2000 vs. 2013 vs. 2020 vs. 20??

[Neal5x5]

It's pretty obvious from reading this forum that the setting history of the Twilight: 2000 games you're playing now has been tweaked to fit your group and style. What about the actual year of the game? I'm curious to know if more people are playing a near-future version of Twilight or if they are playing a year 2000 game. I think there's good reasons for both, but I'd like to get a better understanding of why people choose to run games set in either period.

Forgive me if this has already been covered in another thread - I'm still pretty new here.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'm sure a post-Soviet world a mere five years after the publication of Twilight:2000 would have seemed completely bonkers to the folks at GDW (and indeed 99.9% of the world's population at the time), however, I find the timeline(s) of T2k13 a little too far-fetched for my tastes.

Plus there's a lot of "the now" to factor in to how the world of T2k13 works...it's easier for me to look back on T2k as a divergent history (it could have happened) than T2k13 as "this could happen"...

That's just my feeling on it. All have their merits, though. T2k13, strictly from a "gun porn" standpoint has it's armored vehicles more anchored in reality - no M1 "Giraffe", no "Diana ADA" and on and on. The T:2k designs represent a mindset of the cold war continuing on through the 80s and 90s before going hot in '96...so stuff like the TUSK for M1, even the Stryker, Humvee variants and so on would likely have been suggested and rejected prior to the war in the T2k universe.

[The Rifleman]

Agreed with the above post. I can't see how a world would make sense. Its more an "alternate" reality based game now, as opposed to a future one. I suppose one could create a new "alternate" reality with a soviet resurgence and WWIII.

I belive that the would of Merc2000 makes more sense to your line of thinking. That concept, a world defined by an economic collapse, could easily fit our possible future.

[Raellus]

I prefer the alternative history/parallel universe of Twilight 2000. I got the v1.0 boxed set in 1986, when I was eleven or twelve years old. At the time, it seemed that WWIII could be just around the corner...

So, my T2KU is a bit of an extension of my childhood worldview- a universe in which the Berlin Wall did not fall and the Soviet Union did not collapse. The Cold War continued into the '90s, heated up, and boiled over. Really, I guess, it's a worst-case scenario from 1987 or so preserved in amber, with some "new" military technologies thrown in. It seemed very plausible when I was a kid, and that's the world I prefer to inhabit now, as an adult.

I wouldn't mind a game set in the near future (relative to today), but the lead-in would have to be plausible, the same way the original T2K was when it was first released.

[Snake Eyes]

Assuming one needs a timeline in the first place, and I assert that one does not, of the canon timelines I prefer good old v1. I never acknowledged the need to update it to account for then-current events for 2.0/2.2 but it doesn't really make that much difference to the end state in which the characters begin play. The 2013 timeline chapped a lot of asses around here and elesewhere, but I can take it or leave it for the same reason noted above - it mostly doesn't matter in the context of gameplay. At least not in any tactical context. Anything beyond the immediate battlefield is simply going to require some suspension of disbelief.

That said, I'm not currently running anything. But if I was, I prefer the Reflex mechanics of 2013, and would use them with only the slightest of modification for any timeline of the series and/or any of the alternate scenarios outlined in the GPS Survey. I figure it should work for anything set in the modern era out to the next 10 or so years of weapons development without too much effort.

[Cdnwolf]

After 3 months of looking I finally found my Hardcovered copy of TWL2013 (Yes I was one of those whom actually bought the book) and think the timeline was it's weak point and the book layout too spread out to find anything easily, but its reflex system did work well for any situation.

[Legbreaker]

T2K is my preference for most of the reasons above. To me there's not enough significant differences to play between V1 and V2.x to worry about - the end result is the same and PCs probably don't really care by then that Germany did/did not reunify (for example) prior to the outbreak of European hostilities.
Alternate timeline is for me the best way to look at it - crystal ball gazing into the future at this point in the Twilight story is too fraught with potential/probable hiccups.

[Targan]

After 3 months of looking I finally found my Hardcovered copy of TWL2013 (Yes I was one of those whom actually bought the book) and think the timeline was it's weak point and the book layout too spread out to find anything easily, but its reflex system did work well for any situation.

