Puzzling until my puzzler is sore...

[Adm.Lee]

I've been looking at/thinking about the Norway region in T2k, and in GDW's TWW series. That got me looking at some OrBats that I've picked up through links here. Somehow, I got to thinking about NATO higher HQs and Norway.

Who's in charge in that (sub)theater?

There's 12 brigades of Norwegians (I have a note that they planned to form divisions), a brigade each from Norway, UK, USMC, and NATO, and between 1-3 divisions from the US. And no corps HQ (or heavy artillery)?

The best I can get is that Norway falls under NATO's NorthAG, so there's a British general commanding. But he's also commanding up to five corps in northern Germany and Denmark, he's also supposed to talk direct to another dozen or so smaller formations?

As far as T2k's scenario, I see several possibilities:
1. The Norwegian higher command is recognized as theater command, they come up with corps-equivalent HQs for North, Central, South Norway. Given the US notoriety for not wanting troops under foreign command, this seems problematic, but seems most logical.
2. As NorthAG is British, a British corps HQ is developed to fill some of the gap? Could be in addition to the above.
3. The US Army, if it contributes divisions, comes up with a corps HQ, covering at least the 6th, 10th, 29th Light Divisions, if they all make it to Norway.
4. Even more radical, the US Marines are allowed to expand the expeditionary brigade that they are already sending, into an expeditionary force (nearly a corps equivalent), and US Army and other forces are given its command. Army divisions under Marine command? Surely I jest!

Anyway, I got to thinking about this, as I was wondering about scenarios set in '98, after the American forces are pulled from Norway, and go to Germany. Kept around as a reserve corps, or distributed among the existing corps/armies?

[boogiedowndonovan]

Norway would fall under Allied Forces Northern Europe (AFNORTH), under a British Admiral or General but also Danish and Norwegian deputies, which included the Baltics and Denmark. sub commands for Norway would be Allied Command South Norway (SONOR) and Allied Command North Norway (NON)

here's a wikipedia which explains it more clearly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Forces_Northern_Europe

wiki doesn't say who commands SONOR or NON, I would guess Norwegians.

Not only would British and US contribute, but Allied Mobile Force (AMF) could be deployed to Norway. Theoretically, AMF would include contingents of US, British, Canadian, German, Italian, Spanish, Belgian and Luxemborg in a brigade sized force. I may be leaving some nations out. Not sure how this would work out in T2k because Spain declares neutrality and Belgium and Italy withdraw from NATO. For what it is worth canon does not mention AMF.

Also, the Dutch deploy the 1st Marine Group with the British 3rd Commando Brigade, and the Dutch 2nd Marine Group is part of AMF. I seem to recall both mentioned in the NATO vehicle guide.

I can't specifically remember which British and Canadian units go to Norway in T2k canon. I think 3 PARA and another light infantry battalion from the British and a Canadian infantry battalion, if I recall.

If someone has "Boomer" handy, they can check.

[Cdnwolf]

The United States' contingent, in the form of
detachments from the US 6th Marine Regiment and 10th Infantry
Division (Mountain), began arriving on 1 November 1996.
British units fSAS, paratrooper, and Royal Marine Commandos)
and a detachment from the Canadian Airborne Regiment were
also sent to various parts of Norway.


By December, reinforcements had arrived — in the form of the
British 2nd Paras, the British 2nd/Royal Green Jackets, the US
4th Marine Amphibious Brigade, the US 6th Infantry Division
(Light), and numerous smaller specialty and support units —and
NATO began a counteroffensive.





Quoted from Boomer module.

[Adm.Lee]

OK, so two presumably-Norwegian corps-equivalent commands-- south and north. Fair enough. I don't know why I didn't turn that up when I went wiki-ing.

Re: Boomer and canon: odd that the US Marine brigade is listed apparently separate from the regiment that is its land component.

Also that there are "numerous smaller specialty and support units"-- that's something I could exploit in tweaking things for the history I want.

I need to get to gaming this, per the T2k canon, someday. I can guesstimate, as I remember TWW, it would not be pretty for the Soviets.

[Cdnwolf]

Check your private messages...

Adm Lee

[Adm.Lee]

Thanks.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Re: Boomer and canon: odd that the US Marine brigade is listed apparently separate from the regiment that is its land component.

