This is welcoming home the troops?

[dragoon500ly]

This is not a political rant, simply an article that I saw on the DailyMail UK website that I thought merited a mention...

It concerns a British infantry battalion that had returned from its tour of duty in Afghanistan, these soldiers had done a magnificent job and had suffered the loss of sixteen brave comrades. Upon their return, they were awarded the freedom of their city and marched in a parade, celebrating its final tour of duty. After the parade….several of the squaddies decided to stop at a local pub, only to be told that the pub would not serve military personnel. Needless to say, this was not a very popular decision, especially with a battalion of soldiers, their families, was well as the citizens of the Borough of Havering.

The owners of the pub later made a statement apologizing for the incident and advising that the team members involved have been “retrained” and that “The Bull” proudly supports England’s military.

One is reminded of something written by a chap named Kipling….

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

With the deepest respects to our Cousins across the Sea!

[Schone23666]

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!



Hopefully this was just a misunderstanding, and nothing more. But if it wasn't...

Couldn't have said it better, Mr. Kipling. :(

[raketenjagdpanzer]

How long until the spitting starts?

[dragoon500ly]

You know, there has always been a lot of debate about the spitting on returning veterans during the Vietnam War. You hear the story, and there are members of the former Peace Movement who state that they did this....

But taking to numerous buddies at the VFW....more than one has stated, that "if any of the peaceniks @&(*$@%$@! SOBs had spit on me, they would have woke up on the floor!"

Needless to say, the next time I have to travel to England, I'll be making a point to stop by this place and tell them that I will not be using their fine establishment!

If veterans dont support each other, rest assured, the damned civilians won't!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

One of the dirty little secrets of the Vietnam war is that it was largely a volunteer military that went. The mental image promulgated by the left of poor blacks being rounded up out of urban neighborhoods and used as cannon fodder doesn't track. Most of the vets I know did multiple (volunteer) hitches.

Where this ties in to what you'd said is that most of the vets I do know who did go and then returned for multiple hitches did it to keep the faith with their fellow soldiers - because the perception was nobody at home cared.

(note: I've only known 3-4 Vietnam vets, so I recognize the second paragraph is probably statistically insignificant, and I am not trying to speak from a position of authority)

[Legbreaker]

With regard to Australian Vietnam experience, although we had conscription at the time, only those conscripts who volunteered (after being conscripted) for overseas duty went - all others served within Australian borders, most (if not all) within the reserves.
Regular, career soldiers on the other hand didn't get a choice (and rightly so - they chose to be soldiers in the first place).

[Mahatatain]

The owners of the pub later made a statement apologizing for the incident and advising that the team members involved have been “retrained” and that “The Bull” proudly supports England’s military.
That is a lesson in how to alienate customers......

There is such a thing as bad PR.

One of the dirty little secrets of the Vietnam war is that it was largely a volunteer military that went. The mental image promulgated by the left of poor blacks being rounded up out of urban neighborhoods and used as cannon fodder doesn't track. Most of the vets I know did multiple (volunteer) hitches.
I didn't know this. Very interesting!

[simonmark6]

I don't like what happened to these men, they should have been welcomed home properly.

However, MOD regulations specify that Uniforms should not be worn in pubs without prior authorisation. I have been in the pub with uniformed soldiers after Armistace Marches and they have always been specifically told it's OK to serve uniformed soldiers. On Carnivals, where there isn't an authorised pub, the soldiers with us changed before having a drink.

