USAF Europe

[RN7]

Anybody have any thoughts about how much of USAF Europe is still about?

In the Cold War it was a huge organisation, one of the biggest commands in the USAF. I think some of it must have survived.

1) 3rd Air Force (HQ: RAF Mildenhall, UK) (UK only)
2) 16th Air Force (HQ: Torrejon, Spain) (Spain, Italy, Greece & Turkey)
3) 17th Air Force (HQ: Sembach, Germany) (Germany, with some squadrons in Belgium & Netherlands)
4) 7th Air Division (Ramstein, Germany) (Germany, UK & Spain)
5) 322nd Airlift Division (Ramstein, Germany) (Germany & UK)
6) 352nd Special Oparations Wing (RAF Mildenhall, UK)
7) 7455th Tactical Intelligence Wing (Ramstein, Germany)

This orbat is sourced from Rainbow Six's USAF in the UK covering the 3rd US Air Force.

3rd Air Force (HQ: RAF Mildenhall, England)
20th Fighter Wing (RAF Greenham Common, England)
Forces: 50 troops, 2x F-15C
27th Fighter Wing (RAF Lakenheath, England)
Forces: 50 troops, 3x F-15E
33rd Fighter Wing (RAF Greenham Common, England)
Forces: 100 troops, 3x F-15E, 2x EF-111
48th Fighter Wing (RAF Lakenheath, England)
Forces: 100 troops, 2x F-16C, 1x F-18C, 1x AV-8B, 1x A-6E
363rd Fighter Wing (RAF Mildenhall, England)
Forces: 50 troops, 3x F-16C
366th Fighter Wing (RAF Greenham Common, England)
Forces: 50 troops, 3x F-16C
17th Reconnaisance Wing (RAF Alconbury, England)
Forces: 50 troops, 2x TR-1
94th Airlift Wing (RAF Greenham Common, England)
Forces: 50 troops, 1x C-130H, 1x C-20, 1x C-12, 1x UH-60, 1x UH-1N
95th Reconnaisance Squadron (Mildenhall, England)
Forces: 50 troops, 1x SR-71, 1x C-9A
11th Aeromedical Squadron (RAF Mildenhall, England)
Forces: 50 troops, 1x CH-53D, 1x UH-60
155th Tactical Reconnaisance Group (RAF Coltishall, England)
Forces: 40 troops, 1x RF-4C
20th Security Police Squadron (RAF Greenham Common, England)
Forces: 200 troops, 8x M750
48th Security Police Squadron (RAF Lakenheath, England)
Forces: 100 troops, 4x M750
513th Security Police Squadron (RAF Mildenhall, England)
Forces: 150 troops, 6x M750

[Rainbow Six]

I'm one of those who thinks there would still be a very small number of surviving aircraft dotted around here and there in Europe, dependent on how many bases survived. As a main logistics hub Ramstein strikes me as being a likely target for a tactical nuke (if it wasn't already plastered to the point of being unuseable by conventional attacks).

The bases in Spain and Italy are confirmed as closed in Med Cruise, so their aircraft would have to go elsewhere - presumably either the UK or the FRG. Presumably the same for Greece and Belgium.

3rd Air Force is probably one of the areas of my piece that I'll revisit at some point (or as Leg put it, tinker with :D)) as I think it could probably be improved (or at least give a fuller backstory as to what Wings / Squadrons are there, how they got there, and what happened to the ones that aren't there - I'm fairly sure that all of the UK based A10 Squadrons would have deployed to the FRG for example and I think I've brushed over the Bentwaters Aggressor Squadron).

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'm one of those who thinks there would still be a very small number of surviving aircraft dotted around here and there in Europe, dependent on how many bases survived. As a main logistics hub Ramstein strikes me as being a likely target for a tactical nuke (if it wasn't already plastered to the point of being unuseable by conventional attacks).

The bases in Spain and Italy are confirmed as closed in Med Cruise, so their aircraft would have to go elsewhere - presumably either the UK or the FRG. Presumably the same for Greece and Belgium.

3rd Air Force is probably one of the areas of my piece that I'll revisit at some point (or as Leg put it, tinker with :D)) as I think it could probably be improved (or at least give a fuller backstory as to what Wings / Squadrons are there, how they got there, and what happened to the ones that aren't there - I'm fairly sure that all of the UK based A10 Squadrons would have deployed to the FRG for example and I think I've brushed over the Bentwaters Aggressor Squadron).

