain, Portugal, Italy and Turkey. I haven't memorized them and I'm at work but someone with access to the Big Yellow Book can elaborate.

[Olefin]

Med Cruise has some very general info on Spain, Greece and Libya and Romania, basically enough to make a very rough outline and not much more.

One thing I will try to do is what is happening in Yugoslavia - the only intact US Army in Europe is still there, 3 divisions worth of men. And the canon, besides what little is mentioned in the timeline and in the US Vehicle Guide is largely silent there (and I dont count the Eastern European Sourcebook - it is full of misinformation)

[Olefin]

Wanted to bring this thread back to life now that new material is finally being added to the Twilight 2000 canon

Marc Miller definitely is looking for more canon releases for Twilight 2000 now that the East Africa Sourcebook has been released in order to keep expanding and adding to the canon - I am definitely looking for ideas that people are interested in for follow ups - have a few of my own that I am already working on

[Matt Wiser]

Naval (got some ideas there), Korea, California (You'd have to split it up into NorCal and SoCal), maybe an Air Force one for the USAF, another for the USMC (covered in U.S. Army Vehicle Guide, but....).

[lordroel]

I had a idea about CivGov sending the CIA to toppling Liberian president Charles Taylor, setting up shop there and create Air Africa (a CIA air unit) and the Special Activities Division Africa (SADA) among others who operate against Soviet and MilGov forces in Africa.

Example of this could be:

A paramilitary team belonging to CIA Special Activities Division Africa (SADA) operating out of Liberia enters the neighboring country of Guinea to hunt renaming Soviet forces who had survived the United States nuclear attack on the Soviet air and naval bases in Conakry,Guinea.

[unkated]

I keep tinkering my way through a Caribbean Sourcebook.

I have also been working on one for the (mostly ex-)Crowned Heads of Europe - the monarchs or pretenders to all thrones of Europe and their heirs. Includes a brief history of the monarchies and usually how they became ex. In these T2K times of uncertainly, might not a king be better than shadowy ideologues? Can you not trust the King of Spain to look out for all of Spain?

Includes Britain, Scotland, Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany (Hanover, Bavaria and Prussia), Austria, Hungary, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Rumania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, and Italy.

Uncle Ted

[Ewan]

Korea, China, India, Pakistan all seem good possibilities.

[lordroel]

I keep tinkering my way through a Caribbean Sourcebook.



That is nice.

[Draq]

Korea, China, India, Pakistan all seem good possibilities.
Yes. China-korea-japan, india-pakistan-afghan, west germany-france-belgium-spain-portugal, italy-greece-turkey-yugoslavia, an English translation of the Scandinavian sourcebook, central and south America with a focus on brazil, South Africa and surrounding area, Australia-new zealand-southeast asia-pacific islands.

[unkated]

Yes. China-korea-japan, india-pakistan-afghan, west germany-france-belgium-spain-portugal, italy-greece-turkey-yugoslavia, an English translation of the Scandinavian sourcebook, central and south America with a focus on brazil, South Africa and surrounding area, Australia-new zealand-southeast asia-pacific islands.

There is a translation of several pieces of the (Finn) Scandinavian Sourcebook. Search this forum; it's in three pieces. I'll post what I put together.

[RN7]

There is a lot of T2K information about North America, the Middle East and quite a few European countries from GDW sources and quite a few alternative write-ups.

Areas that could do with some expansion is probably down to the individual and what they are interested in.

For me I would like to see more information on the Soviet Union, China, France, the Korea's and Japan. Other regions of interest to me would be Australia/New Zealand and the Pacific islands, the Caribbean and South Africa. Also I would like to see more information about naval warfare.

About 12 years ago I put up a T2K writeup about France on one of the 2300ad sites and got a lot of stick for it. I've been tinkering with a German sourcebook for years and have large chunks of it completed but am always re-writing it and changing thinks. It may never be completed.

[cawest]

I would like to see South Africa, Australia/New Zealand. it also would be nice to see some Gun trains. like that use the Boar war, or Late WW2 German and Russian

[Jason Weiser]

I got some ideas that I am going to bounce off Olefin. They were written when I was a kid, but now I think I can do a lot better with it. And there is another one that came to mind with regards to a certain piece of American History.

[Olefin]

South Africa is at least partially covered by my sourcebook as to how it got involved in the Twilght War but there is still lots there to cover. The nuke attacks on it and how they replied, their involvement in thr Great War of Africa, how they drove the Cubans out of Angola and that they invaded Namibia and Zimbabwe are part of the canon now. But that leaves a lot left over to describe and write about still.

[cawest]

South Africa is at least partially covered by my sourcebook as to how it got involved in the Twilght War but there is still lots there to cover. The nuke attacks on it and how they replied, their involvement in thr Great War of Africa, how they drove the Cubans out of Angola and that they invaded Namibia and Zimbabwe are part of the canon now. But that leaves a lot left over to describe and write about still.


If the whole world was in a shooting war.. what would be great to cover, is what were they doing or collecting while they were natural. they had a few year (?) of watching and and maybe learning learning. beside how many damaged ships and planes would divert to SA. were they "interred" or returned to there owners. think about about it. a Tango class sub or November takes damage attacking a convoy and limps into Cape Town or Port Elizabeth what do you do. both sides would want it badly....Now this just struck me? how big of a city can that reactor power?

[Olefin]

remember the South Africans are playing both sides of the street - i.e. they are a US ally but they also are courting the French as well - meaning they joined the US in the war only because the Soviets nuked their refineries - so it was more like the enemy of my enemy is my friend - but they also know that the French are the up and coming power for sure and that the US is on the wane, at least for now

[lordroel]

remember the South Africans are playing both sides of the street - i.e. they are a US ally but they also are courting the French as well - meaning they joined the US in the war only because the Soviets nuked their refineries - so it was more like the enemy of my enemy is my friend - but they also know that the French are the up and coming power for sure and that the US is on the wane, at least for now

So has South Africa truly ended Apartheid, ore is it only for show.

[RN7]

So has South Africa truly ended Apartheid, ore is it only for show.

