Subways

[General Pain]

Subways has not been discussed in this forum. As I see it it is a excellent asset.

FOR PLAYERS:

Bombshelter
transportation
mobile hq
etc etc
u could probably hide a small factory in some of the bigger tunnels

FOR GMs:

the subways could be infested with all kinds of dangerous shit -
sewerpeople,scruffies,cannibals,mutants(if allowed), other armed enemies
angry rat swarms etc etc

subways also has quite a different look/feel after a nuke / conventional war has hit a city.The power is gone....

(sadly, in this picture the light fictures worked)
http://www.jonathanstephens.com/newyork-large/New-York-Subways.jpg

http://fdelaitre.club.fr/KWS-Works.jpg

[General Pain]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/23/31391433_d7a82db2ee.jpg

[chico20854]

Subways has not been discussed in this forum. As I see it it is a excellent asset.

FOR PLAYERS:

Bombshelter
transportation
mobile hq
etc etc
u could probably hide a small factory in some of the bigger tunnels

FOR GMs:

the subways could be infested with all kinds of dangerous shit -
sewerpeople,scruffies,cannibals,mutants(if allowed), other armed enemies
angry rat swarms etc etc

In general, I agree except for one thing: flooding. Almost all modern subways require regular, reliable electrical power to keep them dry. The DC metro system (the second largest in the US, although far behind New York) was shut down a few years ago when power failed during a heavy rain storm. Within a few hours several stations were flooded with over a meter of water on the tracks. After months or years of no electricity (and no regular maintenance of the tunnels) I think the subways would be quite deadly, dark and dangerous underground rivers/lakes.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

In general, I agree except for one thing: flooding. Almost all modern subways require regular, reliable electrical power to keep them dry. The DC metro system (the second largest in the US, although far behind New York) was shut down a few years ago when power failed during a heavy rain storm. Within a few hours several stations were flooded with over a meter of water on the tracks. After months or years of no electricity (and no regular maintenance of the tunnels) I think the subways would be quite deadly, dark and dangerous underground rivers/lakes.

I wonder if most subways are like that. I assume Pittsburgh's joke of a subway needs to have pumps running as well, we have three rivers here plus a fourth underground one.

I've also heard that in an emergency, if you can open a manhole cover and go down, that could provide a quick bomb shelter. Trouble is, many cities are switching to locked manhole covers so that might not be an option, in fact, my millionaire (I'm part of the poor relations) cousin is involved in selling them. :(

Chuck M.

[General Pain]

In general, I agree except for one thing: flooding. Almost all modern subways require regular, reliable electrical power to keep them dry. The DC metro system (the second largest in the US, although far behind New York) was shut down a few years ago when power failed during a heavy rain storm. Within a few hours several stations were flooded with over a meter of water on the tracks. After months or years of no electricity (and no regular maintenance of the tunnels) I think the subways would be quite deadly, dark and dangerous underground rivers/lakes.

very inspiring...thax for that one...

but I guess it rains alot more in dc/ny than LA ?

[weswood]

Are there subways in LA? I've never heard of any, and burrying a trian in an area known for earthqukes is questionable to me. But never been there, so I maight be wrong.

[kcdusk]

In twilight chronicles a few years ago now, i had a whole series of encounters planned to entice the PCs underground. I dont think we quite got there though.

But yes, in general, i think tunnels would be great for the reasons you mention. And even if there isnt anything you can see, its often the thought of "whats in the dark" that builds the tension.


There was that show on pay tv, and more recently on commercial tv in australia (where i seen it). It was called "Earth after humans" or something.

In it, they said the NYC subway system has 4 million gallons (!) of water pumped out of it each day.

I guess most subway systems, being underground, are "below the water line".


.

[kato13]

In it, they said the NYC subway system has 4 million gallons (!) of water pumped out of it each day.
.

The math nut in me had to do this, and I figured I would share.

Ok the New York Subway system has 443 miles of Track tunnels and about 300 miles of supporting tunnels. Assuming a diamter of 16 feet for the track tunnels and 7 feet for the supporting tunnels. Gives about 60,959,463 cubic feet. I am going to round up to 65 million including stations. A gallon is .133 cubic feet. So the system would have filled in approximately 122 days.

