German III Corps? [Archive]

Graebarde

11-26-2008, 05:05 PM

That's the reason I changed the battle plans for my Operation Fredric. The plan of III Army was to consolidate all the area north of the Warta and west of the Vistula, old Prussia. At the same time they tasked the Yanks to secure the coal fields north of the Warta in the vic. Konin-Kolo area, where the Warta comes from the south and turns west.

The attacks were also prepped with insertion of contact teams. They were hopeful of getting PVA units to turn and drive the Soviets from their country, but alas that wasn't overy successful.

But 5 ID(M) did have a bonified mission, the coal fields. Getting caught by the horde from the east wasn't in the game plan for them however. I had my players as members of a rifle company HQ section (cook, clerk, first sergeant, supply sergeant, medic, mechanic) and stragglers picked up (tank crew from destroyed M1 (they ran out of ammo and fuel) an engineer, a female doctor (whose ambulance hit a mine evacuating critical-injured) and three wounded not hurt badly enough to really deserve the ride in an ambulance.

The 5th was having a fighting withdrawl, but only the elements still north of the Warta. When the pickings got easy, with relatively light resistance, and a lull, the corps commander ordered the division south of the Warta to vic Turek-Uniejow. They were getting pounded and retrograde northwest was ordered. However the Alleycats got spread out far and thin, and cut off SOUTH of the river, then lost communications with higher.

Alas the game came to an end when half the players (RL military) got deployed.

Grae.

Marc

11-26-2008, 05:23 PM

I think that your approach to the III Army offensive makes sense. By the way, I like the idea of a group of characters members of an HQ section.:)

Fusilier

11-27-2008, 01:47 AM

Yeah, if I had started this thread before I probably would have made some changes too. I don't think the 5th actions were originally well thought out by the authors and never really liked the Op Reset myself... (nor do I think the original reason for the 5th to be so far south was due to reset... I think they just came up with that later).

One more question. Going home lists the III Corps back in Germany. So at what date do you figure they crossed back over the border? Did they fight it out hoping to keep some ground or just pack up and leave for Germany?

Targan

11-27-2008, 09:24 AM

The 5th was sacrificed as a smokescreen to cover the Reset mission in Lodz.
I see it that way too although I doubt even the highest command echelons of the 5th realised that was the way things were going to go down. I think Colonel Stark had a big hand in that decision (well that is the way I played it in my current campaign anyway).

Marc

11-27-2008, 11:17 AM

The 5th was sacrificed as a smokescreen to cover the Reset mission in Lodz.

I do not interpret that the paper of the 5th ID as a screening force for "Operation Reset" was premeditated, though in "The Free City of Krakow" it is mentioned that the Special Forces B Team was "masked by the fury of the 5th Division's attack" .

Anyway, not being very comfortable with the Reset device concept, I prefer the kind of explanation proposed by Graebarde. And happily I'm still in time to apply some changes to my campaign setup :rolleyes: .

Legbreaker

12-12-2008, 07:38 AM

This is an assessment of the German 3rd Army spring offensive, why it was undertaken and how it was that the sudden appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army at Lodz was so absolutely disastrous not only to the US 5th ID but to the offensive as a whole.

The 3rd Army, consisting of the German III Corp (6th PGD, 21st PGD, 29th PD, Jutland (Danish) Mechanised Division) and XI US Corp (5th ID, 8th ID, 50th AD, 2nd MARDIV, 4th Canadian Mechanised Brigade and the 116th ACR) were to sweep the Baltic coastline clear of Pact forces. Numbering approximately 30,000 troops and over 185 tanks it was a force more than capable of achieving it's goals, especially when it is considered that no major operations had been conducted in about a year (time in which fuel, food and ammunition was being stockpiled).

At the commencement of the offensive, Pact forces in the area consisted of little more than the remnants of almost all Poland’s military forces (predominately cavalry with mostly 40+ year old tanks). Total Polish strength was barely 20,000 men and 28 tanks. Between them and Czechoslovakia was the might of the Soviet Army - virtually impregnable for the forces of NATO in 2000.

Holding the right flank of the starting position of the offensive was the British army (region of Berlin and Frankfurt). Facing them across well prepared positions was the northern end of the Soviet line. It would have been the British responsibility to hold these Soviet positions with those units already in contact while swinging their reserves up and around behind the 3rd Army to cover their rear. Due to the appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army approximately 700km to the east, these units never moved.

The plan was simple enough in concept and should have been almost simpler in execution. XI US Corp was to lead, perhaps due to the usual American desire to be predominant, maybe because they had been resting longer, or perhaps it was as simple as them being in the best position to begin with. For whatever reason, the US 5th ID found itself the spearhead, tasked with making the initial breakthrough and then bearing south in an attempt to outflank and cut supply lines to Soviet forces close to the German border (the same ones facing the British).

Meanwhile amphibious landings were to be made by the 2nd MARDIV across the river estuaries of northern Poland with the 8th ID heading further east to cut lines of any hope of reinforcement from Russia. The 50th Armoured Division was to fill the gap between the 5th and 8th while 116th ACR and Can 4th Mech Bde were held in reserve.

The remainder of the 3rd Army were tasked with filling the gap between the 5th ID and the British forces. They, like the British, had barely reached the start line recently vacated by the US units before the Soviet 4th Guards Army screwed everything up.

The Polish units directly in the path of the juggernaut US XI Corps, simply melted away in the face of far superior technical and numeric forces rather than submitting to the certainty of defeat and destruction. Heading north in good order they entered the area between Gdansk and Slupsk to begin harassing the northern flank of the offensive. Although cut of from the rest of the Pact forces, their supply needs were minimal due to low numbers and high reliance on horses. Food was also plentiful with rich fishing grounds to three sides. With the Polish withdrawal north, XI Corps were forced to commit the 50th AD to hold them in check until the Canadians and 116th ACR could be brought up to assist with eliminating them.

The Canadians and bulk of 116th ACR however had been called upon to assist the British to hold an increasingly restless Soviet Army. The Germans were due to relieve the Canadians and 116th in place within a week, freeing them to join the 50th AD, crush the under equipped Poles and catch up with the remainder of the XI Corp.

The US 2nd MARDIV commenced it’s move by sea to assault the area from the ruins of Gdansk to Elblag escorted by the only US Destroyer still afloat in within five thousand miles, the USS John Hancock. Although the move was successful, valuable equipment was lost when a supporting vessel struck a sea mine and sunk taking nearly 30% of the divisions stores with it. Fortunately almost all the divisions personnel and armour made it to shore, but within a week were running short on fuel. Ammunition expenditure had been minimal due to the absence of any enemy opposition beyond local militias, while food was plentiful in the mainly agricultural floodplains.

Faced with the growing fuel shortage and lack of significant enemy units within the area to raid for more, the divisional commander chose to move westward with the aim of linking up with the 50th AD and lending what support he could against the trapped Poles.

By the middle of July the situation had changed dramatically for the worse. The US 5th ID was about to face annihilation, the 8th had moved far beyond it’s originally intended area chasing fleeing rear area Pact units, the 50th was stalled, holding the Polish forces in place and waiting for the Canadians and 116th ACR to arrive, and the 2nd Marines were virtually immobile but slowly crawling westward. There was nobody who could rescue the beleaguered 5th ID and the last reported position of the 8th was, amazingly, somewhere in western Russia.

As the sudden appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army had stirred up the entire European front with pressure being brought to bear everywhere, the 3rd Army commander had no choice but to cut his losses and attempt to consolidate what few gains had been made. The German III Corp was given orders to move into positions supporting British and other German units, but before this order could be carried out, the remaining Polish units not trapped by the US 50th AD or in contact with the remnants of the US 5th ID, began exerting northward pressure around the eastern flank of the Canadians and 116th ACR. Soviet units held in reserve moved northward directly against the Canadians forcing them back towards the coast.

What had initially been conceived as a deep penetration into central Poland via the Baltic coast, followed by right swing to cut off Pact forces had suddenly turned into a gigantic trap for the Americans and Canadians as Pact divisions forced their way towards Szczecin. With the German units already on the road elsewhere the race was on between the Americans and Soviets – if the Soviets reached the coastline first, the entire XI Corps would be cut off.

The 2nd MARDIV made contact with the right (east) flank of the 50th AD just in time. Fuel reserves were transferred and suddenly the marines were mobile once more. The bulk of the 50th ADs fighting force was hurriedly redeployed southward to screen the 2nd Marines move from the much more dangerous Soviets (the marines taking over responsibility for holding the Poles back).

Meanwhile the Canadians and 116th ACR fell back under increasing pressure from combined Soviet and Polish forces, towards the Corp HQ at Karlino, unable to do more than slow the oncoming mass of troops and tanks.

Aftermath
The XI Corp is cut off from friendly forces not so much by the Soviets as by the terrain – the Oder river and numerous interconnected lakes form a water barrier from Szczecin to the Baltic. The Corp is still in contact by sea with Germany, but any move to rejoin allied forces would require an offensive against Pact divisions to the south and east of the irradiated ruins of Szczecin. Some supply is possible by available shipping, but there is not enough capacity remaining after the spring debacle to withdraw even a small part of the Corp. Port facilities are likewise limited with most supplies having to be brought directly onto the beaches by small boat.

Graebarde

12-12-2008, 11:55 AM

Good analysis Legbreaker.

Adm.Lee

12-12-2008, 01:05 PM

Graebarde

12-12-2008, 04:15 PM

Pretty good. I'd always figured B/116 Cav was the covering force for the Zulu/Reset operation, and they got hung out to dry.

Sending the 8th and 5th MD's so deep always struck me odd, I wonder now if the XI Corps CG was in his right mind? Or was he fooled by the light opposition into grabbing as much territory as he could.

Or perhaps pushed by HIS commanding general, who was a German. But whom ever was at fault, the grunts on the ground were the ones hung out to dry, which is usually the case.

Grae

Legbreaker

12-12-2008, 07:41 PM

B Troop of 116th ACR was actually tasked with retreiving the Black Madonna and had nothing to do with Operation Reset. Problem is they never linked up with the person carrying their orders so all they know is they were to meet somebody or group of somebodies in central Poland for further orders....

Although the books state the aim of the offensive was to clear the Baltic coast of Pact forces, the presence of the US 5th in the Lodz area implies a more ambitious objective - that of swinging behind the Soviet lines and potentially cutting their line of supply (minimal as it is in 2000). The very threat alone of encirclment, even partial encirclement would force the Soviet and Polish unit to withdraw at least several hundred kilometres.

Unfortunately, the 4th Guards Army appeared and destroyed the spearhead of the offensive (the US 5th ID) while at the same time, instead of the expected withdrawal, Pact units went on the offensive forcing the units which were to have followed on behind the 5th ID to be committed on the German-Poland border.

In my opinion, the US 8th ID were to have halted and established a defensive line from the vicinity of Kalingrad to Olsztyn, the 50th AD fill between there and west of Warsaw with the 5th took responsibility for the southern section down to around Lodz.

The German III Corps would continue the drive down to (and perhaps through) Czestochowa, with a little luck reaching the mountainous Czech-Poland border. Far reaching and ambitious perhaps, and possibly more than could be achieved, but bearing in mind that the aim may have been to force the withdrawal of Pact forces from Western Poland....

The British, the only other force of significance in Europe, would be called upone to fill between the German III Corps and their own positions in the vicinity of Frankfurt.

I believe, even with the various holes and shortcomings, the above is a reasonable assessment/guess on why the 5th were so far to the south. Why they were allowed by the XI Corps commander, or even German 3rd Army Command to move so far ahead of supporting units is a question for another day.

Adm.Lee

12-13-2008, 09:42 AM

Now you've got me thinking of something else. One division, even full strength, couldn't "cut off" much from that deep in the Pact rear. BUT, if there was a single-point to attack, it could do that. What if NATO intel had uncovered tales of a really important supply dump at/near Lodz, and the 5th was tasked to destroy/seize the said items. Same for the 8th?

It didn't have to be a secret, like Reset, but maybe a tale of real petroleum products?

LAW0306

12-13-2008, 02:10 PM

The reason 5th division is inside Poland is that the Game designers had to find a way for characters to be cut off and behind the lines. Thats the only Reason. As the DC group has spent many hours looking over every aspect of the Game our best Ideas is. That the Designers were a army centric group Of Vietnam veterians with not alot of access to referance materials.(Ie books and computers). Now that we do have the stuff its easy to point fingers but we should not. They over looked the Navy and Marine Corps because they had no Idea how to use them. Same with the Air force. So we as a group are trying to fix this under the version 1 timeline without destroying the game integrity. So look to the future for the Maritime guide (Navy, Marine and Coast Guard) Vehicle Guide (Air force and Army) and our US Survivors guide. We also are working on in the future a Commonwealth forces Guide.

The largest factor now that I'm having trouble with is the US Navy. With over 750 ships in service or going into service this is more navy in size and power than the next 5 countrys navys combined. They also have a Air arm thats as large as 4 or 5 countrys air forces combined and much more advanced. With almost 20 carrier wings and 3 Marine wings (Over 500 aircraft just with the marines alone) . Its just hard to kill them all.

On 2d Marine Division in Europe. A Marine division never deploys by itself. It Goes as a Corps level unit(II MEF)( Marine Expeditonary Force)With 2d Force service support group and 2d Marine Aircraft wing making up the MEF. This is over 60,000 Marines with 200 some aircraft! So there will be small changes.

And on the marines gaining vehicles. Its historic for this to happen every war we(USMC) have been in we have come out with more either we steal/accuire from our other sister services or from the enemey. Expect 2 MEF to have vehicles from every country in theater.

(All comments posted here are my own and are not the comments of the DC group thoose are only posted by Chico our editor in chief)

Legbreaker

12-13-2008, 10:22 PM

One statement covers all the above.

It's 4-5 years into a global war which turned nuclear 2 1/2 years before.

Divisions with a full strength of roughly ten thousand men and several hundred MBTs are now lucky to number a third of that in manpower and are likely to possess barely enough tanks to deploy a short company.

Nuclear weapons are not just targeted at cities. They were also aimed at factory complexes, transportation hubs, mining centres, and I'd be supprised if even agricultural capacity wasn't a factor in some of the larger nukes (even just at assessing the fallout zones). Note also troop concentrations were also targeted regularly with some divisions effectively wiped out.

Why wouldn't warships also be targeted? Some of them have crews numbering in the thousands and they're certainly not spread out the way a division is.

Airfields, even roadways capable of landing aircraft on would also be viable targets once restraint had given way to desperation. The planes themselves might be more than capable while in the air, but if they've got nowhere to land, and nobody left to service them once they're there.....

Supply of essential parts, munitions and fuel has been mentioned on many occasions both by the writers and players/GMs. Take the Krakow helicopter as another example - the machine is in perfect working order, but ammunition supply is limited to little more than it flew in with and fuel amounts to just a few hundred litres - maybe an hour or two of flight time. I'm almost certian theres plenty more aircraft out there, grounded for the very same reasons.

Shorthanded as they are (1000 men) the US 8th ID possesses an OH58, two Blackhawks and an Apache, all grounded (most of the time) by lack of fuel (and parts for at least one of the Blackhawks) but still so valuable as to be dragged around Europe by the Division on trucks.

The 2nd MARDIV likewise possesses at least one CV-22 Osprey based on the USS Tarawa (Plate C1, Nautical/Aviation Handbook). This reference also implies (along with the reference to the USS John Hancock in Going Home) that there is still at least some naval capacity (mostly likely heavily damaged from the aformentioned nukes and conventional attacks) but limited once again by lack of fuel, munitions and spare parts.