In the Twilight War I doubt it. More likely its worse than ever as the pro-Apartheid White and likeminded South African population will be armed to the teeth and not a bit worried about world opinion as most of the rest of the world is a lot worse off than South Africa.

[Olefin]

Actually they ended it because of the war - they were already moving towards ending it before the war but the shock of the nuclear strikes on the country and the realization of how Africa's nations were falling apart showed the white leaders of the country that they had two choices - keep it going and watch South Africa descend into total chaos as so many other nations had or end it in the name of national unity and survival. And with the world falling apart the argument for ending it was very persuasive indeed.

[mpipes]

The Asian front - the Koreas, China, Taiwan, and Japan. Maybe cover Phillipines and up into the USSR on the Arctic.

[RN7]

Actually they ended it because of the war - they were already moving towards ending it before the war but the shock of the nuclear strikes on the country and the realization of how Africa's nations were falling apart showed the white leaders of the country that they had two choices - keep it going and watch South Africa descend into total chaos as so many other nations had or end it in the name of national unity and survival. And with the world falling apart the argument for ending it was very persuasive indeed.


I don't see this happening in the Twilight War timeline for a number of reasons.

South Africa at this time was actually very self sufficient and very wealthy. The UN embargo worked both ways, the world wanted South African gold, diamonds and rare metals. What the South Africans couldn't make or produce themselves they found ways to obtain through various means. They also built up links with other isolated countries in the world, notably Israel.

The South African armed forces was also by far the most powerful and best trained in the whole of Africa. They could have taken on a dozen other African countries and held their territory or even beaten them. All of the African countries who had bad relations with South Africa were dependent on military aid, notably from the Soviet Union and other East Bloc countries. South Africa wasn't dependent on anyone.

South Africa's white population was very militarised, far more so than any other Western culture. The South African military (excluding the air force and navy) had only 20,000 volunteer troops. But the white male population was required to do 12 months in the military, which added over 40,000 troops every year. They were then requited to serve part time for another 12 years with the Citizen Force which gave the South African military a reserve of nearly 400,000 men at any time. Another 300,000 older men were also available through voluntary para-military service with the Active Citizen Force Reserve and the Home Defence Commandos. White South African males were generally armed, knew how to use weapons, were military trained and were familiar with military tactics. This was especially so with White Afrikaners who were very nationalist and pro-apartheid, and made up the majority of the 170 Home Defence Commando battalions.

The Apartheid system never actually broke down even when the entire world condemned it, and did its best to sanction the South African government. It only ended when the South African white government ended it. Within South Africa the black anti-apartheid movement was actually quite weak in comparison to rebel movements in other African or Third World countries. The ANC had more power outside of South Africa. The Black population also feared the South African security services who had a ruthless reputation, and they feared white retaliation against them even more.

[ArmySGT.]

Soviet Far East, Kamchatsky Oblast, Sakhalin islands, Aleutian islands, Alaska, Canadian provinces of the Yukon and British Columbia, and the Pacific Northwest.

Vladivost, Petropavlovsk, Yakutsk, Amur, Sakhalin islands, Adak island (CG and AF), Dutch Harbor, Nome, The DEW line, Ft. Richardson, Ft Wainright, Elmendorf Airforce base, Eielson Air force base, Clear Air station, Ft Lewis, McChord Air force base, Naval Station Whidbey island, Naval Base Kitsap, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, Naval Submarine Base Bangor, Naval Station Everett, Fairchild Air Force Base, Coast Guard Station Cape Disappointment, Camp Rilea Oregon, Coast Guard Air Station Astoria, Coast Guard Air Station North Bend, Kingsley Field Air National Guard Base, Umatilla Chemical Depot.

[Olefin]

It was the shock of the nuclear attacks and the effect on the country that made South Africa change. They lost two cities and the riots afterward caused a lot of deaths as people panicked thinking more were coming. They knew the needed unity or they were not going to be able to hold things together - especially if more nuclear attacks occurred. Conventional attack alone wouldn't have done it - I agree with you there - but seeing the destruction in the US and seeing how China fell apart under nuclear attack made them make a choice they would not have made elsewise.

And keep in mind - outside of Kenya and Rwanda and areas under French control they have seen Africa fall completely apart. Facing that reality they know how much of a target they are - and that they can't keep the country safe while
at the same time repressing the majority of the population

[RN7]

It was the shock of the nuclear attacks and the effect on the country that made South Africa change. They lost two cities and the riots afterward caused a lot of deaths as people panicked thinking more were coming. They knew the needed unity or they were not going to be able to hold things together - especially if more nuclear attacks occurred. Conventional attack alone wouldn't have done it - I agree with you there - but seeing the destruction in the US and seeing how China fell apart under nuclear attack made them make a choice they would not have made elsewise.

A nuclear attack on South African cities would probably have impacted the non-white population more as South African whites generally lived in suburbs, small towns and rural areas. This is particularly the case with the Afrikaners who's culture was much more rural based and many of them idolised their past conflicts in South Africa with the blacks and the British during the Boer War. The Afrikaners also generally didn't care for more liberal Anglo-whites to much and had their own sort of parallel society within South Africa. Think loads of belligerent rednecks with loads of guns and military hardware, and loads of 4X4 s and horses. They made up nearly 70% of South Africa's six million white population.

Also South Africa was a para-military state., and a very effective one. They were well prepared for all scenarios due to having a siege mentality, including military invasion and uprisings by the blacks. The white government controlled everything, including power, fuel, water and food supply. South Africa actually became a lot more dangerous as regards to crime and riotous behaviour after the end of white rule, as the black population before the end of apartheid was fairly well behaved considering their lot due the threat of security clamp downs and white retaliation.

And keep in mind - outside of Kenya and Rwanda and areas under French control they have seen Africa fall completely apart. Facing that reality they know how much of a target they are - and that they can't keep the country safe while at the same time repressing the majority of the population

Well that would imply to the South Africans that the only stable parts of Africa are those under the control of Western militaries; France and America. So why would they want to hand over power to black Africans who have let their countries fall apart completely everywhere else in Africa?

Also no other African country is now a major military threat to South Africa, not even a combination of them, as the Soviet Union is in no position to support them. So who's going to invade South Africa or supply arms to South African blacks with the South African military and para-military forces fully mobilised?.

