Questions about Home Guard/Militia units..

[natehale1971]

Hi everyone,

I've got a question for everyone here about Home Guard/Local Militia units. A friend gave me something really good, namely three PDFs of an old West End Games Role-playing game called "The Price of Freedom" where the USSR and its allies occupy the United States of America. And PCs are resistance fighters from a wide vareity of civilian occupations and backgrounds.

Now the question i have is about arming, equipping and organizing home guard/local militia units in a WWIII type scenerio... now I know that the National Guard Armories that are located all across the country are meant for such purposes.

I am wondering about how these units are not just intitally outfited and equipped, but how they would be maintaing their munitions.

The presence of Reloading Equipment in gun & hunting stores would be a major part of keeping them in the field.

But I really would like to hear everyone's ideas and suggestions.

[The Rifleman]

In Vermont, most of the "home guard" units are almost exclusively retired or medically seperated national guard veterans. They did get some extremely limited use during Iraq/Afghanistan deployments when almost the entire state was gone.

The guard is different then active duty; we tend to have lots of excess equipment laying around different armories and national guard "bases". Most of it is really old and has little or no relevence, like massive amounts of tents, trailers and so on. Also, we tend to have more gear then we need, plus there are spares at "state" level.

Each state has its own National Guard HQ and related small units that aren't tied to a unit that gets deployed. I would assume that if things really were that bad, then the state HQ and non-deploying units would form a structure and the old retired guys in the state guard for form the cadre for new units.

I couldn't honestly see those old guys doing much, and its hit or miss with equipment. You'd probably see there are some small arms, lots of uniforms, helmets and individual gear, as well as some soft skinned vehicles and even a handful of tanks and APCs. However, the old guys may have the brains, but most aren't really capable of leading in the field, so you'd have some severe leadership issues at squad, platoon and possible company level.

[Legbreaker]

Don't count on any armoured vehicles being with the home guard. We already know there's been a huge attrition of vehicles in Europe with airfields, nuclear power stations, etc stripped of their armoured assets and sent to the front as battle replacements.
At best an occasional group may have a 50 year old vehicle one of their members happened to have laying about and restored.

[The Rifleman]

Don't count on any armoured vehicles being with the home guard. We already know there's been a huge attrition of vehicles in Europe with airfields, nuclear power stations, etc stripped of their armoured assets and sent to the front as battle replacements.
At best an occasional group may have a 50 year old vehicle one of their members happened to have laying about and restored.

Actually, no, this is not accurate becuase you are not taking National Guard / Active army politics into account.

The active army allots each National Guard unit (be battalion, company, brigade) the exact same equipment that its active duty peer gets. When the units are "called to federal service" all of this gear goes with them and becomes the active army's responsibility.

However, this authozirized equiptment is always the active army's hand-me-downs. When the National Guard gets "new" used gear from the army, then then most of its left overs get disposed off... in different ways. For example, most of the tanks are returned to depots and then sold to other countries. Trucks however aren't worth as much and tend to be sold at local auction. Other items that are considered "wore out" like generators, tents, stoves, trailers, camo nets (to name a few) are often abandoned. When I moved my company from our old armory (built in 1903) to a brand new one, we discovered parts to vehicles, tools, radios, tents... all the way back to the 50s.

Where the politics come into play is that this is each STATE's gear. They pretty much do whatever they want. At state level, we still have an old boneyard that has a few M-1s and M60s that are supposed to become memorials; I've seen an M42 duster and some captured Iraqi armor too. I know they are fully functional as the mechanics from the state level shops get in them and move them around from time to time to keep them running. The state determines where all this stuff is going to end up and there is so much of it the active army can't keep up. As a rough guess, I'd say there are about two dozen Vermont National Guard tanks scattered around the state on lawns, everything from M1s, M60s, M48s and even an M4 and M113s. I also know there are spares laying around in warehouses for them.

Politics. Do you think that the big army is going to track down an M60A3 in West Rutland, Vermont in front of the armory when they are in the middle of world war 3? No, actually I know first hand the active army has NO CLUE that these tanks are there. Do you think that with all the disturbances at home, Vermont is going to volunteer its reasources to go to Yugoslavia or Poland when they have a maurader problem in their own back yard? You're darn right they aren't going to give up their assets.

As soon as all the deployable national guard units are gone, the state guard moves into the vacant armories and takes over the local "state" mission. Thats disaster relief, riot control, so on. Its hit or miss what gear is at the armory, so at state level they will send down what's needed. As I say before, most of the state guard is retired national guard, so they typicall have some rank and expereince. Lots of Colonels, Majors, Sergeant Majors and Master Sergeants are quite active. They now the local citizens, government, the unit, the gear, procedures and so on. Where they are hurting is young, able bodied men.

Then you've also got all those non-deployable units and they have some manpower too. Its really all hit or miss depending on the local leadership, how the politics play out, if the state was home to an armor brigade or an infantry brigade.... or even USED to have an armored brigade..... could be anything.

[natehale1971]

Since the State Guard/Home Guard has so many vets how hard would it be to set up training facilities to train younger bodies to fill all of the vacancies? Using Boy Scouts (or equivilent) types to help create a cadre of support personnel that would supliment the police and emergency services? Or others to help provide security and support (anything form community watches to other civilian security groups)...

It's not just the gear, it's the core of vets that would be to train and get bodies to do the acutal grunt work... just how quickly would it take for these vets to set up and train the first groups to fill the gaps in local security/defense like we saw the British did during the Second World War?

[The Rifleman]

First, an appology to Legbreaker, I don't mean to sound confrotational. What you said makes GOOD common sense. However, in the military and national guard, common sense isn't always what happens.

As to using the State Guard as a cadre, its another good idea, on paper. In reality, I'm not so sure, as most of them are so old or broke that they are quite limited in how much they can do. Its hard to teach someone how move from fighting position to position when you have instructors that honestly can't run or maybe in trot.

Just to give you an idea, your average State Guard soldier is a retired E-8 or E-9 and is between 60 and 75 years old. Your average officer is the same age but most likely between O-4 and O-6. I'd say that there would be a few E-7s and maybe one or two O-3s. The biggest problem with training is that there are NO E-5s or E-6s that would be your team and squad leaders, and no junior officers to lead your platoons. So essentially you'd have everything you need to run an honest to god world class battalion HQ with a whole staff of NCOs and officers that are doing the job of a captain or major but could easily be the battalion or even brigade commander. But your actual battalion would have nothing more than draftees, which brings me to the next problem.

The state guard is not designed for basic training; I'd bet that the tough old guys know what needs to be done and could get around that, but there is no system in place. So somehow, the state would have to come up with a way to (unconstitutionally) draft people into it. Then, they'd have to run an OCS with "90 day wonder" Lts to run platoons and "shake and bake" sergeants. I hated both of these concepts in Vietnam, but its the only way it would work.

Just for laughs, I'm going to promote myself to the State of Vermont Adjuant General and play out the war, writing what I would do each step of the way so you'd have an idea of how things work out.

[HorseSoldier]

I thought there was legislation or a military policy in place that said vehicles on static display had to be de-mil'ed and rendered non-functional after that guy in California stole an M60 tank back in '95. I may be wrong on that, though, and obviously its relevance in the T2K timeline is questionable. (And rendering a vehicle non-functional does not imply it has to be permanently non-functional, though my understanding was that "non-functional" normally translated to the power pack being pulled from AFVs.)

Just to give you an idea, your average State Guard soldier is a retired E-8 or E-9 and is between 60 and 75 years old. Your average officer is the same age but most likely between O-4 and O-6. I'd say that there would be a few E-7s and maybe one or two O-3s. The biggest problem with training is that there are NO E-5s or E-6s that would be your team and squad leaders, and no junior officers to lead your platoons. So essentially you'd have everything you need to run an honest to god world class battalion HQ with a whole staff of NCOs and officers that are doing the job of a captain or major but could easily be the battalion or even brigade commander. But your actual battalion would have nothing more than draftees, which brings me to the next problem.

Back in the day, I had some contact with Alabama State Defense Force personnel, and would say that version of a state guard seemed to be about 75% military veterans as described above and 25% younger guys who wanted to serve in the active or reserve military but had some issue disqualifying them from enlistment. Some of those guys appeared to be okay enough guys and some were of the "I'm a cop . . . a mall cop" sorts whose disqualifying issue was probably psychiatric in nature (or they just wanted "military" involvement without the work it requires). Some portion of those younger guys might have been suitable for those missing junior leadership cadre positions, but A) they lack real experience and B) in a Twilight War scenario enlistment standards would become loose enough that all those guys except the truly exceptional duds (and probably even some of them) could have gotten themselves into the real military.

I am wondering about how these units are not just intitally outfited and equipped, but how they would be maintaing their munitions.

Here in Alaska, the State Defense Force has a small fleet of its own military vehicles -- 2.5 and 5 ton trucks are all I've seen. They keep them stored at NG armories, but are easily recognizable despite the standard NATO three color woodland camo paint jobs because unlike active or reserve military vehicles they have to carry state of Alaska license plates because they don't have the exemption from needing plates that applies to active or reserve military vehicles.

Judging by what I've seen, unless they have additional vehicles stored elsewhere, we're probably talking about a fleet of vehicles that would be inadequate to effectively motorize an infantry battalion. On the other hand, I assume those vehicles are surplus purchased by the state of Alaska and would be free from any concerns of being taken back into service to address attrition on the battlefield (well, at least until the Soviet invasion of AK, at which point I imagine the AK state defense force would wind up being a logistics and civil affairs auxiliary part of X Corps).

The presence of Reloading Equipment in gun & hunting stores would be a major part of keeping them in the field.

I'm not sure how much this would help -- the just-in-time inventory pattern in most retail stores is going to mean even seizing everything related to reloading in even a fair sized city isn't going to translate to enough reloading supplies to sustain a military unit of even moderate size that is seeing any significant action and expenditure of ammunition. Obviously, patrolling the mean streets of America post-TDM isn't going to be as ammunition intensive as slugging it out in Central Europe, but the mauling some of the divisions in USAVG suffered from armed groups in CONUS suggests that we're talking about a much worse situation that, say, the LA Riots even before New America goes active and presents a large, organized insurgency.

What's really going to be needed for military operations is smokeless powder, bullet, and primer production on an industrial scale even if brass cases are largely being scrounged and reloaded -- something comparable to the Wojo factory in Krakow is going to be have to exist on a regional basis in the US and elsewhere to keep even the greatly reduced military forces shown in T2K able to operate at even a semblance of modern fire and maneuver tactics.

[The Rifleman]

Situation: The Vermont National Guard is made up of a number of different units with diverse missions. During the war, not only did the units find themselves employed in different capabilities, but in different situations around the world. The following information is used to describe how these situations would have played out should world war three have happened in either V1 or V2 rules.

Vermont National Guard Organization (pre war):

Vermont STARC HQ (includes public affairs, state medical support, the biathlon team, Adjutant General and staff (100 men 10 vehicles)

Subunits
86th Armored Brigade (see below)
Vermont Troop Command (see below)
Vermont Military Academy (see below)
Vermont Army Mountain Warfare School (see below)
Ethan Allen Firing Range Control and staff (see below)
Camp Johnson Logistics and Full time support (see below)
Vermont Air National Guard (see below)
Norwich University (a military academy since the 1800s) ROTC, Castleton State University ROTC , University of Vermont ROTC (none of these programs are officially Vermont National Guard, however most of the facility are retired military officers, the state details excess officers as support and instructors and most of the students are dual members of ROTC and the Vermont National Guard (that are not eligible for deployment. Most of the Vermont National Guard officers are either Vermont Military Academy OCS graduates or Norwich University ROTC graduates)

86th Armored Brigade HQ (200 men, 30 vehicles)

Subunits:

1/172 Armored Battalion (800 men 56 M1s, 8 M901s, 8 M109/4.2” mortars, 120 vehicles)
2/172 Armored Battalion (800 men 56 M1s, 8 M901s, 8 M109/4.2” mortars, 120 vehicles)
86th Artillery Battalion (400 men 24 M109A3s 40 vehicles)
172nd Field Support Battalion (500 men, 120 vehicles)
Other Brigade units are from states other than Vermont
Vermont Troop Command HQ (controlling headquarters for small units) (30 men 5 vehicles)

Subunits

3/172 Infantry Battalion (Mountain) (500 men, 20 vehicles)
C Company, 3/126 Aviation (200 men, 20 blackhawks, 15 vehicles)
45th Engineer Company (75 men, 25 vehicles)
131st Engineer Company (120 men, 25 vehicles)
40th Army Band (30 men 5 vehicles)

Vermont Military Academy HQ and staff (20men)
Company H, 1st OCS Battalion (5 men)
Company E, 1st Infantry Training Brigade (15men 3 vehicles)
Company B, 14th General Studies Battalion (20 men)

Vermont Army Mountain Warfare School (25 men 5 vehicles)

Ethan Allen Firing Range
Range Control Staff (20 men 10 vehicles)
Medical Support (5 men 1 vehicle)
UTES Maintainece shop support (10 men)

Camp Johnson Full time support and staff
CSMS State support maintance shop (10 men)
Administrative offices, warehouse and support (30 men)
Post security (10 men)

Vermont Air National Guard HQ (50 men 10 vehicles)
158th Fighter Wing (total 600 men)
134th Fighter Squadron
158th Operations, Support, and Medical Groups

Vermont Army National Guard timeline:
1945 – 172nd Infantry Regiment returns from the war with Japan as a component of the 43rd Infantry Division (The Division commander was General Leonard Wing senior, a former Officer in the 2/172 Infantry) Also, the Vermont State Police are formed by Major General Merrit Edison, medal of honor winner for his service during WW2 with the USMC in the pacific.

1960s – The 86th Infantry Brigade is converted into an Armored Brigade under the command of Brigadier General Leonard Wing Jr, an armor officer that served in World War 2. The 86th Armored Brigade is transferred from the 43rd Infantry Division to the 50th Armored Division. General Wing becomes the 50th Armored Division Commander, then later assistant Vermont Adjutant General. He retires in 1973.

1970s – The army restructures its armor brigades and one battalion 3/172 is closed. The Brigade receives M48s

1980s – General Donald Edwards, a Norwich University Graduate, Vietnam Veteran, and former active duty officer is elected state Adjutant General in 1981. He begins implementing a build up. The army expands under President Regan with political campaigning from General Edwards; 3/172 is opened as a “mountain” battalion and the Army Mountain Warfare School is opened; the biathlon team begins competing in the Olympics . General Edwards essential creates a “speciality mountain / sports / infantry” environment. The Mountain School is teaching summer and winter “mountain” classes, as well as specialty course such as “the assault climber” course. General Edwards oversees the transition from M48A5s to M60A3s for the 86th Armored Brigade. He retains some of the tanks for future memorials, as well as some of the other older support vehicles. General Edwards also secures funds for several large state run maintance facilities and permanent staff.

1990s – In 1993 General Edwards secured M1 tanks for the 86th IBCT; he retains several of the M60A3s as war memorials. 1995 General Edwards secured funds for the new Vermont Military Academy building as well as expands the staff for the 1st Infantry Training Brigade. The staff now teaches 11B MOSQ, 11B BNCOC and 11B ANCOC all in 2 week phases.

1997 – The 86th Armored Brigade is activated as part of the 50th Armored Division. All of its equipment and personal are deployed to Germany. To have enough personnel, all of the inactive national guard soldiers are also recalled and deployed. The Vermont Air National Guard’s 158th Fighter Wing is activated and deployed to Europe. Company C, 3/126 Aviation is activated and deployed with its parent unit to Korea.

1998 – With the activation of 1st Army, all of its subordinate units are activated. The 3/172 Infantry Battalion is activated and is used for security duty for 1st US Army and disaster relief missions in the Army HQ immediate area. The 131st Engineer Company is activated and forms part of a Corp level engineer battalion in 1st Army. Due to political pressure from the Govenor of Vermont and General Edwards, the 40th Army band and the 45th Engineer Company are activated but remain under state control. The decision is partly political and partly practical as the 45th is perpetually understrength, the 40th band has no mission and the states need local forces to maintain order.

1999 – With Vermonts limited population, riots and looting is fairly limited compared to other states. General Edwards is heavy handed (he was known to lock down state controlled roads and had numerous political battles with Burlington leaders over the years). General Edwards deploys the 40th Band and 45th Engineer to the Highways and turns around refugees that cannot show they can support themselves.

With numerous bridges, rivers and mountains, at first its easy to control access, but as the issues in the cities become increasing worse, General Edwards needs more soldiers and units. With pressure on the Govenor, General Edwards begins a “state” draft. Able bodied men are sent to the Vermont Military Academy and trained with instructors from the 1st Infantry training brigade and the Vermont Army Mountain Warfare school on infantry tactics. The 40 instructors and staff are able to run a basic training course every eight weeks that turns out 200 students. Drawing on his Vietnam War experience, he has the staff select the top 10 recruits to attend the OCS battalion 12 week long course to become officers and the next best 30 recruits attend the General Studies battalion courses for 8 weeks to become NCOs. Also, the Norwich University Campus has several hundred M16s and M14s as well as a large number of cadets that were in officer training but not deployed. The state’s warehouses are full of older equiptment such as uniforms, helmets and web gear. The armories of the schools and state level units are all full of M16 rifles and the state has a small ammo dump at Camp Johnson.

General Edwards then uses his staff to shift through the state’s retired reserve list and finds all of the national guard veterans who are receiving entitlements and activates them. (I personally witnessed an master sergeant who was retired for 4 years activated for service in Afghanistan so I know it can be done). He also activates that state guard. These veterans, as well as the personal who were declined for deployment with the 86th Brigade become the senior leadership for 2 new Vermont National Guard battalions, as the state has roughly enough rifles and gear for 1,000 or so new soldiers.

Discipline in the battalions is fairly tight as the battalion staffs are full of retired colonels, the company commanders are fairly young retired majors from the college ROTC, and most of the platoon sergeants are military school trained 20 year old Lts from Norwich. Many of the state guard and retired soldiers are former tankers, having served in the 60s – 80s. These older soldiers are paired with some younger ones to form tank crews. The following vehicles are recovered from lawns where they were memorials or from the bone yard behind armories: M48A5s 4, M60A3s 8, M113s 4, M42s 2, 75mm pack howitzers 2. The M48s and M60s are not just paper tigers.

The state has TWO full maintance shops that can MAKE parts for tanks and have spares (especially for the M60s) in inventory. There is a hydroelectric dam just 1 mile from Camp Johnson and the state shop providing power for the machines to work. Also, Camp Johnson has a small ammo dump and the 86th Armored Brigade uses M1s with 105mm cannons. So there is a limited amount of ammunition remaining in stock that will work with the main guns on the M48s and M60s, as well as .50 for the M2 machine guns.

