OT - No child deserves to die because of a coward.

[Cdnwolf]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/us/connecticut-school-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Newtown, Connecticut (CNN) -- Dressed in black fatigues and a military vest, a heavily armed man walked into a Connecticut elementary school Friday and opened fire, shattering the quiet of this southern New England town and leaving the nation reeling at the number of young lives lost.

Within minutes, 26 people were dead at Sandy Hook Elementary School -- 20 of them children. Among the six adults killed were Dawn Hochsprung, the school's beloved principal, and school psychologist Mary Sherlach.

[Rockwolf66]

It's horrible to comprihend. Alas in the media feeding frenzy the victems of the S*** are being forgotten. Plus even before the facts are known certant people are demanding solutions that would not work to prevent such events from happening.


I wish I had the money to send every child there a teddy bear.


I also wish the media would never publicise the names of the s*** and simply say that the s*** is to be burried in a random outhouse and forgotten. Take and sense of perverse fame out of the equasion.

[natehale1971]

this is an editoral essay for a blog that i've been writing today in response to this monsters actions... anyone who wishes to add something to this, please do. there is so much that i feel i am missing and not covering. and some fresh eyes will help.

Twenty-eight lives were lost today… starting with the murder’s own mother. Whose legally registered and owned weapons were used to carry out this atrocity… this brutal and barbaric assault on a group of innocent children, and this monsters actions not only destroyed the lives of the children whom were killed by the bullets, but also the innocence of their childhood by creating memories of terror that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

To all those whom want to say that we need to ban guns in the aftermath of this tragedy in Connecticut... ask the following questions before you start screaming for even more laws that restrict the gun rights of innocent, honest & responsible citizens.

Would you punish all males for those few monsters whom have committed the barbaric and insidious act of rape? Would you punish everyone who drives an automobile because a few misuse their vehicles when they kill someone because they were drinking and driving? So why would you punish those who do not abuse their rights as a free an independent citizen, and take the rights away of those whom abide by the laws and support their community by being responsible citizens.

Why is it that people seem to want to blame the tools for the actions of those whom use them... it's the same thing as blaming a pencil for misspelled words, or a spoon for someone being impossibly overweight, because it is OUR own actions that are either GOOD or EVIL… and not the tools that have been used to commit those actions.

The fact of the matter is that to punish everyone for the acts of the few is very UN-American and is just not how good and responsible laws are meant to created and implemented.

The only person to blame for this horror that happened at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut is Adam Lanza, you know… the person whom actually carried out this barbaric action, and not the weapons or tools that he had used to commit it. To blame them for his actions diminishes the evil that he has committed and turns him into the victim and not the victimizer that he actually is.

The school was a “Gun Free Zone”… so just how did the gunman get in there to do this? Did he not see the sign saying that Guns are not allowed on the premises? These kinds of things happen because we strip responsible citizens of their rights, and thus only the unrighteous who by nature will not abide by laws will have what the honest citizens no longer possess. And they will use this advantage to become instruments of destruction and pain givers. They are the ones who should be punished for abusing their rights, for doing actions that are so horrendous.

It’s time to stop punishing the innocent, and stripping them of their rights as a responsible free citizen because of the few whom wish to do evil.

I've been crying since learning of this horrendous act of senseless brutality and monstrosity that... i can't believe anyone would target children. it's just so out of the scope. I just can't believe anything like this happens. It's something that I just can't understand. It’s completely beyond my understanding… and I can’t say anything else… it’s heartbreaking. And I just want to hold my sons, but can’t…

The fact that acts like this are not so easy to explain or even understand... but is very easy to see them as nothing more than an act of pure Unadulterated Evil. And that we must always see such acts as this as an EVIL action... and that is what happens when someone no longer has love in their hearts. For that is how evil grows, with the demising of love and compassion... that combines with the growth of apathy and basic humanity that allows this kind of evil action to even be conceived in the minds of men and women.

Have we as a people have lost respect for life of each individual? I think that is a possibility, especially with the fact that to many today see abortion as a pro-active means of birth control… that the life growing inside of them is so cheap and disposable, that they just can’t be bothered to take responsibility for their own actions. Is it any wonder why so many people today are willing to resort to violence to solve their problems? Just this past week, we have seen two children killing a woman because she told them to get a job when they asked her for a cigarette.

This is not just something that has happened here in the United States, today… just hours apart, a man with a knife killed 22 at an elementary school in the People’s Republic of China. And that barbaric act in Beijing was just the latest in a series of attacks that have been made on schools and children in China… and they were not committed not with firearms, but knives and axes. This alone would be evidence that we must not blame inanimate objects that are nothing more than tools… that the evil lies in the hearts of men and not lifeless objects.

We as a society must always place value upon each and every human life no matter how great or small, by giving it the respect that it deserves. And when everyone respects the value of life, no sane person would ever again consider ending the life of another human being so needlessly and callously.

But we also must see the way that many whom wish to exploit these kinds of atrocities for their own political gain for what they are… horrible opportunists whom are no better than the monsters whom have commit these barbaric actions. In the immediate aftermath of the shooting in Newtown, MSNBC anchor Andrea Mitchell was exceptionally quick to bring up gun control, and lamenting that there just doesn’t seem to be enough gun control laws. All this before there were any facts of the shooting known (such as what type of gun was used, the mental state of the shooter or who the shooter actually was)… instead of facts, Mitchell just rattled off the gun control issues talking points that has been championed by the Progressives for oh so long.