[cawest]

A nuclear attack on South African cities would probably have impacted the non-white population more as South African whites generally lived in suburbs, small towns and rural areas. This is particularly the case with the Afrikaners who's culture was much more rural based and many of them idolised their past conflicts in South Africa with the blacks and the British during the Boer War. The Afrikaners also generally didn't care for more liberal Anglo-whites to much and had their own sort of parallel society within South Africa. Think loads of belligerent rednecks with loads of guns and military hardware, and loads of 4X4 s and horses. They made up nearly 70% of South Africa's six million white population.

Also South Africa was a para-military state., and a very effective one. They were well prepared for all scenarios due to having a siege mentality, including military invasion and uprisings by the blacks. The white government controlled everything, including power, fuel, water and food supply. South Africa actually became a lot more dangerous as regards to crime and riotous behaviour after the end of white rule, as the black population before the end of apartheid was fairly well behaved considering their lot due the threat of security clamp downs and white retaliation.



Well that would imply to the South Africans that the only stable parts of Africa are those under the control of Western militaries; France and America. So why would they want to hand over power to black Africans who have let their countries fall apart completely everywhere else in Africa?

Also no other African country is now a major military threat to South Africa, not even a combination of them, as the Soviet Union is in no position to support them. So who's going to invade South Africa or supply arms to South African blacks with the South African military and para-military forces fully mobilised?.

Not wanting to cause a problem but you know that apartheid ended in 1994 right? it had been on its way out when Nelson Mandela was freed in 1990. by the time nuks started to fly in 97 they would have had about 2.5 years to settle down before the things went down hill. edit.. just found this. . A new constitution, which enfranchised blacks and other racial groups, took effect in 1994, and elections that year led to a coalition government with a nonwhite majority, marking the official end of the apartheid system.

[Olefin]

I was looking at the situation in South Africa with the Soviets still in play in Africa and not where they collapsed like they did in our world - thus apartheid is still alive and well when the war broke out. Remember I am using the existing canon and then embellishing it with real world events.

In the canon the Cubans finally pulled out of Angola in August 2000 and that was because they got defeated by a coalition of the South Africans and UNITA -that is established in Gateway to the Spanish Main (its the reason the Cubans were stranded in Grenada - their ship got torpedoed on the way home and they barely made it to shore with their personal weapons and ammo). In the real world the Cubans pulled out Angola starting in 1989 and were completely gone by 1991 - and it was done by accord and treaty not by a military defeat.

Thus while I have included a modified Great War of Africa and the Rwandan genocides (real world events) I have also changed the history to match the canon (i.e. the Cubans getting driven out of Angola in 2000 by military force) so that the sourcebook will work with canon events and modules.

Without the Cold War ending as it did in our world South Africa does not come under the same level of pressure due to geopolitical concerns as it did in our world - and thus it stays in place longer. Thus Mandela gets released later than he did in our world and apartheid ends in 1998, not 1994.

Thus apartheid does come to an end in South Africa during the war - it was beginning to come to an end any way - the nuclear attacks only made it happen much sooner because the country needed to unite to survive the Twilight War.

Now if this had been written for the 2013 timeline things would have been different - but it was written for the V1/V2 timelines (it actually can work in either)

[Olefin]

A nuclear attack on South African cities would probably have impacted the non-white population more as South African whites generally lived in suburbs, small towns and rural areas. This is particularly the case with the Afrikaners who's culture was much more rural based and many of them idolised their past conflicts in South Africa with the blacks and the British during the Boer War. The Afrikaners also generally didn't care for more liberal Anglo-whites to much and had their own sort of parallel society within South Africa. Think loads of belligerent rednecks with loads of guns and military hardware, and loads of 4X4 s and horses. They made up nearly 70% of South Africa's six million white population.

Also South Africa was a para-military state., and a very effective one. They were well prepared for all scenarios due to having a siege mentality, including military invasion and uprisings by the blacks. The white government controlled everything, including power, fuel, water and food supply. South Africa actually became a lot more dangerous as regards to crime and riotous behaviour after the end of white rule, as the black population before the end of apartheid was fairly well behaved considering their lot due the threat of security clamp downs and white retaliation.



Well that would imply to the South Africans that the only stable parts of Africa are those under the control of Western militaries; France and America. So why would they want to hand over power to black Africans who have let their countries fall apart completely everywhere else in Africa?

Also no other African country is now a major military threat to South Africa, not even a combination of them, as the Soviet Union is in no position to support them. So who's going to invade South Africa or supply arms to South African blacks with the South African military and para-military forces fully mobilised?.

The other countries didnt just fall apart because they were run by blacks - and that statement of mine also applies to the countries above the Sahara which are definitely not black - i.e. Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, etc..

They fell apart either due to nuclear attacks (Nigeria, Guinea, Mozambique, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Ivory Coast) or because of wars and fighting (Congo, Tanzania, Comoros, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia) or because of the lack of oil and the world economy coming apart and the end of economic and food aid (pretty much everywhere else).

The only places that maintained any real cohesiveness were Rwanda (very effective military - i.e. the Israelis of Africa), Kenya (with a lot of help from the US military forces that just barely managed to get there in time), Uganda (which is now starting to come apart because of the LRA and its death squads and Kony basically thinking he is God), and the areas that the French control (which include Djibouti and Senegal and the French Comoros Islands which are now part of the French Union) - otherwise by April 2001 the continent is in a shambles

An example would be the Central African Republic - that country has completely fallen apart - outside of the capital city there is no government at all

Oh and they didnt hand power over to the blacks - South Africa still considers itself at war and the government is a coalition of blacks and white, each with equal power - its not one man, one vote like in our world - true democracy and actual black rule of South Africa will still be quite a ways in the future

As to the Soviets - they set off rebellions and guerrilla movements all across the continent including in South Africa in 1995 to distract from their invasion of China and then nuked two of their cities in 1997 so they would have still been seen as a big threat in 1998

Thus the South African whites saw that the only way to keep the country strong in the face of threats both external and internal was to do the coalition 50/50 government - thus the whites still have power, but now its shared with the blacks

[RN7]

Not wanting to cause a problem but you know that apartheid ended in 1994 right? it had been on its way out when Nelson Mandela was freed in 1990. by the time nuks started to fly in 97 they would have had about 2.5 years to settle down before the things went down hill. edit.. just found this. . A new constitution, which enfranchised blacks and other racial groups, took effect in 1994, and elections that year led to a coalition government with a nonwhite majority, marking the official end of the apartheid system.