I own a hardcover copy of TW2013 too and I agree with your assessment, Cdnwolf.

[Saulster]

Hey guys,

I must say that I really thought the game mechanic is pretty crunchy with all the combat rules that you can throw in. Reminds me of an old FGU game called Space Opera that I ran for 25 years. Lots of charts and stuff. 2013 has a lot of rules but you can kick out what you don't like. I like the fact that the guy who made the book. Basically it was one guy, really tried to support the product but the book just did not sell in large enough numbers and he did not retain the rights to the name.
But if you live in Northern California and are free next weekend I am running a Twilight 2013 game at a Con called DunDraCon in San Ramon California. I hope to run games here and there at local cons. Also would like to discuss what rules you like, don't like, would and would not use in your Twilight 2013 game.
Also I see that the Morrow Project another old post apolcalyptic game has been funded by Kick Starter.

Saulster

[Targan]

Welcome to the forum, Saulster!

I like the fact that the guy who made the book. Basically it was one guy, really tried to support the product but the book just did not sell in large enough numbers and he did not retain the rights to the name.

That's not quite accurate. It's true that the team that wrote Twilight:2013 was a small group of people but it wasn't just one guy. In fact, one of the "other guys" who wrote important parts of the rules, Tegyrius, is a regular poster on this forum and is definitely the "go-to" guy for information on the system.

[Cdnwolf]

Hey guys,


Also I see that the Morrow Project another old post apolcalyptic game has been funded by Kick Starter.

Saulster

Oh great another game to add to my library.

[Rainbow Six]

Whilst I'm not playing the game at the moment, everything I write is set in the year 2000 and is based on the V1 timeline - like Raellus I have a nostalgia for the classic Cold War timeline (although ironically v1 is the only version of the game that I don't own - I have soft copies of both versions of V2 and 2013 that I got from Drivethru RPG. To be fair, I got the 2013 pdf more out of curiosity than any likliehood that I would ever use it).

[Tegyrius]

That's not quite accurate. It's true that the team that wrote Twilight:2013 was a small group of people but it wasn't just one guy. In fact, one of the "other guys" who wrote important parts of the rules, Tegyrius, is a regular poster on this forum and is definitely the "go-to" guy for information on the system.

Several of the other contributors are here too. They just aren't as mouthy as I am.

- C.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm not interested in running a PBP, but I would be interested in a 2013 timeline with v2.2 rules.

[cavtroop]

I'm a big fan of the Twilight:2013 reflex rules. I'm planning on running a short (2-3 session) 'campaign' here before summer I hope, I'll be using the reflex system from 2013 with the basic flavor of background from Twilight:2000 - just pushing it ahead in time 13 years with some handwaving :)

For anyone that cares, the hardcover of 2013 is on Amazon right now for $6. I just bought two more for the players (to add to the two I already had :) )

[Tegyrius]

But if you live in Northern California and are free next weekend I am running a Twilight 2013 game at a Con called DunDraCon in San Ramon California. I hope to run games here and there at local cons. Also would like to discuss what rules you like, don't like, would and would not use in your Twilight 2013 game.

Bumping the thread for a con report... :cool:

- C.

[Cdnwolf]

Several of the other contributors are here too. They just aren't as mouthy as I am.

- C.

:p;) Who you???

[Saulster]

Hey Guys,

I read an article somewhere where the publisher was saying he did not decide to keep the rights to Twilight license. I know that many people were involved in making an rpg. Writers, artists, etc. But I got the inference that it was a one man show, I guess as publisher??

Saul

[Tegyrius]

93 Games Studio was owned and operated exclusively by Keith Taylor (Smokewolf), yes. He handled layout/production, writing on the first two chapters, and all "corporate" business functions. All other contributors were either freelancers under contract or working solely for publication credits and the chance to do something cool.

- C.

