Olefin's Twilight 2000 Universe thread

[Olefin]

Will be putting some things here as to how things differ from canon in my Twilight 2000 Universe as compared to canon. Remember this is strictly my opinion and also campaign experience and used for my campaign only and is presented here only for discussion and to represent one way the game could play out.

Have said before several times why I dont use Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped in my campaign because of why I dont feel the drought it presents is realistic - especially as both of them seem to show survivors of the 1997-98 events in the US not having much in the way of food in early 2001, even though they would have had to be planting and harvesting for several years already just to be alive to that point (canned food and harvest from 1997 time frame would have been gone by 1999 at the very latest so either a lot of agriculture is already going on or they would be dead before both modules even started) and unless you are a really bad farmer you should be able to stockpile some food - no farmer worth his salt has nothing left in reserve

However the other reason I dont do it is because the US military basically falls apart due to desertion and apathy in those modules, with only about 2000 or so men from the 43000 who returned to the States being used as reinforcements and the rest just "going over the fence" some night or being released from military service.

I dont see this as realistic for several reasons (oh by the way I talked to several active duty and retired military personnel, both enlisted and officer on this issue and this represents their inputs)

1) The US is still in a state of war with the Soviet Union and its allies and Mexico. That means that if you are in the military its for the duration. You would only be released if you were physically unable to do duty that could help the military.

2) The US itself is under military law, either CivGov or MilGov in nature. Again if you are in the military in that situation you are in it for the duration.

If you desert you get shot - period. if you try to desert you get shot - period.

3) The United States is under occupation in southern CA, AZ, NM and south and central Texas by foreign invaders as well as in Anchorage AK. The US military, whether under CivGov or MilGov, wouldnt be releasing soldiers until those invaders were driven off - period. Anyone who ordered US troops released while enemy forces were on US soil and thus weakened the ability of the US to drive them out would be seen as a traitor and again

you get shot - period

4) The United States, if you play New America or if you only have marauders in place, has many places either in a state of anarchy or outright rebellion against the central government, whether it be MilGov or CivGov in nature. Such a rebellion and anarchy would need to be put down - so again failure to send in military forces to put this down is treason in time of war and....

you get shot - period

5) While many units disintegrated during Going Home many others came home intact. Those units, with intact command structures and unit cohesion, would be sent out to either fight the Mexicans or the Soviets or New America.

they include

3rd US AD – 5000 men - pre- war regular division

28th ID – 1000 men - National Guard

4th US MD – 1000 men- pre- war regular division

1st US AD – 4000 men - pre-war regular division

3rd US MD – 5000 men - pre-war regular division

6th US ID – 2000 men - pre-war regular division

38th US ID – 4000 men - National Guard

278th US ACR – 400 men - pre-war regular ACR

thats 22,400 men in organized units with their officer, NCO and unit cohesion intact - seven divisions and one ACR and two intact Army HQ orgs to command them (of which only two are Guard units)

even if you say the Guard units would desert that still leaves 17,400 men in regular units

Thats the kind of force that takes back Texas from the Mexicans and drives them out of Los Angeles and San Diego and makes short work of the New Americans in the Ozarks.

6) This isnt Vietnam and these men arent draftees. Most of them would be regular volunteer military who would be very patriotic and very much for defending their nation no matter what. Those men would never abandon their units and their country and let foreign troops remain in control of US soil while they still lived.

And there is no way that 22,000 men all die in "shipping accidents" or are "too wounded to be able to serve"

And thats just the intact units - I didnt include the ones that broke up into mobs because those units are the ones that wouldnt be ready to be put into the fight as soon as they got home. But the others would.

7) The US is still engaged in a hot war with the Soviets in the Middle East, one that they just sent 6000 men to. So more men could be sent there too - and again deserting a unit being sent overseas is desertion in time of war and ...

you get shot

8) CivGov still has an intact army in Europe - one that needs reinforcements. So any men who defect to CivGov could be sent to Europe. Oh you dont want to go? See above.

Now remember this is in my universe only and is not in any way an attempt to challenge the overall canon of Twilight 2000. However it is based on what the US military became by 1996 in reality which apparently is not what the authors based their US military on - which appears more to resemble a draftee army in how it is handled, at least in my opinion. Note I said in my opinion only.

Not all modules or sourcebooks are used after all by all GM's or referees and everyone's campaign universe is free to diverge as they see fit (as ours did by our own actions which made several modules moot by what we did during it)

And I didnt say they stay together forever - frankly once the last Mexican soldier is back across the Rio Grande I can see them saying ok now can we go home? But not before.

Oh and for the record - I dont apply these remarks to the light divisions that basically did get drafted in 1997 and 1998. They would have small cadres of professional soldiers and draftees and reservists to round them out. Those units could have large scale desertions as could the National Guard units as well in some cases (but remember these weekend warriors are now experienced combat vets). But not the regular military units.

Again my two cents on how my campaign universe differs from canon.

[Olefin]

And again let me say for the record that this is only about my campaign and how I have both played it and ran it and how I would be writing for anything I would put up here as to a sourcebook or module for people to use as they please or ignore if they are not pleased.

but in no way am I implying that this is any more right or wrong than the canon itself or any one's particular campaign or interpretation of the canon

and I am in no way, shape or form trying to pick any kind of argument - just presenting how things are different in my T2000U versus others for information only and hopefully good informed debate and discussion as is the heart of any good forum

[James Langham]

Logical points, I actually agree with many of the points.

My major divergence is that you are assuming the Army is regular (nice distinction on the later units), I instituted the draft early in the war (with a VERY abbreviated training regime). This radically changes the character of the Army.

A few other observations for discussion:

* what percentage of the returning bodies are actually non-combatants, probably not that high but that will reduce the figures a little?

* is there enough of a logistics base to support the new units? In your version probably there is. In mine probably not.

* could troops returning home be thinking, "that's it now, I've done my share." From memory the Texas module implies they don't know what is going on there. Finding that out when they get back might make a difference but I guess that combat weariness and the thought of being the last US soldier to die might not do much for morale...

[Greylond]

Good thread. None of the campaigns that I GM'ed or played in years ago lasted very long in the USA. We always started with Kalisz and usually went a different direction from there. I think only twice we went to Krakow. My longest run campaign had the PCs make it back to the USA by recovered/repaired AN-12 that crashed over northern Virginia. That group went to Armies of the Night and we didn't do much with it after that. Although I read through Going Home, I never GM'ed or played in it. Most of the time our groups ended up staying in Europe. IIRC,

However, I did notice that, IMO, the quality of the research and writing of the modules went down a bit after Armies of the Night. Things like the OP says about releasing/discharging members of the military and some technical issues.

[Olefin]

"My longest run campaign had the PCs make it back to the USA by recovered/repaired AN-12 that crashed over northern Virginia. "

I like that Greylond - now that is an inventive way to get home!

[Greylond]

Yea, it would be a very long story. Summary, awesome scrounge rolls, 3 months repair/modification time, lots of battles. In the end a true heroic effort with an emergency parachute drop at the end. They did end up with a lot more equipment than your usual group, which was the justification for them being sent to NYC... ;)

Don't mean to threadjack you though...


Like I said before, most of the TW2K stuff was really good but once the published stuff got a campaign back to the USA, IMO, the research that was done and the technical aspects steadily got worse. Maps weren't as well done and a few other things.

[Olefin]

I agree with you on many of the US modules - Allegheny Uprising left a lot to be desired- I work in York and travel to Fayette County- and that module didnt do justice at all to the area.

And frankly some of the other details - like the total destruction of the US Navy supposedly between Satellite Down (nothing left on the Pacific Coast) and Last Submarine (only one USN sub left?) just showed a lack of understanding of the Russians capabilities versus the USN. Hurt badly - sure. Basically totally destroyed - sorry but that was one point where the game went off the tracks. Especially considering no Russian sub has ever tracked an Ohio at all - yet supposedly they are all gone, along with the Permits, Sturgeons and every Los Angeles but one? Just not going to happen.

The initial European modules were very good and really set a great tone for the game. But somewhere things went downhill - you can see in some of the later modules that they may not have had the time to really research them right and put the details into them and properly proof read them.

And frankly the whole idea of New America was offensive to me and the people I played with. I have read and heard about a lot of stuff from various militia organizations but nothing as warped as New America. Could there be a way out militia group that could have believed that in one isolated area? Sure.

But a mass of people all over the US - no that is just not possible. Not unless suddenly you have a huge outbreak of mental illness to make that many people believe that warped an idea as it was portrayed.

So breakaways from the US and areas in rebellion against the central government - sure. Heck I would totally expect that - but New America? No that I dont. So how does that carry over to my universe?

New America doesnt exist as a nationwide organization. What sprang up in the Ozarks and in Florida in my universe are seperate groups, with seperate agendas, but both in opposition to both MilGov and CivGov, with the Ozarks group being flavored with ties to white supremacy and the Klan and the Florida group being tied more to criminal families who joined together with militia groups to seize power.

[Greylond]

Yea, if I had GM'ed more of a USA campaign it would have been closer to what you discuss instead of TW2k V 1.0 Canon.

IMO, Satellite Down and the V2.0 rule book was proof enough that they didn't do hardly any research on the USN. Honestly, I couldn't believe the v2.0 USN Naval Enlisted Ranks...

[Olefin]

I completely agree - the last battle of the Virginia made no sense at all in terms of how it supposedly happened. You can see a real lack of naval operational knowledge throughout the books - the task force in the RDF is lacking a lot of ships.

For one two full marine divisions there and no operational LST's? Then how the heck did they do the landing in the summer of 2000? There are a lot of ships that obviously have to be there but no mention of them - otherwise the Marines wouldnt have been able to make an opposed landing with the one ship they mention.

But since Frank Frey forgot to detail both the Tudeh and the French Fleet that is there (he did correct the Tudeh in Kings Ransom at least) I just choose to add the proper number of ships there to support the reduced Marine divisions that are left for an opposed landing.

[RN7]

The initial European modules were very good and really set a great tone for the game. But somewhere things went downhill - you can see in some of the later modules that they may not have had the time to really research them right and put the details into them and properly proof read them.


I think you have it in a nutshell here Olefin. The concept of T2k is very good and some of the meterial is also very good but its not consistantly good. Some might be happy with T2K canon and with what they read and want to go along with it, but for the sake of realism in some areas there just is not enough research.

[RN7]

And frankly some of the other details - like the total destruction of the US Navy supposedly between Satellite Down (nothing left on the Pacific Coast) and Last Submarine (only one USN sub left?) just showed a lack of understanding of the Russians capabilities versus the USN. Hurt badly - sure. Basically totally destroyed - sorry but that was one point where the game went off the tracks. Especially considering no Russian sub has ever tracked an Ohio at all - yet supposedly they are all gone, along with the Permits, Sturgeons and every Los Angeles but one? Just not going to happen.

Outside of the RDF Module there is nothing much about air or naval forces in the rest of the world, other than the US Navy having one nuclear submarine left and one destroyer leading the task force back to America in Going Home. Maybe the writers hadn't any real up-to-date data about air and naval force when T2K went to press in the pre-internet days, and a sweeping statement about the destruction of the US Navy and everyone elses navy solved that problem.

[RN7]

And frankly the whole idea of New America was offensive to me and the people I played with. I have read and heard about a lot of stuff from various militia organizations but nothing as warped as New America. Could there be a way out militia group that could have believed that in one isolated area? Sure. But a mass of people all over the US - no that is just not possible. Not unless suddenly you have a huge outbreak of mental illness to make that many people believe that warped an idea as it was portrayed. So breakaways from the US and areas in rebellion against the central government - sure. Heck I would totally expect that - but New America? No that I dont. So how does that carry over to my universe?

New America doesnt exist as a nationwide organization. What sprang up in the Ozarks and in Florida in my universe are seperate groups, with seperate agendas, but both in opposition to both MilGov and CivGov, with the Ozarks group being flavored with ties to white supremacy and the Klan and the Florida group being tied more to criminal families who joined together with militia groups to seize power.

New America seems very far fetched indeed. Right wing militias and white supremist warlords in rural areas are certainly believable, but a nationwide conspiracy emerging after the nuclear strike and taking power is just not that believable. Also the ethnic undesirable element is also very negelected in T2K outside of the Seminoles in Florida and something about pro-Mexican gangs in California and a black dominated super gang fighting the mayor in New York. In the Los Angeles module the gangs that appear are just hilariously bad.

[James Langham]

New America seems very far fetched indeed. Right wing militias and white supremist warlords in rural areas are certainly believable, but a nationwide conspiracy emerging after the nuclear strike and taking power is just not that believable. Also the ethnic undesirable element is also very negelected in T2K outside of the Seminoles in Florida and something about pro-Mexican gangs in California and a black dominated super gang fighting the mayor in New York. In the Los Angeles module the gangs that appear are just hilariously bad.

Depends how you view New America, if you see it as a group that pulls together elements already in place it seems more believable, the removal of Hughes seems to justify that view.

