Cooperville Part I:

[.45cultist]

My community is making the following, a 147gr. subsonic 9X19MM( E-Factor 8), 200gr. hollow point and fmj .45ACP(E-Factor 9, real world XTP and Speer Lawman @ 1000fps), and a pointed copper jacketed 173gr. zinc alloy metal piercing (E-Factor 10 real world Remington-Peter's Hi Way Master), lead practice 185gr. @ 750fps. The metal piercing round is a restricted trade item. The M1911A1's are "New" Mk IV Series 70 with the larger sights, the metal is similar to the post WWII commercial Colts(AKA the "Hard Colts"). AR15's and newer AR10's that share 60% of their parts are also manufactured. Limited vehicle manufacturing is on an irregular basis.

[mikeo80]

Is this in a game scenario or real life?

Because if this is game based, I have some SERIOUS questions.

My $0.02

Mike

[.45cultist]

It's based on real items, but is an exercise in learning the new rules. Which have rules for what industry a community has. It would also be a possible link to Warlock's Wildcards. But one learns form possible mistakes. I'm trying to put almost modern communities to aid the project, and I'm using some of my T2K2 items along with the Survivor's weapon table. I'm going to correct whatever doesn't fit. It may even make more sense if I hadn't jumped around.
I believe that the Hi Way Master is a very expensive collectable and I'm not sure if it has the same legal hang ups like KTW does.

[ArmySGT.]

My community is making the following, a 147gr. subsonic 9X19MM( E-Factor 8), 200gr. hollow point and fmj .45ACP(E-Factor 9, real world XTP and Speer Lawman @ 1000fps), and a pointed copper jacketed 173gr. zinc alloy metal piercing (E-Factor 10 real world Remington-Peter's Hi Way Master), lead practice 185gr. @ 750fps. The metal piercing round is a restricted trade item. The M1911A1's are "New" Mk IV Series 70 with the larger sights, the metal is similar to the post WWII commercial Colts(AKA the "Hard Colts"). AR15's and newer AR10's that share 60% of their parts are also manufactured. Limited vehicle manufacturing is on an irregular basis.

To manufacture these you need metal cutting lathes, knee mills, horizontal mills, and a foundry.

Then you need trained draftsmen, a metallurgist, and machinists capable of trigonometry.

Not to mention an industrial base that can furnish lubricants, solvent, and tool bits of atleast high speed steel.

If you have all that............ Then it is post recovery.

[.45cultist]

Yes, but there are rules for industry in the new rules, so I'm bundling items I had in third edition and trying to see what's required. The third edition kind of hand waved this area.

[ArmySGT.]

Yes, but there are rules for industry in the new rules, so I'm bundling items I had in third edition and trying to see what's required. The third edition kind of hand waved this area.

Third edition does have broad generalizations for A, B, C, D, E tech levels. Then a chart for determining tech level of an unknown encounter. Most common are the least being D or E and really rare to meet A. Only the Frozen Chosen, Snake Eaters, and other Morrow personnel were A tech level if I remember correctly.

I don't have a copy of 4E for myself yet.

[Gelrir]

Groups with explicitly "Tech Level A" in the Third Edition:


Snake Eaters - that's what they had in their bunkers
Rich Five - they were frozen with Tech A stuff, but if you presume the KFS are the Rich Five, they could be making some Tech A stuff 150 years after The Big Oops.
The Morrow Project
Wandering Warlock


(The Frozen Chosen are Tech Level C. And I too haven't gotten the 4th Edition.)

So this community is manufacturing:


smokeless ammunition, suitable for gas-operated weapons
semi-automatic handguns
gas-operated assault rifles


They are thus either making/mining, have made/mined, or have been given a hoard of:


metals needed for all of the above (ordnance steel, zinc, brass, lead, tool steel, etc.)
chemicals needed for all the above (nitrates, acids, sulfur, at least; lubricants for the machinery and the weapons)
a gun-factory worth of machine tools
dimensioned drawings for the weapons and ammo, with tolerances and units that more or less match the machinery in the gun-factory, the materials and processes available, and the skills of the workers


And they have some way to power a gun factory, an ammunition plant, and possibly a chemical plant. Plus they have skilled employees: for example, Para-Ordnance nowadays has about 60-65 workers, and they clearly don't mine their own iron ore, make their own ammunition, produce their own electrical power, etc.

I don't agree this has to be post-recovery (it's not all of America, after all; and many campaigns feature the KFS having all these capabilities) -- but it seems a bit ... much, for one community. Is this part of a larger nation: like, say, the Connecticut Valley in the early United States? Or something established ab initio by the Morrow Project?