I think a "slightly operational" USAF consisting of a tiny handful of aircraft isn't entirely unfeasible depending on how you want to do your campaign. As things wore on post-1997, of course, vital stuff is going to quit flowing in, resupply isn't going to happen for critical parts and you're going to get down to either flying birds with major, major upgripes or switching to simpler stuff (OV-10Ds for interdiction, maybe a couple fitted out with Sidewinders for anti-air).

Actually the idea of a USAF wing rebuilt around the remaining Broncos is kinda neat.

[Rainbow Six]

I think a "slightly operational" USAF consisting of a tiny handful of aircraft isn't entirely unfeasible depending on how you want to do your campaign. As things wore on post-1997, of course, vital stuff is going to quit flowing in, resupply isn't going to happen for critical parts and you're going to get down to either flying birds with major, major upgripes or switching to simpler stuff (OV-10Ds for interdiction, maybe a couple fitted out with Sidewinders for anti-air).

Actually the idea of a USAF wing rebuilt around the remaining Broncos is kinda neat.

Yeah, I've always kinda thought that the actual aircraft themselves should be rare but not totally non existent...it's getting the fuel and the spare parts to keep them airworthy that are the problem. So what you would see is the concentration of those assets to keep a handful of aircraft operable.

[Panther Al]

I have no doubt that by the summer of 2000 there is still plenty of Aircraft sitting in airbases that could take to the air and perform various missions. Just too many airframes in Europe (Or sent there from the states) for there not to be.

But,


And its a Big But,

They wouldn't be flying much if at all. While parts would be scarce, I have no doubts what so ever that the Airbase personnel have cannibalised all the parts they need to make sure that those are left by and large are tip top - but they are not taking to the air because fuel is so scarce. So, yes, plenty of Airworthy Airframes, just no go juice save for the most critical of missions (In fact, I believe that the Summer Offensive saw - for the time - a heavy use of Airpower as those resources that was saved up and scrounged up over the previous year was used in supporting the breakthrough of the Soviet Lines to get into Poland. Not enough to support the offensive for very long, but enough to break out.).

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I have no doubt that by the summer of 2000 there is still plenty of Aircraft sitting in airbases that could take to the air and perform various missions. Just too many airframes in Europe (Or sent there from the states) for there not to be.

But,


And its a Big But,

They wouldn't be flying much if at all. While parts would be scarce, I have no doubts what so ever that the Airbase personnel have cannibalised all the parts they need to make sure that those are left by and large are tip top - but they are not taking to the air because fuel is so scarce. So, yes, plenty of Airworthy Airframes, just no go juice save for the most critical of missions (In fact, I believe that the Summer Offensive saw - for the time - a heavy use of Airpower as those resources that was saved up and scrounged up over the previous year was used in supporting the breakthrough of the Soviet Lines to get into Poland. Not enough to support the offensive for very long, but enough to break out.).

Yah; I would agree with that 100%. I think any remaining AvGas is being kept for a "jesus Christ, soviet tanks are moving on Berlin" type situation, or if the French decide they want hunks of Germany, or if someone tries to stop OpOrd Omega with air assets or enough ground assets to merit using the last of the fuel.

[RN7]

Personally I think some of the 17th Air Force (about two dozen aircraft) and elements of the 7th Air Division and 322nd Airlift Division is still deployed in Germany and maybe Denmark and Norway in operational NATO air bases alongside RAF, Luftwaffe and other NATO units. Most of the 16th Air Forces probably ends up being sent to Germany earlier in the war, or to the Middle East or/and British bases in the Med (Gibralter, Cyprus). 352nd Special Operations Wing is probably split between the UK, Germany and Scandinavia.

[Legbreaker]

Agreed, there's bound to be a handful of aircraft in Europe capable of flying, probably those too damaged in say late 97 early 98 to transfer to the middle east but repaired later from scrounged/cannibalised parts. My guess is something like 3-4 fixed wing fighter types per army Corps would be a decent figure with a serious lack of fuel and perhaps ordnance.

"Shutterbug", from Twilight Encounters has two Soviet planes listed as attached to one of their Army HQ's, both set up for recce missions from memory but only used for absolutely VITAL tasks.

There would probably be a similar number of cargo planes, and a couple of helicopters available to each Division (as per US 8th ID in the Eastern European Sourcebook) but again fuel, ammunition and parts will keep them on the ground more often than not.

