Stealing some Morrow Inspiration

[kalos72]

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=54967#post54967

How does the idea of a balloon a mile in the sky maybe with a directional antenna play out in T2K terms?

Wouldn't that extend the range almost to the horizon?

[Targan]

At one mile altitude your line-of-site distance to the horizon is about 90 miles. Hot air balloons can reach higher than 12 miles altitude so your only problem would be length and weight of cable if the balloon was to be tethered to the ground, and some sort of drogue chute or rudder arrangement to keep your directional antenna pointing in the right direction.

If you're using a lifting medium other than hot air, there are additional complications. Hydrogen isn't too hard to produce but storage in a Twilight War scenario might be problematic and of course it's horribly dangerous to use where there's any chance of electrical discharge or naked flame. Helium is the preferred option and is the lifting gas used in the dirigibles described in the Airlords of the Ozarks module but once existing stocks are gone, they're bloody hard to replace in a post-industrial scenario.

[kalos72]

Seeing as how Texas has massive Helium storage I can work something out. :)

Question regarding your 90 mile comment...normal radios can reach farther than that no? Would the idea of a high altitude "radio satelite" even be worth while then?

[kato13]

Since I was the originator of the Morrow discussion I felt I should add my initial feelings on the issue.

Low frequency transmissions should not be a problem over the horizon given that most of the transmitters will be off line.

An AM antenna with 50,000 watts on the Sears tower (~1500 ft in Chicago) would probably be able to reach Maine, Texas, Georgia and Utah if there were not other transmissions on a similar frequency. This is of course a one way transmission and would probably be limited to voice.

As frequencies go higher the LOS limits become more apparent. If you start to get in the realm of data transmission frequencies then you are not going to be able to send that information over the horizon. Two way communication (with the units having less wattage) would also be assisted by some sort of repeater.

For the Morrow Project high density transmissions would be a must so something to replace satellites would be a necessity. Transmission of census data, schematics for repairs, updated fallout information, weather station data and video information are just some of the things that I can see needing these higher transmission levels.

Answering the other point that was brought up I agree that Helium would probably be most abundant in the areas from Kansas (where some NG fields are above 2% He) to Texas. That area would have the least difficulty acquiring it.

[kalos72]

Yeah these comms issues are a bit above me technically speaking.

Does anyone have a website or a military manual that explains these things a bit more? Some resource to better understand current?T2K long range military comms?

[rcaf_777]

The National Helium Reserve, also known as the Federal Helium Reserve, is a strategic reserve of the United States holding over 1 billion cubic meters (1E9 m3) of helium gas. The helium is stored at the Cliffside Storage Facility about 12 miles (19 km) northwest of Amarillo, Texas, in a natural geologic gas storage formation, the Bush Dome[1] reservoir. The reserve was established in 1925 as a strategic supply of gas for airships, and in the 1950s became an important source of coolant during the Space Race and Cold War.

The facilities were located to be close to the Hugoton and other natural gas fields in southwest Kansas and the panhandles of Texas and Oklahoma. The natural gas in these fields contains unusually high percentages of helium, from 0.3% to 2.7%; they constitute the largest source of helium in the United States. The helium is separated as a byproduct from the produced natural gas.

After the Helium Acts Amendments of 1960 (Public Law 86–777), the U.S. Bureau of Mines arranged for five private plants to recover helium from natural gas. For this helium conservation program, the Bureau built a 425-mile (684 km) pipeline from Bushton, Kansas, to connect those plants with the government's partially depleted Cliffside gas field.[2] This helium-nitrogen mixture was injected and stored in the Cliffside gas field until needed, when it then was further purified.

By 1995, a billion cubic metres of the gas had been collected and the reserve was US$1.4 billion in debt, prompting the Congress of the United States in 1996 to phase out the reserve.[3][4] The resulting "Helium Privatization Act of 1996" (Public Law 104–273) directed the United States Department of the Interior to start liquidating the reserve by 2005

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve

[kalos72]

Hot air isn't my problem....err helium. :)

[kalos72]

So then would the mile high hot air balloon idea work for cross US communication? US to Europe / Korea / Middle East?

Did the heavy does of EMP cannon added really kill military communication as badly as they play out?

What would 2001 comms look like for the GOVS then?