Also that there are "numerous smaller specialty and support units"-- that's something I could exploit in tweaking things for the history I want.




Could be that an MEU first deployed, then the rest of the regiment plus attachments arrived.

regarding "numerous smaller specialty and support units", 1-125 Field Artillery Minnesota National Guard was supposed to deploy to Norway if things went bad in RL. They (and the 4th MEB) had equipment pre-positioned in Norway.

In my campaign, a National Guard infantry brigade also goes to Norway. 3-172nd Infantry VT NG is the only mountain infantry unit in the US, in my campaign, 3-172nd is one of three other mountain infantry battalions that comprise the NG brigade sent to Norway (in my campaign 172nd IB, but I am not very imaginative). The 172nd IB includes 3-172nd, an NG battalion from Colorado and I can't remember the rest, will need to check notes when I am home.

[Adm.Lee]

regarding "numerous smaller specialty and support units", 1-125 Field Artillery Minnesota National Guard was supposed to deploy to Norway if things went bad in RL. They (and the 4th MEB) had equipment pre-positioned in Norway.

In my campaign, a National Guard infantry brigade also goes to Norway. 3-172nd Infantry VT NG is the only mountain infantry unit in the US, in my campaign, 3-172nd is one of three other mountain infantry battalions that comprise the NG brigade sent to Norway (in my campaign 172nd IB, but I am not very imaginative). The 172nd IB includes 3-172nd, an NG battalion from Colorado and I can't remember the rest, will need to check notes when I am home.

OK. I'm running off a 1989 OB that I pulled off the web (tanknet?) It's as good a source as any other, AFAICT.

I thought the 172nd IB got inflated into the 6th LID? I do see a 3-172 IN, Vermont Guard, believed to be attached to the 10th.

I see a 1-125 FA battalion in the WI NG, in the 57th FA Brigade. I did think the Norway forces looked thin on heavy artillery, so I was thinking at least one FA brigade ought to end up there.

IMC, I was thinking if NATO was serious about an offensive up there, then the 29th LID (not in the USAVG, I believe?), a corps HQ, and some artillery ought to go. Some armor would help, too, but I'm sure that's all going to the real center of action, Germany. Maybe some choppers, instead, for some air-assault action.

Branching off into Corps HQs and numbers, why on earth are new-raised US HQs numbered so illogically? The existing numbers are all odd numbers, why are the low even numbers ignored? So, *I* think this one ought to be the VI Corps, and the two new corps that go to Germany can be the II and IV.

[boogiedowndonovan]

OK. I'm running off a 1989 OB that I pulled off the web (tanknet?) It's as good a source as any other, AFAICT.

I thought the 172nd IB got inflated into the 6th LID? I do see a 3-172 IN, Vermont Guard, believed to be attached to the 10th.

I see a 1-125 FA battalion in the WI NG, in the 57th FA Brigade. I did think the Norway forces looked thin on heavy artillery, so I was thinking at least one FA brigade ought to end up there.

IMC, I was thinking if NATO was serious about an offensive up there, then the 29th LID (not in the USAVG, I believe?), a corps HQ, and some artillery ought to go. Some armor would help, too, but I'm sure that's all going to the real center of action, Germany. Maybe some choppers, instead, for some air-assault action.

Branching off into Corps HQs and numbers, why on earth are new-raised US HQs numbered so illogically? The existing numbers are all odd numbers, why are the low even numbers ignored? So, *I* think this one ought to be the VI Corps, and the two new corps that go to Germany can be the II and IV.


The 1989 NATO orbat is very good. I like it, but it isn't error free and the authors (pcallahan actually) admits it is still in a working state. I have it downloaded on my work computer (don't tell my corporate overlords.)

1-125th FA is listed as part of the 57th FA WI NG but it is a MN NG unit. It also looks like the authors weren't sure if 3-172nd had a parent unit as of 1989.

here is the unit history from the MN NG site

http://www.minnesotanationalguard.org/units/PU1T0/history.php

In 1996, it was assigned the Norway mission. I have no idea if there was another NG FA battalion that was previously assigned.

