Fort Knox

[kalos72]

Has anyone thought about what would happen with Fort Knox?

I just saw a History Channel report on it and it got me thinking...

[Rainbow Six]

There's some discussion about Fort Knox on this thread

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2736&highlight=Knox

[kalos72]

Nice. Thanks for the link.

Gives me some good ideas... :)

[DocSavage45B10]

As much as I despise Ft Knox and its hills (thanks Misery and Agony, yes I did my BCT there), I can't see MILGOV pulling the plug on it. The Gold is there, and with the end of fiat currency, Gold is money again. Besides as Legbreaker points out in the referenced thread, its too damn heavy to move it anywhere.

[mikeo80]

If you really want to get paranoid....

There is always the (unproven?) theory that Ft. Knox is nothing but a show place. The gold was never "really" there. Yes there was the ONE time some members of Congress were shown into the vault. But was it really gold?

I am not a fan of huge conspiracy theories...

However...

I'm just thinking out loud....

My $0.02

Mike

[rcaf_777]

Is Knox on the Nuke Hit list

You would have blast the base just make the un useable, I think the governement might take steps to move some of the gold some where eles

[Legbreaker]

Is Knox on the Nuke Hit list

Check the thread referenced above for answers to your query.

[kalos72]

It wasnt...

I like the idea of sinking the barges to hide them once they realized they couldnt get them out to CO...

OR

The depository becomes a sefl suffecient fortress of special ops folks or something....

:)

[rcaf_777]

Here is the thing the United States Bullion Depository is inside the army base which is called Fort Knox

Fort Knox durring twilight would have been a huge area of activity as it would the US Army Armoured Traning School, I'm also sure you see the Kentucky State Guard training there as well.

As for the gold well pick an option that works best for you

Option 1 - The US Government moves SOME of the gold to secert locations before the attacks of thanksgiving

Option 2 - The US Government moves ALL of the gold to secert locations before the attacks of thanksgiving

Option 3 - The US Government moves NONE of the gold

As for the Fort Knox the base, will speaking from a Military stand point, an untouch base like Fort Knox with troops, untouch military infrastructure, and airfeild would a major asset to CIV or MIL Gov

Other thing to remember are


1. Fort Knox is only 38 miles from Louisville Ky, which is a major crossing of the Ohio River

2 . Three major highways also meet at Louisville

2. Kentucky as about 400 Coal Mines

4. Louisville is gateway to the Ohio Valley

Just curious what units would at Fort Knox in 2000

[RN7]

Here is the thing the United States Bullion Depository is inside the army base which is called Fort Knox

Fort Knox durring twilight would have been a huge area of activity as it would the US Army Armoured Traning School, I'm also sure you see the Kentucky State Guard training there as well.

As for the gold well pick an option that works best for you

Option 1 - The US Government moves SOME of the gold to secert locations before the attacks of thanksgiving

Option 2 - The US Government moves ALL of the gold to secert locations before the attacks of thanksgiving

Option 3 - The US Government moves NONE of the gold

There is a huge amount of gold deposited at Fort Knox; 4,578 metric tons as of 2012 which is equivelant to 2.5% of all the gold ever refined in history. Yet the underground vault in Federal Reserve Bank of New York in Manhattan is even bigger at 7,000 metric tons. America's gold reserves are by far the largest in the world, over 60% larger than Germany who has the second largest gold reserves in the world and three times larger than the International Monetary Fund. I just don't know were or how the US Government could have moved all this gold in such a short time.


As for the Fort Knox the base, will speaking from a Military stand point, an untouch base like Fort Knox with troops, untouch military infrastructure, and airfeild would a major asset to CIV or MIL Gov

Other thing to remember are


1. Fort Knox is only 38 miles from Louisville Ky, which is a major crossing of the Ohio River

2 . Three major highways also meet at Louisville

2. Kentucky as about 400 Coal Mines

4. Louisville is gateway to the Ohio Valley

Just curious what units would at Fort Knox in 2000


There are a lot of military units based in Fort Knox.

