Alcohol powered Jets

[Panther Al]

Yes, evidently you can make jet fuel out of cellulose products...

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/20120705202736.aspx

[Cdnwolf]

Hmmm now can it be used in helicopters?

[Webstral]

Mike Foxtrot! So there's a chance that a major disruption in the flow of petroleum won't destroy us.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'm not going to say I'd allow such a thing in T2k but Lord knows it's a super cool idea.

I mean you still (no pun intended) have to make the stuff and get it to aircraft. Aircraft engines require other lubricants that you can't make out of CHOOH, etc.

But again it's very neat.

[Legbreaker]

I'm not going to say I'd allow such a thing in T2k but Lord knows it's a super cool idea.

I agree, very cool. For me though it's a timeline thing - it's still just in the experimental stage in 2012, unlikely to see action in T2K.

[stg58fal]

I'm not going to say I'd allow such a thing in T2k but Lord knows it's a super cool idea.

I mean you still (no pun intended) have to make the stuff and get it to aircraft. Aircraft engines require other lubricants that you can't make out of CHOOH, etc.

But again it's very neat.

True, but IIRC, according to both the v1 and v2/2.2 timelines, there's a trickle of petroleum still coming out and being refined. I don't remember the exact quote, or which book its in, but it says something to the effect of 'theres need for lubricants is great enough that no one can afford to actually BURN any of the oil being pumped and refined'.

To me this seems like saying that there is some supply of new-production, petroleum-based lubricants to be had. Expensive and hard to find, yes, without a doubt, but they're there.

One thing I've wondered about for years, both in terms of T2k and IRL, is why is it that the Germans were making synthetic oil for the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe toward the tail end of WWII (admittedly, not in anything even close to the quantity needed, but still....), but after the war (WWII) no one seemed to ever want to do so again? In game, just making a couple barrels of motor oil, grease, etc., every week would make someone very, very rich. By T2k standards, anyway.

Maybe there's an adventure idea....some German chemist has been making synthetic crude oil/diesel/motor oil, what-have-you, and selling small quantities to support himself and further his research into improving the process. But now the word is out, and everyone wants him to come work for them. And some of the 'prospective employers' don't intend to ask nicely or offer a generous compensation package...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

True, but IIRC, according to both the v1 and v2/2.2 timelines, there's a trickle of petroleum still coming out and being refined. I don't remember the exact quote, or which book its in, but it says something to the effect of 'theres need for lubricants is great enough that no one can afford to actually BURN any of the oil being pumped and refined'.


I'm not sure which the RDF Sourcebook covers but I think it's 1.0 (or 2.0 at the latest?) but there's quite a few a/c flying in the mideast - but then, they're right at the source so "wasting" production on JP5 isn't that big a deal out there.

But that aside, yes, you're right...the POL is focusing heavily on the "OL" part for the time being.


To me this seems like saying that there is some supply of new-production, petroleum-based lubricants to be had. Expensive and hard to find, yes, without a doubt, but they're there.


Agreed!


One thing I've wondered about for years, both in terms of T2k and IRL, is why is it that the Germans were making synthetic oil for the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe toward the tail end of WWII (admittedly, not in anything even close to the quantity needed, but still....), but after the war (WWII) no one seemed to ever want to do so again? In game, just making a couple barrels of motor oil, grease, etc., every week would make someone very, very rich. By T2k standards, anyway.


In reverse order, I agree with you entirely and it's probably because in 1946 onward until the late 1960s petroleum was pennies on the barrel (as it were).


Maybe there's an adventure idea....some German chemist has been making synthetic crude oil/diesel/motor oil, what-have-you, and selling small quantities to support himself and further his research into improving the process. But now the word is out, and everyone wants him to come work for them. And some of the 'prospective employers' don't intend to ask nicely or offer a generous compensation package...

...maybe on the side he's invented this "AvGas Alcohol" and could get the few flyable a/c Europe-side airborne again...

[Webstral]

Synthetic oil has an unfavorable ratio of energy in to energy out compared to conventional oil. As oil supplies dwindle in the real world, the market may become more favorable for synthetic oil. For now, though, the real reason to use synthetic oil is that you have coal but not enough oil to meet your needs.

[Legbreaker]

There's a number of references in the books to old oil being "reconditioned" by straining and letting it settle for a while. This reconditioned oil is shown in one example as giving a reduction in the number of hours per week required for maintenance of a vehicle for about a month.