A few civilian light aircraft would probably have been pressed into service to be used as spotter craft and the occasional flight by somebody VERY important (Corps commanders going to a meeting prior to the Spring offensive for example). Microlights and ultralights would see some use perhaps as artillery spotters, but they'd be universally hated by the pilots for their slow speed and extreme vulnerability. Being assigned as a pilot may even be considered a punishment in some cases.

[RN7]

Thought I'd give USAF Europe a go. If I was to add Chico's version of the USAF then you could multiply this orbat threefold.

US AIR FORCE EUROPE (USAFE)

US Third Air Force
The Third Air Force was predominantly based in British air bases in the UK before the war, although some of its component wings were transferred to the Seventeenth Air Force in Germany in 1996. Following the nuclear exchanges some units from the Seventeenth Air Force and the 39th Special Operations Wing in Europe were relocated to the UK as British air bases survived in far better shape than most of their NATO counterparts in Europe. In 2000 the Third Air Force is the largest surviving component of USAF Europe and works closely with British forces in the UK in security for the areas its units are located in. Flights to Europe and North America are still maintained on an irregular bases but non-essential combat operations are rare due the general fuel shortage. I’ve also grouped a number of US Navy squadrons with Third Air Force in the UK as I’m of the same view as Matt that the aircraft carrier CVN-71 Theodore Roosevelt is anchored in the Solent off Portsmouth as the British government is assisting in refuelling its nuclear core.

20th Tactical Fighter Wing (RAF Upper Heyford, England)
Forces: 220 troops, 4x F-111E, 8x Peacekeeper AFV
55th Tactical Fighter Squadron (60 troops, 3x F-111E)
77th Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x F-111E)
79th Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops)
20th Security Police Group (100 troops, 8x Peacekeeper, 4x HMMWV-FS)

36th Tactical Fighter Wing (RAF Lakenheath, England)
Forces: 340 troops, 4x F-15C, 3x F-14D, 2x F-16C, 1x AT-105 Saxon AFV, 2x Peacekeeper AFV, 4x HMMWV-FS
22nd Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x F-15C)
53rd Tactical Fighter Squadron (50 troops, 2x F-15C)
527th Tactical Fighter Training Squadron (40 troops, 2x F-16C)
535th Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x F-15C)
US Navy Fighter Squadron 41 (50 troops, 2x F-14D)
US Navy Fighter Squadron 84 (30 troops, 1x F-14D)
36th Security Police Squadron (100 troops, 1x AT-105 Saxon, 2x Peacekeeper, 4x HMMWV-FS)

48th Tactical Fighter Wing (RAF Lakenheath, England)
Forces: 540 troops, 5x F-15E, 7x F/A-18C, 1x AV-8B, 2x A-6F, 4x Peacekeeper AFV
492nd Tactical Fighter Squadron (60 troops, 2x F-15E)
493rd Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x F-15E)
494th Tactical Fighter Squadron (50 troops, 2x F-15E)
495th Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops)
US Navy Strike-Fighter Squadron 15 (30 troops, 1x F/A-18C)
US Navy Strike-Fighter Squadron 87 (70 troops, 3x F/A-18C)
US Marine Fighter-Attack Squadron 224 (50 troops, 2x F/A-18C)
US Marine Fighter-Attack Squadron 312 (30 troops, 1x F/A-18C)
US Navy Attack Squadron 35 (40 troops, 2x A-6F)
US Navy Attack Squadron 36 (30 troops)
US Marine Attack Squadron 231 (30 troops, 1x AV-8B)
48th Security Police Group (90 troops, 4x Peacekeeper)

17th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing (RAF Alconbury, England)
Forces: 250 troops, 1x SR-71, 2x TR-1, 1x M113 AFV, 3x Peacekeeper AFV, 2x HMMWV-FS
95th Reconnaissance Squadron (70 troops, 1x SR-71, 2x TR-1)
496th Reconnaissance Technical Group (30 troops)
7274th Security Police Squadron (90 troops, 1x M113, 3x Peacekeeper, 2x HMMWV-FS)

39th Special Operations Wing (RAF Mildenhall, England)
Forces: 150 troops, 1x MC-130H, 1x HC-130P, 2x MH-53M, 2x HH-60
7th Special Operation Squadron (30 troops, 1x MC-130H)
21st Special Operations Squadron (60 troops, 2x MH-53M)
67th Special Operations Squadron (30 troops, 1x HC-130P)
56th Air Rescue Squadron (30 troops, 2x HH-60)

