Batteries?

[pmulcahy11b]

Something that just popped into my head (and probably all of yours at some point or another): batteries are going to become very valuable items in T2K. Most small batteries, even now (like flashlight batteries and suchlike) are not rechargeable. Even rechargeable batteries can only be recharged so many times -- and back in the late 90s, a lot of rechargeable batteries suffered from the "memory effect." Even vehicle batteries can be recharged only so many times.

I think batteries have been sorely neglected in T2K.

[Grimace]

Yes, neglected. But really, other than some radios and flashlights, what other things are you going to use batteries in that would be necessary and useful in T2K? I mean, it's not like you're going to be using a remote control for anything, and I-pods and cell phones will just be useless junk. Even cameras will be pretty useless unless you have either a working computer (digital cameras) or a dark room and all the chemicals (SLR film cameras).

So flashlights, maybe night vision goggles, your geiger counter and a radio would be all you would need batteries for. And how long do those things normally last compared to the battery life? I mean, you're more likely to drop or damage your NVGs before their battery life goes out. Maybe your flashlight would go through some batteries, but the rest would probably be on their only, or maybe second set of batteries before wear and tear made them inoperable anyway.

Vehicles, on the other hand, those batteries might be more of a challenge that might need to be addressed. Stray bullets, overuse, lack of use...they could all wear down the batteries and require replacements. That might be a challenge in the long run.

[Mohoender]

Good point.

I would expect these to become one of the main cottage industry. As I recall from high school and general memory making a battery is not that hard but it might be hazardous.

Nevertheless, I expect that you might make a new one from recycling an old one. That would be especially true as no one would really care about environmental problems. I'm not sure about this but I think that you can empty an old battery case, fill it again with lead or zinc, add acid and get a working one. Of course, you might lose some worker in the process but who cares as long as they are robotnikis or some sort of slaves.:D That is for vehicles anyway, for light or other things, it will be easier to fix some kind of generating tool such as the one you'll find on bycilcles or cars. Muscles remain the best generator to these days.

Just an idea, may be a foolish one.:o

[Raellus]

Are the batteries used in radios and NVGs rechargeable? My players have posted about recharging them and I didn't argue, assuming that they knew more than I about the subject. But tooling around online, I haven't found any indication that the batteries are rechargeable. Even if they are, they would require some sort of adapter, right?

I think it's time for the lights to start going out...

[chico20854]

AN/PVS-7b NVG's can use either specialized lithium batteries (which last a relatively long time) or standard AA's. During peacetime training AA's are supposed to be used.

Some radios (AN/PRC-127 walkie-talkies, for example) have adapters to allow them to use commercial batteries. They suck, however - really short battery life. The normal AN/PRC-127 batteries (and the ones in the Motorola Sabre radios that generally have replaced the AN/PRC-127 walkie-talkie) are rechargeable. As for the larger tactical ones in US service (PRC-77 and manpacked SINCGARS), I never saw rechargeable batteries or commercial battery adapters. Most of those radios in the units I was in were vehicle mounted in any case, and batteries were not an issue. (Although separate batteries were in some cases required for the COMSEC setting equipment).

[Raellus]

Thanks Chico. Can man-packed radios be "plugged in" to a vehicle and powered off its batteries when the radio batteries themselves die? Or, is it a one-or-the-other type deal?

[Marc]

Bon dia!

Talking in general terms, a lot of man-packed VHF radio devices can be transformed to its vehicular-mounted equivalent using the proper equipment, specifically designed to it. The radio transmitter/receiver would be the same in the man-packed and in the vehicular-mounted version. Basically, in the vehicular-mounted type, the battery is removed and the radio-transmitter is plugged in to a framework that usually includes a signal amplifier, the connectors required to power the equipment and the connectors that allow the use of the vehicular antenna. All the process can be completed in less than five minutes, if the framework is previously installed to the vehicle.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Remember guys as long as the voltage and AMperage is the same as the standard battery why could you not make a battery to work with those radios?

