49th Armoured Division [Archive]

Olefin

05-04-2012, 07:40 PM

I dont agree with the idea of combat losses of tanks from July 2000 to the 2001 Howling Wildnerness and have stated that before - they were going up against marauders armed almost exclusively with a collection of small arms, both military and civilian - not against tanks. A Stingray may not be what I would chose to take on a T-72 with but against a guy with a SAW or an M-16 its not even close.

As for the tanks breaking down thats a possiblity - but if so a unit like the 49th would have M88's to be able to retrieve those tanks. Tanks are precious units that MilGov would do anything to conserve and retrieve especially after the US already abandoned so many tanks in Europe. And its not like they would be running out of fuel and having to be abandoned - they are basically right next to one of the last major fuel sources in the US. So even if they werent running for some reason they would make great pillboxes - just like they were at Krakow. And then when and if you get spare parts you can put them back into operation.

Unit desertion - I dont see Texas National Guard personnel deserting instead of staying with the only unit that has a chance to take back large areas of Texas - especially with the Mexican Army fragmenting and Soviet Division Cuba (as per Red Star, Lone Star) either falling apart or heading out of the state any way they can.

So instead of staying together they go home as individuals and thus basically hand over Texas to the marauders, Mexicans and Soviets and instead of rescuing their families and their state from the occupation they get to consign them for good to it? Sorry but I know guys from the 49th - there are two chances of that happening - slim and none.

The 49th falling apart as it did is one of several reasons that Howling Wildnerness makes no sense. Especially considering that without them there goes the Oklahoma oil wells and any chance ever of retaking Texas.

And they bring home 43,000 men and no one in MilGov sends any reinforcements at all to defend oil wells and refineries which are described as vital to MilGov's power? So they evacuate multiple armored divisions with men who are experts at maintaining tanks, fighting tanks, commanding tanks and know exactly how to fight a Soviet armored division - and none of them ever get sent to the one remaining armored division in the US?

Again its why I ignore Howling Wildnerness as making no sense at all unless MilGov is somehow supposed to be a total collection of ignoramuses who somehow just throw away that collection of experienced men and allow most of their remaining military power to just waste away.

I love what you did James and its a very good read but unfortunately when you get into Howling Wildnerness timeframes it just falls apart just like the division supposedly did.

Its not specifically what you posted, its that you followed a canon that frankly I and several others feel was screwed up by what some of the authors of GDW did to take a timeline and a game and ruin it by doing everything they could do to destroy the US and turn their back on their earlier works and in the process really make the US military leadership look pretty foolish. (letting 43000 trained men go to waste in a world where such men are literally priceless is pretty much the height of stupidity after all)

Targan

05-05-2012, 01:41 AM

My preference is to see Howling Wilderness used as the basis for ongoing works. So nice work, James. I like it.

Legbreaker

05-05-2012, 02:21 AM

My preference is to see Howling Wilderness used as the basis for ongoing works. So nice work, James. I like it.

Agreed. Very good worth James. Obviously some effort made to make it all work and in my opinion rather successfully.

James Langham

05-05-2012, 02:36 AM

While I have no intention of reopening the canon v non-canon debate, I think it's worth me setting out my philosophy on writing my articles.

* There are many areas of canon that make little sense.

* There are many areas of real life that make no sense (just read any history book).

* I think some of the events in canon are debatable to say the least.

* Canon has contradictions - see the artillery for the School Brigade where it states a unit is added at one point and that no artillery was ever added at another.

* Real historians contradict themselves too.

* Even if we all sat together with a blank piece of paper we would never manage to create a background we all agreed on.

* My writing is NOT canon, unless Far Future needs a writer (hint, hint).

* I try and make my works compatible with canon so they are more use to more people.

* My writing style is intended to be a historian writing a history, historians make mistakes and are sometimes biased, you can pass errors off as this.

* Please feel free to use my articles as starting points for non-canon campaigns and change what you like.

I believe everyone on the forum loves the game in their own way (let's be fair, to be following a game after so long says a lot), everyone's campaign is different and we can all take ideas, modify and adapt them to suit.

James Langham

05-05-2012, 02:53 AM

Olefin, please don't consider the bit above a criticism, I have many issues with canon, especially in the UK but as I stated I'm trying to stick to canon (and will always note where I don't and why).

I've made a few comments to explain my rationales below.

I dont agree with the idea of combat losses of tanks from July 2000 to the 2001 Howling Wildnerness and have stated that before - they were going up against marauders armed almost exclusively with a collection of small arms, both military and civilian - not against tanks. A Stingray may not be what I would chose to take on a T-72 with but against a guy with a SAW or an M-16 its not even close.

Agreed but guerrillas or marauders don't need to take them on. It's a big area and smart ones will just be elsewhere.

As for the tanks breaking down thats a possiblity - but if so a unit like the 49th would have M88's to be able to retrieve those tanks. Tanks are precious units that MilGov would do anything to conserve and retrieve especially after the US already abandoned so many tanks in Europe. And its not like they would be running out of fuel and having to be abandoned - they are basically right next to one of the last major fuel sources in the US. So even if they werent running for some reason they would make great pillboxes - just like they were at Krakow. And then when and if you get spare parts you can put them back into operation.

fuel is ok but parts will be a problem, even if they are produced you have to get them there. Pillboxes are great if you have to hold a position but there are few strategic points to hold, they could be bypassed. Once the retreat starts, getting to the vehicles is a difficulty in itself (an M88 crew with a couple of HMMWVs and a truck might make a great campaign group trying to retrieve precious vehicles).

Unit desertion - I dont see Texas National Guard personnel deserting instead of staying with the only unit that has a chance to take back large areas of Texas - especially with the Mexican Army fragmenting and Soviet Division Cuba (as per Red Star, Lone Star) either falling apart or heading out of the state any way they can.

Once you start withdrawing that falls apart, by 2000 loyalty to a nation is probably fading fast, families are now the big thing. I do plan to expand on my thoughts here in later drafts as this is a contentious point.

So instead of staying together they go home as individuals and thus basically hand over Texas to the marauders, Mexicans and Soviets and instead of rescuing their families and their state from the occupation they get to consign them for good to it? Sorry but I know guys from the 49th - there are two chances of that happening - slim and none.

We have the benefit of hindsight as to what will happen. We also need to consider the effect of the war on people, by the timeframe here, many of the 49th will be draftees or middle aged reservists with families.

The 49th falling apart as it did is one of several reasons that Howling Wildnerness makes no sense. Especially considering that without them there goes the Oklahoma oil wells and any chance ever of retaking Texas.

And they bring home 43,000 men and no one in MilGov sends any reinforcements at all to defend oil wells and refineries which are described as vital to MilGov's power? So they evacuate multiple armored divisions with men who are experts at maintaining tanks, fighting tanks, commanding tanks and know exactly how to fight a Soviet armored division - and none of them ever get sent to the one remaining armored division in the US?