Thanks for sharing that with me but I was aware of that, but it didn't happen in the Twilight War timeline at least not in V1. And why would Olefin and I be talking about how the white South African government would come to terms with its black majority if all of this happens?

[RN7]

The other countries didnt just fall apart because they were run by blacks - and that statement of mine also applies to the countries above the Sahara which are definitely not black - i.e. Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, etc.

I wasn't implying that, but all sub-Saharan countries in Africa have black governments and all pretty much collapsed outside of those countries supported by France and the US. And North Africa is basically Arab Muslim and has a very different culture to the rest of Africa.

They fell apart either due to nuclear attacks (Nigeria, Guinea, Mozambique, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Ivory Coast) or because of wars and fighting (Congo, Tanzania, Comoros, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia) or because of the lack of oil and the world economy coming apart and the end of economic and food aid (pretty much everywhere else).

They likely also fell apart due to having appalling corrupt governments, rampant disease and famine and numerous insurrections.

The only places that maintained any real cohesiveness were Rwanda (very effective military - i.e. the Israelis of Africa), Kenya (with a lot of help from the US military forces that just barely managed to get there in time), Uganda (which is now starting to come apart because of the LRA and its death squads and Kony basically thinking he is God), and the areas that the French control (which include Djibouti and Senegal and the French Comoros Islands which are now part of the French Union) - otherwise by April 2001 the continent is in a shambles.

An example would be the Central African Republic - that country has completely fallen apart - outside of the capital city there is no government at all.

Exactly

Oh and they didnt hand power over to the blacks - South Africa still considers itself at war and the government is a coalition of blacks and white, each with equal power - its not one man, one vote like in our world - true democracy and actual black rule of South Africa will still be quite a ways in the future.

I don't see any reason why they would have to, and I don't see the Afrikaners doing that willingly. Also the South African governemnt created ten self-governing homeland territories for Blacks within South Africa known as Bantustan's in the 1970's (Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Ganzankulu, Lebowa, KaNgwane, KwaNdebele, KwaZulu, QwaQwa, Transkei and Venda). South Africa considered Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Transkei and Venda to be nominal independent states within South Africa with their own armed forces (para-military forces) with light armoured vehicles, armoured personnel carriers, infantry support weapons and helicopters, although they were closely monitored by the South African military. The South African armed forces also included over 5,000 volunteer black personnel in the ranks of the full time army which only had 19,900 personnel, and another 2,500 were coloured South Africans. However only whites were drafted for national service with the Citizen Force.

As to the Soviets - they set off rebellions and guerrilla movements all across the continent including in South Africa in 1995 to distract from their invasion of China and then nuked two of their cities in 1997 so they would have still been seen as a big threat in 1998.

I wouldn't rate the chances of black guerrilla movements within South African territory to highly. The South Africans were very effective at disrupting and supressing black rebellion and communist activity within South Africa, and were also very proactive at tackling anti-South African guerrillas and movements in places such as Angola and other countries to the north. They frequently used black South African troops to impersonate guerrillas to infiltrate the organisations, and used white special forces troops to impersonate Soviet and East German advisors. And this was before the full mobilisation of South African forces.

Thus the South African whites saw that the only way to keep the country strong in the face of threats both external and internal was to do the coalition 50/50 government - thus the whites still have power, but now its shared with the blacks

I could see them granting some concessions to blacks such as expanding the territory of the Bantustans and giving them a token presence in the government. But I don't see them being allowed to control the economy or armed forces, as it would likely lead to an Afrikaner coup d'état. More likely the South African government would play on the rivalries that existed within South African black societies, notably Zulus versus Bantu's .

[Olefin]

Thats why a book on South Africa would be a good idea - to expand what happened and give those kind of details - the South Africans are mentioned in the East Africa Sourcebook but in a peripheral way - i.e. how they affected East Africa and the US/Kenyan/French/Rwandan forces there - but the actual nitty gritty of how they went thru the Twilight War still needs to be expanded

There are now canon details that can be greatly expanded

The South Africans were attacked by two nuclear strikes by the Soviets in 1997

The South Africans struck back using their limited nuclear capacity against the Soviets and their Allies a few days later

They still have a few nuclear bombs and the US is helping them produce more bombs in return for some military equipment and supplies for AFRICOM

They are US allies against the Soviets but also are staying on friendly terms with the French as well

The South Africans ended apartheid and have given the blacks equal power with them in the government but not one man one vote - meaning its more like a divided government between the two groups

The South Africans invaded and took over choice areas in Zimbabwe and Namibia as part of ending the Great war and are still occupying those areas

The South Africans drove the Cubans out of Angola in 2000 along with UNITA (canon event mentioned in Gateway to the Spanish Main)

[lordroel]

They still have a few nuclear bombs and the US is helping them produce more bombs in return for some military equipment and supplies for AFRICOM

They are US allies against the Soviets but also are staying on friendly terms with the French as well



You mean only friendly to MilGov and not CivGov.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think that the one I'd like to see the most is a Korea Sourcebook -- something I tried to write when I was in the Army but I've lost all the notes for. My second choice would be a Sourcebook for the Occupation of San Antonio -- something else I started writing in the Army, but lost the notes for. (There were two boxes that didn't arrive from Ft Bragg when I got home from the Army; they had a lot of valuable books, notes, and games in them. My guess on its value was about $500 at the time; the Army in its infinite wisdom gave me fifty.)

[Olefin]

I think that the one I'd like to see the most is a Korea Sourcebook -- something I tried to write when I was in the Army but I've lost all the notes for. My second choice would be a Sourcebook for the Occupation of San Antonio -- something else I started writing in the Army, but lost the notes for. (There were two boxes that didn't arrive from Ft Bragg when I got home from the Army; they had a lot of valuable books, notes, and games in them. My guess on its value was about $500 at the time; the Army in its infinite wisdom gave me fifty.)

