Podcast, 2100 EDT tonight, Frank Frey, Twilight 2000

[Jason Weiser]

http://podcastatgroundzero.com

Be there or be square!

[Raellus]

For those of us who can't make the live show, are old blogisodes available for viewing?

[Tegyrius]

It looks like the YouTube channel does host older episodes.

Ouch. They're going to be talking 2013, too. I'll let someone else tell me how bad they trash it so I can be braced when I watch it myself.

- C.

[mikeo80]

Please let me know if it available on Youtube. I just got home from work, so I missed the podcast.

My $0.02

Mike

[Raellus]

I just finished the podcast. Here's my summary/review:

The host, Jarred "Apocalypse Nerd" Wallace, Scott Glancy (one-time contributor here), and Frank Frey don't actually start talking about T2K until about 10 minutes into the podcast.

They start with a brief background of the game and then it kind of devolves. Frank gets interrupted and talked over quite a bit throughout the show, but he doesn't seem upset by it. Glancy dominates the conversation- he clearly has a lot of knowledge of and enthusiasm for the game, and he backs it up by showing off his impressive collection of official T2K resources. He and Frank reminisce about certain settings, materials, NPCs, and the like while the host kicks back and mostly listens (he admits early on to only having played the v1.0 a couple of times before growing disillusioned with its complexity and gritty realism).

Frank gives a few insider tidbits about how he got involved in writing for T2K, and there's a fair bit of discussion about the Black Madonna module (mostly devoted to the NPC, Molly Warren).

They chat a little about how real history kind of passed the game by, and how GDW tried to raise it from the ashes with a more "up-to-date" timeline (v2.0 and v2.2). Frank makes the point- with which I agree wholeheartedly- that T2K works best as an alternative history RPG, and that the various reboots weren't really necessary. They also discuss Twilight 2300 a bit.

For the last seven or eight minutes, they slag Twilight 2013. Glancy savages the setting/backstory, gleefully bashing it by reading from reviews of the T2013 background ("he doesn't ever cite the reviews he's paraphrasing from"). He doesn't find fault with the system. For that matter, he never claims to have looked at it or tried it out. Frank says that he has it on PDF but that he didn't care for any of it.

Lastly, Frank says that if he had to do it all over again, he would use a mechanics system like Savage Worlds' for the T2K alternative history setting, since, in his experience, it's a fairly simple, fast, flexible, and fun system that would have worked really well for T2K. Glancy and Wallace then tease Frank about getting hold of the license for T2K and making it happen.

Anyway, far a T2K superfan, it was kind of interesting.

[Targan]

I'll definitely be listening to the podcast myself as soon as practically possible.

Frank gets interrupted and talked over quite a bit throughout the show, but he doesn't seem upset by it. Glancy dominates the conversation- he clearly has a lot of knowledge of and enthusiasm for the game, and he backs it up by showing off his impressive collection of official T2K resources.Well that's disappointing. When you're the biggest expert available you have the right to dominate the convcersation but when the other interviewee is Frank Frey... well, if it was me I'd be taking a back seat, if for no other reason that the interview time is finite and how often do we get to hear from the legendary Frank Frey himself?

He and Frank reminisce about certain settings, materials, NPCs, and the like while the host kicks back and mostly listens (he admits early on to only having played the v1.0 a couple of times before growing disillusioned with its complexity and gritty realism).Funny, the complexity and gritty realism are two of the main reasons why I like it so much.

For the last seven or eight minutes, they slag Twilight 2013. Glancy savages the setting/backstory, gleefully bashing it by reading from reviews of the T2013 background ("he doesn't ever cite the reviews he's paraphrasing from"). He doesn't find fault with the system. For that matter, he never claims to have looked at it or tried it out. Frank says that he has it on PDF but that he didn't care for any of it.Also pretty disappointing. I think the T2013 rules are excellent, and there's nothing stopping those who don't like it's backstory from using that rules set with the original T2K timeline. At least it sounds like Frank took a look at T2013. I'm disappointed that Scott would voice strong negative opinions about something he's never personally read.

[cavtroop]

Also pretty disappointing. I think the T2013 rules are excellent, and there's nothing stopping those who don't like it's backstory from using that rules set with the original T2K timeline. At least it sounds like Frank took a look at T2013. I'm disappointed that Scott would voice strong negative opinions about something he's never personally read.

This drives me insane (I'm sure it drives those involved with 2013, such as Tegyrius, even more apoplectic). The rules for 2013 are great IMHO. People bash the background and end up throwing away the baby with the bath water. I'm also on record as saying the background isn't so bad, just that I grew up with the v1 background and would prefer to use that. There is no reason you can't use the rules with whatever background you wanted to use them with. How many people that bash 2013 ever gave it a fair chance?