Pubs can be prosecuted for allowing troops in uniform to drink and whilst I disagree with it, it seems unfair to vilify civilians for disrespecting serving soldiers when they are following MOD rules:

This is an extract from the RN regs (the emphasis is mine):
e. Occasions on which Uniform is Not to be Worn.
(1) On leave.
(2) Visits to licensed premises (including when not consuming alcohol), except
when specifically approved by the Chain of Command.
(3) Representing a third party e.g. part-time employment outside working hours.
(4) Functions where fancy dress is worn; the wearing of uniform of obsolete
design which is clearly distinguishable from the pattern currently worn is,
however, permitted.
(5) Carnival processions and other occasions when the reputation or political
impartiality of the Armed Forces might be brought into question e.g. political
meetings.
(6) Hitchhiking.
(7) When collecting charitable donations from the general public for non-Service charities. It is prohibited to use public assets, including Service manpower, in support of commercial activities or fundraising for private charities, both of which are considered private activity conducted at individuals' own risk and expense.
(8) Individuals wishing to wear uniform when collecting donations for official
Service charities are to seek authorisation from the Chain of Command. It would be usual for permission to be given in such circumstances; however, if there is any doubt as to the Service status of the charity concerned, the Chain of Command

[Snake Eyes]

Figures there was more to that story.

[simonmark6]

It's happened several times: six Royal Welsch Fusillier pallbearers were turned away from a pub where they tried to get a coffee after burying a comrade who had been killed in Afghanistan. I think the whole thing is wrong with some sort of lee way given to Publicans and troops.

My opinion is that if you trust the troops enough to risk their lives to defend us, you trust them enough not to get pissed in uniform and bring the service into disrepute. The MOD is a grown up ministry however and I suppose they have their reasons.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

That is a lesson in how to alienate customers......

There is such a thing as bad PR.


I didn't know this. Very interesting!

http://www.vvof.org/factsvnv.htm

I'm not sure of where their numbers come from. But if they're accurate, then it paints a far different picture than many would have you believe about what was going on "over there".

[avantman42]

This is not a political rant, simply an article that I saw on the DailyMail UK website that I thought merited a mention...
The Daily Mail isn't known for balanced and reasonable reporting. Quite the opposite, unfortunately. Back in February, they reported that "Falklands risks fresh spat with Argentina as nation seeks to get its own passports". There was no such plan - the editor of the Penguin News, the Falkland Islands newspaper, hadn't even heard of it (http://russellphillips.wordpress.com/2012/02/14/irresponsible-journalism-at-the-daily-mail/).

proudly supports England’s military.
It's not "England's" military. It's Britain's, or Great Britain's, or the United Kingdom's military. England doesn't have a military. I have some Scottish friends who get very worked up about people referring to England when they mean the UK.

[Olefin]

Was with my grandfather and his brother in 1971 when a hippie and his buddy threw their drinks into the face of a returning vet who had just got back and called him a baby killer.

Lets just say what my grandfather and great uncle did to them could be termed one of the great beatings of the 1970's. (Grandfather and great uncle both being WWII combat vets, the great uncle being in the second wave on D-Day at Omaha)

[dragoon500ly]

I don't like what happened to these men, they should have been welcomed home properly.

However, MOD regulations specify that Uniforms should not be worn in pubs without prior authorisation. I have been in the pub with uniformed soldiers after Armistace Marches and they have always been specifically told it's OK to serve uniformed soldiers. On Carnivals, where there isn't an authorised pub, the soldiers with us changed before having a drink.

Pubs can be prosecuted for allowing troops in uniform to drink and whilst I disagree with it, it seems unfair to vilify civilians for disrespecting serving soldiers when they are following MOD rules:

The article didn't mention if the troops were in Class Bs (walking out dress) or in BDUs, so there is some question as to the exact chain of events. The article simply mentioned that after the parade, some 15 soldiers stopped by the pub, the article hints that this was a regular stopping place for the soldiers. So perhaps the pub crew was not entirely to blame?

But there have already been several instances in the US of returning GIs getting the same treatment...A MacDonald's refusing to serve GIs at the drive thru?!?!?! A Wal Mart door greeter, giving soldiers and their families a hard time, because the greeter did not support the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan, just to name a couple in the last three years. In each case, the management always apoligized, offered gift cards and "retrained" their crews. And then there are those all-so brave individuals who think that the best way to stop a war is to egg the house of a GI, vandalize their car or plant protest signs in their yard (the one that inflamed me was "I hope your murdering son is killed by a IED").