I would guess you could calculate other cities by comparing annual rainfall, but my guess is that most would be flooded by the time T2k rolls around.

[kcdusk]

I'm not arguing with your math kato. But i got the feeling from the show that the subway would fill with water within 7 days.

I quoted 4 million gallons below, but part of me is now thinking hte number was 13 million. It just sounds like so much water.

Even if after a few days there was a few inches of water, or ankle to knee high, it would make travel underground wet and discomforting. And once its at waist high, with water rats swimming around ... it'd be "shivver".

[kato13]

I'm not arguing with your math kato. But i got the feeling from the show that the subway would fill with water within 7 days.

I quoted 4 million gallons below, but part of me is now thinking hte number was 13 million. It just sounds like so much water.

The volume of the tunnels is also massive. I remember reading that the mass of everything put on Manhattan Island. The steel, concrete, asphalt, people, wood, cars, buses, trucks, and everything else does not equal the weight of the granite removed to make the tunnels. And if the number is 13 million gallons then number becomes 37 days. New York could easily get the average rain of 37 days in only 7 days.

[kato13]

Found this

http://www.nysun.com/new-york/inside-the-mtas-fight-against-subway-flooding/35672/

13 million on a dry day. So you could pretty much guarantee that it would be filled in a under a month (perhaps much under) if there was any appreciable rainfall.

[General Pain]

I'm not arguing with your math kato. But i got the feeling from the show that the subway would fill with water within 7 days.

I quoted 4 million gallons below, but part of me is now thinking hte number was 13 million. It just sounds like so much water.

Even if after a few days there was a few inches of water, or ankle to knee high, it would make travel underground wet and discomforting. And once its at waist high, with water rats swimming around ... it'd be "shivver".

Think about the alternative...above ground (after about 8 nukes over 15 years) LA is populated by

-radioactive dustclouds
-various human mauraders,former militarycanibals,gangs,etc etc
-fire(s)
-oops forgot to say any people is probably armed with automatic rifles or the like...I could go on,...

I got the inspiration to this thread after looking at Los Angeles in Google Earth...

My plan was to get an escape route out of LA downtown...

[kcdusk]

Think about the alternative...above ground (after about 8 nukes over 15 years) LA is populated by

-radioactive dustclouds
-various human mauraders,former militarycanibals,gangs,etc etc
-fire(s)
-oops forgot to say any people is probably armed with automatic rifles or the like...I could go on,...

I got the inspiration to this thread after looking at Los Angeles in Google Earth...

My plan was to get an escape route out of LA downtown...



Well ... yeah ... but at least your dry :-)

[WallShadow]

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/5/5280920/tunnel-vision-bob-diamond-fights-for-the-atlantic-avenue-subway -- Atlantic Avenue abandoned subway tunnel in Brooklyn. 2570-ft long.

http://www.nycgo.com/slideshows/new-york-secrets/11/ Brooklyn Bridge (Manhattan side) Bomb shelter and hidden chambers--restocked by the folks who brought you the Strategic Reserve stockpile(s) of Allegheny Uprising?:cool:

http://www.nycgo.com/slideshows/new-york-secrets/2/ -- "Lost Station" subway stop under NYC City Hall, something one of the Duke's opponents might pay well to learn of.

http://gizmodo.com/how-one-inventor-secretly-built-a-pneumatic-subway-unde-1123695775 Mr. Beach's Pneumatic Subway, on Manhattan Island.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Are there subways in LA? I've never heard of any, and burrying a trian in an area known for earthqukes is questionable to me. But never been there, so I maight be wrong.

I was well aware of LA's massive storm water drains and runoffs, they've featured in many, many movies but I didn't know about any subway systems. But yes, Los Angeles does have subways (something I didn't know until your question kicked my curiosity into gear!). Specifically it has two working lines and one abandoned line.
The working lines are the Red Line (16.4 mi / 26.4 km) opened in 1993 and the Purple Line (6.4 mi / 10.3 km) opened in 2006. The Purple Line runs most of its length on the Red Line although I am unsure if it has a physically separate track and platform system (seems unlikely). Extensions are planned for the subway system but funding appears to be a big problem.
The abandoned line was operating in the mid-1920s and had a short life, it ceased operations in 1955.

