M1 Tank Factory

[Cdnwolf]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G8uFVKmAj5o

[stormlion1]

Hmm, might be interesting to come up with a way to use these factorys in a scenario.

[Rainbow Six]

Hmm, might be interesting to come up with a way to use these factorys in a scenario.

IIRC there was a scenario published in a Challenge magazine that involved an M1 plant in Lima, Ohio (I haven't viewed the Youtube video so don't know if that's the plant in question). I can't recall the specifics - I think it might have involved the PC's having to recover some machinery or such like.

[Panther Al]

Yep, thats the second facility they talk about, Lima OH.

I like how the tanks that are refurbed in the background are the ones they was doing for the Aussies - complete with the Roo on the turret cheek.

[Targan]

IIRC there was a scenario published in a Challenge magazine that involved an M1 plant in Lima, Ohio (I haven't viewed the Youtube video so don't know if that's the plant in question). I can't recall the specifics - I think it might have involved the PC's having to recover some machinery or such like.

That Challenge Mag adventure has been discussed a number of times on this forum before. It's titled Lima Incident and it's in Challenge issue #56. Opening paragraph of the description:

*SPOILERS*

"The 112th Medical Division recently learned that 30 M-1 Abrams MBTs are sitting outside the former General Motors Lima Tank Plant in Lima, OH."

During one of the previous discussions about this scenario it was suggested (by Kato perhaps) that according to the canon strike lists, the Lima tank plant would likely have been within the zone of destruction caused by a nuke strike. However, given that GDW sanctioned a Challenge Mag adventure featuring the plant being intact, I treat it as being intact in my campaigns.

[kato13]

*SPOILERS*

During one of the previous discussions about this scenario it was suggested (by Kato perhaps) that according to the canon strike lists, the Lima tank plant would likely have been within the zone of destruction caused by a nuke strike. However, given that GDW sanctioned a Challenge Mag adventure featuring the plant being intact, I treat it as being intact in my campaigns.

Here is my post on the subject.
http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php?p=50174&postcount=10

As far as canon goes it ends up being vague on this subject. If the City was targeted, the Plant would be in a medium destructive zone. If the local refinery was targeted (as canon often suggests is the motivation for a strike), it would not be damaged. Of course with CEPs of Russian missiles often being measured in miles, you could really put the strike just about anywhere.


Update. The refinery seems to be right on top of the Plant so if you want it to survive the MIRV (assumed?) needs to deviate.

[Cdnwolf]

The oil refinery and the Tank plant are right next door to each other so I think it may be slightly melted in a nuclear explosion.

[kato13]

Thanks Cdnwolf. In my post I was not exactly sure where the refinery was.

Edit. Looks like northeast and southwest caught my error in the prior thread but I only remembered making the pictures of the map.
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=50181#post50181

Apparently the Challenge article also confuses northeast and southwest when referencing where the plant is, so again even with canon information there is still wiggle room.

[schnickelfritz]

I believe the premise of the survival of the Lima Tank Plant in Lima Incident was that the warhead targeted on the Plant missed and/or fizzled. I'm going off of memory...I have it upstairs but I'm a little too worn out to get out of my chair now.

There was some damage, but the plant was largely intact and the tooling in a clean/cold state.

The "30" M1A1's were actually 3, only one of which had been fitted with the 120mm and bore sighted. Two more were waiting for installation and bore sighting. Your job was to recon, hold off the gangs/convicts, and call for a convoy of HET's.

It was kind of neat to see the details of the surrounding area...I think there were several OH NG units in the area armed with a scattering of M42 Dusters.

I did some work on a part for Cummins engine years ago and the part was delivered to a subsidiary in the Lima area. We drove through Lima, and right past the plant. I remember telling my coworkers that there was no way that place would be standing if it all went Nuclear. It was a little chilling.....I could hear the sirens in my head. A coworker was a Cold War aficionado and we just looked at each other and shivered.

-Dave

[Cdnwolf]

Could make the tanks be sitting on a railroad car on a siding just outside of town that escape the most of the damage.