Rechargeable batteries are pretty good these dyas so I can see a GOOD battery pack lasting a long time. I think memory is no longer a real issue with rechargeables.

[Graebarde]

Things to consider, which are often not, when talking about batteries is the weather. Heat and cold are enemies of batteries. Both will kill them in very short order, as will neglect.

Yes batteries can be rebuilt/recycled. It probably can be done in a 'cottage' industry and with due care done safely, though perhaps not the EPA standards. Some one with chemistry skills and mechanical knowledge should be able to set up the operation I would think. My chemistry is not that good RL, but the theory is relatively simple.

A thing to consider when talking recharging batteries is you will NEVER get 100% recharge. Each time a battery is in discharge, it reduces the overall effectivness of the battery. Automotive suffer the worst when discharged/recharged as they loose lead from the plates, which ultimately result in the lead buliding up in the bottom and shorting the battery out over time. Recharging you will loose about 3-5% each time. So the first recharge the battery is 95-97% of the new battery. Assume the battery only looses 3% each time. The first recharge, as stated is 97%, the next one is 94%, the next is 91%, etc. When a battery is below 80% in the automotive industry it is considered discharged, and in many cases will not serve as needed in the vehicle, especially in the cold. Marine deep cycle batteries stand up to the recharge much better because they have more lead in the battery (compare the weight of the deep cycle to the standard auto battery and feel the weight difference). Deep cycle battery service should include a periodic full discharge of the battery and slow-trickle recharge (which can take up to 24 hours).

I'm not sure about dry-cells, such as your radio batteries. However the AA that I have recharged still only lasted a few (ten or less) recharges. Perhaps it was something I did wrong, or just my luck. In game however I allow recharge of the small batteries as well as for the pack radios, thinking the technology is available and perhaps the goverment would get smart, (not probable but possible) and use rechargeables. Even if they too wear out, I think in the long run they would be more economical and would help with the logistical headaches of millions of thow-a-way batteries. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Grae

[Marc]

Remember guys as long as the voltage and AMperage is the same as the standard battery why could you not make a battery to work with those radios?


You're right. I would let a group of characters with levels high enough in scrounging an electronics to try the recharging process using scavenged materials. Lucky military groups could keep in their power old batteries rechargers for an specific radio battery type. These rechargers are able to recharge simultaneously a variable number of batteries of the same type from the normal electrical pre-war supply. Of course, in T2K this electrical supply must be obtained from a normal electrical generator. But a power generator is a common device in the military, specially when talking about a units like Signals o Engineer Company. It's possible that the rated voltage output of an electrical generator differs from one nation to another. But this can be arranged with an electrical transformer (that can be implemented, if needed, using retrieved materials from electrical drives, etc. Again, scrounging and electronics would probe priceless skills).

Anyway, Graebarde is right and ultimately, chemistry will be the only response to the lost of effectiveness of a battery.

Ah! And if anyone has ever used a manual battery recharger (there are radio devices with such a complement, with a crank attached to it), perhaps has tested in a physical way the decaying rate of an old battery. When battery is low you need much more arm exercise to obtain (or to keep) enough power to operate with and old battery than with new one!

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Things to consider, which are often not, when talking about batteries is the weather. Heat and cold are enemies of batteries. Both will kill them in very short order, as will neglect.

Yes batteries can be rebuilt/recycled. It probably can be done in a 'cottage' industry and with due care done safely, though perhaps not the EPA standards. Some one with chemistry skills and mechanical knowledge should be able to set up the operation I would think. My chemistry is not that good RL, but the theory is relatively simple.

A thing to consider when talking recharging batteries is you will NEVER get 100% recharge. Each time a battery is in discharge, it reduces the overall effectivness of the battery. Automotive suffer the worst when discharged/recharged as they loose lead from the plates, which ultimately result in the lead buliding up in the bottom and shorting the battery out over time. Recharging you will loose about 3-5% each time. So the first recharge the battery is 95-97% of the new battery. Assume the battery only looses 3% each time. The first recharge, as stated is 97%, the next one is 94%, the next is 91%, etc. When a battery is below 80% in the automotive industry it is considered discharged, and in many cases will not serve as needed in the vehicle, especially in the cold. Marine deep cycle batteries stand up to the recharge much better because they have more lead in the battery (compare the weight of the deep cycle to the standard auto battery and feel the weight difference). Deep cycle battery service should include a periodic full discharge of the battery and slow-trickle recharge (which can take up to 24 hours).

