KFS Refit

[ArmySGT.]

So in 4th Edition the Morrow Project gets an equipment refit to go with the later start date of the War.

To that end, I feel the KFS should get the same treatment.

New tech for the Rich Five, their minions The 2000, then the secret police and armies of this police state.

From "Bullets & Bluegrass" we know the KFS fields the Thunderbolt fighter bomber, V-300 (and variants), M1 Abrams, M2 Bradleys (both minus fancy electronics or munitions), M102 howitzers for large caliber systems. The troops have Mini 14s for rifles, the CETME SAW, S&W M59 pistol. M2HBs and rifle grenades add punch and supporting fire power. The use M35 (2 1/2ton) trucks and M151 jeeps regularly plus extensive use of horse patrols. They can communicate via radio from the platoon level upward.

What is your take on making the KFS a credible threat to MP personnel except to the fact that there is hundreds of them, and loyal to the Rich Five too?

[Gelrir]

All that stuff sounds mighty credible still, unless the Morrow Project has turned a lot more heavily-armed in the 4th Edition.

The V300 always struck me as a "let's use this, since we have stats on the V150 already" solution. For a "let's stash an army in the early 21st Century" scenario, MRAP vehicles and HMMWV variants would probably be more "in-period" than V300s and M151 "mutts".

The production of M1 tanks, but with different armor, weapons, systems, engine and drive train always struck me as another "let's use an existing published description" problem. It's just "shaped" like an M1 tank at that point. In my opinion, an KFS tank would be the engine, transmission, drivetrain, tracks and suspension of whatever industrial tracked vehicle they use/produce, and simple armored hull and turret, mounting a main gun in a caliber that matches one of their artillery rounds. Building a fake 20th Century main battle tank for a century after they're needed seems a bit odd.

Of course, there might be some political, ceremonial need to make a tank that "looks" like an M1.

The KFS army is described in Bullets and Bluegrass as having seven 1300-man regiments, plus the air force, secret police, etc.. There've been long discussions about the "correct" size of the KFS military, how much manufacturing capacity they would have, etc. The Bullets and Bluegrass book suggests that the KFS is the only source for percussion primers in their trading zone.

--
Michael B.

[ArmySGT.]

If the Iowa tank plant and the Anniston Depot are under KFS control, the M1 makes sense as does the M2.

I figure the KFS and most anyone doing any fighting does so in the 18th to mid 19th century style. From the time after crops are planted up until crops need to be harvested. Agriculture being rather labor intensive. I would not doubt that any KFS units supplement their rations (in the corrupt KFS) by growing their own. KFS units might even place a premium on capturing pre-war farming equipment and healthy livestock.

Back to weapons. I think you're right on just using stock 1980's equipment without writing stats for something new. The M35 stats and the M151 stats are in "Liberation at Riverton".

I think that the KFS should be fielding M16s and M4s unless, those are worn out. If they are taking over M1 tanks, M2 IFVs, and M102 howitzers from former army and marine units then why don't they have the small arms too?

So yeah, KFS should have M16A2s. I think it was writers bias. Someone on staff really hates the M16. No reason that the Rich Five can't have the resources and machinery to produce more. If you can make a fusion plant, what is an M16?

I would have expected simpler vehicles even some WW2 and WW1 models, not even American ones at that. Those would be cheaper to make, cheaper to operate, simpler to repair, and easier to operate. The easier to operate would be a factor when you are intentionally limiting education to keep the masses controllable. To the point of fielding things like the Hetzer (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/jagdpanzer-38t-hetzer.htm).

[ArmySGT.]

The Thunderbolt is a pretty good airplane, especially for what the KFS uses it for. I think there is a strong argument for spotter aircraft like the piper cub (http://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/classic/piper-j-3-cub.htm) and a transport like the DC-3 (http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/stats.main?id=188)too. In that vein, rotary wing aircraft too. The KFS has a lot of territory and the pilots of the Thunderbolts are politically connected. I don't see why there isn't a helo standing by in case one of the T-birds gets shot down.

Then the argument for more luxurious or capable aircraft for moving family members of the Rich Five or executives of the 2000 around KFS territory.