As to support, in the conditions in HW (I know that is contentious), how many people will just be concerned with surviving and worry about the morality later?

I like the idea of having a NA cell act sensibly and play down the ethnic part. How would the group react to a town where NA is in power but is the only reasonably civilized force in the area? Careful use of NA can give the group some tough moral choices.

[James Langham]

Also while many things in TW2000 are far fetched, let's consider the following from RL history:

* 1940 the Royal Navy issue and USE cutlasses in a boarding action in Norway.

* Syria sides with the US in 1990 over Kuwait and provides troops

* Israel supplied arms to Iran to use against Iraq

* Germany copies the Sten Gun in WW2 down to the British proof marks even though they have thousands of genuine versions and a production line of their own improved version

* The Crusaders reach the Holy Land and their first action is to attack their one Arab ally

* After World War Two the Soviets allow Austria to have democratic elections

* In 1982, the British sail half way around the world to take back a series of islands from Argentina

* After WW2 America cuts back it's army so badly that it does not have enough tanks to fight in Korea without pulling mothballed ones from storage

* The Soviets disguise their missiles on Cuba with a different type of tree than that grown on the island

* The Soviets shoot down KAL-007

* Matthias Rust flies a light aircraft to Red Square

* The Berlin Wall comes down without a war

If I wrote many of these into my alternative history I would be laughed at...

[Greylond]

The main problem that I have with NA is that it was supposedly a totally secret society that was totally unknown by the Federal Government.

The only other alternative is that it was a known cult, like Scientology or one of the other survivalist cults/groups known to have been popular in the '80s...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I could recast New America as a Florida-only force, with elements throughout the southeast, but nothing like the nation-spanning insurgent "government" that springs up in T2k.

I would rather say that NA is, as I mentioned, loose in FL but the rest of the groups are just as disorganized as anything else is in the states - white separatists through the west-northwest (Montana, Idaho), Amerind supremacists in the Dakotas and possibly Kansas, gangs in NYC and the ruins of LA, with small pockets of all of those types throughout the nation.

I'm not sure how badly damaged Clearwater is/was after the MacDill AFB groundburst but I could see ol' Dave Miscavige stuck in the Ft. Harrison Hotel, blaring out proclamations to the city over a PA system, the "church" capturing survivors, "auditing" them and immediately forcing them on the "RPF" to rebuild the Scientology compound and scavenge fuel for the generators, and eventually scrape enough together to gas up the Apollo so he and the rest of the SeaOrg can try to make it to South America or around the horn to the west coast to the survival bunkers they've dug all over Hemet, CA.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

On the almost total destruction of the USN, I will say this: thanks to the Walker's treachery, the Soviets knew dangerous amounts of stuff about our Navy. Had there been a non-Nuclear (well, not immediately nuclear) shooting war we'd have been in for some horrible surprises vis-a-vis their defenses versus our technology. It isn't that they were technologically superior: they weren't. It's just that they knew so much about ours thanks to those pigs that they could have really crippled us out of the gate. That's one thing that I think needs to be taken into consideration.

We just didn't know until the KGB threw open their archives how badly we'd been compromised.

[HorseSoldier]

Couple thoughts on the game setting and how it interacts with the real world.

1) Twilight 2000 is predicated on the idea that the Soviets/Warsaw Pact were every bit as bad a threat as we believed they were in the depths of the Reagan-era Cold War.

So on issues like whether or not the real world Soviet Navy ever tracked an Ohio class boomer -- irrelevant. Apparently in the T2K universe they could, just like USN intelligence and planners were terrified that they could if the balloon went up.

2) Same sort of thing with New America -- ultra-Right Wing politics and nuke war survivalism were both on the map, in terms of public perception, in the 1980s. "New America" is just GDW repackaging William Pierce (aka author of the Turner Diaries) and his National Alliance political party, with a lot more money and success appealing to people than it enjoyed in real life.

Plausible? In a universe where Mexico can pull of the logistics of power projection outside its own borders and the Soviets can somehow drive armor/mech units from Nome to Fairbanks in Alaska -- we're way through the looking glass.

Of course, for campaign play, it's all down to what appeals/makes sense to the gaming group.

The GDW Drought is another one of them -- honestly it works for me on the (pseudo) scientific side of things that popping a bunch of nukes could result in unexpected climate outcomes. On the other hand, I think it dramatically has some problems -- basically I think it has some unsatisfying storytelling elements to follow the narrative arc from being dumped in the middle of Europe post-WWIII nuke, struggling all the way back to the US of A, only to find out that things aren't just bad, but they're about to get annihilated to a whole new degree.

[Olefin]

My thoughts on what happened to the troops who came home from Omega in my campaign universe - which by the way is where any sourcebooks (like East Africa) or others things I do submit here will be set

Hope you enjoy

US Army Reorganization after Omega in Olefin’s Twilight 2000 Universe

MilGov began segregation of the units that reported for Omega in Bremerhaven and elsewhere in Europe (Great Britain, Norway, etc.) where the units reported.

In addition to Army units there were Air Force, USN and USMC personnel involved in the evacuation as well.

Upon arrival in Norfolk the units that had maintained their unit cohesion were reassembled and readied for deployment in the US. Non-US citizens who had joined these units were offered US citizenship if they stayed with the units and almost all of the men and women took the offer.

In addition to these troops several formations had arrived as mobs of men, with almost no unit cohesion. These personnel were offered a chance to join CENTCOM prior to embarking and some 5000 Army personnel plus another 500 US Air Force and USN personnel and 500 USMC personnel volunteered for duty with CENTCOM.

One unit, the 2nd Brigade of the 2nd Armored volunteered as a unit for duty in Kenya. The remaining US Army units that had arrived with no unit cohesion were disbanded and their personnel made available for reinforcement of the units that remained. These units that were disbanded included the 44th Armored Division, the 1st, 35th and 36th Mechanized Divisions, the 2nd ACR, and the 1st Cavalry Division.

Upon arrival at Norfolk all soldiers and officers were informed that the US was still in a state of war with foreign soldiers still on US soil and that until the state of war was lifted they were in it for the duration and that desertion during time of war was a capital crime. While some men were allowed to leave the military due to wounds or disability, they represented only a small fraction of those that returned.

The following forces were stood to on December 1, 2000 at Norfolk ready for re-assignment in the US:

7th Army HQ
1st Corps HQ
• 3rd Mechanized Division – 5000 men
• 6th Infantry Division – 2000 men
• 38th Infantry Division – 3500 men
• 278th Armored Cavalry Regiment – 400 men

V Corps HQ
• 3rd Armored Division – 5000 men
• 28th Infantry Division – 1000 men
• 4th Mechanized Division – 1000 men

Unattached units
• 1st Armored Division – 4000 men
• 43rd Infantry Division – 1000 men
• 5th Mechanized Division – 400 men (grouping of all known survivors that made it back to Bremerhaven in time)

Reinforcement Pool:
• 9000 personnel of the disbanded units

Equipment

The units were reissued their personal weapons that they had turned in at Bremerhaven. In addition they were issued 50 caliber MG, mortars, light anti-aircraft missiles and artillery pieces that had been installed on the ships as defensive weapons in order to avoid turning them in to the Germans as well as anti-tank missiles, mortars and other equipment that was at Norfolk.

MilGov had also managed to obtain some transport and light vehicles as well, mostly Hummers and various armored cars, to equip the units as well as a small amount of LAV-25 and M113 vehicles.

The only armor available was culled from a variety of sources including reconditioned museum pieces, repaired vehicles from a shipment of recovered vehicles that had arrived in early 1999 and never gone further south after that as well as a small shipment of armor that arrived in the late summer of 1999 that sat in the Norfolk area due to a lack of shipping and a need to use them for local area defense. In addition a few armored vehicles had been loaded onto one ship at Bremerhaven that arrived there in the late summer of 2000 with a final shipment of ammunition and spare parts from MilGov and had fuel for a return trip already.

The following were available to be issued:

• 4 M1Abrams
• 3 M1A1 Abrams
• 3 M1A2 Abrams
• 4 M60A4
• 12 M551 Sheridan
• 18 M48A5 Patton
• 6 LAV-75
• 4 Stingray
• 4 M47 Chaffee

A total of 58 tanks as well as 7 SPG and 6 Bradleys were available in total.

Plan – to use the evacuated 7th Army to attack into Texas and restore the US position there and drive the Mexicans and Soviets out of the country in concert with MilGov forces already there and resistance forces as well as destroy the Texian Legion. If successful, to then restore the areas in Arizona and New Mexico to US control and finally California.

[HorseSoldier]

I don't think MilGov circa 2000 has the logistical capabilities to redeploy everyone coming off the Going Home convoy to Mexico, nor to effectively re-equip them as a fighting force except on the most minimal levels.

It is, however, pretty silly to think MilGov's leadership is going to be in favor of just discharging all those personnel in another "good luck, you're on your own" moment. All I can see that really accomplishing would be to destroy any remaining semblance of order in the Virginia area as some portion of that force have to turn to banditry and marauding to keep themselves fed.

Of the guys who come back, some portion will want to do nothing but return to their homes and see if anyone is still alive. A lot of these guys, after surviving years of war in Europe, aren't going to be slowed down by MilGov trying to enforce a death penalty for desertion. And MilGov isn't going to be terribly well equipped to carry out those threats if a deserter(s) can get more than a few klicks outside the wire.

The more effective reason guys will stay with the colors and not just take off is that, after seeing that the US isn't any better off than Europe, they'll realize that getting home may simply not be plausible (or survivable). That may or may not translate into any enthusiasm for continued soldiering and active campaigning.

My take on the influx of personnel into Norfolk is that MilGov first sifts the returnees for useful skills relating to reconstruction and sustainment efforts. These guys get pulled as wartime essential by the government, but also get some perks to keep them from potentially taking their valuable skills elsewhere. Most of the remainder get converted into a modern day equivalent of the Roman limitanei, and get some version of 40 acres, a mule, and an M16EZ with a requirement to do part time military service and part time reconstruction duties. These guys are organized into company and battalion sized elements and seeded in the Virginia and North Carolina region to provide some backbone to the local militia.

Operating forward of the limitanei screen (and inside it as needed), MilGov re-establishes the 6th Special Forces Group as a counter-insurgency and foreign internal defense force. ODAs augmented with mechanics, experienced farmers and ag-science guys, veterinarians, and other not-your-normal-military-types work on drawing more outlying communities into the MilGov network by helping them with subsistence and recovery on the one hand and bandit suppression/stability operations on the other. When a given community is settled down enough, limitanei units are moved in and the SF/CA guys leapfrog forward.

The main limitation on how effective the SF teams can be is that they have very, very limited air support for either logistics or CAS. Consequently, teams that get too far out on the edge are pretty much on their own. To help address this on a semi-local level, 6th SFG maintains several mike force companies for QRF if an ODA camp gets in over its head.

If a threat is bigger than the limitanei or SF mike force units can deal with, MilGov does recruits for volunteers coming out of Europe to form a couple conventional infantry brigades (as well as volunteers for 6th SFG). These two brigades are not the usual T2K "brigade = 500 guys and a tank" but actual attempts to rebuild actual brigade combat teams to a (modified) prewar table of organization and equipment. There are limitations and modifications -- tube artillery is pretty scarce, so fire support is all mortars (surviving tube artillery being in a separate unit under direct control of the commander of the Norfolk enclave), the units are motorized for mobility, but a lot of that motorization are civilian vehicles that picked up a coat of green paint along the way, that sort of thing.

The overall objective is to get the area the Norfolk enclave can effectively control back online with agriculture and light industry to provide a food surplus and manufacturing base. Once they're able to do that, they start expanding -- direction of travel being either towards other MilGov enclaves or resources that are still intact or can be put back on line with the resources available. Situation permitting, other MilGov enclaves are doing the same oil spot trick and spreading out towards Norfolk and other enclaves as well, though the manpower available to Norfolk makes it the centerpiece of the plan.

[Olefin]

I see them as bringing them back for a military reason. They could have left them in Europe and have them continue to fight with the Soviets.

However the problem is that MilGov has Mexican and Soviet forces in control of a lot of the American Southwest. The forces they have there can hold them but cant take anything back. And there isnt anything left in the US to reinforce them.

So where can they get troops? Not from CENTCOM - whats there is needed there to keep what little oil they are getting from overseas going. And not from Kenya - the small forces there are needed to keep the refinery going that is essential for CENTCOM.

And Korea is a long way off plus there isnt that much there.

But Europe has a lot of trained troops - in fact most of what is left of the pre-war Army is there. And really they dont need the tanks that they brought to Europe.

Mexico doesnt have much in the way of AFV's left and the Soviets are out of fuel. So even if all they bring home is the men and some limited weapons its enough to be able to get the advantage they need to retake Texas and the Southwest.