3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team (1st Infantry Division)
3rd Sustainment Command (Expeditionary)
19th Engineer Battalion
16th Cavalry Regiment
194th Armored Brigade
34th Military Police Detachment
46th Adjutant General Battalion
95th Training Division (formerly 95th Infantry Division)
113th Band
Ireland Army Community Hospital MEDDAC
84th Training Command
70th Training Division (FT)

[Legbreaker]

I'm of the opinion (as seen in the previous thread) that the gold isn't going anywhere. There's simply no call for it when it could be moved, and once the area is abandoned, there's no practical way of doing it.

Most of the units based at Fort Knox in peacetime are sure to have been sent to war by 1997-1998. It's extremely unlikely many of the peacetime military personnel will be still there although the base is sure to have been used for training replacements up until it could no longer be held at a sustainable cost.

[DocSavage45B10]

Even when the units deploy they will leave rear detachments behind that can and will be used as the nucleus for new units post TDM. Also Knox is a BCT / OSUT base so there would pretty much always be units in formation there.

If you're looking for a reason to abandon Ft Knox, personnel ain't it.

[WallShadow]

I'm tempted to ask if Pussy Galore and her Flying Circus will be providing close air support in the occasion of a ground assault by North Koreans? :rolleyes:

[Legbreaker]

If you're looking for a reason to abandon Ft Knox, personnel ain't it.

It's just one factor amongst many. Take out one element of Milgovs reasoning to leave and they might just have stayed - enough reliable food to supply troops, enough troops to obtain said food and provide security, less threat from the surrounding region.

But, withdraw they did and directly into combat with the Civgov 84th Infantry. Sure, a handful of small units may have stayed, but for how long? Could they really hold out against the mounting pressure from virtually all directions against a variety of threats? Were those units instead absorbed by the 194th at some point and incorporated into their logistics or combat organisation?

[DocSavage45B10]

Like I said, if you're looking for reasons, personel aint it, it's a major training base, you those guys they're still trying to ship overseas even after the exchange? They have to be trained somewhere.

Personally in my game, I just don't see why Knox would be abandoned. Looking at the map, the only reason I can see is if Louisville collapses into blood soaked anarchy and the installation gets over-run. But given that is isn't Dies the Fire I'm not seeing it, not for my game at least.

[Panther Al]

Agreed: There is simply too much infrastructure in Knox for it to be abandoned for anything but serious earth shattering reasons. You have large barracks area's, massive facilities for training ranging from bunkerage, maintenance, and more.

Its far enough away from major population area's, that there wouldn't be a massive surge towards it yet close enough it can still be a influence.

And the terrain is custom made for the defence. Agony, Heartbreak, and Misery isn't the only hills of doom.

[rcaf_777]

There is a huge amount of gold deposited at Fort Knox; 4,578 metric tons

Based on this you would need 78 Semi-Trailer Trucks to haul the gold away, using the years 1995-1998 as the years the gold could moved, you could stagger the removal rate at about one truck 1 1/2 per month.

Using the night and high pace of military activity at Fort Knox, I think you could move some of the gold without to many people knowing

FYI here is the math

4,578 metric ton = 4,578,000 kilograms,
Semi-Trailer Maximum Weight (Triple Wheel): 59,000 kg

I think we should keep in mind the US Government would only move a limited ammount of the gold not alll the gold

[RN7]

Based on this you would need 78 Semi-Trailer Trucks to haul the gold away, using the years 1995-1998 as the years the gold could moved, you could stagger the removal rate at about one truck 1 1/2 per month.

Using the night and high pace of military activity at Fort Knox, I think you could move some of the gold without to many people knowing

FYI here is the math

4,578 metric ton = 4,578,000 kilograms,
Semi-Trailer Maximum Weight (Triple Wheel): 59,000 kg

I think we should keep in mind the US Government would only move a limited ammount of the gold not alll the gold


But to where?

[Rainbow Six]

But to where?

Maybe some sort of secret underground storage facilty similar to the one in Allegeheny Uprising?

[simonmark6]

If they had enough notice, stick the gold on a train, run it up to an abandoned rail tunnel, drive in, remove engines and collapse both ends of the tunnel.