Again its why I ignore Howling Wildnerness as making no sense at all unless MilGov is somehow supposed to be a total collection of ignoramuses who somehow just throw away that collection of experienced men and allow most of their remaining military power to just waste away.

See previous post.

I love what you did James and its a very good read but unfortunately when you get into Howling Wildnerness timeframes it just falls apart just like the division supposedly did.

Thanks, I appreciate that, hopefully even if you don't use this other articles I do will be useful for you.

Its not specifically what you posted, its that you followed a canon that frankly I and several others feel was screwed up by what some of the authors of GDW did to take a timeline and a game and ruin it by doing everything they could do to destroy the US and turn their back on their earlier works and in the process really make the US military leadership look pretty foolish. (letting 43000 trained men go to waste in a world where such men are literally priceless is pretty much the height of stupidity after all)

A quick random thought here, how many could we remove with a disease outbreak on their return?

Rainbow Six

05-05-2012, 04:35 AM

James, well done - that's a well put together piece and is a good read.

A quick random thought here, how many could we remove with a disease outbreak on their return?

Or by having one - or more - ships sunk during the crossing? It doesn't even need to be as a result of Soviet action - look at the Titanic.

Ironside

05-05-2012, 05:28 AM

And the Titanic was brand new, not worn out and undermaintained which is the likely condition of any ship by 2000.

Rainbow Six

05-05-2012, 06:09 AM

And the Titanic was brand new, not worn out and undermaintained which is the likely condition of any ship by 2000.

Exactly. How many of their navigation aids would not be working? And would they be under blackout at night just in case there was that remotest chance that a Soviet sub was lurking out there?

Olefin

05-05-2012, 02:08 PM

"My writing is NOT canon, unless Far Future needs a writer (hint, hint)."

Actually James I hope they do want you as a writer of new material - we could certainly use it!

"fuel is ok but parts will be a problem, even if they are produced you have to get them there. Pillboxes are great if you have to hold a position but there are few strategic points to hold, they could be bypassed. Once the retreat starts, getting to the vehicles is a difficulty in itself (an M88 crew with a couple of HMMWVs and a truck might make a great campaign group trying to retrieve precious vehicles)."

May I make a suggestion then - how about having the difference in tanks be covered by having them recovered and used as pillboxes to defend their HQ - i.e. Fort Sill? They would only be pillboxes and not operational tanks - so the HW count would still be right as to operational tanks but the recovered but non-maneuverable tanks would be at Fort Sill used to defend their main base?

I.e. as at Krakow - they have a bunch of tanks but most of them are just armored pillboxes - their maneuverable strength is much less.

And they could use the parts from the now pillboxes to keep the rest going.

Oh and Legbreaker and Targan - we know your position - you have stated it a lot. But for many of us - Chico, myself and a multitude of others we dont share it.

And James you are right about the canon being changeable - for one in my campaign when I played MilGov was part of the op to grab the refinery and Gulf Forty. So know they have a lot of fuel to play with in Texas. So the 49th there is coming to life again and in the process of liberating large parts of Texas in conjunction with the Grange and MilGov.

I would say this James - having MilGov send no men to the 49th at all from Norfolk is a huge mistake in HW - one that would never have happened. No matter how much of a canon defender or canon attacker anyone is there is no way that they dont send at least a couple thousand men to the one unit that is defending the Oklahoma oil wells and refineries.

Saying they dont just stretches believeability to the breaking point no matter how hard Leg or Targan want to say canon, canon, canon

You dont withdraw a bunch of tankers and armored cavalrymen and dont send a single man to the last armored division the US has - and we know that errors like that have already occurred in canon.

If 35 tanks can appear magically in the RDF US forces with no explanation given, if the size of the SOCCENT forces can be totally overlooked, if a French fleet can be mentioned but then not detailed in the RDF - then I bet a couple thousand men heading to the 49th and it still being at around 3000 men but most of the old TNG guys gone over the hill can be overlooked as well.

Olefin

05-05-2012, 02:18 PM

We know the ships and the men made it here intact - that is canon. But disease afterward is a possibility. However keep in mind that these guys already survived the Carpathian Flu and a bunch of bio weapons in Europe - any bug that killed them with the immunities they have built up and drugs they would have been given would probably depopulate the East Coast before they started even getting sick.

James Langham

05-05-2012, 03:56 PM

Olefin

05-05-2012, 09:34 PM

James - if there had been an uber plague that wiped out those men then it would have spread all over the East Coast from Norfolk. The fact that so few of those men ever go to any existing US units is yet another reason why HW needs to be ignored.

Simply put - Wiseman needed to come up with a way for the US to fall apart and not take Texas back - and he did it by not doing what the US would have obviously done - which is send 8-10K men to the units in OK and LA and take back Texas from the Mexican Army.

Plus keep in mind - 6000 men from Europe went to the RDF, with Kings Ransom written after the arrived - and those men didnt bring an uber plague there. Thus there was no plague.

Sorry James - wish it was different but what really happened was bad writing at GDW. Its another reason why what Chico was proposing - i.e. starting over at Going Home and this time having it make sense - sounds better every time you look at the issues with the timeline once you get to HW and Kidnapped.

Webstral

05-05-2012, 11:53 PM

James, I skimmed the document and fount it very well-organized and clearly well-researched. Nice going! I hope I'll have some time to look at your work more carefully soon.

Olefin

05-06-2012, 06:00 PM

By the way James - dont let my criticism of your following the HW canon in any way detract from the excellent job that you did. Overall it was a very good effort.

Webstral

05-09-2012, 06:00 PM

James, I forgot to tell you that I love the work you do with photos. They add a pleasing dimension to your work.

Olefin

05-09-2012, 06:07 PM

James, I forgot to tell you that I love the work you do with photos. They add a pleasing dimension to your work.

Second the motion

Webstral

05-09-2012, 06:11 PM

I tend to agree that not having any of the TFO troops get sent to Oklahoma stretches credulity. Fighting men and machines will be drawn to oil like iron filings to a magnet.

Recently, we had a thread about the Mississippi Watershed and the enormous advantage it gives to the US in terms of speeding the recovery. Depending on the state of the locks around Tulsa, barge traffic from the Mississippi could reach eastern Oklahoma. Moving a thousand men and their personal gear via coastal waterways from Virginia to the mouth of the Atchafalaya, then upriver to Tulsa by barge would be more economical than almost any other means. Provided Milgov has some measure of control over the water route, it’s also not much subject to interdiction by the usual suspects. The real drawback is the time involved. A thousand troops have to be fed the whole way. Still, if the end result is greater protection for the oil, it’s a no-brainer. As an added bonus, the barges can go back downriver with tanks of petroleum. Win-win, from the Milgov point of view.