I'm not sure about dry-cells, such as your radio batteries. However the AA that I have recharged still only lasted a few (ten or less) recharges. Perhaps it was something I did wrong, or just my luck. In game however I allow recharge of the small batteries as well as for the pack radios, thinking the technology is available and perhaps the goverment would get smart, (not probable but possible) and use rechargeables. Even if they too wear out, I think in the long run they would be more economical and would help with the logistical headaches of millions of thow-a-way batteries. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Grae

I know at the auto parts store I work at, we send the batteries for recycling, I thin k there are local places here in Pittsburgh that do that along with other cities so I'm sure once somebody establishes some order, that will be a booming industry. I had to drop a new battery in my car, my old one put out 10.2 volts but when down to 6.4 under load. If a battery goes under 9.6 volts under a heavy load, we consider it dead. BTW, there are also dry cell auto batteries too, our Optima series, a lot of racers, emergency personell and RVers use them since they power a lot of electrical equipment like radios and other stuff with them, they hold up longer.

Chuck M.

[Badbru]

Depending on which timeline/setting you're useing you'd best not forget that France, Spain, Portugal, Sweden etc, all advanced western countries, were not seriously disrupted during the twilight war. I'm certain France poduces batteries and maybe some others too. There will still be trade either official and sanctioned or Black market. If you can get batteries in Afganistan today you'll more than likely be able to get them in Poland T2k. It'll just be a matter of how many and how much can you pay.

[headquarters]

many military radios use special batteries that are not commonly available -

I never saw a civilian version of the brick sized battery for th ean-prc -1077 or the -77 for that matter ( bloody heavy thing).

I am guessing that comms pretty soon would need to be a patch work of scavenged parts ,batteries and mostly civillian radios that can use batteries that are more common.

Rechargeable batteries exist of course ,but they will wear out or be ruined eventually.

As for sweden trading with poland after TDM - they have 8 million people and a partially arctic climate .Its all you can do to feed and keep them warm and pretty much nothing else as I see it .

[Raellus]

Did anyone see Book of Eli? The Denzel character had some sort of battery to power his iPod. He took it to a tinker in baddy town to recharge. What was going on there? Acid refill? I didn't get it.

So, if most battery production ceased in '97, by 2000, even rechargeables would be dying off at quite a clip. That's 2+ years ofbattlefield/outdoors-type use. Methinks most batteries would be failing fast.

And with batteries, it seems like if you use them a bit and leave them in a device, they run out a lot faster than if you leave them in the package, completely unused. In other words, you put a couple AAs in your walkman, listen to the radio for 5 minutes, and then forget about it for a couple of months. Next time you use it, the batteries are almost dead. On the other hand, you leave the AAs in a package for years, they may still be fresh when you need 'em. Sound about right to you?

[Dogger]

I agree that by 2000/2001 Duracell type batteries would be a thing of the past...and as has already been mentioned the rechargeable batteries of the day ('95 - '97) were not all that long lived and for most common people even having the ability to recharge them would be nill.

In the short term I can see there was probably a flourishing trade market in batteries after the nukes started falling.

If sticking to the v.1 timeline it makes you wonder how many technologies never really got off the ground...personal computers & cell phones were nothing like they are now and not even as prevalent in everyday society as now. (For myself I didn't have either a cell or PC until around '97.)

I've always assumed that not much in the way of new tech or technological advancement would be showing up in the world in general for quite a few years after the war petered out.

[Legbreaker]

I don't see a lot of difference between V1.0 and 2.0/2.2, but it is amazing how many people seem to think tech of today, or even 5-10 years ago, should have been available in T2K. In my view development on the whole ceased stone cold dead around 1997. There's sure to have been the oddd exceptions and some more consumer type tech might not have progressed past 1995-96, but mid 1997 is a good rule of thumb in my book.