[Tegyrius]

But to where?

Multiple dispersal facilities. Why keep it concentrated for a single catastrophe to eliminate?

- C.

[Legbreaker]

As discussed in the previous thread, why go to all that bother. The existing facilities have to be stronger than just about any possible alternative and hardened up to and including a near miss (perhaps even direct hit) by a sizeable nuke. Shifting the gold introduces a whole range of potential problems which simply aren't needed.

Also, why bother shifting it before nukes are used in Europe in July 1997?
If a slow movement was then considered, by the time it was organised November would have almost rolled around.

Also, Fort Knox was where the US Constitution and all the other valuable historical items were stored in WWII. If it's good enough for them, surely it's good enough for the gold....?

It has to be remembered that in early 1997 nuclear war, while a possibility, seemed to have been avoided. The Soviets, always expected to resort to nukes within weeks, if not days of the commencement of hostilities, had held back, choosing instead to continue with conventional warfare. It wasn't until the writing was well and truly on the wall for them that they opened Pandora's box and let loose. Even then it was very, very restrained with just the odd tactical warhead used here and there and only against targets within 50km or so of their own border (ok, China was being turned to glass at the time, but the west had next to no units involved there to worry about).

We can see in Howling Wilderness that US civilians panicked at the first used of nukes and left the cities in droves, but soon returned when nothing happened. Even towards the end of 1997 many could have been forgiven for believing nuclear war at home had been avoided and their homes, their jobs, their families, and their government and military infrastructure was safe.

So, given the almost complete lack of reasons to move the gold, why would anyone have even considered it as a possibility?

[Rainbow Six]

So, given the almost complete lack of reasons to move the gold, why would anyone have even considered it as a possibility?

It may be something as simple as because there were Continuation of Government plans that mandated moving the gold when a certain trigger point was reached. One of those trigger points may have been the first use of nuclear weapons (i.e. in July 1997). By reading the books we have the benefit of knowing that there was no immediate escalation, but the leaders of the US Government in such a situation would not have had that luxury - for all they knew the nuclear exchange could spread to the US in days (if not hours).

In other words, when events elsewhere mean that a certain box gets ticked, the plan kicks in as a precautionary measure. I do agree that the chances of any such box being ticked prior to July 1997 are quite slim, but after that who knows what emergency plans might be implemented?

[Legbreaker]

True, that is a possibility, but highly unlikely given the reputed overwhelming security of the facility.
Another issue is that of simple logistics. With the vast majority of US military manpower fighting overseas on multiple fronts in multiple areas of the world, just how much is going to be left to carry out such a monumental task?

As always, everyone's free to do whatever they want in their own world, but for the life of me I just can't see the logic behind such a move, let alone the capacity to carry it out in such an environment.

[RN7]

It may be something as simple as because there were Continuation of Government plans that mandated moving the gold when a certain trigger point was reached.


The U.S. Government has a number of sites for this purpose. Two well known ones at Raven Rock Mountain Complex, Pennsylvania and Mount Weather Emergency Operations Centre, Virginia. One lesser well known one somewhere in the vacinity of Denver Colorado, and probably two other ones who only the top brass in the Pentagon know about.

Area B at Mount Weather; the underground part of the complex might be a good place to store U.S. gold reserves and other valuables. The U.S Army hollowed out of the rock 600,000 square feet of tunnels and rooms with roofs reinforced by iron bolts from the 1950's. There seems to be a lot of secret stuff there and locals reported in 2001 that the mountain opened up and Air Force One flew in and then the mountain closed right up. However I think Virginia is largely a CIVGOV state in T2K.

[Legbreaker]

However, if their location is known to simple civilians and not a classified top secret, what's the bet the Soviets don't also know their location and have them already targeted?
Seems silly to shift items from a supposedly super secure fortress to one of those facilities which are used to store many other items and therefore perhaps even more of a target. May not destroy what's inside, but if the doorway glows in the dark and is more melted glass than stone and metal....