Webstral

05-09-2012, 06:37 PM

The casualties suffered by US units between 01 JUL 00 and 01 APR 01 may be a reflection of the quality of new recruits and the challenge of tackling marauders. As WW2 dragged on, the Luftwaffe changed from a force of well-trained airmen to a force with a kernel of exceptional veterans surrounded by a gaggle of poorly-trained freshmen. US formations in CONUS may reflect a similar state of being. Training probably isn’t what anyone would like it to be for most units. When an infantry company moves to clear out a marauder nest, you get a lot of inexperienced privates doing what poorly-trained soldiers do everywhere. Ongoing operations yield steady attrition. New privates probably are the ones most likely to desert once they decide their chances of making buck sergeant aren’t very good. Close quarters combat yields very high casualties.

I do agree that the Howling Wilderness numbers reflect an agenda directed towards chaos. If chaos weren’t the desired end, then the formations in CONUS might have retained more of their 01 JUL 00 strength. Counterbalancing the stream of casualties would be concerted efforts at providing realistic training focused on the basics (above all discipline) and a recruiting effort that would remind the population that the riflemen eat regularly. Some commanders would do better others at getting seasoned E-6 and E-7 into training positions.

Another factor is ambition on the part of the chain of command. A lot of US commanders may try to control more territory than is feasible. Again, losses add up.

One of the reasons I haven’t felt any shame in assigning comparatively high manpower to Fort Huachuca is that Huachuca has a lot of the problem that face units in other parts of the country beat. The food supply is pretty secure, although there are some scary moments in early 1999. The manpower supply is pretty secure because the food supply is pretty secure. There are only a couple of set-piece battles between US and Mexican forces in Arizona after 1998. Most of the action is fought at a fairly low level. The fighting along the border is conducted mostly on the US side, and the Americans can bring up reinforcements more-or-less at will. There are losses, to be certain, but the losses don’t add up the same way as they do elsewhere. The fighting in eastern Arizona in 1999 also produces losses, but most of the fighting takes place under conditions that favor the firepower of 111th Brigade. The Huachuca command specifically avoids entering Phoenix in force before 2001 due to anxiety about losses in CQB.

Olefin

05-09-2012, 07:00 PM

I totally agree with you Webstral about HW reflecting a tendency towards chaos. And its why I reject both it and Kidnapped as canon. The whole story of the modulels up until then was order coming out of chaos - i.e. New America defeated in the Ozarks, the Last Submarine being found and used to bring the scientists to America with fusion tech, Gulf Forty's oil being captured by the players and most likely turned over to MilGov directly or thru the Grange to MilGov in exchange for recognition of a Texas Republic, Allegheny Uprising finding all those supplies

hell even going home - you dont bring home 43,000 men for nothing - they could have stayed in Europe and done more good for the US and its allies

you bring them home to rebuild your armed forces so that you can make areas of peace and order to start rebuilding, not just let them all desert except for 2000 men or so

then suddenly all goes to chaos and the US collapses and the US Army basically turns marauder or deserts

it was a betrayal of the whole rest of the timeline

and seeing the 49th in six months waste away when its the only force that can hold those oil wells and refineries in Oklahoma and take back Texas without any reinforcements - sorry but thats about as believeable as a Giant Dinosaur trashing Tokyo on a regular basis

and you can see what it did to the game - after that it dwindles away to modules set in Europe and a couple of source books and its all over - and why? because they wrote themselves into a Mad Max corner

for me its the same with James work here - its a great work till it gets to HW - and then suddenly the division falls apart - sorry but no dice

Legbreaker

05-10-2012, 08:10 AM

I tend to agree that not having any of the TFO troops get sent to Oklahoma stretches credulity. Fighting men and machines will be drawn to oil like iron filings to a magnet.

The main problem is transporting them there. TF34 as far as we know had little more than fumes in the tank upon landing on the east coast, and the engines certainly aren't in a good way after burning unrefined crude. As much as the US might have wanted more oil from the Germans, I just can't see them parting with a drop more than they absolutely had to.

So, with sea transport effectively out of the question, overland is the only way to go. There's nothing to say some troops, perhaps even a couple of thousand were sent overland to reinforce various units, the 49th AD being one of them, but without fuel and transportation infrastructure, it's slow going. Any reinforcements who don't desert along the way aren't likely to arrive until after the Howling Wilderness date of April 2001, especially given the harsh conditions travellers would face in the winter months.

In fact, we have the knowledge from Kidnapped of large numbers of people shifting westwards in 2001. Perhaps some of these make it all the way and don't die of starvation, disease, radiation sickness, marauders, or any number of other reasons.

In July 2000, we also know the 49th was still fairly strong. It could well be that at the time Omega was planned, the 49th were low on the list for reinforcement compared to other units. As has been pointed out, the 49th between July 00 and April 01 have suffered serious losses, and communicating the true state of affairs could take a long time, especially if verification was required.

IMO all the details in the books can be explained with minimal effort. There's no need to automatically throw them out just because the reasons don't jump out and slap us in the face.

Olefin

05-10-2012, 08:23 AM

Leg,

Its the last armored division the US has left and they just brought home thousands of men who have armored warfare experience.

The division is seriously short of men and is guarding hugely important installations that even HW said were critical to MilGov's power base and ability to conduct operations.

And they had five months to go from Norfolk to Oklahoma.

As for transport - there are operational steam engines in PA that could be used a la Going Home (presumably the players would arrive that way and give MilGov a great idea for transport within the US) to get them across the country pretty quickly and if players can arm a train with whatever they have on hand just think what the government can do or what you can do with shipboard armament mounted on railcars

They would have got men to the 49th guaranteed

They arent the MP's up in NE who are doing food distribution - the 49th is the ballgame for retaking Texas and holding those oil refineries

Lets say this - I would be open to accepting all the rest of HW but the destruction of the 90th Corps, the wasting away of the 49th and no reinforcement and the loss of those oil facilities - sorry but that part of the canon is BS and everyone who has ever served with the US military or had anything to do with the US military knows that.

MilGov isnt a bunch of complete idiots. Its a military government lookign at keeping the military in business no matter what. You dont throw away assets like oil refineries and oil wells and the last operational armored division in the US when you have 40,000 plus men sitting in Norfolk.

As for communication problems - sorry but they are in OK and MilGov is in CO. Thats practically next door. They would know exactly what was going on in that state. Hell by horseback they would get messages in a week or less.

Plus I know people who served in the 49th and have shown them the module - and after they finished laughing their butts off they said there is no chance in hell that situation happens where they desert and leave Texas in the hands of Mexicans, Russians and the Texian jerks.

The only place the division would desert to would be en masse, as a unit, to retake Texas. Especially once the guys from Red Star, Lone Star got back and told just how bad the situation was for the Mexicans and Russians in Texas.

Given that I consider anything about the 49th and the destruction of the 90th Corps to be exactly what the City of Angels is - i.e. apocrypha and not part of the game.

Legbreaker

05-10-2012, 08:53 AM

We've talked over all this a dozen times before. There's explanations for all of it which I'm not about to repeat again!