66th Electronic Countermeasures Wing (RAF Upper Heyford, England)
Forces: 120 troops, 2x EF-111A, 1x EC-130H
42nd Electronic Countermeasure Squadron: (50 troops, 2x EF-111A)
43rd Electronic Countermeasure Squadron (30 troops, 1x EC-130H)
66th Security Police Squadron (40 troops)

100th Air Refuelling Wing (RAF Mildenhall, England)
Forces: 70 troops, 2x KC-135
509th Air Refuelling Squadron (70 troops, 2x KC-135)

434th Air Refuelling Wing (RAF Lossiemouth, Scotland)
Forces: 70 troops, 2x KC-135
72nd Air Refuelling Squadron (30 troops, 1x KC-135)
74th Air Refuelling Squadron (40 troops, 1x KC-135)

501st Tactical Missile Wing (RAF Greenham Common, England)
Forces: 240 troops, 6x BGM-109G GLCM, 1x Fox AFV, 1x Fuchs AFV, 5x Peacekeeper AFV, 3x HMMWV-FS
501st Security Police Squadron (50 troops)
501st Missile Security Squadron (100 troops, 1x Fox, 1x Fuchs, 5x Peacekeeper, 3x HMMWV-FS)

513th Airborne Command & Control Wing (RAF Mildenhall, England)
Forces: 310 troops, 1x E-3C, 1x E-2C, 1x EC-135, 3x EA-6B, 6x Peacekeeper AFV, 2x HMMWV-FS
10th Airborne Command & Control Squadron (60 troops, 1x E-3C, 1x EC-135
US Navy Tactical Electronic Warfare Squadron 141 (40 troops, 2x EA-6B)
US Marine Tactical Electronic Warfare Squadron 2 (20 troops, 1x EA-6B)
US Marine Tactical Electronic Warfare Squadron 4 (20 troops)
US Navy Carrier Airborne Early Warning Squadron 124 (20 troops, 1x E-2C)
513th Security Police Squadron (150 troops, 6x Peacekeeper, 2x HMMWV-FS)

313th Tactical Airlift Group (RAF Mildenhall, England)
Forces: 50 troops, 2x C-130E

US Navy Anti-Submarine Group (RNAS Yeovilton, England)
Forces: 90 troops, 2x S-3B, 3x SH-60F)
US Navy Air Anti-Submarine Squadron 24 (50 troops, 2x S-3B
US Navy Helicopter Anti-Submarine Squadron 9 (40 troops, 3x SH-60F)

US Navy Patrol Squadron 26 (RAF Kinloss, Scotland)
Forces: 30 troops, 1x P-3C


US Sixteenth Air Force
The Sixteenth Air Force was disbanded in 1996 as most of its component units were based in countries that declared neutrality and left NATO or aligned with the Warsaw Pact. Its only major combat wing was relocated to the British air force base on Cyprus, with other units disbanding, transferring to CENTCOM in the Middle East of being dispersed across the Mediterranean.

401st Tactical Fighter Wing (RAF Akrotiri, Cyprus)
Forces: 380 troops, 3x F-16C, 1x F/A-18C, 1x AV-8B, 1x EA-6B, 1x EP-3E, 1x KC-130J, 1x C-130F, 1x C-2A, 1x Peacekeeper AFV, 1x AT-105 Saxon AFV
612th Tactical Fighter Squadron (50 troops, 1x F-16C)
613th Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x F-16C)
614th Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x F-16C)
7450th Tactical Intelligence Squadron (40 troops)
US Marine Fighter-Attack Squadron 122 (30 troops, 1x F/A-18C)
US Marine Attack Squadron 203 (30 troops, 1x AV-8B)
US Marine Tactical Electronic Warfare Squadron 1 (20 troops, 1x EA-6B)
US Navy Fleet Air Reconnaissance Squadron 2 (30 troops, 1x EP-3E)
US Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadron 252 (30 troops, 1x KC-130J)
US Navy Fleet Logistical Support Squadron 22 (30 troops, 1x C-130F)
US Navy Fleet Logistical Support Squadron 24 (20 troops, 1x C-2A)
401st Security Police Squadron (40 troops, 1x Peacekeeper, 1x AT-105 Saxon)

487th Tactical Missile Wing (Dhahran, Saudi Arabia)
Forces: 230 troops, 8x BGM-109G GLCM, 6x Peacekeeper AFV, 4x HMMWV-FS
487th Security Police Squadron (40 troops)
487th Missile Security Squadron (60 troops, 6x Peacekeeper, 4x HMMWV-FS)

