What happened to US troops and equipment in turncoat nations?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I know there's no US detachments in France, but regarding Italy and others, what, do they imprison the US troops, deport them and seize their equipment, order them out of the country with all their gear wholesale? What?

[Rainbow Six]

I'm travelling at the moment so don't have a copy to hand but I think Med Cruise may cover some locations. As best as I can remember no nation goes from US ally to US enemy overnight - initially at least they all adopt a neutral stance, so I think most likely option is a US withdrawal from the bases / nations in question, probably in an orderly manner and to an agreed timescale and probably with all of their equipment / material. There might be some local friction initially but I don't think any of the host Governments involved would risk US retaliation by actively trying to seize US personnel / equipment at such an early stage of the War. Host Goverments would probably also want the Americans out of their countries ASAP as perception is likely to be that their presence makes their countries potential targets. So I go for a relatively peaceful but also relatively rapid departure.

[Olefin]

Med Cruise is not exactly the most well written module as to what happened with the NATO allies. Having the Spanish not support NATO, especially after getting nuked by the Russians in the exchange is not a very realistic depiction at all of a country that at the time still had a very significant history of opposition to the Soviets.

If anything I could see Spain splitting apart during the war with a renewed fight between the left who would support the Soviets and the right who would support NATO.

If anyone was seized by the French, Greeks and Italians it may have been Air Force, Naval and Army personnel who were unlucky enough to be in those nations when they actively went hostile - i.e. aircraft and naval crews who were there because they had to land for repairs or fuel or whatever.

However they may have just been interned instead of being POW's - especially those in France.

[Raellus]

I don't know. It's not a like-for-like comparison, but Spain did kind of knuckle under after the Madrid train bombings and, by comparison to a T2K type scenario, the casualties were minimal and the enemy not nearly as dangerous. It's not beyond the realm of comprehension for the Cold War Spanish government to respond to a nuclear bloody nose by bowing out of the war.

I don't see U.S. forces being pulled from formerly allied nations that suddenly start putting out a lukewarm vibe. On the other hand, some "turncoat nations" might expel U.S. personnel prior to officially turning coats. I think what "turncoat nations" do with American personnel and materiel depends on the timing of their respective declared changes of heart. If it's after things go nuclear, I suspect they'd intern U.S. personnel, effectively turning them into hostages/human shields against a possible American nuclear response. Any American materiel would be "impounded" and eventually used. I don't have my v1.0 timeline in front of me at the moment, so I can't be more specific.

[mpipes]

Perhaps a more interesting question is what happens to US nationals after war with NATO and those nations break out. Typically, those civilians will be expelled or interned. Do you get back to the states and find out your sister was interned in Italy? Does your team make to OMEGA pullout out only to learn your families were was interned in France while trying to evacuate just as the after nukes start flying? Or, you're a group of interned civilians, and after things get "bad" decide you have to escape to US forces.

As far as NATO, the treaty specifies withdrawal of troops and equipment. We would leave ASAP I'm sure.

[stormlion1]

Just how do you 'intern' a base full of military personnel without killing all of them? I don't just see the troops laying down there arms just because a host nation tells them to. If the place has a airstrip I could see the fenceline being manned and personnel being flown out and any equipment that couldn't be transported out being destroyed in place or if not disabled as much as possible. It might be possible with a small post but most military bases are pretty big and it wouldn't be easily done, or done quietly.

[Raellus]

Just how do you 'intern' a base full of military personnel without killing all of them? I don't just see the troops laying down there arms just because a host nation tells them to. If the place has a airstrip I could see the fenceline being manned and personnel being flown out and any equipment that couldn't be transported out being destroyed in place or if not disabled as much as possible. It might be possible with a small post but most military bases are pretty big and it wouldn't be easily done, or done quietly.

Right, so the host nation would be taking a fairly large calculated risk in using force to "reduce" a non-compliant facility. But, those U.S. personnel on base have got to know that fighting back would likely be making a last stand. Supplying/evacuating the base by air would be creating a Berlin Airlift-like standoff and a country willing to shoot down the transport aircraft could likely do so fairly easily. Even a handful of AAA and MANPADs could effectively deny access if employed prudently. And most bases in friendly nations have fairly large, soft perimeters that rely on local security forces just about as much as it does on U.S. military personnel. If a host country has the will to use deadly force to shut bring a recalcitrant American base commander to heel, there wouldn't be too much he/she could do about it that wouldn't result in a massacre (of U.S. forces). What I see as the more likely outcome would be a lengthy standoff, followed by the Americans destroying as much of their equipment as possible, before surrendering and heading into internment. A siege with significant combat would make a good premise for Hollywood action movie, though, but not a particularly realistic one I'm afraid.

Really, it all depends on timing. If the U.S. caught wind of such a thing early and diplomacy couldn't resolve the situation, I'm sure most of the base could be evacuated and heavy equipment destroyed. If it were a sudden coup-de-main type operation, I'm sure U.S. forces would attempt to fight back but the local forces, having taken the initiative (and presumably applying overwhelming force) would likely prevail. A "we're staying so take your best shot" type scenario could lead to all kinds of messy, ugly outcomes.

[Trooper]

Three ”turncoat” cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Slovenia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic

"Savages fight to last drop of blood…”
Prime Minister Edwin Linkomies

[Rainbow Six]

Out of interest how many facilities are we talking about here? I know there were multiple bases in Spain (Rota, Torrejon, Moron), multiple bases in Italy (Naples, Sigonella, Aviano), Souda Bay in Crete and Hellenikon on mainland Greece - were there others? (I know some of these may have closed irl during the early 90's). Presumably there would have been a US presence in Belgium as part of NATO headquarters but then the whole of SHAPE would have to be relocated when Belgium declared neutrality and i don't see anyone interfering with that (Germany would seem the logical choice for that relocation). Were any POMCUS sites in Belgium? That might be a trickier one as you have no major US units on site to move the gear so the Belgians might have been tempted to try and "appropriate" said gear but as I said in an earlier post you are at a very early stage of the war at this point so the Belgians would have to tread carefully not knowing how the US government would respond to such a move.

For the others, Spain remains neutral throughout, as do Portugal and France and iirc it's some six or seven months before Italy and Greece join the war on the pact side so I still think there is more than enough time for all of those facilities to be evacuated in an orderly and peaceful manner. I don't see "internment" of personnel at those bases happening in any way. Civilians in Italy and Greece after hostilities are declared, yeah, maybe, also any military aircraft or warships that are forced to land / dock in French / Spanish territory but I also don't see any reason why either France or Spain are likely to start rounding up American civilians and putting them in camps even after the nukes are flying. If you want to look at instances where internment is more likely I think you have to consider us - and other NATO nations - civilians who happen to be in Warsaw Pact countries at the start of the war.