As for steam ships, what's their capacity? Where are they getting the coal? If they're wood fired, are they designed to burn it, or will that require greater maintenance? What about enemy forces they'll face along the way, are there sufficient warships with fuel and ammunition to escort them the whole way. Can the escorts be spared from where they start out? Can the steam ships for that matter be spared for such a long and potentially deadly journey? What about weather, will storms be a problem? We know the global climate has changed so Captains can't rely on historical probabilities, and there's no weather bureau left to analyse the sparse data available and make predictions.

There are hundreds, even thousands of problems to be overcome. Many of the problems could very well cause the necessary delays to prevent reinforcements and redeployments which in an ideal, pre-nuke world would happen.

Looking at the canon material might well raise lots of questions about why certain things haven't happened the way they might be expected to, but lets not dismiss it all out of hand without first exploring a few explanations.

As an example, why was the US 5th ID so far from friendly lines when it was overrun. Why was the US 8th ID so far beyond it's Corps brother units? On the surface it makes little sense, but once you dig down and see the big picture it comes together (see the various threads where this topic has been discussed down to the last detail already).

It is my understanding the war was gamed out by the writers before the books were written. The books are a result of that wargaming. 2300 was likewise gamed out over many many months in the mid 80's using T2K as the starting point.

So, the issue to me isn't that apparently arbitrary decisions were made, but understanding how and why those decisions came to be made during the evolution of the T2K world history.

Olefin

05-10-2012, 11:15 AM

I am not talking about steam ships - I am talking about steam locomotives. I live in PA and there are a bunch of operational steam locomotives on various small railroads here. And PA is overflowing with coal.

Add in the PA railroad museum that has the shops of the Strasburg Railroad right across the street and connected to it by rail and you can pretty rapdily put together 4-5 steam locomotives that can pull trains back and forth between PA and OK. You may have to fight your way thru.

But if guys can do it in Poland in Going Home they can sure as hell do it in the US.

As for the authors - sorry but they made one hell of a lot of mistakes and we have discussed those too. Frankly no military would be that stupid to not reinforce that division and make it a priority.

And before you go all canon on me - the game basically stopped in mid April of 2001 as far as the US goes. There were a few isolated Challenge articles but thats it. Any projections in HW are just that - projections - and in this case of one author and not GDW as a whole.

And in the case of HW it was a dead end. Nothing came out of that module except a few articles in Challenge that could occur as they were even without HW.

It has already has been pointed out HW shot big time holes in previously released modules - i.e. they didnt even fact check their own stuff that good when they did it. They are infamous for that - i.e. the Challenge magazine article that has a nuclear sub commander in charge of the Hyman Rickover. If they had him then why wasnt he in Last Submarine.

Answer - because the authors probably didnt even read other peoples modules half the time.

You can defend canon all you want - but its flat out wrong here. And the mention of the BMP being with the 49th for years in the Soviet Vehicle Guide and eventually ending up at the HQ building at Fort Sill shows that other GDW authors thought the same thing, at least as far as the 49th Division and what would happen to it.

If 90th Corps is destroyed and they get driven out of OK then there is no Fort Sill left.

Some of the modules have stuff that makes no sense and shoudl be ignored - and frankly unless Far Future gets off the dime and starts issuing new modules we are the ones now who dictate the game, not GDW and not Far Future.

You can play it as you like and I hope you do so - but as far as I am concerned and for several others on the board the canon for the 49th needs to be changed - and in my game and campaigns and any modules or adventures I write it will be.

And again you can choose to ignore them and go with Mad Max - and if you do go right ahead and have fun doing so. I am not saying anyone has to do anything at all to canon if they dont want to.

Canon is what we make of it until we get new stuff otherwise from Far Future or whoever one day buys them out.

Olefin

05-10-2012, 04:23 PM

Oh and to sum up yet another reason why Howling Wildnerness has issues, lets point this out:

They couldnt even keep track of the divisions they were having waste away in the space of two pages

On Page 16, the 85th Division is supposedly down to 300 men after absorbing 1000 replacements including 600 from Europe and as of April 2001 is at Fort Beauragard Louisiana

Now lets go to page 18

Here is says as of March 2001 the 85th was absorbed into the 197th and is part of it at Memphis

Meaning they couldnt even keep the story straight over the course of two pages - thats very bad editing and bad editing is indicative of a bad story.

As for reinforcements and those who say they couldnt get troops to the 49th. They got 600 to Louisiana but they couldnt get any to OK for the 49th? Its not that much further - if it was by ship then all they have to do is go up the river and a short overland trip. If it was by train same thing. If by land the same thing. Either you cant get men to the 85th or you get men to both divisions, simple as that.

So a rational military command structure decides you reinforce the 85th that had its head handed to it by a bunch of marauders but not the 49th that fought the Russians to a standstill and are the only armored force left between them and Colorado and is guarding basically the gas for the whole Midwest and Plains states (oh and by the way Colorado too). Ah no.

And the module states that they only used 1400 out of 43,000 men for reinforcements?

Ok so that means we were supposed to believe that MilGov, headed up by the military thas has fought a four year war decides to evacuate that many men, gives away hundreds of tanks, armored vehicles, artillery pieces, etc.., abandons who knows how many airplanes and helos as well to get them home. And then those same leaders who just literally gave away equipment that would take 20 years to rebuild even if they had the power and the factories to build them in order to get those men home, then uses a grand total of 3 PERCENT of them as reinforcements and allows the other 97 PERCENT to desert or go to waste and not use them?

yes its a game - but its a game grounded in reality - and Howling Wilderness is a total deluded fantasy if that is what the orginal authors wanted us to accept without question.

Thats what Chico and the others in the DC group were saying all along, that it was time to put HW and Kidnapped on the shelf and start over again at April of 2001 and make a timeline that made sense.

As for those who said they sat down and war gamed it first, I say this.

If the authors, some of whom either are or were on this board, war gamed a situation where 97 percent of evacuated US troops desert or were allowed to go to waste and they considered that realistic then one of two events happened. Either they either had some serious issues with the US military or they were seriously not thinking straight at the time.

That is not a rational event. Frankly I would believe an alien invasion before I would believe that.

Either the game is a rational one or its not. I loved Paranoia - it was a great game but rational it wasnt. I loved Harpoon - a great game and totally rational. Its high time a rational event replaced the irrationality of the events of Feb thru April of 2001 as portrayed in Howling Wildnernes and Kidnapped and both of them got put on the same shelf with City of Angels - i.e. the rewrite shelf.

Webstral

05-10-2012, 04:24 PM

The main problem is transporting them there. TF34 as far as we know had little more than fumes in the tank upon landing on the east coast, and the engines certainly aren't in a good way after burning unrefined crude. As much as the US might have wanted more oil from the Germans, I just can't see them parting with a drop more than they absolutely had to. So, with sea transport effectively out of the question, overland is the only way to go.