[Webstral]

It seems to me that the tools would be far more valuable than tanks. It would be handy to have someone who knows how to use the tools, of course. Honestly, I think a convoy making the effort to get to Lima and carry off anything weighing 60 tons would be better served to take selected items from the machine shops and assembly lines than a actual M1.

[Targan]

It seems to me that the tools would be far more valuable than tanks. It would be handy to have someone who knows how to use the tools, of course. Honestly, I think a convoy making the effort to get to Lima and carry off anything weighing 60 tons would be better served to take selected items from the machine shops and assembly lines than a actual M1.

You're absolutely correct. And that's exactly what it says in the mini-module.

*SPOILERS*

Page 9, "Findings" section:

"The 30 M-1s reported turn out to be three operational M-1s, and only one has complete armament.
If the PCs check inside the plant carefully (the tanks are parked out back) they will find that the building has hardly been touched by vandals. The tools and dies are more valuable than the tanks themselves, as they could be used to make more tanks."

[stormlion1]

Make more tanks? Well somewhat true, the ability to produce some the equipment certainly but a complete modern tank should be pretty much impossible. Unless you want to make something along the line of a World War 1 era tank that is.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I watched a documentary recently (I think it was originally linked to here in the forums) tank "building" "tools and dies" are multiple-ton, specialty machines, many of them computer controlled CNC machines. Nobody's going to build another tank factory. Not for multiple decades, not with a country with barely twenty million people left in it, who are starving, beset by plague, cut off by completely destroyed infrastructure, scattered across 4 million square miles with no remaining central gov't outside of a few enclaves and the gov't that's left is in a three-way de-facto civil war (all canon, btw.)

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Make more tanks? Well somewhat true, the ability to produce some the equipment certainly but a complete modern tank should be pretty much impossible. Unless you want to make something along the line of a World War 1 era tank that is.

A pickup truck outfitted with phone books and cut-down dumpsters as armor with a couple of retired NG guys armed with LAW rockets is more like what you'd have for "tanks".

[stormlion1]

Actually I was thinking construction equipment with bolted on armor and a scavenged gun of some type. The kicker is the frame, that big piece they sandblast in the video. Everything, and I mean everything bolts into that. Without that piece all the parts are just so many parts.

[Targan]

Make more tanks? Well somewhat true, the ability to produce some the equipment certainly but a complete modern tank should be pretty much impossible. Unless you want to make something along the line of a World War 1 era tank that is.

Agreed, manufacturing complete modern MBTs isn't going to happen for a long time. Parts though, that's not out of the question. The ability to manufacture replacement parts to keep existing MBTs running would be invaluable for MilGov or CivGov.

[Adm.Lee]

So, who makes the treads and the big turbine engines, and where are they?

[rcaf_777]

So, who makes the treads and the big turbine engines, and where are they?

Up untill 1996 M1A1 Tanks were made at the Lima Army Tank Plant in Lima Ohio, with some systems made at the Detroit Arsenal Tank Plant, after 1996 everthing was done at the Lima Army Tank Plant.

According to Wikipedia the plant output of M1A1's is 120 per month.

I am guessing with the war is full swing that tank production would done at many diffrent locations and maybe even by other companies.

To answer your question: The Engines are made at Stratford Army Engine Plant in Stratford, Connecticut and Anniston Army Depot in Bynum, Alabama. The main gun is made at Watervliet Arsenal in Watervliet NY.

I am wondering why the Soviet would waste a nuke on the Lima Plant given that the tank production is spread over many locations, not to meation the fact that every M1A1 has to be shipped to Europe by sea so destorying seaports and attacking shipping could achive the same results and give them nuke for another traget.

[stormlion1]

Striking at the plants is one scenario, the other is striking at rail lines and shipping ports. Once those are destroyed the Lima Plant and any other plant are out of luck as they can't move or embark anything to Europe or Asia. You can only move so much by truck as well and if the citys are hit than all movement comes to a standstill even if the factorys producing tanks, trucks, guns, or even boots are left untouched.