With regard to a marine division not deploying alone, the 2nd Marines in the spring offensive certainly did not! They were a part of a MUCH larger operation which involved the forces of at least four countries (the US, Germany, Canada and Denmark - the British possibly as I have written previously) with wide reaching aims. The 2nd Marines were also the only NATO marine force in Europe (besides the 500 strong UK 1st Royal Marine Brigade in Norway) and therefore the only unit capable of fulfilling the task of "launching amphibious assaults against the Polish Baltic Coast and across the estuary of the Vistula".

I would also point out that the divsion, listed on the 1st of July 2000 at a strength of 4000 men, is far stronger than the real life US 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Marine_Expeditionary_Unit with only approximately 2,200 men. I'm fairly certain there's plenty of support personel amongst the 4000 of the 2nd Marines and as mentioned above, air support is likely to be virtually nonexistant for all sides by that stage of the war. The Osprey above may in fact have been the only operational aircraft of any type within several hundred miles and reserved purely for emergencies (URGENT casualty evacuation for example).

Now the point I think most people tend to forget is units even of divisional size do not act without orders from above. Other divisions within the Corp undoubtably have their own missons, sometimes in support of each other, sometimes seperate, but there is almost always a guiding hand at the Corp or Army level.

Take the Allied operations in Europe in 1944-45. Eisenhower was in overall command of all allied forces with Patton and Montgomery in command of seperate armies consisting of a number of divisions. Breaking it down further and using Operation Market Garden as an example, we see individual divisions, all operating within a relatively narrow corridor, tasked with individual objectives, some of which were acheived, others which were not (the British Airborne at Arnhem springs to mind).

Therefore, I believe the only way possible to justify the presence of the US 5th ID at Lodz is if you take a step back and look at the big picture. Even just stepping back to the Corp level isn't far enough though - it only begins to make sense when you look at the European theatre as a whole and consider that the 5th ID was just the spearhead of a drive designed to force the Pact armies to withdraw and secure their lines of supply and communication (limited as they were by 2000).

Individual objectives such as securing coal fields would be simply a side benefit of the overall offensive.

kato13

12-13-2008, 10:31 PM

Shorthanded as they are (1000 men) the US 8th ID possesses an OH58, two Blackhawks and an Apache, all grounded (most of the time) by lack of fuel (and parts for at least one of the Blackhawks) but still so valuable as to be dragged around Europe by the Division on trucks.

The 8th Mechanized, if we are to believe the order of battle, actually has more firepower man per man than a prewar division. I always felt that was insane. I chalked it up to a 60%+ causality rate from a particularly virulent flu after the 2000 assault began. This left the 8th trapped by the volume of equipment they had. I literally spent months trying to build a realistic support structure for the amount of equipment described in the Eastern European sourcebook, to no avail.

I mentioned this in an older thread (unfortunately lost in the great purge before we moved to our new home)

Legbreaker

12-13-2008, 10:55 PM

kato13

12-13-2008, 11:07 PM

Maybe this oversupply of firepower was one of the reasons the Division was chosen to hald the left flank/conduct deep penetration (depending on how you see the Divisions role within the overall 3rd Army offensive)?

I do believe that 42 M2 Bradleys as stated in the EE book has to be a misprint. 22 might be a more accurate figure, perhaps less, especially as it's stated the infantry component of the division is mainly carried in trucks.

Another factor which may have reduced troop number while keeping equipment levels relatively high is radiation. Perhaps dismounted elements of the division passed too close to a crater?

I would also like to think there are 22 Bradleys but the fact that there are 9 M109s and 4 MLRS makes me believe that someone took the total numbers for pieces of equipment for a mechanized division, and divided it by somewhere between 6 and 12 (with helicopters geting divided by a larger factor)

Radiation + Disease might be a good explanation for large human causalities without the corresponding equipment losses.

LAW0306

12-13-2008, 11:15 PM

I wont even waste my time trying to talk to you. the things you bring up make no sense..2d marines is a regiment,they belong to 2d marine division a 20,000 man orginisation about 1/3 larger than a army division in RL. The tarawa is a west coast ship another example of the books being wrong. Please dont respond to my threads in the future unless you have your basic facts strait.

and by they way the forces in world war two were divided into divisions,corps and armys. the units at market garden were in a corps and army level battle they all had higher level headquarters..

Platoon
company
Battalion
regiment
Division
Marine expaditionary force (Corps)

Legbreaker

12-13-2008, 11:24 PM

Once again, it is you mixing up a GAME with REALITY.

Several years of war has passed. Things change in war. My assessements have been made on what is published in the game materials with some reference to reality.

To begin with, no assessment of T2K situations can be based on what is IRL now but must instead begin from the divergence back in the very early 1990s (91 I believe when the coup occured in Moskow).

Who's to say ships remained where they were assigned almost ten years previously? Who can honestly say a marine division such as the 2nd mentioned in the books, has still got it's prewar paper strength of 20,000 you quoted.

Once again Law, you've shown your inability to suspend disbelief and work within the confines of previously established information. Sure that information may be wrong in relation to reality, but the world of T2K is essentially a paralell universe - you just CAN'T apply the same concepts, unit compositions, histories, etc.

Hell, even the laws of physics have been changed in T2K to reduce the half life of fallout to make the planet livable!

Once again, REAL LIFE FACT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!

LAW0306

12-13-2008, 11:36 PM

your right i was talking pre war strenght.... I was talking about that in the post. read all of what i say before you return. ships in the US navy stay on certian areas of the world to perform missions and very raerly change sides . this is due to us being uneven in world war Two and having to do it. once again leg we do battle you have no knowledge or real world or the exp and fight from behind the screen ...a great friend told me last week only fools fight online so i wont. just stay out of my ecr and dont return posts on any of my subject matter usless you have an informed response and have read everything in depth.

kato13

12-14-2008, 02:17 AM

Legbreaker

12-14-2008, 07:17 AM

Every game is going to end up different. Every GM will pull from whatever sources they feel provides what they need (factual or fictional).

I hope we can all state our opinions and remember that in the end it is just a game.
Exactly my point. It's just a game but one that has certain facts already established, one of which is that "the last major naval fleet in being in the world has been shattered" by June 1997. Surely it can be argued that for any major operation such as the one in Spring 2000, resources would need to be pulled from around the world simply to make it possible, especially as this occured before any nuclear weapons were used further decimating naval forces?

Oh and Law, as you should well know I have a wealth of military experience, probably far more than most. Just because I am not American (and proud of it!) does not make my opinions and knowledge of any less value.

kato13

12-14-2008, 07:30 AM

I hope this board remains one where we all can have a choice. Be it Pure canon V1, Enhanced canon V1 (DC working group), V2, T2013, a custom build, or any where in between.

The quote that belongs to my nick's namesake which sums up my opinion of all this is

"Research your own experience, absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is specifically your own."

"Then walk on"

Raellus

12-14-2008, 03:07 PM

I agree that on the face of it- especially considering the principals of conventional land warfare established over the last 70 years- that the V Corps offensive described in canon doesn't make perfect sense.

On the other hand, one has to consider that by the summer of 2000, warfare has changed somewhat. Gone are the days of continuous fronts, operational defense in depth, and so on. Heck, by 2000, units have to grow their own food! Under the circumstances prevailing at that [fictional] time, I believe the Summer Offensive of T2K canon is plausible.

I agree that the ORBAT could do with some modifications, but I am also of the opinion that the alternative history established in canon should not be altered too much. If things aren't addressed in canon, then by all means they can and should be fleshed out. But, if they are specifically mentioned in canon, ways should be found to reconcile discrepencies with RL before wholesale changes are made.

This is, of course, just my opinion.

Perhaps T2Kers should take a page from the classic Sci-Fi RPG Traveller which encourages players to deviate from canon when it suits their gaming needs. They even have acronyms for personalized game settings- MTU (my Traveller Universe), YTU (Your Traveller Universe), etc.

Targan

12-14-2008, 08:55 PM

I agree with everything Raellus said in the previous post.

pmulcahy11b

12-14-2008, 10:03 PM

Once again, REAL LIFE FACT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!

Well, somebody's thinking! Realism's great -- to a point, and T2K demands more than most games, but it can be taken too far. Rules lawyers drive me insane. I remember playing D&D with rules lawyers, and you finally just burst out, "You're fighting an Ogre Magi and you want absolute realism?!"

Mohoender

12-15-2008, 01:38 AM

Well, somebody's thinking! Realism's great -- to a point, and T2K demands more than most games, but it can be taken too far. Rules lawyers drive me insane. I remember playing D&D with rules lawyers, and you finally just burst out, "You're fighting an Ogre Magi and you want absolute realism?!"

So true, so true:rolleyes:

Marc

12-17-2008, 09:00 AM

Bona dia!

I like the argumentation of Legbreaker about the NATO offensive. In fact, I've translated it to Catalan to use it in my current campaign. Sadly I have not all the material published about T2K but Legbreaker's description has given to me a good overall vision of the canon operation. I will only add one point of my own harvest but without going too far away from the canon. I 've just started a new campaign with two group of players and with the characters being members of the 5th Infantry Division, but chronologically beginning with the initial stages of the NATO offensive. I've chosen to run a mini-campaign that will end with the Battle of Kalisz, as a way to introduce my players to the Twilight world in a more "guided way", still being members of an operational military structure. And, with great pleasure for me, they are newbies in the Twilight world and totally unaware of the fate that waits for the 5th ID in Kalisz.

In my initial setup, the position of the Canadian, American and British units in Germany is somewhat embarrassing. They have not adopted the cantonment system yet, knowing that it probably implies the future inability to develop any future offensive action. But they lack the resources to keep their units fully operational without exerting some kind of serious control about an extensive area, like the German units in their cantonments. So they are partially supplied of food and fuel provided by the Germans. This have originated a growing discontent among the overstretched civilians living in the German cantonments. Of course civilian population still feel a certain degree of gratitude toward their allied units. But they think that a lot of time has passed without any important activity in the European theater. Americans , British and Canadians have an important problem in the growing numbers of desertions. A lot of soldiers think that in he current situation their parent units could not provide the necessary means of support and that their lives could be better if they look for their own interest in small groups beyond the military structure. Every day, more soldiers choose to desert. The idea of a possible evacuation to their respective countries acts still as powerful cohesion factor, but morale is low. Finally, the decision about a new offensive is made.The objective is to obtain the lands for the future cantonments for the US, Brits and Canadians. The Germans, feeling in debt, will help, though they are reluctant to leave their cantonment areas partially unprotected and some warning voices point that a new major action in Poland could reactivate the war in Europe. The XI Corps, the bulk of the non-German forces in the German - Poland area, would lead the way. The final effort that could provide to NATO units with their own feuds, avoiding their disintegration as a combatative force.

Marc

12-22-2008, 04:50 AM

The 5th was sacrificed as a smokescreen to cover the Reset mission in Lodz.

I've found this quote in the "Free city of Krakow" module by chance, while preparing my campaign:

"... The operation was code-named Reset, and Strike Zulu was hurriedly organized to coincide with the big offensive. In some circles, the offensive was considered to be a diversion for Operation Reset. ..."

It looks like, as good scriptwriters, the people of GDW were trying to leave some loose ends to tie up. :rolleyes:

Targan

12-22-2008, 05:18 AM

OT question from someone who has never visited Spain - how different is Catalan to Spanish?

Legbreaker

12-22-2008, 05:50 AM

"... The operation was code-named Reset, and Strike Zulu was hurriedly organized to coincide with the big offensive. In some circles, the offensive was considered to be a diversion for Operation Reset. ..."
...and I think that completely destroys anyones arguement for the US 5th ID being sent to Lodz for Reset.
The only plausible explaination the 5th was so far south is if they were just one small part of a much bigger picture. One little SF mission, important as it may be, is far from sufficient to warrant sacrificing an entire division (especially one of the strongest in Nato prior to the offensive).
Simply put, the 5th were destroyed due to a long line of bad intel, decisions and (I hate to say it) luck.

kato13

12-22-2008, 06:05 AM

Marc

12-22-2008, 08:10 AM

OT question from someone who has never visited Spain - how different is Catalan to Spanish?

I suppose that you're talking about the language, Targan. If not, please correct me. Catalan is just another romanic language that evolves from the common Latin in parallel to the French, the Castilian (Spanish) or the Italian, among others. The distance between Spanish and Catalan could be equivalent to the distance that exists between Italian and Spanish, or between Portuguese and Spanish. Basically, and open-minded spanish, can easily understand a conversation in Catalan in one month. And of course, he or she can try to speak in Catalan with the same ease. Catalan coexists with the Spanish as official language in Catalonia. It's a common fact (and a dangerous fact for the survival of my language) that the catalan switch from one language to the other without realizing it, in function of the language used by the other speaker. So, a lot of immigrants from the rest of Spain, though understanding the Catalan,choose not to speak it.

Ah! Finally, we do not use the spanish Ã±, but we do use ` Â¨ Ã§

Haven

12-22-2008, 10:14 AM

The writers exaggerated RESETs importance to make the players feel the mission was more important. The modules expose the players to quite a few "only one left" or "world altering" situations. The last train, the last Attack sub, the last Boomer, cold fusion information, General Cummings granddaughter, 486 tons of gold, the only satellite containing world altering information. These are just the ones I remember offhand.

Trying to have a single group of soldiers, by chance, performing all of these missions is going to require a step back from reality. That is why it is so hard to reconcile some parts of canon.

edit forgot Reset Itselt, THe Black Madonna, The Pennslyvania cache, the blimps
will add more as I remember.

Bingo! Which is why I've never been one to use the 'canon' scenarios to play and only to provide additional background info that everyone can agree on.

If you do choose to use the canon i think you should already be prepared to accept some 'wha?' moments like why the 5th would be so far south (or find a reason for them to be - like this thread is discussing).

Pick your FICTION.

Webstral

12-23-2008, 07:34 PM

Although the books state the aim of the offensive was to clear the Baltic coast of Pact forces, the presence of the US 5th in the Lodz area implies a more ambitious objective - that of swinging behind the Soviet lines and potentially cutting their line of supply (minimal as it is in 2000). The very threat alone of encirclment, even partial encirclement would force the Soviet and Polish unit to withdraw at least several hundred kilometres.

A very interesting supposition. I like it. Certainly, the occupation of Poland west of the Warta would have been a high priority for the Germans. I do believe that SACEUR would have wanted the Baltic coast cleared as far east as possible for access to fishing and shipping. Nevertheless, causing the Pact forces in western Poland to withdraw east and south would have provided NATO with a lot of advantages. As an added extra-special bonus, a southward thrust oriented behind the "front line" Pact forces in western Poland would have been a far less costly means of displacing the Pact formations than frontal attacks. The light infantry actions of 1999 would have revealed that both sides were building extensive defensive works that would be expensive to break by frontal assault. All very interesting...

Webstral

Marc

11-11-2009, 08:41 AM

Bon dia!

We're still working in the material of our future site and we would like to add the following map about the 3rd German Army in northern Poland:

822

The map is based in Legbreaker's analysis about the operation and our purpose is to give only a visual help for the referees running our pre-Kalisz campaign, with only the "main lines" of the NATO plotted movements. The typical map we find in the history books without entering in many details.Take into account that it is a map about the plan and not about the development of the offensive itself. Before add it to our site I would like to know any opinion from you, guys. Do you think that anything important must be changed or added?

Of course, the initial positions are fruit of our imagination, but we have followed the clue that we know that the British Army was facing the Soviets around Frankfurt and that the 5th ID starting point was in the Chojnice/Człuchów area. So we have chosen the line between Frankfurt and Chojnice/Człuchów to distribute the starting positions for the NATO units implied in the offensive, roughly along the main road between Gorzów Wielkopolski and Gdansk.