Sail, my friend. Sail. The East Coast may not have an abundance of clipper ships in 1997, but there are hundreds of thousands of single mast sailing vessels in operation from Bar Harbor to Brownsville at the end of 1997. The majority of them aren’t going to be available anymore at the end of 2000. However, 200 of them each carrying 5 troops in addition to the normal crew could move 1,000 soldiers to the mouth of the Atchafalaya River during the winter of 2000-2001.

Once the nukes start popping in Europe and Asia in mid-1997, the US Navy is going to take a very keen interest in the nation’s fleet of sailing vessels. We could talk all day about the variety of possible arrangements for making them available after the TDM. That would make an interesting thread. At any rate, moving 1,000 soldiers from Norfolk to Louisiana using small sailing vessels would take some planning and some organizing, to be sure. Fortunately, the Operation Omega orders are issued well in advance of the TF Omega departure date.

Getting the troops up the river to Oklahoma will take some fuel for the barges. But the barges are going to have to go upriver anyway, since the petroleum is in Oklahoma and southern Illinois. The sailing vessels can move upriver to wherever Milgov is offloading its barges with oil. There the troops disembark, then re-embark aboard barges returning to Tulsa, OK and Cairo, IL for more petroleum. Getting everything to fit is a potential challenge, but one that a small staff of logistics types and boatswain’s mates should be able to handle.

Of course, there are limits. The available fleet of single mast ships is doing something to earn their keep in late 2000. At the very least, they can bring in fish and haul (very) light cargo. Sending large numbers of these ships to Louisiana means foregoing whatever activities they were performing before the arrival of the troops from Europe until they return to Norfolk. This will hurt. So it may not be practical to send 10,000 troops up the Mississippi, even were Milgov so inclined. Right now, though, I have no idea where practical limits on sail transport might be set between 1,000 and 10,000 troops.

Olefin

05-10-2012, 04:45 PM

I agree totally with you Webstral. And we know there are ships making the run from Norfolk to at least the Texas area.

Why - because its canon. Its how the characters got to Texas from Norfolk in Red Star, Lone Star.

So if they can catch a ship, so can the reinforcements.

pmulcahy11b

05-10-2012, 11:14 PM

Another unit history. It isn't finished yet but as I am no expert on US units I would welcome feedback before I go much further.

As ever nitpicks and comments welcome.

I'll tell you a bit about 1/141 INF(M). I assigned to A Co of that battalion -- but I will caution you that my experiences only go back to mid-1986. (This is, of course, well before its reflagging in 2004.)

1/141 INF(M) in mid-1986 is one of the most spread-out of all of the units in the 49th AD. Alpha and the Scout Platoon are in San Antonio, along with the 1/141's HHC. Bravo Company is in Alice, Texas, except for Third Platoon, who is in Victoria, along with a small unit (about half a platoon) of support troops). Charlie Company is in Eagle Pass along the Mexican border, again with third Platoon and a support element in Hondo.

The upshot of this is that the troops of the 1st Battalion rarely see each other except during annual drills. Except for special occasions, they don't train together during the year. Even the units in San Antonio rarely train together, with the exception of Alpha Company and the HHC's Weapons Platoon.

While the individual units of the 1st Battalion are surprisingly competent and crafty for a National Guard unit -- if you are expecting "just another Nasty Guard Unit" in opposition, you're likely to get your clock cleaned. However, due to it's wide dispersal and limited opportunities for combined training, the 1st Battalion does lack a sense of cohesiveness -- and this is not helped by the fact that, at least in 1986, Alpha Company is a deliberately overstrength company, with an extra platoon, one extra man per squad, and a small (4-man) scout element of its own.

Even in the face of a Mexican invasion, it will still take a little bit of time for 1st Battalion to operate as one, unitary battalion. In that time, Charlie Company and Hondo detachment could be lost to the Mexicans, unless they been pulled back before then. If not, Charlie's isolated position forward may caused their disintegration as a Company, with their essentially having gone to ground and their only contact with 49th AD by radio, sending SITREPs, sightings, spot reports, and the results of scouting missions. Charlie Company may in fact not be wearing uniforms, and may be using a fair amount of civilian weapons to blend in.

I feel that this sort of information might be more applicable than ORBATs from after the 2004 reorganization.

James Langham

05-11-2012, 01:51 AM

I'll tell you a bit about 1/141 INF(M). I assigned to A Co of that battalion -- but I will caution you that my experiences only go back to mid-1986. (This is, of course, well before its reflagging in 2004.)

1/141 INF(M) in mid-1986 is one of the most spread-out of all of the units in the 49th AD. Alpha and the Scout Platoon are in San Antonio, along with the 1/141's HHC. Bravo Company is in Alice, Texas, except for Third Platoon, who is in Victoria, along with a small unit (about half a platoon) of support troops). Charlie Company is in Eagle Pass along the Mexican border, again with third Platoon and a support element in Hondo.

The upshot of this is that the troops of the 1st Battalion rarely see each other except during annual drills. Except for special occasions, they don't train together during the year. Even the units in San Antonio rarely train together, with the exception of Alpha Company and the HHC's Weapons Platoon.

While the individual units of the 1st Battalion are surprisingly competent and crafty for a National Guard unit -- if you are expecting "just another Nasty Guard Unit" in opposition, you're likely to get your clock cleaned. However, due to it's wide dispersal and limited opportunities for combined training, t
he 1st Battalion does lack a sense of cohesiveness -- and this is not helped by the fact that, at least in 1986, Alpha Company is a deliberately overstrength company, with an extra platoon, one extra man per squad, and a small (4-man) scout element of its own.

Even in the face of a Mexican invasion, it will still take a little bit of time for 1st Battalion to operate as one, unitary battalion. In that time, Charlie Company and Hondo detachment could be lost to the Mexicans, unless they been pulled back before then. If not, Charlie's isolated position forward may caused their disintegration as a Company, with their essentially having gone to ground and their only contact with 49th AD by radio, sending SITREPs, sightings, spot reports, and the results of scouting missions. Charlie Company may in fact not be wearing uniforms, and may be using a fair amount of civilian weapons to blend in.

I feel that this sort of information might be more applicable than ORBATs from after the 2004 reorganization.

Thanks, that is REALLY useful info, exactly the sort of info i need, bits will make it into the next draft. Do you want a fictional mention?

Are the unit designations right? It is a mix of different sources and a couple of educated guesses.

Legbreaker

05-11-2012, 03:55 AM

I am not talking about steam ships - I am talking about steam locomotives.
Check back over the old threads. We've discussed the use of rail before and it's been shown as unfeasible until significant reconstruction of infrastructure (ie the rail lines themselves) has been completed.
Additionally, there's problems with marauders, petty dictators, New America, and sooooo many more issues we could discuss just them alone for a month!