General info about the transit system including the subways
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Rail_(Los_Angeles_County)
http://www.la-electric-travel.com/Los-Angeles-Metro-Rail.html
Map of the passenger rail system (subways are red and purple)
http://subway.umka.org/map-los-angeles.html
Article from 2010 about subway expansion
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/11/30/in-los-angeles-a-subway-system-grows/
Article from 2012 about subway expansion
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2012/03/25/l-a-s-westside-subway-is-practically-ready-for-construction-but-its-completion-could-be-25-years-off/
And finally, (the most interesting one!), the abandoned system
http://www.awalkerinla.com/2012/05/11/las-original-subway/
http://www.uncanny.net/~wetzel/subwayarea.htm
http://laist.com/2008/07/12/laistory_the_19.php

[Cdnwolf]

SUBWAYS
I hate closed-in places. I always have, but I hate them more
now. That trip down those endless, cold stone steps into
darkness must have been the longest walk I ever took in my
life. Turk had the torch and he was behind us, the light casting
weird and shifting shadows which rushed across wet stone
walls or vanished into pitch blackness, shifting and changing
with each step down. At the bottom there was water-bitter
cold and black as ink. The air stank, and the darkness pressed
around us like a blanket. I'd heard New York's subways were
bad, but this ...
Then Turk screamed and the torch went out, and right then
all of us about jumped out of our skins. There were shapes out
there in the dark, half seen by the faint light that was filtering
down from the top of the steps, and those shapes had grabbed
Turk. I could hear them.. .making low, wet, throaty gobbling
noises in the dark.
My rifle was bucking in m y hand before the echoes of Turk's
screams stopped. The muzzle flash lit up the targets like a strobe
at some horrible light-show. Dements, three ... five ... ten of them,
standing over Turk's ragdoll form, some of them pitching back
into the dark as rounds chopped into them at close range, but
the others were looking at me, their eyes very strange in the
strobe-flashing of m y rifle.
My magazine emptied and I sent it clattering to the floor. Backing
away, I pulled another from m y belt pouch.. . even in the dark,
I could sense them moving towards me...

Page 36 of Going Home deals with the New York subway system.

[Gelrir]

The old subway tunnels in Los Angeles appeared in a lot of movies in the 1980s and early 1990s. The "V" miniseries, for example, features the Toluca substation and the Belmont tunnel entrance a lot.

http://www.amymckenzie.net/web_galleries/belmont/BelmontTunnel/belmont_historic25.html

--
Michael B.

[WallShadow]

I was well aware of LA's massive storm water drains and runoffs, they've featured in many, many movies but I didn't know about any subway systems.

LA's storm drains? Think of the potential for rumors! D'ya think they'd find any giant mutated ants down there?:rolleyes:

[mikeo80]

I know that Philadelphia has a subway system. IIRC, basically a north/south run on Broad Street and an east/west line on Market Street. Again, IIRC, Market Street line is both underground and above ground.

http://subway.umka.org/map-philadelphia.html

I do not remember any mention of flooding on the North/South line. I used to use it to get to Temple University. While I went to Temple, the subways were a relatively safe and effective way to travel. The two years I went to Temple, I never had any problems.

With T2k both V1 and V2.2, Philly gets nuked pretty hard because of massive oil refineries in South Philly. I could see maybe the north end of the subway down to say City Hall MIGHT still exist....Could be a lead in for scavenging the Temple Library as an example of a scenario..

My $0.02

Mike

[stormlion1]

The Philadelphia Tunnels won't flood, there a good distance from the Delaware River but the Schuylkill is another story up by 30th Street Station where the tunnels and the River are only a few thousand feet from each other. Course there both above ground but let the river overflow its banks and they will begin to flood quick.
Also don't forget that there is one or two abandoned Stops in the Philly Subway System, one quite large and connecting old Steam Passages throughout some leading quite a distance from Central Philly. I used to ride a bike through them. Tight but doable and completely hidden from most Philadelphians and leading into the sub basements of a lot of older buildings or just dead ending where new construction has obliterated those passage. Don't recommend going down there, easy to get lost and the Bums are scrappers about there territory!

http://hiddencityphila.org/2013/01/theres-a-world-going-on-underground/

[StainlessSteelCynic]

LA's storm drains? Think of the potential for rumors! D'ya think they'd find any giant mutated ants down there?:rolleyes:

Funny you should say that...
I have a varied collection of interests including underground & urban exploration and although I also enjoy many of the 1950s-60s "atomic horror" movies, I specifically wanted to see "Them!" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Them!) because part of the movie takes place in those LA storm drains.

