To Fortify? That is the question...

[kalos72]

So as the story develops in South Texas in my game, the questions has come up about the need for every major settlement to have a rubble/dirt mound wall around it for protection.

My game has the III Corps landing back in Texas to rebuild...has secured 2-3 counties and it trying to secure the major settlements. They are training local militias for the day to day security of each settlement.

So for say Victoria, population limited to about 10k maybe (population limits for major settlements still being discussed) and digging a "moat" at a 5 square mile perimeter an making a wall out of the excavated earth and then using that as city limits and patrolled by the militia.

Now if the SHTF there is local military support but for the small stuff, the militia would need to handle.

The thinking here is:
1. Keeps unregistered people (non-citizens) from just sneaking into the city
2. It limits the population some by the physical boundary set by the wall. The society is mostly agrarian, they HAVE to be able to support themselves locally.
3. Helps with general security of the city

But I imagine digging a 5 square mile moat and then creating a suitable wall out of it, around each County Seat...maybe a 2 sqm around every city would take alot of work.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

If they come back with CEVs or M88s they could raid local highways (and state DOT facilities) for stacks of Jersey Barriers to build a concrete rampart around a settlement. I mean, it could be done with other vehicles too assuming they could get them working. It might be an easier option than a lot of manual digging - that's going to burn precious calories for both citizens and soldiers...

[kalos72]

Let's assume heavy equipment / vehicles and fuel are not an issue...

I am just not sure its worth it really, with an active and vigilant police force and militia, not sure the value is there for al the effort.

But I do like the idea of the towns being able to defend themselves from marauders should they get past the active military patrols on the outskirts of each County.

[Badbru]

So as the story develops in South Texas in my game, the questions has come up about the need for every major settlement to have a rubble/dirt mound wall around it for protection.

You need to go back in history quite a bit to find a time when settlements of any size had/needed a wall around it for protection. Pre gunpowder history even.


My game has the III Corps landing back in Texas to rebuild...has secured 2-3 counties and it trying to secure the major settlements. They are training local militias for the day to day security of each settlement.

When you say "has secured 2-3 counties" that's a past tense statement. You allready consider 2-3 whole counties "secured" do these, or even just the settlements in them, have defensives motes and berms? I'm thinking not, so...


So for say Victoria, population limited to about 10k maybe (population limits for major settlements still being discussed) and digging a "moat" at a 5 square mile perimeter an making a wall out of the excavated earth and then using that as city limits and patrolled by the militia.

Ten thousand people per 5 square miles sounds like a pretty high population density to me. I admit I'm not that informed on population densities but I doubt you could put that many people inside a 5 square mile perimeter AND have them self sustaining on other land within that perimeter so that kinda rules out point two.


The thinking here is:
1. Keeps unregistered people (non-citizens) from just sneaking into the city

Any well patrolled fence will do that.



2. It limits the population some by the physical boundary set by the wall. The society is mostly agrarian, they HAVE to be able to support themselves locally.
See above but there are other easier ways to controll the numbers of population and population will be dictated more by the viability of the land for food crops production than any local defense earthen works.



3. Helps with general security of the city

Yeah it may well do, but I saw the last five minutes of a TV show about Chinas' Great Wall, and guess what, it didn't actually keep people out. At one point a gate was opened for the Monghol army.


But I imagine digging a 5 square mile moat and then creating a suitable wall out of it, around each County Seat...maybe a 2 sqm around every city would take alot of work.

I see my response as a bit harsh but I'm with Raketenjagdpanzer on this one. Even with equipment and machinery that's going to be a major undertaking taking valuable man hours and resources perhaps better spent, if they have that engineering machinery, rebuilding roads, or the other recent hot topic, Railways.

Defensive hardpoints with elevated observation towers spaced every 600 meters or so around a fenced perimeter with some clear fields of fire will be more than adequate defense for your town because you really don't want to be facing any threat to ten thousand people right on those ten thousand peoples doorsteps anyway. Where is your defence in depth?

[kalos72]

Victoria for example...

110k over 33 square miles - so 10k over 5 doesnt seem off - but I could be wrong. I cant really find a real world example or even anything in game for perspective.

Yes, 2 full counties and Galveston County are fully under III Corps control by the end of the year 2000.

Where do you "find" 5 square miles of fence exactly...I guess you could make a "living fence" but thats years in the making.

Anyone have anything on the defensive works in Irag/Afghanistan maybe?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

A lot of your material can come from demolished houses. Bulldoze up some buildings and you've got a workable rampart. Of course, speaking of buildings, fence between them and you now have a series of strongpoints connected by a defensive wall...