[Rainbow Six]

I just can't see the logic behind such a move, let alone the capacity to carry it out in such an environment.

Whoever said Governments are logical in their actions? ;)

Seriously, with regards to manpower, I don't have a copy of the US Vehicle Guide to hand, so don't know when the 194th Armoured Brigade left Fort Knox, but it's possible that at least some elements of that Brigade remained at Knox for just such a task (I know the books say they formed a small strategic reserve but that's not incompatible with also having a role shifting the gold).

With regards to the location of the site, RN7 has identified a few of the more well known ones, but as he rightly states there may be a number of others whose existence is a much more closely guarded secret that the gold could be taken to, and it doesn't have to all go to the same place.

To a certain extent I'm reminded of Goldfinger - although it's been a long, long time since I saw it, if I recall correctly, wasn't Auric's idea to make the gold radioactive, and therefore effectively useless as a trade item? Similar thinking may have been taking place during the summer of 1997 as nukes started flying in Europe. Who knows how impenetrable Knox's vaults are? It may be possible that whilst the gold may not be destroyed, a heavy enough attack could render it radioactive and therefore useless - who would accept a bar of radioactive gold as payment knowing that handling it could be fatal?

[DocSavage45B10]

Don't the active isotopes of gold have short half-lives? And also the most likely use for the gold is to sit in bank vaults as backing for bank-notes or copper and silver coinage. Gold is typically reserved for very large transactions in gold based monetary systems.


To a certain extent I'm reminded of Goldfinger - although it's been a long, long time since I saw it, if I recall correctly, wasn't Auric's idea to make the gold radioactive, and therefore effectively useless as a trade item? Similar thinking may have been taking place during the summer of 1997 as nukes started flying in Europe. Who knows how impenetrable Knox's vaults are? It may be possible that whilst the gold may not be destroyed, a heavy enough attack could render it radioactive and therefore useless - who would accept a bar of radioactive gold as payment knowing that handling it could be fatal?

[Legbreaker]

I believe Gold acts very much like Lead in relation to radiation. Not being a physicist, I'm in no position to say more than that with anything even approaching authority.

And yes, my understanding is the gold is never actually moved anywhere - it's held in storage to back the dollar and generally give credit something solid to work with. The gold being radioactive wouldn't mean a thing since it's not actually intended to physically change hands at any time. Even large transactions don't require transfer of anything physical - just a few numbers in a computer system.

Now given the destruction of the world economic system, that will change significantly, BUT that still doesn't mean anyone would identify a need for the gold to be shifted before it (or the global economic system it forms a part of) was nuked.

[rcaf_777]

Lets look at the book WAR DAY for the answer to how Gold wouldbe used

The book says that the British are engaged in operations that the US has to pay for so the US transfers gold from the US Pile at Fort Knox to the British Pile

if that was to happen what country would like to have radioactive gold?

[Rainbow Six]

Now given the destruction of the world economic system, that will change significantly, BUT that still doesn't mean anyone would identify a need for the gold to be shifted before it (or the global economic system it forms a part of) was nuked.

Agai, I think this comes back to contingency planning. Did (or probably more accurately does) the United States Government have a contingency plan to move gold reserves out of Fort Knox should a certain situation occur (specifically in this case the use of tactical nuclear weapons in Europe)?

Who knows...such a plan is hardly likely to be in the public domain, but surely Governments have a responsibility to anticipate different scenarios and plan accordingly. FWIW it's now open source information that the British Government planned to transfer all of its gold reserves (including reserves of other countries held in the UK) from the Bank of England to North Wales as part of its Transition to War measures - even the operation's code name can be tracked down

Recent disclosures in TNA documents identify that the tunnels at the former Valley Works at Rhydymwyn were planned to be used in the Cold War for the relocation of the 3,700 tons of gold from the Bank of England vault at Mount Pleasant. This transfer would have taken place in the run up to war and would have been effected by soldiers in 10 ton lorries. The transfer would have taken 10-14 days and the unpacked gold bars would have been unloaded and stacked by forklift. The soldiers would then have used 6,000 square feet of surface accommodation and guarded the site. This operation, originally named MALLARD, was later called FOLIUM. This arrangement was still in place in 1980