[Olefin]

Actually having that line intact could produce a lot of tanks for you. I worked at United Defense in York -and back in the 90's they definitely did not have a just in time delivery system - even now we have a lot of inventory. At one time we had over 100 vehicle sets of tracks for the M88, along with three dozen engines and fifty M88A1 hulls plus the armor for them sitting in the warehouses and out back and that was in 2009 with a just in time system.

You could easily, during a war, have enouigh material on hand to keep the place going for literally months after a strike.

So could the Lima plant, with the line intact and no damage to the warehouses and storage areas, be a potential source of a lot of tanks if they can get it up and running again - the answer is yes. Possibly even as many as a full months to two months worth of production - especially if the plant stopped dead right after the strike with it building at full power for the war.

I know when we were doing 120 Bradleys a month we had at least six weeks worth of guns on hand. Our big problem was engines - but remember during a war the government could take priority on engine delivery from the suppliers versus the civilian market - and the war went on long enough to shift production to get more of them made each month.

[Olefin]

Went out and downloaded Challenge 56 and the Lima Incident article

interesting in many ways:

it says that three M1 tanks are operational but only one has its full main armament - however you cant have a tank operational without mounting the turret and the cannon - not sure on the assembly process there and when the barrel goes on and where the boresighting process occurs - you can actually do it on the line - we bore sighted M109's at York on the production line and then did a second check after final assembly

it mentions Marysville but not the Honda plant there - which would be a huge asset for anyone trying to rebuild - lots of equipment there and they made motorcyles and cars there

it has a detachment of the 194th in Defiance Ohio - that unit is at Robinson and Cairo IL - both of which are a long long way from Defiance - basically you have to cross all of Indiana to get there - that implies that the unit is much bigger than mentioned in Howling Wildnerness to be nosing around in Ohio -i.e. they would have to be doing patrols all thru IL and IN just to get there

as the crow flies Cairo to Robinson is 159 miles and Robinson to Defiance is 238 miles - so thats an awfully big patrol area - could see why the Fort Defiance guys have been waiting

oh and one other observation - even if you take HW as canon the 194th would have a hell of a lot of gas to use for their vehicles

Robinson Refinery had a production cap of 212,000 barrels of oil per day - even at 1% they could produce 88,266 liters of gasoline per day (2120 barrels per day x 11 gallons of gas per barrel x 3.785 liters per gallon)

if the cracker is still on line, even at 1% you are talking about 168508 liters per day - thats a heck of a lot of gasoline for their vehicles even if they only make gas one or two days a week and make lube oil or diesel the rest

and if the cracker is online then you are talking avgas as well - so possibly helos for them in operation or aircraft

[Adm.Lee]

Small sidebar: Paul Riegel, who wrote the two Ohio-based Challenge articles, lived around central Ohio at the time those were written. I remember his name from two local gaming clubs, but I cannot recall his face. I have no idea where he is now.

[Olefin]

By the way guys just for your information I know the Ohio area well also

lived in Marysville Ohio from June 1995 to March 2000 - so if the war had started for real that is where I would have been during the actual timeline

was an engineer for Honda and went to several of the towns listed in the module on a regular basis

two of my three kids were born at the Union County Hospital in Marysville

[unkated]

I watched a documentary recently (I think it was originally linked to here in the forums) tank "building" "tools and dies" are multiple-ton, specialty machines, many of them computer controlled CNC machines. Nobody's going to build another tank factory. Not for multiple decades, not with a country with barely twenty million people left in it, who are starving, beset by plague, cut off by completely destroyed infrastructure, scattered across 4 million square miles with no remaining central gov't outside of a few enclaves and the gov't that's left is in a three-way de-facto civil war (all canon, btw.)

Hmmm. Less computer control and fewer hi-tech components 20 years ago.

Build an M1A2? Nope, probably not.

Adapt the technology and make something simpler like a WW2 Sherman or Pershing? Especially using existing components like engines? Yep.