[Project_Sardonicus]

I think the M1 and Bradley seem unlikely, they're the product of a wealthy modern state with near limitless resources.
Where as in the dark future they're 30 and 70 tonnes of heavy metal taking lots of resources too build, gallons of petrol to move.
Like WW2 Tiger tanks they'd be sitting broken down or out fuel by the side of the road.

I'd think they'd be more likely to go along the route of Allied armour units.

Small fast, long range tanks like Shermans or T34s and a few heavily armed tank destroyers for heavier opponents.

It's probably easier to retool the factories that to carry on.

I think the M16 makes more sense, but how popular is a weapon that chews about hundreds of bullets in a sustained firefight. When industrial production is lessened and there isn't a resupply helicopter in the hanger. Perhaps a semi auto version with a smaller magazine.

[Gelrir]

The KFS is described as "not having had a war in a century"; I don't think they would feel the need for tank destroyers (for example) or even, perhaps, tanks.

An armored car should be more than enough to deal with the cap-and-ball musket neighbors; the Air Force can put the fear of death into Truckers and other visiting "trouble".

--
Michael B.

[Gelrir]

Some of the MRAP vehicles use the 5 or 10 ton "army truck" powertrain, wheels, and automotive systems. I would suspect the KFS might find the same plan to be attractive: pick some heavy truck in production within the KFS, and build an armored body to plonk down on the chassis. Sprinkle with machine guns to taste.

Armor thick enough to stop a .50 cal AP round is probably "tank" level armor in the 22nd Century, in any case (outside of Texas and northern Mexico).

--
Michael B.

[kato13]

I agree with most of what has been said, but I can see the KFS keeping a few Heavy vehicles ready to counter any Morrow Teams still out there.

Morrow Teams (and anyone they train in insurgency) will have many options for dealing with armored trucks, but far fewer to deal with Sherman/M48 level tanks.

[Gelrir]

It's not too clear from Bullets and Bluegrass how long the KFS has been grabbing MP teams and gear ... long enough to have copied fusion reactors, resistweave, and V150s (in the form of V300 armored cars). And of course they probably have known about the Project since before the Atomic War.

In the end, it's a call for the referee/PD to make.

--
Michael B.

[RandyT0001]

There will have to be some sort of adjustment for the 2017 setting because the armor school moved from Fort Knox to Fort Benning in 2010. The M1 tanks and Bradleys that the KFS copied for use against the MP have moved to Georgia.

[ArmySGT.]

It's not too clear from Bullets and Bluegrass how long the KFS has been grabbing MP teams and gear ... long enough to have copied fusion reactors, resistweave, and V150s (in the form of V300 armored cars). And of course they probably have known about the Project since before the Atomic War.

In the end, it's a call for the referee/PD to make.

--
Michael B.


The KFS is founded by the Rich Five....... They are five families of industrialists that were part of the Council of Tomorrow.

They didn't steal those things and copy them. They were frozen in their own cryosleep capsules with that stuff and the "2000". Families (minions) loyal to the Rich Five.

[ArmySGT.]

There will have to be some sort of adjustment for the 2017 setting because the armor school moved from Fort Knox to Fort Benning in 2010. The M1 tanks and Bradleys that the KFS copied for use against the MP have moved to Georgia.

There is plenty at Ft. Campbell and local National Guard units.

[ArmySGT.]

KFS river monitors? Like the converted LCMs in Viet Nam....

[RandyT0001]

The KFS does seem to rely on rivers and mountains for borders. The Tennessee and Ohio Rivers provide a substantial obstacle for any potential invader. The KFS probably monitors and maintains the few bridges and provides the ferries that cross both rivers. I think that the few monitors the KFS has on the rivers are going to be powered by steam. Steam power is sufficient for river travel, is easy to maintain at a lower technology level, and if it falls into 'enemy' hands it is not a technology that would provide said 'enemy' an advantage. Of course, having any significant river transport would require clearing the channel of snags and erecting some wing dams or dikes to coax the flow to a preferred, deeper water channel.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Some of the MRAP vehicles use the 5 or 10 ton "army truck" powertrain, wheels, and automotive systems. I would suspect the KFS might find the same plan to be attractive: pick some heavy truck in production within the KFS, and build an armored body to plonk down on the chassis. Sprinkle with machine guns to taste.