As for logistics - you arent talkign about moving a huge army of tanks, APC's, etc.. - you are talking about moving 23,000 men at most and a very small assortment of vehicles - which can be done with a few coal fired ships or a few coal fired trains. And they would want to move them out of VA anyway - thats a lot of new mouths to feed in one area. But spread over northern Texas and Louisiana and Oklahoma - not as much.

it would be one thing if they had to move all the stuff of a modern army - but in reality what they are moving is mostly men - and a lot of the movement will be by shoe leather or horse drawn cart.

As opposed to those who wrote the game I dont see the US military as being dumb or foolish - you dont give up hundreds of tanks and armored vehicles for no good reason when you have no way to replace them for years if not decades. Let alone all the planes, helos, artillery pieces, etc.. they abandoned.


They brought them home to use them as soldiers to fight the war at home and win it. And that is how in my universe they were used.

[HorseSoldier]

To be fair, MilGov has a pages long list of problems, only one of which is Mexicans and a token Soviet force in Texas, California, New Mexico and Arizona. Whether the Mexicans and Soviets in the SW USA are the top of the list is debatable -- also whether it's one they can effectively influence with the tools available to them.

[Olefin]

if MilGov represents the US govt and they are supposed to defend against all enemies foreign or domestic then getting the Mexicans and Soviets out is definitely number one on their list (or at least shared with taking out New America)

and face it - without the oil from Texas they are screwed and they know it long term

And remember I dont recognize the uber drought from Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped - as far as I am concerned those modules dont exist except for the historical data up to Omega as that is what my GM came up with to try to keep the game going after he and the players generally were disgusted by the way Kidnapped and HW in his words "hijacked our Saturday afternoons and took them to Mad Max's Australia instead of to WWIII"

so the events of 2001 in HW and Kidnapped arent used by me in my GM universe - which from many of the posts I have read here is a relatively common occurence among a significant minority of the players and GM's here

and as a GM that is my right within the game to do that - remember this my thread about my particular campaign only - not about the canon- i.e. this is how my game as played by my GM diverged from canon and how I am taking up that mantle of what he did from here

in the canon the Mexicans held onto Texas for a hundred years and still have CA - but not in my GM universe - as you will see - but again that is only in Olefin's universe -

however I think I am making a pretty valid point that MilGov wouldnt have wasted the organized divisions that reported to Bremerhaven by just letting them mill around in Norfolk till they starved or deserted

and love the discussion Horse Soldier - you make some very good points and I look forward to more

[Olefin]

Olefin universe timeline thread

Late November 2000

A commando force of 24 men from the 5th Mech, consisting of the same men who obtained RESET for the US along with three Navy Seals, is embarked on the SSN Corpus Christi to find General Cumming’s granddaughter in Grenada.

The team, along with a small group of US soldiers on board a replica of the USS Constitution which arrived independently in the area around the same time, lands on Grenada and after a few days manages to make an alliance of convenience with a force of Cubans that landed there after the Christi sank their transport.

With them they manage to assault the pirate force on Carriacou and save most of the enslaved population there as well as the girl they came to save while capturing enough transport for the Cubans to go back home. They then come home with the girl and a very large amount of ammunition and weaponry captured from the pirates and from the hold of the half sunken Bulgarian freighter, enough that most of it is brought back to Norfolk by the Constitution. The new government of Grenada signs a friendship agreement with MilGov with the departure of the Cubans for home.

The team returns on December 9, 2000 with 500 AK-74 and M16 rifles, over 300,000 rounds of 5.54mm ammo, 7500 M16 loaded magazines, 40 PPK machine guns with 80,000 rounds, 40 RPG-16 grenade launchers, 200 rocket grenades, 6000 rounds of 9mm ammo, 35 M203 grenade launchers, 750 HE grenades, 4 81mm mortars, 200 81mm rounds, 15 M60 machine guns, 60 belts of M60 ammo, two 106mm recoilless rifles and 24 practice rounds recovered from the pirates and the Bulgarian ship, a priceless treasure trove for MilGov.

Besides the Constitution, three captured pirate schooners that the pirates were forcing the Grenadians to build also arrive back at Norfolk under the command of detachments of sailors from the Constitution, crewed by Grenadians who want to show their appreciation for their liberation. These four ships significantly increase the amount of sail transports available to the USN.

(Corpus Christi has no weapons on board and a non-functioning fire control system)

Dec 11, 2000

A DIA agent report is received at Norfolk detailing reports from the Brownsville area of a working refinery and oil platform that is about go online that potentially could produce as much as half a million gallons of refined petroleum products. MilGov immediately puts together the same team that went to Grenada, along with three Texan Omega evacuees, on the Corpus Christi and sends them to investigate. The 4th US Mechanized Division begins boarding two coal powered freighters at Norfolk while a coal powered car ferry is loaded with 4 M60A4's and 4 Bradleys and readied to sail for Texas.

Dec 14, 2000

The 4th MD sails for Texas escorted by a single Coast Guard vessel.

Dec 16, 2000

The 1st Army is reinforced with the 43rd Infantry Division (still in the Norfolk area) and some 800 replacements and one M60A4 tank being assigned to the 78th Light Infantry Division (transported to Fort Dix by sea).

[WallShadow]

Olefin:
You mentioned elsewhere that you were in close proximity to, if not actually working with the M88A2 Hercules ARV--that would be in Spring Grove, right? IIRC, United Defense -York was also dealing with the M109 SPH upgrades about that time. Following the TDM, what do you think of the probability of some UD employees and their families grabbing an M109, a couple of M88A2s and a couple of M992 Ammo Carriers (designed for use with the M109 and produced at UD-York IIRC), loading them up with whatever they could scrounge, and hauling ass westward? What with the confusion and heavy drain on manpower, would security be degraded enough at that point? I was thinking that the South Mountain Restoration Center would be a possible place to hold up--limited access by road, secluded on a hilltop in the midst of low mountains, surrounded by an insular population, and having a fairly extensive self-sufficient structure. However, I don't know what you'd do with all of the mentally-ill patients there.:confused:

[Olefin]

its a real possibility - in my timeline the military leaves a small guard force there to keep guard on the equipment there along with some of the employees and their families (we have a lot of ex-military here) who raise food within the security perimeter of the factory and keep an eye on it. They have a few vehicles that they use to keep the place secure and eventually MilGov, after Omega, puts the factory back into use as a depot to repair equipment and finish the assembly and reconditioning of as best as they can.

Considering the timing they were also switching work on Bradley's (both Reman and Reset) to that plant and would have been producing the M8 Armored Gun System (i.e. the Buford).

So you could add a Reset Bradley and a Buford as well to your mix - they wouldnt have had ammo for them (we dont keep ammo here) or 50 cal MG but otherwise they would be fully operational. So if your guys can find ammo they can use them for sure.

[HorseSoldier]

Running for the hills in AFVs isn't really ideal -- comparatively major fuel consumption and specialized maintenance requirements to start with, to say nothing of the likelihood of any military or law enforcement contact likely to become confrontational. A running five ton full of supplies is going to be more of a score, in terms of military vehicles, for refugees than an AFV until you start getting into situations where organized opposition requires serious firepower to get any maneuver room.

[Olefin]

All depends on how far you have to run with the AFV and what you may be defending with it. If its the last working oil or water well in the area you may have a lot of people who want what you want - and an AFV, even one that is basically stationary, is a heck of a deterrent if all they have is shotguns and civilian rifles.

[Olefin]

(This area of the timeline is how my GM and fellow players went thru Red Star, Lone Star and then back to Norfolk. Remember the Christi as my GM played it was still in USN hands as mentioned in Gateway to the Spanish Main. As you can see things began to change from canon with how he had the US Army reorganzie after Omega. The MilGov attack on the 228th was before he got his hands on any of the modules that had this unit in it and thus changed them significantly)

Dec 21, 2000
MilGov puts into effect a plan to evict CivGov from their enclave in the Fort Meade area. The soldiers of the 228th Infantry Brigade and the CivGov administrators at Fort Meade found themselves surrounded by the 3rd Mechanized and the 38th Infantry Division. The Brigade is ordered to stand down and surrender or face annihilation. Only one battalion resists and takes over 150 casualties from artillery and tank fire before it surrenders.

While its senior officers and NCO’s were arrested, the more junior ones and the troops were given a choice between prison and swearing loyalty to MilGov. Not surprisingly with very few exceptions they took the loyalty oath. The senior officers were tried and convicted of failing to heed a direct order to bring their brigade under MilGov control and subsequently executed on January 5, 2001. The brigade’s personnel were put into the general reinforcement pool and its units disbanded, with its weapons and equipment issued to loyal MilGov units.

The CivGov government officials at Fort Meade were arrested and sent to work camps in the Norfolk area. Interrogations of these officials revealed information about possible cache’s of supplies in western PA. With this action MilGov control expanded into Maryland.

Late Dec 2000 – early January 2001

The strike team arrives in the Corpus Christi area and meets up with the DIA agent. After debriefing the team stakes out the marauder base at Corpus Christi including getting two men inside by having them taken prisoner. A revolt among the prisoners is staged coinciding with an attack by the team which successfully overcomes the marauders leading to the capture of weapons and several functional vehicles including two M113APC’s, six jeeps, two HMMWV squad carriers and two trucks as well as the head of the marauders, Grady LaMarr.

Under interrogation he reveals the operation going on at Brownsville and at Gulf Forty. The team splits with the DIA agent and a small group going back to the Christi to get news of this to MilGov while the rest heads south using the captured transport going by way of Padre Island, joined by some 35 freed prisoners who agree to assist the team.

Overcoming resistance along the way the team arrives at Port Isabel and takes it from its marauder defenders, with the captured APC’s being a key reason for the victory. The team digs in and prepares to defend the area from marauders, turning back two probes and then a larger one from both land and sea that almost succeeds, with most of the freed prisoners who joined the force dying in the assault.

On the evening of the 2nd day they are reinforced by a force of 30 men from the 4th who tell them they have seized Gulf Forty and the rest of the division is arriving in 36 hours. Another enemy assault, this time with APC’s and trucks, is broken up using explosives, RPG’s and Molotov cocktails to knock out the vehicles as the team uses hard learned urban fighting skills from Europe against the mostly Novice attackers.

After hearing panicked reports from captured radios of Soviet forces attacking Brownsville the force in Port Isabel prepares an ambush for any Soviets attacking them, which occur within hours. The Soviet BTR-70’s are destroyed within seconds by RPG’s then the team plus its reinforcements and the two APCs’, now mounting HMG, engage and destroy the rest of the force.

The Soviets in Brownsville attack again but by then the 4th has landed and their vehicles are no match for the small force of M60 tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles. They dig into Highway 100 and all the approaches to Port Isabel. The seriously depleted team is sent back on the Christi to Norfolk as the rig begins to pump oil to the captured refinery.

January 9, 2001

The 85th Infantry Division is moved by ship to reinforce the 4th Mechanized Division at Port Isabel. With the Soviets having destroyed the Mexican and marauder forces in the area the US forces are able to occupy Brownsville with no resistance. At Norfolk a small task force of the John Hancock, another destroyer, two empty tankers and four Omega ships is put together to carry the 43rd Infantry Division along with 3 M1A1, 3 M48A5 and 2 Bradley AFV and 500 replacements to reinforce the bridgehead in Texas using almost all the remaining oil at Norfolk in the process.

January 16, 2001

Soviet Division Cuba and Brigada Tampica attempt to take Port Isabel, launching an assault with over 1500 men, 8 tanks and 12 APC’s. The desperate attack, having to go down a narrow neck of land, is stopped well short of the city as the tanks and APC’s, without room to maneuver, get chopped up by the US tanks and AFV’s. A tattered remnant of five tanks and APC’s and 400 men retreat to Harlingen and dig in. The MilGov forces lose less than 100 men in the attack.

January 20, 2001

Texas

The 43rd Infantry Division and the replacements arrive, bringing the 4th back up to 1000 men and the 85th to 500 men. They are reassigned to the CXXII U.S. Corps. Most of the native Mexican population of Brownsville has fled back in Mexico.

Pennsylvania

The 28th Infantry Division moves to the Shrewsbury, PA area and establishes a base camp in preparation for operations in PA.

(We used to get regular intelligence briefings from our GM as part of the game we were playing. Again these posts are from the notebooks he kept of our game and its progress.)

[Olefin]

January 19, 2001 to March 1, 2001 – Last Submarine in my campaign as a player

The strike force that had already seen action in Grenada and Texas was reinforced with men drawn from the 5th as well several USN members and dispatched on the Corpus Christi to obtain vitally needed spare parts and weapons to be able to restore her and several of her sister submarines to full operational status.

Over the next few weeks the force successfully raids the Weymouth Naval Station (under marauder control) as well as warehouses in Rhode Island under the control of Governor Britt and manages to obtain most of the needed spare parts. A total of twenty two Mk48 torpedoes and four fully functional Harpoon missiles are found between the two areas, as the Rhode Island Isolationists have what is left of the Newport Torpedo Station under their control and several weapons in their warehouses came from there. The parts to restore the Christi’s faulty fire control systems were also found as well.