2000 – Vermont is essentially a dictatorship. The governor is nothing more than a figurehead as General Edwards controls the military. The state police and Vermont national guard are algamated into one force. The “1st Vermont Battalion” with 500 men is controlling the northern half of the state and the “2nd Vermont Battalion” with 500 men is controlling the southern half of the state. Each platoon has one or two state troopers with it as a law enforcement specialist who acts as an investigator for need be for crimes; serious offenses are sent to battalion HQ for “trial”.

Most of the countryside is occasionally patrolled, but the cities and towns have regular patrols of National Guard, typically with either a state trooper or local law enforcement officer. The Interstates and Highways are controlled by 40th band in the North, or by the 2nd Battalion in the south. The 45th Engineer Company has been re-enforced to a battalion by using the state highway department’s personal and equipment. Important bridges are maintained and the 45th is constructing permanent fortifications to keep refugees out of the state. The “3rd Vermont Armored Company” and “4th Vermont Armored Company” both formed around the remaining tanks and are used as a reserve at different locations around the state. They are based at armories that contain shops designed to work on tanks so maintance is easy to upkeep and the tanks are stored inside, out of the elements unless needed.

Rumors of the military state have made as far south as the 1st Army HQ, and when that headquarters disintegrated, the remaining 150 soldiers of the 3/172 Infantry (mountain) began the trek home to Vermont from New York by foot. The “state” farms outside the prisons are still active, as well as many dairy farms including ones at the university’s, and many Morgan horse farms have been used to raise horses for agriculture. As Vermont did not have a single military target worth hitting with a nuclear device, the only major threat to the populations were marauders and refugee influxes, both of which were prevented by General Edwards hard handed ways. Vermont even has a nuclear power plant (Vermont Yankee) and some remaining staff that is currently off line but will be restarted if enough industry in Brattlboro is repaired to justify it.

So that’s just a really rough draft with some ideas I just typed up as I went along. I guess I could war game out a few things differently, but it really all comes down to leadership. If you have a 38 year military veteran of Vietnam, like General Edwards, who isn’t afraid to piss people off and has the know – how , you could do a lot.

[The Rifleman]

I thought there was legislation or a military policy in place that said vehicles on static display had to be de-mil'ed and rendered non-functional after that guy in California stole an M60 tank back in '95. I may be wrong on that, though, and obviously its relevance in the T2K timeline is questionable. (And rendering a vehicle non-functional does not imply it has to be permanently non-functional, though my understanding was that "non-functional" normally translated to the power pack being pulled from AFVs.)


You're right, they are supposed to be de-milled. However, a lot of those tanks spend YEARS sitting in motor pools waiting for state to get around to doing the work. Besides that, if if they are de-milled, the spares are still there to swap out, and at the state level they have everything they need to make parts. Power pacts probably would be the most difficult to replace, as whole ones aren't just laying around waiting to be replaced, but I don't think they removed the whole thing, just one or two parts. As a matter of fact, there is one partular one that needed to be moved, they just unlocked it and drove the 50 year old tank to a new home lol.

[natehale1971]

I want to thank The Rifleman for all his help on this. :) it's given me some good ideas for what i'm working on.

[The Rifleman]

You're welcome. I should thank you too. I saved all that info and perhaps I'll use it to create some sort of Vermont reasource guide or even campaign.

[natehale1971]

You're welcome. I should thank you too. I saved all that info and perhaps I'll use it to create some sort of Vermont reasource guide or even campaign.

That's great. :) just make sure you post it here for everyone to enjoy it as well!

[Targan]

Interesting take on Vermont. Have you guys read Webstral's New England material?

[Legbreaker]

My major concern here is that once Europe, Korea and the Middle East really ramp up and losses start piling up (particularly in the latter half of 1997 when NATO was in full retreat and loosing entire Divisions one after the other), a concerted effort would be made to send out "scroungers" to round up all these vehicles, or at the very least tally up what is where in order to requisition them later on if things get REALLY bad (which they obviously did, but post nuke there's not exactly much of an organised "procurement" organisation left).

Some pieces of equipment are likely to escape being swept back into service, sure, but if the handful of us here on this forum are aware of what is potentially out there, I'm fairly sure somebody in the military, hell even the civilian government, is going to start thinking along the same lines and DO something about it.

Many vehicles, etc aren't going to be suitable for the front lines - who in their right mind wants to send an old M4 to Europe in 1997? However, anything deemed useful isn't likely to get easily overlooked.

Therefore, WWII and maybe Korea era equipment may be found with the state guard and militia, but anything newer is sure to be exceptionally unique.

[The Rifleman]

My major concern here is that once Europe, Korea and the Middle East really ramp up and losses start piling up (particularly in the latter half of 1997 when NATO was in full retreat and loosing entire Divisions one after the other), a concerted effort would be made to send out "scroungers" to round up all these vehicles, or at the very least tally up what is where in order to requisition them later on if things get REALLY bad (which they obviously did, but post nuke there's not exactly much of an organised "procurement" organisation left).

Some pieces of equipment are likely to escape being swept back into service, sure, but if the handful of us here on this forum are aware of what is potentially out there, I'm fairly sure somebody in the military, hell even the civilian government, is going to start thinking along the same lines and DO something about it.

Many vehicles, etc aren't going to be suitable for the front lines - who in their right mind wants to send an old M4 to Europe in 1997? However, anything deemed useful isn't likely to get easily overlooked.

Therefore, WWII and maybe Korea era equipment may be found with the state guard and militia, but anything newer is sure to be exceptionally unique.

Just no. The nearest army bases are Fort drum (10 hours drive) or Fort Dix (8 hours drive). By army base standards, neither are large. Do you honestly think that someone is going to get in a car, spend days or weeks driving around small towns in new england hoping to see a lawn ornaments? The army has no idea where these tanks are because they are not even the army's property anymore. Lets play this out.

The army has people spending weeks driving around looking for old tanks. Then, after one is actually found, they have to get a truck and a special trailer to come up from Kentucky (three days drive) to get it. AND if its not running, you'll need a tank recovery vehicle to drag or push it. AND that vehicle will need a second truck and special trailer to bring it up from Kentucky to Ludlow, Vermont, to bring it back as well. AND don't forget that someone has got to keep them fueled. AND on top of that, these tanks ARENT OWNED by the army, they are sitting on the property book of the state. So even if the army decided they wanted to try and pull rank, its totally unrealistic.

Are you familiar with the US Army Vehicle guide? Whole infantry divisions were getting attacked by bandits. How are two tractor trailers towing a tank recovery vehicle, mechanics, and some other vehicles with stills going to drive 3 days through bandit country because some private found a tank?

[The Rifleman]

Interesting take on Vermont. Have you guys read Webstral's New England material?

I didn't know it existed.

[Legbreaker]

Are you familiar with the US Army Vehicle guide?
Intimately.

Does it matter how far away an army base is if it's a non-military, government agency tracking them down? :s
Am I misunderstanding things here? Are we talking about just one vehicle in a depot waiting for conversion to lawn ornament, or closer to the impression I'm getting from reading this thread, a collection of a dozen or so plus miscellaneous equipment abandoned/cast off/declared obsolete and surplus pre war? If the latter, then these depots represent a significant resource which should not be overlooked.

We also know that the military/government is able and willing to requisition equipment and supplies during wartime - they've done it before and will do it again. Therefore, the "paper" ownership of these items is a completely moot point. Take for example the notes for B2: Cadillac Gage Stingray.
...in early 1997 the Stingrays were requisitioned. (The vehicle in this plate still retains markings on it's rear superstructure showing it was requisitioned in February 1997 by Field Materials Headquarters Company 12.)
So, are we saying bandits and the like were already making life difficult and operating without the authorities doing anything about it as early as 2 months after the US entering the war, before many units had even assembled and climbed aboard a plane?

If Stingrays, a vehicle which the US military didn't even have on it's books beforehand were being requisitioned and sent to the front, why would the "surplus" M1s, M60's, M48's, etc, etc, etc be ignored? It might well take a while to track them down, but records surely exist somewhere regarding disposal of these items? How hard would it be pre-nuke to carry out a simple computer search and find where they are supposed to be, then send out a couple of men in cars to confirm it?

Would these vehicles have necessarily been sent to the front? I doubt it.
BUT, as training vehicles, both for crew members and technicians (who could pull apart one of these recovered vehicles without fear of breaking something that was actually NEEDED on the front lines) they would be invaluable (take for example the Sentinel tank in WWII which although combat worthy never saw combat, but was used for training).

Once these vehicles were found, civilian contractors could be engaged to transport them to these training areas - a logging contractor for example with a low loader may find themselves shifting an M60 instead of the usual bull dozer. Use of these contractors will not have a significant negative impact on the overall troop mobilisation - they're outside the usual logistical network already operating overtime to shift tens, hundreds of thousands of troops to the docks and airports.

So in conclusion, efforts were clearly made to round up anything useful to the war effort. In wartime, the Federal government comes first, superseding any claims State or Local organisations have (although I'm sure there'd have to be payments, or promises of payments made). Not every vehicle/equipment would be rounded up, but it's very unlikely there'd be any relatively modern MBTs floating about for the State Guard/militia to lay their hands on.

As a side note, in WWII, all shrapnel from German bombs dropped on England was considered to be government property and was to be handed in for recycling immediately (although many kids illegally kept what they found as souvenirs). Numerous drives were made to collect scrap metal and just about anything else which could aid the war effort. In WWIII, would an M60A2 elude a similar round up if mere scrap in WWII was valued so highly?

[natehale1971]

the difference in the Scrapmetal drives of then and now... is the fact that there are vast fields of scrapmetal at salvage yards that would have been stirpped before they got around to looking for those armored vehicles, aircraft and the like setting out from of VFWs, American Legion Huts and Disabled American Veteran Chapter houses... or even those out front of various local armories across the country.

And by the time the scrapmetal drives were being made in the Twilight War timelines, the nuclear exchanges had already been made. And by then, the local authorities would have pulled those systems out and gotten them up and running to protect themselves... and really tough biker types whom become bandits would have gotten their hands on them during this period as well.

history has shown that there are alot of varibles in play, and it's hard to say where anything will fall when it's time to cash in those chips.

[Legbreaker]

Well, as usual, everyone is entitled to do whatever they want in their own game world.
For me though, I just don't believe it's possible these sorts of resources would be completely forgotten about and ignored in the almost twelve months of full scale warfare before continental US was nuked and conditions deteriorated past the point where it was possible to find and recover these things. The war starts going against NATO literally MONTHS before the US is nuked and there's a clear and desperate NEED for heavy equipment for the front lines.

Overlooking AFVs so new that their cousins are still in service is, in my mind at least, absolutely criminal!

[natehale1971]

Well, as usual, everyone is entitled to do whatever they want in their own game world.
For me though, I just don't believe it's possible these sorts of resources would be completely forgotten about and ignored in the almost twelve months of full scale warfare before continental US was nuked and conditions deteriorated past the point where it was possible to find and recover these things. The war starts going against NATO literally MONTHS before the US is nuked and there's a clear and desperate NEED for heavy equipment for the front lines.

Overlooking AFVs so new that their cousins are still in service is, in my mind at least, absolutely criminal!

Not arguing with you my friend... but we're talking about the government. and anyone can tell you how some of their actions can be easily seen as criminal neglegence....

The AFVs in question that we're talking about are the ones that are "off-the-books" and not recored as being in the system... and thus considered to be decommissioned and very possibly scrapped.

Now AFVs that had been decommissioned within a year or two year period would be the ones that would be in the 'recall' to be requisitioned from their civilian owners (or even from those State Guard and local militia units that own and operate them).

Hell, they would requistion Armored Cars that transport valuables since as we're seeing... those vehicles are damn good at being resistant to roadside boombs and anti-vhiecle landmines.

[dragoon500ly]

You're right, they are supposed to be de-milled. However, a lot of those tanks spend YEARS sitting in motor pools waiting for state to get around to doing the work. Besides that, if if they are de-milled, the spares are still there to swap out, and at the state level they have everything they need to make parts. Power pacts probably would be the most difficult to replace, as whole ones aren't just laying around waiting to be replaced, but I don't think they removed the whole thing, just one or two parts. As a matter of fact, there is one partular one that needed to be moved, they just unlocked it and drove the 50 year old tank to a new home lol.

Its Federal law that display armored vehicles be de-milled, and the BATFE does check on such displays. At the very least, the fire-control must be removed, the gun tube rendered inoperative and the vehicle be immobile (usually be removing the power pack).

There was an earlier comment about a M-60A3 being used in a road-rage incident in, I believe, 1995. This vehicle was stolen from a National Guard Armory, dirt simple when you realize that all you need to operate a tank, is something to break or cut the hatch-lock off. Vehicles are normally parked with full fuel cells and have no keys for the ole ignition.

[The Rifleman]

Lots of posts on here with people making reasonable comments. However, I find it interesting that some people are debating their theories here when I am bringing first hand knowledge of things that I could easily get in my car and go drive and see or make a phone call to confirm.

The following statements are facts from 21 years of service in the national guard:

-National Guard units report to their respective govenor, not the Federal Government unless called to active duty. There are some state units that cannot be federalized. This includes the state guard. These units control miltary items that are not owned or tracked by the federal government or army.

-National Guard units are in control of "excess" equipment. The active army and federal government do not track this as it is in the hands of a different entity. National Guard at the state level have their own full time soldiers, support soldiers and reasources that are not controlled by the federal governement or active army.

-Just because there are laws in place does not mean they are followed or checked. The BATF may be active in some places but it isn't in others. Also, there is a big difference between an AFV on the front lawn of a wallmart and one at a national guard base.

Honestly as has been pointed out, I don't care what other people do in their games. I do find it frustrating that people are here telling me I'm wrong about things that I know first hand to be true. I've railheaded tanks, used HETs to move tanks by truck, driven tanks on the highways right here in my own state my whole life. I know full well how they are moved between different bases, who's tracking what and who isn't. I also understand the politics of the national guard and the active army quite well. I'm all good with debating "what could have" happened, but I'm really not good with debating what really exists, its just a time waster.

[kato13]

One fact that I remember that might be relevant to the discussion, in 1986 or 1987 the US military felt that they had lost track of too many vehicles within their own structure. A full inventory was ordered that was supposed to take into account things like damaged but reparable vehicles, vehicles stripped down to their frames, etc. The scale of the problem was so great that the most optimistic end goal of the inventory was to get an accurate count +/- 50,000 vehicles.

That size of that number stunned me to the point that I remember it clearly until today. (I believe the source was a 86/87 US Air Force published magazine)

If things can be that bad internally with vehicles counts inside a structure fully controlled by the federal government, I can't imagine what would slip through their fingers when they try to go outside that which they directly control.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind also that you have all kinds of vehicles in private hands as well in the US - everything from Sherman tanks to Ferrets are in the hands of private collectors, many of which have live tubes and are fully functional.

Those vehicles definitely would be part of militia units, either official ones sanctioned by the States, or private ones in areas where the State governments had broken down.

As for display vehicles and other assorted items - I know for a fact that an old Sherman used in my area where I grew up as a VFW display had a live tube. The vets, many of whom served as tankers in WWII, kept her functional and on at least three occasions she was driven in parades as late as 1991 (Gulf War victory celebration). In a Twilight 2000 world she definitely would have been part of any local militia raised in that area.

As for the Army tracking them down - they will have more than enough to do going thru places like Anniston Army Depot, Fort Knox, etc.. looking for anything that can be repaired and put back into the fight to ever start grabbing display vehicles at VFW's or go rooting thru a National Guard bone yard in Idaho or North Dakota except possibly in hot zones like CA, AZ, or Alaska once they were invaded and they literally needed everything they could lay their hands on.

[Targan]

It's just common sense that the US military (and later the military forces of MilGov, CivGov, state government forces, local quasi-government forces) will first track down and attempt to return to functionality those military vehicles that they have accurate records for and can easily get their hands on. Obviously that means mostly vehicles they actually own and can return to functionality without too much trouble. Then they'll start casting further afield and thinking 'outside the box'. Post-TDM, things will be in complete chaos for a while and moving non-functional combat vehicles around (and finding parts for them, and refurbishing them) will become a low priority/impossible, for a while.

Eventually in '98/'99/2000 the various national/state/local/quasi-official military and para-military forces might start trying to requisition the older and more obscure decommissioned military vehicles, and that will most likely be because they start encountering them in the hands of non-official groups. That's when panic will set in, mainly at the local level.

State Guard company commander: "Oh my God, those bandits down in Smithsville have got themselves some kind of armoured vehicle, initial reports suggest it's a Sherman tank. We have to deal with them before things really get out of hand. We need to take that tank intact if we can, if not we have to destroy it".

Afterwards, the ramifications of that situation will start to filter up the chain of command and efforts will be made to determine if other, similar surprises are hiding on the fringes. That's when concerted efforts will be made to seize and bring in as many old, privately owned military vehicles as possible.

[Olefin]

"Eventually in '98/'99/2000 the various national/state/local/quasi-official military and para-military forces might start trying to requisition the older and more obscure decommissioned military vehicles, and that will most likely be because they start encountering them in the hands of non-official groups. That's when panic will set in, mainly at the local level.

State Guard company commander: "Oh my God, those bandits down in Smithsville have got themselves some kind of armoured vehicle, initial reports suggest it's a Sherman tank. We have to deal with them before things really get out of hand. We need to take that tank intact if we can, if not we have to destroy it"."

Completely agree with you there Targan!! Think of what happens in the Ozarks module when suddenly MilGov units are getting nailed because New America has air power and they dont as an example. You would have to figure that they would be scrounging suddenly for anti-aircraft weapons of any type or flyable aircraft or whatever, where a month before they couldnt care less.

If your patrol gets jumped by marauders with Ferrets or a Sherman tank suddenly fixing that old M-60 sitting in front of the local VFW becomes a heck of a lot more urgent.

Think back to Krakow - the maruders who nailed Team Zulu had a BMP-C - and that one vehicle made them a force to be feared. When all you have is rifles and shotguns and pistols even an enemy force using old armored bank cars would make you want to get that display or museum piece tank back into operation and quickly.

[Legbreaker]

In spite of these measures, expansion was slow. By December 31, 1941, 24 days after the Pearl Harbor attack, the Army consisted of 1,685,403 men ( including 275,889 in the Army Air Corps) in 29 infantry, 5 armored and 2 cavalry divisions. While an increase of 433% in two and a half years was a magnificent achievement, shortages of equipment and trained personnel were serious.