Armor thick enough to stop a .50 cal AP round is probably "tank" level armor in the 22nd Century, in any case (outside of Texas and northern Mexico).

--
Michael B.

Wasn't both the M113 and the V100 powered by the same basic engine as a school bus. So it wouldn't be implausible for KFS to bascially reskin the same basic vehicle.

[RandyT0001]

I've been working on a River Commerce supplement to the MP. Totally un-official of course. I've included a two page sample as a pdf file. I work on it from time to time so I have no set deadline or specified completion date.

[ArmySGT.]

The KFS is described as "not having had a war in a century"; I don't think they would feel the need for tank destroyers (for example) or even, perhaps, tanks.

An armored car should be more than enough to deal with the cap-and-ball musket neighbors; the Air Force can put the fear of death into Truckers and other visiting "trouble".

--
Michael B.


Probably not War in the traditional sense of two armies lining up on opposite sides. However, the KFS does have to contend with incursions by Krell, internal rebellions, and probably raids.

So something like the highly mobile indian wars of the late 19th centrury would be appropriate to think about.

[Gelrir]

Bullets and Bluegrass, pg. 8

"... it has been well over a hundred years since [the army] has had to fight anything even remotely resembling a war. Fighting starving bands of border raiders and river pirates or suppressing the odd slave revolt has given it an exaggerated view of its own prowess."

Five regiments guard the borders, and two (the 'praetorians') act as rapid reserve, capital defense, and insurance against military mutinies in the other regiments. The Secret Police do the special operations sneaky-pete stuff, and monitor the praetorians especially (at a guess).

The KFS is pretty well equipped to fend off border raiders, river pirates and revolting slaves. And the module recognizes the fact that the greatest threat of "internal rebellion" comes from the armed forces. They deliberately restrict the size and capabilities of the Army for that reason.

The 1st-3rd Editions of the rules, and the scenarios, didn't (if I recall) present any continent-spanning view of what Krell's followers are up to. Their listed "region" in the 3rd Edition covers Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Missouri -- so there's a short border area in common with the KFS. Maybe they're got things in common: the Morrow Project, at least.

Thus: while it's not mentioned in canon, any KFS - Krell conflict seems very likely. Both sides have spent 150 years building up their fighting forces. The Warriors of Krell aren't described as being supported by a large industrial base; they might covet the KFS's "stuff", and would hence be the most potent "border raiders".

Border raiders with the occasional anti-tank mine, LAW rocket, 20mm autocannon, or TOW missile launcher (all from Morrow sources) could do a lot to blunt the KFS technical advantages.

Plus: the Project's members get a mild philosophical twinge when they realize that the River War (between Krell and the KFS) wouldn't even have happened if the Project had never existed.

--
Michael B

[stormlion1]

Might be interesting for a Morrow Team to get stuck between the Krell and the KFS, or to attempt to start a shooting war between the two in an effort to weaken both sides. Useful if the Team wanted to put a kibosh into the KFS's expansion plans.

[Gelrir]

Start a war ... to rebuild America!

Maybe something a bit more precise would be better for all the Americans involved.

--
Michael B.

[ArmySGT.]

Bullets and Bluegrass, pg. 8

"... it has been well over a hundred years since [the army] has had to fight anything even remotely resembling a war. Fighting starving bands of border raiders and river pirates or suppressing the odd slave revolt has given it an exaggerated view of its own prowess."

Five regiments guard the borders, and two (the 'praetorians') act as rapid reserve, capital defense, and insurance against military mutinies in the other regiments. The Secret Police do the special operations sneaky-pete stuff, and monitor the praetorians especially (at a guess).

The KFS is pretty well equipped to fend off border raiders, river pirates and revolting slaves. And the module recognizes the fact that the greatest threat of "internal rebellion" comes from the armed forces. They deliberately restrict the size and capabilities of the Army for that reason.

The 1st-3rd Editions of the rules, and the scenarios, didn't (if I recall) present any continent-spanning view of what Krell's followers are up to. Their listed "region" in the 3rd Edition covers Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Missouri -- so there's a short border area in common with the KFS. Maybe they're got things in common: the Morrow Project, at least.

