Twilight 2013 - How are you going to use it?

[Haven]

Just wondering for future discussions....

Seems like all of the questions around here are centered around Twilight v1 or v2 and the canon timeline and wondered if anyone was planning on making the move?


I am probably going to be using the rules from Twilight 2013 and use my own timeline (which is a previous post around here)
But i would consider it basically option one v3 rules and timeline.



So wondered what y'all thought - even though most of the discussion for v3 is understandably on the 93 Studio Forums.

[kato13]

I put other. For the most part I am taking a wait and see attitude. Once I see reviews from people I trust (the people here) I will make my decision on purchasing the game. Given I am a child of the cold war I cannot imagine using the T2013 timeline over the V1 one, so at best I might use some of the rules and equipment stats.

Oh I changed the poll creation time to 10 min to prevent the problem you had before. Also deleted the duplicate thread.

[Haven]

I personally never really liked the Twilight v2.2 autofire/damage rules and it always kept me from fully adopting and embracing the rules.

I was always constantly dabbling in house rules and other rules systems but would always come back to Twilight rules as a 'standard'....


but its always the post-apoc military rpg/story that always kept me interested.

Now... i've come up with my own modified present day timeline and love the Twilight 2013 rules.

So... i am pumped!


NOTE: I wouldn't judge the Twilight 2013 time line on the little that has been released. I still don't like France being the country that launches the first nuke... but it for me where you wind up with the time line is the part that counts and you wind up with a really cool place for the PCs to interact with.
(kinda like forgiving a movie you like for being slightly less than realistic for the sake of the movie as a whole)

[kato13]

My system is a really odd custom mix of the following

V1 vehicle rules and timeline
CORPS/Timelords 75% of my Character attributes and task resolution.
V2 half of the Character generation system, some disease, rads,fatigue

I have pulled and customized individual rules from more than 20 different games so if there is good stuff in 2013 I am sure I will use some.

[Snake Eyes]

Max is currently running a bi-weekly 2013 campaign that I play in. If I ever run one myself it will be with the 2013 rule set and I'll modify the timeline and/or setting modified to suit my needs.

[Grimace]

I'll likely end up not buying it. The timeline doesn't interest me at all and some of the parts of rules that I've viewed seem needlessly complicated. I know they've created it with scalable rules so that you can do various levels of complexity, but some of the non-combat related rules seemed quite set and complicated. Dare I say, needlessly complex.

Now, since I've not completely, absolutely decided against it, if I hear enough good vibes from enough people, I may change my opinion. I know there are people who are just ga-ga over it, and that's great for them, but for me it'll take a heck of a lot more persuading.
:bash:

[Mohoender]

I bought it yesterday and roughly read it (It's almost christmas, and I was being curious).

I found that they did a good job with the rules but I'm accustom to the old ones and will certainly not use them.

I found them very poor when it comes to equipments and even more so when it come to illiustration (a pity).

I disagree with the timeline but I might find some more inspiration from it. It's not only because I'm french but simply because I don't see France launching nukes at Belarus (that would be suicide and even more stupid to do it from the Baltic Sea). Then, lets suppose that it happens. I think that it will result in full scale revolution with execution of the president and government by the people:D . France sided against the war in Iraq and there is good reason for this among its population. Even with the death of 10000, I can't see the french people supporting a nuclear attack. However, they could back a conventional attack that would be carried out with the Russians (happy about getting Belarus back) and they would certainly accept the creation of concentration camps holding east europeans refugees:mad: . There are some fun ideas into this timeline, nevertheless, but as someone told me (about mine), it goes too fast and the world would need a little more time for military build up. I personnaly think that the Russians are currently improving but they see them as too interventionist (Ukraine is too big for them). In the meantime, US is too weak and we are far from a European defence.

As a result, I won't do much with this game but I was happy to read a full version:)

[Marc]

For the moment, I feel quite satisfied with my old v2.2 rulebook and the other stuff of the classical Twilight that I've managed to get (and, for the most part, I've still not used it) . The compatibility of v2.2 with Traveller: The New Era is an important feature, for me, and I consider the rules (with limited use of house-rules) are good enough. Perhaps I would buy it following the hunter/collector instinct that every GM has inside. But, without knowing the final product, a new timeline (I've read excellent and various timelines in this same forum) and a new set of rules to learn (and to communicate to my players) don't motivate me to make the expense. Of course, the hunter/collector instinct can make me change my opinion tomorrow...:o

[Raellus]

Unless it gets totally hammered by the critics and, more importantly, you guys, I will propably pick up a copy at some point down the road. Right now, my disposable outcome is going towards Christmas gifts for the fam. I'd feel like a bastard, buying more stuff for myself!