[.45cultist]

During my 1st ed. T2K, I'd look at men's adventure fiction for ideas, one about NYC stated there were 6900 miles of tunnels, subway and various utilities added together. But a subway tunnel in various stages of flooding and with brigands and critters would be a good spot for a forgotten CD stockpiles. Dungeon 21! This site has all the gear needed for a salvage job.

[kalos72]

Link please? :)

[.45cultist]

It was a dead tree series that inspired the 1990's militia movements, hence my interest for the game. Classic b rate stuff, but the tunnel part was real, "6900 miles, most big enough for a man to move through." They found a group of disfigured cannibals lived there..... I believe it may have been the "Ashes" series. The feds started showing displeasure at the author's influence and he started taking it personal. Be warned the series is rambling and disjointed. Also classic pulp weapons handling and effects.

[kalos72]

Not sure I follow...is it a book series named Dungeon 21?

[Cdnwolf]

I grab inspiration from Metro 2033...

[kalos72]

Side note: Metro any good?

[Targan]

Side note: Metro any good?

Absolutely. Both of them. Would've preferred them to be a bit more "open world" though.

[.45cultist]

Not sure I follow...is it a book series named Dungeon 21?

No, that was my reference to finding the extensive Civil Defense caches dismantled in the Clinton era, these had WWII small arms so particular attention was paid to destruction. The book series was the Ashes series, "Out of the Ashes was the first. Again these are shlock, not alternate history. But inspiration comes from the most surprising things at times.;)

[.45cultist]

Absolutely. Both of them. Would've preferred them to be a bit more "open world" though.

I second this statement!:D

[WallShadow]

No, that was my reference to finding the extensive Civil Defense caches dismantled in the Clinton era, these had WWII small arms so particular attention was paid to destruction. The book series was the Ashes series, "Out of the Ashes was the first. Again these are shlock, not alternate history. But inspiration comes from the most surprising things at times.;)
Crawling up from the depths of the archives crypt:
This is the first I'd heard of the CD stocks having weapons cached. This changes the character of the situation.
.45Cultist, can you give the sources for some further detail?

[.45cultist]

Crawling up from the depths of the archives crypt:
This is the first I'd heard of the CD stocks having weapons cached. This changes the character of the situation.
.45Cultist, can you give the sources for some further detail?

This was a retired GM in Federal Law Enforcement. And They might have rolled old COG sites in with CD. I know some CD personnel were issued side arms, but long arms? He has cancer via Ranch Hand and is frequently in pain that morphine can't suppress.

[.45cultist]

I was well aware of LA's massive storm water drains and runoffs, they've featured in many, many movies but I didn't know about any subway systems. But yes, Los Angeles does have subways (something I didn't know until your question kicked my curiosity into gear!). Specifically it has two working lines and one abandoned line.
The working lines are the Red Line (16.4 mi / 26.4 km) opened in 1993 and the Purple Line (6.4 mi / 10.3 km) opened in 2006. The Purple Line runs most of its length on the Red Line although I am unsure if it has a physically separate track and platform system (seems unlikely). Extensions are planned for the subway system but funding appears to be a big problem.
The abandoned line was operating in the mid-1920s and had a short life, it ceased operations in 1955.

General info about the transit system including the subways
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Rail_(Los_Angeles_County)
http://www.la-electric-travel.com/Los-Angeles-Metro-Rail.html
Map of the passenger rail system (subways are red and purple)
http://subway.umka.org/map-los-angeles.html
Article from 2010 about subway expansion
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/11/30/in-los-angeles-a-subway-system-grows/
Article from 2012 about subway expansion
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2012/03/25/l-a-s-westside-subway-is-practically-ready-for-construction-but-its-completion-could-be-25-years-off/
And finally, (the most interesting one!), the abandoned system
http://www.awalkerinla.com/2012/05/11/las-original-subway/
http://www.uncanny.net/~wetzel/subwayarea.htm
http://laist.com/2008/07/12/laistory_the_19.php

Beware of "Them"! Have a flamethrower handy.......