And that, from here: http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php?p=52342&postcount=2 is why I believe no stone will go unturned in the search for war material.
You just can't have a rapid build up of forces (as occurred both in early WWII and T2K) without shortages of equipment and a desperate need to acquire them from ANY source.

[HorseSoldier]

Overlooking AFVs so new that their cousins are still in service is, in my mind at least, absolutely criminal!

I'd tend to agree on this, with regard new enough equipment like M60 MBTs. On the other hand, I'm not sure how many of those would actually be on static displays in the Twilight timeline, when it was still a mainstay of ARNG armored units that had just begun transitioning to the M1 series, versus our timeline when post-1989 and Gulf War current generation equipment basically rained down on the reserves with the military draw down.

Anything pre-M113 or pre-M48 series tank would essentially be irrelevant and more trouble than they're worth, even as training vehicles due to the logistics piece and other issues I've discussed concerning my opinion about resurrecting things like WW2 vintage armor for Twilight War service in other threads.

Now, post nuke changes things, and state NG organizations are probably the most likely operators of wacky vintage armor -- as discussed above they might have access to parts (or additional vehicles to part out) and mechanics who, while not school house trained on the vintage equipment had been able to tinker with it. The collapse of the nationwide distribution network is going to be less of a show stopper at the state level (well, at least the smaller ones -- places like Texas and California are probably a mess for state-level lines of communications post TDM). How long they could actually keep anything resurrected from the bone yard running is an open question with the usual answer probably mostly being "not very long." Even without ammo for main guns and such, however, being able to park a tank shaped object in places of heavy civil disturbance during the winter 97-98 would help restore or maintain order.

By 2000, though, I'd guess that most vintage armor the states may have been able to put back in operation are back to essentially static display status like the non-functional tanks turned into turreted bunkers around Krakow. Even without main gun ammo it looks scary, and a turreted coax machinegun can lock down an entry control point even if it is subject to sporadic sniper fire and other harassment that might make guys manning gun towers iffy.

(Additional observation about NG and weird stuff still in inventory -- during the early 90s I served with a couple guys who were WW2 reenactors who noticed a pair of half tracks lurking in the back corner of the AL ARNG UTES cite at Ft McClellan/Pelham Range. They were definitely in the fixer-upper category, but those two guys spent some time climbing around on them and thought they could probably put together one working vehicle from what was present. Or at least "working" in the relatively low demand context of WW2 reenactment. They tried asking around with the UTES personnel on what the actual ownership status of the halftracks was, since there is a market in the reenactment community for that sort of thing, but I think their research never got further than the "hell if I know" answers they got from guys who worked there.)

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that until early 1998 or so they would be totally dedicated to getting damaged vehicles back into action or finishing refits or remans or getting new vehicles off the line

it wont be until the parts start to run out and the factories shut down that they will start looking a museums and VFW displays and the like

as for old tanks and AFV's - its actually a lot easier than you think to make parts for them with even small town machine shops - its one reason so many are in the hands of collectors

[headquarters]

As for operational use, a tank might not be as cost efficient as a bunch of technicals. So even though a state guard unit might very well be equipped with the tanks listed by Rifleman ( fully plausible in my book) - its not sure they would actually see much use other than sort of deterrents around valuable areas. Running a tank patrol would be costly business in T2K.

Setting up and arming a militia unit is not that hard if you have an outside threat that people fear. Setting up a good one on the other hand is a different matter.

I remember reading an interview with a man from Liverpool who served in the trenches in WWI. He was in a depot for a total of 9 days, fired three shots and was of to France the 10th day. I dont know how many days he spent training there before he was in a trench.

[Olefin]

One tank is worth a lot of technicals in combat - for one just the fact that the crew is under armor and protected much better than a gun truck or technical is worth a lot in combat.

Plus you have the ability to use the weight of the tank for crushing attacks that a technical doesnt have, plus the ability to have a fully armored pillbox when you are low on fuel.

If you want to see the value of even a single tank in combat look at the landings on Tarawa - only a couple of the USMC Shermans in the first day got ashore and survived to fight with the Marines - but their effect in supporting the Marines was very important.

You can see their effect clearly in the Europe modules - one of the reasons Krakow is such a powerful force is the fact that they have operational tanks left in their arsenal.

Even a single operational platoon of tanks has a huge effect on the operational capability of any unit.

[natehale1971]

I have a feeling that the tanks and other AFVs would more than likely be held in reserve and not used for common patrols... that's what technicals would actually really excel at. providing support for patrols, and holding enemies in place until the tanks/AFVs can arrive to deal with things that the patrol can't handle on their own. During an actual combat, the Tanks and AFVs would be worth their weights in gold... hell, lead would be worth a hell of a lot more than gold in the Twilight 2000 setting.

[bobcat]

has anyone also thought about the CD stockpiles. theres warehouses throughout the united states filled with weapons from WW2 and korea. and im not just talking garands and M1911's here we're talking bazookas, M1919's, M2HB's, BAR's, Thompsons, jeeps, tanks, halftracks. all set aside for if the national militia ever had to be used. and not just guns either, there are similar stockpiles of fuel, supplies, ammo, replacement parts, tools, everything you need can be found if you know what warehouse its in.

[Legbreaker]

And you can be sure that stuff would be used at some point, probably the moment the Mexicans and Soviets took their first step into Texas and Alaska.
New America might even have purloined a few of the dumps over the previous couple of years - get a few of their own people into positions of authority...

[headquarters]

Sure, I realize this. I was merely trying to point out that a tank is fuel thirsty and that it might be reliant on parts that are not commonly available. It also needs a trailer crew.

A technical on the other hand is a lot of bang for buck and it is easier to keep operational.

As Olefin rightly points out it wouldnt be much of a match for a tank. Nor would say 5 of them given the right terrain for the tank. But You gotta factor in the resources it takes to keep a tank running.

Running a smal militia I think I might be better of having a dozen technicals rather Thanks one tank. There is aften all a need to be mobile, patrolling,raids to be made etc.



One tank is worth a lot of technicals in combat - for one just the fact that the crew is under armor and protected much better than a gun truck or technical is worth a lot in combat.

Plus you have the ability to use the weight of the tank for crushing attacks that a technical doesnt have, plus the ability to have a fully armored pillbox when you are low on fuel.

If you want to see the value of even a single tank in combat look at the landings on Tarawa - only a couple of the USMC Shermans in the first day got ashore and survived to fight with the Marines - but their effect in supporting the Marines was very important.

You can see their effect clearly in the Europe modules - one of the reasons Krakow is such a powerful force is the fact that they have operational tanks left in their arsenal.

Even a single operational platoon of tanks has a huge effect on the operational capability of any unit.

[James Langham]

A tank is worth a number of technicals IF USED CORRECTLY. Compare the losses between Chad and Libya in the Toyota Wars where techincals with ATGMs dominated. In my TW2000 background this fueled the US light infantry experiments with FAVs.

[Apache6]

For home guard and militia units, I believe that the conversion and maintenance of gun trucks, armored and equipped with MGs, grenade launchers, rocket launchers or ATGMs is going to be far more effective than the repair and maintenance of AFVs, particullarly tracked vehicles. It's just easier to maintain wheeled vehicles, and they are FAR more common, and so are their parts.

Yes, select units might be able to repair and maintain and operate an old M-48 tank taken off display at the local VFW.

I think just about any community of any size could convert and maintain far more gun trucks. Selecting a common base vehicle for conversion would make sense and result in lots of parts being availalbe. For example a county public works fleet with a fleet of heavy trucks used for snow plowing/salting..., or a construction companies fleet of dump trucks would be a good place to start if the company has 20 dump trucks, six might be converted with the others being stripped for parts.

Is a M-48 more effective then one (or 10) gun trucks? For what mission? Patrolling the roads, no, the gun truck(s) is better. Supporting an assualt against a fixed enemy position? The M-48 is better. Mobile offensive operations? I think in general several gun trucks would likely be more effective and certainly 'cost effective' then a single tank. Convoy security? Gun trucks are better. A tank undoubtedly has a prescense that a gun truck does not, and may very well be able to deter threats that the gun trucks can not.

[WallShadow]

One factor I haven't noticed being mentioned is WHERE the fighting is taking place--is it in the crossed and re-crossed continental battlefield of Europe, or is it in a somewhat-devastated but not by armies area, like most of the US or Canada.

The prevailing available firepower that a vehicle might encounter is one of the factors that will drive a locale to generate 10-20 guntrucks over one relatively invulnerable but resource-hungry back-from-the-boneyard M48. Something that has a reasonable chance of surviving a hit from a relatively easily-available anti-tank munition--say, a 40mm HEDP GL round-- would seem to be the lowest common denominator. Just how many LAWs, Recoilless rifles, Carl Gustav's, bazookas, or RPG-7s are floating about the area will be weighing heavily on the defender/refurbisher/road-warrior' mind.

And then you have the home-grown MRL system hatched from PVC pipe and homebrewed propellant & warhead filling, as described in Urban Guerrilla...if you're smart enough to make them, is your predatory neighbor also that smart? Or smarter? Shaped charges are not hard to make, kids!:)

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that there is a very functional use for an old Stuart, Sherman, M48 or M60 that was brought back from the boneyard or was a collector's tank (and there are lots of them here in the US by the way that are fully operational, some with live barrels) - and that is as a deterrent to attack.

Even if the tank never goes on patrol, never does convoy escort, heck never even leaves the town square, a lot of marauders would think twice about taking on a town that has an operational tank as part of its armaments. That was one reason that Krakow wasnt sacked in Poland - because they still had those tanks and other towns didnt.


Think about the fun during the initial escape from Kalisz everyone had - for those trying to get across the bridge at Sieradz those three tanks there, only one of which was fully operational, really made it a pain in the butt, especially as the rest of what was there was basically close to unarmed (half of them only had pistols if I remember right)

Take those three tanks out and its a cake walk to get across that bridge with any kind of armored vehicle - with them there you better be packing a Bradley or a M-1 or have Humvees with TOW launchers on them or you arent going to make it on a vehicle

same with Home Guard units - its one thing to take on gun trucks armed with a 50 caliber MG - its another to take on a functional Sherman tank that has shells for its cannon and a crew that knows how to use them

[natehale1971]

Does anyone have any good reference pics, maps/floor plans of a National Guard Armory facilities? I'm going to see if i can get my roommates to take me to the old Armory and the new one this weekend so i can take some pictures to get a feel for them so i can get a good idea of how to capture them in what i've been working on.

[Legbreaker]

I think you might run into a few security issues if you try taking pictures. If you don't, somebody on site isn't doing their job properly!

[natehale1971]

I think you might run into a few security issues if you try taking pictures. If you don't, somebody on site isn't doing their job properly!

The old armory shouldn't really raise problems since it's the one i am wanting to get the most info on since it was originally built back in the early 1900s... thankfuly the wife of one of the senior NCOs in the local Guard unit use to work with me at the Wafflehouse before my accident, and i'm hoping that he'll be able to help me with my questions. :)

[bobcat]

another thing to consider is the effects on improvised tanks. such as the modified artillery tractors used in Chechnya. not the best armor in the world but better off road capability than gun trucks and can bring a bit more bang to the party.

[HorseSoldier]

I'd also have to ask where the ammo is coming from for any tank using a gun earlier than the 105mm. Even if local militias can get the engines running on WW2 vintage armor or M48s doesn't mean they'll have access to one single round of main gun ammo for those tanks. If there is any ammo buried at the back of some bunkers in insane war reserve or to support foreign military sales, that doesn't inherently imply that there is either will or ability for post-TDM senior American commanders to push those assets out to local militias, whatever their loyalty.

[Targan]

I'd also have to ask where the ammo is coming from for any tank using a gun earlier than the 105mm.

Absolutely. I and several other posters in this thread have been discussing the use of obsolete MBTs with the assumption that main gun ammo would either be negligible or non-existant.

[dragoon500ly]

I'd also have to ask where the ammo is coming from for any tank using a gun earlier than the 105mm. Even if local militias can get the engines running on WW2 vintage armor or M48s doesn't mean they'll have access to one single round of main gun ammo for those tanks. If there is any ammo buried at the back of some bunkers in insane war reserve or to support foreign military sales, that doesn't inherently imply that there is either will or ability for post-TDM senior American commanders to push those assets out to local militias, whatever their loyalty.

There is 76mm ammo stockpiles, on Navy bases. These were issued to the Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates for their Mark 75 gun system. Currently there is no active 76mm ammo production lines, although one is mothballed for future use.

There are still DOD stockplies of 75mm (M-24), 76mm (M-41) and 90mm (M-47/M-48). The oldest ammo lots date back to the Korean War and these are being sold off via military assistance sales or being dismantled. The production equipment has been sold off or broken up, in the case of 90mm back in 1978.

Source for this is the Congressional Records.

[Olefin]

Many collectors have access to main gun ammo - there are several places in the US where you can pay to fire the main gun on a tank at targets with real rounds. And if you can make mortar rounds (as per canon that mortars and mortar rounds are still in production in many small machine shops) then you can make tank rounds as well, but at a higher effort of course.

Even a shell packed just with high explosives is more than good enough against your average gun truck or improvised armored car or roadblock.

So the assumption that main gun ammo is non-existent or neglible is an incorrect one. It is available if you know where to look for it - and if you can buy a tank, then you know where to get rounds.

Now does that mean they have hundreds of rounds sitting in a warehouse in the back of town - no of course not. But a basic ammo load with maybe a few extra's - yes very likely.

[Olefin]

Thought you guys might enjoy this link to a youtube video showing a guy putting together a round for a 75mm Pack Howitzer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoMbtXMXOIw

Keep in mind - all you need to own live rounds in this country for things like anti-tank guns, tank guns and howitzers is to get the approval of the ATF - I worked with a guy in Georgia who was restoring a 57mm anti-tank gun with a live barrel and already had in his possession ten live rounds that he had to be able to show upon demand to the local ATF representative that he still had all ten of them.

[natehale1971]

Also remembert that decommissioned Rounds are actually pretty easy to recharge if you know what you're doing... there are fish camps here in North Carolina that has old decommissioned large calibur rounds that they attached ropes too to use as barriers for the waiting lines. if you have the empty shell casings they can be reloaded and recharged if you have access to reloading equipment... or have the machinery to make it.

as an example, my family has a full machinery shop that inculdes a portable forge, and lots of scrap metal that can be smelted and used to create new things.

[Legbreaker]

Pretty much the best "home made" round that could be expected would be little more than solid shot. Once you start with fuzes, spin arming, shaped charges, and other more advanced ideas, it goes beyond the capability of most people, even if the tools are available.
Civilians in general don't have a clue how modern weapons work. It's unlikely (although not impossible) there'd be more than one or perhaps two people in a community with experience firing such weaponry - less chance of somebody with first hand knowledge on how they're made in the first place.

[dragoon500ly]

A basic antitank round can be made out of stainless steel, this is basically the round that was used during WWII.

HE rounds require fuses and these are a bit harder to make (okay, quite a bit harder to make). During the 1948 War of Liberation, the Israelis made a home built mortar called a "Davidika" This carried a 30lb charge of TNT for a warhead. So difficult was it for the Israelis to make a relaible mechanical fuse, that they resorted to an older technique. Slow match, i.e. you lit the fuze and then fired the mortar. It worked, but eventually the law of averages caught up and a fuse burned at a much faster rate than expected.

Sure it can be done, but as Wojo can testify, it will be at the expense of reliablity, not to mention assorted body parts...

[Olefin]

"Sure it can be done, but as Wojo can testify, it will be at the expense of reliablity, not to mention assorted body parts... "

and as was shown in the video there are people with the skills to properly load shells - they may be rare

but if Krakow has Wojo making shells then I bet you can find a simliar plant in Twilight 2000 in Chicago or Detroit or Des Moines or wherever - for damn sure New America would have found people like that and gotten their hands on them

and even if all you can make is a stainless steel dart - that will do the job against a bank armored car for sure - or right thru the engine block and the armor around it of a gun truck

thus the idea of a Home Guard or militia unit being equipped with tanks that have shells is a very real idea for the game

[Legbreaker]

Sure, it's possible, but likely in most cases?
I think not.

As a GM, it's up to them to make a case by case decision of course, based on a number of factors which only apply in their game world. All we here can talk about (unless specifically mentioned or implied in the books) are general situations which may, or may not apply.

[Olefin]

I disagree with you Legbreaker on it being unlikely - but it depends on the country

if we are talking countries with lots of old tanks either in storage or in the hands of collectors then its actually very likely to find Home Guard or militia units with working tanks and shells to arm them

US - Very likely - lots of older tanks in the hands of collectors, ATF allows shells to be bought legally and there is a lot of knowledge in this country about creating shells - tanks could have from half to a full basicl load of shells on a very common basis

Great Britain - likely - again lots of older tanks in the hands of collectors - shells would be harder to get so most likely any tanks found would have very few shells unless they were newly made

France - same as Great Britain

Canada - similar to Great Britain but may have more shells due to trade from whats left of the US

China - likely - large amounts of older tanks in stockpiles as well as shells - which could be raided by local militia groups or issued legally by the govt or whats left of it to sanctioned Home Guard units

Soviet Union - again likely due to the huge amount of tanks and shells in stockpiles all over the country -

Places where its unlikely

Japan - very few tanks and almost no collectors of tanks there

Korea - same as above

Eastern European countries - likely that they have tanks that could have been captured from the Soviets or the US or were put back in running order that were abandoned - unlikely that any tanks are from collectors as not allowed in Warsaw Pact countries

So if you are running a game based in the UK you may find a militia unit with an old Centurion tank but it may only have three or four shells

while in the US they could have a couple of Stuarts and a Sherman and full loadouts

now that doesnt mean they are everywhere - but a lot more common here in the US than anywhere else except perhaps China and the Soviet Union

[Targan]

Now does that mean they have hundreds of rounds sitting in a warehouse in the back of town - no of course not. But a basic ammo load with maybe a few extra's - yes very likely.

Very likely? I just can't buy that. I'm not saying that no ammo would be available for any obsolete tanks, but I am saying that if an old tank is in the hands of a non-Regular Army unit and a long way from any known compatible ammo storage sites, it's more likely than not that it has either very little ammo available or none.

We are talking about a role playing game though. You can suspend disbelief all you like. If the story is advanced by a local State Guard or militia unit having a WWII era tank still running and a full load of main gun ammo, that's great. That is likely in a few rare cases. But if I was a player in a game where every second State Guard unit across the nation was running a couple of obsolete tanks and the main gun ammo never seemed to run out, my ability to suspend disbelief would be sorely tested.