Thanks in advance!

Marc

11-11-2009, 04:32 PM

Mmmmm... I've just edited the map in he last post. All the units and lines seemed to be displaced to the east.

Legbreaker

11-11-2009, 06:34 PM

Marc

11-11-2009, 07:06 PM

From my research for the analysis, the north end of the start line is way too far east. With a startline where you've marked, it makes much of the first few weeks of the offensive a cakewalk for NATO, totally changing the ultimate outcome. I'll try to mark out the start positions as I assessed them in the next few days.

Great, then I will redraw the map with your modified initial positions.

I also envisaged the offensive as more of a fish hook in shape, III Corp pushing eastward several hundred kilometres before swinging south to cut off Pact units, or at least threaten encirclment against the mountains to the south.

I've drawn the plotted movements of the German III Corp in south-east direction to not interfere with the path of the 5th ID as described in "Escape from Kalisz". Perhaps it would be better to make this movement a little longer and then turn them to the south or even the south-west to look for the soviet rear, with the fish hook shape you say.

The 2nd Marines were also conducting an encirclement operation, but on a much smaller scale. It was their task to take the river delta, but also push inland to cut off the northern Polish troops and allow the 8th ID an easier time of it.

Obviously almost no unit actually reached their objectives for a variety of reason. However, the 8th was probably the most sucessfull of all the NATO divisions, overshooting their objective by an embarassing distance.

One possibility is to attribute part of the success of the 8th to a quick victory over the Polish units directly in its path of advance before the other Polish units "dissoluted" in front of the III Corps (or even in front of the 5th ID) initiated their movement toward the north to harass the left flank of the NATO. Althought the 8th archieved successful deep penetration, a more slower advance could have helped to consolidate the Baltic Coast wiht the 5th Armored and the 2nd Marines once the things started to fall apart.

BTW: What about the gap between the 50th Armored and the 5th ID. Perhaps it was supposed to be covered by the Canadians and the 116th ACR?Could they delay in disengage from the British/Soviet "front" have been the cause for the dangeroulsy exposed left flank of the 5th ID?

Marc

11-11-2009, 07:26 PM

Mmmm...I've just noticed I missed the proper symbol for the 21th Panzergrenadier Division. I will arrange it in the next version of the map.

Another possibility is that the 50th Armored was to follow the advance of the 5th ID, covering its right flank, while the Canadians and the 116 ACR must fill the gap between the 50th and the 8th. Again, the delay of these two units forced the harassing Polish units from the south could be the critical factors before the start of the Soviet counteroffensive.

Legbreaker

11-11-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:
"Meanwhile amphibious landings were to be made by the 2nd MARDIV across the river estuaries of northern Poland with the 8th ID heading further east to cut lines of any hope of reinforcement from Russia. The 50th Armoured Division was to fill the gap between the 5th and 8th while 116th ACR and Can 4th Mech Bde were held in reserve.

The remainder of the 3rd Army were tasked with filling the gap between the 5th ID and the British forces. They, like the British, had barely reached the start line recently vacated by the US units before the Soviet 4th Guards Army screwed everything up."

XI Corp were to be the spearhead with the German Divisions following along behind. It would have been up to the Germans to protect the southern flank allowing the Americans to remain on the offensive.

Unfortunately the Pact forces moved before the Germans could really get moving and so the US 50th AD, 116 ACR and Canadian 4th Mechanised Brigade had to be pulled form the offensive and retasked to flank and supply line protection. After the dust settled, the Germans (and British) had barely moved from the cantonments they'd been occupying for the previous year or two. Ultimately this was a good thing (or as good as could be hoped for) as only the US 5th and 8th ID were lost instead of most of an army...

Cdnwolf

11-12-2009, 06:19 AM

Okay just a query... with all the unrest happening in Canada... what the heck were the troops still doing over in Europe?

But great information folks...

I would still love to see more of what happened in the Austria, Hungary, Italy region and anything on the importance of the Danube River in the war.

Legbreaker

11-12-2009, 04:39 PM

Why are there US troops still in Iraq even though the US is apparently having "cash flow" issues?

Politics has to play a big part both there and in T2K.

More impportantly perhaps, at least on a day to day level, is the severe lack of available transportation to take them home again.

Targan

11-12-2009, 06:43 PM

Politics has to play a big part both there and in T2K.

So true. After the US governmental scism both MilGov and CivGov continued to send troops to Europe despite those troops being desperately needed at home. That seems to me to have been mostly politically motivated (and perhaps a case of "one upmanship").

Webstral

11-13-2009, 12:23 AM

So true. After the US governmental scism both MilGov and CivGov continued to send troops to Europe despite those troops being desperately needed at home. That seems to me to have been mostly politically motivated (and perhaps a case of "one upmanship").

It's so completely [expletive deleted] up that it rings true. I abhor the idea, therefore I love it.

Webstral

Cdnwolf

11-13-2009, 03:54 PM

I meant the CANADIAN troops only...lol.

Okay heres something that I am curious about... what happened in Europe after the American troops came home?

I think I read something about it in one of the DC group papers but wasn't sure.

Fusilier

11-14-2009, 01:20 AM

Legbreaker

11-15-2009, 04:48 AM

Going Home module has some insight to this.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=9184#post9184 should give you an idea or two.
Basically the Canadians, along with the rest of what's left of the XI Corp (less the 8th ID), are stuck. They're not technically behind enemy lines, but to withdraw back into Germany requires movement into and through Pact controlled areas.

Raellus

11-27-2009, 09:12 AM

I'm still having trouble reconciling 3rd Army's failed offensive with the Soviet/WTO forces present in northern Poland.

What Soviet and WTO units are involved in attempting to cut off the 3rd Army spearheads along the Baltic Coast? The map in the v2.2 rulebook and the unit location listings in the U.S., Soviet, and NATO vehicle guides don't place any powerful Soviet/WTO units in the north. For the most part, the only WTO listed near the Baltic coast are weak horse cavalry and BG units. The Polish 9th MRD is the only WTO unit in the region with any significant armor/heavy weapons.

5th ID's destruction makes plenty of sense considering the correlation of forces in the Lodz-Kalisz area. Based on the mauling the 5th ID gave most of the Soviet and WTO units involved in its destruction, it doesn't seem like those units could have turned north to stop significant NATO 3rd Army forces or even threaten its right flank enough to halt operations along the Baltic Coast.

As Leg pointed out, 3rd Army contains two tank divisions, five mechanized infantry/panzergrenadier divisions, one Marine division, and an ACR. It shouldn't have had any trouble clearing the coast and sending additional units south to support 5th ID.

If it's a case of halting units due to a larger Soviet counteroffensive to the south, why are the units of the 3rd Army still listed as being in northern Poland and Germany? One would assume that if they were stopped due to pressure on the UK forces in west-central Poland, at least a few of the units (probably the 3 German divisions) would be shifted south to shore up the British or attempt to retake ground lost to the Reds. From looking at the correlation of forces in the UK area of responsibility, it looks like the Soviet and WTO units could pretty easily take Berlin if they wanted too. Yet canon shies away from even mentioning a broader Soviet or NATO offensive. They make it sound like the 3rd Army's offensive is the only show in town.

I don't know what the game designers were thinking to make NATO so much more powerful in the north and the Soviets significantly more powerful in the south. The situation as of late July 2000 would make much more sense if the forces were more evenly matched along the front.

And then there's the status report for the 2nd Marine Div. in the U.S. Army Vehicle Guide. It says that the location and status of the division is unkown after its amphib assaults along the Baltic Coast. This suggests that it is in a state of distress. If the 8th Mech. ID's location in LATVIA (I still don't know what the designers were thinking there) is known, then something must be wrong with the Marines. Trouble is, I just don't see a bunch of relatively small Polish horse cavalry and BG units being able to crush a Marine division. Wouldn't the 8th ID and Marines have operated together for at least part of the duration of the 8th drive to Latvia? What about other follow-on 3rd Army units? Besides the 5th ID, what are the German armored and PZGr units doing? Or the Canadians, Danes, and U.S. TD and ACR? More than 75% of the 3rd Army is unaccounted for during its offensive. If the Germans aren't participating, why is an American Corps subordinated to them? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I'm really trying to explain the offensive's failure. 5th ID's part in it is clear cut but the rest is a muddled mess. Are there any Challenge articles about the rest of the summer offensive?

It just doesn't make any sense.

Raellus

11-27-2009, 01:18 PM

After a little more research, it's clear that there are a couple more relatively powerful Polish divisions in the Baltic region that could have helped blunt 3rd Army's offensive. In particular, the 1st MRD (2500/7), the 9th MRD (2500/10), and the 5th TD (3500/16). There's also the 17th CD (2000), 12th CD (1500), 3rd CD (1000), and 7th MarDiv (only 600 men but presumably "elite" troops).

I also went looking for Soviet units in the Baltic states that could have been sent to deal with 3rd Army. Most of the units listed as being in the Ukraine are either in full revolt or engaged in attempting to suppress it so I figure they would be busy and unavailable. A couple of units in Belarus are also listed as being engaged fighting the Ukranian separatists so that eliminates them.

The following units are posted in Belarus and apparently unengaged during 3rd Army's offensive and could therefore have participated in a counterattack. Units marked with an asterix are the ones I see as being most likely to be involved.

22nd TD (2000)
3rd MRD (2000/10)*
138th MRD (4000/20)*
83rd AAB (600)*

The following units are posted in Latvia. One issue here is the 26th GMRD's (4000/28) mutiny (they are garrisoning the newly free city of Riga). I would assume, therefore, that the other, loyal Soviet units listed in Riga are probably going to be busy dealing with the 26th. On the other hand, maybe the Soviets have assessed the threat posed by 3rd Army's offensive as being much greater and have decided to deal with it first. That could free up the following units for a counterattack against the 3rd Army.

40th GMRD (500/4)
40th MRD (500/4) -an odd coincidence but that's what the v1.0 SVG says.
107th MRD (4000/36)*

If the above units- or just a few of them- were involved in a counterattack against 3rd Army's offensive, it would explain a lot.

Legbreaker

11-27-2009, 11:39 PM

Yes, the 3rd does appear to be very strong on the face of it, but they also have a terrible weakness - fuel.
In my assessment of the offensive written a while back, I came to the conclusion that the 2nd Marines had to have suffered some sort of catasrophy and the units following along behind the 5th and 8th had to have been held up.

The most appropriate event I could think of for the marines was the sinking of their supply ship and almost total loss of fuel reserves. This meant their mobility and firepower suddenly became a lead weight around their necks as they were reduced to rationing what little was left in vehicle tanks and operating on foot.

The poor state of units in northern Poland as shown in Canon are after the offensive - they'd been battered and torn apart by the 5th, 8th, 2nd marines and then 50th AD and assorted smaller units. While not particularly strong or capable of significant offensive action on their own, they were still a thorn in the side of XI Corp and needed to be hedged in. Therefore, until the following German units could be brought up, the 50th AD, 116 ACR and the Canadians had to pause their forward movement and secure the flanks.

Unfortunately, the Pact forces in the south took offensive action of their own shortly after Nato began it's eastward move. I've had them apply pressure to the southern areas as well as drive northward towards the Baltic Sea to cut off the XI Corps. With the pressure placed upon the British, the Germans had little option but to reinforce Southern Germany instead of following the US XI Corp, or risk the Soviets breaking through into some of their most important lands.

The Pact forces did not act in response to the Nato offensive - they had planned the attack months, if not a year or more ahead. I envisiage they intended to place the bulk of their effort into the south, however Nato moved first. To prevent the Pact offensive being cut off they had two options - withdraw as was hoped by Nato command, or modify their plans. They chose the latter and took a chance - this of course was to redirect their reinforcement units nortward to cut of the XI Corp, much like Nato was trying to do to the Soviets.

Neither side suceeded, or at least not as well as they'd hoped. The Pact forces battered themselves to exhaustion against the British, Germans and US units in Western Poland but did manage to fix the XI Corp in position in north west Poland where they still were in November. The units around Kalisz were rushed in from Russia and the Ukraine using fuel from Romania. I'm certain this move had not been intended as part of their offensive, but was prompted by a very strong US infantry division wandering about in central Poland causing no end of trouble. If these units had been intended to take part in the offensive, they would have been brought up much slower in the months beforehand, thereby saving the hundreds of thousands of litres of petroleum based fuels.

Nato managed to halt the Pact offensive, however lost the two US divisions who had made it to their objective areas (5th and 8th). They also ended up with the rest of XI Corp effectively cut off from Nato lines (although otherwise in reasonable shape). Nato probably gained more ground than the Pact overall, but only because they moved first (the area XI Corp is squatting on). Nato's offensive also spoiled what would have been a devastating Pact offensive in that it caused Pact reinforcements to be redeployed, easing pressure in the south and allowing those Nato units to survive.

I hope that rambling makes sense.

Targan

11-28-2009, 12:32 AM

In my assessment of the offensive written a while back, I came to the conclusion that the 2nd Marines had to have suffered some sort of catasrophy and the units following along behind the 5th and 8th had to have been held up.

The most appropriate event I could think of for the marines was the sinking of their supply ship and almost total loss of fuel reserves. This meant their mobility and firepower suddenly became a lead weight around their necks as they were reduced to rationing what little was left in vehicle tanks and operating on foot.

A really severe, unforseen storm would do the job nicely. Entirely plausible too.

Legbreaker

11-28-2009, 07:47 AM

I think I had a couple of Soviet coastal patrol boats or similar torpedo the largest of the cargo ships right after the bulk of the combat vehicles had been offloaded. Left the 2nd with plenty of firepower for the intial landing, but once the fuel in the tanks ran out...

Raellus

11-28-2009, 11:08 AM

Yes, the 3rd does appear to be very strong on the face of it, but they also have a terrible weakness - fuel.
In my assessment of the offensive written a while back, I came to the conclusion that the 2nd Marines had to have suffered some sort of catasrophy and the units following along behind the 5th and 8th had to have been held up.

The most appropriate event I could think of for the marines was the sinking of their supply ship and almost total loss of fuel reserves. This meant their mobility and firepower suddenly became a lead weight around their necks as they were reduced to rationing what little was left in vehicle tanks and operating on foot.

This is a good solution for the 2nd Marines. I also like Targan's idea of a fierce summer storm on the Baltic. It happened shortly after D-Day during the Normandy campaign in '44 and I would argue that the weather is even more unpredictable with all of the particulates from nuclear explosions hanging around in the upper atmosphere.

I do think that you may be overstating the fuel situation somewhat- not insofar as the shortage thereof, but in the impact fuel shortages would have on division-sized units during offensive operations c. 2000. In Escape from Kalisz, it is written that the 3rd Army spent the spring brewing fuel. It also mentions the 5th ID, or significant elements thereof, stopping several times on its long right hook to brew up more. It looks like armies in 2000 are used to this sort of stop and go thing.

As you also mentioned, it may be more a matter of 2nd MarDiv losing its resupply of ammunition more than running out of fuel.

The poor state of units in northern Poland as shown in Canon are after the offensive - they'd been battered and torn apart by the 5th, 8th, 2nd marines and then 50th AD and assorted smaller units. While not particularly strong or capable of significant offensive action on their own, they were still a thorn in the side of XI Corp and needed to be hedged in.