These Ghouls deserve the same kind of loathing we hold for those whom do these kinds of acts.

[kato13]

This is something that can be discussed but politics should be left out.

With effort I can, at some level, understand the motivations and actions of brutal dictators, serial killers, the columbine killers, the unibomber etc., but this one totally eludes me. Willfully targeting those who are the most innocent and in no way could even be a speed bump in his plans makes no sense. The closest that i have come is that it was some twisted revenge against his mother, but she was already dead at that point. All I can come up with is he was EVIL beyond what I can comprehend.

[Raellus]

Can we just pause for a while and grieve? It really bothers me that folks on either side of the gun debate jump right in on a horrendous tragedy like this and start dropping their pro OR anti-gun talking points. Let it be.

[natehale1971]

Can we just pause for a while and grieve? It really bothers me that folks on either side of the gun debate jump right in on a horrendous tragedy like this and start dropping their pro OR anti-gun talking points. Let it be.

I've been watching the news non-stop all day. trying to get my head around this... it's why i wrote the essay. it's not just something that happened here, but it's been happening repeatedly in the PRC. In fact one happened today where a manaic with a knife sliced up 22 people before he was stoped. earlier there was a man who took an axe...

this is pure evil, and i don't understand why someone would do this.

He started with his mother and then went to the school where she worked and targeted those little babies. thsoe precious little monkeys so full of life and promise.

someone mentioned that he was jealous of the kids getting more of his mothers attention. but even that does not explain WHY he would do something this evil.

i've been crying for hours about this. doing web searches trying to find more infomration so i can try and understand this... it's how i found out about the string of people attacking cihldren in China this year.

i've been taking with people around the country... and finding out about their own fears, and wondering how to explain this to their children.

so i wrote the essay that i will be sending to a blog, it came from a discussion with a friend whose children are 'special needs' and they had been questioning her about what happened. and how she would explain it all to them. and i tol her that it's an evil act, and evil acts happen with you do not have enough love in your heart to push out all the evil that can go in.

she called me about an hour ago, and said that answer was what allowed her kids to go to sleep tonight.

I want to share this, with hope that others can hear it... and they will find strenght and truth. and get started on their way to healing this fear, this terror.

[natehale1971]

This is something that can be discussed but politics should be left out.

With effort I can, at some level, understand the motivations and actions of brutal dictators, serial killers, the columbine killers, the unibomber etc., but this one totally eludes me. Willfully targeting those who are the most innocent and in no way could even be a speed bump in his plans makes no sense. The closest that i have come is that it was some twisted revenge against his mother, but she was already dead at that point. All I can come up with is he was EVIL beyond what I can comprehend.

Evil can only exist in those places Love is not present Kato.

it's something that i've been working on writing about in the journals for my sons... about how our society has becom so detached and apathetic, and we have to start respecting and valuing life once more so that we don't see this anymore. stop being self-centred and only caring about what we can get at the expense of others.

we have to start Loving one another again.

[bobcat]

i hate incidents like this. the scum are on the news for a week, the victims and their families are treated like shit by the media, and worst of all its children being targeted. yes i know some people are just evil its a fact of life no law or policy will change you could disarm everyone there will still be evil you could arm everyone there will still be evil. evil can only be defeated by good and good by its very nature cannot take the steps to prevent evil without becoming it.

[natehale1971]

i hate incidents like this. the scum are on the news for a week, the victims and their families are treated like shit by the media, and worst of all its children being targeted. yes i know some people are just evil its a fact of life no law or policy will change you could disarm everyone there will still be evil you could arm everyone there will still be evil. evil can only be defeated by good and good by its very nature cannot take the steps to prevent evil without becoming it.

I have always felt that the person who commits these crimes be refereed to by a 'codename' instead of their birthname in a way that is similar to the British Judicial system refering to Jane or John Doe in soe cases... in a way of robbing these monsters from getting remembered...

it's been something i've been trying to get my head around all day.

heck, i was so happy some replacements of many RPG games that i use to have came last night... but i can't even open them right now. :(

[Raellus]

I admire your sentiments Nate, and I respect your need to write about this in your efforts to come to terms with what happened. It hit me hard too. What I don't approve of is the editorializing about gun control. Saying that people who use tragedies like this one to push their own gun-control agendas deserve the same loathing as the killers themselves is a bit much, to say the least. Can you really blame people for wondering if stricter gun-control laws might be in order after an event such as this? I'm not claiming to have all the answers- I can see both sides. I'm a father, and a teacher, and I own firearms. There's a lot of grey that needs to be fully and honestly explored when it comes to gun violence in America. There are compelling arguments from both camps. I'm not sure where I stand, but I don't think that this is the time or the place to debate gun control.

I do like the idea of not publicizing the real names of mass killers. Based on psychological profiles of mass killers, in some cases, a desire for notoriety is one motivating factor. Perhaps if folks knew up front that they wouldn't be immortalized for their heinous, cowardly, selfish acts of violence, they would think twice. Anything to dissuade even one would-be killer from taking the final step would be worthwhile, IMHO.