To be certain, there are those individuals who go above and beyond, helping out a GI, one returning veteran on leave from Iraq had missed his connection due to bad weather, some nameless businessman, listened in one the converstation as the GI explained that he was on emergency leave and his wife was in the hospital delivering their first child, stepped forward and gave his ticket to the soldier, and thanked him for his service and then walked away.

Don't blame the soldiers, of all of the professions, the military is the one that really doesn't want to fight a war, after all, they are far too familier with the cost. If you want to blame somebody, blame the politicians who refuse to adopt a long term security policy, not to mention, their knee-jerk antics whenever a crisis blows up. And the sad fact of a demoracy, is that we, the voters, elect these idiots into office, which says alot about the intelligence of many of the voters.

I believe it was George Patton, viewing the aftermath of a bloody fight who stated "I wish that I could bottle up the stench of a battlefield, and store the canisters in Washington, and whenever a Senator or Congressman starts talking about going to war, I could give the dumb SOBs a whiff of the results."

[HorseSoldier]

To be certain, there are those individuals who go above and beyond, helping out a GI, one returning veteran on leave from Iraq had missed his connection due to bad weather, some nameless businessman, listened in one the converstation as the GI explained that he was on emergency leave and his wife was in the hospital delivering their first child, stepped forward and gave his ticket to the soldier, and thanked him for his service and then walked away.

Post-9/11 I've had multiple occasions where myself and fellow soldiers grabbing lunch had a civilian offer to pay for our meals or do so anonymously, had a guy offer to swap his first class seat with my coach one while heading home on midtour leave, and stuff like that.

On the other hand, that sort of giving seems to usually occur more often the further away from garrison you get. In towns outside military bases, military personnel are less exotic and less celebrated. I don't have a hard time wrapping my head around a pub frequented by soldiers seeing guys walking in wearing uniforms and therefore violating a regulation they are familiar with and opting to decline service -- I'm not saying it's the right thing given this particular scenario, but the same sort of thing wouldn't be unusual for life in Fayetteville, NC, or Hinesville, GA, etc.

My opinion is that if you trust the troops enough to risk their lives to defend us, you trust them enough not to get pissed in uniform and bring the service into disrepute. The MOD is a grown up ministry however and I suppose they have their reasons.

Therein lies the rub. US bar culture isn't the same as UK pub culture, but over here give young soldiers access to alcohol and there will be a steady stream of incidents -- one of those 5% (or some similar number) spoiling things for the other 95% and such. Like Kipling noted in Tommy, soldiers aren't much different from everyone else, and the incidents won't be remarkably different from the range of incidents you get from that same age segment of the population as a whole, except that their actions have the potential to reflect poorly on or embarrass the military.

[dragoon500ly]

One of the dirty little secrets of the Vietnam war is that it was largely a volunteer military that went. The mental image promulgated by the left of poor blacks being rounded up out of urban neighborhoods and used as cannon fodder doesn't track. Most of the vets I know did multiple (volunteer) hitches.

"Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War " by James Dunnigan and Albert Nofi has the best research that I've seen on the so-called "Black Army" myth.

Their viewpoint is that the notion that the Vietnam War was fought by a "Black Army" was a myth created strictly for the political purposes of the anti-war movement.

Historically, Afro-Americans have been kept out of the military due to racism. When they were allowed to serve, they were placed in support services. Even at the height of World War II, black combatants numbered less than3% of the total manpower committed to action. When President Truman issued his order ending segregation in the military in 1947, these numbers began to change.

During the time in question, Afro Americans numbered between 10 and 12% of the total population, during the years leading up to Vietnam, the percentage of Afro Americans serving in the Army climbed to 17%. They were most visible in the volunteer specialties, such as airborne, who would receive additional pay for hazardous duty (thus resulting in the press reports of all-black platoons of paratroopers).

During the first two years of serious American involvement (1964-66), Afro Americans comprsied reoughly one fifth of those killed in action. Losses were particularly heavy among the NCOs. As the draft started to impact the military, the percentage of troops who were black fell, as more whites were drafted, or volunteered for the draft. Throughout the Vietnam War, the racial distribution of combat dead was this:

Whites 86%
Blacks 12.5%
Others 1.2%

Going by the numbers, the Afro-American population did not make up most of the Army and certainly, "all black" units were not the norm during the war.