Looking at it from another angle, what a great idea for a CONUS adventure. The PCs are tasked by a local CIVGOV or MILGOV commander to visit a distant militia or State Guard unit that's running one or more old MBTs that are very short on main gun ammo. The PCs are given limited authority to engage in negotiations with the State Guard commander who has made inquiries regarding sourcing some old main gun ammo, which the PC's commander has some stocks of. The State Guard commander has something that the PC's commander could definitely use so they do have a bargaining position. On the other hand, the PC's commander would very much like to get his hands on one or more old MBTs. A terrific opportunity for some non-combat role playing. If the PCs are smart they could leave everybody involved, including themselves, in a win-win position. Or they could choose a darker path and try to swindle the State Guard commander out of some valuable assets.

At the end of that sort of adventure you can end up with a unit armed with old MBTs and adequate, if not plentiful, main gun ammo and it all makes perfect sense.

[Legbreaker]

I agree that the US with it's relatively lax weapons laws (compared with the majority of civilised countries) is going to have a higher proportion of ammunition available. However a 50+ year old Sherman with a full load of 75mm High Explosive (HE), White Phosphorous (WP), Armour Piercing Capped (APC), Armour Piercing (AP), Smoke (SMK), Chemical (CHEM), and/or High Explosive Anti Tank (HEAT) is just too unbelievable. :wtf:

SOME rounds, sure, but only the basic types of solid penetrator (APC being a possibility) - the others are sure to be rare in the extreme. IF a community/organisation does happen to have a full ammo load, you can bet there won't be many/any explosive rounds in the mix, especially if the vehicle has seen combat.

Machinegun ammo on the other hand will be plentiful, provided the required belt link is available.

[natehale1971]

this is aggrivating... i had a good post ready to go, and now i can't find it...

today i contacted three friends aboiut this. One is an engineer and blacksmith up in Canada who was the armorer for the Roman Legion reinactor unit he was part of. He made all their swords, shields, armor and spears...hes the one who made my American Patriot kite-type sheild that can stand up to small arms fire...

He was telling me what it would take teo recharge and get old AFV brought back up to combat capable assets. Some he said would be easy to get back up and running but would be more morale building units more than anything else.... namely setting them in the town square, and having them supported by large anti-armor guns (to make the main gun of the tank look as if it can fire and destroy appraching attacker unit).

The support with light Mortars with snipers equipmented with anti-tank or anti-material rifles would go a long way to make said AFV capable of dealing with any criminal element coming your way.

It's the determened raiders who you'd have to come up with a plan on how to deal with them. Take Kevin Cosners post-apoc movie "The Postman"... a force like that would need to be dealt with in a way that completely wipes them out, tricks are good to get them over extened... but you still need to make sure the ambush you are getting them into will be a tpk...

The Home Guard would have a high concentration of the older vets, working with the Law Enforcement, Emergency Services and the like... they are the ones who you want to be the most visible of the defenders. They are the police and peacekeepers whom are responsible for keeping the peace. watching for troiubles and keeping people in the communit calm and living their lives in a manner that won't get them selves into a polce where they would get themselves killed.

The Militia units would be the romers who go out and patrol the borders, do the recon and scouting missions to keep the community informed aboiut what is going on in their region. take the way that the people in the TV Show Jericho used the Jericho Rangers. they were part scouts, part spys, part special warfare operators... they dealt with threats as far from home as possible... they gathered intelligence and brough it back home so that the community leadership could do the right thing.

The creation of a militia engineering unit whose main job would be to construct all of the fortifications and create the kill and free-fire zones... to build ambush traps and the like... Constrcution vehicles would also be able to be modified into lightly armored combat vehicle.

i wish i still had all i ahd written out. the info on what the three guys i talked to tonight would be amazin gto share.

having Gunsmiths, blacksmiths and engineers working with military veteran armorers would be able to create, build or refurbish the recovered collection AFV... Depending on the facilities they have available.. they could turn an older armory into a factory producing munitions, spareparts, refurbished vehicles, body armor and the like.

It all just goes to what they have acces to... so i am working on a set of tables of community resources.

Anyone who wants to help out building the tables, please let me know... and when we get them written up, we'l be abl to post them here and maybe get them into the fanzine.

[dragoon500ly]

The critical shortfall in any kind of ammo manufacturing is the presence of a a decent machine shop. Herein lies the rub, most machine shops rely on deliveries of material, they don't maintain stockpiles. Its a great idea to smelt material, but machine shops don't smelt, they fabricate.

So at the very least, our local militia would need access to a machine shop, trained personnel, a foundry, raw material and above all, a source of power.

I hate to say this, but I truely feel that any town with a combination of all of this would be the exception and not the rule.

[schnickelfritz]

Ammunition? For the 90mm in the M26/46/47/48 & M56 Scorpion (threw that one in for laughs), you might get some practice and a small quanitity of semi-moldy live rounds from some storage site..somewhere. Those familiar with them could comment bettor on that.

For most anything alse, the ammunition would be largely home brewed, probably using the services of local chemists and machinists.

That includes the 75mm and 76mm from the M4/M18 and 3 inch from the M10, 75mm from the M3 GMC, and 75mm from a variety of WW2 German pieces (except for the L70 on the Mark 5 and JgPz IV/L70, all ballistically similar).

Think it can't be done? Shaped charge munitions are nothing new and industrial/military explosives can and will be located.

In many cases, that will involve disassembling military rounds for other ordnance, most likely. Not a job I'd want, but desperate times...

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvncpT4EVzQ

That's a 90mm T8 AT Gun..most of the footage I've seen involves solid shot the owner made himself using old brass casings.

There are 57mm M1/6pdr AT guns out there firing solid shot too. They had one on "Lock n Load with R.Lee Ermey"

For what you need to do...knock out some bank armored car or M-113, you don't need tungsten core anything at these calibers....4140 pre-hardened or even soft will do the job just fine.

An example and/or cutaway training round would work well as an example for sizes of the projectile.

Before some of you have a fit over some outfit/municipality having a pile of ammo for their 57mm/75mm/90mm because they have a source for explosives and a talented machine shop, owners of such guns (self propelled or towed) would be certainly limited in how many casings and therefore rounds they could make.

Unless you have some collector with a full load of deac 37mm rounds for their M5 Staurt / M8 Greyhound for show putposes....seen that at a show at least once.

I see no situation where a town could just shell a biker gang willy-nilly. It would be fun to watch, though.

Not was much fun as a quad 50 chopping them to bits though, but that's just me!

However, I really wouldn't want to be some NA kook ordering his armored car(s) up only to see it(them) take 90mm steel solid shot right through the grill. Ouch.

Of course, sourcing ammunition (90mm cannon or 105mm howitzer most likely) or parts for a cannon or tank could be a nice mini adventure in itself.

Are live cannons from private/museum sources possible in the US? Umm, yes.

Are they more of a threat because all you've got are a dozen or so rounds for it? Yes to that as well.

My $.05

Dave

[natehale1971]

Blacksmithing equipment can be pretty easily acquired or built... if you have someone who knows how to do it. Community Colleges and Tech Schools are great places to get the materials you'd need if there isn't a fully stocked up machine shop, automotive grages and the like.

several national guard armories have faclities for repairwork on AFV, they have materials for working on the weapons maintained in the stockpiles there...

It all takes is time to gather everything you need, and then it takes more time for getting the work on refurbishing decommssioned weapons, eqiupment and gear started. things would go faster if the tech school teachers and a good number of students are still in the area to become the core of the people doing the work under the supervision of highly trained engineers, armorers, gunsmiths and blacksmiths,

It takes time to get these things set up... and it takes time to do the kind of work needed.

Which makes the adpotion of orphaned weapons, equipent and vehicles of raiders by defenders all the more important for any communiity.

Home Guard being the most public face of the community defenders, especially since tney would be law enforcement and keeping the peace with the remaining police, fire & rescue/emergency services personnel combined with much of the Veterans in the community whom are to old or phyiscally unable to go out in the field being the very core of the Home Guard...

the local miliita units would be your rough and ready types who would have alot of hunters, physically able vets, boyscouts and the like whose greatest strenght would be their mobility and their extensive knowledge of the area of the surrounding territory while they preform their patrols, set up ambush zones and the like.. keeping the smaller threats as far away from the community, and when the find something they can't deal with... to aleart the Home Guard to get ready for a fight...

[schnickelfritz]

As far as the stockpiles of material at machine shops goes....I disagree. I'm an Engineer by trade and have 13 years' experience designing tools (and 6 years' other stuff). I work in manufacturing and most of the places I've worked at have a tool room and all had a maintenance department with a small to medium stockpile of common materials (4140-1018-4340, some exotic tool steels, plus brass and/or bronze or bearings). You'd be surprised what some of these places have...and once society begins to grind down, that material isn't being used for new tools or machine parts.

I don't necessarily mean raw material for production product, but for maintenance (machine and tool) purposes.

Production raw material stocks would run out fast. We keep a good stock at work, but it still wouldn't last long...probably just enough to shut down from lack of orders.

I should add some context...what I mean is that in most areas you will be able to find a good 10-30 feet of some form of 4"-5" round steel stock, probaby not in one place, and maybe a mix of several types of steel, perhaps a length of something they got for a long gone project.

I would try to make it all from one type for consistant ballistic performance.

I think most GM's could limit it to enough shot for 30 rounds or less including some training and proof firing.

Again...obtaining raw materials could be a good...mini adventure! Railyard search anyone? Creepy old factory?

-Dave

[Olefin]

Just to be clear - when I say that its very likely that an older tank or AFV in the hands of the milita/Home Guard could have its full basic load of shells I meant that it could have enough shells to fill its racks.

However I didnt mean that they would have a huge mix of shells of all the various types that that tank or AFV was issued when it was in the hands of the US military.

So you could have a tank that has its full load of shells - but every one of them is a solid shot shell made by the local machine shop or could be a mix of HE shells and solid shot shells.

As for a machine shop having the capacity to make shells - it really depends on the size of the machine shop - my home town which is pretty small (4700 people) had a very large machine shop in it that employed over 400 people that made all kinds of parts and castings for Ford. They had a very large stock of material on hand and could probably turn out shells for quite a while in a situation like we describe here.

They werent a mom and pop shop with six employees located in a small prefab building - but a very large independent set up. Those kind of machine shops are the ones that could be very useful to the Home Guard or militia or State Guard unit (western NY after all) that is lucky enough to have that shop in its area of protection. And the town was using water power to generate power for the town and sell it to the local utility so in that case that shop could still have full electrical power.

Now that kind of machine shop would definitely be the exception not the rule for sure.

[Apache6]

For a militia or home-guard unit, a decent bomb squad would be 'fairly capable of providing the knowledge to design fuses and make "home made explosives." Compined with machine shop capabilties this could be very powerful/useful to the Militia (or a maruader band.)

Land mines and IEDs are fairly simple to improvise. Grenades as well, the first were simply metal balls filled with blackpowder and lit by a burning fuse. I would not think rifle grenades would be that hard to manufacture.

Fuses for explosive rounds are harder, but not impossible. Different types of shells would have to have different types of fuses. exploding rockets, mortars and then cannon shells might need different fuses to function after the increasingly high velocities.

"Barrage Rockets would not be hard to improvise, but 'accurate rockets would be more challenging. Recoilless rifles have been improvised by the IRA, but they require a quality steel and knowledge to make the breach. I could see a "bazooka" making a come back, perhaps firing either HE or shaped charge rounds.

Munitions for AFVs. The easiest round to make for any gun would likely be a 'cannister or 'shotgun' round. It could be as simple as a black powder charge behind the approbriate weight of ball bearings, lead shot, marbles, rocks..., initiated by an electrical current passing through a glow plug or some such.

Solid shot would require some maching but should not be that hard for a machinist to make, with tools common in high schools.

High explosive shells would be fairly easy to make. Reliable mechanical fuses for them more difficult.

Electrical ignition might be easier and more reliable, but then your rounds are likely going to have to have a battery, and thus a 'shelf life.'

In a game many years ago, my PC once helped design and modify a fire truck into a AFV. The chassis was already heavily reinforced and designed for decent cross country movement. We armored the cab and crew area. A 'armored basket' added to the ladder allowed a MMG (or ATGM if we had any missiles) to be employed from behind cover. By putting thickened fuel into the tanks, the swivel mounted fire nozzle on top of the vehicle became a massive flamethrower. We intentionally did not fill the tanks as we did not want to be sitting on top of 1,500 gallons of home made napalm.

[HorseSoldier]

For most anything alse, the ammunition would be largely home brewed, probably using the services of local chemists and machinists.

That includes the 75mm and 76mm from the M4/M18 and 3 inch from the M10, 75mm from the M3 GMC, and 75mm from a variety of WW2 German pieces (except for the L70 on the Mark 5 and JgPz IV/L70, all ballistically similar).

Think it can't be done? Shaped charge munitions are nothing new and industrial/military explosives can and will be located.

In many cases, that will involve disassembling military rounds for other ordnance, most likely. Not a job I'd want, but desperate times...

Desperate times lead to desperate measures and such, but once we start talking about places where electricity is a rationed resource, distribution networks break down not just for materiel but also for expertise, and all the other particulars of the situation post-TDM everything gets harder and harder. It gets to be a Clausewitzian friction sort of equation -- right now, today, in the real world, I could probably get brand new solid shot rounds of 75mm fabricated easily relying on local machinists, internet orderable components, and expertise I could find online or call from where ever (and ignoring, for the sake of discussion, any ATF or other legal legal issues). Too simple, provided the money to do it.

Post-TDM though, friction enters into the equation, and gets towards the realm of "everything is simple, but even the simplest thing is nearly impossible." I'm not saying there's no possibility of some local militia (or warlord) fabricating new ammo for an antique, but I believe it would be sufficiently improbable that for all of CONUS you could probably count on one hand the number of antique AFVs successfully resurrected along with their primary armament.* Maybe anywhere from as many to 2-3 times as many antique tanks where local communities had figured out ways to turn the main gun into a breech loading blackpowder cannon (much less optimal but it still results in a tank you can drive around a little and make go boom, which will deter a lot of marauders).

(* Of course if one really wants to have vintage armor being part of a local militia or other organization CONUS, they could have always located a national emergency stockpile like in Allegheny Uprising, only one that hadn't been updated since the mid-50s or so, complete with vehicles, spares parts, ammo, etc. Obviously not more than a one-off scenario, but unless guys with that equipment set were living in the shadow of one of the more powerful MilGov or CivGov cantonments it would make the associated local militia the dominant power group in the local area, even with minimal to zero skill on how to most effectively utilize the assets they have.

(Plus there's probably a cool mini-campaign in there somewhere with PCs wandering into some isolated mountain town in the Smokies, various New England mountain ranges, Rockies, or elsewhere and find them locked in a death struggle with a well equipped New America cell. A couple of observation rolls later the PCs start noticing that there sure do see to be a lot of M1 Carbines in evidence . . . wait a minute, is that an M2 carbine? And does that guy in the guard tower have a BAR? . . . etc.)

[Olefin]

Sorry HorseSoldier but I personally know of at least thirty tanks, AFV's and other military vehicles in the US that fully operational, with live tubes and in the hands of civilians - mostly re-enactor groups but also people who work with Hollywood as well.

You can run your campaign anyway you want after all - but having less than five AFV's running in the whole US post TDM from all the tanks, armored cars, scout cars, half-tracks etc.. - that is way too low.

And there is canon to back that up - look at the Grenada module - what do you find in a garage but a fully operational (only lacking a battery and the heavy machine gun) M113 APC

Now if a guy in his garage in Grenada can have a fully restored and operational M113APC then I highly doubt that in a country hundreds of times bigger there are only five AFV's in similar condition

Heck there are re-enactor groups that have multiple tanks that have live tubes and a collector in CA near San Francisco that has literally dozens of AFV's, almost all of them restored to fully operational status

and there was still electrical power even after the nuke strikes per several of the modules - eventually most of it stopped working but there would have been time for people who know what they are doing to get that old tank up and running with some shells to fire (from what is described in Last Submarine it took months until the last of the oil fired electrical generating stations they got back up and running ran out of oil and went off the grid for good)

and if you own an old tank you probably have lots of tech manuals as well and drawings - including instructions on how to make the shells

Plus the Soviets invaded Alaska and made their move on the Pacific Northwest prior to the nuke attacks on the US - once that happened every one who owned an old tank and every town that had one in front of its VFW would have been putting them back into service and making shells for them or getting them from the US govt - nothing makes you want armor like "THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING, THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING"

Most likely post TDM you are looking at probably 100-200 old tanks, AFV's, etc.. spread out all over the US in the hands of New America, local warlords, independent towns, militias and Home Guards, if not more with probably just as many acting as pillboxes where all they got working was the guns and thats it - and with very few of those who own them wanting to give them up to MilGov or CivGov to go fight the Mexicans or Russians or each other when it leaves them wide open to maruaders or NA

[Legbreaker]

The existence of the vehicles themselves isn't the issue.
It's the existence of their heavy, or even secondary weapons in a workable state (including availability of ammo) which is.

Now I can't speak specifically for the US, but I'm pretty damn sure there's some serious laws and restrictions on private, aka non-military ownership of heavy weapons. We've heard here on these very forums that each and every 40mm HV grenade launcher round needs it's very own expensive licence - and they're just a tiny explosive compared to tank guns!

How many hoops need to be jumped through, fees paid, and expansive forms filled out (in triplicate) for just one heavy weapon to be maintained on a mobile and armoured mount?

Yes, the possibility is there, and yes there are a few examples, but I bet even those examples have at least the breach blocks removed and placed in some damn secure storage somewhere separate from the vehicle.

So, getting back to one of my earlier points, if these vehicles exist, and knowledge of them is common enough so that members of this forum know about them and their location, what's to stop the government/military from simply checking their records and sending out a truck to collect them as a war appropriation, with the owners being given a receipt and promise of later restitution (utterly useless post nuke)?

[Olefin]

First off the government probably has a lot more to do on its hands than go and picks up a bunch of obsolete tanks and AFV's after the nuclear strikes - if anythign they may license such owners to be members of lawfully deputized militias

Second - you can own a fully operational tank, cannon, AFV, you name it - and live shells as well here in the US as long as you pass a background check and pay a fee - its actually pretty simple

heck just yesterday I saw an add for a live barrel fully functional 57mm anti-tank gun with live rounds being offered for sale

with the breech fully in place and ready to go

The US is a lot different from other countries in the world - you would be amazed at what you can own here - for instance their is a guy in Nevada who owns two fully operational mini-guns - they have been featured on several shows

and there are places that have operational tanks where you can go fire live rounds - its expensive but they are for real

The reality is that the US is the one country post TDM that you would find tanks and AFV's in the hands of ordinary citizens.