Sorry to hear that - and would love to do a Korea sourcebook- I agree with you there that its definitely an area that needs more details - especially as there is a lot of the US Army and Marine Corps deployed there

[Olefin]

I think that the one I'd like to see the most is a Korea Sourcebook -- something I tried to write when I was in the Army but I've lost all the notes for. My second choice would be a Sourcebook for the Occupation of San Antonio -- something else I started writing in the Army, but lost the notes for. (There were two boxes that didn't arrive from Ft Bragg when I got home from the Army; they had a lot of valuable books, notes, and games in them. My guess on its value was about $500 at the time; the Army in its infinite wisdom gave me fifty.)

FYI Paul - did you see the credit I gave your site in the Sourcebook?

[cawest]

if anyone needs info.. I have a copy of jane's Warsaw pact merchant ships recognition handbook from 1987. its not the easiest book to use but it has lots of info.

[The Dark]

One I've kicked around doing a few times was a Key West sourcebook. Urban Guerillas doesn't cover that far down. One idea was that they would declare a Second Conch Republic and drop Seven Mile Bridge to isolate around a dozen islands from the mainland. I haven't done any real research on it, though.

[cawest]

One I've kicked around doing a few times was a Key West sourcebook. Urban Guerillas doesn't cover that far down. One idea was that they would declare a Second Conch Republic and drop Seven Mile Bridge to isolate around a dozen islands from the mainland. I haven't done any real research on it, though.

the bridge might have been dropped by a Ship launched missile close to the mainland. think about if the bridge had many breaks in it. how did each of those happened. some groups of keys would be better off than other groups.

[RN7]

Thats why a book on South Africa would be a good idea - to expand what happened and give those kind of details - the South Africans are mentioned in the East Africa Sourcebook but in a peripheral way - i.e. how they affected East Africa and the US/Kenyan/French/Rwandan forces there - but the actual nitty gritty of how they went thru the Twilight War still needs to be expanded

Do you want to start one Olefin?

[lordroel]

Thats why a book on South Africa would be a good idea - to expand what happened and give those kind of details - the South Africans are mentioned in the East Africa Sourcebook but in a peripheral way - i.e. how they affected East Africa and the US/Kenyan/French/Rwandan forces there - but the actual nitty gritty of how they went thru the Twilight War still needs to be expanded

There are now canon details that can be greatly expanded

The South Africans were attacked by two nuclear strikes by the Soviets in 1997

The South Africans struck back using their limited nuclear capacity against the Soviets and their Allies a few days later

They still have a few nuclear bombs and the US is helping them produce more bombs in return for some military equipment and supplies for AFRICOM

They are US allies against the Soviets but also are staying on friendly terms with the French as well

The South Africans ended apartheid and have given the blacks equal power with them in the government but not one man one vote - meaning its more like a divided government between the two groups

The South Africans invaded and took over choice areas in Zimbabwe and Namibia as part of ending the Great war and are still occupying those areas

The South Africans drove the Cubans out of Angola in 2000 along with UNITA (canon event mentioned in Gateway to the Spanish Main)

I wonder did South Africa in the Twilight 2000 verse ever develop the TTD or Tank Technology Demonstrator prototype main battle (http://www.military-today.com/tanks/tank_technology_demonstrator.htm) tank into a full production model ore it only has the Olifant Mk.1B main battle tank in service.

Also another question would be where until the start of the war sanctions still in place against South Africa.

[cawest]

Do you want to start one Olefin?


with the coal fields (open pit and tunnel) these will be of a lot of use. http://blog.sa-venues.com/activities/steam-train-rides-in-south-africa/

it breaks down most of these by engine types and number of them.

[The Dark]

I wonder did South Africa in the Twilight 2000 verse ever develop the TTD or Tank Technology Demonstrator prototype main battle (http://www.military-today.com/tanks/tank_technology_demonstrator.htm) tank into a full production model ore it only has the Olifant Mk.1B main battle tank in service.

Also another question would be where until the start of the war sanctions still in place against South Africa.

I'd expect they'd stick with the Olifant Mk.1B. The TTD adds a lot of engine power and has improved fire control, but at the cost of 14 rounds of main gun ammunition, and with no real improvement in armor (other than the front glacis, the rest of the hull was only proof up to 23mm rounds; the turret was the same as the Mk.1B). As a rough guess, using Paul's South African Tanks page (http://www.pmulcahy.com/tanks/south_african_tanks.html), it would be an Oliphant Mk.1B with the Mk.2's HF armor and fire control/stabilization, but with 54 rounds for the GT-7 and a Tr Mov of 140/112 and Com Mov of 32/26.

For my part, I wonder if they'd go on to develop the Rooikat 105. It would be a little less effective, but a much cheaper way to get the same cannon on the battlefield.

[cawest]

I'd expect they'd stick with the Olifant Mk.1B. The TTD adds a lot of engine power and has improved fire control, but at the cost of 14 rounds of main gun ammunition, and with no real improvement in armor (other than the front glacis, the rest of the hull was only proof up to 23mm rounds; the turret was the same as the Mk.1B). As a rough guess, using Paul's South African Tanks page (http://www.pmulcahy.com/tanks/south_african_tanks.html), it would be an Oliphant Mk.1B with the Mk.2's HF armor and fire control/stabilization, but with 54 rounds for the GT-7 and a Tr Mov of 140/112 and Com Mov of 32/26.

For my part, I wonder if they'd go on to develop the Rooikat 105. It would be a little less effective, but a much cheaper way to get the same cannon on the battlefield.


all of the reports during the Boarder was have the Ratel 90 and Eland Mk7 doing very well and taking out T-34's to take out the new tanks a 105. the UK and others would have a problem getting new (newish) Centurion hulls to SA. maybe they would sell/trade new tanks in low numbers at the start of the war. as the war went on these sources would dry up and maybe dry up fast. ATGM production is something I have not looked into yet. but HE and canister rounds are easier in time and equipment to make. This leads me to think that the Rooikat would be but into production and coming off the line as fast as they could. they might even convert a heavy truck line into turning out the large gun wheeled tanks in larger numbers.