And Frank wishes he could use something like Savage Worlds? UGH. I loathe Savage Worlds. Played several different games with that system (Fantasy, Noir, Deadlands Reloaded etc) - it's so milquetoast its boring. All characters essentially feel the same, none of the various magic systems inspire anything but abject boredom for me, and the system seems so dumbed down and generic. Just not a fan at all. I prefer crunch in my rules, thank you :)

[Raellus]

This drives me insane (I'm sure it drives those involved with 2013, such as Tegyrius, even more apoplectic). The rules for 2013 are great IMHO. People bash the background and end up throwing away the baby with the bath water. I'm also on record as saying the background isn't so bad, just that I grew up with the v1 background and would prefer to use that. There is no reason you can't use the rules with whatever background you wanted to use them with. How many people that bash 2013 ever gave it a fair chance?

I agree that a game shouldn't be judged solely on the merits (or lack thereof) of its system OR on its story alone. From what I've read, the reflex system is pretty darn cool. But, we're all already initiates to the T2K world here, and most of us are flexible enough to be able to marry a system from one game to the preferred backstory of another. On the other hand, for someone just getting into T2K-style roleplaying, a bad story can be a total nonstarter. If I'd known nothing about T2K and saw T2013 on a shelf, I most definitely would have checked it out (because I like military stuff and RPGs). But I probably wouldn't have bought it after reading the backstory. It can make or break a game, especially if its the consumer's first exposure to the product/concept.

As to Savage Worlds, I know nothing about the system or setting so I can't comment on the validity of what Frank said.

[Targan]

Well I just watched the podcast and I found it pretty frustrating. A number of times I found myself shouting at the screen "Just let Frank talk". When you've got Frank Frey in a webcast and he's willing to reminisce about Twilight: 2000, let him talk! Hell, let him ramble, there'll be gold in there.

[Jason Weiser]

Yeah, Here is what I think of the Podcast
The podcast did not need a video element.

The hosts talked over Frank.

Have a plan - Watching what I could (some connection issues there) it was way too "do whatever feels good man!" kinda talk. An interview isn't freewheeling. I've done interviews. You ask questions, you let the guy answer. Then, if he says something interesting in his answer, you ask a followup.


If I had a better internet connection, I'd do my own T2K podcast, we sorely need one.

[Olefin]

Missed the podcast

Love to have asked him things like:

Where did the extra tanks come from in the RDF compared to the US Army Guide and solve did they come from the Saudis, the French or did some get shipped from Europe along with the men - i.e. was there a second convoy besides Omega?

How did he see the future of the RDF area going - he dropped some obvious hints that some of the Tudeh might turn against the Soviets and possibly de-stabilize the entire Soviet postion there

More details on Lions of Africa and would he consider actually doing the module as the ultimate "fan" module?

[Adm.Lee]

I find it odd that I can see it on my desktop, but when I try to stream it to my TV, it's "episode not found."

EDIT: just watched it. I endorse the commentary of Raellus, Targan and J.Weiser, and don't see much to add to it.

I did appreciate that Glancy was a serious fan of the game, perhaps it would have been better to have separate interviews with Glancy and Frey. They could have brought Frank in for just half of the show, and done it much better.

I can't recall which one first said it, but Frank touched on it again in the closing words: T2k's universe got "medieval" pretty quickly. I think that was one of the themes that kept me interested in the game-- a captain with 80+ soldiers under his command can turn into a warlord, for better or worse. Later reading in the slow-motion collapse of the Roman Empire brought this to me again.

[Olefin]

Did Frank say he approved of how quickly the modules had the world basically rapidly going down the toilet - i.e. medieval? His modules seemed much more where the warring armies are reduced but are still modern armies fighting a war against each other - not the Wiseman modules where you are lucky to be able to have a single tank still in operation in a 100 miles situation.

[Raellus]

Did Frank say he approved of how quickly the modules had the world basically rapidly going down the toilet - i.e. medieval? His modules seemed much more where the warring armies are reduced but are still modern armies fighting a war against each other - not the Wiseman modules where you are lucky to be able to have a single tank still in operation in a 100 miles situation.

Not in so many words, but yes. He liked the medieval- Thirty Years' War feel of the game. Both he and Glancy said that they liked that kind of world because a lot of the fun of playing T2K is the rebuilding society on a small scale aspect of the game- the PCs becoming a light in the world of darkness, so to speak.

Why don't you watch it yourself? Just go to the link in this thread. It's still up on Youtube.

[Adm.Lee]

Not in so many words, but yes. He liked the medieval- Thirty Years' War feel of the game. Both he and Glancy said that they liked that kind of world because a lot of the fun of playing T2K is the rebuilding society on a small scale aspect of the game- the PCs becoming a light in the world of darkness, so to speak.

They also used "medieval" and "pre-Thirty Years War" in reference to the new phenomena of foreigners appearing in armies that are no longer exclusively national. Such as Capt. Molly Warren, although American, becoming a Baroness in the new Silesian Kingdom, or many 5th Division PCs being not American. Nationality is a much less important characteristic anymore.