This is a really good point that I hadn't fully considered. My question about final unit placements still stands, though. With the WTO forces in northern Poland no longer able to mount significant offensive operations (as of 7/00), why is the entire NATO 3rd Army still posted opposite them? Especially since, glancing at the situation map in the back of the v2.2 rulebook, there are numerous, relatively powerful Soviet forces (mostly MRDs and TDs) further south, facing just a handful of NATO units. As I mentioned before, the correlation of forces displayed on the map is remarkably uneven, with NATO more powerful in northern Poland, and the Soviets more powerful in the south. It seriously looks like 3rd Army could brush aside the various small CDs facing them and drive all the way to Moscow through northern Poland and the rebellious Baltic states. It also looks like the Red Army in west-central Poland could easily capture Berlin and drive on to the Rhine. One would think that if Soviet reinforcements were sent north to stop 3rd Army, they would remain opposite once the fighting died down. Shifting them all back south after the hypothetical counterattacks doesn't make a lot of operational or strategic sense.

I like your analysis/explanation of the failure of 3rd Army's offensive but not all of it squares with the final unit locations given in canon.

Also, on a more selfish note, I need a way to strand small German, Canadian, and Danish forces along the Baltic coast east of Gdansk, and not just SF. Stranding elements of U.S. units are no problem due to the situation with the 2nd MarDiv and the 8th ID's bizzare drive into Latvia.

Legbreaker

11-29-2009, 06:40 AM

In Going Home, it's stated the 2nd Marines have equipment and personnel from seven different nationalites amongst it's ranks and it's implied these were picked up during or after the offensive.
I believe the 2nd was tasked with the area from Gdansk eastward almost to Elblag (their orders were to launch amphibious assault onthe Polish Baltic Coast and across the Vistula estuary). It is conceivable that small numbers of Germans, Canadians, and Danes were attached to the division as liason units (likely Intelligence, MP, that sort of thing), and absorbed into the division once it was realised the XI Corp was cut off and they couldn't return to the home units.

A lack of ammunition doesn't ring true to me as one of the factors of the 2nd Marine situation. It is stated in Going Home that this division actualy gained strength as a result of the offensive. Whatever it was that caused them to be so crippled as to withdraw back westward, had to have been relatively big, but temporary in nature - fuel seems to be the only thing that fits.

In addition to the loss of the actual fuel carried aboard the ship(s), perhaps the bulk of the divisions stills were also lost? This would allow them to regain some measure of mobility once replacements have been constructed, a process which is likely to have taken several weeks since they would need to acquire the necessary materials first.

As for the rest of your comments, I'll post something on them in the next day or two. They're good points and need some serious thought...

Raellus

11-29-2009, 09:22 AM

True, losing its stills would be a serious blow to the 2nd MarDiv and would all but halt its offensive operations. It raises a problem, though. Without any fuel, how would it get back to northern Germany? It would presumably have to abandon almost all of its vehicles. This would certainly not make it "more powerful" as Going Home implies (I haven't looked at it myself, so I'm taking your word for it). If anything, it would make the division less powerful.

EDIT: Leg, I just reread your post and absorbed the bit about scavenging/building new stills. That might work. It would strand the 2nd MarDiv for a while (explaining the comment about "its location and status are unknown" in the U.S.A.V.G.) yet allow them to get back to N. Germany eventually, as the GH module says it does.

In my mind, I too have the 2nd MarDiv landing between Gdansk and Elblag, then pushing south, southeast to cover the 8th ID's right flank as it pushes west on its end-run along the Baltic Coast. I would also like to include the Danish Jutland division, the Canadian mechanized brigade (and/or para regiment) and at least one of the German units in the operations on or near the Baltic coast to account for stragglers of each nationality in the region after the failure of the offensive.

And that brings us back to the question of why the 3rd Army's offensive failed and/or was stopped and why all of its constituent units remain in northern Germany despite significant threats on other sectors of the "front".

I still have a problem with the 3rd Army just stopping its offensive and pulling back to its start lines in northern Poland. Why doesn't it detach units to follow the 5th ID south and hit its antagonists in their flank? Why are no additional units sent to support the 8th ID's mission? Why doesn't it at least shift units south, southwest to face the newly discovered Soviet units responsible for the 5th ID's destruction? What about the imbalance in the correlation of forces in west central Poland? Why aren't those addressed at all?

Canon doesn't seem to give any clues. The writers made a mess of it and, instead of addressing the inconsistencies, they just gloss over them. They put a lot of time and effort into explaining/describing the destruction of the 5th ID and apparenty none to how the rest of 3rd Army's missions played out and, ultimately failed. Unless someone finds a canonical explanation somewhere (Challenge, maybe?), that leaves it up to us.

What about a nuke? Even if it didn't hit any of the 3rd Army's units, it could conceivably stop them in their tracks.

What about a mutiny? Did one or more of the 3rd Army's constituent units refuse orders to advance?

It doesn't seem like any of the national governments involved would have the power in mid 2000 to stop a large scale offensive in its tracks. Why would they want to anyway?

What about Soviet reinforcements from Belarus and/or Latvia? AFAIK, canon makes no mention of this, but it could explain the blunting of 3rd Army's drive and also why the entirety of 3rd Army remained in N. Germany (as opposed to shifting south to face the much stronger Soviet forces shown as present in west central Poland and east Germany).

Legbreaker

11-29-2009, 04:26 PM

I had the 2nd crawl very slowly west to link up with the following units of the XI Corp. One of the conrtibuting reasons why the 3rd army did not follow on was that the vehicle heavy 2nd, which at the time was in a stragegically advanced position, soaked up most of the available fuel stocks. This both made them semi-mobile once more while also impacting heavily on the unit which had to give up their reserves.
This drain was particularly heavy on the 50th AD - the nearest allied unit to the Marines.

You could explain the Canadians and Danish being in the area by assigning them the duty of escorting the gathered fuel. They then took up covering positions while the Marines refueled and reorganised (the crawl westward would have sevrely disorganised them as some component units were able to move quicker than others).
There is no real need for all of the Canadian and Danish strength to be shifted though, the bulk could well remain where they were facing the Poles and Soviets.

Why didn't the Germans leapfrog the XI Corp? I'm guessing fuel once again (as well as increasing pressure on the British). With the Marines requiring something like several million litres, every unit needed to give up subtantial percentages of their reserve or risk the Marines being attack while immobile and destroyed. Note this was before the 5th even got close to Lodz.
I feel there is a strong chance that at this relatively early stage, the 5th and 8th were probably still in physical contact with the XI Corp and therefore would also have lost fuel reserves to the Marines. This may help expain why a division which had spent a year or more in preperation had needed to stoip and brew more fuel along the way.

Legbreaker

11-29-2009, 04:34 PM

Raellus

11-29-2009, 04:59 PM

Here's a thought, perhaps the naval assets which landed the Marines were also carrying the III German Armies fuel supply for the second phase of the offensive? With that on the bottom of the sea, it would have been suicide to continue an eastward movement.
The 5th and 8th were already well underway with specific objectives which we felt could still be reached, or communications were so bad (or disrupted by the enemy) they didn't get confirmation of the general halt of the advance?

An interesting idea but I just don't see 3rd Army putting all of its eggs (or fuel) in one basket like that. One unswept mine, one errant diesel boat, one airstrike, one shore-launched SSM, and all of that fuel goes up in flames. I definitely can see the 2nd MarDiv losing nearly all of its own fuel in this way, but the entire army's? The rest of the 3rd Army would need that fuel, at the very least, just to break through to the 2nd MarDiv. Otherwise, it could become stranded all alone (with way too much fuel) and reduced at the enemy forces' leisure. The 8th ID clearly has plenty of fuel as they somehow managed to drive all the way to Latvia, apparently before figuring out how far they'd just gone (this notion really bothers me).

I'm still thinking on your first post in this latest couplet. I think this is a really interesting discussion.

Legbreaker

11-29-2009, 05:43 PM

You're probably right about not putting it all in the one basket, however by mid 2000, maybe they didn't have a choice? Perhaps they had only one large fuel carrier left plus a few smaller vessels converted from other uses. The main ship went down even though it was protected by every available asset the combine Nato navies had and "poof", the whole operation was in serious jeopardy.

Pre, or even early war, such a risky gamble might not have been considered, but by the time of 2000, there's not a lot of choice left...

Targan

11-29-2009, 08:14 PM

I'm not as switched on as you guys when it comes to having all of the unit names and locations in my head but hear me out. What if the reasons behind the German 3rd Army's failure to push forward were psychological? Specifically, panic induced by the apparance of Soviet units at their front which their intel said just should not have been there. Actually, COULD NOT have been there (until it was realised that the Soviet units were running on diesel and had vastly increased mobility compared to NATO's units facing them).

Keep in mind that NATO's forces had not seen more than a trickle of diesel for a couple of years. It would have been a major blow to morale for the German brass to discover that not only are their troops suddenly facing many, many more Soviet tanks and other AFVs than they had expected (with unit designations that should be 1000km away) but also they could smell their diesel exhaust and see with their own eyes that their enemies' vehicles are zooming around at full power.

I think that NATO's commanders would have had certain expectations of their enemy (reinforced by the way things had been for the last couple of years) and a whole bunch of Soviet armour running on diesel just turning up out of no where would have shocked them (not to mention throwing a year of planning into disarray). Maybe the German 3rd Army's commanders were shocked and panicked into a defensive frame of mind (and ignored the Americans' commanders who were no doubt screaming for their German counterparts to continue with the offensive).

And now my second point. I believe it has been said previously in this thread that NATO forces in the north of Poland were facing a lot of cavalry (some Soviet, some Polish) and the strongest armour/MRD forces they were facing were Polish. In the south the Germans and the US 5th ID were facing a greater proportion of Soviet units. I suspect that the Soviets would have kept most or all of their diesel for their own units. The Poles would still have been running on alcohol (in just as limited supply as NATO forces). This means that while the US 8th ID and 2nd MarDiv might have been facing numerically strong opposition, both sides would have similar mobility constraints. Also the WarPac units in the north of the country would have tended to be roughly where NATO's intelligence suggested they would be. The NATO operations in the north would therefore be expected to go roughly as planned (or as it turned out better than planned in some ways).

In the south of Poland the situation would have been completely different. There were a higher proportion of Soviet units in the south and while initially only the Soviet units being rushed from the east would have been running on diesel, as the offensive wore on more and more of the local Soviet units would start to receive diesel supplies as well. That would have created a confused situation for NATO and WarPac units in the south. You've got unexpected Soviet units from the east suddenly appearing in southern Poland. You've got Soviet units already in southern Poland suddenly having many more options than before because they have reinforcements and diesel, thus allowing them to leave their cantonments for the first time in a couple of years. Local Polish units would be expected in many cases to take over those cantonments (they didn't have diesel or reinforcements and in many cases would have been very happy to see their Soviet counterparts move out).

Canon shows that following all that confusion and the destruction of the US 5th ID there was a great deal of Soviet movement. Some Soviet units stayed in western Poland, facing the German 3rd Army. Some were so badly mauled by NATO that they couldn't even return to their cantonments (which were probably now being garrisoned by Poles anyway) and went marauder. Some went into wholesale mutiny and decided to use their last remaining diesel reserves to strike out east towards home.

I am hoping that some of the above points will prove useful to the ongoing discussion (which I am finding to be very interesting thank you).

Raellus

11-29-2009, 09:07 PM

Thanks, Targan. You raise a very important consideration that I think the rest of us (or I, at least) have missed. I think your psychological impact explanation works pretty well. It would explain the relatively bloodless failure of the offensive and the mostly intact conditions of most of the NATO units of 3rd Army when they end up back in their cantonments.

I think we still need to explain why none of them were shifted south, though, since that's where the Soviets had done most of their damage. Perhaps the numerous small, but mobile Polish and Soviet cavalry units gave NATO military intel the impression that the WTO forces were way more powerful than they actually were, kind of like the finale in the film Three Amigos. (Yes, I've just connected a broad '80s comedy set in 1920s Mexico with Twilight 2000 :o) It was all the 3rd could do to turn around under pressure and return to its cantonments in northern Germany.

In fact, I will go one up on you and theorize that the cavalry units would actually have been even more mobile, in the long run, at least, than motorized units since cavalry wouldn't have to stop as often to brew more fuel (and they're not as reliant on roads).

Just to reassure you that I'm not super anal-retentive, the reason I'm being so detail oriented when it comes to the units involved in 3rd Army's offensive (and where they are when) is I'm working on a campaign setting revolving around the Baltic city of Elblag. I want to be able to convincingly explain why cut-off elements of American units (easy), German (not too hard), Canadian (getting tougher), and Danish units (the real challenge) are congregating there.

I think you may have gotten me most of the way there, Targan.

@Legbreaker: I still don't think 3rd army would detach most of its hard-earned fuel (almost 6 division's worth, not counting the U.S. 5th or 8th Mech IDs) and send it in a wide, amphibious flanking manouver with the hope of meeting up with it later. That's not just daring, it's plain rash. Plus, I think that most units would be used to hauling around most of its own fuel and the equipment to brew more. It would be routine by 2000. Canon implies this time and again. I will use your idea for the 2nd MarDiv's fuel quandry, though. One division losing almost all of its fuel in one fell swoop works for me. Thanks for that.

Legbreaker

11-30-2009, 12:14 AM

jester

11-30-2009, 01:14 AM

2nd Mar Div;

As much as I am one to agree they suck! And they do!

Naval vessel would be a means of providing so much fuel. The engines of the ship need to be moving, so now, turn the heat from the steam condenser to a heating tank for the mash which could hold tens of thousands of gallons which would result in eh, a thousand or two gallons a day. The issue would be to getting the mash to the tanks. So that wouldn't be an issue.

As for gaining the strength, eh, yeah growing in number as small units from whatever join us. But are they truly Marines? And the enemy, eh, would they be that comitted to it? Comittment verses the cost of taking on a Marine Divsion? Would they hold? Sure, would they stand until ordered off, or until the men they could gather could be withdrawn, yep! As for losing a section of their force, yep, they could, some could be cut off as well which would account for several elements of Marines roaming around, or even some making contact with the 5th Divsion or wandering up the Vistula in their AAMTRAKS!

As for withdrawing with a larger force, as I said, they could have picked up alot of troops who had managed to make it to their beachhead before pulling out, as well as a few PACT units who changed loyaltys when they did withdrawl. <Think of the Marines as they finished the fighting withdrawl from the Chosin, and Hungham> when they did up anchor and sail away.

So, those are things to consider.

simonmark6

11-30-2009, 01:49 PM

As Leg has said, most Danish units are in Denmark, so it'd be hard to have coherent units with vehicles/artillery in Elbag. It might be possible to have Danish troops there if you hand wave a little.

The Danish Navy is probably little more than a distant memory at this point, but it is possible that Danish Merchant ships, if any survive might be part of the 2nd Marine's supply train. Such ships might have Danish troops on board as security.

Now, if any of those ships were lost, grounded, wore out, the security and crew might form an infantry unit that ended up stranded in Elbag. There is a precedent in the Naval Divisions that the British sometimes fielded in the colonial wars. Hey Presto, Danes in Poland.

Legbreaker

11-30-2009, 05:24 PM

No matter what anyone may say, US marines are just ordinary men like any other, soldiers who have similar training as many other military arms of many other nations.

Why are US marines , especially only 2000 of them effectively cut off behind enemy lines and immobile, such a scary concept?

Although the sourcebooks place the Danes at home, the unit description shows that they took part in the III German Army spring offensive but not as part of XI Corp. Therefore, it is probable they spent their time in north eastern Germany/north west Poland before finding their way back home in the aftermath.