[ArmySGT.]

all of the reports during the Boarder was have the Ratel 90 and Eland Mk7 doing very well and taking out T-34's to take out the new tanks a 105. the UK and others would have a problem getting new (newish) Centurion hulls to SA. maybe they would sell/trade new tanks in low numbers at the start of the war. as the war went on these sources would dry up and maybe dry up fast. ATGM production is something I have not looked into yet. but HE and canister rounds are easier in time and equipment to make. This leads me to think that the Rooikat would be but into production and coming off the line as fast as they could. they might even convert a heavy truck line into turning out the large gun wheeled tanks in larger numbers.

Don't forget the South African 155mm Arty, the G6.. This outranged even NATO cannon in the same caliber and overmatched the Soviet or Chicom 130mm and 152mm easily.

[The Dark]

all of the reports during the Boarder was have the Ratel 90 and Eland Mk7 doing very well and taking out T-34's to take out the new tanks a 105. the UK and others would have a problem getting new (newish) Centurion hulls to SA. maybe they would sell/trade new tanks in low numbers at the start of the war. as the war went on these sources would dry up and maybe dry up fast. ATGM production is something I have not looked into yet. but HE and canister rounds are easier in time and equipment to make. This leads me to think that the Rooikat would be but into production and coming off the line as fast as they could. they might even convert a heavy truck line into turning out the large gun wheeled tanks in larger numbers.

The Eland had either a 60mm gun-mortar or a 90mm low-velocity cannon. It was a good vehicle, but wouldn't reliably penetrate a T-55, let alone anything newer; the 90mm has around 320mm penetration against RHA and the 60mm only 200mm of penetration at point-blank ranges. The Ratel had either a 20mm autocannon or one of the main armaments from the Eland.

The Eland did carry a pair of SS.11 missiles, with 600mm penetration against RHA, and some Ratel were modified to ZT-3 configuration with the Ingwe ATGM (1,000mm RHA penetration). However, as you said, gun rounds are easier to do than missiles. The Rooikat's 76mm is based on the OTO Melara naval gun (76mm L/62) and is said to be able to penetrate a T-62's glacis at 2 kilometers. The 105mm that was tested was equivalent to the Royal Ordnance L7, and the APDS rounds were considered equal to the British L52, which implies T-62 penetration at 2.5km. It wouldn't quite be up to handling the modified T-72s and T-80s that the USSR built after analyzing Israeli rounds, but it would do well against earlier tanks. One big advantage would be the ability to use any 105mm NATO rounds, so anything they could beg, borrow, barter, or steal would work.

[cawest]

Don't forget the South African 155mm Arty, the G6.. This outranged even NATO cannon in the same caliber and overmatched the Soviet or Chicom 130mm and 152mm easily.


and that is one of the reason i'm looking forward to seeing a South Africa book.

[The Dark]

Interestingly, the biggest user of the G6 was/is the UAE. South Africa only bought 43 systems, while the Emirates bought 78 and Oman bought 24.

One variant that might see more use in a Twilight War scenario was the G6 Marksman, with twin 35mm Oerlikons replacing the 155mm for use as an anti-aircraft vehicle. I could see one or two of them accompanying a G6 battery as organic AAA and close-assault protection.

[cawest]

Interestingly, the biggest user of the G6 was/is the UAE. South Africa only bought 43 systems, while the Emirates bought 78 and Oman bought 24.

One variant that might see more use in a Twilight War scenario was the G6 Marksman, with twin 35mm Oerlikons replacing the 155mm for use as an anti-aircraft vehicle. I could see one or two of them accompanying a G6 battery as organic AAA and close-assault protection.

or the Marksman's turret mounted on a anti pirate boat or river gun boat or a gun truck...

hate for any ship go down near Seal island... air jaws up close.

[RN7]

I'd expect they'd stick with the Olifant Mk.1B.

More than likely as it was superior to the Soviet supplied tanks used by other African nations.

Also Centurion hulls were available. In 1990 Britain declared that it held 570 Centurion tanks in storage, although that probably included some Centurions hulls used as engineer, bridging and recovery vehicles. In real life they were scrapped or sold on at the end of the Cold War, but in T2K they were likely retained.

However in 1977 the UN Security Council adopted resolution 418 which imposed a mandatory arms embargo against South Africa, and Britain who abided by it would have not been able to sell arms directly to South Africa. Israel would be an obvious choice to send the Centurions due to their close military relations with South Africa, and the upgrades performed by Israel on its own Centurion tanks. But Britain had also placed an arms embargo on Israel in 1982 due to the Israeli inasion of Lebanon, but British companies like others found way's and means to get around these embargos.

For my part, I wonder if they'd go on to develop the Rooikat 105. It would be a little less effective, but a much cheaper way to get the same cannon on the battlefield.

Its possible and certainly South Africa favoured wheeled vehicles on the South African terrain, as excluding the Olifant tanks the rest of the South African army's fleet of over 5,000 armoured vehicles were wheeled.

[James Langham2]

There is an Osprey coming out/is out on armour of the SA border war so that might give extra info.

[James Langham2]

Possible sources for Centurions:

Switzerland (who had bought them from SA in the first place!)

Singapore (from INdia and Israel)

Worth noting that Somalia had 30 Centurions in the late 1980s from Kuwait

[lordroel]

There is an Osprey coming out/is out on armour of the SA border war so that might give extra info.

That is something i will buy if i ever get the change.

[cawest]

a new equipment source book. "Improvised Armored Vehicles".


it would have images and stats of all kinds of gun trucks, armored bulldozers, mg to cannon to ATGM armed technicals, river, near coast and deep water pirates. maybe even gun trains.


some ideas could be found from Syria, Kurds, and Africa

[RN7]

There is an Osprey coming out/is out on armour of the SA border war so that might give extra info.

I need to get that. I have Osprey's South African Special Forces book.

Here is a link to an article about South African operations in Angola in the late 1980's.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a526489.pdf

[The Dark]

Possible sources for Centurions:

Switzerland (who had bought them from SA in the first place!)