[natehale1971]

Raellus: I admire your sentiments Nate, and I respect your need to write about this in your efforts to come to terms with what happened. It hit me hard too. What I don't approve of is the editorializing about gun control. Saying that people who use tragedies like this one to push their own gun-control agendas deserve the same loathing as the killers themselves is a bit much, to say the least. Can you really blame people for wondering if stricter gun-control laws might be in order after an event such as this? I'm not claiming to have all the answers- I can see both sides. I'm a father, and a teacher, and I own firearms. There's a lot of grey that needs to be fully and honestly explored when it comes to gun violence in America. There are compelling arguments from both camps. I'm not sure where I stand, but I don't think that this is the time or the place to debate gun control.

The only reason i put that in the essay has been the fact that in less than an hour of this trdegy, MSNBC host Andrea Mitchell started the "We need more gun control laws... stronge ones that will keep the guns out of "gun free zones"...

Raellus: I do like the idea of not publicizing the real names of mass killers. Based on psychological profiles of mass killers, in some cases, a desire for notoriety is one motivating factor. Perhaps if folks knew up front that they wouldn't be immortalized for their heinous, cowardly, selfish acts of violence, they would think twice. Anything to dissuade even one would-be killer from taking the final step would be worthwhile, IMHO.

In the State of Israel, teachers carry firears with them at all times... and the children have been safe and well rounded. the teachers see what they are doing as a very valuable duty that must require them to be the last line of defense for these chidlren while they are in school.

[kato13]

Raellus: I admire your sentiments Nate, and I respect your need to write about this in your efforts to come to terms with what happened. It hit me hard too. What I don't approve of is the editorializing about gun control. Saying that people who use tragedies like this one to push their own gun-control agendas deserve the same loathing as the killers themselves is a bit much, to say the least. Can you really blame people for wondering if stricter gun-control laws might be in order after an event such as this? I'm not claiming to have all the answers- I can see both sides. I'm a father, and a teacher, and I own firearms. There's a lot of grey that needs to be fully and honestly explored when it comes to gun violence in America. There are compelling arguments from both camps. I'm not sure where I stand, but I don't think that this is the time or the place to debate gun control.

The only reason i put that in the essay has been the fact that in less than an hour of this trdegy, MSNBC host Andrea Mitchell started the "We need more gun control laws... stronge ones that will keep the guns out of "gun free zones"...

Raellus: I do like the idea of not publicizing the real names of mass killers. Based on psychological profiles of mass killers, in some cases, a desire for notoriety is one motivating factor. Perhaps if folks knew up front that they wouldn't be immortalized for their heinous, cowardly, selfish acts of violence, they would think twice. Anything to dissuade even one would-be killer from taking the final step would be worthwhile, IMHO.

In the State of Israel, teachers carry firears with them at all times... and the children have been safe and well rounded. the teachers see what they are doing as a very valuable duty that must require them to be the last line of defense for these chidlren while they are in school.

Nate it does not matter what someone else said. It doesn't matter if other institutions that are supposed to be apolitical are not keeping up to that standard.

I feel your frustration, but we will NOT argue these issues here.

Mods if this continues to go political, lock this thread or delete posts with my blessing.

[Rockwolf66]

I have always felt that the person who commits these crimes be refereed to by a 'codename' instead of their birthname in a way that is similar to the British Judicial system refering to Jane or John Doe in soe cases... in a way of robbing these monsters from getting remembered...

it's been something i've been trying to get my head around all day.

heck, i was so happy some replacements of many RPG games that i use to have came last night... but i can't even open them right now. :(

I was going to spend the day finishing writing a story I am working on then type it up tomorrow. Alas I check my E-mail and social feeds as soon as i get up. I couldn't write today and it seems that Monday might be the earliest i can get pencil to paper. I agree with Natehale that we need to stop Glamorizing these F****rs and take their Infamy away from them. Then we should let it be known that Shooter Dips**t was dumped in some random outhouse to rot forgotten.

The deaths of Children is one of the hardest emotional things that I have ever had to deal with. Even though I don't know any of the children involved it hurts and it brings up things that are painful memories. The loss of belovied pets arn't even as bad as the loss of my Nephew who died way to soon.

Unfortunantly there are people who are useing this incident for their own purposes and it is upsetting me even more. Some of those people are Media vultures and others are people who should no better than to use the deaths of Children to further their own goals.

I should stop ranting but it's not the time to go out into the woods and scream, yell, throw or kick things. To do something to make this feeling of being totally helpless go away.

[Snake Eyes]

I have a friend with two kids in that school, who are happily safe at home tonight. He was in the gym there last night coaching basketball. This hits hard. There is a lot left unknown about all of what went down there this morning. I have a lot of opinions on the topics of gun rights, responsible journalism and the state of mental health care in this country, but this isn't that venue and today isn't that day. Hug your kids tonight.

[DigTw0Grav3s]

Just a quick thought; the media is now reporting that the suspect had some form of autism. Should the discussion (at large, not here) really be on gun control, or a massive gap in a psychological safety net in the United States? We're so quick to politicize without considering causality.

Such a disastrous waste. The actual families affected are sadly nothing compared to the children who aren't going to feel safe in a classroom going forward.