Raellus

11-30-2009, 05:54 PM

I was thinking that the first few weeks work of fuel wold be carried within the divisions but fuel for after then would be supplied by sea. With transportation of bulk good so difficult in 2000, there wouldn't be too many other options available for them.
Perhaps all the fuel was not lost, but instead it was the capacity to move it to where it would be needed? Every last available truck was required in the effort to get the marines mobile again, thereby effectively halting the rest of Nato until the job was done. This allows for millions of tonnes of fuel to be stockpiled in Germany, probably located around port facilities, but unable to be moved to the units that needed it until mid July.

That makes more sense.

Targan, your idea is good, however petroleum based fuels were only in evidence with Soviet units around Kalisz - only the 3rd shock army (?) was supplied with it while everyone else, Soviet and Pole, had to rely on alternate fuels. Even the Polish units involved in the destruction of the 5th were not trusted with deisel, etc.

But NATO would not necessarily know this for certain, even when they captured vehicles and troops that indicated otherwise. They would probably feel like all of their intel was suspect after several petrol burning Soviet divisions that were supposed to be back in Russia/Ukraine suddenly smashed the 5ht ID. And then, like I mentioned before, the numerous, highly mobile cavalry units in northern Poland could have led 3rd Army to believe that they were facing far more powerful forces than they were expecting. Combine this with the news that Soviet forces to the south were running on diesel and a sense of panic could very well set in.

With regard to the Danes in Elblag, I find that a bit hard to believe. The Nato Vehicle Guide (both editions) place all Danish units in their home country although some did take part in the offensive. It also appears according to the available canon info that only the XI Corp (which the Danes were not part of) took a truely offensive role. The Canadians however were part of the XI Corp.

In the NATO vehi guide, they are listed as being part of 3rd Army and described as having participating in the the summer offensive into northern Poland. As for which corps of 3rd Army did what, what is your source? I haven't come across this and I'd love to have a look at it.

The unit location in the NVG is POST offensive, as are all the other U.S./NATO and Soviet/WTO unit locations given in the rules and the various vehi-guides.

jester

11-30-2009, 10:39 PM

No matter what anyone may say, US Marines are just ordinary men like any other, soldiers who have similar training as many other military arms of many other nations.

Why are US Marines , especially only 2000 of them effectively cut off behind enemy lines and immobile, such a scary concept?

Although the sourcebooks place the Danes at home, the unit description shows that they took part in the III German Army spring offensive but not as part of XI Corp. Therefore, it is probable they spent their time in north eastern Germany/north west Poland before finding their way back home in the aftermath.

Because of their tenacity for starters. It is about the same as having a unit of paratroopers in your rear. They tend to be agressive and will continue to go on the offensive rather than hole up where they can be contained and made impotent. Think about it. Would you want 1000 or 2000 troops in your rear who will be conducting platoon sized raids, or even company and BN sized assaults?

And, the fear of their reputation will also pose a factor as well when dealing with locals, 2nd and 3rd line troops. Weather it is real or imagined the psychological factor is there and it will be exploited to its best effect.

The tradition of their offense and defense are well known as well which would give any foe reason to pause. Again if it is real or imagined the idea is in the enemy which is a factor.

Another factor is that an enemy commander would not want to leave such a force in their rear. So, they would most likely do what they could to eliminate these dangerous forces. As well as the propoganda value of defeating a large organization of US Marines which hasn't been done. I can see a strugle akin to a mini Stalingrade, where it is really a test of wills between the two forces as to who can defeat whom rather than a major statiegic objective.

Leg, seriously name three defeats of US Marines. <and M is capitalized as it is a proper name>

Legbreaker

11-30-2009, 11:39 PM

I feel the issues you're overlooking is that the 2nd Marine were in a unique situation - almost cut off from support and virtually immobile.

There were no airlifts of fuel, no supply ships (they were all on the bottom of the ocean, along with their hopes of continued operations) etc for them, and they were stuck in the lowland deltas and esturies of Poland with next to no fuel to use in their VERY heavy tanks, APCs, SP artillery, trucks, motorcycles, etc.

At best they were able to conduct foot patrols as light infantry against an enemy which, while numerically and argueably technically weaker, could run rings around them in their old T-55s, T-62s, horseborne cavalry, etc. Basically, what makes the marines strong was little more than a lodestone around their necks, and virtually eliminated any offensive capabilty they possessed until several weeks later when replacement fuel stocks reached them (and the overall situation in Europe was turning nasty). In my opinion, they would have been lucky to survive if they faced decent opposition.

In my assessment, I also had them strung out along the coastline between Gdansk and Elblag in units of approximately 4-500 men. With no way of regrouping, each unit could have been easily picked off by Pact forces. This deployment was because they were intended to take and hold the area and act as a sor tof carpet for the 8th as they advanced quickly through the region. The 2nd Marines were also to have supplied engineering support for the crossing of the numerous watercourses in the area.

StainlessSteelCynic

12-01-2009, 01:20 AM

...Leg, seriously name three defeats of US Marines

Hmm, this is dangerously close to territorial pissings.
The USMC have had just as many setbacks and failures as any other military force but the US generally tends to gloss over their failures, for example you can find textbooks that mention the failure of USMC to achieve their objectives at Belleau Woods but very few mention the fact that some of them broke and ran (I have read that the USMC are taught that they have never fled from a battle, something even the drill instructors teaching that myth know is a lie). Whether you want to call them failures to meet objectives, defeats, withdrawals or not is largely a matter of semantics but this article is worth reading http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O126-Defeat.html

Legbreaker

12-01-2009, 05:12 PM

Raellus

12-01-2009, 06:23 PM

I did a little digging last night and found that there had indeed been a general Pact offensive into Germany in the summer of 2000. There's next to no info on it though, just a single line in Going Home (I think, I'm at work) in the unit description for the HQ of the 22nd Soviet Army (I think that's the unit). Initially I had thought this to be relating only to the destruction of the 5th, but it's just not worded that way.

There are also references to a number of Nato units not connected to the III German army being involved in action around that time.

It also appears to be implied when looking at all the tidbits of info, that the Pact forces made some impressive gains in the south, which would explain the poor state of defences in that area on the western side of the lines.

I was under this impression too but I can't remember where I read this.

I also found that in January and February 2000, UK forces were shifted to the north of the country to consolidate. This may have contributed to the losses in the south.

:confused: That would have created an even more lopsided correlation of forces in both northern and southern Poland.

This offensive, along with the shift of UK forces northward may explain why there is such strength in the north and barely a thin screen of units in the south.

No UK forces are shown in the north on the map in the v2.2 rulebook. They're all down around Berlin. Now you've got me really confused.

Regarding Marines, lets make sure to keep any debate civil (or maybe start another thread).

Legbreaker, it's your fault I want Danes in my Baltic campaign setting!:p Way back in the day, you had a couple of Danish PCs in your RPoL PbP and I've always thought that was really cool.

Legbreaker

12-01-2009, 06:52 PM

My guess is that Nato wasn't expecting a Soviet offensive, or that they felt their own offensive would blunt any drive in the south. It's fairly obvious from the unit descriptions in the books, especially the Pact units, that they'd been well and truely put through the wringer in the last few months after sitting in cantonments for the prior year or two. Up until mid 2000, it looks like the war could still have been "won" by either side but the summer 2000 campaigns drained every last resource either side had left.

The way I see it, the vast majority of units were still in good order up until late summer (a few rogue units behind the lines the rare exception). PCs therefore would still be very used to operating within a structured military environment with an active and relatively capable higher command.

By 2000, almost any nationality can be found almost anywhere with just a little thought and creativity. However, I can't see units larger than individual Plattoons being "out of area" for their nations main units. Take B Coy of the 116th ACR for example. Numbering just a handful of members with maybe a dozen vehicles all told, they are specifically mentioned in several books as a unique situation.

Adm.Lee

01-17-2010, 11:20 PM

I've been thinking more about this, since we opened the question of post-OMEGA Poland. So, a little thread-necromancy here....

In Going Home, the Third German Army has practically abandoned the eastern frontier. What's up with that? There's only 1 division in contact (as I would consider it), the rest, including III Corps HQ, have pulled back to the west and north. The British pulled out from around Berlin, too.

For that matter, why is XI Corps pinned where it is? There are no Pact or even German units between them and Kiel.

I just re-read most of the above posts. I think Legbreaker is onto something with the "more mobile Polish cavalry." We've mostly all agreed that the appearance of the Fourth Guards Tank Army with diesel in its tanks was a shock. What if the wholesale mounting of those Polish & Soviet troops on horses was another shock? Or more specifically, the mobility those troopers obtained against the mechanized NATO forces? We have read that both Third German Army and 5th US Mechanized Division had a stop-and-go movement pattern for brewing, something they had probably become accustomed to since 1998 or '99. But formations that could ride circles around them on the days they were halted? Bands of riders that could appear to shoot up unarmored vehicle columns? That's scary.

So, what if we are looking at a command failure, or a series of the same? The commanding generals of III German and XI US Corps are blindsided by this new Pact mobility in their area, and Third German Army is surprised by both the Soviet offensive south of Berlin and the reports of the Guards with real fuel coming up through the Soviet rear.
Let's jack up the tension. Say there are just a few, a very few, sorties by Pact jets at this time. Another "impossible" feat. If the Soviets could put together diesel to get a tank army from Romania to Poland, why not a flight of MiGs, dropping down on an undefended HQ? Or a missile strike-- nuclear, biological or chemical? Then maybe one or more of the commanders that started the offensive isn't the one around at the end. Some work by Spetsnaz or even an unlucky brush with marauders could do the same.

For that matter, some here have questioned the plan that sent the 5th and 8th Mech divisions helter-skelter across Poland. Or even an offensive in Poland at all, given the conditions in the spring of 2000? Was CG Third Army in his right mind? Really? (If he isn't what does that say about his staff?) How might the command that issues the orders for the, let's say grandiose, offensive of 2000 react when it is evident that the enemy has more mobile forces than he does? If Army command gets confused and the Corps commanders are beleaguered by the Pact, I can see things melting away to what I outlined above. If the Army commander isn't nuts, maybe the XI Corps staff might stage a coup when they find out that two of their divisions just drove away (probably with most of the reserve fuel) on nebulous one-way missions. That would certainly set up some command paralysis.
The German III Corps pulls back in the absence of coherent orders from Army. By November, its divisions are mostly up in the far north of Germany. The US XI Corps is feeling very abandoned, both by its neighbor corps and by the Army HQ that stuck it out on a limb, with two of its divisions even further out. Maybe the command is feeling abandoned even by USAREUR, who attached them to the Germans in the first place, and then ordered everyone else home. Were there bad personal feelings among the commanders before the attack? I bet there are now.

So, like Webstral's profile of General Thomason, here's my attempt to get into the head of three other commanding generals (or more, if one or more of them were replaced in the campaign). I hope it's clear.

Targan

01-18-2010, 12:27 AM

Let's jack up the tension. Say there are just a few, a very few, sorties by Pact jets at this time. Another "impossible" feat. If the Soviets could put together diesel to get a tank army from Romania to Poland, why not a flight of MiGs, dropping down on an undefended HQ? Or a missile strike-- nuclear, biological or chemical? Then maybe one or more of the commanders that started the offensive isn't the one around at the end. Some work by Spetsnaz or even an unlucky brush with marauders could do the same.

In my campaign working out the Soviets situation in Poland in 2001 was made easy for me by DIA Colonel Richard Stark's go-ahead for Major Po and his group's mission which resulted in Soviet Reserve Front HQ in Lublin being backpack nuked. Obviously that wasn't in canon but it was a very believeable situation IMO.

There is an entry in the rumour tables in The Black Madonna module that one of the nuclear demolition charges laid by withdrawing NATO forces in Czestochowa in mid-July 1997 did not detonate, and it may have been recovered by others:
"When NATO was occupying Czestochowa, they placed a pair of nuclear mines, but one of them didn't go off. It's probably still there, and worth a fortune in Krakow."
In my campaign such a device (a 10kt nuclear demolitions charge as described in The Black Madonna) ended up in the treasure cache collected under the Jasna Gora by Major Florian Filipowicz. I did some online research way back when and found some unclassified information about such devices used by US forces and even have a photo of the exterior casing of one.

One of Major Po's men at the time that they killed Filipowicz underneath the Jasna Gora was a US Army engineer trained to use nuclear demolition charges. Col Stark was more than happy to provide DIA assistance to Po to make the nuke useable again and to send Po on his way to destroy Lublin. In my campaign once Soviet Reserve Front HQ was nuked nearly all Soviet command coherance in Poland soon collapsed. That probably would have happened eventually anyway but the nuking sped the process up. That (naturally enough) took alot of pressure off German forces in eastern Germany and allowed Operation Omega to go ahead more smoothly than it would have done in canon.

Abbott Shaull

01-18-2010, 04:57 PM

As I recall very few units of NATO OOB had converted to horse cavalry. I do believe that beside a few units such as Divisional Cavalry at Division level and odd Brigade/Armor Cavalry Regiment had been converted to operate as Horse Cavalry. I do remember that within the US 5th Mechanized Division that their Divisional Cavalry had been operating as horse cavalry for scouting purpose because there was limited understanding that being such during the current condition, were more mobile than if they had retain vehicles.

On the hand looking through several OOB, seems the Soviets and many of their Pact allies had stripped from several units from various levels from Army on down of equipment that was used to bring other units up on equipment. Then the remains of these units were made into horse cavalry when they received their replacement and horses.

One has to remember that even in WWII both Germany and the Soviets had Cavalry Divisions and the Soviet had used larger Cavalry formation against the Germans at time when many wouldn't of thought twice of using such formation due to their experiences on the Western Front during WWI which was the last time the US, UK and France had for all purposes fielded a Cavalry force. Even the way Polish Cavalry was decimated by the Germans in 1939 justified these opinions. Even the Germans weren't too convince of the worth of having horse cavalry unit.

Then forward scenes on the Eastern Front where German and their allies Panzer, Motorized/Panzergrenadier Divisions and Corps were stuck in the mud more or less during spring thaw and the Soviet unleashed their various Cavalry Corps upon the unsuspecting Germans. Same with winter when units had German Panzer/Panzergrenadier had grounded to halt since they were barely receiving enough fuel to keep their motors going. They didn't stop the engines much for fear of not being able to restart them due oil and fuel freezing. For the officers who were fighting on the Eastern Front seeing or hearing there was Soviet Cavalry operating nearby was enough to cause a panic during these times of year.

Now you are a German Division Command X, German Corps Commander Y, and German Army Command Z. The Offensive of 2000 starts know all to well there are various units of the Pact forces that have been converted to Cavalry. Due to their position you don't know what they are really capable of, but you remember what your father, uncles, maybe grandfather and such had told you about large Soviet Cavalry formation in WWII. Since the start of the war you haven't encounter and like many in NATO you downplay their usefulness. Many of the Polish Cavalry units you happen to know about aren't much larger than those formation on NATO side.

You along with NATO Supreme Command Q believe that you can sustain an Offensive and gain most of the outline objectives. This is with the beforehand knowledge that your offensive will go in spurts as Divisions would have to stop to brew fuel. You are hoping at best once a Division has to stop, the one right behind would be ready to leapfrog ahead. At worse case you have this happening at Brigade level which was happening with the 5th Mechanized Division and I suppose it probably what happen at with the 8th Mechanized. The unit that is stop is brewing fuel for it next jump forward, knowing that some may have to be given to the unit moving through their area as a helping hand to keep some forward movement. As this happening you have limited horse cavalry that are protecting your flanks and scouting ahead when you are forced to standstill, and when moving they protect the rear.