Thus: while it's not mentioned in canon, any KFS - Krell conflict seems very likely. Both sides have spent 150 years building up their fighting forces. The Warriors of Krell aren't described as being supported by a large industrial base; they might covet the KFS's "stuff", and would hence be the most potent "border raiders".

Border raiders with the occasional anti-tank mine, LAW rocket, 20mm autocannon, or TOW missile launcher (all from Morrow sources) could do a lot to blunt the KFS technical advantages.

Plus: the Project's members get a mild philosophical twinge when they realize that the River War (between Krell and the KFS) wouldn't even have happened if the Project had never existed.

--
Michael B

Krell appears to be like the Mongolian Horde. The move from region to region plundering then return to their home base. Krell are in Washington State, (Operation Final Watch) with a ship and quite a few men. The Krell are on the periphery in Operation Lonestar but, play an insignificant role. Possibly planning a move on the Lonestar Republic if the Brotherhood wins or if the Army at Ft. Hood is weak. Everyone covets the oil and the ability to refine it. Of course, the Krell are also in Idaho (150 years in the past) for Prime Base.

With a shift in the extraction of natural resources in the U.S. since third edition was published; coupled with the loss of major manufacturing in the Great Lakes region, encounter groups locations need a major re-write.

[ArmySGT.]

Might be interesting for a Morrow Team to get stuck between the Krell and the KFS, or to attempt to start a shooting war between the two in an effort to weaken both sides. Useful if the Team wanted to put a kibosh into the KFS's expansion plans.

There is a chance to start a fight between Krell and Maxwell's Militia in "Operation at Riverton" as well as in "Operation Lucifer".

No Krell in "Operation Damocles" but there is ample reason to draw them in when Damocles begins broadcasting MP wakeup signals really loudly. Then there is ample recruits for the Krell in all the encampments of "Cons" throughout the Upper Peninsula that have every reason to hate the Finns and WANT to join Krell.

[stormlion1]

Start a war ... to rebuild America!

Maybe something a bit more precise would be better for all the Americans involved.

--
Michael B.

150 years after a nuclear war the various factions aren't really the American ideal anymore. They probably don't even call themselves American anymore. There something different and will need to be broken so something better can be built up to replace it. Starting a war between the Krell and the KFS would get there attention on each other, wasting rescources and even keeping them contained from expansion into more free areas. Hopefully it will be a long war and attrition will bring the victor down low enough the Project or better yet internal problems can bring down the victor from within.

[ArmySGT.]

150 years after a nuclear war the various factions aren't really the American ideal anymore. They probably don't even call themselves American anymore. There something different and will need to be broken so something better can be built up to replace it. Starting a war between the Krell and the KFS would get there attention on each other, wasting rescources and even keeping them contained from expansion into more free areas. Hopefully it will be a long war and attrition will bring the victor down low enough the Project or better yet internal problems can bring down the victor from within.

I see your point, however.

Such a war would be bad for the KFS and strengthen the Krell. The Krell don't have a country or a capital to take over. They are akin to the Mongolian Horde. The Krell sweep over an area and eat it clean, then move on.

There is the potential to lose more of civilization and something that could be built up and turned to more barbarism and loss.

[Gelrir]

And, ya know, kill a lot of people. "The Rich Five tyrannize 98% of their society; how many ordinary citizens can we kill before we're worse than the Rich Five?".

--
Michael B.

[Gelrir]

150 years after a nuclear war the various factions aren't really the American ideal anymore. They probably don't even call themselves American anymore. There something different and will need to be broken so something better can be built up to replace it.

That's another big philosophical point for teams to ponder: if there aren't any people calling themselves Americans, should they inhabitants of North American be swept clear with fire and sword so that you can "Rebuild America"? I dunno that "breaking" everyone in North America to fit your goal is very nice.

Yes, maybe instigating a civil war among the Warriors of Krell or the subjects of the KFS would be a good thing -- they deserve better governments, most Morrow folks would agree. Destroying them en masse isn't the same as a beneficial revolution.

--
Michael B.

[ArmySGT.]

And, ya know, kill a lot of people. "The Rich Five tyrannize 98% of their society; how many ordinary citizens can we kill before we're worse than the Rich Five?".

--
Michael B.

Look. Sarcasm and snarky replies are not going to be appreciated by the community. If you don't like what we have to say, try to frame it in some constructive criticism.