[Cdnwolf]

Just for comparison... no one was killed in the china incident...

AND PLEASE LEAVE POLITICS OUT THIS THREAD OR I WILL REMOVE IT


BEIJING A man wielding a knife attacked students Friday at a school in central China, leaving 22 children and one adult injured, according to state-run media reports.


The attack occurred at the gate of an elementary school in the village of Chengping, in Henan Province. Police arrested the attacker, who they identified as local resident Min Yingjun, 36.



Children as young as six were among those hospitalized after the attack, suffering injuries including slashes to the ears and head.

An official at Guangshan Traditional Chinese Medicine Hospital, the local facility, told CBS News at least two students had been transferred to the larger city of Wuhan, not far from Chengping, for treatment. The editor of the local newspaper which first reported the story said none of the children had injuries severe enough to threaten their lives.

[headquarters]

My condolances . for the tragedy that has befallen is a particularily harsh one as it is Aimed at innocent children.

What Raellus said. The pro anti gun debate has no Place at a time like this. There will be time for that eventually.

God I hate people who commits atrocities like these mass shootings.

[Legbreaker]

From what I understand of the situation, this is a psychiatric rather than gun control issue. A firearm is simply a tool, which can be used for either good or ill. In this case it appears to have gone well beyond ill and right past evil too.

[Targan]

Just so that all the non-US posters here are clear, what does "don't make it political" mean? I'm guessing (from what I know of the social and political landscape of the US) that in this context "political" means any discussion touching on gun control. If that's the case then this thread should be locked or even deleted straight away. How can you have any discussion about a massacre involving firearms without that elephant in the room?

I feel very, very sorry for the victims' families and for all Americans every time I see another one of these slaughters. It also seems to me to be an enormous tragedy that the power of certain lobbies in the US means that any meaningful discussion on how best to prevent such tragedies gets completely hamstrung right at the start. If the gun control issue is a huge no-no, what does that leave you with? Collective soul-searching about the possible underlying social or cultural triggers for shooting massacres? Or is that a bit too political as well? And if so, what room does that leave for any discussion at all, other than expressions of condolances?

[kato13]

There are things this thread can be used for, like remembering those who acted like the best humanity has to offer when chaos and tragedy were all around them.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/newtown-teacher-vicki-soto-remembered-article-1.1221004

[natehale1971]

From all that i've been reading and seeing... this guy killed his mother in her sleep, and then took her guns before he went on his shooting spree. it's so messed up. he went to the school his mother worked, forced his way in... and all i can say is that there were heroes in that school. The adults put themselves between that monster and those innocent babies. And they died doing it. Something any of us would have done, because it was the right thing to do. they loved those children so much. and love is why they did what they did.

i've also been reading about whats been happening in China. And it's been a series of attacks being made against kids, one of the assaults was a man with an axe going after kids.

this isn't an issue of what tools are used, but the underlying cause... is it just pure evil? I don't know.. all i know is that evil is present where love no longer exists. But those whom died protecting those children had so much love they used their own bodies as shields, they got the kids to safety.

And that is something we need to focus on, and not on the monster that did it. We shouldn't be hearing his name every few seconds on the news. we should be hearing the names of the brave souls who sacrifced themselves to save those babies lives.

But what is really bothering me is that this is happening in other places, in other countries with vastly different cultral norms or ideals. And it's just so strange that it's happening in such a way that it's happening in vasty different areas.

And it leaves us all asking ourselves... how the hell did this happen?

[LBraden]

I know I can be blunt in cases, and right now, I am not of the best mental situation for other reasons than this but:

I have heard of several attacks in China, of course with the media over there being so controlled I doubt we will ever fully know what happened.

As for this latest shooting in America, I am reminded of a quote that I can't totally attribute to said person, but it was reportedly someone asking the singer Marilyn Manson "If the two people who did Columbine were here today, what would you say to them" and he replied "nothing, I would sit and listen to them as no one else did", and honestly, it's a 2 part problem, and I have seen a reply on a reddit thread where someone said "The other main thing that caused this is the media, they push this to being "headline news" and the people who think of getting attention see this as the only way of doing it, because honestly, no one actually has listened to them when they asked for help".

I do not have facts, but I do recall that a few of these have been done by males who are under the age of 25, and in society today, males are suppose to be "strong" and "not show weakness" this is one of the attributes to causes of problems with people who are suffering mental illness such as depression and suicidal thoughts.

Honestly, I am sat here going though another serious bought of depression, and have, honestly thought of suicide, I know what a lot of these "monsters" are going though, I have been though the same earlier stages, but honestly, I found another way to get people to listen to my problems, and yes, I don't speak much here, but the teamspeak server I am on with friends know that I will have a bout where I just end up waffling on about stuff, even if they mute me, just having the ability to speak about it, helps a LOT, and that's what society needs, is allowing males with problems to speak to people and not get told to "suck it up" as we often do, even from those who should help us.

Now, sorry if I have pissed anyone off, but seriously, that is what was needed to be said in my opinion, and honestly, if you don't like it, well, there is that wonderful button on your PC and there is something called "outside".

[Targan]

I can relate to what you're going through, LBraden. I've been a manic-depressive all my adult life. You're absolutely right, having someone to talk to helps enormously for some people with mental illness. Others it does not. I would suggest that very few western countries have close to the levels of affordable mental health services they need.