By example, part of my problem with the vision of Central Florida is that we're all basically suburbs here around a pretty porous city. Defending against a serious invasion here would be difficult. We have some natural barriers in places like swamps, but on the overall it's not a great area to try and defend. Mostly it's flat and covered with very convenient roads.

Trying to build a wall around Orlando, even one with a population of "only" 30000-50000 clustered near the middle of the city, would be a years-long undertaking requiring resources and people on an unprecedented scale, and huge I mean huge amounts of fuel for trucks to move material because honestly you're talking about millions upon millions of tons of earth, concrete and timbers. Even if optimistically you say 25% of your population can be part of the workforce and would be willing to be, without at least a few front end loaders and dump trucks working, circling an area like (again, for example) downtown orlando with a defensive wall of any consequence would be basically impossible to do in any practical length of time. Going by hand, by the time you got it finished you'd have the government back in control of the situation and it would be superfluous.

NOW WITH THAT SAID...

If you're talking about a small town, or a subdivision? Yeah, that's do-able! Heck, I look at the gated communities around here with their "ornamental" brick walls that surround them and access control points and think: yeah, that's DEFINITELY a good start! Some of them I see around here, you could top the walls with concertina and beef up the access gates and BAM - instant Keep!

Then, if you've got the fuel, you use your vehicles for "thunder runs" making sure each community is well supplied. Plus you could build up a comm network between them. Set, say, a mortar team locally to each neighborhood, and pre-plot some fire, then you train the local PD on how to call it in, give them a simplified map, overlap those mortar areas for mutual support...that's how I'd do it. Small walls, but a good support network.

[kalos72]

But why go through all that extra effort?

Excavate an area and pile the excavated material on the inside of the "moat". Now you have a moat and wall, needing some work obviously but the vast majority of a wall system is taken care of right from the site.

Give a couple of bulldozers and some diggers a few days and I am sure they can get the basics done a couple miles a day. No?

I would prefer just chain link and elevated guard towers but that unrealistic on the scale I am looking at.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

But why go through all that extra effort?

Excavate an area and pile the excavated material on the inside of the "moat". Now you have a moat and wall, needing some work obviously but the vast majority of a wall system is taken care of right from the site.

Give a couple of bulldozers and some diggers a few days and I am sure they can get the basics done a couple miles a day. No?

I would prefer just chain link and elevated guard towers but that unrealistic on the scale I am looking at.

Why is the chain-link and guard towers unrealistic?

You can put "nests" on top of now no-longer-used power poles in neighborhoods, there's your towers...as to chain link fencing, remember, most good sized urban areas now have almost completely abandoned hardware stores and depending on the area they're likely to have LOTS Of chain-link fencing. Some can be acquired from other places (around school playgrounds, tennis courts, etc.). I think chainlink fencing is more plausible than ramparts, tbh!

[kalos72]

I am thinking of 5 square miles...per County Seat. Two square miles for everything else...

That seems like alot to "salvage" from old warehouse and such...look at Victoria TX for example. I am not seeing alot of chain link on Google Earth, although it can be hard to see I know.

If the consensus is that it shouldn't be a problem...then that solves most of my problem. :)

I tend to be too realistic in my games...so if I cant figure it out in real life then I usually dont let it go in game.

[kalos72]

Perhaps a better solution would be this:

Setup a firebase (vietnam style) for the garrison and then just have multiple "guard posts" through out the city proper to check papers and at the roads into town maybe?

Wouldn't help with any sort of assault/attack however...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I am thinking of 5 square miles...per County Seat. Two square miles for everything else...

That seems like alot to "salvage" from old warehouse and such...look at Victoria TX for example. I am not seeing alot of chain link on Google Earth, although it can be hard to see I know.

If the consensus is that it shouldn't be a problem...then that solves most of my problem. :)

I tend to be too realistic in my games...so if I cant figure it out in real life then I usually dont let it go in game.

Honestly, if a garrison is willing to accept some lower Chain link fencing of the "domestic" type (e.g., back yard fencing) I don't see why not.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Perhaps a better solution would be this:

Setup a firebase (vietnam style) for the garrison and then just have multiple "guard posts" through out the city proper to check papers and at the roads into town maybe?

Wouldn't help with any sort of assault/attack however...

That might be the better bet. Declaring the national emergency and asking (that is, ordering) people to relocate closer to the firebase, then in the event of a serious emergency response time to threatened locals can be quicker or, if need be, they can enter the protective perimeter of the base faster.