As for other weapons - you had to be there during the Rodney King riots in LA when it was being openly discussed on TV that the reason the Marines and National Guard hadnt come into town yet was that they were worried they would face gangs armed with LAW rockets and Redeye missiles. They had reliable intel that the Crips and Bloods had at least a dozen LAW's and three Redeyes.

Heck I have been to a gunshow right here where I live where a guy had for sale an operational 20mm AA gun just last year. He had the forms right with him that you needed to fill out for the ATF if you were interested in owning the gun. He hauled it to the show in an open trailer like it was totally normal to be pulling a trailer with an AA gun, which apparently it was.

[schnickelfritz]

So, getting back to one of my earlier points, if these vehicles exist, and knowledge of them is common enough so that members of this forum know about them and their location, what's to stop the government/military from simply checking their records and sending out a truck to collect them as a war appropriation, with the owners being given a receipt and promise of later restitution (utterly useless post nuke)?

Leg...I love you man but no, no, no.

The US Government is not going to go knocking on some guy's door post TDM to inquire about a Pak 36 or M1 AT Gun or whatever here and there. It just will not happen. It won't for the lack of resources.

I believe the license you refer to (others more involved with them, please correct) is a Class 4 Destructive Device permit.

The US 37mm in the Stuart and M8 have a breech that attaches to the barrel via acme threads.

Again, I think the key here is context...you will run into a crew served vintage ATG/Flak/Mortar/Light Howitzer with a handful of shells once in the proverbial blue moon. If there is a museum of any kind in the area, the chance will be more likely...obviously. There are 2 or 3 German 75mm ATG's, with probably twice that many 37mm ATG's in the US. There at most maybe a dozen live US M1 ATG's in existance and maybe a few dozen US and German AFV's in the US coast to coast outside of large formal museums in running order. Some have live breeches, some not.

In the grand scheme of things, their impact will be barely felt, but in the right place and time they will be all the difference in the world to the owners.

The US M2/M3 Half Track, M8/M20 armored car and M3 Scout Cars will be by far the most common AFV you will find in municipal/county/private use.

Gun trucks will be the most common encountered...there are a lot of commercial/government dump trucks in the US.


-Dave

[Targan]

Remember we're talking pre-1997 too. Might not make a huge difference but I'm willing to bet that there were fewer obsolete APCs and MBTs in private hands in the US 16 years ago than today.

Also while I agree that town machine shops may well have the capacity to produce main gun rounds for obsolete MBTs, the suggestiion that it's an easy task and every town with an obsolete MBT could and would do it is just fanciful. It should definitely be the exception rather than the norm. And as I've said earlier in this thread, it would make a good adventure hook. That way if the PCs have had a hand in helping a officially affiliated militia get their tank's main gun fully functioning it will have an air of plausibility.

The idea that larger militia groups in the Twilight War CONUS with obsolete MBTs and main gun ammo would be common enough not to be a big surprise is just too far from my idea of T2K to seem plausible to me.

[HorseSoldier]

The existence of the vehicles themselves isn't the issue.
It's the existence of their heavy, or even secondary weapons in a workable state (including availability of ammo) which is.

What Legbreaker said. A tank without main gun ammo is a mechanically and logistically expensive bluff, or at best a very expensive way to move a couple machine guns around the battlefield. I'm sure a lot of places would use them either way, but I'm pretty comfortable with estimating the number of places that would have

A) a working tank
B) necessary ordnance expertise
C) tools and materiel

needed to be turning out even small numbers of built-from-scratch rounds of main gun ammunition is going to be miniscule.

And some of those are going to lose their club membership when their homemade ammo destroys the ordnance on their AFV or catastrophically kills the whole vehicle.

and if you own an old tank you probably have lots of tech manuals as well and drawings - including instructions on how to make the shells

I can't speak for what they put in 1940s and 1950s TMs for vehicles, but no vehicle I've ever been issued a tech manual for had instructions on how to fabricate ammunition for them. Most owners of old AFVs probably do have Ordnance Corps circulars and such giving specifications for the sorts of ammo that were available for their vehicles. I'm guessing a much smaller number have any sort of actual detailed technical specs for that ammunition (actual dimensions, propellant used and quantity, specific projectile weights and dimensions), and even fewer have real nitty-gritty details like pressure levels developed when the round goes off, maximum safe pressures, necessary specs for metals used in casings, etc etc etc. Even much smaller circle of guys who have any information on how to convert 1940s era specs for things like propellant to use modern equivalents or in post-nuke America will either personally know, or have access to people who know, how to reliably cook up a recreated batch of vintage propellant.

By the time you get to post-nuke antique tank owners who have all of the above and access to the means to do quality control on ammunition (i.e. guarantee safe pressure levels and not just blow the cannon up -- or just produce a consistent enough product that the gunner's sights aren't just decorative) . . . you're probably down to a club which has a total of zero members. Or maybe, just maybe, enough to count on one hand. Like I said, maybe a bigger club where guys have figured out how to turn their Sherman tank into a mobile 75mm breech loading black powder cannon -- easier to keep fed, lower pressure levels means less risk of bad QC wrecking the gun or vehicle, etc.

The reality is that the US is the one country post TDM that you would find tanks and AFV's in the hands of ordinary citizens.

Therein lies another rub. Pre-TDM I agree with the idea that the .mil isn't going to cut bodies loose to go out and hunt down every M60A1 and earlier AFV on static display that will crank.

Post-TDM? With the country falling apart, court system on hiatus, and logistics essentially just gone? Anything of military value is going to be considered military property by the units left in CONUS, and subject to seizure.* Especially something like an AFV, working piece of artillery, etc. There may be some compensation provided for the seized property -- though honestly after the nukes, the real selling point the .mil can offer is letting an AFV owner and his family come live inside the wire of a cantonment rather than any sort of financial remuneration or barter.

I'd conclude, then, that the lack of any reference to pre-M60 tanks being in the hands of MilGov or CivGov forces strongly suggests that it is because there are very, very few (if any) functional pre-M60 tanks still running by the year 2000, and those that are lack ammunition and other critical components of the logistics side of the house. Those that have made it are probably in the hands of out of the way groups, as far as any serious fighting is concerned, and probably the best organized groups that have both electrical power and a food surplus to spare on personnel maintaining labor intensive vehicles with very limited day to day value. (In a world of limited resources, do you have your available heavy vehicle mechanics spend 100 man-hours a month keeping your M4 or M26 or whatever in working order, or using that same amount of labor to keep ten agricultural tractors working, for instance.)

(* I'd venture to guess that both MilGov and CivGov opt for some partial disarming of the populace they can get their hands on, as well, something like we've done in A'stan and Iraq -- a rifle per household for militia service and personal defense, with maybe the same idea for pistols, and maybe shotguns and .22's excepted entirely, but anything in excess subject to seizure to help equip other militia units, etc. I'm sure that would be unpopular and passively or actively resisted in places, but I'm also sure it would happen.)

[HorseSoldier]

In the grand scheme of things, their impact will be barely felt, but in the right place and time they will be all the difference in the world to the owners.

This is what I see, as well.

I could definitely see where an antique AFV played a role in some scenario where PCs had to help good guys who'd resurrected one or face bad guys similarly equipped. But nothing outside of the Twilight War era military supply system is going to have any real meaningful military impact or be a major threat or benefit to organized MilGov or CivGov (or NA) forces.

[Targan]

So Leg and I aren't alone in our feelings on this issue. Phew.

[Olefin]

Targan, you and Leg are not from the US. Australia and the US are very different in what you can legally own.

And there are more tanks in the US than you would think

http://www.armyjeeps.net/armor1.htm

Now some of these vehicles came from Europe - like the Hellcats for instance -and you have to ignore the Russian ones as without detente they never are offered here for sale - but others are US vehicles - and this is just one site

So what is for sale on the site

2 WWII Stuarts, 3 WWII Shermans, an M75 APC, a M114 APC, a Ferret, an M3 Scout Car, a Chaffee, a M113 and a M47

let alone the Mule complete with working 106mm recoilless and the Pak 35/36 German WWII 37 MM Anti Tank Gun ( Built 1940 ) that is all original

thats one site, showing vehicles spread all around the US

Remember guys - when I say they are likely it means that it is not stretching the bounds of credulity to have a militia or Home Guard unit with a working tank in it - and also keep in mind that a hundred to at most two hundred working AFV's spread throughout the US works out to 2-4 working tanks/AFV's per state a the most - not exactly an overwhelming force of tanks that throw a game out of balance - i.e. I dont see a Sherman, a Stuart, a Ferret and an M48 in the hands of militia groups in Minnesota changing the balance of power in the US

it adds an interesting dynamic and makes for nice surprises to complicate character's lives as well as give them possibly a nice way to lay their hands on some armor to give them an edge - for example when we were on our way on the Allegheny Uprising scenario our GM had us find encounter exactly such a militia group that was armed with a Stuart tank - as all we had were two HMMVW, with one armed with a .50 we made it a priority to acquire that tank - which we did using subterfuge as well as in the end a firefight that we won

[Targan]

Targan, you and Leg are not from the US. Australia and the US are very different in what you can legally own.
True. And I consider myself lucky for it every day.

Remember guys - when I say they are likely it means that it is not stretching the bounds of credulity to have a militia or Home Guard unit with a working tank in it...
Note some of my previous statements in this thread.

State Guard company commander: "Oh my God, those bandits down in Smithsville have got themselves some kind of armoured vehicle, initial reports suggest it's a Sherman tank. We have to deal with them before things really get out of hand. We need to take that tank intact if we can, if not we have to destroy it".

Looking at it from another angle, what a great idea for a CONUS adventure. The PCs are tasked by a local CIVGOV or MILGOV commander to visit a distant militia or State Guard unit that's running one or more old MBTs that are very short on main gun ammo.
So clearly I regard these sorts of scenarios as being plausible.

it adds an interesting dynamic and makes for nice surprises to complicate character's lives as well as give them possibly a nice way to lay their hands on some armor to give them an edge...
I agree. I think you're shadow boxing here. No one is suggesting there won't be old MBTs and other fighting vehicles around. What I question is how easy it will be to keep them fuelled, maintained, provisioned with spares and provisioned with main gun ammo. I think they will have all these things in rare instances (much more likely if they're being operated by Regular Army/NG than State Guard/militia/individual towns/bandits). It's the suggestion that if you find a group operating an obsolete MBT that they will likely have it fully operational and stocked with main gun ammo that I find difficult to swallow.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Being a bit of a mil vehicle nerdboy, I'm somewhat involved in the military vehicle collection scene and I'd like to add some information. This info is both a positive and a negative to part of this debate. Keep in mind this is a pretty general overview of the state of affairs and exceptions did and still do occur.

During the 1980s there were, at the very least, a few hundred working military vehicles from the 1910s to the 1980s in the hands of collectors and museums in the USA.
At that time, there were very few forums or magazines devoted to the mil vehicle collection hobby, Wheels And Tracks and the magazine of the MVPA (Military Vehicle Preservation Association) being some of the few English language publications that allowed collectors to sell/trade vehicles, parts, manuals and equally importantly, information about where to find things.

But the hobby was growing larger and stronger during that time so that by the 1990s and particularly the 2000s, other magazines and internet forums joined the network and essentially raised the profile of the hobby.
As the hobby took off in the 1980s and 1990s, social connections were made with clubs in various Western European nations to compliment those already in North America and the UK which further facilitated the enlargement of the database for vehicles and spares.

In the USA alone during the 1990s, it was possible to find everything from various marques of Jeep, assorted recovery vehicles, 1940s to 1960s GS/cargo trucks, fuel tankers, ambulances, Dodge CUCVs, various civilian and military command/staff cars, WW2 Dodge WC squad vehicles, M37 trucks, various Kaiser Jeeps, Bren Gun Carriers, Kubelwagens, tank transporters, early manufacture Humvees, Ferret Scout Cars, M114 Lynx recce vehicles, all variations of M2 and M3 halftrack, M2/M3 and M24 Chaffee light tanks, M3 Grant, various marques of M4 Sherman, M48 Patton and T34 medium tanks, C15TA armoured carriers, White Scout Cars, Saracen APCs and SdKfz halftracks.

Many of the vehicles didn't have fully working armament but some did. Easily two thirds were NOT tanks and to keep most of these vehicles running was bloody expensive - it was definitely a hobby for those with lots of disposable income and that holds true even more so today.

With the raising of the profile of collecting military vehicles by private individuals came an increase in the social network available to collectors. This network cannot be overestimated and it is very much a primary reason why the hobby is so well represented today.
Those vehicles, especially the 1940s-1950s era vehicles, required extensive logistics networks so that collectors could find needed parts to complete their vehicles. This was facilitated by the social networks that grew up around the hobby.

It's the sort of thing that is like say, there's a supplier with a warehouse of spare track for an M4 Sherman in France, a Belgian collector with 5 x Bren Gun Carriers for sale, a canvas supplier who does a sideline in tarps and covers for WW2 Allied military vehicles in the USA, a group of adverts in the Dutch mil vehicle magazine with someone selling a few radios, someone else selling a set of Tiger tank exhaust pipe shrouds and someone else offering a wiring harness for the electrics in a Ferret, the local approved British government disposal agent selling 28 x RB44 trucks in good condition and 8 x WMIK 110 LandRovers in worn condition, someone who located a truck mounted comms shelter for a Dodge M880 in a farmers barn in Canada, a friend of a friend who has a half restored Bedford K2 Ambulance and a fully restored Harley Davidson WLA MP's bike that he wants to swap for a Dodge WC64 Knock Down Kit Ambulance and a website selling tins of unopened paint in official NATO cam colours.

It's that sort of thing, you can't just walk down to the Quartermaster's Store and put in a request for this stuff. You can't even walk down to the local wreckers yard and find this stuff. You very often cannot find all the parts you need in one particular place. Sometimes you spend years tracking down parts for a particular vehicle even in this age of email and instantly uploaded web photos.
If it wasn't for the various shows, living history displays and trade magazines that came about to support the collectors, many of these vehicles would be sitting half complete because the social networking allowed collectors to share info on vehicles and spares and also about fakes and scams.

Now back to the game, during the Twilight War, this social network is going to be torn apart and many of the suppliers for the hobby won't even have a chance to come into existence (considering that many of them came into being in the 1990s or later).
So while I can absolutely see a mid-sized town in the USA having a few M4 Shermans, the ability of that town to keep them operational will get less and less the longer they operate them simply because there will not be the long-range support network that the hobby currently enjoys.

The ability to find suitable spares will be incredibly impaired by the effects of the war and they will get worse as the war goes on because the guy maintaining those M4s will not be able to phone his friend in the next county to ask about spares let alone contact someone in the UK who had a shed of M4 parts (assuming that the town the UK supplier is in wasn't bombed etc. etc.)
Yes there were a lot of spares kept in war stores until the 1970s and even later but when the spares were disposed of, many of them went to scrap metal merchants who cut them up for the money, other spares were sent to friendly nations and only a (relatively speaking) handful made their way onto the collectors market.
In game, it's certainly possible to find some abandoned military storage facility that has a bunch of spares for a 1950s vehicle but these would be rare finds and probably the basis of an adventure for the PCs.

[Olefin]

Well thats why the game being so flexible is a definite asset - in your campaign you can have tanks be very rare and almost out of ammo where in mine they are somewhat more available and in some cases they have full racks (either because its all homemade steel shots or because they either got the ammo legally from the govt or stole it from a depot)

getting parts also makes for good adventures as well

my GM did an adventure as a change of pace using pre-rolled characters where we had to escort three trucks full of ammo, M14's and M16's, spare parts and 90 rounds of 90mm tank ammo from Cairo IL to Green Bay Wisconsin for a militia that had declared for MilGov that needed ammo for two tanks they had and spare parts in exchange for electrical parts and four guys who had worked at power plants and refineries in the past

quite the adventure - the peacetime 9 hour drive took us four days to make the distance due to various issues including fighting off two marauder attacks and negotiating with a third group - and in the end deliveriing the supplies just in time to fight off another marauder group

then turning around and getting home again afterward with the men and electrical equipment

end result - we made it, the refinery under MilGov control and a local power plant had people who could do some repairs and improve efficiency and MilGov control in Wisconsin expanded

[Olefin]

The war starting however may have actually made it easier for some of those tanks and vehicles to be put back into commission - especially once the Russians invaded Alaska.

Now you have the spectre of invading Russians in everyone's minds - and the local collector and his tanks become very important to people and the towns they are in - so getting them back in shape also becomes important.

And you can get all kinds of info, drawings, etc.. - with those in hand its just a case of making the needed parts. So again its one thing with a bolt from the blue war were the US gets nuked on sunny Tuesday morning.

its another where they have been fighting over a year before the nukes hit and people have a whole year to make damn sure that if the Russians do come they have something to fight them with

and they had the internet in 1995-98 - so the ability to get parts and info online was there

[Olefin]

Targan - what do you mean by shadow boxing? Honestly never heard that term before and if its in any way a violation of how we should be doing posts here then I will immediately cease it and apologize.

Cynic does raise a good point in the availability of older army trucks - all of which would make great vehicles to turn into gun trucks - which of course is another thread entirely.

[Legbreaker]

Cynic does raise a good point in the availability of older army trucks - all of which would make great vehicles to turn into gun trucks - which of course is another thread entirely.

Note he mentioned specifically the crippling shortage of parts for not just tanks, but ALL military vehicles, especially those with a little age on them...

[Olefin]

and spare parts can be made - I work for a company that routinely gets spare parts made to drawings that were released back in the 1970s' - and you can order TM's from the government easily enough - as I said you have to believe that anyone with an old military vehicle after the war commenced and especially after the Russian landing in Alaska did their best to get that vehicle/AFV/tank into fighting shape.

And vehicles can take a lot of abuse - a few years ago a collector found a bunch (15+ Stuarts) that had been sitting out in the open on a Brazilian ranch under covers since the 1960's, full of hornet nests. Several of them, once the nests were removed, started up immediately and could move on their own power as soon as they were fueled.

These arent high precision systems like today - they can take a lot of abuse, jury rigging,etc.. - most likely in the post TDM world the last Shermans and Stuarts will still be operational long after most modern vehicles have broken down

[Legbreaker]

*throws hands up in disgust*

Sure they can be made, provided there's a whole list of resources available as at least two very knowledgeable members of this forum have stated.

You don't have those prerequisites and your vehicle is so much useless scrap metal - far better to use more modern vehicles for which parts are more easily scavenged.

Old vehicles are simply too much trouble by and large to bother with UNLESS you've got a decent supply chain behind you.

[Targan]

Targan - what do you mean by shadow boxing?

Sorry, what I meant by that was you're partly arguing with yourself. It's not a criticism and I acknowledge you've been quite civil in this discussion.