[natehale1971]

I've dealt with depression, and my sister is going through it right now due to the injuries to her hip that has a faulty plate that has growned down the top of her femur. the mental health clinic she goes to is really good, and the price is very affordable. there are options out there, but it's as if it is only for those who know where to look. the asistance had really helped my sister... we just need to find a doctor willing to help with the faulty plate in her hip, since 90% of her problems are related to that pain. and the doctors are at a loss for what to do to help her. because our family is known for our metabolism being so out there that common meds just don't work, or in the worse cases does the exact oposite that they are suppose to be doing. Don't even get me started on the list of meds we're allergic too that most are able to rely upon, especially when it comes to over the counter pain meds that can be deadly to us.
and you're right about the media hype. it's getting to a point where it's turning my stomach that they are running with this so much that it's... it's really screwed up.

[natehale1971]

I just read this about the monster in question... and it's strange, and i'm looking into the medical condition they are saying this guy had. if it's true, the only thing that could have stopped this... would have been for him to have been committed to an institution that would have monitored and cared for him 24/7.



(TheBlaze/AP) — At Newtown High School, Adam Lanza had trouble relating to fellow students and teachers, but that was only part of his problem. He seemed not to feel physical or emotional pain in the same way as classmates.

Richard Novia, the school district’s head of security until 2008, who also served as adviser for the school technology club, said Lanza clearly “had some disabilities.”

“If that boy would’ve burned himself, he would not have known it or felt it physically,” Novia told The Associated Press in a phone interview. “It was my job to pay close attention to that.”

Novia was responsible for monitoring students as they used soldering tools and other potentially dangerous electrical equipment.

He recalled meeting with school guidance counselors, administrators and with the boy’s mother, Nancy Lanza, to understand his problems and find ways to ensure his safety. But there were others crises only his mother could solve.

“He would have an episode, and she’d have to return or come to the high school and deal with it,” Novia said, describing how the young man would sometimes withdraw completely “from whatever he was supposed to be doing,” whether it was sitting in class or reading a book.

Adam Lanza “could take flight, which I think was the big issue, and it wasn’t a rebellious or defiant thing,” Novia said. “It was withdrawal.”

Authorities on Saturday continued a wide-ranging investigation into the second-deadliest school shooting in U.S. history, trying to understand what led the young man to kill his mother in their home and then slaughter 26 children and adults at a Connecticut elementary school before taking his own life.

Back in their teenage years, Adam and his older brother, Ryan, were both members of the tech club, which offered students a chance to work on computers, videotape school events and produce public-access broadcasts.

It was popular among socially awkward students. But Adam, while clearly smart, had problems that went beyond a normal adolescent lack of social skills, Novia said.

“You had yourself a very scared young boy, who was very nervous around people he could trust or he refused to speak with,” Novia said.

The club provided a setting for students to build lasting friendships. But while other members were acquainted with Adam, none was close to him.

“Have you found his best friend? Have you found a friend?” Novia asked. “You’re not going to. He was a loner.”

Adam was not physically bullied, although he may have been teased, Novia said.

The club gave the boy a place where he could be more at ease and indulge his interest in computers. His anxieties appeared to ease somewhat, but they never disappeared. When people approached him in the hallways, he would press himself against the wall or walk in a different direction, clutching tight to his black case.

“The behavior would be more like an 8-year-old who refuses to give up his teddy bear,” Novia said. “What you knew with Adam is it was a possession. It was not a possession to be put at risk.”

Even so, Novia said, his primary concern was that Adam might become a target for abuse by his fellow students, not that he might become a threat.

“Somewhere along in the last four years, there were significant changes that led to what has happened,” Novia said. “I could never have foreseen him doing that.”

Jim McDade, who lives a few houses from where Nancy Lanza was slain, said his family became acquainted with the two brothers and their mother because their children were about the same ages and rode the school bus together.

“There was certainly no indication of anything unusual that lets you think that a kid’s going to do something like that,” said McDade, who works in finance in New York. “There was nothing that would indicate anything going on behind the scenes that would lead to this horrible mess.”

He recalled Adam Lanza as “a very bright kid.”

The Associated Press has more, including interviews with Lanza’s neighbors:

Olivia DeVivo, a student at the University of Connecticut, was in Adam Lanza’s 10th grade English class.

“He was very different and very shy and didn’t make an effort to interact with anybody,” she said.

DeVivo said Lanza always carried a briefcase and wore his shirts buttoned up to the top button. She said he seemed bright but never really participated in class.

“Now looking back, it’s kind of like `OK, he had all these signs,’ but you can’t say every shy person would do something like this.”

—

Associated Press writers Michael Melia and Jim Fitzgerald in Newtown, Conn., and Denise Lavoie in Stamford, Conn., contributed to this report.

[LBraden]

There are enough of those "buzzwords" that people like to use than the actual problem, that person has Autism, I would say "serious Aspergers Syndrome/ Light Autism", I have mild Aspergers myself.

Honestly ... that kid sounds like me before I got the help I needed, all he needed was that right person to be there for mental health before this happened, it's a sad day all around that this happens, and the real cause is pushed to the side because of those "gun control" people that say it's that fault, or it's game developers fault. rather than actually finding the REAL cause.