Much of the lubricants in Europe has probably been recycled numerous times, disabled/destroyed vehicles drained and every last drop carefully hoarded. It's probably in an opponents best interest to disable rather than go for outright destruction, simply to scavenge the lubricants for themselves.

Down in the Middle East and over in Romania the situation is likely quite different, although my guess is the old lubricants are added to the crude and reprocessed. Every drop is valuable....

[Cdnwolf]

Goodbye Operation Reset, Hello Operation Paper Plane ....

[Olefin]

If you look you still have oil production going on in the Middle East per the RDF as was stated earlier (enough that there is some left to be exported but not much) that can support not only a very decent sized US and Soviet air presence there but also a French one - one that is big enough that even by mid 2001 (Kings Ransom) there are still lots of air units and air activity going on.

Ditto in Med Cruise - there are still Soviet Air units operating in Romania because of Ploesti.

You also have the refinery working in Kenya per Frank Frey (his unfinished module Lions in Twilight) as well as refineries and oil fields producing still in the US (Howling Wilderness and mentioned in the basic game guide - i.e. 60% of US refining and production capability is gone, which leaves approxiamately 40% still available but not necessarily in production) or ones that can be put back into production (Red Star, Lone Star)

Add in whats left in Australia, Argentina, etc.. and you have a lot of oil left still considering how few operational aircraft and tanks there still are compared to 1996. Its not yet Mad Max where there is almost nothing left. The real problem is getting it where its needed and getting spare parts made to keep the refineries you have left still going.

and that is mentioned in the RDF - i.e. the number of ships that can transport oil has been reduced significantly - and in Howling Wilderness - i.e. the reduced production cited at at least one US refinery still working


Oh by the way - the Japanese were using alternative fuels to operate prop planes at the end of WWII when their oil was getting cut off - there was a reduction in performance and range - but they could still operate as combat aircraft

I am not sure if any of the people who wrote the GDW modules were engineers or had a technical background - but their assertion that you cant fly aircraft except with avgas wasnt technically correct. You can do it - but most likely at a penalty versus the kind of performance you got from avgas or jet fuel i.e. you wont get the combat radius, speed and payload you would get with regular aircraft fuels.

So can you get that old P-51 off the ground with alternative fuels - sure but probably not with anything like a full weapons load or range or speed. Still its better than nothing.

[Olefin]

Just some info on fuel for everyone's info - by the way reciprocating engines are supposed to get avgas only

this info is from
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/engines-fuel.htm

Aviation Gasoline (AVGAS) has been better known for its flammability than for its significant toxicity. Exposure may occur during handling, storage, or engine maintenance. JP4 and JP5 are jet engine fuels. JP4 is 65 percent kerosene and 35 percent gasoline, while JP5 is kerosene. AVGAS is used to power piston engines, while jet fuel is used to to power jet engines.

Aircraft fuels may be classified under 4 general types:

■Aviation Gasoline [AVGAS] is a petroleum distillate with an approximate boiling range of 35�-165�C (95�-330�F). Gasoline type fuels are not used to any large extent in aircraft turbojet and turboprop engines because of poor lubricating properties as compared to kerosene type fuels and because of lead additives which have an adverse effect on aircraft turbine engines.
■Wide Cut Type (JP 4 and Jet B) fuels are mixtures of gasoline and kerosene distillate fractions with an approximate boiling range of 35�-315�C (95�-600�F). These jet fuels are called wide-cut because the kerosene is cut with gasoline. They are also called wide-range, because of the wide range of boiling temperatures. These distillate-type turbine fuels originated in the USA where readily available gasoline fractions were used to supplement the basic kerosene type of fuel.
■Kerosene Type (JP 8, Jet A 1, and Jet A) fuels are petroleum distillates with an approximate boiling range of 165�-290�C (330�-550�F). In Europe, gasoline was less available after World War II, so these kerosene-based jet fuels prevailed.
■High Flash Point Kerosene (JP 5) fuel has essentially the same characteristics as the kerosene type fuels, but with a minimum flash point of 60�C (140�F). This higher flash point fuel is used to some extent in Presidential Fleet aircraft and is required by the Navy for fire safety purposes aboard aircraft carriers.

All 4 types may be utilized in turbojet and turboprop engines with certain restrictions. Only aviation gasoline, because of its high volatility and minimum octane requirements, is suitable for use in reciprocating engines.