We agree on many things. In fact I've learned much from this thread. It's not the presence of a significant number of obsolete fighting vehicles in the CONUS that I'm arguing against. I think you've done a great job in demonstrating how many are likely to be around. It's their likelihood of being fully functional in most cases that I'm arguing against. Post-nuke I think it would be much harder than you're positing to come up with POL, parts and ammo. Not to mention technical know-how.

[Olefin]

Thanks Targan - now I see what you mean.

I have a different opinion of how many would be functional - but there are different kinds of functionality that still make them useful.

Look at Krakow - they have a bunch of tanks - but only five are really fully functional. The rest still have working guns and thats about it - so they have fourteen tanks - but in reality what they have is 9 turreted steel pillboxes and five functional tanks

And even a tank that doesnt have a main gun working is still very much a deterrent if the enemy doesnt know it isnt working - you have to have a lot of guts to be the one who goes out there to see if the only thing that tank has still working is the .50 mounted on top.

But I would think we can all agree that the discussion has opened up several new ideas for possible missions to either obtain parts, obtain working tanks or do a deal for ammo and parts with people who need them.

[Legbreaker]

Krakow is like comparing apples and oranges when we're talking about the US - other countries, actually in the conflict zones may be another matter altogether.

Krakow's defenders are the remnants of an entire Polish Division, including many of their supporting elements.
A US town/organisation isn't going to be starting from such a position of obvious "strength" - at best they'll have an old vehicle or two, which may have been kept in a semblance of working order by a private owner or group of volunteers before the war. Many of these vehicles as Stainless mentioned, are also unlikely to be armoured, or intended to carry armour.

Tanks, APCs and AFVs in general are absolute BEASTS to maintain, even in peacetime when parts can be sourced from all around the world. Come the break down of civilisation as we know it and, as has been said before, that job becomes near impossible without a decent stock of parts, machinery, skilled technicians, reliable power supply, etc, etc, etc

So, in conclusion, it's possible to find the occasional WWII or Korean era AFVs in militias, but they're far from a common occurrence, regardless of ammo.

[Targan]

So, in conclusion, it's possible to find the occasional WWII or Korean era AFVs in militias, but they're far from a common occurrence, regardless of ammo.

I have to agree with this. It will happen but it won't be common. And as the post-nuke years roll by increasing numbers of those obsolete AFVs in non-official hands will end up being taken by MILGOV/CIVGOV. In many cases it will be done in a fair and/or friendly way, in other cases not, but it will happen. And let's be honest, an obsolete MBT is more likely to stay up and running and supplied with POL/fuel/parts/ammo if it's in MILGOV/CIVGOV hands.

[bobcat]

ans far as getting things operational the older kit has several key advantages

1) most collectors i know and every machine shop around here has a collection of old army training manuals that cover field fabrication of parts. these are from as late as the 1950's so later vehicles would be less likely to be covered but if you know what your doing(which anyone working in a machine shop should) you can make similar parts for the newer kit.

2) most of the vehicles used in ww2 where made in whatever factory was available from actual manufacturer production factories to bicycle factories. because of this the parts were designed to require as little machining as possible while still remaining effective.

3) with gas production at a minimum cars can be used for source material to keep equipment operational.

4) while everyone seems focused on getting the main gun operational many communities will just make due with what they can make operational. ie; raid the local walmart for model rocket parts and mount a rack of barrage rockets on the old M48 in front of the VFW.

now im not saying every town, village, and sewing circle is going to have armor. but you guys are turning popping a blister into brain surgery.

lets face in in Chechnya during the 90's various factions were improvising tanks with whatever was handy. are you so certain your neighbors would be less creative?

[Targan]

1) most collectors i know and every machine shop around here has a collection of old army training manuals that cover field fabrication of parts.

So, just so we're clear on this, every machine shop in your area has a collection of old army training manuals covering field fabrication of parts for obsolete military vehicles? You'll have to forgive me if I find that statement really hard to believe.

[dragoon500ly]

So, just so we're clear on this, every machine shop in your area has a collection of old army training manuals covering field fabrication of parts for obsolete military vehicles? You'll have to forgive me if I find that statement really hard to believe.

The local machine shop in my home town is run by a military collector, he also does jobs for the local air transport service, he has a very extensive collection of aircraft manuals for C-47s, C-46s and C-119s, as well as manuals on various US WWII armored vehicles (there are three Shermans and a Stuart on the Mississippi Gulf Coast) a collection of WWII OSS manuals for improvised munitions, booby traps, home made firearms; so it is possible to find a collector with such a stash, BUT.....this would be exception, maybe 1-2 in an entire state.

On the other hand, Paladin Books used to attend all of the state-wide and regional gunshows and they sold an extensive line of survivalist material, including copies of the "Poor Man's James Bond Manual", "Improvised Munitions", "Anarchists' Cookbook" and other such classics.

[Targan]

So I should assume, unless I have specific information to the contrary, that in every town in America the majority of machine shops will have an archive of documents covering parts fabrication for a variety of obsolete military vehicles and heavy calibre ordnance?

[Apache6]

I agree that AFVs are logisitcally intensive beasts that are hard to keep running in good times and will be extremely challenging to keep running in T2k. If for no other reason then fuel consumption, I believe that many (most?) units, would reserve their functional armor for specific offensive actions or to be employed as part of a counter-attack force in 'defensive operations.'

But for a fun adventure, three CONUS sites that have lots of interesting vehicles, maintenance faciliities and at least pre-war a wide range of experienced staff are.

The Patton mueseum at Fort Knox, Ky. Had/s a extensive collection of AFVs from WWI on. Including US, allied, friendly and captured vehicles. Very extensive maintenance facilities at the Mueseum, not counting those aboard the rest of the base.

There was an extensive US Army armor testing facility at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Aberdeen MD, which has A LOT of one off prototypes, 'acquired' WARPAC kit and allied kit, as well as several obsolete pieces of kit. Very importantly they had a HUGE knowledge base of scientists, engineers and machinists that good fabricate just about anything.

Finally the National Training Center at Fort Irwin CA (and to a far lesser extent the USMC base at Twentynine Palms CA) have good collections of historic US armor and significant collections of 'threat kit.' At Ft Irwin, some of the vehicles were US standard vehicles visually modified to look like Soviet Kit. I know there was a fully function Ontos (lightly armored tracked vehicle carrying six 106mm RR) at 29 Palms in 1989.

Again, I don't believe that in T2K armor would be common, but there are 'possibilities' to work in some interesting kit.

Tasking a group of PCs returning from Europe to build a 'armored brigade' composed of recalled retired veterans and raw recruits, equip them with the collection of vehicles from any of the above, procure munitions and lead them against Mexican Army, New America enclaves in KY, or maruaders in NY or VA could be an interesting campaign.

[schnickelfritz]

I believe it can be summed up pretty close to this:
1) Tanks-AFV's and Large Caliber Cuns in municipal/private hands will be present but rare.

2) Ammo will be improvised and/or limited in most cases. Armament may be improvised as well.

3) Military transport vehicles outside of larger and/or ferderal formations will not be very common and most likely not in very good running condition due to age and lack of spares.

4) Large weapons/Tanks/AFV's will mostly exist as threats and for worst case scenarios.

5) Gun trucks built primarily from commercial vehicles (dump trucks the most common and easiest to convert) will be the most common big armored vehicles in most areas.

Does that make sense?

-Dave

[Legbreaker]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

[HorseSoldier]

5) Gun trucks built primarily from commercial vehicles (dump trucks the most common and easiest to convert) will be the most common big armored vehicles in most areas.

Sounds like a plan in places where you have a good supply of machine guns and other automatic weapons -- and dump trucks, since I'd think most places would have a lot of non-military use for functional dump trucks. On the plus side with a dump truck, however, you could probably up armor the cab and then make everything in the cargo bed removable -- some brackets to hold a frame keeping a double stack of sandbags in place on the sides, weld on some weapons mounting points, and if your need for a dump truck is greater than your need for a gun truck, you just pull all that stuff and send it to the job site or whatever.

[Legbreaker]

How about a flat bed or container carrier - build a removable "bunker" using a shipping container as the base and lift it onto the back of the truck when it's needed. When it's not mobile it could be used as a pillbox.

Would have to armour up the cab a bit, but if done right, the armour could stay in place even when the fighting unit wasn't loaded.

[WallShadow]

(SNIP)

But for a fun adventure, three CONUS sites that have lots of interesting vehicles, maintenance faciliities and at least pre-war a wide range of experienced staff are.

The Patton mueseum at Fort Knox, Ky. Had/s a extensive collection of AFVs from WWI on. Including US, allied, friendly and captured vehicles. Very extensive maintenance facilities at the Mueseum, not counting those aboard the rest of the base.

There was an extensive US Army armor testing facility at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Aberdeen MD, which has A LOT of one off prototypes, 'acquired' WARPAC kit and allied kit, as well as several obsolete pieces of kit. Very importantly they had a HUGE knowledge base of scientists, engineers and machinists that good fabricate just about anything.

(SNIP)

Again, I don't believe that in T2K armor would be common, but there are 'possibilities' to work in some interesting kit.

Sad to say, Aberdeen's field of armor is in truly sad shape and from what I saw of the display pieces back in the 90s, unrestorable without massive effort and resources. The knowledge base, however....

[Legbreaker]

Provided those people are still there in 1997, 98, etc...
Younger ones may have been drafted, older people died of radiation, starvation, and so on. And that's not to mention those who may simply have moved away to supposedly safer locations less likely to attract a nuke.

[Targan]

The questions in my last two posts still haven't been answered. I remain keen for responses to those queries.

[bobcat]

well as for the availability of the knowledge. reprints of these manuals are quite common and since around '95 have been available to download for free which is how i got my copy. however with the EMP's knocking out large numbers of computer systems and power fluctuations it may not be accessible for everyone everywhere.

that said with the soviets pushing onto american soil long before the nukes hit more and more people are going to be grabbing these and myriad other field manuals just like they did for Y2K, and every other "dooms day" scenario. so assuming most good machine shops have the know how is not overly stretching credulity. granted this mainly applies to the older tanks and AFV's its not like i can go down to jim's car repair and expect him to fix up a Bradley fighting vehicle but a ferret armored car or an old sherman is an entirely different matter and is actually feasible given the scenario(including the desperate "make it work then worry about the doctrine later" attitude anyone who's still alive in 2000 would have.)

[Legbreaker]

I'm yet to be convinced the internet is a viable option for gathering information in the T2K timeline. I personally didn't even bother with dialup until about 1999 - just didn't see much point in "this new fangled thing!"
How many other people felt the same way I wonder? How many who did have reliable net access could see the potential value in downloading manuals?

Y2K may have seen a run on manuals, and T2K may be seen in a similar way, however how many of those manuals were about survival, farming and the like, and how many were mechanical manuals for old, obsolete and somewhat rare ex-military vehicles?

Edit: Also, just how much was even available online back then? We're used to almost instant gratification of our desires for information today, but it was a very different situation 16 years ago!

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

I saw allot more field and tech manuals in my local surplus place and collectors of such than on the internet of the time. One friend of mine had a virtual library of such books, with the various history books and such. He was a big time miniatures war-gamer of WW2 and Vietnam/Modern (as was I) Heck even the National guard armory had some old manuals when they cleaned it out in around 2000.

So combined with the aspect of portable generators, skilled and semi skilled personnel, collectors inventories, and military leadership. I would imagine with the american mindset they would get the old surplus stuff up and running to active but limited duty.

[kato13]

Edit: Also, just how much was even available online back then? We're used to almost instant gratification of our desires for information today, but it was a very different situation 16 years ago!

My first BBS download, of the Anarchists Cookbook, was in October of 1984. (Not a typo) The US Army's Ranger Handbook was my second. I worked in my High school's print shop so I had bound paper copies the next day.

It certainly was not instant at 0.3kbs but all kinds of stuff was available.

As far as the internet, it was used frequently by college students here as early at 1991 and it was my career by 1994.

If you want to look at when information exploded onto the internet it was when PDFs became readily available and that was around 1993.

Even pre PDF I was part of an effort which included converting a boat load of vehicular technical documents into an electronic format for Firestone's Service centers. This was an attempt to create one of the first intranets in 1990.

[WallShadow]

This thread gave me a mental picture of Bobcat, Dragoon, and Olefin standing around the VFW memorial M4 Sherman in the town square comparing notes and ideas on how to resuscitate her, while Legbreaker and Targan are kibitzing within earshot on how impossible it's going to be.

Me? I'm going to add my 2 cents of constructive criticism and be mentally searching my brain for any sources of info, parts, and materiel needed to fix her up. And, being a military history geek, that would include any Technical Manuals I personally own or know of in any of the local used bookstores or military surplus stores.

[Legbreaker]

Nobody is saying it's impossible, just implausible.

Sure, there are resources out there - technicians, tools, raw materials, power, fuel, manuals, technical drawings and specifications, and all the other bits and pieces needed such as food, and labour which can be spared from the fields. The problem is it's likely to be a very rare occurrence that all the necessary factors are all going to be in the one place at the same time when they're actually needed.

Crack that rather major problem and there's no practical reason why a community can't have a fleet of AFVs at it's disposal.

[WallShadow]

Then again, you have to weigh the benefits of neighbors' reactions: "They got a TANK running! Let's not mess with them." or "...let's be friends with them in case we need to borrow it some day." or "maybe they can help us fix some of our machinery for trade goods", or "maybe they can help us beat up the evil overlord threatening us from the town down the road", balanced against the problems of "They got a tank running. Let's go steal it/fight them for it/destroy it so they can't use it against us/capture or kill their technicians."

Heck, even being seen _working_ on a (actually hopeless) tank could provoke any of the above reactions--from offers of mutual support agreements to triggering pre-emptive strikes on the soon-to-be well-armored community. As well as internal strife about allocation of the community's resources (now _where_ did that idea come from? :rolleyes:). And is the work on the Sherman for real, or is the town just running a big bluff? This can be a nice adventure-seed producer! :D

[Olefin]

I keep hearing that tanks and AFV's in the hands of the militia in the US would be implausible? Hmm you mean implausible like ...

A successful Soviet invasion of Alaska before nuclear war broke out?

Mexico conquering almost all of Texas, half of CA, almost all of AZ and NM and then somehow holding onto most of it post war?

The Italians, Greeks, Spanish, and Portuguese all turning their backs on their NATO obligations and in the case of the Italians and Greeks declaring war on NATO and actually invading fellow NATO countries in support of the Soviets?

The Belgians, the majority of whom are related directly to the Dutch, going along without any concern with an armed invasion and occupation of the Netherlands and not one single unit mutinies against the order?

MilGov somehow allowing the Oklahoma refineries and oil wells to be lost at the end of 2001 when it probably represents 90% of their available oil?

Not one single WWII prop plane, let alone light attack jet, being in the hands of MilGov to use to shoot down the ultralights and dirigibles of New America when they had enough aviation gas to maintain very occasional air contact with New England?

The US military,including the USMC who has never abandoned its people for any reason, going home and writing off several intact (by year 2000 standards) divisions, including an USMC division, cut off behind enemy lines while the same enemy is beginning to collapse and thus make it possible those men can be retrieved?

etc..

Guys you have to keep in mind that the making of the implausible into "reality" is the heart and soul of the Twilight 2000 canon. Thus given all the above implausibilities that we accept freely as part of the canon of the game, I dont see the existence and operation of tanks and AFV's by municipalities and milita groups in the US as being implausible in any way.

If you can accept those implausibilities, the city of Des Moines, Iowa having two old Sherman tanks and a Ferret as part of its militia is pretty easy to swallow.

And not trying in any way to get anything started about the canon of the game or anything else. Just trying to show how we accept multiple implausibilities every day as part of the canon.

[kato13]

And not trying in any way to get anything started about the canon of the game or anything else. Just trying to show how we accept multiple implausibilities every day as part of the canon.

Not to mention the penchant for the PCs to run into "the last" or "the only" of just about everything. By the gaming logic even if there were only one Sherman in all of the United States odds are the PCs would find it ;)

[simonmark6]

That's a fair point. Right, I'm off to write up the PC encounter with the last Sherman tank in the US with its hover-motors and laser guns.

[Olefin]

Agree with you there Kato - between Reset, the Madonna, the last working steam locomotive in Poland,etc.. it got to be repetitive

thats one reason my GM changed The Last Submarine to have more than one surviving sub and the purpose of the adventure was to get the other survivors back into operation - it was too much of the same in his mind

[Olefin]

That's a fair point. Right, I'm off to write up the PC encounter with the last Sherman tank in the US with its hover-motors and laser guns.

Dont forget its equipped with ablative armor as well.

lol

[Legbreaker]

"National" implausibility, such as Greece leaving Nato is a totally separate issue to the "practical" implausibility of masses of obsolete AFVs just laying about in working order.

We can prove how difficult it is to get old AFVs up and running. We can't prove one way or the other the other issues Olefin referred to as somehow the same. :wtf:
It's like comparing a battleship to a gold mine - both important in their way, but that's about where it ends.

Just because there's Soviets in Alaska and Texas does not mean old AFVs are under every stone!

[Olefin]

No one has said there would be AFV's under every stone - the game's balance does not dissolve if there are municipalities, militias and Home Guard units spread around the US with working older tanks, AFV's and other military vehicles.

Any more so than the Grenada module's balance was dissolved by the players finding and using the restored M113 APC on the island or that the Texas module would be unbalanced if the characters managed to capture a Mexican or Soviet armored vehicle.

Considering most Twilight 2000 games are so out of balance that playing them straight is an exercise in learning how to roll up lots of new characters (try playing Kidnapped with a group of 4-6 characters and surviving it or better yet trying to take on the pirates in Grenada who are walking around like military Christmas trees draped in ammo and grenades with a party armed as the game describes it) I hardly see a few hundred vehicles at the absolute most, most of which would be stationary most of the time just to conserve fuel, spread across the entire continental US as throwing it out of balance.

The US and Australia are very different as to what people have in their possession and what is available for restoration - heck just in the Detroit area alone I have heard of three working US tanks, a German SPG from WWII, and over half a dozen working howitzers and anti-tank guns, all in the hands of private collectors, and all with live barrels and breech blocks. There is a warbird museum near my hometime that has over a dozen flyable WWIi fighters and attack aircraft that could be armed very easily.

And as for machine shops - all they would need is drawings and they can make barrels, shells, you name it - you need qualified machinists and power and materials and it can be done - and there is no way that every qualified machinist in the US has been killed.

Can you make stuff in huge abundance - no of course not - but enough can be made for a few vehicles - and no town, unless it has a military base near it, a museum, a large size vehicle collection or a military production facility like Lima or York does, will have more than a few old AFV's and tanks.