Singapore (from INdia and Israel)

Worth noting that Somalia had 30 Centurions in the late 1980s from Kuwait

I'm not sure they'd need more. South Africa had 224 Olifant Mk.1 (total for both A and B) in service in 1996 in our timeline, along with 28 bridge-laying Olifants. FAPLA had T-54/55 (150) and T-62 (175), while PLAN had T-34 and T-55 that were rolled into the NDF. AFAIK, T-72 didn't reach the area until 1999 (again, in our timeline), and I need convincing that the Soviet Union would send anything other than T-54/55 and T-62 to either FAPLA or PLAN, since that's not a priority theater for them. I also realize I just come up with an argument against the Rooikat 105 I suggested earlier, since the Rooikat 76 is capable of defeating all FAPLA or PLAN armor at 2 kilometers; the 105 is unnecessary unless heavier armor is deployed.

If they do buy more, Israeli Sho't Kal might be another source. They were one of the inspirations for the Olifant, and would fit in well. Israel had 390 of them in the mid-80s but started converting them to HAPCs as the Merkavas entered service, so I'm not sure how many would still be available (although the HAPCs could be converted back by Denel).

[cawest]

I'm not sure they'd need more. South Africa had 224 Olifant Mk.1 (total for both A and B) in service in 1996 in our timeline, along with 28 bridge-laying Olifants. FAPLA had T-54/55 (150) and T-62 (175), while PLAN had T-34 and T-55 that were rolled into the NDF. AFAIK, T-72 didn't reach the area until 1999 (again, in our timeline), and I need convincing that the Soviet Union would send anything other than T-54/55 and T-62 to either FAPLA or PLAN, since that's not a priority theater for them. I also realize I just come up with an argument against the Rooikat 105 I suggested earlier, since the Rooikat 76 is capable of defeating all FAPLA or PLAN armor at 2 kilometers; the 105 is unnecessary unless heavier armor is deployed.

If they do buy more, Israeli Sho't Kal might be another source. They were one of the inspirations for the Olifant, and would fit in well. Israel had 390 of them in the mid-80s but started converting them to HAPCs as the Merkavas entered service, so I'm not sure how many would still be available (although the HAPCs could be converted back by Denel).

they might send T-72 to "high profile" units, maybe a company or so not T80's or newer. as the war went on resupply, i think would go all the down to t34's, they had them already and parts and knowledge was there.

why 105 vs 76mm...

the 76 would work against T62, but not if it they were fit with ERA. when planning you have to think 10 years in advance of your data. The SA might be getting a "warning" about "new" tanks coming into there local area.."soon". that would drive making a local product that could ambush kill T-72/T64.

how about having two lines. one making a lot more 76mm and a smaller one making a few 105mm turrets.

also the 76mm is not a "nato" round. getting 105mm Nato type rounds would be alot cheaper and would simplify working with Olifants with the L7's. i don't think the 76mm has a canister round.

[RN7]

FAPLA had T-54/55 (150) and T-62 (175), while PLAN had T-34 and T-55 that were rolled into the NDF. AFAIK, T-72 didn't reach the area until 1999 (again, in our timeline)

Military Balance lists Angola as having 300 T-54/T-55s in early 1990s, along with the T-62s and T-34s.

UNITA also had about 70 captured T-54/T-55 and some T-34s. Pro-Soviet Mozambique also had 80 T-54/T-55s.

[ArmySGT.]

a new equipment source book. "Improvised Armored Vehicles".


it would have images and stats of all kinds of gun trucks, armored bulldozers, mg to cannon to ATGM armed technicals, river, near coast and deep water pirates. maybe even gun trains.


some ideas could be found from Syria, Kurds, and Africa


there is enough variety in Africa to do a sole "Wild Tales of AFRICOM" source book with just Zimbabwe, Angola, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, and South Africa. Keeping with locally produced or technicals can give you a 200 page source book pretty quick.

3899

[cawest]

there is enough variety in Africa to do a sole "Wild Tales of AFRICOM" source book with just Zimbabwe, Angola, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, and South Africa. Keeping with locally produced or technicals can give you a 200 page source book pretty quick.

3899


I know, an't that cool. and i forgot to put aircraft on the list.

[Olefin]

Thats why I said the GM's are free to improvise with Technicals instead of trying to make a specific "this is a Somali Technical" - if you want an idea of just how outlandish a gun truck or Technical can be look at what the Libyan resistance came up with when they were fighting a few years ago against the Libyan Army - I think the shorter list would be what can't you put on an AWD truck or jeep than what you can

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"

[ArmySGT.]

Thats why I said the GM's are free to improvise with Technicals instead of trying to make a specific "this is a Somali Technical" - if you want an idea of just how outlandish a gun truck or Technical can be look at what the Libyan resistance came up with when they were fighting a few years ago against the Libyan Army - I think the shorter list would be what can't you put on an AWD truck or jeep than what you can

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"


ISIS leads the way. Scan towards the bottom for a T-55 VBIED loaded with probably 3-5 ton of explosives and detonated. OryxBlog (http://spioenkop.blogspot.com/)


Title is yours. I would never have a use for it. My T2K is either yoorup or murica based modules.

[cawest]

Thats why I said the GM's are free to improvise with Technicals instead of trying to make a specific "this is a Somali Technical" - if you want an idea of just how outlandish a gun truck or Technical can be look at what the Libyan resistance came up with when they were fighting a few years ago against the Libyan Army - I think the shorter list would be what can't you put on an AWD truck or jeep than what you can

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"

most GM's are hard pressed as it is. I know when I had to be one, I would steal what ever I could for filler and with these types of weapons, it would take some work to get ideas of what had been used in real life. because if you have looked at some of them... let just say that someone must have been on LSD when they came up with the idea.