[Cdnwolf]

Interesting fact is nothing is mentioned of the father....

[mikeo80]

I know I have no answers.

Short of MASSIVE security at EVERY public event, there will always be someone who will find a way to use a weapon or a tool or a something to alieviate whatever demon that lives within.

I have been diagnosed with everything from depression to Asburgers to God knows what. I still function. I still have a sense of right and wrong. I own guns legally. I like to see myself as a moral person. DO I have demons? Sure. DO I manage to keep them locked in some closet in my mind? SO far so good. Have I been tempted? Yep. Do I act on those temptations? So far so good.

So to sum up. No answers except for myself. I know what and where my boundries are. I know that IF I am looking over the boundry, don't go near where the guns are kept. Do I succeed? SO far so good.

My $0.02

Mike

[dragoon500ly]

Words cannot begin to express my horror and rage at this senseless slaughter of innocents. There can never be an adequate explanation of why someone would believe that this would make things in their world right. Nothing can ever justify the murder of children.

That this individual had severe mental issues cannot be denied, the question is why these issues were not addressed in time to prevent this will be endlessly debated. But the killer has achieved one goal, he will now be remembered.

There are blogs out on the net right now, talking about how "cool" this killer is for "doing it to the man" and "he should have killed more of the little piggies."

Our society has reached a new low. And I fear for that society.

[pmulcahy11b]

Words cannot begin to express my horror and rage at this senseless slaughter of innocents. There can never be an adequate explanation of why someone would believe that this would make things in their world right. Nothing can ever justify the murder of children.

That this individual had severe mental issues cannot be denied, the question is why these issues were not addressed in time to prevent this will be endlessly debated. But the killer has achieved one goal, he will now be remembered.

There are blogs out on the net right now, talking about how "cool" this killer is for "doing it to the man" and "he should have killed more of the little piggies."

Our society has reached a new low. And I fear for that society.

Though I understand that the mentally ill should by and large not be allowed to own firearms, I hope they don't use this incident as a sort of open season against the mentally ill. We are a grossly-misunderstood minority in this country and virtually none of us are dangerous in everyday life.

And I don't think this should be used to pass more anti-firearms legislation. Both anti-gun and gun nuts are going to react in a knee-jerk fashion. We don't really need new legislation -- we need good, tight enforcement of what we have. Enforcement of gun legislation sucks right now in this country. And if you're going to have a firearm, you have to expect that you have a responsibility to handle, care, and store that firearm properly, perhaps more than your responsibility to keep your driving skills and knowledge of driving laws up to par.

People who even point a firearm at a civilian is wrong. No two ways about it. Anyone who is more than a few days into Basic knows that, and classes that teach such gun basics should be a part of every gun license.

You shoot at kids you're not only a fucking coward, you deserve (to turn a phrase) a special place in hell.

[Chris]

I keep writing, erasing, writing, erasing, and writing this post. Been trying to put my thoughts together for the last three days, but the thoughts keep running in circles with no answer.

Nate, I wish I had some good, easy answers for all of us. I don't. I wish you peace.

Everyone here, I wish you peace. Turn off the idiot box. Walk in the crisp night air. Find some silence; your church, park, friends and family. Be well.

[headquarters]

I keep writing, erasing, writing, erasing, and writing this post. Been trying to put my thoughts together for the last three days, but the thoughts keep running in circles with no answer.

Nate, I wish I had some good, easy answers for all of us. I don't. I wish you peace.

Everyone here, I wish you peace. Turn off the idiot box. Walk in the crisp night air. Find some silence; your church, park, friends and family. Be well.

good words.

[Jason Weiser]

Words cannot begin to express my horror and rage at this senseless slaughter of innocents. There can never be an adequate explanation of why someone would believe that this would make things in their world right. Nothing can ever justify the murder of children.

That this individual had severe mental issues cannot be denied, the question is why these issues were not addressed in time to prevent this will be endlessly debated. But the killer has achieved one goal, he will now be remembered.

There are blogs out on the net right now, talking about how "cool" this killer is for "doing it to the man" and "he should have killed more of the little piggies."

Our society has reached a new low. And I fear for that society.

Please god,
Tell me this isn't true. Having dealt with someone who had mental issues. Without turning this into a political discussion on mental health issues in this country? I can say, the mental health delivery system in this nation stinks...hard.

On the other hand? I work for a Second Amendment advocacy group. I believe strongly in the rights for Americans to possess firearms. Do I think the gun control side believe what they believe honestly? Yes. I also disagree with them wholeheartedly. Trouble is? A lot of wrong headed folks on both sides are going to say and do some very dumb things in the coming days.

Meanwhile? 20 kids are dead. And I know a lot of us wish we'd been there to do something, anything to stop this asshole. I know I do, and I am the least trained person here.

[Legbreaker]

From where I sit halfway around the planet, the whole issue seems to be devolving into a gun control fight with virtually no attention on mental health.
Am I surprised? Hell no!
Why? Because it's a LOT cheaper to play around with existing firearms laws, get the police/ATF/etc to come down hard on a few people than it is to make effective changes to mental (in fact all) health systems and make them WORK.
ALL sides of politics are equally unlikely in my view to do what NEEDS to be done because actually dealing with a broken system requires money and political backbone.