In addition the team recovers information from files in Rhode Island of a biodiesel plant that has been put into operation on Cape Cod that is capable of producing enough biodiesel to keep several of Carlucci's ships operating on diesel instead of alcohol or sail.

During this period they also contact the 43rd Military Police Brigade, managing to barely escape with their lives when a mutiny by lower level officers and men loyal to John Carlucci kills the commander and much of his staff, bringing the Brigade under his control and ostensibly under CivGov as well. A small group of twenty two personnel remain loyal to MilGov and escape with the team.

The team learns, from information obtained during the raid on Britt’s warehouses that Carlucci has control over the SSN Newport News, presumed lost at sea but actually found beached on Cape Cod and abandoned by all but five of its crew. He has had it brought to Nantucket to be repaired by the UBF to be used by them (ostensibly under CivGov control) to dominate the East Coast. The submarine only lacked reactor technicians which were due to arrive soon from CivGov and repairs to be made to her diving tanks to allow her to submerge.

Using crewmen drawn from the Christi the Newport News is boarded and taken from Carlucci’s men and taken out of the harbor using the emergency diesel engine, which was fueled with biodiesel. During the escape, one of four operational torpedoes on board the submarine sinks the destroyer DD 793 Cassin Young, which was also at Nantucket being refitted by Carlucci’s men.

Using crewmen and experts from the Christi, the Newport News’s reactors were started and both submarines proceeded to Norfolk. Repairs on the Corpus Christi were started immediately as she was needed on an urgent mission. The information on the biodiesel plant is also passed on to MilGov.

Elsewhere

January 25, 2001

The 278th Armored Regiment, reinforced to 600 men and 4 M47 Chaffee tanks as well as a dozen HMMVW Fire Support vehicles and five converted civilian armored cars is sent to Memphis to assist the 197th Infantry Brigade in operations in Tennessee.

[dragoon500ly]

"The 278th Armored Regiment, reinforced to 600 men and 4 M47 Chaffee tanks as well as a dozen HMMVW Fire Support vehicles and five converted civilian armored cars is sent to Memphis to assist the 197th Infantry Brigade in operations in Tennessee."


Ouch...the M24 Chaffee was a late WWII/Korean War light tank, surprisingly there are still spare parts for these vehicles in various warehouses, these are intended to support various MAPs (mostly in South America and the Far East). There are 72 still housed (and I should know, I counted every one of them thangs in 2007!!!). The complete vehicles are slowly being stripped of parts and were heading for the smelters.

The M-47 Patton is also still in storage (some 300 in Italy per "Janes Military Balance") as well as in reserve with the Belgian Army (100), another 200 in the US (currently being expended as hard targets on various USAF and Army gunnery ranges).

[Olefin]

Having the US have to use the Chaffee shows just how little they still had left as to armor in late 2000. Basically they are scraping the underside of the bottom of the barrel. But against guys armed with hunting rifles and Chinese made AK's its a very effective weapon still.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Having the US have to use the Chaffee shows just how little they still had left as to armor in late 2000. Basically they are scraping the underside of the bottom of the barrel. But against guys armed with hunting rifles and Chinese made AK's its a very effective weapon still.

This got mentioned when I brought up the notion of M4 Sherman tanks being used here and there 'stateside. When all you have is as you say a shotgun or CV-16, anything the other side has with treads and armor is pretty scary.

[dragoon500ly]

Just because the hulls are available, doesn't mean that they are "runners". The M24/M47s haven't been operated since the late 1950s/early 1960s. They are slowly being stripped of parts and then sent to the smelters/gunnery ranges.

Outside of the military, there simply are not a lot of operational tanks (mostly in the hands of various reenactors or collectors) these vehicles are demilled, usually with the breechs being removed (or welded in place), the barrels having three holes drilled through (they can and are often plugged but only a fool would try to use the main gun). So you are left with a vehicle that might mount a machine gun or rifle. Still, as long as it runs, it will be a formidable vehicle.

The static display vehicles are normally stripped of anything usable and then demilled. They might be of use as pillboxes...or even as a bluff.

But then there is the flaw of tracked vehicles, they require an enormous logistical chain to keep them operational, POL-wise, the average tank gets really horrible mileage (along the lines of 1-3 gallons per mile), spare parts are also a problem, there is a reenactor in Jackson MS with a M-24, his tank has sit in his garage, lacking fuel pumps for its engine as well as a blown transmission. And as the years go by, parts are getting harder and harder to acquire, which means that you need some superb mechanics and a very well equipped workship to manufacture parts.

In a Twilight world, at least in the US, you are more likely to see bank armored cars, with jury-rigged mounts, or even gun trucks with "sandwich" armor.

[Olefin]

Thats why there are so few Chaffees available - i.e. they scrounged around for any armor that was still functional and put the best of the bunch into operation. In some cases they would have fabricated parts at machine shops from 40 and 50 year old drawings.

And they managed to get 4 Chaffees running and available. But four light tanks are better than using old armored cars. And they have those too - i.e. five converted civilian armored cars.

Glad to hear the comments - keep them coming!

[HorseSoldier]

Just because the hulls are available, doesn't mean that they are "runners". The M24/M47s haven't been operated since the late 1950s/early 1960s. They are slowly being stripped of parts and then sent to the smelters/gunnery ranges.

(snip)

In a Twilight world, at least in the US, you are more likely to see bank armored cars, with jury-rigged mounts, or even gun trucks with "sandwich" armor.

Agreed. Unless vintage armor was sitting in a consolidated storage facility with warehouses of spare parts on scene and warehouses of ammo for vintage weapons systems that have been out of the inventory for decades, getting old stuff into the fight is going to be impossible. Even if it makes it into the fight, attrition from maintenance is going to be brutal -- even with lots of spares, there aren't any mechanics and maintainers out there with specialized knowledge for what that particular vehicle needs. (Same applies with a lot of the aircraft out in the boneyard in the desert, only worse so with AFVs that haven't seen service since WW2 or Korea.)

Comparatively, at a big picture level, it would be easier to rebuild (and I mean rebuild, not just slap some field-ex armor on a truck) existing five ton truck chassis into armored cars and arm them with weapons in the inventory. Lower profile than the factory stock truck, with a simple (probably open top) turret armed with .50 cal, Mk-19, or maybe a big hitter with 60mm mortar and a coax MG. A space in the back for sustainment cargo or a fire team worth of guys, maybe with a roof hatch and a couple gun shields and MG mounts ACAV style. Armor rated to stop 7.62 AP covers most of your threats. End result is a light armored vehicle that is adequate for the threat environment found in most of CONUS.

Rather than single point production, which isn't possible, the proponent government (MilGov or CivGov) would have to look at distributing conversion plans and plans for fabricating specialized parts out to the various enclaves. How effectively they could make the program work would vary and I'm sure a lot of variation and modification would take place at the production end.

And that is product designed AFVs, which either side might or might not even bother with, but is an example of a much more workable system than trying to put WW2 vintage armor back in the fight. Complete agreement with dragon that most "AFVs" in America circa 2000 are going to be modified commercial armored cars and Mad Max'ed technicals.

[Olefin]

More timeline

Feb 1, 2001 - Iran

The last of the reinforcements from Europe have arrived and have been distributed among the divisions there. The convoys from Europe, protected by the French as part of their helping the US logistically and otherwise in the Middle East (so they can avoid having to fight the Russians themselves for the oil) have brought a total of 6000 men, 41 tanks, 48 Bradley AFV, 40 LAV-25’s and 60 M113 APC’s from Europe along with over a 120 HMMVW of various types. In addition some 30 105mm and 18 155mm artillery pieces, 10 M109 SPG’s and 30 various AA vehicles have also arrived. Over two dozen helos of various types and spare parts for them were also part of the convoys as well as ammunition to replenish the seriously depleted munitions stores of CENTCOM.

These stores and vehicles were considered separate from the deal made with the Germans for Omega as the fuel needed for the ships came from the French and not from the tanker found floating in the Baltic.

Some 600 men who arrived in early December have just graduated from parachute training, bringing the strength of the 82nd Airborne back up to 3600 men, and another 500 men and six M1A2 tanks are added to the 101st, bringing them up to 4500 men and 6 tanks. The remaining 900 men are put into a replacement pool, giving CENTCOM an operational reserve for the first time in years.

February 6, 2001

Pennsylvania

The 28th Infantry Division moves to the York PA area and makes contact with the York Garrison, a combination of local militia and a US Army battalion left there to safeguard the United Defence-BMY defence plant as well as the Caterpillar and Harley Davidson plants.

All three are still intact, lacking only electrical power to get them back into operation. There is considerable military material including vehicles either in process or in storage for reset or refit at the defence plant. A force of four M8 AGS, one M88A2, two M2 Bradleys, three M109A5 SPG and one FAASV are at the UD-BMY plant. The 28th incorporates a company of 100 men from the Garrison as well as one M109A5 and two AGS into its own force structure.

The reason for the survival of the York plant is found a kilometer away by scouts using rad detectors... a crater surrounded by the still very radioactive debris of a 50kt nuclear warhead that didn’t detonate due to a faulty fuse, leaving the plant intact and very useable.

Texas

The Mexicans make another attempt to get the refinery. A combined attack by the Brigada San Luis Potosi and the remnants of Brigada Tampica on Port Isabel is stopped dead as the two USN destroyers, now fully refueled, use naval gunfire to help break up the attack down the narrow peninsula. A US counterattack hits the disorganized Mexicans and shatters both brigades for good. The US forces include a contingent of 60 South Texas Grange members who arrived by boat a week earlier.

February 12, 2001

Outside Batesville AK a patrol is attacked by what the lone survivor identifies as a Goodyear Blimp. Two platoons of the 197th are assembled to find out what is going on.

At Norfolk, the 1st Armored Division is being prepared to be shipped to Texas, with 4 M1 Abrams, 3 M48A5, 4 Stingrays and 2 M109 SPG assigned to it.

A new unit that resurrects a famous name is formed at Norfolk. The 7th Cavalry Regiment, with an initial strength of 400 men mounted on horses, is formed from experienced cavalry troops in the replacement pool. Four M116 75mm pack howitzers, formerly used for ceremonial purposes, are attached to the unit.

Feb 14, 2001 – Europe

Near Riga the US 8th Infantry Division and the 26th Guards Motorized Rifle Division, who have come to an accommodation as allies against the Soviets, along with partisans from the Free Latvian Army, defeat the 11th Soviet Guards Army as they attempt to take the city.

The 40th Guards Motorized Rifle Division, being composed almost entirely of Latvians and Estonians, mutinies and joins with the 26th Guards at a critical moment in the battle, leaving the rear of the 140th Motorized, along with the Army HQ, completely open to being attacked by it and the Free Latvian partisans.

The 11th Guards Army takes catastrophic losses, with the 140th Motorized Rifle Division being totally destroyed in the fighting and the 107th Motorized reduced to scattered pockets of men totaling only some 800 men. The M1’s and Stingrays of the 8th, firing from camouflaged positions, along with hunter killer teams armed with RPG-16’s destroy the entire Soviet tank force of 36 T-55 tanks in 30 furious minutes of fighting.

The survivors of the 11th Guards Army are mopped up over the next few days by the renegade Soviet units and Latvian partisans. Two hundred ragged survivors eventually make their way back to the Soviet Union.

[Olefin]

As to the Chaffee

Keep in mind that Norway operated them until 1993 in the real world, Uruguay still operates them today and Chile operated them until 1999. And the US, with a lot of its factories shut down by early 1998, would have been raiding every collector, armory, museum and arsenal they could find for tanks and other armored vehicles. So the idea of them being able to put a few back into service is not that farfetched.

And I will take an old tank with a 75mm gun on it any day over an armored car with a few machine guns or a gun truck.

Keep in mind places like http://www.site.ww2mv.com/ for places the military might find old tanks they can use in a desperate situation like the US is in by late 2000 of the Twilight War.

[Raellus]

As to the Chaffee

Keep in mind that... in the real world, Uruguay still operates them today...

Are you sure about that? When I lived there in '91-'93, they weren't operational (they were sort of in a perpetual refurbishing status). AFAIK, that hasn't changed since.

I could, however, see a small number of Chaffees operating in CONUS with Mil or CivGov forces during the Twilight War. I like little flavor pieces like that.

This is only a partial excerpt but it might prove helpful:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rZYkHWkVUSQC&pg=PT46&lpg=PT46&dq=m24+chaffee+Uruguay&source=bl&ots=swWa9BWWzq&sig=5I-aIoUR9RsAJMoaZnTDj5xupcM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dhtvULrtHqapiAK6g4GgCw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ

[Olefin]

According to the IISS Military Balance report as of 2010 they still had 16 M-24 and also had 47 M-41 tanks as well. However they very well may be in storage and not active duty by now.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've got an old (ca. 1988/1990) handbook on armor that notes that a few M3 Stuarts are in use in Central America...! :) I'm sure they're not any longer, but still the thought just tickles me. I think it was El Salvador.

[Olefin]

Have this image of a bunch of marauders running for their lives, with burning jeeps mounting light machine guns littering a town square as this grizzled 75 year old WWII vet and his restored Stuart that he somehow got shells for is kicking their butts.

[Targan]

Have this image of a bunch of marauders running for their lives, with burning jeeps mounting light machine guns littering a town square as this grizzled 75 year old WWII vet and his restored Stuart that he somehow got shells for is kicking their butts.

Love it :D

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Love it :D

Yah; even solid-shot 37mm would just wreck your damn afternoon!

[HorseSoldier]

I've got an old (ca. 1988/1990) handbook on armor that notes that a few M3 Stuarts are in use in Central America...! :) I'm sure they're not any longer, but still the thought just tickles me. I think it was El Salvador.

I believe the government side of the Nicaraguan revolution made use of M5 Stuarts, M8 and M20 armored cars, and probably assorted other WW2 US armor. I think the Sandanistas used a lot of that stuff for subsequent monuments to the Revolution (and of course used older .sov stuff for their own AFV needs).

[HorseSoldier]

And I will take an old tank with a 75mm gun on it any day over an armored car with a few machine guns or a gun truck.


Sure, a tank is better than an armored car.

However, take one of each at the start line of an offensive operation in the summer of 2000 in the Twilight War logistics situation and I bet the tank is deadlined and inoperable within 30 days due to lack of spares, available spares themselves being 50 years old, no one knowing how to keep the thing running, and vehicles from that era not being made, automotively, to last as long as more modern equipment.

And that obviously doesn't even touch on the ammo (or lack thereof) issue. Having some experience shooting WW2 vintage (1943, Des Moines Ordnance Plant) .50 cal API-T ammo . . . I'd be excited to watch (from a distance and definitely not in the tank) someone put some vintage 75mm ammo through an M24.

Meanwhile, the light armored vehicle built on a modified 5 ton chassis is trucking along (burning less fuel in the process), using chassis and automotive components that are so well supported in the logistical system that even in Y2K it may be possible to get spares, able to draw on a big enough body of trained maintenance personnel that even in Y2K experienced and familiar mechanics can likely be found (and if not civilian commercial diesel truck mechanics can cross over pretty easily) and reliant on types of ammunition that are, again, common enough that they can probably be kept in the fight on most any T2K battlefield.

At the big picture level, it's logistics that will win (or lose) the fight for either of the rival US governments circa 2000. Systems so old that "legacy" doesn't even begin to describe them aren't going to be worth the effort to get into the fight or keep in the fight -- if it is even possible at all.

[Olefin]

Feb 16, 2001

Pennsylvania

The 28th Infantry Division makes contact with the Harrisburg Garrison; a force composed of state police, retired military and locally raised militia, under the control of the last elected governor of PA. They find that Three Mile Island didn’t suffer any EMP damage as it was shut down for overhaul and repairs during the attack. It is fully functional but only has fuel for producing 20 percent of its rated power for another five years, or ten percent for ten years. The 28th is ordered to support the restoration of power to the York UD-BMY plant as well as the Harley plant in York to restart production as well as assist the Governor in restoring stability to central PA.

MilGov is excited to learn that the guard force there kept the plant intact and in working order. The inventory at the York plant has shown there are enough parts and vehicles stored out of the weather in various buildings to be able to produce 88 remanufactured or reset Bradley AFV’s of various types, 16 remanufactured M109A5 SPG, 14 new build FAASV, 42 new build M8 AGS, 12 reset M9ACE and 26 remanufactured M88A2 vehicles. That will allow MilGov to rearm to some extent the forces recently evacuated from Europe.

A significant amount of the former plant personnel including some 38 trained welders have been found still living in and around York and have been promised food and safe accommodations for them and their families while they work to build these vehicles, which will take quite some time to deliver them all.

Beyond the fully salvageable vehicles that can be completed there are also a large amount of vehicles that can be stripped for spare parts as well as additional stored parts that can be used to make vehicles operational at division depots throughout the MilGov area of control.

California

The 177the Brigade (OPFOR Brigade), which has held Fort Irwin since the Mexican invastion, begins a limited offensive to clear the marauders from the Brigada Ensenada from its scattered positions in and around Barstow in preparation for an attack on the 1st Brigada’s position near Edwards Air Force Base along with the 40th Infantry.

February 24, 2001

A small tanker arrives in Norfolk with oil from Gulf Forty to fuel the ships that will bring the 1st Armored Division to Texas as well as to allow the remaining navy ships at Norfolk and Cape May to begin limited operations again.

Feb 27, 2001 – Bears Den

CivGov announces a major victory as the last of the 13th Army forces in Lvov surrenders to a large force of partisans and the 27th NATO Tank Division (which is nominally under CivGov control). The mass escape of 2500 Chinese and NATO POWS from the POW camp near Lvov, engineered by the partisans, helped immensely with this, with the NATO troops alone increasing the 1st Armored Brigade to nearly 600 men. What is left of the 13th Army has retreated to Ternopol.

This victory was made possible by the sabotaging of the SCUD missile that was to attack Drogobych, which instead detonated directly over the 128th before it attacked the city. The 128th followed its orders and attacked the city and overwhelmed its garrison but the virus left them unable to resist the ensuing attack of the 27th Tank Division, who captured most of their equipment including three of their four tanks.

The 27th was then able to refuel and stop the attack of the 318th, pushing them back and capturing many of their vehicles as well as they ran out of fuel. A siege of Lvov and Olesko began, which led to the capture of Olesko Castle in early January. Much of the Lvov Guard either deserted or surrendered as the 27th fought their way into the city.

[The Rifleman]

In some cases they would have fabricated parts at machine shops from 40 and 50 year old drawings.



Back in the day, every tank and mech battalion had machine shops with some impressive tools in them. They would actually make parts for our M60A3s if they didn't have them. Obviously, some things were beyond us making, like optics, but you'd be surprised what they could do, even out in the field! As an aside, the M60s are pretty darm similar to an M48, which is only somewhat evolved from the M47. So I'd assume that a Chaffee would not be that much harder to work on.

[Olefin]

thats one reason the 28th is being tasked to get power restored to the York plant - between it and Harley they have a lot of machinging equipment and expertise - they can make parts if they have to, fabricate harnesses and the York plant can cut armor plate to size and weld it.

A very good resource to have for MilGov.

[The Rifleman]

Recovery should not be that hard. You've got to get good security in place with loyal people. If you can do that, then people will stick around because they live in a world where survival is not a given. PA also has farmland. If the farmers can concentrate on farming and not fighting, then there is excess for for workers. Those guys can get to work restoring power, fixing machines..... it all just comes down to being able to control the ground you're on.

[Olefin]

thats why my GM had the 28th go there - who better to defend ground in PA than units from the PA Army National Guard?

[The Rifleman]

Its smart. They have a vested interest in seeing recovery start at home.

[HorseSoldier]

Also increases risk of desertion, though, I'd think -- you're from Pennsylvania, you're sent to Pennsylvania, but the unit's AOR doesn't cover your home community (or you're just sick of military service and home is nearby) there is going to be a stronger motivation to take off than for a unit in Pennsylvania that originated in, say, Florida or Oregon.

[Olefin]

not if they are properly motivated - i.e. guys if you take off then the state is screwed and we wont be able to protect anyone but with us all hanging together we can start here in central PA and then expand until we have the whole state back in one piece - of course you have to do it as well - that will keep them together for a while but if its a year later and they are still sitting in York and Harrisburg then you will have some real issues begin

[The Rifleman]

Also increases risk of desertion, though, I'd think -- you're from Pennsylvania, you're sent to Pennsylvania, but the unit's AOR doesn't cover your home community (or you're just sick of military service and home is nearby) there is going to be a stronger motivation to take off than for a unit in Pennsylvania that originated in, say, Florida or Oregon.

A valid concern. But I think that the way to do it is send your national guard battalions back to the same geographical area they came from. Now they aren't just defending their country, but their home.

Imgaine the white death is coming. I'd much rather have my guard buddies around then just be by myself.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

In '89 during the Tianamen Square protests/riots, the first units deployed were army units directly in the Tianamen military district. Commanders found the men reluctant to put the boot in against "their own" people, so those units were rotated out and replaced with units from the rural areas. It's my understanding that, at the time at least, there was a lot of tension between those two groups. The rural folk, the farmers, looked down on the folks in the city as decadent and "westernized" (read: lazy) and folks in the city regarded the other provinces as simplistic and uneducated (read: counterrevolutionary). This was the perfect match for the ChiCom junta: both sides hated each other and the military needed little provocation to kill a few dozen/hundred demonstrators.

Food for thought.

[Olefin]

Before anyone thinks I am trying stir up conflict here, keep in mind this is my feelings and those of my GM when we played back in college, on why the events of Kidnapped and Howling Wildnerness did not happen in that campaign. As you have already seen canon took several turns already - but this details why my GM threw those modules in the trash (which I agreed with at the time) for the subsequent events in the timeline. Thus this is not about canon - its about how my timeline differs from canon and why and how it does.

Remember that campaign is where this timeline comes from and how it diverged from canon. Thus this is not an attempt to refute the canon and say we (my GM and those who played in that campaign) are somehow right and the canon is wrong. It is how we approached the canon events of those two modules and decided, as a group, that those events would not be part of our campaign world and thus eventually this timeline.

March 2001 – September 2001

The world wide changes in weather that bring a drought that kills most of the remaining population of the United States of America that is in Kidnapped and Howling Wilderness and mentioned elsewhere does not occur in my timeline as they did not occur in the campaign my GM ran with us in college for the reasons given below.

Reasons:

1) The weather effects as depicted in those two modules completely fail to mention the effect of the El Nino and the Gulf Stream on North American weather. Neither of those two would have been affected by the nuclear strikes on North America. The Gulf Stream in particular has a huge effect on bringing moisture into the eastern part of the United States as well as moderating temperatures, no matter what happens in the continent itself.

2) The drought as depicted would take a much bigger climatic event than the nuclear strikes as depicted in Twilight 2000. To bring on a change of that magnitude would have required almost the entire arsenal of both sides to be used with much bigger mega tonnage, mostly as ground bursts in order to generate the needed dust and debris – in which case most of the world would be dead from radiation effects already. The nuclear powers avoided ground bursts as much as possible from the descriptions given in various source books and modules – and thus the strikes, while numerous, lack the ability to change weather on a global scale.

3) If anything the effect of debris and dust thrown into the air would have produced more rainfall and snowfall, not less. Thus you wouldn’t be looking at drought but increased rainfall, especially in the areas where the nukes hit the hardest.

4) Beyond the scientific reasons, the simple fact is that the uber drought and plagues, as described in Kidnapped, would have destroyed the population of the United States, Canada and Mexico beyond the ability of those nations to be able to rebuild in any time less than multiple centuries.

The mass starvations would have left those still alive totally susceptible to plague and other illnesses to the point that there would have been very few survivors. Thus the whole Twilight 2300 AD timeline, as presented by GDW, cannot occur as it relates to North America, with this drought and plague. And without the US, Mexico, Canada and Texas recovering per that timeline, 2300 AD falls apart as a possible future.

Also as presented in Kidnapped, almost all the areas that show any ability to survive the drought are under the control of New America. CivGov basically has no area left under their control that is survivable and MilGov has Colorado Springs while New America has a lot better situation overall – which is pretty convenient topography indeed. Thus the final defeat of New America becomes a non-event as they would end up being by far the most numerious afterward. And again so much for Twilight 2300 AD.

After much discussion, our GM and the few players who were still interested in the game decided to throw both modules into the trash and we continued, ignoring the drought and any reference to it in the modules we used, until the group finally broke up after college.

Thus, while there will be local droughts and plague events in 2001 AD in my timeline, there will be no massive drought and destruction of the remaining population of the United States per what we discussed. As I have seen on this forum, that position is a very common one among its members, though not in any way universal. Kidnapped and Howling Wilderness thus will not make any kind of appearance in the Olefin timeline – to me and my GM when we played, they are as much apocrypha as City of Angels is or as realistic as the scenarios in Twilight Nightmares.

[Rockwolf66]

Speaking upthread about old ammo...


I found This Video (http://youtu.be/m_QB3G4FAn8)

At the Time I was looking at a M9A1 Autocannon for $5,000 and I was trying to find the ammo to go with it.

[Olefin]

March 5, 2001 Med Cruise (as played by my group)

The repairs on the Corpus Christi have been completed and she leaves for the Mediterranean on her mission. She has on board about two thirds of a normal crew complement, nineteen torpedoes, four Harpoon missiles and three Tomahawk missiles, as well as spare parts needed for three other SSN’s. In addition she has on board four DIA agents, military spare parts and supplies and ten men from the New England strike team.

She travels across the Atlantic, enters the Med and proceeds to Sicily and picks up one DIA agent and drops off another. Her next stop is then Yugoslavia, where contact is made with DIA agents working to turn the 42nd Infantry Division over to MilGov. Two more agents are dropped off here where they join up with a group of officers friendly to MilGov to deliver a bribe of parts for the division’s commander that could put a dozen of his M60 tanks back into operation, plus some 48 shells for those tanks. On the way out the Corpus Christi attacks and sinks an Italian DD on patrol with a single torpedo.

Her next stop is at an Israeli naval base where parts are dropped off to repair SSN-666, the USS Hawkbill (Sturgeon class), which is in port there, as well as for SSN-773, USS Cheyenne (Los Angeles class), which is at Bahrain. In addition she transfers six torpedoes and one Harpoon missile for the Hawbill. Cheyenne has most of her weapons load out still but Hawbill was down to her last two torpedoes. She then leaves for Greece after picking up a large shipment of weapons from the Israelis.

In Greece she picks up a DIA agent who has the location of two scientists who have vital information for MilGov. The sub travels thru the Dardanelles and drops off the strike team, who make contact with the Romanian resistance fighters after three days that have the scientists, and agree to exchange them for the weapons on the submarine.

The submarine then proceeds to the contact point, where in the process of unloading the weapons they are attacked by Soviet units after being betrayed by an agent in the resistance group. The initial Soviet attack force is destroyed in a hard fight but at the cost of a third of the resistance members. A radio taken off a dying Soviet officer reveals a second Soviet attack with tank support is on its way, and the strike team along with the resistance force sets an ambush quickly.

They are able to destroy both Soviet tanks and three APC’s, leading to a Soviet withdrawal as their morale breaks. The resistance commander gives them a message for the captain as he loads the weapons in several trucks. The submarine then moves off shore and fires the three Tomahawk missiles, using the positional fix he received from the resistance leader as to where he was exactly on a map of the Romanian coast, at the Ploesti oil fields and refinery complexes there. He then reveals they were TLAM-N nuclear missiles and that MilGov is counting on this strike to win the war by destroying the last source of gasoline for the Soviets in Europe.

The submarine commander, after reading the message given him by the resistance leader, gives the order to take the sub as quickly as possible for Portsmouth, UK to drop off the last of its parts. Clearly the message has disturbed him.

[Snake Eyes]

The submarine then moves off shore and fires the three Tomahawk missiles, using the positional fix he received from the resistance leader as to where he was exactly on a map of the Romanian coast, at the Ploesti oil fields and refinery complexes there. He then reveals they were TLAM-N nuclear missiles and that MilGov is counting on this strike to win the war by destroying the last source of gasoline for the Soviets in Europe.


That there is my kind of hard core.

[Olefin]

Well if MilGov really wants to win the war, then three TLAM-N Tomahawks are the way to go! So much for Ploesti continuing to give the Soviets any more oil. (Course the Romanians wont like it much that we just popped three nukes on the soil of one of our own allies - but I dont think by 2001 MilGov would care too much about keeping the Romanians happy)

[RN7]

This is really good Olefin, please continue.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

How are they hauling all this stuff on the sub? Even down to 2/3rds crew, there's not exactly acres of cargo space onboard.

[Olefin]

She would be making room for cargo by:

1) most of the submarine spare parts she was carrying were electrical parts and parts for the reactors - we arent talking a new screw, we are talking fire control equipment, wiring harnesses, various control units, valves, etc.. . Same with the parts for the tanks - most of the parts were small ones of various types, plus track pads, a few sprockets, some roadwheels, lubrication oil, etc.. plus the shells.

2) the weapons for the Romanians were loaded in Israel in exchange for Israel having access to the data from the Russian scientists and for information on Reset - thus they only had to be carried for a short distance instead of all the way from the US

3) she only loaded enough food and consumables for a short mission instead of a long patrol - she had to get more food and consumables in Israel along with the weapons to be able to finish the mission

4) off-loading the torpedoes, harpoon missile and spare parts in Israel and the tank spares and shells in Yugoslavia gave her just enough room for the weapons for the Romanians - thats why they had to go in the sequence as described

I.e. she didnt have enough room to carry everything from Norfolk to Yugoslavia to Israel to the pickup then to Portsmouth and home, which was the orginal mission profile before they found out about the Russian SSBN - she had to count on being able to offload stuff in Israel to have enough room for the weapons needed for Romania, which had to be loaded in Israel, plus be able to load enough food in Israel as their wasnt enough space at Norfolk to load food for the whole mission

its one reason they didnt have a full crew - they had to leave some behind and run reduced normal shifts to be able to fit everything aboard including the characters - our characters got nominated, for instance, to do most of the cooking and other grunt jobs as the crew who normally did that were left behind

[Olefin]

Now to get the rest of the timeline catching up to where the players were

March 5, 2001

California

The 177th Brigade (OPFOR Brigade) out of Fort Irwin and the 40th Infantry attack the Mexican 1st Brigada’s position near Edwards Air Force Base in the first offensive against the Mexicans in two years in California.

Norfolk

The 1st Armored Division, along with 600 replacements from Omega and 800 new recruits fresh out of training leaves for Texas to reinforce the units near Brownsville and begin the offensive to retake the Gulf Coast and drive the Russians out of San Antonio. In Texas the Port Isabel Refinery is about to begin production again of refined products.

To add power to the division every operational helicopter that MilGov has at Norfolk is sent to create an Aviation Brigade for the 1st Armored. A total of four AH-1 Cobras, three AH-64 Apaches, five UH-1, three UH-60 and the CH-47 that evacuated the rear guard at Bremen are sent. In addition they have loaded ammo and weapons for the helos, plus every tech and spare part they could find.

Memphis

A single survivor of the two platoons of the 197th sent to investigate what is going on in the Ozarks returns back to friendly lines telling of being attacked from the air by a dirigible and ultra lights.

Maryland/Virginia

The 38th Infantry Division begins an operation to clear out marauders and other groups near Harpers Ferry and in the Shenandoah Valley so as to put that area under MilGov control again.

Korea

The USMC, in order to consolidate the logistical troops and free up more combat manpower, combines the three USMC divisions in Korea into two. The 16th Regiment of the 6th Marine Division joins the
23rd Regiment of the 4th Division, bringing the 4th to 1000 men and thirteen M60A4 tanks. The Marines have also started their own boot camp to train some 900 sailors whose ships have been sunk or damaged beyond repair into Marines.

The Army, looking to streamline its own forces, combines the 25th and 45th Infantry Divisions, with the resulting 25th Infantry Division now having 2600 men.

Poland

The XI Corps, having survived the winter, begins to make plans to attempt to get back to Germany. They have made contact with the III Corps HQ that stayed in Germany. While they know they are stuck in Europe for now, at the least they can be with fellow Americans in a NATO country instead of cutoff in an enemy country.

[Olefin]

March 10, 2001

Mississippi River Valley

The 278th Armored Regiment drives north from Memphis to pacify the area between Cairo, Illinois and Memphis and link up with the 194th and establish a fully pacified zone between Cairo and Memphis, routing a marauder force of 60 men in its first battle along the way.

Pennsylvania

The 28th Infantry expands its zone of control in PA to include Lancaster County, linking up with various militia and MP units in the area. A small force from the 28th is dispatched westward to investigate rumors of a large supply cache in the area.

California

After five days of fighting the Mexican 1st Brigada has been defeated, withdrawing to the southwest towards LA as the 177th Brigade links up with the 40th Infantry just south of Edwards Air Force Base.

March 14, 2001

The 1st Armored Division is in Texas and is in the process of converting its vehicles to run on gasoline and diesel again as refined products are now available. The other units there have already converted their vehicles.

New England

Two US destroyers conduct operations against the UBF, sinking or capturing ten of their fishing boats and armed trawlers as well as conducting a bombardment of his base at Nantucket, setting fire to the buildings. Carlucci escapes injury but many of his trusted lieutenants are killed.

Pennsylvania

Power is partially restored to the York defence plant and operations begin there again, initially on the Bradley and M8 lines only.

[Olefin]

March 16, 2001

West Virginia

The 38th Infantry Division takes Harpers Ferry, securing the only bridge across the Potomac in that area, and then going on into Bolivar, where much to their surprise they find a large force of marauders, who they immediately engage. Early in the fighting they capture two school buildings and find that they have been converted into huge supply dumps, full of weapons, ammunition and other items. Most of the enemy gives up quickly, but around eighty men retreat into bunkers and fight hard.

New Jersey

The 78th Division, now reinforced with troops from Omega, begins operations to secure the approaches to NYC, sending in small patrols into the city itself to assess the current situation and to try to locate the missing cache of gold lost in the city during their disastrous pullout. They make contact with the Duke of New York and the New York government in the Bronx.

March 17, 2001

West Virginia

The 38th captures Bolivar after a hard two day fight, using artillery and TOW missiles to blast the remaining enemy bunkers and strong points. Some 500 enemy troops are either killed or captured in the fighting, along with huge amounts of fuel, ammunition, food and equipment.

Two gas stations in town are captured intact with their storage tanks having over 18,000 liters of ethanol and 50,000 liters of methanol fuel. Another 4000 liters of methanol is in an above ground tank. In addition two small storage tanks have 1000 liters of aviation gas and 2500 liters of diesel fuel. A total of three large stills are taken intact as well.

Of three major depots in the town, two are taken intact and one is heavily damaged. They contain tons of food, a dozen light anti-tank missiles, six 82mm mortars, 300 mortar shells, five recoilless rifles, 100 HE shells for the rifles, twenty light machine guns, and some 1500 M16 rifles, many of them brand new, as well as tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition. In addition there are dozens of crates of grenades, mines and other hardware as well as communication gear and other items.. Three converted armored bank cars are captured intact as well as over fifty trucks of various types and ten Jeeps. Clearly this was a major supply center, one that rivals anything that MilGov or CivGov still has left in the US.

As well as the supplies the town is a gold mine of information. Large amounts of documents on New America and its forces in West Virginia, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Virginia and Ohio are collected. Most importantly, the Colonel in charge at Bolivar, who was taken alive and given a choice between twenty years hard labor if he talked or a slow hanging if he didn’t, gives information on the location of supply caches and depots. He also discloses, after a long and painful interrogation, that Carl Hughes, who has been on the most wanted list of the FBI for several years, is the leader of that force and that his HQ is nearby close to Charles Town.

A force of two battalions is sent immediately to where Hughes is to capture him, while the 38th licks its wounds and resupplies itself. From what they have found, New America has almost 7,000 men under arms in the immediate states, mostly organized in small company sized units. Many of them are men with no military experience but there are many renegade National Guard and Reservist troops who have joined them. Some thirty men from among the captured, found to be AWOL National Guard, reservists or active duty military servicemen, are executed by hanging after the battle.

March 22, 2001

West Virginia

Battle of Country Home

The two battalions of the 38th assault the New America HQ. Using the information obtained from Bolivar they manage to infiltrate both above ground houses and grab Carl Hughes, who is asleep in his bedroom, then penetrate into the underground complex before the alarm is sounded. After the alarm sounds, a deadly close in fight breaks out, with the men from the 38th outnumbering the defenders. The 38th eventually takes the whole complex, killing or capturing all in it, including many top New American commanders and supporters.

They find a veritable treasure of food, weapons, supplies (including a huge supply of paper). Large amounts of operational computer equipment including several mini mainframes are found. Most importantly of all the HQ center in the building was taken intact with the computer mainframes holding vital information on New America and its dispostions and plans. The New American commanders responsible for their destruction did not issue orders to destroy them, as they could only come from Carl Hughes himself, and thus they were not destroyed.

Information found includes information on enemy dispositions, supply caches and activities, including information on operations in Maine, Florida and the Ozarks, as well as complete files on New America operatives within MilGov and CivGov. With this information, the scale of the New America forces and plans is completely laid bare to see.

Later historians will compare this find to the British and Poles breaking Enigma or the US breaking the Japanese codes during WWII in terms of an intelligence find.

This all comes at quite a price – of the 600 men sent in to get Hughes and take the complex, 75 die and another 150 are wounded in some way or another, many seriously. Luckily the complex infirmary was also taken intact and is quickly put to use.

Illinois

The 278th Armored Cavalry Regiment arrives near Cairo, completing its mission. To the south, the 197th sends a new group, this time clandestinely, to find out more about what is going on in Arkansas after the failure of the two platoons to do so.

Texas

1st Armored has completed preparation of its vehicles, all of which are now ready to run on gasoline again. The first objective is to destroy the Soviet and Mexican forces dug in at Harlingen. The 85th stays behind to guard the refinery as the 43rd moves out to secure the McAllen and Rio Grande City area. The 4th and the 1st move north toward Harlingen.

[Olefin]

March 24, 2001

Maryland/PA

3rd Mechanized, having left 600 men behind to guard Fort Meade, begins a drive on Hagerstown from Frederick. The 28th Infantry Division, reinforced by militia from Harrisburg, sends forces west from Carlisle to secure the area around Chambersburg and effect a link up with the 3rd after it has taken Hagerstown.

Yugoslavia

The commander of the 42nd Infantry Division, after receiving the MilGov offer from the DIA agents dropped by the USS Corpus Christi, including promises of resupply for his forces from Israel, cuts ties with CivGov and joins MilGov. He also arrests the staff of the IV Corps and seizes control of most of the the supply and ammunition dumps for the 80th Infantry Division. He sends messages to both the 76th and the 80th, telling them that CivGov has abandoned them and that the only real chance they have for completing their mission and getting home again is with MilGov.

Texas

The 49th Armored Division and 95th Infantry Divisions prepare to move southward into northern Texas in conjunction with the drive in southern Texas. In Louisiana the 98th Division is preparing to move as well in support.

2nd Battle of Harlingen

The Mexican and Russian forces in the area, numbering 800 men and four BTR’s from the remnants of the Brigada San Luis Potosi, the Brigada Tampica and a Soviet regiment of Division Cuba, are hit from the air by helicopters, then the ground. The fight rapidly turns into a rout, with the 43rd heading for McAllen and the 1st and 4the heading north for Raymondville, reaching it by nightfall of the 24th. The US takes less than 50 casualties while the enemy force is annihilated, either killed or captured except for a few men who escape on foot.

West Virginia

The 38th is attacked by several companies of New American troops at Bolivar. The attacks are uncoordinated and supported by only a few mortars. Clearly they didn’t expect their enemies to be trained experienced troops, and in the numbers present at Bolivar. They beat the attacks off easily with minimal casualties while NA takes nearly 400 dead, wounded and captured.

[natehale1971]

You could also use Nuclear Aircraft Carriers (both fighters & helicopter) as fuel carriers... all the fuel tanks for avgas can easily be used to carry other forms of fuel since they don't have as much aircraft to keep feed. they also have huge hanger decks that can be used as cargo holds if they aren't carrying fighters. these nuclear powered vessels would be worth their weight in gold since they are still capable of going long distances with the only resuppling they needed would be food. they can create their own water, and even could become the power supply for entire cities.

[Olefin]

March 26, 2001

California

The 177th Brigade attacks Mexican marauder forces near Victorville as the 40th Infantry, after clearing out Lancaster, continues its attack into Palmdale. Mexican Regular Army troops in the area are giving ground, as they withdraw to positions in the mountains north of Los Angeles.

A reorganization of forces in California begins as the 89th Corps is folded into the 63rd Corps, with its supply and headquarters troops being integrated to free up men for frontline duty. The 91st Infantry Division is integrated into the 46th Infantry Division along with militia reinforcements to bring the 46th up to 2000 men. The 49th Military Police Brigade and the 221st Military Police Brigade are joined together into the new 106th Infantry Division, along with some 900 militia, to bring it up to 2500 men, with the two Brigades remaining as seperate parts of the new division. Large scale preparations are being made for an offensive against the Mexicans and recruitment and training efforts in California are beginning to pay dividends to bring US forces back to strenth.

Arizona/New Mexico

In Arizona and New Mexico, preparations have begun to retake the areas lost to the Mexicans.

In Arizona, the 158th Infantry Regiment is reactivated in Flagstaff, Arizona. Its 600 men include militia, Battery Yuma, a battery of three prototype 155mm howitzers that were at Yuma Proving Grounds and a sprinkling of police, National Guardsmen and Border Guards. Its only armored vehicles are four modified bank armored cars and a single M50 Ontos from a civilian collector with two 106mm recoilless rifles added to it. Two of its four infantry companies are horse soliders.

In New Mexico, the 200th Infantry Brigade has been formed from the surviving members of the National Guard, reinforced by some 500 militia from Santa Fe. It has 1500 men, along with the SCV Battery of the 202nd Field Artillery (three 105mm, one 155mm) and what is left of the 7-200 ADA Battalion (five Chaparral, eleven Duster). Four of its companies are cavalry.

It is deployed just north of what remains of Albuquerque, which was destroyed when Kirtland Air Force Base was hit by an 800 kiloton surface burst during the TDM. It ruins have since cooled down sufficiently to move thru its ruins.. That strike and its after effects served to help stop the Mexican invasion from getting to Santa Fe in 1998 as the prevailing winds dropped radiation south and southeast of Albuquerque, preventing the Mexicans from crossing that area due to the high residual radiation at the time.

Texas

The 43rd enters McAllen after dispersing a group of Constitucionales that had taken over the town from the 50 Brigada Tampica infantry that were left in town. The commander issues a proclamation that promises amnesty to any who worked for the Mexicans who were American citizens and that as long as they will not take up arms that any refugees can stay for now. In the north elements of the 1st encounter Bandera Rodriguez near Kingsville. They dig in and wait for the rest of the 1st to join them.

Nuclear attack on Romanian oil facilities (from the end of our Med Cruise campaign game)

Earlier in the war the US had used smaller nuclear air bursts to try to keep civilian casualties down among their allies, the Romanians, which had resulted in the survival of some of the Ploesti oilfields and refineries. This time MilGov isn’t concerned about civilian casualties, instead they want to knock Ploesti out once and for all.

The three Tomahawks launched by the Corpus Christi arrive on target, all detonating one after the other, spread out to achieve maximum destruction of the surviving refineries and oil fields around Ploesti, completely destroying them along with 42nd Guards Tank Division and the 97th Motorized Rifle Division. The only survivors of the two divisions are a detachment of some 180 men from the 42nd along with four tanks in Constanta.

The three 150 kiloton bursts, detonated only 100 feet off the ground, combined with the sustained winds of 20 mph from the north that day, send a huge cloud of debris, dirt and burning oil downwind, full of radioactive fallout. The fallout plumes from the three blasts extend into Bulgaria, with Bucharest covered in fallout of over 10 rads per hour.

Hundreds of thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians die or are sickened by the fallout, which hits without warning due to the breakdown of communications in the area caused by the war. The attack devastates both countries, with large areas of the countryside poisoned by fallout for years to come.

For the Soviets the attack is a catastrophe. The destruction of the Ploesti oil fields means the end of any more gasoline, diesel or aviation gas for their forces in Eastern Europe, crippling any further operations there. For their forces in the path of the cloud, their filters for their NBC equipment either long ago used or sold on the black market, the effects are devastating.

Except for 80 men of the 32nd Air Assault Brigade, who escape in their helicopters, every man of the 14th Tank Division and the 32nd Air Assault Brigade sickens and dies from radiation poisoning over the next few days. The Soviet forces that remain are spread out, with several low on fuel. In the coming days Romanian partisans, reinforced by the weapons recently received from the Americans, begin to attack all those units in a bid to finally reclaim what is left of their country.

[Olefin]

by the way the attack on Ploesti and its after effects is what our GM gave us as our debriefing at the end of the mission - as he said if the US wants to win the war then you don't do it with just supplies to guerillas

[kato13]

Was there any thought as to how the Soviets might respond to these three warheads. I know the Soviet options are limited, but canon had the 3 SLBM surviving to this point and 13 small nukes in Spetsnaz hands so it is possible.

Given the tit for tat nature of prior nuclear exchanges I can see the soviets doing something in response. Hard to think of an equivalent target in ravaged Europe, but I am sure there is something they would want to remove from the table.

[Olefin]

The SLBM were part of the next module we played and were dealt with there. Plus remember that MilGov was going for a win here to knockout the Soviets in Eastern Europe totally - and the SLBM warheads werent known to them until after the papers were given to them by the Romanians

He had us play the game from Challenge magazine where the Soviets tried to use one of those nukes and will talk about that later. We rolled up some different characters and did Kings Ransom and its after effects and he included that in the campaign.

One problem would be is what to hit. There are very few targets they can get to with those small nukes. And communications within the Soviet Union are so bad that communicating what happened to Ploesti to the right people might take some time, let alone figuring out if there is any target left worth expending your few remaining nukes on.

As my GM looked at this is MilGov going for the ability to say they won the war. Nuking Ploesti, gutting two Soviet Armies, denying them the last gas station in Europe and helping the Romanians get back their country (even at the cost of nuking a lot of it) - thats how you win a war, not just arm a bunch of guerrillas and hope that somehow they can beat a bunch of Soviet divisions that have gasoline, diesel, aviation gas and working helos and planes.

[Olefin]

Sorry for the long delay - between losing a job and finding one and then looking for a new place to live and living in hotels I havent had much time lately for Twilight 2000 - but finally getting back into it

here we go again

March 28, 2001

Korea

The 8th Army receives orders from MilGov to prepare to embark the newly consolidated 4th Marine Division and the 5th Marine Division along with the remnants of the 1st Marine Air Group and their aircraft for movement to CENTCOM along with the 900 “boots” being trained as new Marines. Fuel for the shipping and escorts needed for the movement of the Marines has just arrived from CENTCOM, along with aviation fuel to allow the USAF forces in Korea to begin limited operations again.

In addition, in exchange for fuel delivered to Taiwan, the 8th Army receives 40 M41D light tanks, 10 M60A3 TTS tanks and 20 V-150S armored cars as reinforcements, along with some spares to get 10 M109 SPG’s operational again. The armored cars are split between the 26th Infantry Division and the 163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, with the M41D tanks being split evenly between the 7th, 25th, 26th and 41st Infantry and the M60 tanks going to the 2nd Infantry Division, giving those units a much needed boost of armor to increase their combat effectiveness.

Yugoslavia

After a four day standoff, including a foiled attempted assassination by CIA advisers, the 80th Infantry Division changes its allegiance to MilGov. The 76th, for now, remains loyal to CivGov.

Maryland/PA/WV

The 3rd Mechanized and the 28th Infantry link up in Greencastle, PA destroying several small marauder and New American groups encountered in the area. In western PA a supply cache is found by a scout party dispatched by the 28th along with information on six other caches in PA, WV and NY. A large force with trucks escorted by two Bradley AFV's and several armed Hummers is dispatched to retrieve the material, which includes five fully armed and operational Bradley AFV and ten FAV's.

In York the first two vehicles come off the restarted assembly line and are ready for acceptance testing, two Bradley AFV’s, the first new military armored vehicles produced in the US since late 1998.

Norfolk/Colorado Springs

An urgent conference of the Chiefs of Staff on the information gathered from New America concludes after two days. The scale of New American operations in the US is immense and General Cummings has concluded that they represent as big a threat, if not more so, than the remaining Mexican and Soviet forces on US soil. Their operations in Florida and the Ozarks are especially of concern.

General Cummings immediately orders the arrest of some 500 New American operatives identified in the papers who are in MilGov units and organizations in the US and overseas. He also orders that an attempt must be made to warn CivGov of how badly penetrated their own units are, especially the 108th Infantry Division, and of the threat that New America constitutes.

California

The incorporation of Jacques Littlefield’s private museum and armored vehicle repair facility in order to provide armor for the 6th Army begins to bear fruit as a flow of fully operational vehicles begins to arrive to various units. Besides ones that were already operational, others that were previously demilitarized have been made operational using gun barrels, breeches and other parts salvaged from other non-operational or destroyed vehicles in California.

A composite mechanized battalion joins the new 106th Infantry Division, consisting of a scout company with six assorted armored cars, a tank company of five tanks (a Conqueror Heavy tank, a Centurion Mk13 tank, two ex-Israeli Sherman tanks and a Patton M47 tank), a mechanized infantry company with a M113A1 FSV and six assorted armored personnel carriers, a self propelled artillery company with a FV433 Abbot M105 SPG, a Sexton SPG armed with a 105mm howitzer and an M37 105mm Howitzer Motor Carriage, an engineering platoon with three assorted recovery vehicles, and an HQ section with a Saracen Command Post vehicle and an Israeli BTR 40. The addition of the battalion brings the 99th up to 2700 men total.


The 106th is preparing fuel and supplies to join the offensive that has begun north of Los Angeles against the Mexican occupation forces.

Two other tanks from the Collection, one M60A1 and one M60A2, are being sent on tank transporters to join the 40th. The skilled techs there are working on several other non-operational tanks and vehicles of various types, using the facility which is unique on the West Coast in its ability to repair and recondition tanks and armored vehicles.

Texas

The 1st Armored enters Kingsville after effectively destroying Bandera Rodriguez. In San Antonio the Russian commander of Division Cuba is fending off constant partisan attacks as word of the advance of the 1st reaches the area. The losses the division has taken to US forces in the last few weeks have stretched their remaining forces to the breaking point.

[.45cultist]

My old 1st Ed. campaign had a slow resurgence of airborne/ air assault using the airship plans from "Airlords", since most formations wound up light infantry anyway. Mortars were popular, their rounds could be dropped from the airships or supplied to the troops.

[Olefin]

In my campaign the GM had more armor - but no unit was armor rich to say the least - he used the forces that MilGov and CivGov had available to them and interpreted the canon data with some changes to make his own world - one where the troops brought home were used against both the domestic enemy - New America - and the remaining foreign threats on US soil. As well as used hints in the RDF and Kings Ransom as to what was about to happen in Iran as well in the spring and summer of 2001.

And you will see how Airlords factored in.

What I thought was interesting is that my GM when we were playing had us doing a group in Iran and CENTCOM got reinforced there from Korea which allowed us to bring in characters who had fought there. Then what do I find out looking thru the archive - that Frank Frey in his notes was saying that there was supposed to be an evacuation from Korea of US forces to CENTCOM that they never got to release. So my GM's guess at the future of the canon in Iran while we were playing was better than he thought.

[kalos72]

Love the work Ole...really! :)

One problem I have always had is, the fact that we say we went through all this stock of armor in the war? Or are these numbers wrong maybe?


Overall Notes On US OOB

Note 1: US Equipment Holdings (included National Guard and Reserve)

This represents a compilation of equipment holdings from a variety of sources. In addition, it is likely the US held significant quantities of older material in war reserve.
Tanks: 2374 M1 Abrams, 894 IPM1, 2100+ M1A1 (deliveries ongoing), 5328 M60A3, 2659 M60A1, as many as 1800 M48A5 , 1334 M551 Sheridan, 630 M47s (stored in Italy – this one surprised everyone after it was revealed in the CFE declarations.)
AIFVs: 4955 M2/M3 Bradleys (deliveries ongoing – 600 odd M2A2/M3A2 delivered in FY89)
M113 Family: (per Jane’s 1992) 16,000 M113 APCs, 1950 M106 107mm SP mortar, 950+ M125 81mm SP mortar, 4000 M548, 5000 M577, 3300 M901 SP TOW, 1000 M901 FIST-V
SP Artillery: 2,400 M109A2/A3 155mm SP (likely significant quantities in storage), 1046 M110A2 203mm SP
Towed Artillery: 1000+ M198 155mm towed howitzers (possibly fewer?), 526 M114 155mm towed howitzers, 150 M119 105mm (UK Light Gun), 1100+ M101, M102 105mm towed
MRL: 373 MLRS (deliveries ongoing)
Surface-to-Surface Missile Systems: 65 Lance launchers (more in storage?)
Air Defense: 400+ I-Hawk, ~300 Patriot (deliveries ongoing), 30+ Avengers (deliveries ongoing), 600 Chapparal SP, 31 Roland (in storage), some Pedestal Mounted Stinger (deliveries ongoing), numerous Stinger, Redeye, 360 M163 20mm Vulcan SP, 220 M167 20mm Vulcan towed, 300 M42 Duster twin 40mm SP (NG only, phasing out)
ATGM: 7700 Dragon launchers, 7400 TOW Launchers (not sure what this includes)
Fixed Wing Aviation: 28 RU-21, 148 OV-1B/C/D, 30 RV-1D (plus numerous light transport and utility types)
Rotary Wing Aviation: 1041 AH-1F/S Cobra, 535 AH-64A (deliveries ongoing), 1840 OH-58A/C, 74 OH-58D (deliveries ongoing), 340+ OH-6A, 950+ UH-60 (deliveries ongoing), 3200+ UH-1B/H (likely more in storage), 212 CH-47B/C, 240 CH-47D (deliveries ongoing), 71 CH-54 Tarhe heavy lift (NG only), 20 EH-1H Quick Fix I, 20+ EH-60A Quick Fix II (deliveries ongoing)
Special Operations Aviation: (as of end FY88): 2 UH-60A, 45 MH-60, 34 MH-6, 20 AH-6, 23 UH-1, 16 MH-47 (D?) (on order, being delivered?, 51 MH-47E, 23 MH-60K)
Other Equipment: 2625 M88 recovery vehicles, 1,100 AVLB

[stilleto69]

Kalos - are you using the numbers from the NATO Order of Battle 1989? If so remember those number are for a OTL force reduction, not the V1 version of a longer Cold War. IMHO - the US could have built more vehicles and had more equipment.

[kalos72]

Yeah, NATO OoB 1989...

OTL?

[stilleto69]

OTL - Our Time Line.

[Adm.Lee]

I wanna know what happened to the 630 M47s in Italy in T2k timeline!

Did the Italian government seize them when they joined the Pact? Were they under guard? Where were they?
Did the It. army put them to use when they ran out of their 1st line tanks? 630 is about 2 divisions' worth-- new formations or refitted old ones?

I have a small soft spot for them, I once built a model of one, and there is one in a museum near my city that I have yet to visit.

[Olefin]

For that matter what happened to all the M47 tanks that Iran has?

Iran got 400 and they still have 168 that are operational as of today. But there is nary a mention of them in the RDF. Shouldnt there be a few still operational there - I doubt they lost them all.

It actually should be a very common tank on the Twilight War battlefield - you would have had the following countries that could have operated them

South Korea, Iran, Iraq, Italy (the ones stored there), Greece, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Pakistan

[Olefin]

March 30, 2001

Ukraine

The 27th NATO Tank Division takes Ternopol after a two week siege, destroying what is left of the 13th Army in the process. The 27th sends emissaries to the various rebel Ukranian units to make contact.

March 31, 2001

Boomer

The SSN Corpus Christi makes a speed run down the Med in response to the information received from the resistance fighters. As it nears the Straits of Gibraltar it encounters the old French ASW frigate Commandant Bory (F726) on patrol. She manages to successfully elude her but is detected causing the French Navy to go on alert for submarines.

Western PA

The material found at the supply cache is loaded onto trucks and brought back to safety, meeting up with advance units of the 28th at Bedford. The unit bringing the material out was attacked by the White Death but was able to fight its way out. The five Bradley AFV found in the cache were crucial in defeating the White Death forces, their machine guns and 25mm cannon mowing down waves of attackers.

April 2, 2001

Germany

The DIA has been busy over the winter working with US units who refused to evacuate during Operation Omega and while not wholly successful in getting all the various remaining units to come back under US control, they have managed to bring three significant formations back under US MILGOV control.

The III Corps has been reformed and has what is left of the 1st US Cavalry Division, the 70th US Infantry Division and the 3rd US Armored Cavalry Regiment brought back together under its control near Neustrelitz, Germany. The remaining HQ troops from the XIII Corps have joined as well.

They are preparing for a joint operation with the III German Army to drive any remaining Soviet troops out of the area and then attempt a link-up with the US XI Corps in Poland in order to facilitate their withdrawal to friendly territory. They have managed to round up additional US personnel who missed the Omega evacuation, including some 5th Infantry survivors who have made it to Germany over the winter. The Germans have also agreed to hand over some tanks, vehicles and supplies left behind in order to add to their combat power with the proviso that any surviving vehicles and tanks will be handed back at the end of the operation.

III Corps

III Corps HQ
1st US Cavalry Division (2600 men, 54 tanks) - 10 M1, 20 M1A1, 20 M1A2, 4 M60A4
70th US Infantry Division (2000 men, 15 tanks) - 6 M8 Bufords, 9 LAV-75
3rd US Armored Cavalry Regiment (150 men, 4 tanks) - 4 M1A1

Boomer

The Corpus Christi stops at Portsmouth in order to complete her original mission and offload spare parts in order to repair the damaged Permit class submarine USS Gato (SSN-615) and allow her to travel back to Norfolk along with two torpedoes so she can defend herself on the way home. She receives more instructions from MilGov as well as six US Marines from the embassy detail as reinforcements for her landing party, leaving for Norway where they have been directed to meet up with the Norwegian King at the Norwegian naval base in Trondheim.

Korea

As part of the deal made with CENTCOM for fuel, a small convoy arrives at Pusan with the Republic of China’s 66th Marine Brigade. This 3500 man strong force includes a tank battalion (with 36 M41D tanks), four infantry battalions, an artillery battalion and assorted support companies. With their arrival the USMC forces begin to embark for Iran, giving up their places in the line to the Chinese Marines.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Korea

As part of the deal made with CENTCOM for fuel, a small convoy arrives at Pusan with the Republic of China’s 66th Marine Brigade. This 3500 man strong force includes a tank battalion (with 36 M41D tanks), four infantry battalions, an artillery battalion and assorted support companies. With their arrival the USMC forces begin to embark for Iran, giving up their places in the line to the Chinese Marines.

What's OOB of the Marine contingent? Strength, vehicles, attached personnel, air power, etc.

[Olefin]

The 66th Brigade would not have an air contingent (the Taiwan Marines have always been very light on air assets like helos, with only 6 Defender 500's assigned for the whole Marine force). Its artillery battalion would be equipped with M109A2 SPG, while its anti-tank company would have a mix of TOW's and the M40A1 recoilless rifle. It would have a single air defense company equipped with the M42 Duster and the MIM-72/M48 Chaparral.

Small arms would be the T65K2 assault rifle and the T75 light machine gun and they would also have the SMAW bunker busters as well.

The four infantry battalions would be also be equipped with the CM-21 (Taiwanese versions of the M113), each at full strength consisting of 40 officers and 571 NCOs and enlisted ranks. With Taiwan having seen little fighting to date they would be at full strength.

[Olefin]

April 3, 2001

California

The long planned and long delayed general offensive in California to drive the Mexicans back to their border, Operation Idaho, is almost ready to launch. MilGov has managed to get several co-generation plants going again which has allowed them to put two of the three refineries in Kern County (Kern Oil & Refining and San Joaquin Refining) back into full operation over the winter, using the output from the Kern Oil Fields, which they have expended a lot of effort on since 1999 to bring back into operational status.

Conversion is almost completed on the vehicles in the MilGov forces back to run on diesel and gasoline and units have been reinforced by militia units that have been incorporated into regular forces, which have been properly trained as well. A further 2000 militia have been raised and properly equipped in order to allow MilGov to concentrate its forces on the offensive without leaving many men behind to guard depots, food storage and the like.

Depots have been thoroughly searched throughout CA for ammunition, spare parts and working vehicles and in addition to what has been obtained from Littlefield some two dozen M48A5 tanks and fifty assorted M113's have been made operational (using parts from dozens of long stored vehicles to get them operational, a process which has taken nearly a year) as well as over two dozen assorted artillery pieces, some dating back to the Korean War. Units have been reinforced with gun trucks that have been up-armored using armor plate culled from various battlefields and depots and armed with machine guns, mortars and grenade launchers as well.

Alaska

DIA agents have been working extensively to sow dissent in the units that have been cut off in Anchorage since 1998, organizing guerrilla attacks that have forced the units to use much of their remaining ammo reserve in driving them off. Many soldiers in those units are down to their last couple of magazines, with some forced to switch to captured civilian weapons. US trainers with the X Corps have now thoroughly integrated the 14th and 41st Motorized Rifle Divisions that defected to the US after being driven out of Juneau into the US force structure, with any men who did not wish to join the US Army being given a choice between POW camps or parole if they signed a loyalty oath. While the winter has been hard with the coming of spring the 1st and 2nd Infantry Brigades and the 10th Infantry Division, who had spent much of the winter dispersed into small parties to make the most of what hunting and fishing could be done, re-integrating their ranks, adding local partisan and militia groups to their strength in order to finally free Anchorage from the Soviet 11th Army. While the Soviet forces have a substantial advantage in tanks (47 operational tanks versus 6) they have very limited ammunition and fuel for them.

Arkansas
With the information gathered in West Virginia the 197th is ordered to distribute long stored anti-aircraft weaponry to its units as New America’s possession of airships is now known.

Boomer

The Corpus Christi sails thru the English Channel, encountering the French ASW frigate Commandant Riviere that detects and attacks her. The destroyer is sunk by two torpedoes but not until after she manages to damage the Christi, knocking out her fire control system again. It can be repaired but the parts needed are back at Norfolk. Until she gets there she wont be able to use her weapons.

[lordroel]

Doe MilGov and CivGov use Technical in large numbers as pickups are very easy to find in The USA or mostly military vehicles.

[Olefin]

both of them most likely would be using gun trucks (i.e. technicals) - in canon the 278th was using gun trucks in Germany after they lost many of their vehicles on the trip over - you have to assume they continued that practice in the US

[lordroel]

both of them most likely would be using gun trucks (i.e. technicals) - in canon the 278th was using gun trucks in Germany after they lost many of their vehicles on the trip over - you have to assume they continued that practice in the US

So would anybody have control over one of the many car producing factories across the country, you can produce armored vehicles (armored plating and such) with not much problem.

[Olefin]

those factories really dont help much if you want to create home made armored vehicles - what you need is trucks you can modify - especially military ones or ones made for overland travel like Mack RD vehicles that were originally made to service the oil industry

[Olefin]

Sorry for the lack of updates - been very busy moving into a new house plus work has been a zoo - yet another reduction of force and the survivors (including me) having to make up for the lost personnel

[lordroel]

Sorry for the lack of updates - been very busy moving into a new house plus work has been a zoo - yet another reduction of force and the survivors (including me) having to make up for the lost personnel

The fact that you already made such good things compensate the lack of updates for me.

[LT. Ox]

The fact that you already made such good things compensate the lack of updates for me.
Same Fer me !!