[The Dark]

they might send T-72 to "high profile" units, maybe a company or so not T80's or newer. as the war went on resupply, i think would go all the down to t34's, they had them already and parts and knowledge was there.

why 105 vs 76mm...

the 76 would work against T62, but not if it they were fit with ERA. when planning you have to think 10 years in advance of your data. The SA might be getting a "warning" about "new" tanks coming into there local area.."soon". that would drive making a local product that could ambush kill T-72/T64.

how about having two lines. one making a lot more 76mm and a smaller one making a few 105mm turrets.

also the 76mm is not a "nato" round. getting 105mm Nato type rounds would be alot cheaper and would simplify working with Olifants with the L7's. i don't think the 76mm has a canister round.

South Africa was working on a canister round for the 76mm back around 2010 or so. I haven't heard whether it got deployed along with the existing HE and APFSDS. It's not NATO-standard, but it's heavily used - the only major NATO fleet that doesn't use it is the UK.

For T-62s with ERA, they're rare. When the USSR broke up, only 113 of them existed (using Kontakt-1). I haven't seen any claims that type of ERA was effective against KE rounds (unlike Kontakt-5, which added ~250mm RHA equivalent to the armor thickness).

[ArmySGT.]

Thats why I said the GM's are free to improvise with Technicals instead of trying to make a specific "this is a Somali Technical" - if you want an idea of just how outlandish a gun truck or Technical can be look at what the Libyan resistance came up with when they were fighting a few years ago against the Libyan Army - I think the shorter list would be what can't you put on an AWD truck or jeep than what you can

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"

To be fair to the nations listed "technicals" do have a local flavor. A Somali built technical is typically a Range Rover or Toyota Hilux sporting one of four weapon systems (typically, there are more) DsHK, KPV, Recoilless Rifle (Soviet or U.S.), or a Soviet 23mm ZPU 23-1 or 23-2. Eritrea is DsHKs or PK on civvie cars with the roof cut off. Angola, may find a turretless T-55 with multiple MGs welded to cover sectors.

[lordroel]

Do not know if this is the right place for it but have created a list of the South African Navy before the outbreak of the war. Not mention are the tugs in use with the South African Navy.

Good page to see more about the South African navy is called: "The South African Navy during the years of conflict in Southern Africa 1966-1989"
(https://web.archive.org/web/20131202233250/http://humanities.ufs.ac.za/dl/userfiles/Documents/00001/1095_eng.pdf)
South African Navy

Submarines

Daphne class-submarines

S97 SAS Maria van Riebeeck (S97).
S98 SAS Emily Hobhouse(S98).
S99 SAS Johanna van der Merwe (S99).

Fast attack craft

General-class-class strike craft

General-class-class strike craft in service with the South African Navy are modified Sa'ar 4.5 class fast attack craft, three where build to replace the three President-class Type 12 frigates who where decommissioned in the early 1990s.

SAS de Wet (P1570)
SAS Piet Joubert (P1571)
SAS Jan Kemp (P1572)

Warrior-class strike craft

The Warrior-class strike craft in service with the South African Navy are modified Sa'ar 4 (Reshef) class fast attack craft.

SAS Jan Smuts (P1561)
SAS P.W. Botha (P1562)
SAS Frederic Creswell (P1563)
SAS Jim Fouché (P1564)
SAS Frans Erasmus (P1565)
SAS Oswald Pirow (P1566)
SAS Hendrik Mentz (P1567)
SAS Kobie Coetsee (P1568)
SAS Magnus Malan (P1569)

Depot/replenishment ships

SAS Tafelberg
SAS Drakensberg

Mine counter measures vessels

River-class mine counter measures vessels

SAS Umkomaas
SAS Umhloti
SAS Umgeni
SAS Umzimkulu

Ton-class minesweepers

SAS Windhoek
SAS East London
SAS Kimberley
SAS Walvisbaai

Patrol boat

Namacurra-class harbour patrol boat

Pennant Numbers Y1501 - Y1530

[pmulcahy11b]

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"

When I was working on it, I was thinking of "Morning Calm" for my Korea work, and "Remember the Alamo" for my San Antonio work.

I'm working on them again -- but very slowly. One day, I'll have something finished to put up on my site.

[Olefin]

San Antonio would be a very good area for a module - was getting to that in my Olefin Universe thread but put that on hold to finish the sourcebook - will get back to that soon

[ArmySGT.]

Why not collaborate on a "technicals and improvised vehicles" book.

A points system based on tech level, materials at hand, builders knowledge, tools available, and time.

Points (or cash) buys chassis, engine, tires, electrical system, hydraulics, brakes, reliability, and common parts. With common, uncommon, difficult to find, rare, and antique affecting availability and cost. Along the lines of Car Wars perhaps?

[swaghauler]

Possible sources for Centurions:

Switzerland (who had bought them from SA in the first place!)

Singapore (from INdia and Israel)

Worth noting that Somalia had 30 Centurions in the late 1980s from Kuwait

Essentially no Centurions survived the Collapse in Somalia. I personally saw the 2nd MEU destroying one near Kismayo so it wouldn't fall into "militia" hands. The UN was also "securing" other large ordinance (howitzers and large AFVs) left over from the Collapse.

What Somalia had in abundance were Toyota trucks (the majority 1980's vintage 2WD and 4WD regular cabs with rotting bodies). These mounted every crew served weapon imaginable and the various factions used them liberally too.

[The Dark]

A technicals book would be interesting, particularly if it discussed the locally preferred types (as mentioned up-thread) and had base vehicles to work from to allow a campaign to have its own technicals. Since people have a tendency to want to add everything to their vehicles, some sort of rules for what happens when a frame is overloaded would help.

For Merc, it might also be useful to have civilian armored cars (Brinks trucks) and possibly some construction vehicles like bulldozers or dump trucks.

[Adm.Lee]

What about something to adjust the rules to different time periods and settings?

I've posted before about the post-WWI game that I've run (and might do again), and a pre-WW2 or WW2 game might have legs. It was suggested that the Jedburgh missions would be a really good setting for a short-term campaign. During the Cold War, there should be plenty of Merc-style missions or longer-term campaign settings.

Such an article would highlight period weapons whose stats are available in the various sourcebooks or modules, plus conversions for weapons & vehicles that aren't in any of the books.
- Adjustments to character generation (no Computer skill, for instance)
- depending on the campaign, the availability of outside support
- depending on the campaign, opposing forces and potential mission ideas