So we can all expect more instances similar to this one in the future - at least until a few centuries have passed and there's a half decent mental health system...

And this goes not just for the US, but here in Australia as well.

[Rockwolf66]

From where I sit halfway around the planet, the whole issue seems to be devolving into a gun control fight with virtually no attention on mental health.
Am I surprised? Hell no!
Why? Because it's a LOT cheaper to play around with existing firearms laws, get the police/ATF/etc to come down hard on a few people than it is to make effective changes to mental (in fact all) health systems and make them WORK.
ALL sides of politics are equally unlikely in my view to do what NEEDS to be done because actually dealing with a broken system requires money and political backbone.

So we can all expect more instances similar to this one in the future - at least until a few centuries have passed and there's a half decent mental health system...

And this goes not just for the US, but here in Australia as well.

I must share this Australian wisdome to Facebook due to it's level of Awesomeness.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm sort of changing my mind about mental illness getting more attention. Maybe the health care industry (including Medicare, Tricare, and the VA) will have to pay attention to the ugly truth that 72% of of mental health patients receive no care or are undercared for (I'm in that boat).

[natehale1971]

What gets me, is that i've been reading the articles and watching interviews with the people that were in this kids life... the mother was saying that she felt she was loosing him. His mental AND phyiscal state should be looked at. He couldln't feel pain, nor could he relate to others. So much so that the caregiver (babysitter just doesn't seem to work since he asn't a baby) had been warned by the mother to NEVER turn his back on him.

so it's not JUST one thing that went wrong here... and no one single law would have stopped this from happening.

it's something we as a people need to do... get involved with our communities. stop ignoring each other, start KNOWING each other. to care about someone other than just ourselves. to get past this self-centred selfish nature that has been promoted over the past couple decades. When i was a kid, i remember what it was like to have neighbors who knew me and my family... that if i did something wrong, my parents would know about it by the time i got home.

[Raellus]

Unfortunately, it's about a for-profit healthcare industry. Without getting too political, there's simply no push for additional federal funding of mental health programs and most private insurance companies can't be bothered to cover folks who can't afford to pay hefty premiums/co-pays. This is why a lot of people with serious mental illnesses end up on the streets, and others with maybe less extreme conditions slip through the cracks in other ways.

Until we as a society are willing to accept that basic health care is a human right, and are willing to support this belief with our pocketbooks (i.e. higher taxes), this neglect/underserving of the mentally ill is going to continue to be a factor in some of these mass murders.

[natehale1971]

I hate to say this, but you're wrong.

From what i've read already, this "kid" was getting help... he had parents who were involved in his life. the teachers and advisors said that they watched him constantly to ensure that he wouldn't get picked on. to watch and make sure he didn't hurt himself.

I've had to make do on $110 a month, and during that time i was able to get first rate medical care... hell, they were able to put MY LEGS BACK ON despite the fact they KNEW for a fact I didn't have insurence and couldn't afford the proceedures. But they did it anyway.

It's not about 'for-profit healthcare' that his happened. This happened because of ONE person who despite the care being provided decided to do this horrific act.

We just can't stop what someone is thinking or planing in their own mind. The way the law enforcement operates in a free society is to respond only after the fact... If we were to do anything else, that would be the foundations of a complete police state that would have "Thought Crimes" that would be reason enough to detain individuals. And that would see the death of not only liberty, but the human spirit.

A retired FBI profiler has been watching this, and did a good commentary on this case... the link is below. please take the time to read it. reading this has given alot of what i've read and watched on this horrific case

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/gunman-behavior-shootings-indicates-planning-control-former-fbi-180620270.html

[Targan]

I don't want to put words in your mouth Nate, or misrepresent your view on this. So just to clarify, are you saying that in your opinion, there is adequate affordable health care and mental health care in your country, and other laws covering a subject that shall not be named in this discussion are also adequate? And that Adam Lanza was essentially sane? That in effect he was of sound mind and that his actions were the result of considered and rational thought?

[natehale1971]

I don't want to put words in your mouth Nate, or misrepresent your view on this. So just to clarify, are you saying that in your opinion, there is adequate affordable health care and mental health care in your country, and other laws covering a subject that shall not be named in this discussion are also adequate? And that Adam Lanza was essentially sane? That in effect he was of sound mind and that his actions were the result of considered and rational thought?

No. that's not what I am saying. if you read what i wrote i did not say he was sane, but that only in hindsight can we see that he wasn't sane or all there for that matter.

That during the last week of his life before he went on his rampage, that his mother was saying that she felt she was loosing him... that he was getting further and further way from her. and from what they are uncovering, he had been PLANING this for a long time. how long, i don't know yet.. i'm stll reading all the reports that i can get my hands on.

What I am saying is that there are many ways for getting help, and I know because in the past I've received help (just look at the pictures i posted showing me during my coma, while relearing to walk ect) and mental health assistant when i was dealing with battered spouse issues thanks to what my ex-gf had done for nearly four years...

and I am currently watching my sister get help for the issues she has been going through RIGHT NOW. The local mental health clinic is doing a good job with working with her... but it's just part of what she needs help with. we're trying to find a doctor who will be secure enough to deal with the malpratice and faulty equipment that was used to repair the damage done to her hip.