[Raellus]

They also used "medieval" and "pre-Thirty Years War" in reference to the new phenomena of foreigners appearing in armies that are no longer exclusively national. Such as Capt. Molly Warren, although American, becoming a Baroness in the new Silesian Kingdom, or many 5th Division PCs being not American. Nationality is a much less important characteristic anymore.

True. It came up a few times. I couldn't agree more.

[Raellus]

More details on Lions of Africa and would he consider actually doing the module as the ultimate "fan" module?

They didn't really ask him point-blank if he would ever create more original material for T2K, but my impression was that he's moved on. See my previous comment about his idea about mating the T2K setting to the Savage Worlds mechanics. That's as close as he got to suggesting that he would revisit T2K, and that was more of a "could have, would have, should have" type deal. And, at the risk of coming across as totally self-serving, there was this from Frank, back in May of 2010, regarding my Operation Proud Lion stuff:

Raellus,

Excellent work. You really know your stuff! I am very pleased with the material. I pass the torch of T2K Africa to your very capable hands. You da man!

Out Here,
Frank Frey

I don't want to put words in Frank's mouth, but it doesn't sound like he's interested in reviving his unpublished Lions of Twilight materials.

[Tegyrius]

I agree that a game shouldn't be judged solely on the merits (or lack thereof) of its system OR on its story alone. From what I've read, the reflex system is pretty darn cool. But, we're all already initiates to the T2K world here, and most of us are flexible enough to be able to marry a system from one game to the preferred backstory of another. On the other hand, for someone just getting into T2K-style roleplaying, a bad story can be a total nonstarter. If I'd known nothing about T2K and saw T2013 on a shelf, I most definitely would have checked it out (because I like military stuff and RPGs). But I probably wouldn't have bought it after reading the backstory. It can make or break a game, especially if its the consumers first exposure to the thing.

I will not comment on this, save to say that my previous comments (including my frustration with the line of reasoning Rae describes) are a matter of public record for anyone who is very bored and wants to use the board's search function.

As to Savage Worlds, I know nothing about the system or setting so I can't comment on the validity of what Frank said.

Savage Worlds is a setting-free system that has had various settings published for it to be "powered by" it. I consider it a progressive, simplified evolution of the house system that originated with Deadlands and, IIRC, morphed into its Great Rail Wars minis spin-off. To me, it feels like a fast-paced skirmish-level miniatures game with the addition of roleplaying mechanics. It is a much lower level of complexity than any edition of Twilight: 20xx, and I don't think it offers the degree of tactical verisimilitude that most of the player base on this forum would prefer.

Having said that, I will confess that I've occasionally considered what a T2k powered by Fate would look like. The Diaspora (http://www.vsca.ca/Diaspora/) variation, in particular, has me thinking about a post-apocalyptic gaming experience that would be a lot less simulationist and a lot more story-driven. But I think just about everyone here would hate it.

- C.

[Olefin]

They didn't really ask him point-blank if he would ever create more original material for T2K, but my impression was that he's moved on. See my previous comment about his idea about mating the T2K setting to the Savage Worlds mechanics. That's as close as he got to suggesting that he would revisit T2K, and that was more of a "could have, would have, should have" type deal. And, at the risk of coming across as totally self-serving, there was this from Frank, back in May of 2010, regarding my Operation Proud Lion stuff:



I don't want to put words in Frank's mouth, but it doesn't sound like he's interested in reviving his unpublished Lions of Twilight materials.

Oh I know Raellus - and still working on my approach to it as well - but I can always hope that we could get one of the original authors to submit new work - it would be very very cool to see them back in action with new material.

Like seeing a musician come out of retirement to do another concert or see an actor pick up a character from long ago and bring new life to it (i.e. like Jeff Bridges did with Tron Legacy)

And by the way just to say it again - what you have put out is excellent work and very enjoyable. What I am doing is a different approach - but is just that - a different approach to the story.

And I see now what he means by medieval - the Thirty Years War in many ways is very much like the Twilight War especially in its effect on the areas where it was fought. It devastated whole areas, destroyed the local economies and set back that area for generations. And that war attracted mercenaries and soldiers from all over Europe - units were about as mixed up as could be.

I will listen to it - I hadnt checked out the link as I didnt know if it had been posted to YouTube or not -

[Tombot]

"Podcast on ground zero"; in this episode they talk about a certain rpg... having Frank Frey for an interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEALUr87_LQ&index=14&list=PLpXdLWOpzDuLkH8CAw-wag4RnxHLHvDK1

[Targan]

Excellent. I'll be checking this out when I get home.

[Raellus]

Someone came across this podcast and posted a link a few months back. I'll merge the threads when I get a chance.

[Targan]

Ah, ok. I think I've seen it already then.

[Olefin]

Well it took 22 years but hope Frank is happy that there is finally an official canon Kenya sourcebook for the game. Hope he gets a chance to read it soon.

[lordroel]

Well it took 22 years but hope Frank is happy that there is finally an official canon Kenya sourcebook for the game. Hope he gets a chance to read it soon.

22 Years, that is a long time.