172nd IB was rolled into 6th ID in RL. Then when 6th ID was disbanded during the 90's drawdown and 1st brigade 6th ID was reflagged as 172nd IB. In the 2000s 172nd IB was a Stryker brigade, went to Irag, disbanded again and reactivated as a heavy brigade in Germany and disbanded again.

I used 172nd for my fictitious mountain infantry NG brigade because that number would be available in the T2k world. Although one site, globalsecurity.org I think, mentions that plans were made for a brigade of mountain infantry. And it also appears that there is a RL mountain infantry brigade as of 2006, 86th Infantry Brigade (Mountain) of which 3-172nd is a component.

29th LID does not exist in the T2k US vehicle guide, however if you look at the entry for the 46th Infantry Division, it looks like the authors used the 29th as a template, replaced one of the VA NG brigades with the 92nd IB from Puerto Rico and classified the division as an infantry division (H-series ToE?). Not sure why they did this, maybe they didn't have the information available at the time. But it is more logical to keep the 29th LID and send it to Europe, either Norway or possibly Germany with a rear area security mission as well as keep the 92nd IB in Puerto Rico or possibly Panama?

and if you follow the T2k ToE for LID, then it would have a battalion of light armor, LAV-75/M8 AGS or whatever.

in the end, it is your campaign to do as you see fit. just be careful of those who scream "you can't do that it's not canon" :)

and yay for slow Fridays.

[Adm.Lee]

1-125th FA is listed as part of the 57th FA WI NG but it is a MN NG unit. It also looks like the authors weren't sure if 3-172nd had a parent unit as of 1989.

here is the unit history from the MN NG site

http://www.minnesotanationalguard.org/units/PU1T0/history.php

In 1996, it was assigned the Norway mission. I have no idea if there was another NG FA battalion that was previously assigned.

OK, thanks.



29th LID does not exist in the T2k US vehicle guide, however if you look at the entry for the 46th Infantry Division, it looks like the authors used the 29th as a template, ... But it is more logical to keep the 29th LID and send it to Europe, either Norway or possibly Germany with a rear area security mission as well as keep the 92nd IB in Puerto Rico or possibly Panama?

It made sense to me, anyway.

and if you follow the T2k ToE for LID, then it would have a battalion of light armor, LAV-75/M8 AGS or whatever.

Yeah, that's pulling at me, too. I find myself partial to light tanks, or the equivalent.

[Benjamin]

ACE Mobile force also at times included a French battalion. Given that some canon sources state that the Soviets invaded Norway in mid-November, I had the full ACE Mobile force deploy to Norway as per pre-war plans. This included the French contingent which was recalled when US, UK, Canada crossed the IGB. Some Frenchmen refused to abandon their long time allies and remained in Norway. Such was the confused state of global affairs as the Twilight War grew to engulf the world.

Furthermore I kept Spain and Portugal in NATO but non-belligerents regarding the fighting in Germany. This changed in early July when Italian aircraft struck Spanish ports as part of their ill fated effort to clear NATO naval assets from the Med.

Of course my T2K differs from canon in that the Soviet temporarily capture Iceland (stolen from Red Storm Rising) and Italy's entry into the war against NATO forces the withdrawal back through Poland. I figured the Soviets would have made it clear in no uncertain terms to the US President that any German troops on Soviet soil would have meant immediate nuclear release. Thusly, both the Brits and US would tell the Germans that they are to in no way cross the Soviet border. Italy and Greece's entry into the war decides the issue as NATO rushes to shore up Austria and Bavaria. Of course Italy's stupid decision to launch pre-emptive strikes against Spanish ports equalizes the situation in the region.

Benjamin

[boogiedowndonovan]

ACE Mobile force also at times included a French battalion. Given that some canon sources state that the Soviets invaded Norway in mid-November, I had the full ACE Mobile force deploy to Norway as per pre-war plans. This included the French contingent which was recalled when US, UK, Canada crossed the IGB. Some Frenchmen refused to abandon their long time allies and remained in Norway. Such was the confused state of global affairs as the Twilight War grew to engulf the world.

Yeah I seem to recall another Norway orbat that included a "renegade" Italians who stuck around after Italy withdrew from NATO. I thiink it was a DC working group orbat.

I do the same thing with the Belgians, although in my campaign the Belgians don't quit NATO and honor their NATO commitments.