If the scenario that was posted on the old RPGHost board a while back is the one the T2013 people stayed with, I definitely won't be using it. I am open to using the rules, though. If they're good, why not? If I do though, I will probably stick to the old v1.0 timeline, my first love. I may also try to come up with my own revised present day armaggedon scenario or apply the rules to a Merc-style campaign.

[LAW0306]

Please explain to me how the Us is too weak? This is a serious question and would love to see your points.

[Mohoender]

From what I read (but as I said I read it lightly) I found the US position too passive at the political level (that might be true for every country in the timeline). It seems only concerned with its agenda, not taking into account what happens around it (not even the threat on its agenda).

France get 10000 killed and I haven't read a word on a US reaction about it (or anyone else by the way). I'm not thinking especially of a military action, but you'll have a political one: at the local level, at the European level, at the US level and at the international level (UN). The investigation seems to be carried out by France alone while I'll view the pressure on Belarus to come from all sides (Russia and China included).

Moreover, they definitely split Europe and US and I don't see this as realistic. Again from my understanding it seems that Europe is talking through NATO (unlikely as US remain the main contributor).

Russia attack Ukraine and again US doesn't move (Ok about Georgia but Ukraine is a different matter). In my timeline, US doesn't move either but Ukraine was the prime aggressor.

In south America, US doesn't seem to really stand with Colombia, it's most important current ally in the Region.

Finally, there are no true military build up before the war. I made that same mistake (considering its one) but I correct it since one of you made the point (and that is a very good point I think).

However, this opinion was made from a quick reading so I might be mistaken. That's the feeling I'm getting. I'll be reading it again when I get some time so.

[LAW0306]

yea this production is amature at its best too many points too cut it up with...

[kcdusk]

I'd be interested to get it from the rules point of view. To me, thats by far the most important thing. And it sounds like the guys behind it really put some thought into new rules/approachs to running a game.

The background, no matter how good, wont replace v1.0. But for new (ie under 25 years of age?) players a new background that sits better with their own real world history it might suit.

I havnet got the pdf yet. I am interested in doing so. I'm in no hurry (too much harpoon to read :-)

[Marc]

But for new (ie under 25 years of age?) players a new background that sits better with their own real world history it might suit.


I totally agree with you about this point. I have forgotten all the new blood that may be wishing to explore the possibilities of a new Twilight setup. Mmmmm.. perhaps I'm getting older?:)

[Snake Eyes]

yea this production is amature at its best too many points too cut it up with...

So is this comment targeted solely at the setting and timeline or do you have specific complaints about character generation, the combat rules or any other element of gameplay in the new system?

[Haven]

Well, speaking as a 25 year old:

I like both timelines and love Cold War history and books and have read nearly every fiction coldwar goes hot book that would be considered 'main stream' (Clancy, Coyle, Peters, etc)..............


......but am currently playing a non-Coldwar gone hot game.



"Well that just proves kcdusk correct!"



Kinda, but I would attribute it more to the fact that i am a 'civvie' and never been in the military than anything else.

So, ORBATs, SOPs, and general 'high level' C&C of the military structure and operation doesn't really make sense to me so it is easier for me to create a 'Red Dawn' campaign using the rules.

Or now... the Twilight 2013 rules, because they are better.

[CStock88]

Ahoy there, new person chiming in.

I've been interested in a "Twilight" type of game for some time, now. Even though I'm "only" 20 years old, my interest in history has always drawn me towards the good ol' East-West Conflict. I got into Twilight 2000 v2.2 a while back, thanks to my friend getting a hold of his dad's old stuff; despite the inability to play the out-of-his-league civilian type, it was still loads of fun.

Ultimately, however, despite my personal interest in the Big Bad Red Menace and things May Have Been, it's really not that culturally relevant to me. I mean, honestly, I was 3 years old by the time the whole Cold War thing was over and done with. The aftereffects, of course, are relevant, but it took a while for me to be old enough to care about them ;) While I do think it's interesting, and I like reading up on it... ultimately, I was born too late for it.

Which is why I'm actually really excited about Twilight: 2013. While there are some things in the new timeline that I don't really like (just as there some things in the old timeline I don't really like!), I find that, combined with the rules in the new edition of the game, it's all far more relevant to significant events that occured in my lifetime.

Oh yeah, plus, I dig how the new rules result in characters being incapacitated like no one's business. Neat way to emphasize that the best way to fight is to not fight at all, and, barring that, hide behind something really solid.