Source here

http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?inst_id=28&coll_id=78416&expand=

And here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10218941

[Legbreaker]

Warday isn't the best comparison to Twilight:2000 as the "war" was extremely limited in scope (only a few cities), only took a day, and only included the USA and USSR. Most of the worlds shipping and industrial capacity still exists, and includes the US (those areas not hit by nukes are easily put back into production once the EMP effects are dealt with).
Gold in that environment is easily moved across the globe, and other countries are much more able and willing to trade their products for it - products which in T2K are in extremely short supply and desperately needed in their country of origin.

[DocSavage45B10]

Lets look at the book WAR DAY for the answer to how Gold wouldbe used

The book says that the British are engaged in operations that the US has to pay for so the US transfers gold from the US Pile at Fort Knox to the British Pile

if that was to happen what country would like to have radioactive gold?

Even when there where gold coins, there were very few of them and their actual use was quite rare. Gold is just too darn valuable to use in everyday transactions, normally its like using a 1,000 bill to pay for groceries. There was a brief window in the US in the late 1800s through the early 1900s after the California and Yukon gold rushes when gold fell enough in price that gold coinage became somewhat common, but that was a particular set of circumstances.

As a backing for non-gold currency, even itself metallic (silver and copper are your usual suspects), the gold doesn't have to go anywhere, but move to piles that represent various banks. Even if the gold is hot, this matters only to the poor sods that have to move it.

In TW2K, there's enough gold commonly recoverable by mining the cities (jewelry, coin collections, industrial stocks, etc.) that anyone who needs gold coins can mint their own easily enough. And the only people who need them are those who can afford to mine the cities, IE already have food and arms and able bodies.

[DocSavage45B10]

I believe Gold acts very much like Lead in relation to radiation. Not being a physicist, I'm in no position to say more than that with anything even approaching authority.

And yes, my understanding is the gold is never actually moved anywhere - it's held in storage to back the dollar and generally give credit something solid to work with. The gold being radioactive wouldn't mean a thing since it's not actually intended to physically change hands at any time. Even large transactions don't require transfer of anything physical - just a few numbers in a computer system.

Now given the destruction of the world economic system, that will change significantly, BUT that still doesn't mean anyone would identify a need for the gold to be shifted before it (or the global economic system it forms a part of) was nuked.

From Wiki (I know usual caveats apply)

Gold (Au) has one stable isotope, 197Au, and 36 radioisotopes with 195Au being the most stable with a half-life of 186 days.

Gold has been proposed as a material for creating a salted nuclear weapon (cobalt is another, better-known salting material). A jacket of natural 197Au, irradiated by the intense high-energy neutron flux from an exploding thermonuclear weapon, would transmute into the radioactive isotope 198Au with a half-life of 2.697 days and produce approximately .411 MeV of gamma radiation, significantly increasing the radioactivity of the weapon's fallout for several days. Such a weapon is not known to have ever been built, tested, or used.

According to the entry on salted weapons, the reason Au has never been used for this purpose is that the half life is too short, and a targeted population might survive at an undesireable rate. IE it makes a bad weapon.

Worst case scenario, the gold is prime hot for just under 27 weeks.

Ah carp, hello this is IT, have tried turning it off and turning back on again?...

[Benjamin]

While initially supportive of the idea that the gold would remain at Knox, I have changed my mind. As soon as Soviet forces cross into Norway (Nov. 1996) the US would be at war with the USSR. This would certainly trigger numerous contingency plans regarding the hoarding of essential war materials and the dispersion of these materials to numerous safe sites (both known and unknown to the general public) across the nation. Sure there would be a public sigh of relief when the war remains conventional during the Nov. 1996 - July 1997 time period, but it is unlikely that preparations would cease as fighting continued. This means there is a 7-8 month period wherein the US government could implement war time plans with very little disruption. When the Tac nukes begin to fall further plans would be implemented and as China burns there would be a feeling of urgency not yet seen. So there is a 5 month period where the US really busts its butt to make ready for the coming escalation. One does not make countless doomsday plans and then not implement them just because the things take a bit longer than expected to fall completely apart.