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

Or go for the tank destroyer concept like the US and Germans used during WWII - much easier to build and still packs the punch of a tank and the mobility of a tank

and even with EMP damage keep in mind that the tech to build WWI style tanks would be very easy to reinvigorate

and a WWI style tank against pure infantry (your typical marauder force) that only have machine guns and rifles is a very effective tank indeed

[James Langham2]

Hmmm, it's interesting that the tanks are M1A1s - I am writing up an article on the M1A2 - from the numbers listed with units it was obviously manufactured in quantity. Any ideas - currently I am considering another factory making the M1A2 (or at least the turret) with the Lima plant continuing production of the M1A1 so as not to delay new tanks by retooling.

[unkated]

Hmmm, it's interesting that the tanks are M1A1s - I am writing up an article on the M1A2 - from the numbers listed with units it was obviously manufactured in quantity.

The real one or the goose-neck monstrosity form the game?

Any ideas - currently I am considering another factory making the M1A2 (or at least the turret) with the Lima plant continuing production of the M1A1 so as not to delay new tanks by retooling.

Worth noting - the 120mm tank gun itself is manufactured at the Watervliet Arsenal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watervliet_Arsenal) in New York State across the river from Troy, some 5 miles north of Albany. And not near any nuke targets (according to the official target list).

Uncle Ted

[pmulcahy11b]

The real one or the goose-neck monstrosity form the game?

I just renamed this one the M-1A3 and moved it to the Best Tanks that Never Were page. It was a real developmental model, though they only built one prototype with a non-functioning gun.

[Olefin]

One thing to keep in mind about a lot of defense factories is that, especially during wartime and pre-just in time delivery practices that went into effect in the mid 2000's, there would be significant stock of parts on hand at any one time - probably enough for the completion of as many as 20-40 tanks if not more if the factory can get power

thats a significant force for sure - especially for CivGov and New America who hardly have any real tanks

Thats why I have the plant in York that makes the Bradley, M88, AGS and M109 as being reactivated once the 28th got home from Omega to provide security and get power back up to the plant, using stocked up parts to complete what they can of the vehicles that were in the pipeline when the factory was shut down

[Raellus]

I stumbled across this article about M1 upgrades and new production yesterday and some GMs might want to incorporate some of this information, even though it strays from the departure point in the alternative history timeline of T2K.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-worlds-best-tank-has-the-longest-designation-ad84830a2988

As you can see, there may very soon be an RL M1A3.

[Olefin]

One other interesting fact about the M1 factory Challenge Magazine article was that the authors didnt mention that BMY had a factory in Marysville Ohio that was producing military trucks (mid-1994) and civilian buses until June 1995 - in V1 there wouldnt have been a drawn down in the military so that plant would have still been open - and in V2 such a recently closed plant could have easily been brought back online if they hadnt moved the equipment yet - which given the closeness of the war start means it would have been back in production for the war

Pretty good asset to have for anyone who has trucks and buses and wants to keep them in operation - i.e. lots of spare parts, tools, etc. at that kind of plant

the plant made both Wayne Wheeled Vehicle buses - the Lifestar and Lifeguard line and the BMY M939A2 (1987-1994) - so that plant would definitely be an asset for CivGov if they can get it back into operation or even use it as a depot site for repairing trucks and buses

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Nice :)
Another example of why forums like this are so useful - for those of us not from that part of the world, this level of local knowledge can really flesh out those areas and even provide material for adventures.
One other interesting fact about the M1 factory Challenge Magazine article was that the authors didnt mention that BMY had a factory in Marysville Ohio that was producing military trucks (mid-1994) and civilian buses until June 1995 - in V1 there wouldnt have been a drawn down in the military so that plant would have still been open - and in V2 such a recently closed plant could have easily been brought back online if they hadnt moved the equipment yet - which given the closeness of the war start means it would have been back in production for the war

Pretty good asset to have for anyone who has trucks and buses and wants to keep them in operation - i.e. lots of spare parts, tools, etc. at that kind of plant

the plant made both Wayne Wheeled Vehicle buses - the Lifestar and Lifeguard line and the BMY M939A2 (1987-1994) - so that plant would definitely be an asset for CivGov if they can get it back into operation or even use it as a depot site for repairing trucks and buses