Aircraft using a lower than specified grade of AVGAS must be operated In Accordance With (IAW) the power schedule or operating limits as indicated in applicable flight manuals. Engines using a higher than specified grade of fuel may develop spark plug fouling and require increased maintenance. Refer to flight manuals for spark plug anti fouling procedures. Mixing different grades of AVGAS in aircraft tanks is permitted when necessary. The aircraft must be operated TAW limits established for the lower grade. Commercial Grade 100 (dyed green) or 100LL (low lead, dyed blue) may be used as an alternate when Grade 100/130 (dyed blue) is authorized .

By the way the Air Force has authorized the use of aviation fuel made from the FT process for use in US military aircraft and in the T2000 world there are operational plants using that process in South Africa. The Air Force is looking at a 50/50 blend of FT to regular JP fuels but a pure FT synthetic jet fuel is possible. Its not alcohol but instead of petroleum it would be coal or natural gas based for the FT process.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Good stuff, Olefin. Thanks for the info.

I really, really want to incorporate this into a maybe-someday T2k game...

[pmulcahy11b]

And don't forget the JP12 they made for use in the SR-71 (the SR-71 is the only plane that used it). Designed (along with the engines of the SR-71) to be very fuel efficient, to combust in very thin air once the engines were already started at a lower altitude -- and yet, you could throw a gas can full of flaming sterno into a tank of JP12 and the JP12 wouldn't burn.

[Grimace]

Yeah, they can fly with it, but for how long? 30 minutes before it burns through the fuel?

And how much work needs to be done on the engine to clean it AFTER it makes a flight?

[pmulcahy11b]

Of course, there is Aurora, which is believed to be fueled by an exotic fuels mix (I've heard everything from liquid hydrogen/LOX -- basically rocket fuel -- to things like a liquid methane/benzene/hydrazine mix (even with my poor understanding of chemistry, that doesn't make sense to me), to a new member of the JP family designed specifically for the pulse-detonation-wave engine the Aurora is supposedly powered by.

That's if you believe in that sort of deep black project. I like to keep my mind open.

[DocSavage45B10]

If one has a nuclear reacotor and a supply of coal or natural gas for feedstock...

Synthetic oil has an unfavorable ratio of energy in to energy out compared to conventional oil. As oil supplies dwindle in the real world, the market may become more favorable for synthetic oil. For now, though, the real reason to use synthetic oil is that you have coal but not enough oil to meet your needs.

[pmulcahy11b]

I can't see alcohol used in a jet engine for much more than spraying into the exhaust to provide extra thrust (especially if the aircraft is equipped with an afterburner).

[Webstral]

If one has a nuclear reacotor and a supply of coal or natural gas for feedstock...

Or if one has any source of non-fossil fuel electricity and a supply of coal, you can justify making synthetic oil. I honestly don't know if natural gas can somehow be tweaked into longer-chain hydrocarbons. However, surely it would be possible to create liquefied natural gas with a little pressure and use that for some or all vehicle applications.

The availability of coal, oil, and natural gas in Colorado, plus nuclear electrical generation, gives Milgov a lot of options. With three million people available in Colorado in early 2001 according to Howling Wilderness, I can't help but wonder if 6000 troops for 100th ID is a bit low. Of course, if they are overwhelmingly combat arms deriving their support from civilians who work full-time for the Army but who aren't counted because they aren't soldiers, then 6000 goes a lot further.

[manunancy]

Tehre are gaz-to-liquid methods floating around but there aren't in much use there because the relative prices of gaz and oil doesn't make them interesting.

[Legbreaker]

...I can't help but wonder if 6000 troops for 100th ID is a bit low. Of course, if they are overwhelmingly combat arms deriving their support from civilians who work full-time for the Army but who aren't counted because they aren't soldiers, then 6000 goes a lot further.

Except as shown in the "Inchon" thread, the numbers include all members of the formation, including support.

The big hurdle I see with synthetics isn't so much the power requirements, suitable feedstock or even availability of the necessary equipment, but the absolute NEED for suitably trained and skilled technicians and scientists to make it work. Post nuke a team like that would be near impossible to put together, especially when we know nobody is able to gather relatively common reactor techs or hydroelectric engineers to get existing facilities back up and running again.

[DocSavage45B10]

Except that doesn't make sense as anything but authorial fiat. There are a LOT of engineers, scientists, and nuke specialists in uniform and in associated civilian research programs tucked in out of the way places. Preserving these people will be priority for any military organization.

