US Unit in China

[rcaf_777]

Branching off from the WP units in China, what about a US unit is China?

I mean something a Intel Unit that gather intel from WP and Soviet POW, or techincal Intel from captured equipment?

[boogiedowndonovan]

Branching off from the WP units in China, what about a US unit is China?

I mean something a Intel Unit that gather intel from WP and Soviet POW, or techincal Intel from captured equipment?


In my opinion,

That would probably be the realm of the CIA/DIA/NSA, at least before the US crosses the inter German border and engages the Warsaw Pact. The CIA Special Activities Division would conceivably run some operations in China before official US engagement.

You might also get some "retired" US personnel as observers attached to Chinese units.

You might also get some civilian tech reps once the West starts selling weapons and equipment to China.

Likewise with other NATO and even non NATO nations that are opposed to the Soviet Union (ie Israel, South Africa). They may send some observers as well and even clandestine intelligence officers, but anything overt, probably not at the start.

We've discussed foreign volunteers ala the Flying Tigers as well in previous threads.

Once NATO officially commits against the Warsaw Pact, then yes, you may see units deployed, and foreign volunteer formations may even get official designation similar to how the Flying Tigers became part of the US Army Air Corps.

[mpipes]

The 2nd Infantry Division for certain. Marines too. Anything that went to S. Korea/Japan likely ended up in China. Other forces that ended up in China include the UK's Hong Kong garrison, at least two Australian Divisions, a New Zealand brigade or division, a Japanese force, a Taiwanese Division, probably a Filipino force, and as much of S. Korea's army as can get there. Everyone would be hating the Soviets, and I believe everyone would be there at some point.

[mikeo80]

I respectfully disagree with MPIPES on units in China. There is the small matter of North Korea. The US forces would still be deadlocked facing North Korea. Now IF the Norks throw in with China, and come to some kind of agreement with South Korea, then maybe this would work.

Another consideration, transporting this much fire power to China. The SU nuked China without mercy. Port cities would certainly be on the list. Especially once the US starts sending supplies of AT weapons. (Per 1.0 and 2.2 canon)

A third consideration, 7th Fleet. How much is left? We all know what happened in the Atlantic and the Baltic between USSR and NATO. I have to re-read the Naval units that are left after TDM.

Fourth Consideration, shipping ability. How much cargo/personnel shipping is left? Especially with so much emphasis on NATO.

I think I will get off of my soap box now.

My $0.02

Mike

[boogiedowndonovan]

If you go by cannnnon, 2nd ID and other units deployed to South Korea fend off the North Korean invasion and push the North Koreans all the way north into China, then link up with the Chinese army. Once nukes enter the picture, the US units are pushed back to Korea and basically end up where they started hunkered down behind the fortifications at the DMZ.

I don't have the US Vehicle Guide in front of me, but at least one of the US divisions, 2nd ID I think, is briefly cut off and comes under command of one of the Chinese armies. Then once the nukes start flying, makes it way back to ROK. One of the other divisions abandons its heavy equipment, and the 7th LID and 25th LID are basically overrun and reform in ROK with less that 1000 survivors.

so technically yes, US forces were deployed to China.

Cannnnon also has the British forces in Hong Kong forming the 6th ID and heading north. As far as other Asia-Pacific nations joining, in my campaign the Australians and Kiwis contribute smaller forces, battalion each.

Australians sending 2 divisions and New Zealand sending a division? not sure about that, the Aussies on this board would have better information but that is pretty much their entire army including reserves. Likewise with New Zealand, which is much smaller.

not sure about the Japanese sending ground forces either, too much bad feelings from the last war. Aircraft and naval forces, definitely, but not ground troops. not to mention the Japanese facing the Soviets over the Kuriles. V2 has the Soviets and Japanese fighting over the Kuriles and Sakhalin islands.

but if they work for your campaign, so be it.

I could see the Taiwanese intervening and sending an expeditionary force. I do that in my campaign.

By the OP's wording, I took it to mean a US unit sent to China before the hostilities between NATO and WP. Its possible that a US unit is sent to Hong Kong during that time since Hong Kong at that time was technically not "Chinese". :D After hostilities, then who knows.

[Olefin]

I think the US forces may actually in some places be north of the DMZ or at least its inferred. Always had issues with how the canon has the US forces hurt so badly in Korea. The Russian forces assigned to that area, to say it bluntly, couldnt have done that level of damage to the US forces. And the NK forces seem to have had their heads handed to them by the US and Chinese - i.e. if the US is meeting up with them at the Yalu then most likely they have either been very heavily damaged or they have withdrawn into Russia towards Vladivostok.

If you read the Russian unit histories you dont see ones that fought in Korea and then got shifted. Plus there should be Chinese units that retreated with the US back to Korea.

As for Taiwanese forces - with the condition of China right now they may actually have re-invaded the Chinese mainland and re-established a presence there, possibly allying with a local warlord to do so.