[Mohoender]

I made my own timeline which start roughly at the same time but with the war starting in 2011 (nukes falling from mid-2012 to fall of 2013) and things settling down around 2016.

My personnal opinion is mostly about the timeline. I find some qualities to it (actually I came up with some similar stuff). However, I find it too much focused on terrorism and i find some severe drawbacks.

The other weak point is about the equipments but that is from personnal taste. I like to have a wide range of equipments to draw on.

About rules, I have no real clue, I haven't read it and I'm growing tired of learning new rules. Nevertheless, I have seen some interesting points and a great advantage: they are not using the D20 system put up by Wizard.

Law might have been a little harsh when saying that it was amateur work but, actually, he is right also as one can consider the RPG community to be entirely made of amateurs (with some wrongly thinking of themselves as professionals/the sole exception probably being wizard of the coast). We are all amateurs around here, and I find that great. Some of us have great websites (they will recognize themselves) that I found more than valuable. Not to talk of this forum of course.:)

I'm answering a question I wasn't asked but that was one of the critics I had to face when editing my own game (being amateur) a few years ago. I found that funny coming from publishers who were making less money than the retail shop next door.;)

As a conclusion, let praise amateurs, they are doing a great job but, hopefully, that is open to critics. Anyway, from 25 years of role playing (Jesus time goes by) I only remember one rule: rules are merely made as guide; do and play as you please:D .

[kato13]

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

The DC working group (of which Law is a member) have crafted wonderfully logical and beautifully flowing time lines. They are working harder than anyone I know to provide us the best and most accurate background information. If in his opinion his work is superior I do not doubt him. The evidence I have seen supports that position IMHO.

The true irony is that Law will give his work away while T2013 will charge for it (not that I blame them). The "amateur" who does it only out of passion not personal gain will actually have more esteem in my eyes, even if the quality of the work was equal.

That being said we are all friends here and I hope that T2013 never creates factions and just gives everyone more options on whatever path they choose.

[Raellus]

Welcome to the old folks' home, CStock88 and Haven! ;)

I think it's cool that you young bucks are into T2K at all. I can't really blame ya'll for going with the timeline that seems most relevant to you.

As a kid growing up during the later years of the Cold War, the v1.0 timeline feels most real to me. I remember when Red Dawn came out. My parents wouldn't let me see it but the trailers on TV both terrified and energized me. Terrified because I lived in Colorado. Energized 'cause I got a kick out of daydreaming about taking on the Russians with my friends just like the Wolverines. I guess you'd have to live through the fear (paranoia even), distrust, and jingoism of that era to fully appreciate the original Twilight scenario. When I first got my hands on the v1.0 box, I felt like I was seeing a glimpse of a very real, very grim future.

I also like alternative history feel that the v1.0 timeline has now. It's the world that could have been had USSR not collapsed and, for the most part, feels very real.

Anyway, if T2013 gets you excited about military-esque adventuring in a post-apoc world, then it must be doing something right. I'm eager to get a look at it.

BTW, before anyone starts ribbing me about making sure to get the large print edition, I'm 34.:D

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, I have to buy it first -- unfortunately, this month I had a couple of emergencies. The heater and AC both died (it's central air, so their tied together), and that cost $2500 to fix. At the end of last month, one of my little guys, Winston, was diagnosed with diabetes, and he's still having to get a lot of blood tests and rechecks to get his insulin dose right. And next month is probably out too, with Christmas and continuing checks for Winston. So it may be January before I get a look at T2K 2013.

I must say, though, I'm beginning to wonder about the timeline aspect, based on what's written here. Some other things may be out of whack as well. Maybe a T2K 2013 v2 in it's future? :p

[pmulcahy11b]

BTW, before anyone starts ribbing me about making sure to get the large print edition, I'm 34.:D

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

[Raellus]

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

Thanks, Paul. I needed that!:D

[Mohoender]

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)



So? Are some of them among the amateurs thinking of themselves as professionals? If that's the case Law is right.:)

[pmulcahy11b]

So? Are some of them among the amateurs thinking of themselves as professionals? If that's the case Law is right.:)

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development? And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals." Who are these professionals selling their goods to anyway? Us. If the first set of buyers aren't happy with the product, word will get around -- and the product will be improved or perish. That's the way the marketplace works.

[Mohoender]

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development? And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals." Who are these professionals selling their goods to anyway? Us. If the first set of buyers aren't happy with the product, word will get around -- and the product will be improved or perish. That's the way the marketplace works.

What is a valid idea? Forget about the sentence you quoted it might not be clear. I'm more or less saying the same than you (look at my previous posts).