"Rules for industry", mmm? How do those work?

--
Michael B.

[.45cultist]

The 4TH kept all that and has economic, resources rules centered around X amount of labor and materials for Y item at tech level Blank. economics center on the requirements for a kg of black or smokeless powder. I'm not doing the rules justice. Considering for 3RD ed. I was scrounging small industry, high school science and shop teachers for machinery and most ammo cases, bullets. And I had jewelers making the cups, copper foil and anvil for modern primers. I hope with this to have a 1940's- 1950's mix of tech. The people the team will encounter use black powder rifles for hunting because it's cheap and have M1911's under their jackets. BTW I forgot 230gr ball in the list. Perhaps the commercial M1911 load I read about: 230gr. cupro-nickel JFP@ 830-850fps.:)

[kalos72]

Sounds like I might have to get the 4thE...some good data there.

[.45cultist]

A few on the yahoo group were critical, but I'm trying to give it a fair shake. The industry rules were needed for reconstruction scenarios. Now rules for how the fusion forge improves things might be in a Starnaman module.

[kalos72]

Since I get sooooo deep in the details, HOW you actually rebuild society was always a sticking point in my T2k stuff too.

Even to the point of reaching out the HARN world and trying to modify it to fit...so any Morrow efforts into the same would be nice to see.

Shame I have to buy it to find out if its worth it. :(

[.45cultist]

It's larger than the 3rd ed., and costs more.Iit has some expanded gear, MOLLE, IBV, M82 Barrett, G17, Humvee. The M26 frag is replaced with the M67.

[ArmySGT.]

I don't agree this has to be post-recovery (it's not all of America, after all; and many campaigns feature the KFS having all these capabilities) -- but it seems a bit ... much, for one community. Is this part of a larger nation: like, say, the Connecticut Valley in the early United States? Or something established ab initio by the Morrow Project?

"Rules for industry", mmm? How do those work?

--
Michael B.

It is a whole lot much for one community.

The KFS is a nation. The leadership started after the war and has had 150 years to prepare and advance to where they are.

Granted they are self limiting because the Five are self serving and withhold advancements or resources to keep the common people in line.

Any community that is at the village level can and should have one possibly two industries that they do well. Something that is likely under the categories of Food, Shelter, and Clothing.

Trade in the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World) is going to be salvage or the occasional surplus. Anything up for trade is spare or the village can't use it or eat it.

Mining coal by hand can be one. Smelting salvaged metals could be another. Selling off or trading off trouble makers or selling themselves into indentured servitude for aid.

A successful agrarian village may export grain and cheese but, only for wool products or coal.

A successful barter village on a major city may trade copper wire, rubber tires, and women for meat, cheese, and flour.

The KFS may trade buffalo rifles but only for refined metal or functional mechanical devices like microwaves, radios, industrial kitchen equipment.

Etc.

[kalos72]

T2k had the same vibe...I disagree.

No reason why a village with the right combination of resources, can't succeed in PAW.

I think more importantly it comes down to leadership. But my Morrow experience is limited I have to admit.

[ArmySGT.]

T2k had the same vibe...I disagree.

No reason why a village with the right combination of resources, can't succeed in PAW.

I think more importantly it comes down to leadership. But my Morrow experience is limited I have to admit.

It goes against the theme of the game.

[kalos72]

How so? Again please forgive me I am a Morrow newb...

But I thought that game is about the fight to recover....not the ultimate failure and desolation of never being able to improve your standing.

[ArmySGT.]

How so? Again please forgive me I am a Morrow newb...

But I thought that game is about the fight to recover....not the ultimate failure and desolation of never being able to improve your standing.

The game is set in a post apocalypse 150 years after a nuclear war that lasted several months. Every major city most minor cities and all the industry or natural resources were pulverized.

In addition to nuclear winter, loss of crops and services, the usual illness that spring up when clean drinking water is scarce...... Biowarfare plagues were unleashed world wide.

5% of the world population survives. The survivors are mean, selfish, and self centered, also rightfully suspicious of anyone they meet.

The Humanity and Motivation (H&M) is low for any encounter group is low.

Typically there is little to salvage except for raw materials.

The MP comes out into this world as the altruistic do good nice guys.

They are up against a neo barbarian mongol horde (the Krell) and a fascist police state (the KFS), along with groups like Razers that are anti technology.

They have to convince these types to work toward the common good and cooperate.

MP is very much a thinking game as much as a combat simulation.

Without the specifics of the setting (dangerous encounters and lack of nearly anything) it just becomes an AD&D adventure in the wilderness.

[kato13]

How so? Again please forgive me I am a Morrow newb...