There is a very big reason to move the gold from Knox. As soon as the strategic exchange occurs fiat currency is no better than toilet paper. This may even begin in July as the tactical exchange spooks the public and panics global markets (I can't imagine what the stock markets will look like from mid-1995 till Nov. 1997...talk about a wild ride). Unless the government wants to take all essential war material from the populace by gunpoint (and some of this is sure to happen) they will need hard currency. The best form of this is gold for many reasons.

Interestingly, the US gold reserve may be even larger in T2K than it is in real life. China will need to buy weapons. This isn't the China of today. China in 1995 is much poorer and holds less US debt, thus after forgiving what debt it holds it will need to pay using hard currency, especially as it looks as though they may loose. Furthermore to protect their remaining gold reserves it is likely they will be moved to the US by way of Hong Kong. Once China collapses the US will likely take the Chinese gold as payment for outstanding debts. Similar exchanges of hard currency will occur throughout the world as nations struggle to pay ever growing war debts. While the US will surely go into tremendous debt, once again there is no other nation to really turn to and so the US will print money, sell bonds and sell weapons to pay for the war. Once the nuclear exchanges occur bonds, paper money, stock and bank loans will mean nothing. All that remains are gold and barter. This is obvious and this is way MilGov will make every effort to retain control of the gold from Fort Knox.

[kalos72]

Good post Benjamin...

Side note though, why would the US government feel Fort Knox isnt the safest location possible? I mean it is obviously built for direct impact right?

My concern is that by the time they realized they would not be able to hold onto major portions of the country, would they have the manpower/equipment/security to move all that gold?

Remember this is a MAJOR miltiary installation, what plan do they have for losing control over one of the largest military bases in the country?

[Benjamin]

Good post Benjamin...

Side note though, why would the US government feel Fort Knox isnt the safest location possible? I mean it is obviously built for direct impact right?

My concern is that by the time they realized they would not be able to hold onto major portions of the country, would they have the manpower/equipment/security to move all that gold?

Remember this is a MAJOR miltiary installation, what plan do they have for losing control over one of the largest military bases in the country?

My argument is that once war begins certain contingency plans will automatically go into effect. As pretty much everyone believed that war between the superpowers would eventually go nuclear and nuclear war would lead to the crippling of modern society; then preparing for this would be of vital importance for the survival of the national government. One of the most important parts of modern society (and arguably one of the most fragile) is the banking system. The war has destroyed that system.

Furthermore the idea of fiat money will also be destroyed. Some others in this thread have put forth the argument that merely having the gold and using it to back paper money or coins will be enough. With the break down of modern American society, two competing governments (three counting NA) and general anarchy throughout the nation; few people will be willing to accept the good word of an unknown military unit as they pass through a community. Sure it's nice to say their paper money is redeemable for gold but when one has to travel to Colorado Springs, Omaha or Fort Knox to get said gold then the paper money is as good as worthless. So if a government unit wants local labor or help without resorting to plundering or trading away crucial supplies they will need a hard currency that is widely recognized.

The gold will be moved from Fort Knox not because the facility is deemed unsafe, but because it is needed as a hard currency. Many of the bars will be melted down, turned into coins and handed out to agents of whichever government is able to hold Fort Knox long enough to move the gold out. Manpower shortages won't be a problem because moving the gold and preparing for the collapse of the banking system will begin as soon as US troops enter conflict against Soviet forces.

Benjamin

[Legbreaker]

Side note though, why would the US government feel Fort Knox isnt the safest location possible? I mean it is obviously built for direct impact right?

My concern is that by the time they realized they would not be able to hold onto major portions of the country, would they have the manpower/equipment/security to move all that gold?

Remember this is a MAJOR military installation, what plan do they have for losing control over one of the largest military bases in the country?

That's my problem with shifting the gold too. We also know the Ft Knox gold isn't the only, or even largest storehouse in the country either. There are other gold deposits more likely to be shifted, such as was tried in New York.