One of the things that comes as a shock is the Polish Cavalry seem to be more mobile and are attacking rear areas of the XI Corps and raiding the communication line of the units of the III German Corps. Suddenly units of the US XI Corps identify not one Soviet Army that was in the Soviet Union days before but two complete Armies. One the Soviet Fourth Guards Tank Army seems to have hit the 5th US Mechanized Division head-on blindly. While the other has been identified 22nd Soviet Cavalry Army, combined with reports that other Soviet had been report moving from Souther Poland and fearing being caught in pincer movement, the commanders decide to fall back to their start positions, remembering all too well what they use to hear about the Soviet Cavalry Corps and the destruction they would cause on German units in WWII.....

kato13

01-18-2010, 05:13 PM

As I recall very few units of NATO OOB had converted to horse cavalry.

One nice thing about having all the units databased

Cavalry units listed below.
Central Defense Group * Canada
Eastern Defense Group * Canada
Northwestern Defense Group * Canada
Southwestern Defense Group * Canada
Al Amarah Brigade * Iraq (French Allied)
Group Ar Ramadi * Iraq (US Allied)
Group Kirkuk * Iraq (US Allied)
104th Recon Battalion * Netherlands
102nd Recon Battalion * Netherlands
3rd Cavalry Division * Poland
17th Cavalry Division * Poland
12th Cavalry Division * Poland
19th Cavalry Division * Poland
2nd Cavalry Division (ex-2nd 'Warsaw' MRD) * Poland
13th Cavalry Division * Poland
1st Marine Commando Brigade *Turkey
The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom
The Queens' Royal Irish Hussars * United Kingdom
6th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom
132nd Cavalry Division * USSR
152nd Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
43rd Cavalry Division * USSR
96th Cavalry Division * USSR
14th Tank Division (Cavalry) * USSR
89th Cavalry Division * USSR
127th Cavalry Division * USSR
9th Motorized Rifle Division (Cavalry) * USSR
20th Guards Cavalry Division * USSR
94th Cavalry Division * USSR

Legbreaker

01-18-2010, 05:31 PM

It seems then that the Commonwealth nations (Canada and the UK) held most of the horse cavalry strength of Nato while the US and Germany stayed high tech as much as they could.

Raellus

01-18-2010, 09:25 PM

For that matter, why is XI Corps pinned where it is? There are no Pact or even German units between them and Kiel.

Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. It's pretty obvious on the map that I'm working on. There are no PACT units between XI Corps and the German border yet Going Home states that they can't move for some reason and that USAER has given up on them.

Perhaps, as you mentioned, the Soviets nuked a road hub to the west of XI Corps when the Soviet formations broke off their attack (the late summer PACT offensive mentioned in Going Home) or used chem/bio weapons to deny XI corps passage west. If, at the same time, XI fuel stores were spent and/or destroyed (maybe that airstrike or Spetznaz raid you mentioned), they could have been stranded there.

The proximity between XI Corps' cantonments and Pila, seat of the Polish Free Congress, suggests cooperation between the two.

Perhaps the XI Corps commander decided to stay put for some other reason. Perhaps he is ideologically opposed to pulling out of Europe. Perhaps he is of Polish ancestry or has a particularly well developed sense of honor. Perhaps it is a combination of several of the factors listed above.

It's an interesting situation and makes for an intriguing campaign setting c. the winter of 2000-2001.

pmulcahy11b

01-18-2010, 09:41 PM

I agree. It sounds more like XI Corps is not pinned -- they just don't want to leave. Maybe they have a stake in the area's future. Maybe they just told their superiors that they were pinned.

Abbott Shaull

01-18-2010, 10:04 PM

No if the UK units that were convert I believe would of been the recon role with in their parent unit. Much like the 4-12th Cavalry had been converted to horse cavalry for it mission within the 5th US Mechanized Division.

I think NATO realized the limitations of modern warfare with the lack of fuel. What they failed to realize is similar to what happen to the UK and France with how Armor fit into the new style of warfare.

It kinda like the American Civil War. During most of the war, the cavalry units of the Union Army was used for recon and guarding flanks and trains. They be used to form a skirmish line if need be. The Union Army did use their cavalry force as shock troops until late in the war. When it they had started to use them as such, they were busy as both shock troop and giving the Confederate Cavalry fits. Even though the US Cavalry still had mounted troops into WWII, many of these troop were on border protection along the US-Mexican Border. Which is ironic that the US Border Patrol in some location along the same border still mount patrols on horse back.

Even Iraqi were organized due to the fact they operate in marshy areas of Iraq.

The Canadian ones I am sure it was the same reason why the 1st Cavalry Division up until the start of WWII was still on horse back. There was large expanse of area to patrol. Horse Cavalry is more economically way to patrol the large areas.

Turkey Commando converted probably due to the fact that many of the areas is mountainous. Much like US Special Forces teams using horse during times in Afghanistan. It is means for them to be mobile and not let technology get them in trouble.

Last time the British had used large Cavalry formation was during WWI when the appalling losses dismounted the units and had them fight as Foot Infantry. As for the Germans, their Cavalry was used more in rear area security than front line troops. German has been one of those countries that embraced Panzer/Armor warfare over the old horse Cavalry and really never looked back. I am sure that the Germans would have their eyes open and would look into either raising some new Cavalry units or converting units they already and consolidating more AFVs, IFVs, and APCs to other units.

Ironically it was trench warfare and machine gun emplacement with in the trench network that killed horse cavalry in many military organization eyes. With the invention tanks, armor cars, ifv, apc, cfv, fast moving light trucks (ie jeep), motorcycles, along with helicopter have been used in many place instead of cavalry. Many of these vehicle were created to help fill one role or another that cavalry formation use to take in the military.

At the same time there are still parts of the world where horse cavalry has survived. Of course they aren't the all important shock troops that they once were before, but are effective in raiding and acting the eye and ears of the organization they work for.

What is more telling is the number of Polish and Soviet units have been converted to Cavalry. The Soviets went so far to convert one army to horse cavalry. Even the Cavalry forces of both had operated in WWII, the Polish ones were slaughter against the German Panzer. While the Soviet used their Corps size units during times when the Panzer/Panzergrenadier/Motorized units had been mired in mud or during major operation in conjecture with Tank and Mechanized Corps to exploits break-outs.

There were even some Czech units that had been converted to horse cavalry. I think in one of the module I read where Hungarian units was found somewhere in the modules in and around Poland, and they were I believe mounted. Greece and Yugoslavia regions area would be another location where some more use.

Thank you Kato for responding. I am sure there was ARC or two who had converted into Horse Cavalry but I can't find my copy of the US Army Vehicle Guide. For that fact the Soviet one is missing too..:(

Adm.Lee

01-18-2010, 10:17 PM

I agree. It sounds more like XI Corps is not pinned -- they just don't want to leave. Maybe they have a stake in the area's future. Maybe they just told their superiors that they were pinned.

Yep, that's what I am thinking. There isn't anyone out there, but III German Corps was "driven off" by the suddenly-mobile Polish and Soviet cavalry, there could be a hot crater in there, and the Fourth Guards Tank Army is out there somewhere, while the 5th & 8th Mech Divisions took off with the fuel reserve. Stettin is apparently a ghost town, so they may not want to go through there.

I like the Polish-ancestry angle, but even more I like the psychological breakdown possibility. At Origins War College a year or two ago, someone talked briefly on the phenomenon of commanders breaking down when they saw whole units wiped out. It happened very very rarely to the US in WW2 and Korea, but a lot more on the Eastern Front or to the Germans. The commenter thought that NATO armies hadn't done much to address that kind of psychological stress. I think that may be something to look at in the III German and XI US Corps commanders-- maybe that's why the Germans retreated northwest and the Americans sat down.

As for the Polish Free Congress getting more Polish forces to switch over, the now-permanent presence of the Americans should certainly have been a factor. Even more so if there is a senior American in the Corps who is of Polish ancestry, willing to settle down and make something in his(her) homeland.

kato13

01-18-2010, 10:33 PM

Thank you Kato for responding. I am sure there was ARC or two who had converted into Horse Cavalry but I can't find my copy of the US Army Vehicle Guide. For that fact the Soviet one is missing too..:(

No problem.

I think my prerequisite was either manpower was all cavalry or it had the words "converted to cavalry" in the description. If you find any other units that did a 100% conversion let me know I will change their symbol in my database.

Here are all the units which have any "cavalry" listed under manpower

2/Royal Canadian Regiment * Canada
2/Ontario Regiment * Canada
Central Defense Group * Canada
2/Rocky Mountain Rangers * Canada
1/King's Own Calgary Regiment * Canada
1/Royal Winnipeg Rifles * Canada
Eastern Defense Group * Canada
Northwestern Defense Group * Canada
3/Toronto Regiment * Canada
1/Loyal Edmonton Regiment * Canada
1/Toronto Scottish Regiment * Canada
Southwestern Defense Group * Canada
Al Amarah Brigade * Iraq (French Allied)
Group Kirkuk * Iraq (US Allied)
Group Ar Ramadi * Iraq (US Allied)
104th Recon Battalion * Netherlands
102nd Recon Battalion * Netherlands
3rd Cavalry Division * Poland
17th Cavalry Division * Poland
12th Cavalry Division * Poland
19th Cavalry Division * Poland
2nd Cavalry Division (ex-2nd 'Warsaw' MRD)* Poland
13th Cavalry Division * Poland
The Queens' Royal Irish Hussars * United Kingdom
1/The Royal Hampshire Regiment * United Kingdom
6th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom
The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom
132nd Cavalry Division * USSR
117th Guards Tank Division * USSR
135th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
40th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
43rd Cavalry Division * USSR
96th Cavalry Division * USSR
157th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
51st Tank Division * USSR
154th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
89th Cavalry Division * USSR
127th Cavalry Division * USSR
14th Tank Division (Cavalry) * USSR
9th Motorized Rifle Division (Cavalry) * USSR
24th Guards Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
20th Guards Cavalry Division * USSR
94th Cavalry Division * USSR
1st Panzergrenadier Division * West Germany

Legbreaker

01-18-2010, 11:28 PM

I agree. It sounds more like XI Corps is not pinned -- they just don't want to leave. Maybe they have a stake in the area's future. Maybe they just told their superiors that they were pinned.
See the second half of http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php?p=16391&postcount=8 for a possible explanation.
Lack of fuel after the earlier offensive coupled with the expenditure of ammunition, probable casualties, etc all likely combine with the blown bridges across the Oder and limited bridging/ferrying capabilities of the XI Corps.
Basically it's not the enemy that's the main problem, but their own supply issues and success at destroying bridges, etc earlier in the war.

pmulcahy11b

01-18-2010, 11:55 PM

See the second half of http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php?p=16391&postcount=8 for a possible explanation.
Lack of fuel after the earlier offensive coupled with the expenditure of ammunition, probable casualties, etc all likely combine with the blown bridges across the Oder and limited bridging/ferrying capabilities of the XI Corps.
Basically it's not the enemy that's the main problem, but their own supply issues and success at destroying bridges, etc earlier in the war.

Well, that would REALLY suck -- trap yourselves in your own kill box...

Legbreaker

01-19-2010, 04:31 AM

The plan obviously wasn't supposed to work out that way - the rest of the German III Army was supposed to follow on behind the US XI Corps and basically fill in the gap between them and the Oder. The Pact counterattack effectively drove a wedge between them, forcing the Germans to remain west of the river but also resulted in significant damage and disruption to the Soviets involved.

It is likely however that at least some Germans reached the 2nd MARDIV - how else can we explain how the marines ended up with a Leopard III in their ranks? My guess is the tank was part of a relief/resupply force and was cut off with the XI Corps - the tank is probably still crewed by Germans who have been absorbed into the division.

I suspect that the nearest intact bridge to the mouth of the Oder was in the area of Berlin, a good 100-150 km inland. This distance is almost insurmountable, especially if my proposal that the 2nd MARDIV lost the vast bulk of it's fuel reserves at sea is accepted. Corps HQ, 50th AD, 116th ACR and the Canadians would be forced to give up a large proportion of their reserves to allow the marines to extricate themselves from the Wistla delta and rejoin the Corps. I would suggest that this loss occured after the 8th ID had passed through and could have been either an accident, or activity of some type by the enemy (could have been a spetnaz raid with limpit mines, rare airstrike, missile attack, or possibly torpedo boat).

Give the XI Corps a few months to distill fuel and they might have a chance - if they've got enough ammo left after the offensive/counteroffensive.

The only port available to the XI Corps is Kołobrzeg. No vessel longer than 85m and a draft of just 4.7m can safely enter - this basically rules out anything larger than a large tug or fishing boat, and completely rules out anything capable of carrying a decent cargo (including armoured vehicles). Therefore evacuation by sea is at best impractical and at worse likely to result in the loss of a few ships. http://www.maritime.com.pl/port/indexp-en.php?p=KOLOBRZEG#

It is also likely that at least one side has bombed the town and port facilities, and highly likely mined the approaches further rendering any large scale movement of stores, etc even more difficult.

Adm.Lee

01-19-2010, 02:04 PM

Legbreaker

01-19-2010, 04:58 PM

It is likely that almost every bridge across the Oder has been dropped at some point during the war. Any existing bridges are likely to be relatively low capacity structures thrown up by engineers and destroyed half a dozen more times by enemy action. It wouldn't take much for the XI Corps to be cut off in this manner.

As far as we know from canon sources, only the John Hancock and Tarawa are in the area. Both have drafts of over 8 metres making them totally unable to enter the port, or even get close in all probability. Naturally there are numerous civilian vessels that make up TF 34 which may have been available, but again, the port of Kołobrzeg restricts vessels to only the smallest.

It is possible the Tarawa was the ship sunk in my assessement of the offensive, taking the bulk of the marines fuel reserves with it. This particular ship in my mind at least would make for a more suitable flagship than the John Hancock and as it's not mentioned as part of TF 34....

Regardless, any vessels which could be used to evacuate the XI Corps are either too small to be all that useful (restricted to maybe carrying 1 heavy vehicle and/or perhaps 50 men), or would require small craft to ferry men, equipment, stores, etc out to them. All this requires fuel which may not be available if there's to be enough left for the evacuation to continental US.

It would also require the XI to be withdrawn peicemeal, seriously degrading their ability to fend off the Poles. I certainly wouldn't want to be in the rearguard and amongst the last few hundred pulled out!

kato13

01-19-2010, 05:07 PM

(I have some random name generator tables around here, I'm going to assign something to these generals.)

Here is a US name generator based on US census data.

http://games.juhlin.com/tools/names.html

Still very much a work in progress. Just reload to get new names.

pmulcahy11b

01-19-2010, 05:14 PM

Here is a US name generator based on US census data.

http://games.juhlin.com/tools/names.html

Still very much a work in progress. Just reload to get new names.

Now really impress us and come up with a Yanamomo matrix...:D

Raellus

01-19-2010, 05:16 PM

Ooo, I hadn't thought about bridges being dropped! I think cavalry action or that last airstrike might be great for this. Or worse, when the cavalry drove off III German Corps, the Germans blew bridges over the Oder behind them, which pissed off CG XI Corps. (I have some random name generator tables around here, I'm going to assign something to these generals.)

This is starting to make a lot of sense.

I like the idea of the 2nd MarDiv's fuel going up in flames at sea and the rest of XI Corps (sans the 5th and 8th IDs) being forced to give up most of its fuel to get the Marines back to NW Poland.

I also like the idea of a row between the German 3rd Army commander/staff and the U.S. XI Corps commander/staff. It could help explain (in part) why XI Corps decided to stay put in Poland.