After the Vietnam War, the numbers had changed yet again, with whites forming a substantial majority of the combat units while nonwhite troops were volunteering for the support services (and better access to technical training). By the 1980s, the military raised its educational qualifications for enlistment, thus making just about everyone eligible for technical training. Many recruits who would never have been able to afford to attend college used the military to gain access to higher levels training, thus putting to an end the often repeated refrain of "dying for the white man" to rest.

At least until the Gulf War.

There the media picked up on the laments of the anti-war movement that "black soldiers would suffer disproportionate losses." The Pentagon was quick off the mark pointing out that the situation had changed, but the media ran with their "story".

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Speaking of Black and special forces - James Marshall Hendrix (1942-1970) was an Airborne Ranger. By his own admission he was a poor soldier but he stood the watch and was honorably discharged after his hitch.

:)

[HorseSoldier]

Once the military desegregated a military career was probably the best, and possibly in some cases, only, real avenue for upward mobility for a lot of black Americans. While the South was particularly bad in that era for civil rights issues, discrimination was pervasive nationwide.

While the casualties suffered might have been proportional to the overall population demographics in the US, those losses in the black community had a different cultural impact, first culling from the ranks of those with the drive and initiative to try and better themselves, and then, with draftees, killing young men at a point when improvements in civil rights provided the possibility that those killed might have been able to pursue civilian avenues of advancement had they lived.

There were those who used the situation to advance political agendas, but they were only able to do so by tapping into a significant sentiment in black culture.

[Graebarde]

http://www.vvof.org/factsvnv.htm

I'm not sure of where their numbers come from. But if they're accurate, then it paints a far different picture than many would have you believe about what was going on "over there".

IMHO those figures are pretty accurate. A LOT of study went into the 'Nam Vets and statistics such as this. Much of it done by the VA.

[Graebarde]

Was with my grandfather and his brother in 1971 when a hippie and his buddy threw their drinks into the face of a returning vet who had just got back and called him a baby killer.

Lets just say what my grandfather and great uncle did to them could be termed one of the great beatings of the 1970's. (Grandfather and great uncle both being WWII combat vets, the great uncle being in the second wave on D-Day at Omaha)

Hehehe,

The only spiting type incident I saw was in SeaTac in early '70 when the dumb ass made the mistake of confronting a SF staff sergeant who was leaving the latrine/head/toilet. Let's just say the other four GIs in there blocked the exit while staff flushed the crap. Discretion is the better part of valor.. some people think they can do anything they want with our repercutions.

[Legbreaker]

If you want to blame somebody, blame the politicians who refuse to adopt a long term security policy, not to mention, their knee-jerk antics whenever a crisis blows up.

Hell yes. Although to one politicians credit, when I had a one one one chat with them a few years back they completely agreed with the idea of assigning the necessary resources (financial and manpower) to the military, but was hamstrung by the expectations of the voters. Many politicians know what's needed, but also know it's political suicide to actually DO it! :mad:

[dragoon500ly]

Hell yes. Although to one politicians credit, when I had a one one one chat with them a few years back they completely agreed with the idea of assigning the necessary resources (financial and manpower) to the military, but was hamstrung by the expectations of the voters. Many politicians know what's needed, but also know it's political suicide to actually DO it! :mad:

The sad fact is that for every politician with the balls to do the right for the troops, they are sadly outnumbered by the ones scrambling to get that ole "pork" for their districts and buy their way into reelection.

Thankfully, I don't have to interact (much) with the crop o'congressional jacka**es, but the ones that I do bump into, leave one with the feeling of having been well slimed!

[bobcat]

and here i am at a college that pays more Observance to a damned football game than veterans day or memorial day.

[The Rifleman]

and here i am at a college that pays more Observance to a damned football game than veterans day or memorial day.