[kato13]

A few points.


1) Ground excavation in Texas is more difficult than in the rest of the country. Under the initial soil layer you have generally either limestone or clay. Limestone is hard to dig and the Texas clay reacts between the water table and the dry air, this leads to shifting and cracking. This is why basements are rare in Texas.

So you either have more effort up front (limestone) or a lot more maintenance (clay) when compared to other areas of the country.

Once you remove the topsoil you have to deal with this.
http://www.geo.hunter.cuny.edu/tbw/soils.veg/lecture.outlines/soils.chap.14/soil.taxonomy/vertisols/vertisol.Utah.surface.cracks.jpg



2) Generally large defensive fortifications not successful.

If you look through history unless you have a high troop density covering the fortification, weak spots will be found and at best you can hope that the defensive structures either channel them in some way or slow the enemy in retreat.

I would make small fortifications to allow for the people to hold up until that cavalry arrives (or day breaks) and use the rest of the earth moving resources to improve the farms.






3) There is a reason barbed wire was invented for and used so extensively in the American West. It is cheap, uses minimum resources, and can cover vast distances.

With very basic equipment it can also be used to relay phone signals.
http://www.geek.com/news/good-old-days-rural-telephone-network-was-built-using-barbed-wire-fences-1534417/

[CDAT]

I know several combat engineers who ran D-7 dozers and doing five miles of earth berm not a problem talking with them not even that long to do week or two. In my first deployment to Iraq in 03 we showed up and were told that this plot of land was going to be our base camp for the next little bit, our engineers had dozers and SEE trucks, with in two days we had all the trees, weeds and such dozed down had a berm around the “base” and by weeks end had wire up around as well.

[stormlion1]

Shipping Containers might be an option. Take them and fill them with dirt and rubble and you have an instant wall that can stop small arms fire. Relatively lightweight to move when empty and heavy as sin when full. Plus they can be stacked to form higher walls (I'd bolt them together for added strength) or have a container placed on the inside of the wall to use for storage or with some work as barracks.

[Raellus]

I prefer a dry moat/berm wall over fencing. A chain-link fence is not much of a barrier. It's really not much more than symbolic. A station wagon could plow right through it; it wouldn't trouble a small team with wire cutters much either. Unless it was well covered by fire, it's not going to stop any but the lazy and least determined.

In general, human-power is going to be the primary means of excavating/earth moving in a T2K environment. If it means protection from existential threats, most local citizens would be willing to contribute to some sort of defense works project. This is really the basis of the neo-feudalism that I anticipate would be prevalent in a T2K world. You wouldn't even necessarily need motorized excavating equipment- just picks and shovels- I'm sure you've seen pics of Soviet babushkas digging AT ditches on the approaches to Moscow. A motorized excavator would be a luxury that many communities would not have. Those that did, however, would be able to complete defense works projects much more quickly efficiently. Such equipment could serve as a form of currency in a T2KU and securing said excavators could make a side quest for a community-building campaign.

Another option for creating walls/barricades is derelict motor vehicles. Tow or push them into position for a simple barrier. If one had to the means to stack them, you could create a more effective obstacle.

You might want to consider a hybrid with a little of every method mentioned so far. Chain link facing the marsh, a moat/berm along the most approachable part of the perimeter, wrecked cars for half-a-mile on another side, and a couple of shipping container redoubts with guard towers at intervals all along the perimeter.

[WallShadow]

With all this discussion of chain link, what has not been mentioned is using the chain link as gabion material--forming baskets out of the fencing, lining the baskets with say, old carpet, and filling the lined baskets with rubble to form building blocks of a fortification. Use a tripod lever arm to maneuver the baskets into place and Voila! a rubble/gravel wall.

[rcaf_777]

Like a poor man's Hesco bastion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesco_bastion

Could also use Gabion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabion

Or Sandbags

[kalos72]

All good information...

But would YOU put some sort of physical wall/obstacle around the entire outside of your towns if able? Thinking along the 25 miles long mark....

The 43rd MP did...:)

[CDAT]

All good information...

But would YOU put some sort of physical wall/obstacle around the entire outside of your towns if able? Thinking along the 25 miles long mark....

The 43rd MP did...:)

If I had the ability, in a post disaster world? YES!

[kato13]

According to this

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/5-102/Ch6.htm#s3

a trench 40233.6 Meters (25 miles) by 1.5 meters by 3.5 meters would take 2 M9 ACE 603.504 hours to complete.