The thing about buyers being happy or not about the product is not always true. Bad words can come out before you get any buyers and the words getting around are not that trusty. Many game don't get the time to improve and they perish from a lack of interest justified only by advices taken from people who never bought the game.

In the case of twilight 2013, they will need some improvement, and a lot of add-on. I found that sad for a 348 pages book. I haven't look at most of the rules yet, on the other hand, but I have already seen some interesting things in them (they speak in km/h and in meters; great I'm growing tired of speaking in cliks or watever fony measures). I would love to see some clearer elements on newer equipments, however: What is a muscle car? There are no illustration at all in this section (erf!) and very few vehicles. By the way there is a very good point for them: they recommend this forum.

[CStock88]

Well, all I can really say in follow up, is that everyone's entitled to their own opinions and preferences, naturally. :) The Twilight 2000 scenario is still really enjoyable. I also understand what you're saying about the people who initially contacted this forum - I'd be put off by that sort of behavior, too.

And by the way, if the DC Working Group's stuff is of the same quality as the thread about the JCS, CENTCOM, and Operation Omega, then I gotta say, I'd be really thrilled to read their finished product! Looks really cool, and is, IMHO, a major update on the Twilight 2000 scenario concept.

[Mohoender]

Well, all I can really say in follow up, is that everyone's entitled to their own opinions and preferences, naturally. :) The Twilight 2000 scenario is still really enjoyable. I also understand what you're saying about the people who initially contacted this forum - I'd be put off by that sort of behavior, too.

And by the way, if the DC Working Group's stuff is of the same quality as the thread about the JCS, CENTCOM, and Operation Omega, then I gotta say, I'd be really thrilled to read their finished product! Looks really cool, and is, IMHO, a major update on the Twilight 2000 scenario concept.

Agree. By the way my opinion is that of a customer as I bought it.:) Then, they are giving some good explanation on their own website. I don't agree with everything they say but their position is well defended.

[Graebarde]

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

And I have kids older than the lot of you. :D
But we have a three generation Twilight family too.

(Wondering what that has to do with 2013..:confused: )
Grae

[chico20854]

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development? And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals."

I guess I am an amateur. I've never made a penny (and don't really want to) by publishing game materials. That doesn't mean that we (in the DC Group) don't aim to turn out product as good as or better than what professional game designers turn out. If fact, we'd like to turn out "improved/revised" versions of the original canon materials, using the familiar GDW appearance and improved graphical content and revised/more detailed background. Paul, your web site is far above and beyond what the professionals have turned out by a huge margin!

As far as subject matter knowledge, we (like many others here) are not amateurs. Law, Flamingo and I are current or former NCOs with over 10 deployments between us. We are all school-trained historians and I've got a master's in national security policy and have worked on logistics at both the retail and wholesale level - in a period of a few years I worked on deploying both multiple corps and my company. As Kato alluded to, when the 2013 project came looking for volunteers the attitude was not very positive - since we had not published games before they discounted our professional RL abilities.

From the material that has been leaked (I have yet to see the finished product) the 2013 timeline is much more fantasy than the v1 timeline was in 1984. We're working on answering more of the v1 timeline what if? posed by GDW in 1984; IMHO the 2013 timeline what if? requires a lot more answers and fantasy to get there from here.

With that said, I hope that the 2013 rules are more an improvement over the v1 and v2.2 rules. I personally never liked the v2.2. adapted Traveller character generation system and the pretty clumsy v1 combat rules. With 15 years of RPG development between v2.2 and 2013 I can see how the rules could be radically different. I see rules as a tool to help the GM tell a story - and now we have a fifth method (v1, v2.2, Gurps, 2013 and the Targan-system-that-shall-not speak-its-name) to tell three possible related stories (v1, v2 and 2013 timelines). I think this is great, to each their own.

CStock88, I'll start a new thread and repost what we've put out so far.

[Targan]

I will have a lot more to say about T:2013 both here and elsewhere very soon but let me say this now, in brief: I'm not really down with the 2013 timeline (I agree strongly with many of the views of those at this forum who are critical of the timeline) but...

[this may come as a huge shock to those of you who know well my love for the system I currently use]

... the 2013 combat and character generation systems are the bomb. Seriously very, very good work. In my opinion those two facets alone justify its purchase. The new rules absolutely address most of the problems that many people active on this forum have previously pointed out with previous editions of T2K. I think that combining the revised timeline being developed by the DC Working Group and these new 2013 rules could be used to create new campaigns of real quality and excellence.

I urge those of you who have serious problems with the 2013 timeline to ignore that timeline and have a good look at the 2013 combat and char gen rules because they are things of great beauty.