1605th Security Police Squadron (Lajes Field, Azores)
Forces: 20 troops

7206th Security Police Squadron (RAF Akrotiri, Cyprus)
Forces: 30 troops

7276th Security Police Squadron (Gibraltar)
Forces: 30 troops


US Seventeenth Air Force
The Seventeenth Air Force in Germany was reinforced by Third Air Force wings in 1996, and 322nd Air Division was placed under its control. More exposed to Warsaw Pact counter-attacks than Third Air Force based units, its component units were soon dispersed to other NATO air bases operated in Germany. During the nuclear exchanges in 1997 a number of its main bases were destroyed including Sembach and Ramstein, but earlier dispersals had saved many squadrons from destruction. Although some of its units were transferred to the UK and Norway and attrition and casualties has dwindled its effective strength over the last few years, the Seventeenth Air Force works closely with the Luftwaffe and other surviving NATO forces in central Europe, and fuel allowing retains enough operational air power to deter Soviet or French forces from encroaching on Germany.

10th Tactical Fighter Wing (Spangdahlem AB, Germany)
Forces: 150 troops, 3x A-10, 2x Peacekeeper AFV, 4x HMMWV-FS
509th Tactical Fighter Squadron (60 troops: 2x A-10)
511th Tactical Fighter squadron (40 troops, 1x A-10)
10th Security Police Squadron (50 troops, 2x Peacekeeper, 4x HMMWV-FS)

50th Tactical Fighter Wing (Fassberg AB, Germany)
Forces: 220 troops, 1x F-15C, 4x F-16C, 2x Peacekeeper AFV
10th Tactical Fighter Squadron (40 troops, 2x F-16C)
32nd Tactical Fighter Squadron (40 troops, 1x F-15C)
313th Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x F-16C)
496th Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x F-16C)
50th Security Police Group (80 troops, 2x Peacekeeper)

52nd Tactical Fighter Wing (Jever AB, Germany)
Forces: 300 troops, 4x F-16C, 1x F/A-18C, 1x F-4G, 2x Peacekeeper AFV
23rd Tactical Fighter Squadron (40 troops, 2x F-16C)
81st Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x F-4G)
480th Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x F-16C)
481st Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x F-16C)
US Marine Fighter-Attack Squadron 115 (30 troops, 1x F/A-18C)
38th Security Police Squadron (40 troops)
52nd Security Police Squadron (100 troops, 2x Peacekeeper)

81st Tactical Fighter Wing (Laage AB, Germany)
Forces: 240 troops, 4x A-10, 2x AV-8B, 1x Peacekeeper AFV, 2x HMMWV-FS
78th Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x A-10)
91st Tactical Fighter Squadron (60 troops, 2x A-10)
92nd Tactical Fighter Squadron (30 troops, 1x A-10)
US Marine Attack Squadron 542 (60 troops, 2x AV-8B)
81st Security Police Squadron (60 troops, 1x Peacekeeper, 2x HMMWV-FS)

86th Tactical Fighter Wing (Bodo AB, Norway)
Forces: 270 troops, 3x F-16C, 2x F/A-18C, 2x AV-B, 2x CH-53E
512th Tactical Fighter Wing (60 troops, 2x F-16C)
513th Tactical Fighter Wing (20 troops, 1x F-16C)
US Marine Fighter-Attack Squadron 251 (30 troops, 1x F/A-18C)
US Marine Fighter-Attack Squadron 533 (30 troops, 1x F/A-18C)
US Marine Attack Squadron 223 (50 troops, 2x AV-8B)
US Navy Helicopter Combat Support Squadron 4 (40 troops, 2x CH-53E)


26th Tactical Reconnaissance Wing (Jever AB, Germany)
Forces: 130 troops, 2x RF-4C, 1x EA-6B
38th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron (40 troops, 2x RF-4C)
497th Reconnaissance Technical Group (30 troops)
US Marine Tactical Electronic Warfare Squadron 3 (20 troops, 1x EA-6B)
26th Security Police Squadron (40 troops)

38th Tactical Missile Wing (Lindsey Air Station, Germany)
Forces: troops, 190 troops, 3x BGM-109G GLCM, 2x LAV-600, 2x Fuchs AFV, 6x Peacekeeper AFV
7451st Tactical Intelligence Squadron (50 troops)
38th Security Police Squadron (100 troops, 2x LAV-600, 2x Fuchs, 6x Peacekeeper, 4x HMMWV-FS)