[Targan]

Anzac forces sent overseas during the Twilight War would be battalion-sized elements, not divisions. How many battalions would be committed would be greatly influenced by the timeline of the conflict with Indonesia. At the first hint of aggression from the Indonesians, Australian forces would be consolidated wherever possible to deal with that threat.

In part it's a cultural thing, whether it's realistic or not, popular culture in Australia has always held up Indonesia as our own local bogey man. I guess there is some threat there (Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim nation and they outnumber us literally 10 to 1 in population) but their military is poorly trained and poorly equipped.

[Olefin]

I think the fact that Indonesia has grabbed up what was left of the Dutch holdings on New Guinea and invaded Portuguese Timor and has made statements about Papau New Guinea that makes them the boogeyman - i.e. they have shown an alarming tendency to invade and expand their territory - and Australia would be a very tempting target for a country with a very large growing population and no where left to put them.

[Targan]

I think if Australia hadn't just been through the trauma of the Vietnam War we might have been more inclined to stand up to Indonesia when it invaded East Timor and West Papua during the 1970s. I was just a kid at the time but looking back on it now it seems like abject political cowardice on Australia's part. The Australian Army kicked the sh*t out of the pro-Indonesian militias in East Timor in 1999, I think it would've given the Indonesian Army advisers a hell of a wake up call when they saw what happened to the militias. East Timorese independence wouldn't have occurred in the T2K timeline though.

[chico20854]

I'm working with a couple ideas for US troops in China, beyond the temporary linkup of 8th Army & PLA forces in mid-1997 (which I imagine would be along the west coast of the peninsula, with the Norks & Soviet Yalu Front holed up in the central mountains and northeast coast).

First, as mentioned above the British 6th ID is active in the area. I threw in an American infantry battalion, 1st Bn 31st Infantry, with Bradleys into the British division. These guys were soldiers that were serving as advisors and technical specialists training and supporting Chinese troops that were receiving American equipment, operating from a base somewhere securely south of the front, probably near Hong Kong. (Historically, this battalion was always raised overseas, having never once step foot on American soil!) They also get the remnants of the 6th Ranger Battalion after the Cam Ranh Bay raid.

The second, more radical idea, is a covert SAC emergency recovery field in the Takla Makan desert in SW China, to take advantage of the weakness of the PVO (Soviet Air Defense Force) in Central Asia, which historically had the least modern systems and aircraft. It comes in handy when trying to refuel B-1s that are making a "through-trip" across the North Pole, so they don't have to try to tank in a hostile area. Its supplied entirely by air over the Himalays from Diego Garcia, Pakistan or Thailand.

The DC Group is working off an ANZAC mech bde in CENTCOM and an ANZAC light brigade in Korea, in addition to 2nd Bn, Royal Australian Regiment in the British 6th Division and Australian leadership of a composite Commonwealth training cadre that forms part of 6th Division's artillery.

[boogiedowndonovan]

I'm working with a couple ideas for US troops in China, beyond the temporary linkup of 8th Army & PLA forces in mid-1997 (which I imagine would be along the west coast of the peninsula, with the Norks & Soviet Yalu Front holed up in the central mountains and northeast coast).

First, as mentioned above the British 6th ID is active in the area. I threw in an American infantry battalion, 1st Bn 31st Infantry, with Bradleys into the British division. These guys were soldiers that were serving as advisors and technical specialists training and supporting Chinese troops that were receiving American equipment, operating from a base somewhere securely south of the front, probably near Hong Kong. (Historically, this battalion was always raised overseas, having never once step foot on American soil!) They also get the remnants of the 6th Ranger Battalion after the Cam Ranh Bay raid.

The second, more radical idea, is a covert SAC emergency recovery field in the Takla Makan desert in SW China, to take advantage of the weakness of the PVO (Soviet Air Defense Force) in Central Asia, which historically had the least modern systems and aircraft. It comes in handy when trying to refuel B-1s that are making a "through-trip" across the North Pole, so they don't have to try to tank in a hostile area. Its supplied entirely by air over the Himalays from Diego Garcia, Pakistan or Thailand.

The DC Group is working off an ANZAC mech bde in CENTCOM and an ANZAC light brigade in Korea, in addition to 2nd Bn, Royal Australian Regiment in the British 6th Division and Australian leadership of a composite Commonwealth training cadre that forms part of 6th Division's artillery.


Thats an interesting concept, forming a unit from trainers and advisors. I would think that they would better serve still attached to the PRC, at least the advisors anyways. Thats just my opinion as well. I like the idea though and it throws in Bradleys and other American equipment.

As for the SAC idea, I think the Matt Wiser proposed something along that line awhile back.

I see the 6th UK ID filled out with more Hong Kong personnel, but I do have commonwealth units contributing, as well as a Commonwealth brigade in Korea.

don't get me wrong, I like the ideas.