But if guys can do it in Poland in Going Home they can sure as hell do it in the US.
Yes, Going Home does have that. It also shows us some of the problems such as destroyed bridges, ripped up lines, etc. Furthermore, the PC group isn't expecting to have to hold any portion of the line for longer than it takes to actually roll over it - ie about a mile ahead of the train and about half a mile behind.
In the US, Milgov (and Civgov) aren't going to be devoting resources to reconstruction if their work will be torn up the moment their backs are turned. Troops and resources are needed to secure the lines, guard the trains, set up rest and refuelling stops. Just protecting and servicing a hundred miles of track when the countryside is hostile is going to take a LOT of manpower and resources.

So sure, a single train may get through, maybe even a few trains, but the moment a hostile group realises trains are running again, you can bet an ambush will be set up. It's a LOT easier to attack a train than it is a convoy of trucks too - the train can't divert to an alternate route.

Frankly no military would be that stupid to not reinforce that division and make it a priority.
Once again, perhaps there wasn't a NEED for reinforcement early enough to plan for part of TF34 to divert there. Also, getting troops from the east coast, as already discussed, is fraught with difficulties.
It's all well and good to say something ought to be done, it's another to organise the logistics for it.

And before you go all canon on me - the game basically stopped in mid April of 2001 as far as the US goes. There were a few isolated Challenge articles but thats it. Any projections in HW are just that - projections - and in this case of one author and not GDW as a whole.
Reread my earlier comments. I'm not saying reinforcements will never get to the 49th AD, just that they're not getting there before April 2001.

i.e. the Challenge magazine article that has a nuclear sub commander in charge of the Hyman Rickover. If they had him then why wasnt he in Last Submarine.
Umm, perhaps because he wasn't in the area at the time he was needed? Perhaps he was better utilised where he was?

You can defend canon all you want - but its flat out wrong here.
In your opinion. Others, many others who have spent decades studying and developing the game strongly disagree with you.

Some of the modules have stuff that makes no sense and should be ignored.
Again, your opinion. As has been stated time and time again, the apparent problems can be worked through and explained. It just takes a little time and effort. Sure, it's easier to simply throw out what you don't like and start fresh, and everyone's entitled to do that if they wish, but nobody is entitled to declare everyone else must follow suit!

As for reinforcements and those who say they couldnt get troops to the 49th.
Sigh....
It's a timing and logistical issue...

And the module states that they only used 1400 out of 43,000 men for reinforcements?
Check on the various threads where this has already been discussed. To summarise, not all those 43,000 actually went to the US, many were not military (dependants), a number weren't army, and then there's the crippled who are not longer suitable for military service.

Thats what Chico and the others in the DC group were saying all along, that it was time to put HW and Kidnapped on the shelf and start over again at April of 2001 and make a timeline that made sense.
Umm, what?
Ignore Howling Wilderness, which details the situation up to April 2001, and start fresh at April 2001? :confused:
As for those who said they sat down and war gamed it first
It's not a claim, it's a fact.

Sail, my friend.
Sail does seem to be the most likely method and you've already covered most of the important problems. The first transportation by sail might take a while to organise - gathering the necessary boats and crews, ensuring they aren't needed for fishing (which will be a major problem given the sudden influx of people to feed). There may only be enough boats excess to minimum survival requirements to shift a few hundred people at a time which would mean several journeys down around Florida and back and all the dangers that entails.

Fortunately, the Operation Omega orders are issued well in advance of the TF Omega departure date.
No doubt, however planning (as discussed elsewhere) is unlikely to begin until after July 2000. The 49th AD's (for example) need for reinforcement may not become apparent until October or later, well too late for significant changes to the Omega plan. It may take even longer to communicate their need to where the "available" troops are, further delaying the possible reinforcement.
And we know there are ships making the run from Norfolk to at least the Texas area.
Yes, we do know there is some shipping. We don't see much evidence of them being particularly large, or large enough to carry more than a few dozen people at a time.

Olefin

05-11-2012, 09:34 AM

If the train network in Poland, a country that has been fought over by armies for four years by multiple armies and nuked a lot more intensively than the US was, plus literally thousands of conventional air strikes, was intact enough for a party of player characters to take a train across half the country a few weeks then MilGov can get trains to OK from Norfolk easily enough.

Or you can take ships to LA and then go from there overland easily enough, even if the reinforcments originally particpated in the Ozark operation and then went on from there to OK with New America out of the way.

Or they could have gone by train to Chicago and then from there followed the same path that the 400 guys sent by the 194th followed to get to Louisiana.

Or per the Ozarks module they could have gone to Memphis and then by road convoy to the 49th.

Sorry Leg but your arguments dont work here.

If they can reinforce the 85th from units in IL and Norfolk they can reinforce the 49th.

Oh and any ship that is carrying cargo can carry a lot of men - and the ships described in Red Star, Lone Star could clearly carry a lot of men. These arent fishing boats, they are freighters. If you can carry freight you can carry hundreds of men in its place.

And the 49th being out of communication as to them needing reinforcements is non-sensical. Especially considering the location of that division relative to the Colorado HQ and the fact that the division is providing fuel to the entire Midwest and Plains states.

Legbreaker

05-11-2012, 10:05 AM

Sorry Leg but your arguments dont work here.
May I suggest reading this before opening your mouth? :pissed:
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=3130
Shifting people around has been discussed at great length before now and I'm not the only one who sees problems which can't be solved by waving a magic wand and simply wishing.

Webstral

05-11-2012, 02:49 PM

I want to address two items: the identifiable need for reinforcements for 49th AD and the assignment of available Operation Omega troops by rational means (as opposed to catch-as-catch-can).

As of 01 JUL 00, 49th AD disposes 3000 troops and 23 tanks and light tanks. (I just can’t bring myself to misuse the term “AFV”) The division is at something like 20% of its authorized manpower, although reductions in the number of uniformed support personnel probably place its infantry strength at a higher level. I don’t think there’s any question that the division needs reinforcements badly. Every formation in CONUS and Alaska needs reinforcements badly.

The command and staff running the CONUS side of Operation Omega are challenged to distribute the returning troops without knowing how many actually will return. As Legbreaker points out, not everyone who shows up in Bremerhaven is going to be available for dispatch as replacements. Nonetheless, Colorado Springs is going to want to have some system in place to distribute the troops who become available based on needs and feasibility.

Were I an operations staffer in Colorado Springs (in which case Milgov would be in genuinely dire straits), I would use a variation on a risk management matrix to help the bosses decide where Operation Omega troops should go. The vertical axis would be priority, and the highest value would be at the top of the column. The horizontal axis would be feasibility, and the highest value would be on the right side. Highest priority and highest feasibility would be found in the upper right of the matrix, while lowest priority and lowest feasibility would be at the bottom left. The most available troops would go to units located in the upper right. No one would go to units located in the bottom left. (If Fort Huachuca even appeared on such a matrix, it would be tucked into the bottom left corner of the graph.)