Since the formulas are for anti tank ditches I would assume that number would go higher if you are on anything other than smooth ground.

Base fuel usage for the M9 (109 per period*), two of them working for 603.5 hours would be ~32891 liters of diesel.

* Source: http://www.pmulcahy.com/tracked_engineer_vehicles/us_tev.htm

[kalos72]

Without giving up too much data...

32k diesel is roughly one days production at this point in the story line...I am ok with that.

The next questions is manpower.

What good is a fence that isnt patrolled or monitored?

Assume a guard tower every 500-1000 meters over 25 miles would be 40-80 towers. Two people per tower at all times? Thats like 100-150 people per shift...3-4-5 shifts? And that will not count active patrols within the perimeter or at guard posts/gate guards and such.

Ouch.

[weswood]

I don't know about Victoria, but a lot of major cities have a "loop" freeway around the central city. Houston has Loop 610, San Antonio has the 410 Loop, and if I remember New Orleans has one also.

If the town in question has a loop, block off on/off ramps, clear the loop itself for patrol vehicles. A few checkpoints/entrances at underpasses.

[weswood]

I don't know about Victoria, but a lot of major cities have a "loop" freeway around the central city. Houston has Loop 610, San Antonio has the 410 Loop, and if I remember New Orleans has one also.

If the town in question has a loop, block off on/off ramps, clear the loop itself for patrol vehicles. A few checkpoints/entrances at underpasses.

[stormlion1]

All true, but citys will be death traps so fortifying them is just a slow wait for the food to run out. Fortifying a town in the countryside is easier especially if the terrain helps or you control the roads and the fields. Fortify the town itself and set up manned roadblocks and near any power stations or food producing areas set up a firebase to respond if there is trouble. That and patrols, lots of patrols. Might be easier than digging the ditch from heck and putting up a wall and then having to man it.

[Brother in Arms]

I had a game once were a cantonment had a earthen work wall ( not actual facines and gabbions but hulks of cars and the like covered in earth and turf) that was topped by a dry stacked stone wall.

The citizens of the Canton would punish those convicted of crimes to mend the wall. In some lesser cases ( like a character getting drunk and fighting) they were sentenced to this hard labor for a period of time (several weeks)and then they reintegrated into society they were given slight rations but unlimited water. However serious criminals like thieves,rapist, murderers were sentencing more harshly. Like when a group of marauders tried to infiltrate the wall and failed. Foolishly they surrendered and were caught by the citizen of the canton. These unfortunate souls were sentenced to build the wall till death. So they were forced to do hard labor staking stones until they dropped dead from starvation. They were given plenty of water to drink but never given food. Several tried to injure themselves so they couldn't stack stones and if that happened or they got too weak from starvation they were beaten to death by the cantons security force and there body over the wall.

in other instances the wall was used when refugees came from the outside and wanted to become a citizen of the canton. They were sentenced to mend the wall for a period of time and earned there food and water by stacking stones, as well as extracting the stones from fields. After a period of this labor they earned there citizen ship. If for some reason you couldn't work on the wall you may be sentenced to work in another form of labor. One instance I remember in particular were a soldier had a consensual encounter with a young woman, but she got pregnant and her parents did not approve. He was sentenced to mend the wall and then was forced to leave the canton. But she was sentenced to work in a hemp field until the day she gave birth.

Brother in Arms

[stormlion1]

I had a game once were a cantonment had a earthen work wall ( not actual facines and gabbions but hulks of cars and the like covered in earth and turf) that was topped by a dry staked stone wall.

The citizens of the Canton would punish those convicted of crimes to mend the wall. In some lesser cases ( like a character getting drunk and fighting) they were sentenced to this hard labor for a period of time (several weeks)and then they reintegrated into society they were given slight rations but unlimited water. However serious criminals like thieves,rapist, murderers were sentencing more harshly. Like when a group of marauders tried to infiltrate the wall and failed. Foolishly they surrendered and were caught by the citizen of the canton. These unfortunate souls were sentenced to build the wall till death. So they were forced to do hard labor staking stones until they dropped dead from starvation. They were given plenty of water to drink but never given food. Several tried to injure themselves so they couldn't stack stones and if that happened or they got too weak from starvation they were beaten to death by the cantons security force and there body over the wall.

in other instances the wall was used when refugees came from the outside and wanted to become a citizen of the canton. They were sentenced to mend the wall for a period of time and earned there food and water by stacking stones, as well as extracting the stones from fields. After a period of this labor they earned there citizen ship. If for some reason you couldn't work on the wall you may be sentenced to work in another form of labor. One instance I remember in particular were a soldier had a consensual encounter with a young woman, but she got pregnant and her parents did not approve. He was sentenced to mend the wall and then was forced to leave the canton. But she was sentenced to work in a hemp field until the day she gave birth.

Brother in Arms

I have to ask, where was this Canton located?

[Brother in Arms]

The Canton was located in Northern New Hampshire in Clarksville. And it was on the sight on an old hippy commune that had been in existence from 1970-till about 1999. The location is real, but I know nothing about the commune other than it had a large yellow farm house and a giant wreath made of fir boughs in the shape of a peace sign. It had been there so long it had long turned orange and there were tons of derelict vehicles (like a old dodge power wagon and a turquoise Toyota land cruiser). There were always lots of long haired barefoot children playing in the yard and a rather large contingent of women varying in age from there early teens to 20 and 30 somethings along with a few as old as there late 50's. They had organic fields and various types of out door and primitive conveniences.

Seemed like a logical place for a canton to exist.

Brother in Arms

[stormlion1]

Just curious. The mention of rocks (I live in Jersey, no rocks) and hemp fields caught my attention.

[Brother in Arms]

You can pretty much grow hemp in any climate. In the game it was being grown primarily for hemp seed from which to make hemp seed oil which was used for food and fuel. Secondarily it was being grown to make rope and fabric which was fairly back breaking work.

There was also a sector of the field that specifically for Marijuana and it proved to be a very valuable trade item.

Brother in Arms

[stormlion1]

I generally make scenario's up with my own home terrain in mind but sometimes its good to get an idea what would be doable in a different set of terrain and factors. For me the soil is both sandy and good for some types of farming like Corn, Tomato's and Potato's and with some work, Blueberries and lots and lots of Pine for firewood and building. Even plenty of deer out there to hunt as well as other small game. Snowfall isn't really an issue but flooding? Yeah a definite issue as the water table is pretty close to the surface. Take a shovel and dig down a foot and it will fill with water slowly but surely. So even dropping a well in the ground is a relatively easy task.

[robert.munsey]

That is if those M9 ACE hydraulic hoses would stay in operation.....

According to this

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/5-102/Ch6.htm#s3

a trench 40233.6 Meters (25 miles) by 1.5 meters by 3.5 meters would take 2 M9 ACE 603.504 hours to complete.

Since the formulas are for anti tank ditches I would assume that number would go higher if you are on anything other than smooth ground.

Base fuel usage for the M9 (109 per period*), two of them working for 603.5 hours would be ~32891 liters of diesel.

* Source: http://www.pmulcahy.com/tracked_engineer_vehicles/us_tev.htm

[robert.munsey]

You would not have to. Everyone here is forgetting what we did in Baghdad in 2007, we fenced the whole entire thing off with Alaska Barriers, and sub divided the city to keep them from killing each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Baghdad_crackdown


In this case you would make the walls large and then you would not have to have a large set of guard towers.

Now the wall versus someone attempting to get through. The basic line is that they will always get through, it just takes effort, will and patience.
However you take in the force (police or internal intelligence) that monitors the actions of the people. They will know if someone new comes in. People usually do. They know the new ones in the neighborhood and who does not belong. So you do not necessarily have to wall off the city, just make it hard to get in and once you are in, well you are an outsider....and outsiders are not well liked in a T2K setting. They are most of the time viewed as a threat.

Now what most people forget on the old wall and siege warfare in the capability of the force inside has the capacity to counter attack. If the force inside the wall looses the capacity to 'sally forth' and counter attack. then this is where things go downhill for those inside the wall.

Also my vote is for walls as they are much easier to build then a dry moat. Like the others have pointed out, first it could be debris, then hesco/gambons, then maybe cement walls.

Also think defense in depth and a reaction force. If the initial barrier is a series of little walls (belts) then this also allows the counter attack force time to react and plan.

Just my two cents
v/r
Muns


Without giving up too much data...

32k diesel is roughly one days production at this point in the story line...I am ok with that.

The next questions is manpower.

What good is a fence that isnt patrolled or monitored?

Assume a guard tower every 500-1000 meters over 25 miles would be 40-80 towers. Two people per tower at all times? Thats like 100-150 people per shift...3-4-5 shifts? And that will not count active patrols within the perimeter or at guard posts/gate guards and such.

Ouch.