And if you look at the specs of lots of those vehicles on Paul's page I dont see M3 Stuarts and M47 Chaffees and other such old vehicles as making things much different in the US than previously depicted.

[rcaf_777]

Just a few thoughts

There is a huge collection of military maunals in Tooel Utah - http://www.armyjeeps.net/Tomlin/Tomlin%20Collection.htm- scroll all the way to the bottom

from the site "This is 1,500 linear feet of manuals on 50 plus shelves, weight about 20 Tons. There are 30,000 plus, one each documents. The Library includes very comprehensive collections of TM's, FM's, TB's, SNL's, TB Ord's, FSMWO's, Etc."

So I think it quite possible to PC to find FM or TM in alot places in US.
also I think that many guard units might have nessary techs already

State Guard: What did you in the Army/Marines
Tech: I was a tank mechainc from 68-72
State Guard: Great we job for your welcome broad Sgt Major
Tech: When I left I was only a Sgt
State Guard: Well your a Sgt Major now, Next

Lastly I don't it too much of stretch for the PC to find an old AFV/APC in Texas/CA/NM. The many could have hidden away or it by passed cause nobody knew what do with it or did want it headache of trying to figure how they were going to maintain it fuel ect.

[Olefin]

In our adventures in the US when we got home we found the M113 APC in Grenada and put it to good use, a Stuart tank we took off some marauders in PA (we took down two guards and two mechanics silently to get it, then set off one heck of a firefight getting it out of town - just try starting an old Stuart tank silently), busted out of the MP brigades perimeter when they went CivGov using a M113 to do it (that then ran out of fuel a few hours later and we didnt have a still with us) and found an old White Scout Car complete with MG with its dying owner nearby after his militia group got wiped out by New American forces in Arkansas.

Of those vehicles two were canon and two were added by our GM.

And finding an old tank/AFV in a barn and having to put it back into shape is a great adventure that can involve all your skills and possibly do it all without having to fire a gun in the process for those who like problem solving, salvaging and bartering kinds of encounters.

[Apache6]

While this thread has largely been about the ability to resurrect old AFVs the original question was what is the ability of the "Home Guard and Militia units" to sustain themselfs and produce munitions. For this I'm discussion I'm mostly looking at US locations.

- I think before TDM, the military would have ramped up production and orders for munitions. With the break down of the infastructure associated with nuclear strikes it is not illogical that some large amounts of munitions were lost/cached/misplaced/in container lots of nuked cities (where they may have or may not have exploded). (Possible good adventure hook: A vet blinded in exchange tells you that X containers of first rate modern munitions intended for Europe was in the harbor at Y port when it was nuked. He thinks its still there and incredibly valuable. If its there the area around it may be very HOT.

- I think most decent colleges, and certainly all agricultural or mining schools, chemistry departments have the foundational knowledge to make base components for munitions. Black powder is fairly easy, smokeless powder and explosive components more challenging. Primary explosives for primers and initiators more challenging still. But the information is available now, it would have likely been more readily availalbe as the nation moved to war footing.

Small Arms:
- Reloading of revolvers, shotguns and some rifles (30-30 for example) with black powder is very doable. Most automatic/semi auto firearms will not reliably work with black powder.

- Reloading of modern rounds, if smokeless powder is available, is easy, and thousands of American hobbiest do it.

- Making smokeless powders and primers is more challenging. I'd expect that getting plants into production would be a major drive for organized groups. Once built they would produce a very valuable trading item. The technology is not that difficult, but it does assume a level of security and trade.

- In many, if not all of the modern COIN fights, over last 100 years ammunition has been smuggled into the Area of Operation. I've run a one-of campaign where PCs were tasked as security for a dozen semi trucks carrying tens of thousands of rounds of small arms ammo from Knoxville through the howling wilderness to a US "battle group" that was preparing to retake New Orleans. Lots of roleplaying opportunities in acquiring, supplying, trading for ammo.

- Making basic shotguns or bolt/lever action rifles can be done in just about any machine shop. I cannot see this being a big requirement as there are many firearms in US.

- There are also a surprisingly large number of small gun manufacturers in US, I'd expect all of them could turn out at least replica M-1 garands or M-3 grease guns, if not browning M1919A4s chambered for 7.62mm NATO. Securing, reestablishing, supplying or destroying a small factory could be the objective of a series of games.

- Several of the 'NPC' groups that I posted earlier had some of the NPCs armed with "Sten guns." I use that as a "generic" name for a simple home made SMG. A open bolt, blowback SMG is actually suprisingly easy to make. I think this is very likely to be seen. During WWII, the Soviets manufactured SMGs inside beseiged Lenningrad, the barrels were taken from rifles and cut in half to make 2 SMG barrels.

- belt feed machine guns are more challenging to manufacture and require close tolerences for both the guns and ammo. A electric powered, hopper feed gatling gun might be easier for many machine shops?

- Further up this thread I discussed manufacture of explosive munitions. Again, I think a city police bomb squad or a retired... Military EOD tech would be invaluable to that effort. As would chemical engineers, both of these are not common, but would be found in any major metro area.

[Olefin]

"- belt feed machine guns are more challenging to manufacture and require close tolerences for both the guns and ammo. A electric powered, hopper feed gatling gun might be easier for many machine shops?"

How about a good old fashioned hand cranked Gatling Gun? They were very effective guns right thru the Spanish American War - and they should be a lot easier to manufacture

[Apache6]

Olefin: Yes, hand cranked gatling guns would be very doable.

I used the electric powered one since, 1) I think in 1999-2000, you'd likely see a electric motor added, hooked up to a car battery. 2) I think it's got more post apoc flavor than a straight hand cranked gun.

Back in the day: My PC designed and had build a 76mm "compressed air" powered mortar that lobbed either molotov cocktails or explosive shells. It had a fairly low signature. I liked it, even though it was short range.

[Legbreaker]

The questions in my last two posts still haven't been answered. I remain keen for responses to those queries.

So do I, four days after they were asked.

[Olefin]

Olefin: Yes, hand cranked gatling guns would be very doable.

I used the electric powered one since, 1) I think in 1999-2000, you'd likely see a electric motor added, hooked up to a car battery. 2) I think it's got more post apoc flavor than a straight hand cranked gun.

Back in the day: My PC designed and had build a 76mm "compressed air" powered mortar that lobbed either molotov cocktails or explosive shells. It had a fairly low signature. I liked it, even though it was short range.

Thats a great idea - sounds like something that Krakow would have turned out for sure.

[Webstral]

Though I ought not to, I’ll weigh in on the subject.

I’ll repeat what someone wrote to me regarding my idea for having three BTR-80 under the command of the Shogun in Nevada: if you want to have it in your campaign, just do it. I’ll go further by saying that everyone has different ideas of what remains functional by 2001. If it’s important for you to have fairly widespread tanks and AFV in your Twilight: 2000 campaign, then you’ll find the justification. If it’s not important, you’ll find the justification.

All that said, all of the equipment under discussion is going to be of great interest to every surviving group. It will not take long before one government or another takes possession of working machine shops capable of modifying or making AFV and the equipment associated with them.

I think a quick review of the things needed for a machine shop capable of restoring non-functional tanks to working condition is in order. We all know all this stuff, but sometimes it’s useful to have a recap of the existing knowledge.

1) The machines. A machine shop needs the machines. Ideally, it will be able to make its own replacement machines. However, machine tools are less common than the machines themselves. All machine shops are not created equal. The machines for sheet metal and civilian automotive are not suited for all AFV functions. Machines for maintaining tractor trailers might be necessary for some tanks. This isn’t my field of expertise.
a. In 1997, the nation’s machine shops might be working to capacity. This is favorable for the idea of finding the right machines and people for the job of restoring old tanks to working order.
2) The skilled work force. The machine shop needs people to run the machines. People are fragile. Training a new worker to replace someone dead from starvation, violence, disease, suicide, etc. takes time. Some people cannot be replaced in the time permitting between NOV 97 and [circa] APR 01. Overall, the quality of the nation’s machinist workforce will decline dramatically because some of the dead people will be the most seasoned machinists.
3) Electricity. Without electricity to run the machines, they’re more useful as cover in CQB than anything else.
4) Proper materials. The best machinists in the world can’t do much without the right materials to work with. When one considers all of the parts that go into an old school tank like the M4 Sherman, there is a tremendous supply network stretching across the country and even across the world. The old economics driving mass production will be gone by APR 01, so to some degree local fabrication will pick up the slack. But all parts get made from raw materials. A break anywhere in the supply chain from the ground (or whatever source the shop is supposed to be using) to the finished product represents a huge obstacle.
Of course, machinists can be very imaginative. Substitutes might be found for many items. However, the substitutes, even if they work, bring their own drawbacks. Unfortunately, workable substitutes either won’t exist or won’t be found for a huge array of materials and parts.
5) Food and protection. A machine shop without a workforce fed enough to keep working isn’t worth much. A machine shop without adequate protection for the workers isn’t worth much.

By the time we meet all of the requirements for work, far fewer machine shops are going to be in a position to support bringing tanks back to life than we might imagine. Let’s remember, too, that ammunition production requires chemical stocks. Large caliber ammunition production is much more demanding than small arms ammunition production.

As everyone here knows, I’m of the school that the US basically stabilizes by Spring 2001. The nadir of food production and availability would have been in 1999-2000, provided one tosses out that deus ex machina of a drought. Of course, we have seen from real life that the US is quite subject to vagaries of the weather. Let’s hope there’s more rain in 2013 than there was in 2012. However, in most locations around the country the overwhelming majority of people will be involved in growing food, husbanding animals for food, hunting for food, or gathering wild foods. The workforce left over for all other tasks will be less than half the half the available manpower—sometimes much less than half. Demands on this workforce will include manual labor, medical functions, security, administration, and manufacturing to meet local needs. When the chief machinist tells the cantonment leadership that putting the main gun of the tank back into working order will require 400 man hours, plus another 300 to get the assembly line for one type of large caliber ammunition ready for production and another 100 per week to produce 15-20 rounds, the leadership may say forget it. Maintenance of small arms might prove more immediate.

Big cantonments like Colorado might have the ingredients for putting old tanks and AFV back in working order. Smaller cantonments just might not have all the ingredients needed and the willingness to place priority on getting those ingredients working towards the goal of restoring old tanks and other AFV to working order. So however many tanks and AFV there may be in working condition in NOV 97 across the US, the number of cantonments that have put them into working order will be very, very small. This doesn’t mean that they can’t have been dug in and armed. A working MG inside a tank turret that can be turned by a hand crank or electricity run through a wire from outside the vehicle would be both a formidable obstacle and a real morale boost for the defenders. But a Sherman capable of acting like a Sherman tank would be pretty rare in 2001 for my money.

[bobcat]

also in addition to fixing existing armor i earlier mentions improvised armored vehicles. these are not mere gun trucks however they aren't quite main battle tanks.

here is one from Syria
http://www.cardealexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Homemade-tank.jpg

here is one from a mexican drug cartel
http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20110607/shamseddin20110607003823200.jpg

here is one from chechnya
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3078/3159911165_143c20b444_m.jpg

and one from cuba
http://getpunchy.com/wordp/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/241866_10150920998168639_1509243858_o.jpg

and lastly one from libia
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3m9oD6hVs6c/TqXMjfh2-wI/AAAAAAAAAmg/5DKQUytC2hc/s1600/LibyaImprovisedTank.jpg


remember these were created under the same kinds of conditions that T2K survivors would have faced. so it is neither implausible nor impossible.

[Legbreaker]

Web, I think your post sums it up perfectly - if you want to do it, do it, but remember when you start digging into the details, it may not be as simple as first thought...

Bobcat, nice pics there. That's the sort of thing my money says will be found much more often than ex-military vehicles. They take a LOT less resources than a tank or (usually) an APC so might be found in settlements of around 10,000 people or more (provided the requirements Web mentioned are met). Occasionally smaller settlements might have one or two, but I'd think this would be the exception rather than the rule.

[Targan]

The Bob Semple Tank:
V-nSxFimoHg

Designed and commissioned by my paternal great-grandfather (my father's father's father). Dad and I are his last surviving descendants with the surname Semple. Robert "Fighting Bob" Semple was the Minister of Works in the New Zealand government during WWII. Prior to becoming a New Zealand Member of Parliament he was an Australian miner, unionist and bare knuckle prize fighter.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/files/S059_s059_2-174828.jpg

Sure, it was a strange looking beast, armor plate bolted onto a D8 bulldozer. But I'm still very proud of my ancestor and his strange creation!

http://www.ripleys.com/weird/files/2011/10/semple-tank.jpg

[Olefin]

Great post Web - and I agree with muchof what you said - remember even in the situation I postulated - i.e. as many as 200 working tanks and AFV's spread throughout the US - that you are talking about 4 working tanks/AFV's per state - now in Rhode Island or Connecticut that might seem like a lot but if you are looking at a state lying Wyoming then those vehicles are going to be very very spread out

thats why I took my home town as one of the areas that would have working AFV's because it had all the elements you described

food, electricity (waterpower from a river that ran thru it), materials (there were three huge scrap yards within 5 miles of it), a large machine shop, and enough trained machinists that some would survive

and in my case something like one out of three men in the town were veterans of either WWII, Korea, Vietnam or Desert Storm and many of those who werent were card carrying NRA members with a lot of guns - i.e. great town to not mess with for marauders

so take that kind of town as the prototype for one that would have AFV's and tanks in operation and that kind of town is the exception not the rule - thus the overall number sounds high but the reality is that it could be a couple hundred miles between towns that had such vehicles - hardly a common occurence

and since canon never mentioned them we dont know for sure what there is and what there isnt - the only real canon guide we have to go on would be the howitzers that were found in an NG armory in A Rock in Troubled Waters or the M113APC in the garage in Grenada as to what towns might have as to heavy weapons or AFV's

[schnickelfritz]

Does anyone have a scan of "A Rock in Troubled Waters" and any details on the article?

Thanks,
Dave

[Apache6]

Lots of discussion on this thread about how units would resurrect or maintain obsolete AFVs. I think that this is possible, and could be used by GM to add flavor. I think that it's at least if not more likely that PCs would encounter A FEW States Guard units, local militas... would have some types of current vehicles. How would they come by them you ask? The below are 'possible' stories that might add flavor, it's entirely possible that the PCs would never find out how a T-72 made it to the NE.

- "Johny and Jamie" are high school sweethearts called to service as reinforcements for the Tennessee National Guard, 278th Armored Cavalry Regiment. They are awaiting deployment on TDM. They take their factory fresh LAV-25 (with full combat load) and head home, hiding the LAV-25 at her Dads farm. Once at home they volunteer to support the local milita that is formed to resist the New America threat. Of course it's also possible that a local militia who had a single LAV-25, could float the rumor that they were protected by a significant number of highly motivated United States Marines.

- US forces retreating from Mexican Army (that requires suspension of disbelief) run out of fuel at X location. They drive a vehicle or two into the 'back forty' on a friendly locals farm, don blue jeans and let the enemy pass them by. Later as distilling technology becomes availalbe they are able to get the vehicles back to the fight.

- There was a significant battle or some ones Air Force strikes someone elses' retreating forces, damaging a significant number of vehicles. Due to the fluid nature of the fight, the combatants are not able to recover the damaged vehciles. At their leisure, the locals recover 17 battle damaged T-72s and 9 BMP-2 (or whatever numbers/types) and are able to piece together enough parts to make 2 T-72s and 1 BMP-2 fully mission capable, 2 T-72s and 2 BMP-2s are towed to positions as static pillboxs, while others are used as decoys/deception (the threat made more realistic as they actually have some operational vehicles). Some are not runners and their guns don't work or have ammo, "only" the 14.5mm AA-HMG remains functional. Some of the wounded crews, after being given aid, or forced may help to repair and crew the systems.

- A M-1 tank was being shipped by commercial truck was heading from Ft Knox Ky (or other location), to Norfolk, VA when conditions go bad and the driver decides to head home with his load, or he could be relatively easily hijacked. Locals have a tank and some one who knows how to drive it, but no main gun ammo or Machine Guns. Same idea could be used for a truck full of TOW missiles, or 40mm rounds for MK-19..., or even a train full of AFVs).

- Prototypes and test beds. At TDM McDonald Douglas was working on integrating a improved laser designator upgrade to the Bradley at their St Louis facility. At the same time at MIT, the physics department was working on a sensor that would detect the 'electronic emissions' from Soviet AFVs, meaning that they needed and received a T-72, a BMP-2, and a SU-152 captured in China for testing. These are pushed into action as the situation deteriorates. MIT is able to fabricate decent ammo.

- Captured enemy vehicles: Partisians capture a BMP-2 by shooting the gunner, left on guard, through the back hatch, while the rest of the crew are raping a local girl, they are gunned down as they come out. This supposedly happened in Bosnia.

[Olefin]

keep in mind that there are already a lot of AFV's and tanks in the hands of collectors here that are in working order - so its not just getting tanks sitting on display in front of the VFW or at a museum working - in a lot of cases they are ready to go and in the hands of collectors and re-enactment groups

in those cases its more a case of getting ammo for them - and there are dummy or inert rounds available that can be re-armed - its dangerous but it can be done.

so how could militia units get their hands on equipment

a) collector or re-enactment group that had working vehicles prior to TDM or got them working afterward using parts they already had. This would be a large percentage of the vehicles in place in the US and most collectors who have such vehicles not only kept them in prime working order but had a decent collection of manuals and spares for them. I.e. who is going to spend 30,000 grand for a working Ferret and then not spend another 100 for all the manuals you need to keep it working along with a couple thousand for spare parts?

b) display or museum vehicles that were taken off stands and were put back into service at some degree from fully functional to armored pillboxes (see the Krakow module for an idea of a tank converted into a non-moveable pillbox), starting most likely after the Russians invaded Alaska and accelerating after TDM until late 1998 when most areas lost electrical power for the last time

these vehicles would more than likely be stationary vehicles used to defend the town, possibly only with the machine guns working, and with limited main gun ammo as well, especially if its not an M60 (those tanks would be much more easily armed due to the NG armories still having ammo for those tanks)

c) stolen or diverted vehicles, especially post TDM, from repair depots, train yards, etc. - we ship Bradley's and M88's by rail - imagine a stalled train sitting in a yard after TDM and the local authorities commandeer the vehicles for protection - all you have to do is cut the locks off and fire them up - you would need to mount weapons on them unless due to the military situation they started having us install them for shipment (which we can do)

d) vehicles found on battlefields that were not recovered by the various militaries for some reason - I would see these more as a source of ammo, weapons and spare parts for use on other vehicles - especially be in the case of opportunistic scavengers getting to them while the battle continues elsewhere - in my campaign in Poland we ran into an arms dealer in Krakow who had 60 main gun rounds for our M1 who basically had been with the Polish army and deserted right after the battle, along with the remnants of his platoon, and who scavenged stuff out of knocked out vehicles of both sides to set himself up in business before they left

[StainlessSteelCynic]

keep in mind that there are already a lot of AFV's and tanks in the hands of collectors here that are in working order - so its not just getting tanks sitting on display in front of the VFW or at a museum working - in a lot of cases they are ready to go and in the hands of collectors and re-enactment groups

in those cases its more a case of getting ammo for them - and there are dummy or inert rounds available that can be re-armed - its dangerous but it can be done.

so how could militia units get their hands on equipment

a) collector or re-enactment group that had working vehicles prior to TDM or got them working afterward using parts they already had. This would be a large percentage of the vehicles in place in the US and most collectors who have such vehicles not only kept them in prime working order but had a decent collection of manuals and spares for them. I.e. who is going to spend 30,000 grand for a working Ferret and then not spend another 100 for all the manuals you need to keep it working along with a couple thousand for spare parts?
You'd be surprised at the number of collectors who have working vehicles but don't do the rebuild/repair/maintenance work themselves. These people do not have the manuals or an extensive supply of spares. In fact, very few of them keep extensive supplies of spares because their vehicles simply are not used as much as they would be in a working or operational situation.