But I thought that game is about the fight to recover....not the ultimate failure and desolation of never being able to improve your standing.

Morrow is about recovery, but the initial knock back is much harder than what is presented in T2k. Subsequent actions by the major bad players further retard technological development.

After the war you have a 95-99% population loss in most areas. The first decades of recovery were a nightmare where regions would have to make very hard choices about what skills needed to be maintained and nurtured.

So 20 years down the line when the first post war generation is entering the workforce, what do you chose to teach them. Raw materials are coming in at a trickle. Wide ranging trade networks have not been established. Paper books are getting worn out with no way to replace them.

I think the greatest loss of "know how" occurs during this time. I would say the average tech level would be early/mid 1800s. Yes you might have pockets that do much better in one technological area.

So you have a couple of million people spread out across this wide nation, with some pretty bad folks (KFS and Krell) with higher technology trying to knock civilization back a bit further so they can maintain their advantage.

IMO The theme of Morrow is you are coming in and trying to push things forward which have generally stagnated for 120 or so years. If you wake up with 1980s technology and the world is generally in the 1950s you don't have the same effect as if they used 1850s technology.

I think people here will be happy to discuss any questions you may have on Morrow, but I highly recommend picking up both the old and new stuff.

[kalos72]

AD&D in the wilderness isn't about recovery...

I dont know..seems to me that say should a MP Science team come to a village and bring it out the chaos, why couldn't they overcome those setbacks.

Again leadership is key.

[kato13]

AD&D in the wilderness isn't about recovery...

I dont know..seems to me that say should a MP Science team come to a village and bring it out the chaos, why couldn't they overcome those setbacks.

Again leadership is key.

There are a lot of things working against a MP Science team in the scenario above.

General Lack of trust of Outsiders. It has been a rough century on those who were open to trust strangers.

Specific Lack of trust. Rogue Morrow teams, marauders using stolen equipment, and the disinformation campaigns of the KFS propaganda divisions all have made Morrow look bad in the past.

Their story sounds crazy. "Yeah right, you were born 185 years ago".

Purely altruistic acts also seem crazy in such harsh world.

You add to that the intrigue of a town leader who likes the level of control he has and doesn't want these outsiders rocking his very stable (and profitable) boat and you are well on your way to a good adventure.

Once they make it past that, the town can incrementally increase what they do, but you are not going to build Rome overnight.

Edit.

I was thinking of modern day examples. If you sent a special forces A team into a village that had maybe 15% literacy, what could you have them produce in under a year. Revolvers is about the limit I see.

[mikeo80]

One of the best examples of how a Morrow Team will be scrutinized is the Starnaman Scenario. A rogue "Morrow" team caused chaos right after TEOTWAWKI. The locals eventually defeated the "Morrow People". Now, 150 years later, a new Morrow Team is in the area. The locals will NOT be happy.

Oh, and by the way, there is a Major Morrow re-supply facility that is VERY near the village. The last of the "Morrow" team were killed near it.

The only way I have seen a team "win" this scenario is the slow but sure method. The team used their First Contact specialist to bring new ideas ONE AT A TIME to the village. Things like crop rotation, water treatment, etc. At no time was a Morrow Uniform or equipment visable. The First Contact specialist brought back the horror stories of what "Morrow" had done to this village. The TL did a couple of things. One, he moved the team about 20 mile away to another village to try and help them. Two, ONLY the First Contact specialist had any dealings with Starnaman, in the guise of a "trader".

When this game ended, we had spent a "year" in position. Starnaman still hated "Morrow". But there were a few things starting to happen to slowly change things. Crop production had increased somewhat due to rotation. Cholera and typhoid had decreased in Starnaman.

My $0.02

Mike

[.45cultist]

I might go to an earlier idea, almost modern weaponry(1920's-1950's) with less modern transport(1890's). M1911's and AR rifles with wagons and horseless carriages. Crystal radio receivers, early 1920's style generators. I now think it would take a few communities, perhaps a county or two. Like the dark ages, low population is the main inhibitor.

[Gelrir]

Or: pull the "Morrow" tags and patches off of your coveralls, vehicle, etc. If the word "Morrow" causes a bad reaction -- ditch it. The purpose of the Project isn't to make Bruce Morrow famous, after all.

--
Michael B.

[ArmySGT.]

There are a lot of things working against a MP Science team in the scenario above.


Desire to "own" the MP high tech especially the Fusion pack"
Jealous of the new weapons and faultless ammunition
anger and suspicion at all these new ideas
fear and resistance to change
fear of outsiders bringing disease
fear of nice outsiders being spies for raiders
not wanting to share village resources like a source of clean water
fear of this new or crazy stuff like medication
fear of organized men in uniforms (descendants of former military units)
not wanting soldiers with weapons in their village (make it a target)
not wanting to upset the warlord, duke, baron, khan, ceasar, by hosting these warriors.
etc

[ArmySGT.]

AD&D in the wilderness isn't about recovery...

Precisely. In the AD&D wilderness campaigns there is outposts and traders. Village to rest in. Established territories and trade.

In the Morrow Project every village outside of the KFS and a few territories is mostly alone. Gypy truckers pass through, Mailmen pass through, Razers pass through; However, it can be weeks, months, or years before they are seen again. Even in Texas, The Republic there is still fragmented and even with refined fuels they don't have much trade except internally. They don't have the manufacturing base or the educated population to make it go.

25 years per generation.... 150 years makes for five generations since the war began. Gen 1 had educated parents or guardians. Gen 2 and later had diminishing education and knowledge. If it wasn't necessary to live it could well be forgotten.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Interesting discussion.

I think KFS, frozen chosen and other hi tech cultures can certainly produce a lot of tech but there's a cut off. I'd say it's when you start moving from electronics to micro electronics. Round about the 1960s, when you go from fixing your own cars with you and your buddies tools till it moves over to a guy at a garage plugging it onto a computer.

Valve tech isn't so hard to build by hand it's a lot easier to build a vacuum tube than a circuit board.

So I'd say the cream of post apocalyptic technology would be somewhere between world war 2 and the Vietnam war.

Again as this is being built by hand, by a relatively small number of engineer/mechanics.

So it's more likely to produce an occasional big shock, a scouting unit with a couple of hefty night scoped rifles tracking the team by night, a decoding computer breaking the code on their radios.

Or possibly even anti tank guided missiles, not fancy guided or even SACLOS types. But an old school joy stick guided one like the sagger, not accurate but quite capable of crippling a poorly camouflaged parked vehicle.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Interesting discussion.

I think KFS, frozen chosen and other hi tech cultures can certainly produce a lot of tech but there's a cut off. I'd say it's when you start moving from electronics to micro electronics. Round about the 1960s, when you go from fixing your own cars with you and your buddies tools till it moves over to a guy at a garage plugging it onto a computer.

Valve tech isn't so hard to build by hand it's a lot easier to build a vacuum tube than a circuit board.

So I'd say the cream of post apocalyptic technology would be somewhere between world war 2 and the Vietnam war.

Again as this is being built by hand, by a relatively small number of engineer/mechanics.

So it's more likely to produce an occasional big shock, a scouting unit with a couple of hefty night scoped rifles tracking the team by night, a decoding computer breaking the code on their radios.

Or possibly even anti tank guided missiles, not fancy guided or even SACLOS types. But an old school joy stick guided one like the sagger, not accurate but quite capable of crippling a poorly camouflaged parked vehicle.

[stormlion1]

The KFS, Frozen Chosen, Krell, etc are essentially regional powers using equipment stocked away before the war so yes they have a leg up in rebuilding. They can even expand if they wanted to but where they expand into won't get the upgrades as the original areas would have and they would have to salvage new resource's and put them to work for them. The Frozen Chosen just because they have the ability to produce new ammunition for there rifles isn't going to have the capability to build a ammunition factory elsewhere. At least not one half as good as the original.
A town wanting to become self sufficient in this timeline won't truly be able to. Its a matter of manning. Small towns have small populations, they can grow food, make clothes, and even put out a few luxury goods for there own use or trade. But if they want to build a factory to produce ammunition than something has to give, will it be food? Clothes< Trade goods? Will people have to leave town to get raw materials? Brass isn't abundant so most likely they will trade for it, but what to trade? They gave up there trade good business to build a ammo factory, one not building ammo due to not having the raw materials! Each town is now an island dependent on trade routes and raw materials and alliances to make a go of it. Leadership is all well and good, but it doesn't get everything done that needs to be done. I mean it is doable but the odds are pretty lousy and there is more of a chance the locals will smother you in your sleep because there hungry and tired than of success.

[ArmySGT.]

Or: pull the "Morrow" tags and patches off of your coveralls, vehicle, etc. If the word "Morrow" causes a bad reaction -- ditch it. The purpose of the Project isn't to make Bruce Morrow famous, after all.

--
Michael B.

There is specific cultural taboos among the residents of Starnaman to prevent a clever team from getting away with just that. One is a prohibition against coveralls, as the evil Morrow people wore coveralls.

[.45cultist]

The Civilization computer games can show how the various resources are interdependent.