I'm still not convinced that Polish and Soviet cavalry could have chased off a couple of German Panzergrenadier divisions (IIRC, one Panzer and two PZGR division, plus the Danish Jutland division). I'm not even convinced that most of the Soviet and Polish units designated as cavalry formations even had horses. Going Home actually clearly identifies the number of cavalry in a given unit and most "Cavalry" divisions listed therein have no cavalry strengths listed. (i.e. it differentiates between infantry and cavalry within a given unit). This seems to make sense. There seems to have been consensus on the old forum that the Europe of '96-2000 didn't have an adequate horse population to properly mount all of those cavalry units.

Legbreaker

01-19-2010, 06:36 PM

Abbott Shaull

01-19-2010, 08:45 PM

I'm still not convinced that Polish and Soviet cavalry could have chased off a couple of German Panzergrenadier divisions (IIRC, one Panzer and two PZGR division, plus the Danish Jutland division). I'm not even convinced that most of the Soviet and Polish units designated as cavalry formations even had horses. Going Home actually clearly identifies the number of cavalry in a given unit and most "Cavalry" divisions listed therein have no cavalry strengths listed. (i.e. it differentiates between infantry and cavalry within a given unit). This seems to make sense. There seems to have been consensus on the old forum that the Europe of '96-2000 didn't have an adequate horse population to properly mount all of those cavalry units.

Yes I remember this debate quite well, and I would tend to agree that with everything considered there wouldn't be enough horses to go around properly mount all of the troops.

As for the Cavalry Division that they list, remember these units had been previously MRDs and TDs that had been transformed over to Cavalry as their heavy equipment was stripped to re-equipped other units. At the same time there were personnel that they lost. So the Cavalry Divisions are basic new fresh units with few veterans. Remember the 10th Soviet Guard Tank Division received 3000 new troop during the spring of 2000 from Central Asia.

Then try to figure out when these the Soviet Union had transformed the Divisions of the 22nd Cavalry Army to Cavalry and were there areas of Russia where large horse population exist. Then could they move them to the staging areas of the 22nd Cavalry Army. This seems to be the largest formation to converted to Cavalry.

Some of the Soviet Division that were Austria, Germany, and Poland have been partial converted to Cavalry. Ironic the 96th Cavalry Division which was part of the 22nd Cavalry Army still has Infantry listed, leading me to believe that there was still a limited amount motor transportation by some means to help move the Infantry as needed. Then again the 22nd Cavalry Army HQ and 96th Cavalry Division were quartered together so maybe the infantry come Army level units that was absorbed into the Division after things had settle down.

Abbott Shaull

01-19-2010, 09:05 PM

I agree that cavalry alone is very unlikely to have a great effect on mechanised formations while they're mobile (or even dug in for that matter). However, examining unit movements from 01JUL00 to OCT/NOV00 shows us that Soviet units on the north end of the line have moved south and east further than any other Pact unit anywhere in Poland.

It is my assertion that this is the aftereffects of a very hard and violent push downstream along the Oder, cutting the III German Army into two sections (the Germans to the west and US to the east). Worn out from the fighting, the commander of that Pact army (can't recall what the units are at the moment) withdrew his forces to rebuild their strength although strong patrols have been maintained to prevent the bridges being rebuilt.

How sucessful the Pact recovery is remains to be seen, although there are sure to be losses from desertion over winter.

I do not believe a simple disagreement between XI Corp HQ and III German Army HQ would be anywhere near sufficent to have the US units remain in Poland. I know people can be stubborn sometimes, but to risk thousands of soldiers lives just on principle?

What is believable if you want to include a rift between the commands, is that the Germans simply didn't back up the US units as much as they could have. Once pressure was applied by the Pact in another area of the front (say southern Germany), the danger to their homeland became more important than pushing on into Poland, at least in the minds of a handful of officers in vital positions.

It may also have been expected that the ports at either Gdynia or Gdansk would have been captured as part of the offensive and their larger vessel capabilities put to use. There are no ports between Gdynia and the German border capable of much more than good sized fishing boats. Without dedicated landing craft, many of which are likely to have been previously destroyed or lost as late as the 2nd MarDiv's landing to the east, only a handful of amphibious vehicles such as AAVP-7A1's could have been taken - the M1's of 50th AD, Leopards of the Canadians, M8's of the 116th ACR, etc would all be lost, or worse, fall into enemy hands.

No I don't think there is rift between the various Corps commands and the Third German Army. I can see the German blowing up the bridges on their way back across the river, especially if the XI Corps is no where in sight in getting ready to secure the crossing for their returns back into Germany. With everything going on to the south, it could be there isn't/wasn't the resource to replace the vital links in late summer to allow the XI Corps move back across into Germany.

Also for the part after their initial break out, they are in contact with very week Polish units and Soviet Cavalry that are exhausted by the time they get to the battle field. We don't know if Germans had spent long enough in Poland where they had to stop to brew some fuel at which point they were immobilized and then sudden realizing the cavalry units still operating in their area were still mobile. Remember this is first operation in a couple years of this size and there was a steep learning curve to pass.

Now granted if US military had wanted too, they could of pulled the XI Corps including the 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group back, but it would mean leaving large amount of equipment and stock for someone to come along and pick up. The people who came along to pick up the equipment and stock would more than likely turn the equipment against NATO and NATO friendly Polish units. I think the XI Corps Command staff agreed it was more important for them to stay in place than allowing people to return home.

Next thing is the XI Corps is the only units in the near future that is able to present a real threat to several Pact force with very little effort of the Corps in the future. It set up to launch raids along the Soviet lines of communications that are in Germany. Especially when you consider some Soviet and Polish units are fighting over control of territory in the aftermath of destroying the 5th Mechanized Division. While other Polish units are unhappy that they have new neighbors that are taxing the local resource that barely supported the local populace and them. The 10th Polish Tank Division and the 21st Soviet Motorized Rifle Division are units in particular that are openly fighting over control of cantonments areas, even though they are both under the same command.

Another thing with Going Home many of the Front and Army HQs on both sides had cease to exist due to a variety of reasons. NATO the Fourth US Army and First German Army are now merged resources. With the Armies of Germany and Czech more or less taking over local government functions as well. There are several US, Czech, Polish, German, and Soviet unit operating independently of higher HQs by this time too.

The Various Fronts

1st Southwest Front no longer functioning as a Command HQ, and was absorbed by the 1st Czech Tank Army which itself was operating more of government administration unit than a military unit willing to go on the offensive.
1st Czech Tank and 4th Czech Army were both operating as government functions.
21st Soviet Army was still functioning, with units remaining loyal in Austria.

2nd Southwest Front no longer functioning.
8th Soviet Guard Tank Army, functioning but unwilling to take offensive actions.
16th Soviet Army, in communication with only the 106th Soviet MRD and unwilling to take offensive action.
V Italian Corps, pulling back into Italy and not willing to take offensive action.
41st Soviet Army, functioning, but unwilling to take offensive action.

Baltic Front
1st Polish Army, No longer accepting orders and many of it units have merge with local militias.
2nd Polish Army, Ceased to exist as a coherent unit. Some units are still loyal, but not willing to take offensive action.
1st Polish Tank Army, Cease to exist and merged with 5th Polish Tank Division and they have declared for the Polish Congress.
22nd Cavalry Army still operating and only in contact with the 96th Cavalry Division, but unable of offensive action after action in Germany

Reserve Front. Still in Lublin and occasional communication with component units. Effectively only in control of Lublin. Seat of Soviet Military government of Poland.
4th Guard Tank Army, ceased to exist as a unit and merged with the 20th Tank Division in Lodz.
3rd Shock Army, Ceased to exist as a coherent unit, remaining units intend to return to various parts of the Soviet Union come spring.

1st Western Front: Only in contact with the 9th Soviet Guard Tank Division which is loyal but unable to take offensive action due to lack of fuel and spare parts.
1st Soviet Guards Tank Army, Cease to exist as a unit. None of it units are accepting orders.
8th Soviet Guard Tank Army, Ceased to exist as a coherent unit. One Division intends to return to the Soviet Union, another has become part of local Militia and another is still loyal but like the 9th Soviet Guard Tank Division it unable to do much due to lack of fuel and spare parts.

2nd Western Front: No longer a exist as a coherent unit.
2nd Soviet Guard Army: Still operating but in contact with two of their division, the other divisions of the Army no longer accepting orders.
20th Soviet Guard Army: No longer a coherent unit. One division has defected to NATO, another no longer accepting orders, and the last has a small amount of gasoline for vehicle but running on alcohol to preserve it, still loyal but reluctant to take offensive action (just not hiding behind the lack of spare parts and fuel 'card' that other units have been)/

Legbreaker

01-19-2010, 09:50 PM

Ironic the 96th Cavalry Division which was part of the 22nd Cavalry Army still has Infantry listed, leading me to believe that there was still a limited amount motor transportation by some means to help move the Infantry as needed.
It could be that the infantry component was foot mobile, or carried in wagons. Heavy equipment such as artillery, and stores could be transported by ox carts - slow, but as they're not expected to scoot quickly around a battlefield, probably sufficient.

It's possible that the Germans also had to give up a large amount of the fuel reserve to the Marines to get them out of the delta. This too may have contributed to the abbrievated offensive - no fuel means no point (or ability) to continue forward. I lean towards this scenario as it explains why a German Leopard III is part of the US 2nd MARDIV in October 2000 (it was security for one of the fuel resupply collumns).

Even with the resupply, I see XI Corps as being extremely short on fuel. This lack of fuel results in them being forced into generally static positions and allows the Polish Cavalry to run rings around them. The Ples might not be strong enough to inflict a decisive defeat over the XI Corps, but they're certainly able to contain them.

Abbott Shaull

01-20-2010, 07:05 AM

It could be that the infantry component was foot mobile, or carried in wagons. Heavy equipment such as artillery, and stores could be transported by ox carts - slow, but as they're not expected to scoot quickly around a battlefield, probably sufficient.

True they could transported by wagon or even foot mobile if they were ox to move equipment and supplies could keep up for protection of the Divisional Trains.

It's possible that the Germans also had to give up a large amount of the fuel reserve to the Marines to get them out of the delta. This too may have contributed to the abbrievated offensive - no fuel means no point (or ability) to continue forward. I lean towards this scenario as it explains why a German Leopard III is part of the US 2nd MARDIV in October 2000 (it was security for one of the fuel resupply collumns).

Yes if it would explain it somewhat. Also couple other twist is the German Leopard III represents an advance guard moving forward, in order to scout ahead so the III German Corps could leap frog the XI US Corps and/or the fuel assets that were brought forward were underestimated and at this point the 8th Mechanized and 2nd Marine divided up with the 8th taking what it needed for it next couple leg of their journey and the 2nd Marine was bringing back what was needed to keep the XI US Corps mobile.

Even with the resupply, I see XI Corps as being extremely short on fuel. This lack of fuel results in them being forced into generally static positions and allows the Polish Cavalry to run rings around them. The Ples might not be strong enough to inflict a decisive defeat over the XI Corps, but they're certainly able to contain them.

I think you hit the nail directly on the head the first time here. Both sides had seen that their limitation on fuel allowed the Cavalry to keep them pin. The Soviets/NATO Divisional Commanders on up, all along the line in Germany after hearing how effective the that Cavalry units had been during the operation and realizing the 5th Mechanized was only destroyed where it was due lack of fuel during the summer. Then if you accept that the NATO had shipped supplies via sea including fuel intended to keep the Third German Army components moving, and when it was destroyed things feel apart. I would believe that many of the loyal Soviet units unwilling to take on action would be due to believing they had fuel to do what higher HQ wanted them to do and still be mobile once they got there.

Like stated there was extreme learning curve during this operation. Probably the first NATO Army/Pact Front size operation in Europe since 1998, more than likely since then end of 1997. I see most operation in 1998 after the last of the major fuel stockpile for NATO being conducted at Corps and Divisional level to get their units in better defended positions but nothing larger since it is realize they don't have resources to do so. On the Soviet side their lack of an effective supply chain is showing. Spare parts don't exist and fuel comes in trickle if at all, while they are able to get new conscripts they then need to take time to train them, and then secure food to feed these new troops too. Desertion would raise sharply in the Soviet units due to lack of supplies, so they units start to revert back to what they had done before the war to survive. Raise crops in their area where they at.

Adm.Lee

01-20-2010, 11:40 AM

It is my assertion that this is the aftereffects of a very hard and violent push downstream along the Oder, cutting the Third German Army into two sections (the Germans to the west and US to the east). Worn out from the fighting, the commander of that Pact army (can't recall what the units are at the moment) withdrew his forces to rebuild their strength although strong patrols have been maintained to prevent the bridges being rebuilt.
...
I do not believe a simple disagreement between XI Corp HQ and Third German Army HQ would be anywhere near sufficient to have the US units remain in Poland. I know people can be stubborn sometimes, but to risk thousands of soldiers lives just on principle?

I agree with your first paragraph. The second: The CG of XI Corps is looking at an unknown number of Pact horsemen raiding his line of communications, the German III Corps breaking contact with him, blowing the bridges and pulling way back, two of his divisions have been sent far away and out of contact, and his support from the sea has apparently evaporated. Which is more risky: sitting down here while he still has some ammo and AFVs, or trying to march out of this trap?

Re: USS Tarawa-- As far as I'm concerned, she could still take part in OMEGA, but perhaps without any landing craft. As has been said, there aren't ports to receive large ships in the XI Corps zone, so any reinforcement, resupply or evacuation would require landing craft. Which could have been the real casualty of the summer storm that has been touched on here before.

Adm.Lee

01-20-2010, 03:48 PM

Here is a US name generator based on US census data.

http://games.juhlin.com/tools/names.html

Still very much a work in progress. Just reload to get new names.

Well, the 2nd name there is Kevin Wojcik, so there's our Polish-ancestry name. Since it was the 2nd one up, I guess that he's the Corps HQ's chief of staff. First name was James Sweitzer as the CG, they are probably both Major Generals.

For the heck of it, Ronald Ortega commands the 50th Armored Division, Mark Trowbridge the 2nd Marine Division, and Sarah Wilson the ACR.
Jean-Marc Mondenard is the name my (paper) French name-generator came up with, so he's the brigadier of the 4th Canadian brigade. (I assume someone from the 22e Regiment is most likely to succeed to command there.)

Markus Kienholtz commanded Third German Army, and Ludiwg Kalb the III German Corps.

There, now we could use names, rather than typing titles over and over again. :)

Raellus

01-20-2010, 07:49 PM

I posted this in the Poland After Omega thread but I thought I'd mention it here as well since it seems germaine.

Regarding U.S. XI Corps: why do you think SACEUR gave up hope of recovering them during OMEGA? I understand that they may have had good reasons to stay put but those divisions represent significant combat power. Blown bridges are obstacles, but not insurmountable ones, especially if one is willing to abandon heavy equipment.

Could the XI Corps have expressed CivGov sympathies? Could the "abandonment" of XI Corps have been a political move?

The presence of the Polish Free Congress in nearby Pila could be a clue. MilGov was essentially abandoning the PFC to its own devices. What if CivGov made them an offer of assistance? Perhaps CivGov had plans to keep a military presence in Europe. XI Corps plus the Polish forces loyal to the PFC could create a relatively powerful enclave in NW Poland- a bridgehead in Europe, of sorts.

Adm.Lee

01-20-2010, 08:43 PM

Targan

01-20-2010, 09:45 PM

That seems a stretch, as I can't recall any indicators of CivGov trying to do much of anything outside its enclaves Stateside.

Not at all, what about Yugoslavia? That is pretty much CivGov's show as far as NATO is concerned.

I always assumed that CivGov were actively involved in intelligence gathering in Poland. In my campaign at least one of the pro-NATO Polish forces had CivGov sympathies.

Legbreaker

01-20-2010, 09:50 PM

The US forces located in the Balkans are all there due to Civgov's meddling in military matters. There's also a CIA operative attached to the Soviet 10th TD outside Warsaw (he meets with a violent fate sometime in winter 00-01).