[Snake Eyes]

Apparently another option needs to be added to the poll:

"I won't actually stoop to paying for 2013 but I'll gleefully download a pirated .torrent of it."

:disgust:

[LAW0306]

i would not even waste my time to do that.........

[Mohoender]

And I thought I could have been mean.:rolleyes: You are a bit hard guys.

[pmulcahy11b]

Apparently another option needs to be added to the poll:

"I won't actually stoop to paying for 2013 but I'll gleefully download a pirated .torrent of it."

:disgust:

Oh, I'd use Usenet. BitTorrent is spyware!

[Targan]

Jokes aside, 93 Games Studio is a small operation and even if people have issues with the timeline in the game or whatever I would strongly urge people not to seek pirate copies of the game. The authors and developers have put years of their lives and some of their hearts and souls into this project. They are T2Kers just like us. They deserve some level of respect at least for those reasons.

Just sayin'.

[Mohoender]

Jokes aside, 93 Games Studio is a small operation and even if people have issues with the timeline in the game or whatever I would strongly urge people not to seek pirate copies of the game. The authors and developers have put years of their lives and some of their hearts and souls into this project. They are T2Kers just like us. They deserve some level of respect at least for those reasons.

Just sayin'.

I agree, couldn't say better.:) Moreover, they still do as proven by their website.

[pmulcahy11b]

Jokes aside, 93 Games Studio is a small operation and even if people have issues with the timeline in the game or whatever I would strongly urge people not to seek pirate copies of the game. The authors and developers have put years of their lives and some of their hearts and souls into this project. They are T2Kers just like us. They deserve some level of respect at least for those reasons.

Just sayin'.

Yeah I know -- it'll be a late Christmas present for myself.

[Tegyrius]

I found them very poor when it comes to equipments and even more so when it come to illiustration (a pity).
The other weak point is about the equipments but that is from personnal taste. I like to have a wide range of equipments to draw on.
I'm curious as to why you consider the equipment selection poor. I'll admit that we don't have as much in the way of military small arms as 2.0/2.2 did, but the civilian selection is much larger (if anyone's interested about the reasoning behind that design decision, there's a discussion of it over in the 93GS weapons forum (http://www.93gamesstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1028)). As for non-weapon equipment... maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but the 2013 core book has 36 pages of non-weapon personal gear, compared to six in the 2.0 core. That doesn't really feel "poor" to me, but I'm a bit biased... :cool:

- C.

[Tegyrius]

The background, no matter how good, wont replace v1.0. But for new (ie under 25 years of age?) players a new background that sits better with their own real world history it might suit.
I totally agree with you about this point. I have forgotten all the new blood that may be wishing to explore the possibilities of a new Twilight setup. Mmmmm.. perhaps I'm getting older?:)
That was a not-insignificant decision that we made very early in the design process. We could have gone with a third Cold War alternate history, but we chose to build this apocalypse on today's fears rather than those of two decades ago. Quite frankly, we expected a significant portion of the existing fan base to have the reaction to our storyline that I'm seeing here. However, I'd like to think that the Reflex System is just as viable for use with the 1.0 and 2.0/2.2 timelines as it is with ours. Some modifications to the Last Year lifepath phases would be in order, but that's a trivial task.

- C.

[Tegyrius]

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)
Kato, I've been chewing this one over since this thread came to my attention last week, and I have to admit that I'm more than a little perplexed by your statement here. I kept a fairly low profile on both this board and the various T2k mailing lists because of a few vocally negative reactions to early information about the 2013 project, and because Keith (smokewolf) was handling playtester/consultant recruiting along with all other personnel matters. I know a few of our playtesters are active here, but I think it'd be obvious if you were referring to them. As far as I can recall, the only person to whom I've coldly and deliberately been an ass in my "2013 systems guy" persona was Justin Oldham on our forums, and, given the provocation he offered, I still stand by my statements in that thread. If I said something in this forum's previous incarnation that gave offense to a specific member or the general audience, please bring it to my attention.

The true irony is that Law will give his work away while T2013 will charge for it (not that I blame them). The "amateur" who does it only out of passion not personal gain will actually have more esteem in my eyes, even if the quality of the work was equal.
I've often said that this industry is really more of a subsidized hobby. In a lot of cases, the only difference between "amateur" and "professional" is that the so-called pro was lucky enough to catch the attention of a developer or publisher and stupid enough to sign a contract. However, no one gets rich doing this. We're all doing it out of passion.

- C.

[kato13]

maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but the 2013 core book has 36 pages of non-weapon personal gear, compared to six in the 2.0 core.
- C.