I am a 20 year veteran. I'm also a police officer. I always work on weekends and I do get quite angry on veterans day because it seems like veterans are always working. It should be that in able to get the day off work, you have to be a vet, or going to an event to support vets.

The day that I really hate is memorial day. All weekend long I deal with drunken morons, enjoying a 3 day weekend. Its supposed to be about honoring the memory of our dead soldiers and instead they do stupid things and get all indigint like its their right to be drunk and stupid for the 'holiday'

[Panther Al]

I am a 20 year veteran. I'm also a police officer. I always work on weekends and I do get quite angry on veterans day because it seems like veterans are always working. It should be that in able to get the day off work, you have to be a vet, or going to an event to support vets.

The day that I really hate is memorial day. All weekend long I deal with drunken morons, enjoying a 3 day weekend. Its supposed to be about honoring the memory of our dead soldiers and instead they do stupid things and get all indigint like its their right to be drunk and stupid for the 'holiday'

So agree:


I honestly think the one thing that all sides in Sodom on Gammorah (Washington DC) could possibly agree on - and I won't place bets on it - is actually making Veterans Day a holiday that Vets - and only vets - get off as a paid holiday.

[The Rifleman]

So agree:


I honestly think the one thing that all sides in Sodom on Gammorah (Washington DC) could possibly agree on - and I won't place bets on it - is actually making Veterans Day a holiday that Vets - and only vets - get off as a paid holiday.

+1

I give big credit to Applebees and Denny's for offering free or reduced price meals to vets yesterday. I was working a 12 and had no time for either, but have in the past. Also, Ocean State Job lots gave a 30% discount to vets earlier in the month. I appriciate buisinesses for being generous.

[bobcat]

im not even asking for a day off. but only one of my professors even acknowledged the holiday. and yes i thanked him for his service as well.

[Graebarde]

So agree:


I honestly think the one thing that all sides in Sodom on Gammorah (Washington DC) could possibly agree on - and I won't place bets on it - is actually making Veterans Day a holiday that Vets - and only vets - get off as a paid holiday.

I agree with the Vets only for the paid holiday. But they'll do away with the holiday before they do that I think.

I worked for a company that gave every vet, and only the vets, $20 gift cards (might have been more just can't recall but at least $20) every veterans day. And of the over 500 employees at least 30-40% were vets. Of course it was a private owned company but it sure was the best company I ever worked for.

[Graebarde]

+1

I give big credit to Applebees and Denny's for offering free or reduced price meals to vets yesterday. I was working a 12 and had no time for either, but have in the past. Also, Ocean State Job lots gave a 30% discount to vets earlier in the month. I appriciate buisinesses for being generous.

There was a LONG list of places giving out free meals to vets yesterday. My hat is off to them as well. Note however the only one I know that was doing this before ODS and the great emphasis in this country to honor the vets was Golden Corral. Most have only been doing it since the most recent War on Terrorism.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

A few years ago, when I was flying back from Wisconsin at the Milwaukee airport there was a group of volunteers welcoming service personnel. I saw them welcome a couple of guys in BDUs (ASUs, now?) who were just passing through. It was pretty inspiring to see.

Then on the flight home there was a soldier whom they gave a business class seat to and once we were airborne the steward got on the PA and said something like "Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you're all aware we have a celebrity on board; let's give it up for PFc John Smith!" (whatever the guy's name was, it's been a few years so forgive me not remembering) and the whole plane went nuts.

So yeah we civvies do our best. :]

[James Langham]

Does anyone have the statistics of racial breakdown in COMBAT units in Vietnam, the histories I have seen seem to imply an army in line with national percentages but the less educated minorities serving in the front line.

[Targan]

Does anyone have the statistics of racial breakdown in COMBAT units in Vietnam, the histories I have seen seem to imply an army in line with national percentages but the less educated minorities serving in the front line.

This exact subject came up in a thread within the last six months. I wish I could remember the title or topic of that thread. The nature of this forum is such that if it isn't in the thread map it takes hours to go searching for specific scraps of conversation.