[Raellus]

I like the idea of a balloon relay antenna, Kalos. Although a lot of coms would have been fried by EMP, some of the military's shielded stuff and certain high-end civilian devices would still be capable of sending and receiving transmissions. Boosting coms ranges would be an important C&C priority in the post-TDM world and this is one conceivable way to do so.

Finding and returning a relay balloon that has somehow slipping its line (accident, weather event, sabotage) would be a good mission starter for a T2K campaign, especially if it carried some kind of encoding or other sensitive gear as well.

[Trooper]

Helium is expensive and hard to find after nuclear war.

Hot air simply doesn’t have enough lifting capacity.

Hydrogen is something you can make even low tech environment.

The easy way is AN/TMQ-42 Hydrogen Generator!

http://www.jedsite.info/transport-hotel/hotel/hummer_series/antmq-42/antmq42-intro.html

Hitler’s last headquarter had to use balloons to lift antenna up. After all it was air raid shelter, which had only one low capacity switchboard and no permanent antenna for long range communications.

[rcaf_777]

The Los Angeles Times reports that the US military owns a fleet of 20 Humvees equipped with AN/TMQ-42 Hydrogen Generators that produce hydrogen for artillery weather balloons. The vehicles were purchased from Environmental Technologies Group of Baltimore in 1998.

[Targan]

I didn't want to be too much of a wet blanket earlier in the discussion and Kalos did say that, by whatever means he has devised, helium supply wouldn't be a problem. But yes, in a conventional T2K setting, production of anything but small amounts of helium wouldn't be an option for at least years after the war. A more likely scenario would be like that described in Airlords of the Ozarks where an existing supply of refined and pressurized helium is carefully husbanded for as long as it lasts.

Hydrogen is relatively easy to produce (run a current through water) but not necessarily easy to keep pure and to store. I love that AN/TMQ-42 Hydrogen Generator, I had no idea that such a thing as a standardized military hydrogen generator exists. In my opinion (dangers of using hydrogen notwithstanding) that seems like a much, much more realistic and viable option for the application that Kalos is describing.

[kalos72]

Helium/hydrogen is the least of my issues...its understanding some of this data on what would be effective for that long range cross country stuff.

Morrow says they have AN/PRC-70's that can send Voice or CW/Morse Code 4000km...surely thats better then nothing to start. Throw in some code and your good for a good while.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

IIRC, if you take the square root of height in feet and multiply that by 1.4, you get your "radio horizon." (I got that from the "Radio Handbook, First Edition," 1935) So if you have a 100 foot antenna, take the square which is 10 and multiply that by 1.4, you get 14 miles. Of course, lower VHF frequencies might go further plus you have weather and ionospheric conditions too.

Sorry I haven't been around as much, Mom is fighting inflammatory breast cancer, Stage III and is on chemo now. I'm optimistic though, it is a well researched disease and I've run into many women who have kicked it at even Stage IV and/or living while managing it. I talked to one lady who had it for 10 years and been on chemo for 5 straight years and is still going but I'm hoping for my Mom to kick it. Sorry for hijacking the thread but I've been scarce lately.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Since I was the originator of the Morrow discussion I felt I should add my initial feelings on the issue.

Low frequency transmissions should not be a problem over the horizon given that most of the transmitters will be off line.

An AM antenna with 50,000 watts on the Sears tower (~1500 ft in Chicago) would probably be able to reach Maine, Texas, Georgia and Utah if there were not other transmissions on a similar frequency. This is of course a one way transmission and would probably be limited to voice.

As frequencies go higher the LOS limits become more apparent. If you start to get in the realm of data transmission frequencies then you are not going to be able to send that information over the horizon. Two way communication (with the units having less wattage) would also be assisted by some sort of repeater.

For the Morrow Project high density transmissions would be a must so something to replace satellites would be a necessity. Transmission of census data, schematics for repairs, updated fallout information, weather station data and video information are just some of the things that I can see needing these higher transmission levels.

Answering the other point that was brought up I agree that Helium would probably be most abundant in the areas from Kansas (where some NG fields are above 2% He) to Texas. That area would have the least difficulty acquiring it.