This is the first thing I have read that really interests me about T2013. I am a bit of an equipment and logistics nut.

Since I have not posted one for a while here is a shameless plug for my gaming site, which will eventually have a full character shopping cart system, allowing you to equip characters with any of the literally thousands of pieces of equipment I am currently databasing.

http://games.juhlin.com (sorry you have to register again I was not able to unify the logins when RPGhost closing early forced the forum launch)

[Tegyrius]

This is the first thing I have read that really interests me about T2013. I am a bit of an equipment and logistics nut.
Oh, good! Now I know who to blame for stacking my poll on future equipment support (http://www.93gamesstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1218&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&view=viewpoll). :D

Since I have not posted one for a while here is a shameless plug for my gaming site, which will eventually have a full character shopping cart system, allowing you to equip characters with any of the literally thousands of pieces of equipment I am currently databasing.
I'll register and poke at it after dinner. This looks to be made of pure awesome.

- C.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

The DC working group (of which Law is a member) have crafted wonderfully logical and beautifully flowing time lines. They are working harder than anyone I know to provide us the best and most accurate background information. If in his opinion his work is superior I do not doubt him. The evidence I have seen supports that position IMHO.

The true irony is that Law will give his work away while T2013 will charge for it (not that I blame them). The "amateur" who does it only out of passion not personal gain will actually have more esteem in my eyes, even if the quality of the work was equal.

That being said we are all friends here and I hope that T2013 never creates factions and just gives everyone more options on whatever path they choose.

Kato brother... uhmm.. who was condesending? I hope I wasn't 'cause I've been workign onthis project since 1996 (yea... 1996). When Mr. Taylor got a hold of me (early 2006 I think) I jumped right on board. BTW gang ... neither Snake or I get paid for our contribution - we both turned it down.

I DON'T wanna start any flaming or anything but guys, really, please look at the rules and read them over before you make any decisions. If you're not happy withthe timeline hey then use your own or use the old one. The timeline is "vague" for a reason.

AND Im a HUGE gear whore - let me correect myself - WHORE and Im very happy with the work that was done in the book.

We are ALL brothers in here with the same goal in mind. Having fun correct?

Max

[kato13]

Kato brother... uhmm.. who was condesending? I hope I wasn't 'cause I've been workign onthis project since 1996 (yea... 1996). When Mr. Taylor got a hold of me (early 2006 I think) I jumped right on board. BTW gang ... neither Snake or I get paid for our contribution - we both turned it down.



I honestly don't remember all the details as I was not personally involved, though i believe accusations of lying were thrown about. I remember being really excited and then dejected after seeing really bad interactions. As someone who had thought about T2k practically every day (little things like while driving thinking "what would have happened to that fence, generator, or water tower") it must have been serious to have deflated my balloon like that.

I just want to make it clear that my recent interactions with the 93GS people have been exemplary and my interest has now overcome all of my original negativity. I was only being honest about what I remember.

[kato13]

Kato, I've been chewing this one over since this thread came to my attention last week, and I have to admit that I'm more than a little perplexed by your statement here. I kept a fairly low profile on both this board and the various T2k mailing lists because of a few vocally negative reactions to early information about the 2013 project, and because Keith (smokewolf) was handling playtester/consultant recruiting along with all other personnel matters. I know a few of our playtesters are active here, but I think it'd be obvious if you were referring to them. As far as I can recall, the only person to whom I've coldly and deliberately been an ass in my "2013 systems guy" persona was Justin Oldham on our forums, and, given the provocation he offered, I still stand by my statements in that thread. If I said something in this forum's previous incarnation that gave offense to a specific member or the general audience, please bring it to my attention.

As I said in my previous thread I don't remember all the details nor everyone who was involved. I am not a negative person and I don't hold on to negativity. I do remember arguments about DD214s??? Accusations that people were not what they claimed to be, and in general the attitude of if you don't like what we are saying screw you.

I pull away from negativity, I don't focus on it, and that was my impulse after the first contact with this board. It could have been deadline stress. It could have been a lack of understanding of the general level of respect I expected on this board. It could have been me coming into the middle of an argument. I don't know. I just know that something very early on turned me WAY off. My memory could very easily be flawed but I cannot fathom how my excitement could turn to dejection over nothing.

As far as I am concerned I consider it water under the bridge. Everyone I have dealt with recently has been more than honorable and I am looking forward to getting the book soon.

[smokewolf]

Kato, I PM'ed you.