435th Tactical Airlift Wing (Rhein-Main AB, Germany)
Forces: 210 troops, 1x C-141, 2x C-130H, 1x C-9, 2x Fuchs AFV, 3x M113 AFV, 1x HMMWV-FS
10th Military Airlift Squadron (60 troops, 2x C-23)
35th Tactical Airlift Squadron (30 troops, 1x C-141)
37th Tactical Airlift Squadron (60 troops, 2x C-130H)
55th Aeromedical Airlift Squadron (30 troops, 1x C-9)
435th Security Police Squadron (90 troops, 2x Fuchs, 3x M113, 1x HMMWV-FS)

608th Tactical Airlift Group (Rhein-Main AB, Germany)
Forces: 60 troops, 2x C-23

[Legbreaker]

Seems fairly reasonable I think, especially if you consider about half of those aircraft to be not flight-worthy due to some small technical problem or damage they can't fix with the available resources.

Allows just enough for a Corps commander to call upon if they really, reeeeeeaaaaaaallllllllllly need their arses pulled out of the fire, and they're willing to sell their soul, plus those of their entire Corps HQ.

...and all their first born sons too.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

That's nice but...c'mon, give us a squad or two of OV-10s! You know you want to! What's not to like? :D

[Panther Al]

Very reasonable, even if they all are flyable. Not enough to unbalance things, especially with the fuel shortages, but strong enough to be one of those things that helps keep the lid on when people start thinking of tossing baby nukes around again. I figure that the WarPac probably has an equivalent number of aircraft - more of the lower grade stuff as the better got the most attention, but in 2000 a flying MiG21 is pretty good.

[Legbreaker]

That's nice but...c'mon, give us a squad or two of OV-10s! You know you want to! What's not to like? :D

A nice slow target able to get shot out of the sky by a kid with a slingshot? Yep, I'm liking that a lot! :p
It's right up there with using ultralights as artillery spotters. :D

[Webstral]

That's a lot of work. Thanks for putting in the time and energy.

[Rainbow Six]

Nice job. I like the idea of the 401st TFW going to Akrotiri.

There may be the possibility of some Wings also having US Navy and Marine Corps aircraft that found themselves homeless after the carriers they were based on were sunk.

[Ironside]

Many thanks for all the hard work.

[Graebarde]

That's nice but...c'mon, give us a squad or two of OV-10s! You know you want to! What's not to like? :D

You refering to the Bronco's or the new designation of the Hawg?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

You refering to the Bronco's or the new designation of the Hawg?

Broncos.

[Graebarde]

Broncos.

TY

[kalos72]

Just found this amazing post! Love it...

Question, could the aircraft be "crated" and moved via ship possibly?

I am trying to determine how or if, theses assets move back home within Operation Omega. I am thinking the expanded version versus straight canon.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think we'd at this point be down to light propeller aircraft, a smattering of small jets throughout the entire world, and yes, the hated ultralights and dirigibles. The amount of work required to field on Eagle outside of the Middle East would mean that they were almost never flown.

A don't forget gliders and especially sailplanes for reconnaissance duties.

[Olefin]

Most likely most of what is still flying would be transport aircraft of various types, with prop jobs like the Hercules being more abundant than jet powered ones.

As for attack and fighter aircraft, outside of the Middle East and France you are probably looking at A-10's and older smaller jets that were easier to maintain -especially as the F-15's, later model F-16's and F-14's really don't have other jet fighters to go up against. If there are any F-15's still being used it would be the E in an attack role and then only when it was needed for specialized bombs or missiles the A-10 couldn't carry.

I don't quite see it getting down to only ultralights - there is still enough fuel for some air operations, just not for anything large scale. And while a couple of Cessna's armed with machine guns or rocket pods doesn't sound like much, its a lot better than no air support at all.

The interesting thing is that now spare parts may actually be quite abundant - i.e. you have an awful lot of grounded jets and helicopters lying about for a relatively few active duty jets. It may be more a case of getting the parts to where you have the jets - i.e. if you have 15 grounded F-15's in Germany you can strip for parts but your three flyable planes are in the UK you have a little delivery issue.

[Raellus]

And you need skilled aviation mechanics. That's the kicker. Are they available in the numbers needed to keep substantial numbers of combat aircraft operational? Considering the man-hours required to keep something like an Eagle or Falcon airworthy, that's probably a bigger obstacle to flight ops than the availability of serviceable airframes, spare parts, and possibly even jet fuel.