Similarly, many collectors simply cannot afford to spend "a couple thousand for spare parts" when they buy their vehicles. Many of them take out loans from the bank to purchase their vehicles and live with a very tight budget to allow them to do so. It's only the most wealthy who can afford to do such things.

And as for manuals, just because some of you had access to the internet in the early 1990s - before the general public did - and could find some military manuals for download, does not mean that military vehicle collectors had access or were able to find the correct manuals. You can find reprints, photocopies and pdfs of various vehicle manuals for sale now (and some for free) because the hobby has much more presence on the internet now but in the early 1990s such manuals were still rare and quite costly and were often only available at trade shows or through friends of friends sort of thing

[Webstral]

Feeling a little odd at the moment. I threw a bucket of cold water on a survivalist who was under the impression that the difference between her family surviving an onslaught by 30 gang members (once the collapse of society has really gotten underway) was access to an AR15 v access to an M1903, shotguns, etc. I told her quite frankly that if she and her community didn’t form a local militia to tackle the bad guys in the field she and her family and were f*****, regardless of whether she and her husband have AR15 and a mountain of ammo or not. I went on further to say that isolated homesteads like the one she wants to defend will be sought-after prizes by marauders once the disintegration of society really gets underway. I described the cantonments we talk about.

Usually, I get a reply in a couple of minutes. There has been a long silence this time. I feel a little badly treating her cherished illusions so roughly, but someone has to point out to these survivalist types that the rugged individual is a Wild West cultural icon, not a viable plan for surviving catastrophe.

[HorseSoldier]

Agreed. If prepper/survivalist types can get truly off the grid and off the beaten path then maybe a nuclear family (+) sitting on top of a mountain of spam and ammo might have a chance -- but, if located with no prospects for support the truth is a homestead with, say, 2-4 adult males and same number of females (say an extended family or family plus some friends) can easily be defeated in detail. Hell, if the place doesn't have generators, fuel, water supplies, and all that sort of stuff under one roof (or at least covered and concealed routes to all of the above) a gang of 30 guys with a few shotguns for close in defense and a couple deer rifles they man 24/7 could win that fight without more than a couple shots fired. Especially if you have to leave the homestead building to water.

Of course in T2K these sorts of places that last are going to have either integrated with some sort of broader defense militia, or, if they're on arable land, turned into freehold/mini-village sort of places with enough manpower to get a crop in as well as face down your smaller bandit and marauder gangs. The ones that can't adapt along those lines or find some other solution to make themselves less low hanging as fruit goes are going to be burned out ruins by the times the PCs wander through that part of the world. A generous GM might let them find a secret stash of spam or ammo if they poke around enough, I suppose . . .

[Olefin]

here is a great example of where AFV's and tanks could come from for Home Guard or militia units - this musuem has a large collection of restored to operational condition tanks and other vehicles - this museum and most of its collection were in place in the Indianapolis area pre TDM

http://www.ropkeyarmormuseum.com/index.html

http://www.cdsg.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=442&sid=9974796c1582563654475d19e0527508

they have, among other things:

three M50 Ontos of which one is a parts vehicle

several Shermans, including the vehicle used in the movie "Tank" with James Garner ( 75mm, 76mm and 105mm versions)

a M56 Scorpion, a Walker Bulldog, a Chafee, an M20 and an M8 AC, M47 and M48 Pattons, a M26 Pershing,

let alone a WWI M1917 tank and a type 97 Japanese tank

a place like this would literally be a gold mine for vehicles after TDM - and with most of them in running as new condition it really shows what could be available here in the US

the owner and his family have a lot of spare parts, engines, etc.. as well - they are the ones who did the restorations

Could be used as a basis for a mission for sure - i.e. CivGov, who in general is starved for armor compared to MilGov, sends men to try to buy the tanks from him and if he wont give them up then obtain them any way possible

or he has formed the tanks into a Home Guard unit that by 2000-2001 is very powerful - and CivGov and MilGov are both trying to get him to come over to them

or you get a message stating how that unit is under attack by New America and unless help arrives all that equipment could fall into their hands

or you have a tank or AFV but cant get it running - and the only place to get both the parts and the know how is his museum - you get there to find its now a heavily guarded fortress - and he says sure no problem - all you have to do is go and get him parts that he needs from (fill in the blank here) and he will give you what you need

[natehale1971]

Preppers... I did a very good article about the Prepper community, and lifestyle back in 2007/2008 while in college that was spread far and wide in Prepper cicles. namely due to the fact I interviewed several preppers of varing levels of what they prepare for. I watch "Doomsday Preppers" and many times they are going for the far end of the spectrum of whom they are interviewing for the show to get ratings. Not to show the community as they really are.

Most preppers know that they can't stand by themselves, and create networks of like-minded familes so they can coordinate and work together if things fall apart and the end of civilization as we know it happens.. and many know that they can create a lifeboat for their loved ones, but that they must also make sure that they can become a safeharbor in the storm for the good people whom would be benificial to everyones mututal survival.

In North Carolina alone, there is a resort/inn and an 'old west' theme park that are owned by preppers whom have sunk a great deal of their budget in setting things up to be just that... they have plans for their own family and close personal friends. but they also are taking measures for taking in other survivors who would provide them with a larger base of personnel to hold onto their safehavens.

Now back to the Home Guard / Local Militia resources...

I've been checking out the Confederate Air Force and their restored World War Two aircraft that they are routinely renting out to television and movies... doing air shows all across the country. And I am starting to look into World War Two-era armored fighting vehicles, especially since so many of these vehicles and AFV from Korea, Vietnam and Desert Stor are now being made available on the Military Surplus Market.

The More modern military aircraft are not showing up on the market... some of the helicopters and support aircraft ARE showing up. but none of the fighter jets or more modern attack helicopters. I've read where an AH-1 Cobra helicopter gunship that had been used during Vietnam was bought by a private collector back in the late-1980s.

As well as some of the combat helicopters that have been purchased by companies that are doing the same thing as the Confederate Air Force so they can be used in movies and television shows.

but i'm not seeing anything for figher jets or the like...

which has been quite interesting.

But there is a wide vareity of what kinds of equipment that could find their way into the hands of the State Guard, Home Guard and local militias during the Twilight War and it's aftermath. Which makes me scratch my head about how well the Mexicans were able to take and hold so much of the American South West. To which I still believe that the United Mexican States had to use the years prior to the Twilight War to build up their military in not just in the kind of weapons and equipment they had access to, but in professionalism as well... UNLESS they were assisted in their invasion by the cartels, gangs and La Raza/Azteka radical insurgents.

The other reason why Mexico was able to hold onto that area, was that the local Americans chose to stay under Mexican banner thanks to the nature of the three way civil war going on between MilGov-CivGov-New America.

but that's not what i started this thread about... so it's not as important right now.

If anyone has links to sites that deal with groups like the Confederate Air Force, I'd really appreacate it.

[Apache6]

Not exactly the same as a PA environment, but the photos are of weapons made by criminals or insurgents. I believe similar would be made in PA environment.

[Apache6]

Attached photos are of technicals from African rebellions/militias and a improvised AFV from Bosnia.

[Apache6]

First picture is of a 'amphibious modification of a standard truck, made in Cuba. Also a Chinese 107 mm MRL mounted on a JEEP. The last three potos are "Live Action Role Players" but are 'semi-believable' modifications, that might be of use to a GM running a campaign in US SW. OK the one with the girl is only semi believable eye candy, but a compressed air launcher is very doable by many machine shops, and good be mounted on light trucks.

[natehale1971]

Thank you so much Apache 6!

these are great pics. :)

[Webstral]

I’m very impressed by the homemade RPG-style grenade launcher. I’d like to know more about the warhead.

[natehale1971]

I actually found a PDF of the Improvised Weapons of the American Underground on Scribd... and i'm looking for more like it to get a good idea for something i've been working on that can be used for both Twilight 2000 and the Morrow Project that was inspired by the TV show Jericho (which i've recently discovered has been continued as a comic book series that is now on my amazon wish list for stuff to get when I get the money for them).

I'm also looking for good reference pictures that would work for local militias and homeguard personnel, and the more i think about it... i'm thinking of posting something on Facebook asking for gamers and airsoft players if they will volunteer for a photoshoot that i would do to get some really good reference pics. If this does happen, i'll be definately posting them here. :)

[Olefin]

Love the improvised weapons - and you are right you can make weapons using compressed air that would be very good improvised mortars and cannons -you wont get the same range of course - but you still get the same effect. Can definitely see a Wojo compressed air mortar for instance or grenade launcher as part of the defenses at Krakow.

Can see a player who has compressed air and the ability to recharge it thinking "hey wonder if I can use this to make a weapon?"

[Apache6]

From various sources, photos from web.

Some (many?) of these I previously posted in post apoc photo thread, hope thats not against the rules on this forum?

[Apache6]

From various sites on web.

Some hunters, some paintball, some militia

[Apache6]

Including reinactors and a sheriff's posse

[Webstral]

If they were naked, half of these fat chuckleheads still would not be light infantry. I pray my liberties are not in their hands.

[Raellus]

A lot of those "militia" boys really need to step up their PT. I'm sure that in a T2K world, they'd be a lot thinner due to an apocalyptically-induced diet, but holy cow.

I hope no one takes offense at this, but grossly overweight cops and wanna-be soldiers make me shake my head- how can you adequately do your job when you're carrying around an extra 20-100 pounds? Civil War reenactors too- they try so hard when it comes to making their uniforms as authentic as possible, but a lot of them don't seem to mind that they weigh twice as much as your average Civil War era soldier did. It's quite ironic.

[schnickelfritz]

It's not just CW Reenactors. I'm a WW2 guy and man oh man there are far too many guys reenacting "high speed" units of both sides that wouldn't pass even the most basic of fitness tests. Airborne, Ranger, SS, FJ, that kind of stuff...yeesh, sometimes it goes from hilarious to downright pathetic.

-Dave

[.45cultist]

One of the arsenals (Anniston I believe) supports the special ops community and approved museums. They have everything including rare items like the WWI North American Arms M1911. They also have vehicles and store the Army's hereldry. A source of obelete gear since each weapon has all the equipment- an M1918 BAR has the gunner's belt and the spare mags.

[rcaf_777]

It's not just CW Reenactors. I'm a WW2 guy and man oh man there are far too many guys reenacting "high speed" units of both sides that wouldn't pass even the most basic of fitness tests. Airborne, Ranger, SS, FJ, that kind of stuff...yeesh, sometimes it goes from hilarious to downright pathetic.

-Dave

I recently sold most of my Cdn WWII Reenactor Gear, I guy I sold it too said it too bad I was'nt fatter as he could sold it quicker lol

[.45cultist]

They could also be used to beef up a newly formed unit. I use the Americal Division, which hasn't been used since the mutiny in the Vietnam war. using a mixed cadre of regulars, Guard, and the foriegn units training in the States and alot of militia, state guards. Armor was M48A5's originally used as targets and foriegn aid, Stingrays and M8's. A mix of M1's were scraped together with more units including some Canadians and non Mexican Hispanics who received rough treatment by Mexican border guards.

[Apache6]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/10/13/iras-recoilless-improvised-grenade-launcher/

The link has photos and discussion of employment. I can see these being employed by homeguard/milita units.

[.45cultist]

Does anyone have a scan of "A Rock in Troubled Waters" and any details on the article?

Thanks,
Dave

DriveThruRPG has the Challenge issue it is in.

[.45cultist]

I recently sold most of my Cdn WWII Reenactor Gear, I guy I sold it too said it too bad I was'nt fatter as he could sold it quicker lol

Twenty years and 70lbs ago my USAF gear fit:( But now I'd look like the militia guys.

[unkated]

Yes, I know this is old, but someone dug it up, so...

Just no. The nearest army bases are Fort drum (10 hours drive) or Fort Dix (8 hours drive). By army base standards, neither are large.

Ahem. Ft Devens, NNE of Worcester, Mass, is much closer to Vermont. In RL, it was closed in 1996; with a heightened Cold War stretching into the 1990s, probably not.

It's smaller than Ft Drum; at one point it housed an Infantry Regiment (1945-50); it later housed the 10 Special Forces Group (Airborne), and a training center for the Army Security Agency, a Sig Int organization. And of course, a supply, organization, and command center for New England National Guard units.

OTOH, I suspect the 10th SFG will be long gone by 1998, deployed somewhere. Devens would probably revert to its WW2 role as a training and collection center.

And I agree that by the time someone in the Army gets the bright idea to collect lawn ornaments and to try to get them in working condition, the centralized Army command will not be centralized enough to carry out such an order.

But, I believe that such an activity will occur to people on a more local level far faster....

"Say, Bill, you know that howitzer thing sitting in front of the VFW?"

"That old 105? Yeah. It's been sitting there since the mid-60s. What about it?"

"Could you an John from the Dept of Public Works go take a look at it and see what it would take to get it in working order? To re-militarize it? You were an artilleryman, and John keeps all the town equipment working. Oh, and we found this manual for it in the Framingham armory's record storage room..."

Substitute any other display item for howitzer. It may not work to original spec, but if it moves...

Consider being a bandit crew hitting a town. They hear a heavy engine, and then see a Sherman tank roll slowly toward the edge of town. They look down at their gun trucks, and back at the Sherman's 75mm. Some number will not wait to see if the Sherman has ammo - lack of profit in taking the chance.

And as for the Army.... "You can save your efforts, Lieutenant. We surveyed those three months ago. Here's a list showing their current state - see, all unfit for further use. Some have already been removed for scrap" (to explain why some won't be on view; really, they've been moved to a local garage for refurbishing).

Uncle Ted

[Medic]

Now ther's a funny thought.

The city I live in used to have a garrison, complete with firing ranges for up to mortars and AT-weapons other than missiles. Now it's gone save for the small regional office of the Defence Forces that serves mostly reservists. However, the rifle, shotgun and pistol ranges still exist and are still under the military control though the civilians are also allowed to use them.

Now, next to the building that used to be a messhall for the firing ranges, sits a true jewel - a StuG III. It probably has had everything but the outer shell removed when it was parked there in the 60ies (as far as I know), but with some clever welding and refurbishing, one might be able to fit in a modern diesel engine in the engine compartment for power. It won't hold against antitank weaponry, but hell, it'd scare the crap out of any raider.

[Apache6]

I know at least in the U.S., it's not uncommon for display howitzers to have the ability to fire salute rounds, but the chambers are partially obstructed (i.e. bolts through them) to prevent loading of live munitions. I think if I was motivated, I could remove the obstructions with a dremel tool.

I dug this up out of archive. Not sure if that's 'bad form' or not. Thought the IRA recoilless rifle was very T2K'is. Certain it's not beyond the ability of lots of organizations.

[swaghauler]

Don't forget that a large number of Municipal and State Police are armored vehicle users. Who can forget the St. Louis PD MWRAP in Ferguson Mo. Or the 6 "LAAV's" the PA State Police operate in their SERT division (Special Emergency Response Teams).
There would also be some question as to whether the military would be able to actually force the states to give up valuable vehicles to the military. The most recent example is the incident in 2010?(someone will have to fact check me here) where the Army wanted the states to give up their Apache attack choppers in exchange for multi-role Black Hawk utility helos. The Army was critically short of Apaches and like 12 states had Apache wings. I know they ALL refused to surrender their Apaches. It was a big enough deal for the Senate that it made the national nightly news. PA kept their Apache wing (despite the fact that Black Hawks would be more useful in state emergencies) and Texas said "The Army would have to take Texas' Apaches at gunpoint."
If SHTF was imminent; the states might begin to cause issues for the military command by refusing to part with equipment they viewed as "mission critical" to the states' disaster preparedness (the beginning of the CIVGOV/MILGOV split?). Personally, I cannot imagine any situation where using an Apache could be justified; but then I though St Louis PD having an MWRAP was "excessive."

[Olefin]

There are a lot of military vehicle and artillery collectors in this country as well who have various vehicles and artillery pieces from many eras - many of them with live barrels.

The county I grew up in had a gentleman who owned a working Sherman tank - with a live barrel. He used to take it out once a year for our Memorial Day parade. For the 50 year anniversary of D-Day he went all out and got permission from the town to show exactly what that gun could do using a car he towed out of the local junk yard.

As he said "whats the use of having a live barrel if you dont have anything for it to shoot?"

I highly doubt he was unique as to having a mix of both a live barrel and rounds to use in it.

[rcaf_777]

"Say, Bill, you know that howitzer thing sitting in front of the VFW?"

"That old 105? Yeah. It's been sitting there since the mid-60s. What about it?"

"Could you an John from the Dept of Public Works go take a look at it and see what it would take to get it in working order? To re-militarize it? You were an artilleryman, and John keeps all the town equipment working. Oh, and we found this manual for it in the Framingham armory's record storage room..."


Bill: Every moving part including the wheels has been welded closed, the breach has been filled in as has the barrel, Get me, a new breach, wheels, Barrel and the sighting mech and I can try to get it working, BTW I was a feild artilleryman not a heavy weapons maintainer so I have no idea how to fix this weapon.

I did talk to John and he has enough parts on hand to build one of these
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Revolving_Cannon

You can also take a few police officers and talk to the United States Forest Service I know they have a 105mm for Avalanche Control. Get me a working 105mm and I can train a crew.

I wonder where we can get ammo for it?