Units of Fifth US Army probably would be assigned high priority ratings because they are located along or near the Mississippi Watershed, the value of which I believe has been fairly well established. Although 90th US Corps is located well west of the Mississippi, a functional lock system along the Arkansas River will allow barge traffic to continue to move as far west as Tulsa. Since 90th US Corps is protecting the oil assets of Oklahoma, it seems reasonable to assume that the component formations of the corps will have a high priority rating. Units of First US Army probably would not receive uniformly high priority ratings. For instance, 49th MP Brigade isn’t protecting anything important in western Massachusetts. Sure, it would be nice to control the Connecticut River for transport and agriculture, but nothing in New England measures up against the resource base of the Mississippi Basin.

Feasibility is another matter entirely. One can debate whether 78th ID is going to receive a high priority rating, but it’s got to be at the top of the list for feasibility. 100th ID in Colorado is at best middlin’ until the airships underpinning Operation Manifest Destiny become available. (I seldom forego an opportunity to plug for my own work.) Sixth US Army is only surpassed in terms of infeasibility by Ninth US Army.

The question really is whether the high feasibility of using Operation Omega troops to reinforce Milgov cantonments on the East Coast outweighs the high priority of using them to reinforce Fifth US Army in the all-important heartland. Obviously, this is not an all-or-nothing prospect. However, the matrix can help generate a ratio for the available troops; for example, 40% of the available troops will go to First US Army, while the rest go to Fifth US Army.

Olefin

05-11-2012, 02:54 PM

very good and reasoned argument Webstral

and a lot better than the usual "the canon doesnt say so" that I hear so often

and also good to see that its not just me who thinks that MilGov would be rational when it comes to reinforcements and give some to the units that are protecting resources that even HW says are critical to their ability to survive

not too smart of any general to say these assets are super critical - and then not send them any men when they are available and available in large numbers

(i.e. 28000 men is a lot of men available to reinforce units that have 3000 left and are guarding critical cannot lose resources)

LAW0306

05-11-2012, 04:42 PM

OLEFIN welcome to the dark side of the force. Check in with chico to draw weapons and Jason wiser for an intel dump.

Olefin

05-11-2012, 11:24 PM

Intel already received when I first came here but thanks for the info LAW.

pmulcahy11b

05-12-2012, 01:09 AM

Thanks, that is REALLY useful info, exactly the sort of info i need, bits will make it into the next draft. Do you want a fictional mention?

Are the unit designations right? It is a mix of different sources and a couple of educated guesses.

The unit designations are correct as I remember them.

At Annual Drills, we spent the better part of week simply trying to weld 1st Battalion back into an integrated unit. Even so, the "outlyers" (as we called them) had their ways of doing things, some of which were non-SOP. So you use that, instead of turning the Drill into Basic Training. Bravo and Charlie were used to operating alone, and they made outstanding scouts when you couldn't get the Scout Platoon to be assigned to a recon for you.

Legbreaker

05-12-2012, 01:48 AM

We had a similar situation in the reserve units I was in. Platoons and companies tended to be able to work well enough with only a few days to a couple of weeks of training, but pulling anything more together was a long and intensive process of months.
The larger the formation, no matter what nationality it is, the longer it would take to get operational as a large unit. Elements should be able to operate effectively fairly quickly though, provided the individual soldiers knew their jobs and the small units of platoon and companies had been able to train fairly regularly in peacetime.

Webstral

05-12-2012, 01:58 AM

Don't get me started on the inadequacies of the US reserve system to keep combat units in fighting trim. Don't get me started. Don't do it.

Legbreaker

05-12-2012, 02:13 AM

Don't get me started on the inadequacies of the US reserve system to keep combat units in fighting trim. Don't get me started. Don't do it.

*Poke* *poke*
Go on, do it. you know you want too! :p

Webstral

05-12-2012, 01:22 PM

*Poke* *poke*
Go on, do it. you know you want too! :p

Leg, there are times when I think you were born with a pot stirrer in your hand. For now, I must resist. I have been assigned a critical mission by my better half: clear off the desk in the office and put all that [expletive deleted] Twilight: 2000 stuff away!

James Langham

05-12-2012, 05:13 PM

I've tried to resolve the replacement issue now and added a few quotes.

Olefin

05-13-2012, 01:03 AM

very nice additions - makes it an even better final product. Even though I dont agree with the final result as per HW, the additions you have made really bring the era of late 2000 to early 2001 to life. It does represent an attempt to explain a canonical event that I dont agree with but as always canon is what you make of it.

And for those who choose to stay to that canon what you have done is really bring the division and its history to life.

I would make one suggestion. Since it is written as a historical document you may want to extend it out and suggest a possible future for the unit. As mentioned eventually the unit has the BMP as a museum piece at its HQ at Fort Sill. Thus it doesnt die but continues and eventually survives as a division. That story would be a an excellent addition to what you have written.

Legbreaker

05-13-2012, 01:54 AM

For now, I must resist. I have been assigned a critical mission by my better half: clear off the desk in the office and put all that [expletive deleted] Twilight: 2000 stuff away!

Ah, that is a critical task. Essential to continued survival even given the source of the orders!

James Langham

05-13-2012, 02:20 AM

Panther Al

05-13-2012, 04:25 AM

Thanks, I haven't finished with the document yet but haven't fully worked out the future of the 49th. Personally I see it withering away leaving a headquarters made up of the command staff and little else (which is operating under greater and greater delusions) but I can be persuaded to do things differently.

Eventually I think it will get its act back together: If one goes by what 2300's timeline says about Texas, for the 49th would play a huge role in it.

Olefin

05-13-2012, 09:34 AM

I dont see it being reduced to just a deluded HQ. For one it clearly says the division fights for several years after the BMP joins them in 1999. That clearly shows a division with a least some fighting capability beyond that of a mere HQ cadre for several yeas to come.

Webstral

06-04-2012, 11:46 PM

At long last, I've taken the time to really look at your work on the 49th Armored Division, James.

I love the effort that went into showing pre-war and post-Exchange TO&E (table of organization and equipment) for 49th AD. Great effort! I’m especially appreciate that you made an obvious effort to tie the post-Exchange TO&E in with the tanks listed as belonging to 49th AD in the US Army Vehicle Guide. You did a good job explaining the presence of M1 and M2 in the division, too.

I appreciate as well the presence of USAF and Dept of Energy crews and fighting vehicles in the division. Good creativity! I notice that by early 1999 the surviving LAV75 appear to have been concentrated in the new divisional cavalry squadron.

Maneuver battalions and artillery battalions are listed with hyphens between the battalion number and the parent regiment instead of slashes: 1-184 IN for 1st Battalion of the 184th Infantry Regiment, 4-64 AR for 4th Battalion of the 64th Armored Regiment, and 3-78 FA for 3rd Battalion of the 78th Field Artillery Regiment. Companies within the battalion are separated from the battalion number with a slash; B/1-18 IN for Bravo Company, 1st Battalion of the 184th Infantry Regiment.