[WallShadow]

Beware of "Them"! Have a flamethrower handy.......
Aim for the antennae! Shoot the antennae!:D

[ChalkLine]

Absolutely. Both of them. Would've preferred them to be a bit more "open world" though.

They said Metro Exodus will be more open world

(I'm gearing up to do a subway game)

[ChalkLine]

There's stories about Australian saltwater crocs being transported to the US.
You do not want this.
(But they do like stormwater drains . . .)

[.45cultist]

"Armies of the Night" had a bit on subways used for transport, water and food(rats).

[ChalkLine]

Subways will be the urban survivors first port of call when the bombs go off. They are usually well designed to be a blast shelter. The survivors will have to wait out the fallout somewhere and that flooding issue will definitely have to be addressed . . .

[The Dark]

This was a retired GM in Federal Law Enforcement. And They might have rolled old COG sites in with CD. I know some CD personnel were issued side arms, but long arms? He has cancer via Ranch Hand and is frequently in pain that morphine can't suppress.

At least some COG sites definitely had weaponry. I remember reading about when Greenbrier was revealed, the government ended up removing M-16s and M-60s from the site. I haven't heard of any with WW2 weapons, though.

[unkated]

Yes, I know its an old entry but Stainless is still around.

I was well aware of LA's massive storm water drains and runoffs, they've featured in many, many movies but I didn't know about any subway systems. But yes, Los Angeles does have subways

Ahem! The Italian Job (2003). You don't dodge trains in the storm drain system :-)

Uncle Ted

[unkated]

I know that during WW2, London's subway system was used a bombshelter. (I believe that the system as since added additional layers both above an below the WW2 tunnels.)

London also has a number of old stations no longer in use, but that is of more interest to Dark Conspiracy than T2K.....

I know that Moscow's subway was designed to be used as a bombshelter at need, and was built particularly deep.

New York's Subway was not built with bomb shelter use in mind.

Does anyone know of other subway systems that incorporate civil defense in their design?

Uncle Ted

[The Dark]

I know that during WW2, London's subway system was used a bombshelter. (I believe that the system as since added additional layers both above an below the WW2 tunnels.)

London also has a number of old stations no longer in use, but that is of more interest to Dark Conspiracy than T2K.....

I know that Moscow's subway was designed to be used as a bombshelter at need, and was built particularly deep.

New York's Subway was not built with bomb shelter use in mind.

Does anyone know of other subway systems that incorporate civil defense in their design?

Uncle Ted
Seoul. They're not designed for NBC warfare, but there are over 3,000 bomb/artillery shelters in Seoul, some of which are subway stations.

[.45cultist]

At least some COG sites definitely had weaponry. I remember reading about when Greenbrier was revealed, the government ended up removing M-16s and M-60s from the site. I haven't heard of any with WW2 weapons, though.

Early CD(1950's) received surplus WWII gear, a lot of it. That was the "salad days" for CD equipment.

[Silent Hunter UK]

London does have some tunnels that could flood; there are special doors fitted near the Thames in case of emergency.

Also, there is a considerable difference between the oldest sub-surface lines (District, Circle, Hammersmith & City, Metropolitan) with main line size double-tracked tunnels and the deep level lines with smaller single bore tunnels.

[swaghauler]

The security at Iron Mountain is HEAVY. At least 8 PA120 certified officers per shift (That I actually saw, there could be more) with M4's and M9's. They also have helmets and ESAPI vests in the guard house and wear Level3A vests normally. They have the FULL ECM suit (chemical, radiological, metal detectors, and bomb dogs) for trucks and personnel entering the facility. It is manned EVERY DAY of the year (including Christmas) and all of the guard houses are fully armored to NIJ Level 4 (according to the window glass UL stickers).

There was a cache of small arms and demo (enough for one large demolition or a dozen small demos) to equip about a Battalion of MPs inside the COG storage site. I swapped the ammo there. There was also food (T-Rations "the family-sized mre," and MREs themselves) and durable medical supplies (bandages, slings, etc...) for about two weeks as well. There were 4 Hummers and 4 5-Tons too. I was told that this was ONE OF MANY COG caches in case of Nuclear War.