The Oder River isn't a minor obstacle. Deep enough to accomodate battleships in WWII (one was grounded and used as a battery against the Soviets in the last days of the war), and wider than most easily portable bridging equipment can cope with, it would take a major operation to cross.

We can assume all prewar bridges and ferries have been destroyed in the preceeding 4 years of warfare and pontoon bridges, etc sabotaged and so on many times since. Anything capable of carrying more than a dozen people at a time is likely to be destroyed or otherwise unavailable (hidden away, sailed off to Norway, etc).

The Polish coastline from the mouth of the Oder all the way around to Gdynia is unsuitable for major amphibious operations with shallow treacherous waters. All the minor habours along this stretch allow vessels of no more than 4.7 metres draft (most modern warships, including those intended for amphibious ops require more than this).

Landing craft after 4 years of war are likely to be very rare and hard to come by. Fuel to power the few that are available is likely to have been expended landing the 2nd Marines east of Gdansk (and probably suffered losses from enemy resistance there).

Essentially all that's left able to access the XI Corps area are a few fishing boats and yachts, none able to carry more than a few tonnes at a time, IF fuel could be found. It's also probable the only port the XI has access to has been damaged by either or both sides previously and the approaches mined to prevent it's use by coastal patrol boats, torpedo boats, etc.

I've also previously mentioned somewhere than a withdrawal by the available transportation resources would require a long, gradual depletion of combat strength. Eventually the nearby enemy units would pick up on the withdrawal and also be strong enough to destroy the remaining elements of XI Corp. Chances are they'd also capture a fairlly large supply of equipment and stores in the process.

Basically the XI Corp has little hope of withdrawing without inviting a catastrophy. The best they can expect is for limited resupply by sea to the order of a few tonnes per day (at best). The good news is they should be able to evacuate badly wounded and excess specialist personnel while possibly receiving some reinforcements.

The PFC to me is almost an irrelevance. Lacking in effective combat power, chances are they'll be wiped out by marauders in the near future (if the Soviets don't do it first). At best they're a puppet government or ineffective propaganda tool of the west.

Abbott Shaull

01-21-2010, 07:10 AM

That seems a stretch, as I can't recall any indicators of CivGov trying to do much of anything outside its enclaves Stateside. Still, it's a possibility.
IMO, those "not-insurmountable" difficulties might have seemed insurmountable to those in command.

I think a combination of CIA/CivGov promises to both XI Corps' leaders and the Polish Free Congress together might have swung things their way. If, as I have said, Generals Sweitzer and Wojcik felt that they (and their new PFC allies) were being abandoned, then a CivGov appeal (from a CIA person with the PFC?) could work.

The CIA still had large presence in Poland. Well large for the it being Twilight 2000. They had operative who had Commander of the Soviet 10th Guards Tank Division to decide to head to the former Yugoslavia.

I don't see Operation Omega as the DIA/MilGov abandonment of the Polish Free Congress. I am sure NATO is still committed to the PFC as whole, okay maybe not all agree, Germans may want to reclaim territory, but in basis of Polish Government on NATO side they agree. For the PFC it will be just another set back in a long series of setbacks that date to 1939. I assumed that after the US troops out of NATO, they assumed the UK would continue to work with the PFC.

Also it could be also that the Command Staff of the US XI HQ aren't ignorant of Operation Omega. Maybe they had made choice to stay to help the PFC, but didn't want let other outside of HQ to know about their decision, due to losing troops who may want to go home.

Yes, I know how the canon is written, but people do adjust stuff they don't agree with. Or maybe you can write that XI Corps does what most troops in Central Command and the US Fourth Army. They simply decide to stay put. Just maybe one of the many reason they haven't moved is due to the fact they are there for the express reason to help the PFC get a larger foothold and to expand control of other parts of Poland.

Just some thoughts.

Raellus

01-21-2010, 01:28 PM

The Oder River isn't a minor obstacle. Deep enough to accomodate battleships in WWII (one was grounded and used as a battery against the Soviets in the last days of the war), and wider than most easily portable bridging equipment can cope with, it would take a major operation to cross.

I agree. I can see the loss of the Oder river bridges as a legitimate reason to stay put. On the other hand, I do think that a determined and resourceful commander could figure out a way to get most (if not all) of his men across. An entire Corps would likely have enough engineering units (and probably river crossing equipment) to be able to repair or rig up some kind of light bridge or ferry system. A good commander knows how to withdraw under pressure. Destroying heavy equipment in place is SOP when it must be abandoned and since OMEGA pretty much counts on leaving heavy equipment behind anyways.... The stakes are high. If they don't get out of Europe via OMEGA, they're likely going to be stuck there for at least a year or two, likely longer.

I think that there's got to be something more holding them back than the Oder.

The PFC to me is almost an irrelevance. Lacking in effective combat power, chances are they'll be wiped out by marauders in the near future (if the Soviets don't do it first). At best they're a puppet government or ineffective propaganda tool of the west.

I'll be able to show you on my map, when it's finished, but the PFC has several Polish army units under its control, including a fairly powerful (for the year 2000) MRD or TD, plus a few hundred others. 4000 armed men a few AFVs would be able to handle most marauder groups. The PFC is presumably pro-western and would therefore be well disposed to cooperating with the 6000 NATO troops of nearby XI Corps. It seems that both entities would stand to gain much more by working together than by not.

Abbott Shaull

01-21-2010, 05:00 PM

I'll be able to show you on my map, when it's finished, but the PFC has several Polish army units under its control, including a fairly powerful (for the year 2000) MRD or TD, plus a few hundred others. 4000 armed men a few AFVs would be able to handle most marauder groups. The PFC is presumably pro-western and would therefore be well disposed to cooperating with the 6000 NATO troops of nearby XI Corps. It seems that both entities would stand to gain much more by working together than by not.

Yes by the time offensive had ended the PFC military force had grown by the end of the year instead of shrink. Of course parts of one of the two Legion had gone rogue and doing their own thing. By this time there were maybe only a Division or two who were loyal to the Soviet puppet government based in Lublin. Of rest of the units some had switched to the PFC, while the majority had join/reinforce local militias where they finally found themselves after chasing after and fighting off various elements of the Third German Army in general.

Abbott Shaull

01-21-2010, 05:05 PM

I agree. I can see the loss of the Oder river bridges as a legitimate reason to stay put. On the other hand, I do think that a determined and resourceful commander could figure out a way to get most (if not all) of his men across. An entire Corps would likely have enough engineering units (and probably river crossing equipment) to be able to repair or rig up some kind of light bridge or ferry system. A good commander knows how to withdraw under pressure. Destroying heavy equipment in place is SOP when it must be abandoned and since OMEGA pretty much counts on leaving heavy equipment behind anyways.... The stakes are high. If they don't get out of Europe via OMEGA, they're likely going to be stuck there for at least a year or two, likely longer.

I think that there's got to be something more holding them back than the Oder.

Yes but putting one finger on it seems to be as much troubling as to what were the intention of the offensive of the Third German Army, and what if the Soviets had desires for an organized offensive where would they hit?

I know someone from the old board had done some work what the XI Corps would be doing in this region. I know there are some natural resources too that would be valuable.

Legbreaker

01-21-2010, 05:06 PM

As far as I can see, the PFC has little to nothing to do with the post WWII Polish government in exile which I think was located in London. It was however set up by Nato in Poznan during the good times in 1997 (before the nukes and Pact counteroffensive). On my brief bedtime read last night I couldn't see any reference to it moving after this time.

Therefore, (and almost unbelievably) it's apparently well behind enemy lines in 2000. However, Poznan was nuked - chances are that this occured because the PFC was located there, effectively wiping the newly created political entity off the face of the planet along with the majority of governements around the globe.

Abbott Shaull

01-21-2010, 05:09 PM

Looking at the Map it seems some German Third Army/German III Corps units were on either side of the US XI Corps at some points. Looks as if the III Corps was passing through the region being held by the main body of the XI Corps. Could be these units were their to help consolidate the XI Corps before they were withdrawn. Hence the reason why there are German units in the mix of the 2nd Marine Division.

Legbreaker

01-21-2010, 06:39 PM

It is possible that at least some elements of the Germans entered northern Poland as planned in support of XI Corp. It is unlikely they moved past, or even into to any great extent the area of operations of the XI Corps.

Once the Pact counter offensive got underway, the German III Corps were able to withdraw back to the west of the Oder. Some small elements may have been cut off along with XI Corp, most probably those who'd been tasked with resupply of the marines. This would explain why only the marines are shown to have picked up the German Leopard III.

It is almost certain that the 2nd MARDIV were the most easterly unit in the Nato offensive except for the US 5th and 8th IDs. They were therefore fairly lucky in my mind to have been able to withdraw and consolidate with the rest of the Corps.

GDWFan

01-31-2010, 02:16 AM

kato13

01-31-2010, 02:34 AM

Abbott Shaull

01-31-2010, 08:46 AM

I find that even if Legbreaker is totally wrong here which he may be, his point is solid this is not real life nor is it 1990-1995 troop levels.
Id say you would need 1986-88 OOB's and they would need to be slightly updated.

The DC Fellow is being very rude. If someone doesnt like your ideas you cant tell them not to post. Thats crazy and stop bragging your experience nobody here has any experience running a country directing a military or surviving nuclear war so everyone get off your high horses

I will say there is some bad blood here. Several people have had their feathers ruffled over some threads. I hate seeing things break down to pissing contest. When I come here, I like to see what people thing about one thing or another. In the end if you can present argument for your bottom line. The train of thought that you used for it, then I can walk away from with more knowledge than I had before.

You hit the nail on the head. T2K asks you to think outside of the box so to speak. Someone without any real life knowledge after reading the player rule book should be to play the game on a reasonable level playing field with someone who has been in the military/government/corporate manager, with a GM who can balance the two experience levels of their players.

There have been several incidents in Real Life that have happen, that shows how fast such things as Chain of Command can fall apart so fast or in some cases how some fail to kept others up their chain in fully inform of their operations for the sake of Operational Security. I can think of half dozen incidents that one could use almost T2K setting.

As an example during Operation Iraqi Freedom, during the drive into Iraq, when that Maintenance Company convoy made the wrong turn, well as has been pointed out the 2nd Marine Division has Germany tank in their organization. Well, what if, during movement element of a German unit got mis-oriented and took the wrong turn. The element leadership felt it was safer to stay with the XI US Corps than to travel back to link up with the III German Corps. There are several valid arguments why this thing or that thing happen.

I know none of us worked for GDW so we can't answer how they saw things, but as person who use to play as player and GM, I like to see how other feel things went. Also remember there are several lurkers who don't post often if at all. The bottom line is most of us here to see what others are doing or thinking about doing. Or seeing the new what ifs and whys, to expand out own personal knowledge of what would of happen, based on your point of view.

Okay getting off my damn soap box....

Legbreaker

10-05-2010, 08:10 AM

My theory of a general Pact counter offensive which pinned down the Germans and the rest of XI Corp just got a boost. In the 1st ed Adventure Handout: Escape from Kalisz, it states on the 11th of July:
German Third Army reported by radio that it was under attack by strong cavalry and mechanised forces from the Pila area, and had identified elements of the 1st Polish Tank Army. It also reported the Torun area had been overrun by elements of the Soviet 22nd Cavalry Army from Byelorussia.
I'd go further based on the "strong cavalry and mechanised forces" statement that the Pact unit strengths in the books are actually post offensive once the dust has settled.
My guess is, based on the starting position of the 5th ID on the 19th of June, that there needs to be a significant rethink on where the various units were at the beginning. Right now I'm thinking that XI Corp may well have started along a line stretching from just west of Gdynia down to Chojnice with the German III Corp located between Chojnice and Stargard region.
My thoughts are that Nato was actually pushed back to roughly the positions marked on the map in the 2.x yellow book...

Legbreaker

07-10-2012, 04:35 PM

ARGH!!!!!
I'm a fool. Why didn't I look in the V1 Play Manual when I was working through the details of the 2000 offensive and counter offensive - would have saved myself some work!
In the spring of the year 2000, the German 3rd Army launched its final offensive against Poland. It was postponed due to late rains - the soldiers were delayed in getting their fields planted.
I always thought there was something odd about the late start to the offensive....
It's funny how the real world historical records seem to indicate there was no decent rain until about May 2000.
The objective was to clear the Baltic coast of Polish and Soviet forces and thus gain control of the plentiful Baltic fishing and the Vistula River barge traffic.
Part of what I postulated!
To recap earlier posts, I proposed the offensive may have had the additional aim of "hooking" behind the PACT front lines (the 5th's raid) to force the Pact forces to withdraw or face being encircled.
When the offensive finally got under way it was spearheaded by the US Eleventh Corps, because they were less tied to their garrison areas than were the Germans.
This could mean they were able to move on time and able to make significant headway into northern Poland before the Germans had even finished planting.
Perhaps XI Corps had the advantage of the US reorganising the excess naval and air force personnel into "farm brigades" reducing the combat units need to do double duty in the fields?
The initial drives were successful, with two US divisions breaking loose and conducting deep penetration raids into the enemy rear area.
As mentioned in other threads recently, the 5th ID "jumping off point" for their "raid" has always seemed too deep within enemy territory for them to have wintered there. This seems to lend weight to my theory that the "Death of a Division" scenario was simply an additional phase to an already under way general offensive.
While the 8th Division (Mechanised) headed for the port of Kalingrad and a link-up with the Free Latvian Army, the 5th Division (Mechanised) headed southeast towards Lodz.
Seems to answer a few questions about why the 8th ID is where it is...
Then everything started to come apart.
The last battle-worthy remnants of the Polish army counterattacked, and battered themselves to pieces against the NATO troops. When the dust had settled, though, the last heavy equipment of Eleventh Corps was burning junk.
So it seems the Poles had the strength to inflict serious damage on the "all powerful" US XI Corps. This quote seems to indicate the Polish army had a much greater strength prior to the offensive than we see in the various books as of 01JUL00. This lends weight in my opinion to an earlier start date for the XI Corps portion of the offensive than mid June.
The quote also seems to indicate that the XI Corps is in a bad way after the Poles are done with them, likely disorganised and with much of their surviving tanks and APC strength in serious need of repairs, artillery overrun and destroyed, and supporting units in disarray and possibly shot to pieces by the Polish cavalry.
The remnants of four Soviet armies went on the offensive against the base camp areas of 3rd German Army, and German troops began drifting west to bolster the defences of their homes.
It's interesting to note this seems to have only occurred after the Poles were done with the XI Corps up north. The German Third Army radio reports on the 11th of July (see previous post) would appear to confirm this.
It's also conclusive evidence of a general PACT offensive in region between the coast and Berlin (and possibly further south also). This would certainly have cut off the XI Corps from Germany given the likely destruction of bridges in that region either during the attacks, or in the earlier years of the war.
Finally, two additional Soviet armies, the 4th Guards Tank and 22nd Cavalry, rolled across the Polish frontier from Byelorussia and hit the US 5th Division. With a combined strength of 21,000 men and almost a hundred modern tanks, the two Soviet armies ploughed 5th Division under near the Polish city of Kalisz, 200 kilometres southwest of Warsaw.
That right there says a lot about the pre-offensive/counter offensive strengths on the European battlefield. Post Kalisz, there's only about 12,000 men left, 3,700 of which (the 22nd Cavalry) didn't even take part in destroying the 5th ID. As for tanks, the situation is absolutely catastrophic. From the 100 modern tanks that started out, according to the Soviet vehicle guides only 5 are left (in Polish hands)....