To make matters more confusing, most battalions in the US Army do not follow the same nomenclature system as the maneuver battalions. I served in the 4th Engineer Battalion (Mech). No fancy numbering or anything.

The School Brigade TO&E for late August 1998 is good but could stand a tweak or two. By the time the brigade has been assigned to front-line combat duty with 49th AD, the corps commander will have transferred the battalion to his command. The Patriots can’t do anything useful at the brigade level, given that the School Brigade is entering front-line combat. Also, make some note of the fact that the infantry battalions and ADA battalions will be exchanging companies to make heavy machine gun or autocannon company teams. While any half-informed reader will assume that the armored and infantry battalions are forming combined arms task forces, it may not be as obvious that the ADA battalions and the infantry are doing the same thing, since there is no doctrine for using ADA and infantry in a combined arms role. Otherwise, the School Brigade TO&E looks good. Transferring 1-124 CAV from the 49th AD is a nice touch.

The loss of 1600 replacements en route from Virginia is painful. It’s also very Twilight: 2000. Good one!

The list of commanding generals is a nice creative gesture. Again, I like the attention to detail that goes into this sort of thing.

A very, very nice bit of work, James!

James Langham

06-09-2012, 05:07 PM

Latest version. unusually for me it is quite pessimistic. As ever comments welcome.

Rainbow Six

06-10-2012, 04:19 AM

James, great article. I particularly enjoyed the part at the end where you detailed some of the Division's notable members. One minor point - dates don't tally in Major Turner's bio - think you might have a typo in the date of his death (Jan 01 - should this be Jan 02?)

James Langham

06-10-2012, 01:37 PM

Webstral

06-11-2012, 11:56 PM

That is bleak.

pmulcahy11b

06-12-2012, 02:42 AM

I know there's no real justification for it, but I'm not only a San Antonian and Texan, but I'm a former member of 1/141. I can't see the 49th just disintegrating like that. Like I said in an earlier post, The 49th can make a mess out of a unit that underestimates them -- we made messes out of visiting National Guard units, Air Force Defenders, and even active duty units. Cohesion may come a bit slowly, my guess is that by 1997, they will be operating in sync.

Targan

06-12-2012, 02:48 AM

Cohesion may come a bit slowly, my guess is that by 1997, they will be operating in sync.

Arrrrrgh! Oh wait, not the boy band. My bad.

Olefin

06-14-2012, 11:38 AM

James Langham

06-14-2012, 01:09 PM

I have to agree with pmulcahy11b - we know that the 49th survives with at least the BMP-C mentioned in the Soviet Vehicle Guide for several years after 1999 so your final entry of the division being folded into another division is a little too pessimistic in my opinion.

One thing you may want to think about is posssibly would the 49th members who left possibly join up with the South Texas Grange forces mentioned in Red Star, Lone Star? I.e. instead of just dispersing in dribs and drabs to their homes would they have joined up with the nascent Texas Republic as an organized military unit, but not one under US MilGov control?

In other words not deserting or going over the hill but deciding that they are Texas units and should be fighting for Texas and not for the US? Perhaps not everyone but a substantial force of them, especially if that force starts to win ground against the Texians or Mexicans with the oil that the South Texas Grange now has available?

Ive tried not to mention the possibility of the South Texas Grange as I can't decide which way to go with them. I think really they need to be considered for each campaign. 2300 has Texas under Mexican control but Red Star, Lone Star implies they may succeed so I try to leave things like that open. I may well add a note that some operate with the Kingsleys. Texas might well use the 49th as a division for the historical precedent.

Olefin

06-14-2012, 01:32 PM

You are right in the implication -i.e. the very strong implication that Kingsley would be the first president of a Lone Star Republic is a huge hint that maybe they rethought the "Texas is part of Mexico" part of 2300.

Also remember that you could have Texas possibly broken into multiple areas - i.e. an area that stays with the US as Texas but is much smaller than before (say northern Texas) , another that is taken over by Mexico (the area below San Antonio for instance but not along the Gulf Coast where the refinery was) and a third area that becomes the Republic of Texas - all very much Texas but none of them being the Texas that we know now.

You could even end up with rival 49th Divisions - one being in Texas and one being in the US.

kalos72

06-14-2012, 05:02 PM

Side note of sorts:

Where can I find the background story your talking about for Texas and 2300AD? What book or article?

Targan

06-14-2012, 10:17 PM

2300 has Texas under Mexican control...

It does? Which version? The original Traveller:2300 I have has Texas as an independent republic for hundreds of years after the Twilight War.

Webstral

06-14-2012, 10:30 PM

The Earth-Cybertech Sourcebook also lists Texas as an independent republic.

RN7

06-14-2012, 11:35 PM

In canon 2300AD Texas is an independent country politicaly split between a pro-American Anglo population and a pro-Mexican Hispanic population.

The history has Texas being wrested from America by Mexico in 1999 during the Twilight War. However in 2099 Texas rebelled and fought and won its independence from Mexico and became a seperate nation for the first time since 1845. Hispanic factions rallied to attempt to bring Texas back into the Mexican fold, occupying and terrorizing much of western Texas for decades. Oil men and industry saw advantages in becoming an American state again and put political pressure on the new government. But even with these pressures, no one faction could get either a pro-Mexican or pro-American government into power, so Texas has remained independent. A brief coup was attempted by pro-Mexican radicals in 2230 who seized access into and out of Austin, the capital, in an attempt to flush out and replace the government. In great Texan tradition, however, Austin's citizens took up arms and effectively eliminated the rebellion's army units before loyal troops could arrive.
Geographically Texas has changed since the 20th Century. The southern border with Mexico remains the Rio Grande River and Louisiana borders to the east, but the northern and western borders have changed. Almost all of the Panhandle is now part of America (Oklahoma I think), probably due to it being firmly controlled by US forces and a largely Anglo militia during the Twilight War. The northern border with the US now largely follows the Red River. The western Trans-Pecos part of Texas has spread north following the Pecos River, and includes a sizeable part of south eastern New Mexico.

Culturally 2300AD Texas has been heavily influenced by Mexico rule with Spanish style architecture and flat low to the ground buildings predominating, and the country is bilingual. Oil and beef are still the main industries and economicaly Texas is influenced by America. Politicaly Mexico is still pissed over Texan independence and Mexico would be considered the main threat to Texan indepedence. The Texan military itself is definetly pro-American buying most of its equipment from America and training with US forces, and also with British Commonwealth forces from the UK, Canada, Australia and the Anglo-Carribean. The modern Texan Army has its roots the Texan Liberation Army and the National Guard units that deserted the Mexican Army at the end of the 21st Centrury. The current 49th Armoured Brigade was revived after independence and decends from the old US Texas National Guard 49th Armoured Division. The Texas Rangers still play a prominant role in Texan military and paramilitary circles as well as folklore.
.