Line of sight, you get 54.2 miles for 1500 feet but at AM radio frequencies, the signal follows the curvature of the Earth as well as bounce off the ionosphere at night. Here in Pittsburgh, I can get 1100 (WTAM) out of Cleveland and even 760 (WJR) out of Detroit during the day.

[kato13]

Line of sight, you get 54.2 miles for 1500 feet but at AM radio frequencies, the signal follows the curvature of the Earth as well as bounce off the ionosphere at night. Here in Pittsburgh, I can get 1100 (WTAM) out of Cleveland and even 760 (WJR) out of Detroit during the day.


Best wishes regarding your mom. One of my best friends was in the same position 7 years ago (stage III breast) and currently is suffering no ill effects (except for some residual chemo effects when she loses weight). Hope you can keep yours and her spirits up.

Yeah my dad was a overnight DJ in the late 60s on one of the more powerful Chicago AM stations and he would get callers from across the country. The central location of Chicago, the relative flatness of the nation around here and the overnight bounces really makes it go an amazing distance.

[Adm.Lee]

I'm told there is still a pocket of dedicated St. Louis Cardinals fans in West Virginia, since the radio station carrying baseball games in the '40s and '50s could be clearly heard in that state after dark.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Best wishes regarding your mom. One of my best friends was in the same position 7 years ago (stage III breast) and currently is suffering no ill effects (except for some residual chemo effects when she loses weight). Hope you can keep yours and her spirits up.

Yeah my dad was a overnight DJ in the late 60s on one of the more powerful Chicago AM stations and he would get callers from across the country. The central location of Chicago, the relative flatness of the nation around here and the overnight bounces really makes it go an amazing distance.

Thanks, Kato! Yeah, it is tough but so far as we know, it is just in the left breast and perhaps a small spot on her lung, which is typical. Hopefully the chemo will get it, shrink it and then we will have surgery. I've talked to another patient at Mom's oncologist and she had breast cancer for the least 10 years and the last 5 years, she was on chemo straight. She has issues but she manages her cancer.

Chicago DJ? What station? WCFL, WMAQ or WLS? I've heard of some legendary DJs of the time like Larry Lujack, Jim Runyon (who came up with Chickenman), Barney Pip, John Driscoll, Dick Biondi, Jim Stagg, etc. I pick up Chicago a lot here in Pittsburgh. The furthest I've picked up was an AM station from Berkley, California in my (then) Ford Explorer along with the "Carribean Beacon" from the West Indies. I've also picked up Texas stations. When I was in Florida, I listened to KDKA-AM from here in Pittsburgh and so did my uncle, who worked for NASA at the Cape. My cousins remember him on most nights hearing static and whistles as he tried to pull in KDKA. BTW, WJR's signals skip across the Great Lakes and across a relatively flat Ohio so that's how I get them in the day. I once talked across Lake Erie on 2 meters VHF into Canada across Lake Erie using one 1 watt, the standard HT rubber antenna and 6 penlite batteries.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

I'm told there is still a pocket of dedicated St. Louis Cardinals fans in West Virginia, since the radio station carrying baseball games in the '40s and '50s could be clearly heard in that state after dark.

I think that's KMOX, 1120, out of St. Louis. One of our bigtime talkshow hosts here in Pittsburgh, Mike Pintek, didn't have his contract renewed so he hopped around the country on various stations like KMOX, WBT out of Charlotte, NC and so on. I called him up when he was on KMOX and since I'm from Pittsburgh, a lot of Pittsburghers and nearby WVers called after me.

[kato13]

Chicago DJ? What station? WCFL, WMAQ or WLS? I've heard of some legendary DJs of the time like Larry Lujack, Jim Runyon (who came up with Chickenman), Barney Pip, John Driscoll, Dick Biondi, Jim Stagg, etc.

I was always told that Dick Orkin came up with chickenman. Chickenman_(radio_series). He was really good friends with my dad. They worked together on commercials for decades.

I think my dad was on WLS, WDAI, WFYR, and WXRT at different times. WHile he was supposed to DJ he really did a lot of comedy. I only remember his time at WXRT and a tiny bit at WFYR. I think he knew Larry Lujack and Dick Biondi pretty well. I have met both. Of course the highlight of famous people I have met due to my dad is David Bowie whom I met prenatally :D