[Saulster]

Hey Teg,

Yea that is what I hear about writing for RPG rules. I know a few people that try and only a very few that actually get paid. Ken Hite is one person I know by going to Cons. He is a very nice guy. I know another that also did some writing for CoC years ago but made his money writing scripts for cartoon of all things. Pretty funny. He also goes to conventions here in N.Cal but he lives in L.A. of course. Still I think its pretty cool that you worked on the rules, though it would have been better to get paid.

Saul

[Tegyrius]

Oh, I've been getting paid to work on games for about 17 years now. That's what I meant by "under contract." Deliver words, receive money. In theory. Of course, the game industry is more of a subsidized hobby than a real business field.

- C.

[Neal5x5]

Oh, I've been getting paid to work on games for about 17 years now. That's what I meant by "under contract." Deliver words, receive money. In theory. Of course, the game industry is more of a subsidized hobby than a real business field.

- C.

Gasp! I thought game designers were all like Gary Jackson in Knights of the Dinner Table - eating condor egg omelets and driving sports cars with your supermodel wife/mistress to your weekend mansion.

Oh no, the fantasy has been shattered!

[kato13]

Gasp! I thought game designers were all like Gary Jackson in Knights of the Dinner Table - eating condor egg omelets and driving sports cars with your supermodel wife/mistress to your weekend mansion.

Oh no, the fantasy has been shattered!

I did once see a Lamborghini with the license plate "E GYGAX".

[Tegyrius]

Gasp! I thought game designers were all like Gary Jackson in Knights of the Dinner Table - eating condor egg omelets and driving sports cars with your supermodel wife/mistress to your weekend mansion.

Oh no, the fantasy has been shattered!

Yeah, I had that dream until I interned at the Wolf. Then I found out that most people working in RPG publishing companies could make more money as public school teachers.

(I note that strictly as a salary comparison, not to trash on educators.)

- C.

[Targan]

Yeah, I had that dream until I interned at the Wolf. Then I found out that most people working in RPG publishing companies could make more money as public school teachers.

So if it's not an impolite question, what do you do to keep the wolves from the door when you're not writing RPG content, Clayton?

Edit: I'm pretty sure you've mentioned it before but I've forgotten :D

[Cdnwolf]

He has a stint as a male stripper and is a boy toy to a 90 year old widow.... OOOOPPSSS thats me not him!!

[Bullet Magnet]

Yeah, I had that dream until I interned at the Wolf. Then I found out that most people working in RPG publishing companies could make more money as public school teachers.

(I note that strictly as a salary comparison, not to trash on educators.)

- C.


Depending on what district you might be talking about, some of those teachers get paid very nicely, then add in the bennies like medical coverage and so on.
Granted, they may need it, considering the crap they gotta put up with...like the students. (we thought we were troublesome in the 1980s....we were saints compared to students now)

[Tegyrius]

So if it's not an impolite question, what do you do to keep the wolves from the door when you're not writing RPG content, Clayton?

Edit: I'm pretty sure you've mentioned it before but I've forgotten :D

Until recently, I was a technical writer in the software industry - started off writing end user documentation, then switched to project documentation and specifications. I've had about all the fun I can have in that role, so I'm now working on a midlife career change. I'm three-quarters of the way through a master's in emergency management and currently work for a company that does several technical and policy analysis jobs for FEMA (the Federal Emergency Management Agency, more or less our equivalent of your Emergency Management Australia).

- C.

[Cdnwolf]

Until recently, I was a technical writer in the software industry - started off writing end user documentation
- C.

Now come on everyone... put up your hands if you have ever fully read the end user document for anything???

:p

[Tegyrius]

Now come on everyone... put up your hands if you have ever fully read the end user document for anything???

Yeah. I used to describe my job as "writing things that no one ever reads."

- C.

[James Langham]

Perhaps slightly off topic but if anyone knows an RPG in need of a writer please point them in my direction... Will quite happily write for the kudos (and ideally a copy of the product) right now.

[Raellus]

Depending on what district you might be talking about, some of those teachers get paid very nicely, then add in the bennies like medical coverage and so on.