[Project_Sardonicus]

I think as I've said before Krell and Kansas etc don't need to reinvent the wheel in so much as discover it. So they may be able to come up with short cuts technologically that will give quite a shock.

Take for example whatever sort of light tank, apc etc they decide to go for.

If they fit it with anti spalling pads inside, a very basic fire extinguishing system, lockers for ammo and some of those anti rocket bar systems that are all the rage in downtown Basra. Then now their v300 is not impregnable, but certainly able to survive a good few LAW hits.

[ArmySGT.]

I think as I've said before Krell and Kansas etc don't need to reinvent the wheel in so much as discover it. So they may be able to come up with short cuts technologically that will give quite a shock.

Take for example whatever sort of light tank, apc etc they decide to go for.

If they fit it with anti spalling pads inside, a very basic fire extinguishing system, lockers for ammo and some of those anti rocket bar systems that are all the rage in downtown Basra. Then now their v300 is not impregnable, but certainly able to survive a good few LAW hits.

Krell? Probably not so much. Thought and innovation are discouraged. Molotovs and satchel bag bombs and some captured MP gear.

The KFS on the other hand, Yes. Especially the "Praetorians" and the Secret Police force. The regular army? Possibly not.

The KFS V-300s with the 90mm gun would just need the slat armor system and possibly a fire system to get there.

[ArmySGT.]

Since the Rich Five is the tech equal of the Project.

Where and in what way do you suppose they use cryosleep beds, fusion reactors, and megawatt lasers?

Do they freeze squads of the best and loyal warriors for time of war?

Do they withhold fusion power from even the Two Thousand?

[Capt Gideon]

What electronics and transformers that aren't wiped out by EMP will be taken out by tin whiskers and similar traits that plague electronics. While the electronics in an Abrams might survive the nuclear exchange, they don't keep the spare parts and test equipment needed to maintain and repair the tank in hardened storage areas. And unlike the M48, M60, M103 tanks which could be operated without any electronics and even had manual operation for training the turret and elevating the gun, the M1 tank is nothing by an oversized paperweight without its electronics. The turret was said to be too heavy for manual operation and unlike the simple gasoline and diesel engines of earlier tanks, the gas turbine has a very sophisticated electronic fuel control and operating system. The M48, M60 & M103 all had optical sights in addition to the electronic and IR sights, not the Abrams, all the optics are electronic. The M1 is also a fuel hog. The gas turbine takes five times the fuel that the multi-fuel piston engine of the Leopard2A6. So where a Leopard2A6 would need one fuel truck to support it getting to an objective, the M1A2 would need 5 fuel trucks to reach the same objective. Not a big deal back in the 1970s when it was designed to fight a defensive war in Europe.

But if you wanted to equipped your own army to be awakened 30 years after the war in a more tolerant age you would want simple rugged designs that are easy to repair and maintain, plus that can be put into production with much greater ease. So starting in the 1970s when the USSR starts selling off old hardware You start buying T-54 and later T-55 tanks. Over 20,000 T-55 were produced just for the export market by USSR, not including what China and Warsaw Pact countries. JS-2K, JS-3M and T-10M heavy tanks along with ISU-152K/M Assault/Anti-Tank Guns were also heavily sold off in the 70s & 80s after modernizations. The T-54/55 series saw the widest array of variants based on the hull, including ARV, CEV, flame thrower tanks, mine sweepers, etc. To equipped a mixed armored Infantry division with two armored Battalions, one armored infantry battalion and three mechanized infantry battalions, with three artillery Battalions (one self propelled), one anti-aircraft battalion and support battalions. You are talking 90 heavy tanks, 285 medium tanks, 70 assault guns, 20 flame thrower tanks, 416 APC, 167 armored cars, 2164 M35 Trucks, 1076 M151 Jeeps, 26 bridge layers, 8 mine clearing tanks, and various other support vehicles. Besides given the type of opposition they were expecting to face, the Rich-5 would not have needed a large force of super tanks, just a large force of average tanks would do quit well. Now they may have a secret force of a 40 super tanks just in case they might need to crush a rebellion in their own ranks, but that might be a special version of the Merkav-4 MBT with the 120mm L55 smoothbore Gun, internal 60mm mortar in the roof, one 12.7mm MG and two 7.62mm MG with a crew of 4 and up to 6 passengers with combat gear in rear (rear access hatch). Even if there standard heavy tanks are captured, they should have a way to deal with it, a Pretorian guard if you will with Tech Level A gear (2015 + 100 years), while their main military is 1950s/early 60s era gear. Effective but nothing special.