[kato13]

I don't see a lot of difference between V1.0 and 2.0/2.2, but it is amazing how many people seem to think todays tech of today, or even 5-10 years ago, should have been available in T2K. In my view development on the whole ceased stone cold dead around 1997. There's sure to have been the oddd exceptions and some more consumer type tech might not have progressed past 1995-96, but mid 1997 is a good rule of thumb in my book.

While I try not to advance technology beyond 1996 (2001 for military wares) or so I do think the game designers under estimated the technological advancement which would take place in the civilian market in the 13 years between 1984 and 1997. For example I don't think they expected over 600 million personal computers to be in use in 1997. To quote "Free City of Krakow"
Among the casualties of the war were hundreds of thousands of microcomputers

That means 599 million are left ;)

[Legbreaker]

Very true. But it's the same with most tech really. Think back ten years ago and try to remember how many flat screen TVs were out there and how much they cost to buy. You basically had to have a second mortgage to afford one and even then they were big and bulky things that tended to be in for repairs more often than working.
Now you can't buy anything but flatscreens - believe me, I've tried about 2 years ago to replace a unit in a building I manage.

Who could have said that would be the market penetration even just 5-6 years ago!? All in all I think the designers did about as well as could be expected predicting the future of tech at the time. It's not like they were Futurists is it. (Yes, that is an actual profession!)

[Dog 6]

"That means 599 million are left " WooT

[Cdnwolf]

No Batteries? You mean I have to blow up my rubber doll manually???

(I sit it next to me in the Hummer and put General stars on its flak helmet... amazing how many times its been shot at and not me!!)

[Mahatatain]

A point to add into this discussion:

Would places like France that were less damaged by the war have become a source of batteries and other tech gear? I have no idea whether France actually manufacture their own batteries at present but I would imagine that as the rest of the world is collapsing due to the war that they would ensure that they could manufacture key pieces of technology like this as they have retained much of their industrial capacity.

I mention France because I'm playing a French character in Raellus' online game but the same may also be true of places like Australia and New Zealand who've suffered less from the effects of the war.

What do people think?

[kato13]

Would places like France that were less damaged by the war have become a source of batteries and other tech gear? I have no idea whether France actually manufacture their own batteries at present but I would imagine that as the rest of the world is collapsing due to the war that they would ensure that they could manufacture key pieces of technology like this as they have retained much of their industrial capacity.


I found a summary of a Marketing Report on batteries (Report itself is $$$) which lists the following countries in Europe as major battery suppliers. (Given the countries are not in alphabetical order I am assuming that it is by some sort of production ranking)

Primary
Germany
France
United Kingdom
Italy
Spain
Secondary
Netherlands
Belgium
Sweden
Austria
Switzerland

Raw materials will be a problem but from my perspective France will be THE major source of batteries in Europe post TDM. Spain, Switzerland, and Sweden would be potential sources.

[waiting4something]

I found a summary of a Marketing Report on batteries (Report itself is $$$) which lists the following countries in Europe as major battery suppliers. (Given the countries are not in alphabetical order I am assuming that it is by some sort of production ranking)

Primary
Germany
France
United Kingdom
Italy
Spain
Secondary
Netherlands
Belgium
Sweden
Austria
Switzerland

Raw materials will be a problem but from my perspective France will be THE major source of batteries in Europe post TDM. Spain, Switzerland, and Sweden would be potential sources.

Wouldn't all these battery factories be looted and horded by the authorities? I guess that would make a good Twilight mission- stealing batteries out of government warehouses.

[Mahatatain]

The whole concept of stealing/smuggling valuable cargo from somewhere like France is an interesting idea for a scenario I think and had also occurred to me!

[Nowhere Man 1966]

While I try not to advance technology beyond 1996 (2001 for military wares) or so I do think the game designers under estimated the technological advancement which would take place in the civilian market in the 13 years between 1984 and 1997. For example I don't think they expected over 600 million personal computers to be in use in 1997. To quote "Free City of Krakow"


That means 599 million are left ;)

come to think of it, if computers did follow the same route generally in the Twilight line as they did in true life, the highest tech computer would be like a Pentium II.