I've been a public school teacher for 11 years. My annual salary has decreased in each of the last six years. I now make less than I did when I first started. And my employer-subsidized medical insurance plan gets worse every year. This year, I've had to pay over $5000 out of pocket for medical expenses, and I'm a relatively healthy guy. It's worse in some states than it is in others. Arizona, my home state, is consistently ranked around 48 (out of 50) for education spending. Unfortunately, in my country, education is less respected, less valued, and less well-funded than the military. Truthfully, interacting with teenagers is the least painful part of my job.

That's why I prefer the v1.0 timeline- it reminds me of the simple good vs. evil worldview of my late Cold War youth.

[Tegyrius]

I've been a public school teacher for 11 years. My annual salary has decreased in each of the last six years. I now make less than I did when I first started. And my employer-subsidized medical insurance plan gets worse every year. This year, I've had to pay over $5000 out of pocket for medical expenses, and I'm a relatively healthy guy. It's worse in some states than it is in others. Arizona, my home state, is consistently ranked around 48 (out of 50) for education spending. Unfortunately, in my country, education is less respected, less valued, and less well-funded than the military. Truthfully, interacting with teenagers is the least painful part of my job.

This is more the salary model I had in mind with my original comment, unfortunately. And I'm going to link back to this thread the next time some ignorant git starts going off about RPG publishers being staffed by money-grubbing one-percenters.

- C.

[Targan]

I've been a public school teacher for 11 years. My annual salary has decreased in each of the last six years. I now make less than I did when I first started. And my employer-subsidized medical insurance plan gets worse every year.

Wait, what? How can they do that to you? Man, if you can stomach living without guns you should move here. We value our teachers and Australia has universal health care (which hasn't resulted in our economy collapsing or a communist takeover or whatever other loony, scare-mongering reasons your right wing legislators use against bringing in affordable healthcare for all Americans).

[Cdnwolf]

I've been a public school teacher for 11 years. My annual salary has decreased in each of the last six years. I now make less than I did when I first started. And my employer-subsidized medical insurance plan gets worse every year. This year, I've had to pay over $5000 out of pocket for medical expenses, and I'm a relatively healthy guy. It's worse in some states than it is in others. Arizona, my home state, is consistently ranked around 48 (out of 50) for education spending. Unfortunately, in my country, education is less respected, less valued, and less well-funded than the military. Truthfully, interacting with teenagers is the least painful part of my job.

That's why I prefer the v1.0 timeline- it reminds me of the simple good vs. evil worldview of my late Cold War youth.


WOW in Ontario Canada, the teachers pension plan was so overflowing with cash they bought one of the NHL richest hockey teams.

[Bullet Magnet]

I've been a public school teacher for 11 years. My annual salary has decreased in each of the last six years. I now make less than I did when I first started. And my employer-subsidized medical insurance plan gets worse every year. This year, I've had to pay over $5000 out of pocket for medical expenses, and I'm a relatively healthy guy. It's worse in some states than it is in others. Arizona, my home state, is consistently ranked around 48 (out of 50) for education spending. Unfortunately, in my country, education is less respected, less valued, and less well-funded than the military. Truthfully, interacting with teenagers is the least painful part of my job.

That's why I prefer the v1.0 timeline- it reminds me of the simple good vs. evil worldview of my late Cold War youth.


Yes, but please note in my original post about this, I said SOME teachers. I'm in WI, which you may recall had that big thing about the teacher contracts not long ago. During that time, here we got some idea of what they get paid up here.
Also, not long after, we got to hear about teachers in Chicago. The average salary there is twice what the average is for everyone else from what I saw.

Now, I'll give you credit for doing a job I don't think I could do. At its best, I probably could, but as it is, I have the feeling I wouldn't last a full year. You are right that teachers are less respected than the military in this country, and that says a lot.
My own experience in school was one that made the 1st edition T2K universe seem almost bright and cheery. I know it wasn't the fault of (all) the teachers. Many of the gripes I have about that I've found are because of policies from the ivory tower. I could go on for a long time about this, but I think we all come to this board for other things rather than my rantings about this subject.

[Cdnwolf]

Ummm what was the original topic in this thread about again??? :firedevil