Except as shown in the "Inchon" thread, the numbers include all members of the formation, including support.

The big hurdle I see with synthetics isn't so much the power requirements, suitable feedstock or even availability of the necessary equipment, but the absolute NEED for suitably trained and skilled technicians and scientists to make it work. Post nuke a team like that would be near impossible to put together, especially when we know nobody is able to gather relatively common reactor techs or hydroelectric engineers to get existing facilities back up and running again.

[Legbreaker]

But finding them and getting them together in the places they're needed (possibly including their families) is another matter altogether.
Communications post nuke are almost non-existent and many of these experts are likely to have other things on their minds besides staying in touch with the authorities or making themselves available, regardless of whether they're in uniform or not.

[DocSavage45B10]

Except the exchange isn't a surprise, there's months of conventional war leading to tactical exchanges in theatre before the real smashing begins. It requires a willful blindness an a level that breaks suspension of disbelief to have DoD and civilian agencies twiddle their thumbs during this period.

[Legbreaker]

It's worth reading these too threads Doc if you haven't already, especially the first one...
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=3614
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=3130
The T2K world is an utterly different place to the world you and I know now, and apparently THE nightmare situation according to Panther Al's friend.

[Panther Al]

He is still right though Leg.

No one could have predicted the way the exchange worked out, and with the slow buildup towards it - tactical then strategic nukes over a few weeks - there would be plenty of reason to start getting your eggs out of breakable baskets.

[DocSavage45B10]

Nuclear reactors are extremely critical to any reconstruction effort. Without them you're stuck with an essentially 1800s tech base, since the chemicals for anything more advanced requires massive inputs of power to produce, and the reactors are extremely effecient in terms of man-hours per kilowatt, which is huge given conditions on the ground (more to do, less hands to do it, ie labor shortage). Hydro-electric can work as well, but there are fewer really big hydro plants than there are reactors.

What keeps more of them (reacotrs) from being brought back on line wouldn't be a lack of oeprators, but the requirement for a large body of troops to secure it, and the fields to feed everyone. Security is problem 1.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Here's a chilling fact about nuclear reactors - I got this from the "A World Without Us" series, so take it with a grain of salt (I'm not sure how true it is but if it's true then, as I said, chilling):

"Spent" nuclear fuel is put in a cooling pond in a building on the facility where it cools for a long period of time. The pond's water is circulated by a pump that draws power from the NPP.

As the grid fails (due to EMP, wild load spikes, etc.) assuming the operators die or are evacuated or so forth, the untended systems will eventually fail-safe to a low power state. The cooling pond pumps in the spent fuel storage facilities will switch over to generator power which will last days, possibly weeks.

When the pumps fail, the water over the spent fuel rods will begin to boil off very, very quickly.

Within a few weeks, every completely untended nuclear power plant will be experiencing a mini-Chernobyl as the containment buildings catch fire, various gases build up and explode, and so on. Very nasty stuff.

[Graebarde]

Here's a chilling fact about nuclear reactors - I got this from the "A World Without Us" series, so take it with a grain of salt (I'm not sure how true it is but if it's true then, as I said, chilling):

"Spent" nuclear fuel is put in a cooling pond in a building on the facility where it cools for a long period of time. The pond's water is circulated by a pump that draws power from the NPP.

As the grid fails (due to EMP, wild load spikes, etc.) assuming the operators die or are evacuated or so forth, the untended systems will eventually fail-safe to a low power state. The cooling pond pumps in the spent fuel storage facilities will switch over to generator power which will last days, possibly weeks.

When the pumps fail, the water over the spent fuel rods will begin to boil off very, very quickly.

Within a few weeks, every completely untended nuclear power plant will be experiencing a mini-Chernobyl as the containment buildings catch fire, various gases build up and explode, and so on. Very nasty stuff.

Just read where the Japanese plant that was damage so bad is likely to experience that. They are having loads of problems there that are not being generally reported.

[DocSavage45B10]

It would suck to be standing near such a fire, but the by products have very short half lives. The remaining sludge and ashes will be very toxic and 'hot' for a very long time, but people could live in the town of Chernobyl today if anyone cared to.

Yet more arguments for the pebble-bed design and allowing the operators to recycle their fuel.

Anyone know if civilian reactors can be rigged to run on their own power, or are they stuck living on the grid?

[Legbreaker]

One more point about the availability of technicians - if the CLS (Central Location System) operated by FEMA can't keep track of the presidential successors after the Secretary of Energy, what hope will the authorities have of keeping track of relatively insignificant techs?