Chuck

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Very true. But it's the same with most tech really. Think back ten years ago and try to remember how many flat screen TVs were out there and how much they cost to buy. You basically had to have a second mortgage to afford one and even then they were big and bulky things that tended to be in for repairs more often than working.
Now you can't buy anything but flatscreens - believe me, I've tried about 2 years ago to replace a unit in a building I manage.

Who could have said that would be the market penetration even just 5-6 years ago!? All in all I think the designers did about as well as could be expected predicting the future of tech at the time. It's not like they were Futurists is it. (Yes, that is an actual profession!)

IIRC, most flatscreens, well, LCD types, were mainlt used in handheld portable TV's 10 years ago and even as early as the 1980's for that. BTW, our main TV in the house, we bought it early in 1983, it is a 1982 Zenith. It has been in daily use for 27 years and still going. I just hooked a Blu-Ray player to the old Zenith. It is kind of weird that I'm still using the same TV now as I did when I was a sophomore in high school when the "A-Team" first came on. To keep it Twilight related, I remember watching "The Day After" on it.

Chuck

[Nowhere Man 1966]

I remember reading an old 1950's era book on electronics where they had an article on recycling one of the old beer can sized batteries they had in those days. It was able to be done at home with common chemicals and if a kid did it, under adult supervision.

Chuck

[pmulcahy11b]

IIRC, most flatscreens, well, LCD types, were mainlt used in handheld portable TV's 10 years ago and even as early as the 1980's for that. BTW, our main TV in the house, we bought it early in 1983, it is a 1982 Zenith. It has been in daily use for 27 years and still going. I just hooked a Blu-Ray player to the old Zenith. It is kind of weird that I'm still using the same TV now as I did when I was a sophomore in high school when the "A-Team" first came on. To keep it Twilight related, I remember watching "The Day After" on it.

Chuck

Wow! The only stuff I still have that old are some cassettes (long-since ripped to MP3) and books! Though I am am still watching a CRT-type TV -- it still works.

[B.T.]

Now, this question may seem dumb, but I'm really not shure:

Are batteries produced according to some kind of international standard? Reason for asking: Do Soviet forces (or any other WarPac armies) use the same kind of batteries as Western militaries? During my last FtF-session the characters looted some Polish radios. No one of us was really shure, if those radios may be equipped with batteries the PCs have in their belongings.

[HorseSoldier]

This PDF (http://www.cnlumos.com/lumos/Battery%20Knowledge/Size%20Chart%20of%20Common%20Consumer%20Batteries. pdf) lists info on common battery types, with several of them including Soviet designations among other names for the type. It looks like common stuff like AA, 9 volt, and similar types had Soviet counterparts. Batteries for specialized military equipment aren't discussed, but I'm pretty sure there would be no interoperability across NATO/Warsaw Pact lines with that sort of stuff, unless the items used standard battery types like AA batteries for US NODS.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I just kind of handwave the battery issue. As alternative vehicle fuels were found, post '97 the home-grown battery business found equal purchase. Hollow out a battery, put new chemicals/metals back in (scavenged from elsewhere), et voila.

Maybe that's not how it works in real life...but, hell, by canon a limited nuclear exchange somehow involved countervalue strikes and didn't escalate to the "5000 warheads over the 'Pole" nightmare it should've!

Also: re laptops...when I came on board at my company's IT department in 2000, we had piles and piles and piles of '486 and Pentium I laptops from '94-'96 and were starting to phase out low-end (233-266mhz) Pentium IIs for 333-400mhz Pentium IIs.