[kalos72]

So then with a sort of Morrow approach, do you think aircraft will go back to the old ways?

Back to P-47's and and C119's?

Surely the resources to keep an already manufactured Eagle, with many dead spares sitting around, would be less then to re manufacture and entire line of aircraft no?

[Olefin]

And again it may be an issue of where the mechanics are versus where the planes are.

Would be an interesting adventure - you are sent by MilGov to escort a group of skilled mechanics and techs from an airbase that has no planes in flyable condition, along with any spare parts you can transport, thru marauder controlled territory to get back to the one base in their hands with flyable aircraft and fuel- but where a lack of personnel has kept them from using all but one or two aircraft.

Delivery of several trained mechanics and aviation techs could be worth quite a nice reward if it put the local MilGov air base back into business as a going concern.

[kalos72]

I am not familiar with the support needed for these modern aircraft but...with 2300 people...supporting 23 aircraft...that seems like this UK asset is very valuable if your thought on skilled mechanics and techs is correct.

Can these aircraft be moved by a cargo ship?

In the years to come, do you think armies will stay trying to keep these modern aircraft running or try to run into a Morrow type process of re-manufacturing some of the older piston driven aircraft?

I like the idea of designing an XC-120 using 40ft Conex containers... :)

[rcaf_777]

I am not familiar with the support needed for these modern aircraft but...with 2300 people...supporting 23 aircraft...that seems like this UK asset is very valuable if your thought on skilled mechanics and techs is correct.

Can these aircraft be moved by a cargo ship?

In the years to come, do you think armies will stay trying to keep these modern aircraft running or try to run into a Morrow type process of re-manufacturing some of the older piston driven aircraft?

1. Let not forgot is take about 7-10 persons if not more to maintain an aircraft, plus with squadrons you still need armorers for weapons, fueling personnel, and support staff for food, supply, weather, intel ect. Also I can also see Pilots and Ground Crew assigned to security shift when not on ops, why because no base is 100% secure in TW

I could also see certain personnel being loaned out to other units if nothing pressing was happened. I.E. Airforce Techs are loaned to the army to work on repair a long range communications site

2. Anything can be loaded into cargo ship provided it's small enough to fit into the hold. Wing can come off and engines and other components can we removed, but you have skilled personnel with the tools to break it down and load it. Do you have them on the other end to put the aircraft back together?

3. Weather you have piston or jet aircraft, you have the same problem, where's the Fuel. Not to mention changing to new aircraft means training pilots and ground crew, I think it comes down to resources, the USAF might wait for more AVGAS or JP-8 to come in.

[kalos72]

Agreed. Not saying they have plenty but...all things considered I think there is enough skilled people to rebuild/retrain a new force over time.

Spare parts and fuel are the issues really.

I am sure there are thousands of little electronics that are REQUIRED to operate some of these craft. Hard to make on the fly so to speak...

[rcaf_777]

I am working a USAF Salvage Team Group, which travel around looking for usable aircraft parts

[RN7]

I think we'd at this point be down to light propeller aircraft, a smattering of small jets throughout the entire world, and yes, the hated ultralights and dirigibles. The amount of work required to field on Eagle outside of the Middle East would mean that they were almost never flown.

A don't forget gliders and especially sailplanes for reconnaissance duties.

Well your welcome to your own interpretation of what American airpower would be like in Europe in T2K. But there would have been hundreds if not over a thousand US military aircraft deployed to the European Theatre in T2K, and many would have survived and this list would include aircraft that remain in a flyable condition but would not be flying due to a shortage of fuel and parts. Its purely subjective but so is the assumption that NATO would have absolutely no Avgas supply by 2000, or that every airbase, storage and supply depot was destroyed or abandoned and that no aircraft would be left in a flyable condition.

[Olefin]

the chance that there is no avgas at all left is not realistic - there is no way that every tank at every airport, every storage terminal, every railcar, etc.. is gone - we know France has avgas for instance - and where there is a scarce supply there is a black market - so no matter how well guarded and rationed it is some will make it to the Germans and Brits and Americans

[lordroel]

Question the 32nd Tactical Fighter Squadron operates as part of the 32d Tactical Fighter Group out of Soesterberg Air Base, the only United States Air force unit to do so, would they still be at end of the war be deployed in the Netherlands or would the squadron be operating from United States Air force bases in West Germany.