[DocSavage45B10]

Even if the Gold is dispersed by plan, it will end up in bank vaults, not in circulation, IMO. In an agricultural-military economy, there aren't enough luxury goods to drive prices up, or enough gold to deflate its value, to make gold currency useful for anyone but warlords. You don't buy groceries with a 1,000 bill, and even Italian condoterri rarely got paid in gold anything. And when they did, they found a money changer (and got cheated) because no one could give them change for a years pay for an average worker.

The gold will be backing unit/government notes or silver and copper coins, or both, and people will be glad to take it, because the alternative is exactly worthless fiat 'script' from those same warlords, and lead as the alternative to not taking the paper. As for paying labor, anyone who controls cropland can get all the labor he needs by paying in food. And he'll need the labor because the shortage of fossil fuels and destruction of infrastructure means that farming is going to more labor intensive and the harvest less transportable.

"We'll give you a receipt for it, all signed by Captain Barr
And when Ireland gets her freedom, boy, you'll get your motor car"

Money does not have to have intrinsic value to be useful as a medium of exchange, in fact there are reasons why it is better to use value-less money, principly so that rulers stop asociating money with wealth, and start worrying about things like the production of goods and services.

Furthermore the idea of fiat money will also be destroyed. Some others in this thread have put forth the argument that merely having the gold and using it to back paper money or coins will be enough. With the break down of modern American society, two competing governments (three counting NA) and general anarchy throughout the nation; few people will be willing to accept the good word of an unknown military unit as they pass through a community. Sure it's nice to say their paper money is redeemable for gold but when one has to travel to Colorado Springs, Omaha or Fort Knox to get said gold then the paper money is as good as worthless. So if a government unit wants local labor or help without resorting to plundering or trading away crucial supplies they will need a hard currency that is widely recognized.

The gold will be moved from Fort Knox not because the facility is deemed unsafe, but because it is needed as a hard currency. Many of the bars will be melted down, turned into coins and handed out to agents of whichever government is able to hold Fort Knox long enough to move the gold out. Manpower shortages won't be a problem because moving the gold and preparing for the collapse of the banking system will begin as soon as US troops enter conflict against Soviet forces.

Benjamin

[Legbreaker]

The only real use I can see for the gold is to trade with other large organisations such as foreign countries for desperately needed items such as food and fuel.
Given just about every other country is also in a very bad place and in need of every last scrap of those vital resources, it's extremely doubtful there'll be any significant trade of such items for a number of years to come, and therefore, no significant requirement for the gold. As Doc said, even a small gold coin is worth far more than the average person will expect to see in months and changing it for lesser values isn't going to be very easy. Trade in kind is the only real way of paying for anything during the recovery years as nobody can eat, burn, shelter under, or wipe their butt with gold.

Back around 2000, gold IRL was worth approximately US$35 per gram, or $35,000 per kilo. In my games I devalue it to $20 per gram and anyone who wants to use gold in transactions is either clipping small amounts from jewellery, or dealing with gold dust and a set of scales.

Even at $20 per gram, 4,578 tonnes adds up to US$91,560,000,000 - far, far more than anyone is going to need, or be able to spend in the first years of the 21st century.

While I can see the attraction in moving the gold, logically there just doesn't seem to be any need to do so when it's possible, and once the situation changes and Ft Knox is/has to be abandoned, the logistics don't stack up as possible, especially when you look at just the publicly known security measures in place.

[DocSavage45B10]

A good rule of thumb for roleplaying is $1000 per troy ounce (approx 31 grams). There are many coins that are about an ounce size so this is a useful approximation. Now this is actually a useful currency for a group of heavily armed mercenaries who buy ammunition, fuel, weapons, and manufactured goods in bulk, like say PCs. But not common people.

So no chests full of gold, but briefcases would work.

[rcaf_777]

Canadian Forces Station Carp (also CFS Carp and commonly known as The Diefenbunker) was designed to hold gold invent of nuclear war it gold vault was used a Gym is later stages of the bunker operation