Thing is, part of the IT boom (consumer and professional) from '90 onward was predicated on a lot of technologies being freed up from wartime restrictions (and we were on a war footing from '45 onward, trust me). Without the fall of the USSR, I wonder if that pace of development wouldn't have been much, much slower. I mean, sure, more computers in more homes still, but perhaps as much as an order of magnitude fewer - maybe 10-20 million in the US, with 9-10 million utterly destroyed by EMP etc., and the rest either forgotten/waiting to be recovered "someday" or squarely in the hands of MilGov, CivGov or New America.

Phew, sorry for rambling.

Anyway! Batteries! Yes, batteries IMC are manufactured much like ammo and so forth - it can be done locally without too much effort.

[bobcat]

i know that for US Radios there have been rechargeable batteries since around the first gulf war. and are among the more highly used batteries in the military as they reduce training costs as well as the number of logpacs needed during combat. most combat units have chargers for radio batteries pushed down to platoon level (mounted in vehicles) and non combat units tend to keep them at company level.

in addition there are adapters to use commercial batteries for SINCGARS, PRC77 and even PRC25 radios. http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html
has several of these adapters.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Something just occurred to me...do aircraft have batteries? Helos or fixed wing...there'd be a source of spares right there. I mean, for vehicles, anyway.

Plus as the number of operable vehicles dwindles, units will scavenge what they can from the hangar queens and thousands (millions!) of abandoned civilian vehicles...

[pmulcahy11b]

Something just occurred to me...do aircraft have batteries? Helos or fixed wing...there'd be a source of spares right there. I mean, for vehicles, anyway.

Plus as the number of operable vehicles dwindles, units will scavenge what they can from the hangar queens and thousands (millions!) of abandoned civilian vehicles...

I don't know about jets, but I'd bet that most of don't -- most jets require power from an external APU on a cart or small vehicle to start their engines. A lot of helicopters do have batteries -- and they're huge (a Black Hawk's batteries weigh about 70 pounds apiece, and I believe that the Black Hawk uses two of them).

Fixed-wing propeller-driven aircraft sometimes have batteries and sometimes not. Have you ever seen footage of ground crews for World War 2 bombers turning the propellers by hand? They're sort of "winding up" the engines -- developing a charge in a part of the engines (I think it's a capacitor, but don't quote me on that). Smaller prop-driven aircraft are more likely to have their own batteries, and I'll bet they're pretty hefty too. A turboprop is most likely like a jet -- it would probably require external power to start.

[Snake Eyes]

Saw a link to this today in an article on the Sandy cleanup.

http://www.biolitestove.com/

It's a wood-fired camp stove that also (re)charges electronics. A cool idea for the MacGyver on your team. Instead of finding newer sources of batteries, I expect more effort will go into finding new and creative ways to charge the ones you've got.

[Graebarde]

Fixed-wing propeller-driven aircraft sometimes have batteries and sometimes not. Have you ever seen footage of ground crews for World War 2 bombers turning the propellers by hand? They're sort of "winding up" the engines -- developing a charge in a part of the engines (I think it's a capacitor, but don't quote me on that).

Actually I won't. Those engines getting props rotated were on radial engines. When the engine was idle (not running) lube oil settled in the lower cylinders. The purpose of rotating the props was to (1) get rid of some of the built up oil in the lower cylinder, and (2) lube the upper cylinders. IIRC they had electric starters, so I would imagine they had some sort of battery, thought it might have been provided by a ground unit (apu).

During this period they did not have the 'sophisticated' batteries of today. I don't know that they were sealed at all, so aerobatics would be a problem with an acid filled battery. The Optima gel cell that was menitoned elsewhere only came into being in the late 90's IIRC, at least on the open market.

[bobcat]

also the batteries in most military vehicles can be renewed chemically. the reason this doesn't usually happen in garrison is because most motor pools don't normally keep those chemicals on hand. i'd imagine with war breaking out on several fronts the chemicals would get pushed down to the battalion motor pools though.

[Legbreaker]

I'd imagine both sides would try to stick with standard batteries as much as possible - always better to use the enemies supplies before your own.
On the other hand, more complex, militarily sensitive equipment may use unique power sources in an effort to reduce the ability of the enemy to use them (of course anyone with a bit more than basic electronics/electrical skill can get around this fairly easily).