[Snake Eyes]

BTW gang ... neither Snake or I get paid for our contribution

It's true. I'm just a fan. And happy to be here. I fly the 93 Games flag around these parts because I'm an old school Twilight player who thinks 2013 is a cool, playable system that really captures the feel of post-apocalyptic survival with equal parts grit and tactical realism - not because I get compensated for it. Although, come to think of it, Keith does usually pay for beers when he's in town.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Yea he does pay for Indian food..... btw - let me just clear somethign up I don't hold any stock or anything in 93GS. I re-read my post and to me it sounded like I was part of it. I'm not - just a fan.

[Mohoender]

I'm curious as to why you consider the equipment selection poor. I'll admit that we don't have as much in the way of military small arms as 2.0/2.2 did, but the civilian selection is much larger (if anyone's interested about the reasoning behind that design decision, there's a discussion of it over in the 93GS weapons forum (http://www.93gamesstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1028)). As for non-weapon equipment... maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but the 2013 core book has 36 pages of non-weapon personal gear, compared to six in the 2.0 core. That doesn't really feel "poor" to me, but I'm a bit biased... :cool:

- C.

OK, it seems you haven't read all my posts.:D

First, I have seen the discussion going on at your website and as I said, I found your point very well defended. Actually, I advised people to go and check it as I really found it interesting. I might still have registered there but I don't have time to talk in tow places, sorry about that.

Second, one of the weak point I found comes from the lack of illustration and also from the general feeling given by that section. I understand that you had to make a choice but I don't agree with many of them (again that's personnal). For exemple, the Warrior is only used by UK and would be found in very small number. In addition you chose the BMP-2, why not, but it would have been wiser in my opinion to still get the BMP-1 (still in much wider service). The TPz-1 is one of the very rare vehicle. Moreover, you lack more modern vehicles except for the striker (used by US only). In addition I found the list of lighter or specific vehicle (mine resistant) a little poor (too generalist) while I haven't seen any aircraft. I liked your civilian section so but I have trouble finding what these vehicles stand for (still from the lack of illustrations). Nevertheless, all that comes from personnal taste and expectations. Then, I'm waiting from the coming add-on and I know from personnal experience that editing an RPG is not that easy, and finding an illustrator is hell. So don't let people down and keep up with the good work. ;) As I said, I have already seen very interesting points in the rules and as you said, adapting the older materials might not be that hard (but with time going by, I'm getting leasy).

Finally, I never ran in the 2.0 version but the v.2.2 had more than 70 pages. I don't remeber for the v.1.0 but that is a much lighter book.

[Mohoender]

I've often said that this industry is really more of a subsidized hobby. In a lot of cases, the only difference between "amateur" and "professional" is that the so-called pro was lucky enough to catch the attention of a developer or publisher and stupid enough to sign a contract. However, no one gets rich doing this. We're all doing it out of passion.

- C.

So much truth into this.:D

[Mohoender]

Oh, good! Now I know who to blame for stacking my poll on future equipment support (http://www.93gamesstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1218&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&view=viewpoll). :D


I'll register and poke at it after dinner. This looks to be made of pure awesome.

- C.

You might have to blame me as well.:)

[Mohoender]

I DON'T wanna start any flaming or anything but guys, really, please look at the rules and read them over before you make any decisions. If you're not happy withthe timeline hey then use your own or use the old one. The timeline is "vague" for a reason.


Max

I can understand that. Then, may be you'll have to fill in some of the gap in one way or another. I came up with some similar stuff in y own timeline but some of your choice seem strange. May be you could add some precision to it at your website (and I'm not talking of open talk at the forum).

[kato13]

Oh, good! Now I know who to blame for stacking my poll on future equipment support (http://www.93gamesstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1218&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&view=viewpoll). :D
- C.

While that does look like my handiwork, as I know quite a bit about web socket connections (web bots), I am only responsible for one vote. Given I am from Chicago that is doubly surprising.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

I can understand that. Then, may be you'll have to fill in some of the gap in one way or another. I came up with some similar stuff in y own timeline but some of your choice seem strange. May be you could add some precision to it at your website (and I'm not talking of open talk at the forum).

I did not have my hand at writign the "destroctor" part of the rules. We were all asked to read through it and see if it made sense. While not all of us agreed 100% with EVERYTHING we all thought it was broad enough that it was plausible. Remember gang this is a game and fictional at that. ANYTHING is possible - look we even elected a Black president with a Islamic name who can't/won't prove that he was born in the USA.

[smokewolf]

I can understand that. Then, may be you'll have to fill in some of the gap in one way or another. I came up with some similar stuff in y own timeline but some of your choice seem strange. May be you could add some precision to it at your website (and I'm not talking of open talk at the forum).