[swaghauler]

the chance that there is no avgas at all left is not realistic - there is no way that every tank at every airport, every storage terminal, every railcar, etc.. is gone - we know France has avgas for instance - and where there is a scarce supply there is a black market - so no matter how well guarded and rationed it is some will make it to the Germans and Brits and Americans
In addition, the vast majority of US aircraft use JP-8 (I've seen TONS of this) or JP-12 (never used this newer jet fuel). This is a form of purified kerosene NOT Avgas (which is high test gasoline). Avgas requires several steps to produce a sufficiently pure and high powered gasoline. This can only be done using Light-Sweet Crude oil. This oil can only be found in the Middle East and a few wells in Romania and Nigeria. Thus, small aircraft like the Cesna, who are dependent on Avgas, would be grounded by a lack of fuel. The bulk of the world's remaining Crude is heavier silted crude more suitable for Fuel Oil or Diesel. This crude COULD be refined into Kerosene but the cost would be greater. However, Virgin Airlines proved that you can fly a large airliner on purified Biodiesel so the large transport aircraft could still be flying.
One more note about fuel. There would be plenty of JP-8 in any US Theater after 1990. The US Army began a program called "One Fuel Forward" in 1989. This program removed ALL gas powered support vehicles from service (all the Chevy and Dodge SUVs, all Jeeps, and all other gas powered equipment but the Abrams). All of the remaining Diesels were then given JP-8 jet fuel to run so that the Army was only trucking one fuel type to the front. This did set off The Law of Unintended Consequences though. This fuel had detergents in it that scrubbed "scale" from vehicles that had used the dirtier Diesel. We were going through a fuel filter about every three weeks for about six months. We would have been in BIG trouble if we had to deploy during the fuel change (which was completed in August of 1990).

[Targan]

We've had extensive discussions on Twilight War fuel stocks before, and I recall that a major problem would be that even though there would be stockpiles of various grades of gasoline and kerosene, those fuels degrade over time until they become either less effective or unusable depending on the engines they're being put through. When I'm home from work I'll search through the old threads for the specifics.

[RN7]

There is also the issue of the North Sea oil rigs. Even canon states that the British have secretly reactivated a few offshore oil rigs, and there is strong possibility that Britain has a still functional oil refinery in Teeside facing the North Sea. Small oil resources and refining capacity by pre-war standards but its very significant by Twilight War standards and is under military control.

[Olefin]

Fuel does degrade but if its properly stored and sealed it can last for years - not indefinitely of course but we are only talking a short span of years here with the war - even with the TDM and other late 1997 attacks there would have still been fuel being delivered probably until around mid spring to early summer of 1998, possibly further until the last of the electric generation facilities that were still functioning ran out of fuel or had to shut down or were taken out in the 1998 weak nuclear exchange

now if you are talking 2005, 2010 time frame thats really pushing it for storage - but 2000-2001 it should still be in very good shape if its properly stored and capped

to give an example - I had a gasoline can with five gallons of gas in it that I put a stabilizer in to keep it from getting water in it - used it this spring after two years in storage - worked like a charm

now without that stabilizer and if I had left the vent cap off - no way

[Olefin]

There is also the issue of the North Sea oil rigs. Even canon states that the British have secretly reactivated a few offshore oil rigs, and there is strong possibility that Britain has a still functional oil refinery in Teeside facing the North Sea. Small oil resources and refining capacity by pre-war standards but its very significant by Twilight War standards and is under military control.

Also keep in mind that the French still have working refineries and the Russians do at Ploesti (or at least did in my timeline till we nuked it) as well

and if there is one thing that is constant in all wars its a black market - you know some Soviet or French supply sergeant for the right price will "lose to marauders" some aviation fuel for the right price

[Apache6]

RN7:

If the cannon has 2d Marine Divsision in Europe, then I'd recommend that you add 2d Marine Aircraft Wing (MAW), and group most if not all of the Marine Corps and a lot of the Navy aircraft/units into 2d MAW.

Also, I think the USAF (and I know USMC) uses a Group (Commanded by full Colonels) as the intermediate command echelon between Squadrons and Wings.

For at least the Marines, I'd add a bunch of non-standard stuff, including ultralights and what ever else they can get into the air to serve as air recon, artillery observation, casualty evacuation and light attack. See the discussion I posted on 'improvised aircraft' on the other thread regarding T2K, close air support.