[DocSavage45B10]

Because the military isn't run by idiots and they snapped them up and stashed them away in dispersed locations before the exchange? The military has dispersal plans for everything.

[Targan]

In my last campaign I had MILGOV forces in the CONUS regularly sequestering anyone deemed to have critical and rare technical skills, particularly folks like nuclear reactor techs (or even nuclear phycisist academics with only limited "hands on" experience with reactors), chemical engineers, radar and avionics techs, electronic engineers, the list goes on.

Having said that, when local commanders gathered up and protected such people they often weren't in a position to (or were unwilling to) send them to a central location or even to where they were most needed at any given time. With long-range communications so sporadic and the general slow erosion of MILGOV control in many areas it would be difficult for MILGOV's top commanders to keep an accurate list of all the specialist experts that regional commanders had managed to gather up.

It would be quite a difficult process to identify who was where and get the required people to where you needed them, particularly if you had to move them through areas not firmly under MILGOV's control. I guess my point is that I agree that the military would secure the experts it needed for projects like restarting nuclear reactors, but it would take some time to send out requests for info, send out the orders and move the human resources to the right places safely and securely.

[Legbreaker]

I guess my point is that I agree that the military would secure the experts it needed for projects like restarting nuclear reactors, but it would take some time to send out requests for info, send out the orders and move the human resources to the right places safely and securely.

That's it exactly. It's VERY unlikely to happen in the short term, but, with luck, it will eventually happen.
Just don't count on making much headway for the first few years of the 21st century.

[Olefin]

You can see this already happening in The Last Submarine Trilogy - i.e. the movement of personnel to get the reactor going in the Colorado Springs area was accomplished by MilGov and then they sent some of those personnel to help get the Corpus Christi back to operational status

One thing that the GDW designers ignored in many ways to get this country back on its feet was how much coal is available in the US - i.e. where is a big effort to get steam engines back up and running for transport or the use of coal to generate electricity? A lot of the Northeast still runs on coal powered stations as does West Virgina and other areas. And there are enough steam locomotives left in this country at various tourist railroads (almost none of which are near nuclear targets) to get transport going again.

And many engines at museums could be made operational again - when we did Allegheny Uprising we were transported to our start point by a steam engine that had been brought back into operation from the PA Railroad Museum, that had several 50 cals and two 105mm cannons installed on two armored gondola cars to defend it. (and did so when we ran into marauders near York)

They concentrate too much on alcohol and nuclear and sort of forget natural gas and coal which the US has in abundance. I.e. where is the effort to convert ships back to burning coal instead of oil? Alcohol is a terrible way to propel a ship but coal will work just fine.

[DocSavage45B10]

Good point about coal, and especially steam locomotives and ships, but I think folks are a mite sanguine about the feasability of large scale chemical synthesis without correspondingly large amounts of electricity. Smokeless powder, for instance, requires nitric and sulfuric acids, and is highly reactive in its intermediate stages before being 'washed' of excess acid.

Short-fiber cotton linter was boiled in a solution of sodium hydroxide to remove vegetable waxes, and then dried before conversion to nitrocellulose by mixing with concentrated nitric and sulfuric acids. Nitrocellulose still resembles fibrous cotton at this point in the manufacturing process, and was typically identified as pyrocellulose because it would spontaneously ignite in air until unreacted acid was removed. The term guncotton was also used; although some references identify guncotton as a more extensively nitrated and refined product used in torpedo and mine warheads prior to use of TNT.[38]

Unreacted acid was removed from pyrocellulose pulp by a multistage draining and water washing process similar to that used in paper mills during production of chemical woodpulp. Pressurized alcohol removed remaining water from drained pyrocellulose prior to mixing with ether and diphenylamine. The mixture was then fed through a press extruding a long turbular cord form to be cut into grains of the desired length.[39]

Alcohol and ether were then evaporated from "green" powder grains to a remaining solvent concentration between 3 percent for rifle powders and 7 percent for large artillery powder grains. Burning rate is inversely proportional to solvent concentration. Grains were coated with electrically conductive graphite to minimize generation of static electricity during subsequent blending. "Lots" containing more than ten tonnes of powder grains were mixed through a tower arrangement of blending hoppers to minimize ballistic differences. Each blended lot was then subjected to testing to determine the correct loading charge for the desired performance.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder>