Rules about tracers.

[Marc]

A post in the Firing Ports thread (the use of tracers in the M231's) has awoken my curiosity.

Is anyone using any houserule / rule covering the use of tracers?

[Brother in Arms]

In what way for directing fire or damage? Because a tracer should do as much damage as a ball round except with the possibility of catching dry materials on fire.

As for directing fire every 5th round in a belt of machine gun ammo is supposed to be a tracer. The draw back to tracers is people can see where you are shooting from as well.

The 231 uses straight tracers as that is the only way to direct fire for it when its in the firing port. It's really cool to remove from the vehicle and use with beta C mags :)

Brother in Arms

[Marc]

In what way for directing fire or damage? Because a tracer should do as much damage as a ball round except with the possibility of catching dry materials on fire.

As for directing fire every 5th round in a belt of machine gun ammo is supposed to be a tracer. The draw back to tracers is people can see where you are shooting from as well.

The 231 uses straight tracers as that is the only way to direct fire for it when its in the firing port. It's really cool to remove from the vehicle and use with beta C mags :)

Brother in Arms

I was not thinking about the damage, but about the possibility of the firing character make corrections to his/her own fire. May be (I'm only know v2.2 rules) lowering one level in the automatic fire task (losing less bullets in a burst, the number depending of size of the burst). Or allowing the character to add a bonus to the "to hit" number in the following shot just after a tracer, in a SA weapon.

As you've said, the major drawback could be lowering one level any observation attempt against the firing character. Or turn it to an automatic task depending of the visibility conditions.

[Targan]

As you've said, the major drawback could be lowering one level any observation attempt against the firing character. Or turn it to an automatic task depending of the visibility conditions.
In Gunmaster if you are firing multiple rounds (whether it is autofire or other) and you can see the fall of shot the bonuses you get effectively help to negate the effects of recoil. Tracer rounds make that even easier.

[Marc]

It seems to me a good and reasonable solution. For Twilight v2.2 automatic fire rules, the completely negation of all the recoil effect seems to me a little to much, but a partial negation of these effects will work. Thanks for the suggestion, Targan!

[Haven]

FYI - I'll be the Targan to Twilight 2013 here :D


So far what i've seen in the Twilight 2013 rules is tracer ammo:

Increases 'threat level' for those that you are shooting at if you're trying to suppress an area. Seeing the bullets overhead as well as being shot at.

This comes into play for the CUF (coolness under fire) and you can supress the enemy and the enemy can suppress you - causing inaction or 'breaking'.

Also....

Using tracer ammo in consecutive attacks increases the chance of sucess by a little bit for each round you shoot at the same target using tracer ammo.

I think they are both Stage III rules

[Marc]

Thanks Haven. In the v2.2 set of rules, a danger zone is the area affected by a burst during an entire turn. In my house-rules based in the v2.2 set of rules, when a characters is voluntarily trying to cross a an active danger zone created by a burst, a coolness roll is needed to simulate the effect of suppressive fire. If failed, the character stays in place and can't attempt to cross. The same is valid if, per example, the character is getting out of cover to return fire from a position affected int he same turn by a danger zone. The roll is 1d6 versus the initiative. I think that I could adjust to 1d6+1 versus initiative if traced involved. Again, thanks for your suggestion. Good to have the 2013 point of view.

[Haven]

CUF is its whole mechanic in Twilight 2013 so it comes into play a lot.

Especially if you're using 'Squad' Rules which are neat.

[Tegyrius]

I'm hoping that the morale rules get a workout. My own group doesn't tend toward Stage III combat complexity, so I haven't gotten to toss around threat tokens.

Keith posted our suppressive fire rules (excerpted from the full morale rules set) on the 93GS LiveJournal (http://93gamesstudio.livejournal.com/13037.html) back in May.

- C.

[Legbreaker]

What's the thoughts on tracer availability in 2000 after several year of war and almost every round having been reloaded several times?
While the normal mix is 1 in 5, several years in, my guess is that's dropped significantly, and possibly to the point of near uselessness. Perhaps tracers are saved for special needs only?

[leonpoi]

I was not thinking about the damage, but about the possibility of the firing character make corrections to his/her own fire. May be (I'm only know v2.2 rules) lowering one level in the automatic fire task (losing less bullets in a burst, the number depending of size of the burst). Or allowing the character to add a bonus to the "to hit" number in the following shot just after a tracer, in a SA weapon.

As you've said, the major drawback could be lowering one level any observation attempt against the firing character. Or turn it to an automatic task depending of the visibility conditions.

I use v2.2 rules. For tracers I give +1 to hit with automatic fire after the first action of shooting. I find +1 is fine and given that automatic fire is 1/4 skill it adds a bonus without being overpowering.

[Arrissen]

Perhaps tracers are saved for special needs only?


Yeah for like marking specific targets by a team leader so as to concentrate firepower or maybe for indicating when your getting to the last few rounds in your magazine in order to facilitate a quick mag change, during an ambush. They are useful in certain circumstances but as stated already they can be a double edged sword, like using an IR laser if the enemy is using night vision.

[Abbott Shaull]

In what way for directing fire or damage? Because a tracer should do as much damage as a ball round except with the possibility of catching dry materials on fire.

As for directing fire every 5th round in a belt of machine gun ammo is supposed to be a tracer. The draw back to tracers is people can see where you are shooting from as well.

The 231 uses straight tracers as that is the only way to direct fire for it when its in the firing port. It's really cool to remove from the vehicle and use with beta C mags :)

Brother in Arms

Oh, NO. Not remove the M231 from the vehicle to use as weapon. Runs and hide before that debates starts...lol

[HorseSoldier]

Tracer ammo is, I would think, exceedingly scarce by 2000. Probably to the point that most units just don't have any available at all or maybe keep some (and other pre-nuke small arms ammo) set aside for major conventional combat ops and use lower quality reloads for marauder suppression and small scale raids and such.

Machine gun sights are mostly pretty crappy if you're free gunning and not working a T&E on a tripod. MGs overcome this by using tracers -- so I wouldn't give a bonus for tracer use, I'd give a penalty for it's absence. The solution would be a spotter with optics calling fall off the shots and making adjustments.

[dragoon500ly]

What's the thoughts on tracer availability in 2000 after several year of war and almost every round having been reloaded several times?
While the normal mix is 1 in 5, several years in, my guess is that's dropped significantly, and possibly to the point of near uselessness. Perhaps tracers are saved for special needs only?

That's my thinking as well, with smalls arms ammo being reloaded, tracers would become a seldom if ever seen item.

A bit o'real life, almost all SAA tracers have different ballistics than normal jacketed rounds. I was always taught that you watched for the dust from the impact and then walked your rounds in, it was faster and thus used less ammo.

Besides, if you pull the tracers from the belt and then make a belt of nothing but tracers, the light show was impressive!

[dragoon500ly]

Oh, NO. Not remove the M231 from the vehicle to use as weapon. Runs and hide before that debates starts...lol

Sound of hatch slamming shut and a paniced scream of "NOT THE DISMOUNTED 231 AGAIN!!!!!!"

The horror, the inhumanity!!!

;)

[Abbott Shaull]

Sound of hatch slamming shut and a paniced scream of "NOT THE DISMOUNTED 231 AGAIN!!!!!!"

The horror, the inhumanity!!!

;)

Yeah but it seems that GDW loved the idea. Strangely enough I would think many of these weapons that had survived would be stripped of anything that might be useful to keeping the M16s around operational.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Machine gun sights are mostly pretty crappy if you're free gunning and not working a T&E on a tripod. MGs overcome this by using tracers -- so I wouldn't give a bonus for tracer use, I'd give a penalty for it's absence. The solution would be a spotter with optics calling fall off the shots and making adjustments.
Machineguns aren't really meant to be accurate in the conventional sense so the sights don't have to be as good as an individual rifle, their purpose after all is to throw a whole lot of lead into an area in a short space of time.

As for tracers, with the chance that an area being gunned up is also kicking up a lot of dust, tracers can help you walk onto target. The Viet Cong and NVA used to have shooters with magazines of 1:1 tracer on either flank of an attack group and then shoot into the target so night attacks could be coordinated.

Tracer ammunition can also be made in your own toolshed if you have the right chemicals and tools. There's an article here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/6389393/Homemade-Tracer-Ammo) about making your own tracers.
Keep in mind that I mention this strictly for educational purposes :D

[dragoon500ly]

Machineguns aren't really meant to be accurate in the conventional sense so the sights don't have to be as good as an individual rifle, their purpose after all is to throw a whole lot of lead into an area in a short space of time.

As for tracers, with the chance that an area being gunned up is also kicking up a lot of dust, tracers can help you walk onto target. The Viet Cong and NVA used to have shooters with magazines of 1:1 tracer on either flank of an attack group and then shoot into the target so night attacks could be coordinated.

Tracer ammunition can also be made in your own toolshed if you have the right chemicals and tools. There's an article here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/6389393/Homemade-Tracer-Ammo) about making your own tracers.
Keep in mind that I mention this strictly for educational purposes :D

Never really had that many problems with dust kicking up on the target, we always had it hammered into our semi-thick heads to fire short bursts of 2-3 seconds duration, then reacquire the target with the sights and let fly again. At the time I was in there were a lot of Vietnam vets still in service and almost to a man, they loathed tracers. "Sure they let you track in on the target, they also let the target track in on you." was a common comment on the ole firing range.

Boils down to what the gunner wanted to use, if there was time to prepare the belts, then tracers would be pulled. The real question is just how much time a unit reloading its own brass would spend in making tracers.

[Legbreaker]

I'm fairly sure that reloaded tracers wouldn't have the same ballistics as factory produced ones also, so chances are they'd actually harm accuracy to some degree.
It's my understanding (based on what I learnt nearly 20 years ago and observed on the range) that tracers don't begin to glow until they've travelled approximately 100 metres (give or take). Only a fraction of a second, but in close contacts they're completely useless.

[dragoon500ly]

From the gunner's seat it always seemed that tracers would start almost as soon as they entered the periscope field of view. I would guesstimate the tracers are more likely to start in they 20-25 meter bracket.

Always enjoyed watching Ma Deuce tracers....because the damned things would go every where except where the ball rounds were striking. The M-240 stuff seemed a bit more accurate, but was still off by a margin.

[Adm.Lee]

Besides, if you pull the tracers from the belt and then make a belt of nothing but tracers, the light show was impressive!

On a different gaming forum, a fellow who claimed to be a Vietnam vet said that his whole company opened up a 'mad minute' with every M14 loaded with an all-tracer magazine. He said it looked like Star Wars, and really spooked the VC!

[Legbreaker]

There's obviously variations in between calibres, chemical composition and manufacturers, but as the eye can't register things moving very fast, I tend to believe what we were taught over what may have been observed.

[Panther Al]

Reminds me of a Gunnery at Carson years ago. We had to pull all the tracers from *all* the 30 cal in the troop and gather it up in one area to turn in at the end of gunnery since weather conditions indicated that tracers might start a fire. Well, at the end of gunnery (And personally shooting a 901) we had a few days of rain. Platoon Leader looks at me and says, "Hey, we still got all that tracer? And do we still have that shoot out barrel?" I think to myself: Oh, I like what he is thinking: So, we linked up a full 7k tracer belt, soaked a roll of TP in JP8, stuck it on a heat spike, and really gave the troop a show at our last night fire! At the end of the belt (Shot in a number of very long bursts) the barrel for the 240 was a smoothbore. Plenty of ass chewing from higher, but, to give the PL credit, he took the heat round, telling higher we did it as his instructions. He was safe: Daddy had stars on his shoulders.

[dragoon500ly]

On a different gaming forum, a fellow who claimed to be a Vietnam vet said that his whole company opened up a 'mad minute' with every M14 loaded with an all-tracer magazine. He said it looked like Star Wars, and really spooked the VC!

I've heard that story at several veteran conventions too....it's pretty much a universal standard that its 1 in 5...so when you some a hundred tracers flying your way.....I'd be thinking about those five hundred bullets I don't see too!!!

[dragoon500ly]

Reminds me of a Gunnery at Carson years ago. We had to pull all the tracers from *all* the 30 cal in the troop and gather it up in one area to turn in at the end of gunnery since weather conditions indicated that tracers might start a fire. Well, at the end of gunnery (And personally shooting a 901) we had a few days of rain. Platoon Leader looks at me and says, "Hey, we still got all that tracer? And do we still have that shoot out barrel?" I think to myself: Oh, I like what he is thinking: So, we linked up a full 7k tracer belt, soaked a roll of TP in JP8, stuck it on a heat spike, and really gave the troop a show at our last night fire! At the end of the belt (Shot in a number of very long bursts) the barrel for the 240 was a smoothbore. Plenty of ass chewing from higher, but, to give the PL credit, he took the heat round, telling higher we did it as his instructions. He was safe: Daddy had stars on his shoulders.

And that's game, set and match to the Looie!!!


We used to do the TP roll soaked in gas when we fired HEAT rounds...IMMPRESSIVE muzzle blast!!!!

[dragoon500ly]

There's obviously variations in between calibres, chemical composition and manufacturers, but as the eye can't register things moving very fast, I tend to believe what we were taught over what may have been observed.

Too true....

But I am reminded of hand grenade training back in basic...our drill sergeant told us that the grenade had a five second fuse. He pulled the pin, let fly the safety lever and threw....a minute later it finally blew. Base EOD got called in and they pulled the firing assemblies and inspected the fuses....instead of the correct fuse, the manufactuer had substituted a longer-burning fuse.

Training is good, but never forget that your weapon system is built by the lowest bidder!

And there is an excellent chance that the factory worker is hung over and having a bad day!!

[Legbreaker]

Australian troops early on in Vietnam had all their grenades pulled - apparently instantaneous fuses had gotten into the mix and after one had it go off in his hand....

Good news was they still had claymores - wire them up before going into an assault, throw into the enemy bunker and hit the trigger. MUCH more satisfying than a grrenade. :D

[Panther Al]

And that's game, set and match to the Looie!!!


We used to do the TP roll soaked in gas when we fired HEAT rounds...IMMPRESSIVE muzzle blast!!!!

yeah: you should have heard the tower spas out when we opened up, fireball bigger than the tank, the tracers loaded up like they was left a trace that looked more like a laser beam than anything else. Tower was totally spastastic.

[Abbott Shaull]

The wake up call for hand grenade training was how they express the fuse was suppose to be 5 seconds, but if you were cooking them off. Well if you got to 3 it was about time to get rid of the damn thing as they would state the normal fuse time was 3-5 seconds...lol That a wake up call they restated a few times even though they had just told us, the fuse were suppose to be 5 second fuses.

So yeah one of those time where we got the items were being made by the lowest bidder....

[Abbott Shaull]

yeah: you should have heard the tower spas out when we opened up, fireball bigger than the tank, the tracers loaded up like they was left a trace that looked more like a laser beam than anything else. Tower was totally spastastic.

Oh, I bet. Good thing the Lt. knew someone with Stars on their shoulder. Otherwise, it probably would of been the end of his career for admitting that the crew were under his orders...lol

[dragoon500ly]

Had a chance to use grenades again in Germany, but the NCOIC was an ex-Special Forces type with four tours in Vietnam under his belt. The day of the training, he had all of the grenades lined up on tables and started pulling firing assemblies. He then ignited the fuses and it was shocking how bad the difference, everything from 1 second all the way up to eleven seconds.

He then pulled a few coils of fuse, cut 2-3 lengths and burned them and got the right length for 5 seconds and then had us cut and install the correct lengths.

Two lessons; how to extract and reset fuses in grenades, and never trust the morons in the ammo plant!

[Legbreaker]

...everything from 1 second all the way up to eleven seconds.
Which is why it's never a good idea to cook off a grenade.

[dragoon500ly]

Which is why it's never a good idea to cook off a grenade.

Unless you have timed and cut your own fuze!

[Legbreaker]

Even then you're taking your life into your hands. Fuses only retain their timing for a relatively short period - you can't stick them on the shelf after fitting the new fuse and expect them to still be the same a few months later. Humidity, etc works it's magic and effects the burn time, potentially even preventing detonation in some cases.
Unless you're using the grenades immediately, or at least in the next couple of days, you're better off treating them very cautiously in my opinion, and not risk taking off your hand.

Factory fuses may vary in delay, but at least they're almost guaranteed to work.

[Targan]

Most of my experience with explosives has been as a civilian shotfirer (powder monkey) but I have been reading this thread with great interest. I agree that the burn time and reliability of most if not all chemical fuzes will change over time.

The biggest individual charge I ever set off was just under 30kg (mostly ANFO with a few kilograms of Powergel primer charges) and that produced a pretty darn impressive explosion. I've set off more than that in one go as part of a team but not all in one explosion (coordinated timed charges with quarter and half second delays between each blast). And det cord is great fun.

[dragoon500ly]

Even then you're taking your life into your hands. Fuses only retain their timing for a relatively short period - you can't stick them on the shelf after fitting the new fuse and expect them to still be the same a few months later. Humidity, etc works it's magic and effects the burn time, potentially even preventing detonation in some cases.
Unless you're using the grenades immediately, or at least in the next couple of days, you're better off treating them very cautiously in my opinion, and not risk taking off your hand.

Factory fuses may vary in delay, but at least they're almost guaranteed to work.

The replacement fuze was regular grenade fuze in its original shipping coil. The only thing completed different were measured sections were cut off and burned...at least we know that this particular lot of fuze would burn for 5 seconds!

[dragoon500ly]

Most of my experience with explosives has been as a civilian shotfirer (powder monkey) but I have been reading this thread with great interest. I agree that the burn time and reliability of most if not all chemical fuzes will change over time.

The biggest individual charge I ever set off was just under 30kg (mostly ANFO with a few kilograms of Powergel primer charges) and that produced a pretty darn impressive explosion. I've set off more than that in one go as part of a team but not all in one explosion (coordinated timed charges with quarter and half second delays between each blast). And det cord is great fun.

My instructor on the demo course loved det cord!!! He gave a demonstration once in which he took an entire 152m roll of det cord...the selected ambush site was treated to a series of loops and swirls (all carefully camouflaged) and salted with sticks of C-4; then a few key trees were treated to five wraps of cord and camo'd again....it truely was an impressive bang!