So long as things stay civil and respectful, I've no problem sitting down and typing about the thoughts behind the timeline and such. Here or my place doesn't matter to me (if here, if Kato has no problem I'll dual post everything at my place). Feel free to start up a thread asking something and I'll be happy to see if I can help make sense of it all from our point of view. :cool:

[kato13]

Since this got bumped for new votes I thought I would change my original vote. I was "Planning to buy" I am now "T2k timeline and T2k13 rules". I will still use my custom system for task resolution, but I am certainly lifting a significant portion of the T2k13 character creation.

[cavtroop]

Yeah, you can't officially change your vote, but I feel the same. The quick one off I've run so far has convinced me to run T;2013, with the t:2000 v1 timeline (more or less).

If I can ever get everyone together again :)

[kato13]

Yeah, you can't officially change your vote

I can ;) .

Super admin powers activate.

Changed yours similar to mine.

[Targan]

Since this got bumped for new votes I thought I would change my original vote. I was "Planning to buy" I am now "T2k timeline and T2k13 rules". I will still use my custom system for task resolution, but I am certainly lifting a significant portion of the T2k13 character creation.
That sounds like an ideal plan.

[Cdnwolf]

I am also using TW 2013 rules with a combo timeline. I like the TW 2000 timeline because it gives me more precise details on what happened where and thats a big time saver when you are planning a campaign. In TW 2013 the war in Europe is almost a sideshow and the lack of details makes it hard to do a pure military campaign like the original game.

BUT the rest of the rules rock and Smoke just came out with a Shooters Guide for all the gun fanatics.

[Tegyrius]

BUT the rest of the rules rock and Smoke just came out with a Shooters Guide for all the gun fanatics.
That'd be plural, actually. :cool: We have three so far: Pistol-Caliber Carbines (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=59848), Alternate Arms (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=60282), and Cold Warriors (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=63940). A fourth, Undercover Arms, should release on Sunday.

- C.

[pmulcahy11b]

That'd be plural, actually. :cool: We have three so far: Pistol-Caliber Carbines (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=59848), Alternate Arms (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=60282), and Cold Warriors (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=63940). A fourth, Undercover Arms, should release on Sunday.

- C.

Now you tell me, after I've already spent my book budget for the month on Amazon!:(

[Tegyrius]

If it's a PDF, it's not really a book... ;)

- C.

[Targan]

That'd be plural, actually. :cool: We have three so far: Pistol-Caliber Carbines (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=59848), Alternate Arms (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=60282), and Cold Warriors (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=63940). A fourth, Undercover Arms, should release on Sunday.

- C.
Well then DriveThru RPG will have a new customer in Australia on Monday!

[Tegyrius]

That'd be plural, actually. :cool: We have three so far: Pistol-Caliber Carbines (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=59848), Alternate Arms (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=60282), and Cold Warriors (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=63940). A fourth, Undercover Arms, should release on Sunday.

Better late than never! (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=64052)

- C.

[Fusilier]

I browsed through 2013, but don't think I am going to buy.

I don't play any FtF anymore - being the main reason. There are a few things I don't like about it as well, but admit I haven't given much attention to things like autofire and other elements that 2.2 needs improvement.

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, I don't play even PBEM anymore, and I don't plan to convert or come up with any stuff for it unless my Excel-Fu dramatically improves or someone can make me some spreadsheets to do it. If anyone wants to give me a Christmas present, T2K13 spreadsheets would be nice...

[boogiedowndonovan]

I doubt I will buy T2013, I'm not a big fan of the new timeline.

If I do buy it, it will just be to round out my collection.

[Jason]

I have bought T2013 and run games as a GM ftf. I agree that the timeline is a little frustrating. I bought it intending to run the timeline from the book, but I modified the background pretty heavily. The Devs chose to leave things pretty open, and to be honest, that is about my only gripe. I played the original T2K and 2.2 for years and loved the system, but...

T2013 is the best modern combat RPG I have ever had the joy to play. The 'initiative', 'combat steps', and morale all lend that extra level of detail 2.2 lacked. 2.2 is a great system and I love it, but T2013 is better. In character creation and starting gear it also gets the nod. Much more realistic career development system. Anti-munchkin measures are in place. :cool:

[Targan]

T2013 is the best modern combat RPG I have ever had the joy to play. The 'initiative', 'combat steps', and morale all lend that extra level of detail 2.2 lacked. 2.2 is a great system and I love it, but T2013 is better. In character creation and starting gear it also gets the nod. Much more realistic career development system. Anti-munchkin measures are in place. :cool:

I agree that the T2013 system is very good. And for those who prefer "rools lite" it has three levels of complexity.