It's not about higher taxes, it's about the management of resources on a local, state and national level since there is just so much waste of those resources, that it's not even funny. There are millions and billions of dollars that are being spent on programs that just does not make any kind of sense that could be used to create a means of providing care for those who slip through the cracks.

Hell, i've posted my idea for that kind of health care with the expansion of the Public Health Service... and a paramilitary medical service that would provide the education to those wishing to go into medical care but can't afford the tution fees for Nursing Schools, Medical Schools and Paramedical courses. but that's besides the point right now..

We are talking about what happened with Adam Lanza and what could have been done to stop this horror from happening.

What Adam Lanza has done is without any kind of rational description to capture just how horrible and demonic it was... there isn't an easy answer to explain it away. Nor prevent things like this from happening except to arm the teachers like they do in Israel, or provide for armed security to be posted in every school in the United States (me, i vote for both those options).

But it's coming to light that Lanza's family was doing everything they could to provide him with the kind of care that he needed, that the schools in the area also were working at helping him. and that they went out of their way to keep him from bein bullied as well as keeping him from harming himself thanks to his inability to feel pain. That they were working at getting through to him both mentally and phyiscally. that he was due to his condition seperate not just because of autism, but phsycailly as well.

That to many it appeared that he was 'getting around' his autism and could have led a good and productive life.

Those that knew him stated he was highly intellgent and that he was suppose to be looking into colleges that would work with him to get higher education. That his mother was actually planing on moving to be close to what ever college that accepted him so that she could give him the support he needed.

It was during the last week before this happened that she mentioned that she felt that she was loosing him... that the connection that they had was becoming distant.

He did something horrible... he started out killing his motehr (shot her in the head four times while she slept). he then destroyed his computers and other actions before he pushed his way into the school and started his rampage.

Do whe as a society need to demystify mental-health problems... God yes. it's just as we need to get the notion that big boys don't cry and destroy it.

but would that have helped stop this from happening? I don't think so. From what i've been reading today... there was only one thing that would have kept this from happening. but to do that... would be inhumane and violate civil liberties in a horrendous way...

I brought up 'Thought Crimes' for a reason... should someone be punished for imaging beating the hell out of a bully or horrible boss at work? should they be punished by the government for wishing ill on others?

that is a slippery slope that we really don't want to go down.

[pmulcahy11b]

And that Adam Lanza was essentially sane? That in effect he was of sound mind and that his actions were the result of considered and rational thought?

Here's the thing: in the US, there is a legal distinction between sanity and mental illness. It's how a clearly sick person can be considered sane and convicted. Usually it comes down to whether or not a person is able to judge lawful behavior from unlawful behavior (ie, "knows right from wrong") and is able to assist and contribute to his own defense. In essence, sanity and insanity are legal terms. Being mentally ill is a medical diagnosis. Most of the time, the legal term of sanity trumps the medical diagnosis. Getting off for reasons of mental defect or disease is nowhere as easy as it is believed in this country, since sanity and insanity are simple legal distinctions that can easily overrule complex medical diagnoses.

[kota1342000]

Hope everyone in and around Newtown is holding on as best you can. This sucks, it always will, and I'm skeptical about the healing power of time. No matter what ideas and questions I pose below, this is a worthless act perpetrated by two worthless people, the shooter and the mother.
But at this point I think 3 or 4 posts here shed a bit of light on one of the pieces we've completely ignored for too damn long at least in the US.

Moderators, I'm hoping this wont stray too close to the political prohibition here. If so, that isn't my intent.

...I think hearing from Paul and LBraden is the best thing for this thread. Fixing this problem is going to take action on several different angles, including the gun control side, but mental health has been consistently ignored in the past and that is unacceptable.
So here's a set of quick questions...I TRULY hope nothing here offends, but I consider myself ignorant on what is needed and what will work. When I had contact with the seriously mentally ill, it was a bit on the "too late" side since we were bringing him or her in on the rescue.

First, where do we start? Of course I have my own ideas like actually listening to Patients, and making sure there's some kind of funding to get something done. But I don't know if I'm on the right track.

Second, I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of drugs that big pharmaceutical companies are pushing are developed with an eye towards profit margins as opposed to helping the patient. A friend taking Serzone (I think) described a mindset where it was nearly impossible to determine if she was happy for real, or being held in a "happy state" by "chemical puppet strings". Would it be better to actually focus on other treatment options instead, and what can and should we make available? Not to mention that many of these meds are so expensive they are completely out of reach for many Americans.

And lastly, what pieces are we missing in the medical infrastructure? Medical conditions and traumatic injuries have a well established pipeline for caring for patients from start to finish, but Ive seen many people on mental health holds just set aside in a separate room and left alone. I'm thinking that's unacceptable, so what pieces do we need to put in place? Patients aren't going to need cardio monitors and first round crash drugs, but what do we need?

I know that there's lots of talk about a national database of people with dangerous mental illness, but that's not going to go very far unless we back it up with help for everyone who needs it. Going down that road is just trying to separate the mentally ill from everyone else, and would be selfish, ignorant, and worthless in the extreme. In the end, we're in the same boat, and if we can't help everyone instead of trying to throw them overboard, then we deserve to sink.