Most everything dependent on electronics after the war that isn't knocked out by EMP, will simply fail do to lack of parts and lack of maintenance. It takes electronics to trouble shoot electronics on all but the simplest level. I have three cars, a 2011, a 1952 and a 1946. I take the 2011 in for all its maintenance and work, I don't even try to do work on it. The 1946 is my long term project and the 1952 is my fun pickup. I try and do as much of the work as I can and have a garage full of tools to work with. I even have rebuilt multimeters from back in the 1960s that work great and I can repair. The new ones are designed to be thrown away because it would cost as much to fix them as it would to buy a new one. Equipment designed and made prior to 1972 (the year electronic ignitions became standard) would have a much easier time being repaired and maintained then those of more modern design (1980 onward).

[ArmySGT.]

The Rich Five had themselves frozen along with a portion of their economic empires. Included are two thousand loyal families to operate all that stuff.

They are Tech Level A and can produce equipment at tech level A.

The Anniston Army Depot is in the Kentucky Free States Territory and the Iowa tank plant isn't too far away to send expeditions for the materials there.

The Project and the Rich Five (former CoT members) were preparing for a war with the Soviet Union. Neither is going to equip themselves with Soviet equipment then just stand back and wait to be attacked be anyone and everyone.

The KFS doesn't really seem to actually use the M1 Abrams and M2 Bradleys they have. The send foot infantry, horse cavalry, or mechanized cavalry (V-300s) supported by 105mm arty towed by trucks.

Their heavy armor seems to be a heavy reserve.

[Capt Gideon]

KFS is listed as having three tech levels. The way I interpret this is that the Ultra Elite and Elite levels of society and those that serve and protect them have access to Tech Level A, the Average citizenry has access to Tech level B and the Worker, Slave would be Tech Level C or lower. Basically the highest level needed for the work they are doing. Their military would not be fully trusted so the equipment it would have would be kept simple and rugged (AK-47, RPG-7, T-54/55, etc.) while the elite Guard made up of the most loyal troops would have Tech Level A gear (Landwarrior, Merkava 4 tanks, smart weapons). The Elite class of society may have personal servant & body guard robots and everyone in society is by chipped. The size and scope of the capital, the railroad system and aircraft capability are all open. They should at least have early jet technology (F-80, F-84, F-86, etc) but with no adversary would they need much more. Why build real expensive fighter when you have nothing to fight? Jets are easier to maintain and use cheaper fuel then piston engine aircraft so there is a reason to pursue that technology. This is how I have been approaching it, high enough to do the job, but basic enough given the type of opposition they would be facing. Just like with farming, just enough technology to maximize production, but not so much that it becomes hard to maintain or overtly complicated to operate.

[ArmySGT.]

Unless this is background for your own campaign (if so go for it) consider purchasing the Project files "Bullets and Bluegrass" and "Fallback!" directly from Timeline limited. Contained is the current status of the KFS and how it is equipped. CATALOG (http://store.timelineltd.com/)

It really appears that the KFS at the intial awakening of the Rich Five and their minions the Two Thousand was lightly armed and armored with the Mini-14 rifle, Ameli LMGs, M59 pistol, and the V-300. The artillery and heavy armor came from looting National Guard and active Units or absorbing their survivors. The P-47 Thunderbolt is a later addition once re-engineered from one or two taken from an aviation museum.

Seeing as all of this is 1970s tech and the 4th edition is getting a technological makeover, it stands to reason (IMHO) that the enemies of the Project should get one too.

This and there are gaps in capability and deployed systems by the KFS that can be addressed in this thread.

Seems like the KFS should have at minimum AN/PVS-5 goggles down to the squad leader level for night operations. AN/PVS-7s for the Praetorians. As an example where something is missing.

A real breakdown of the Military and Internal Security structures would be nice to know (Order of Battle) too.

[ArmySGT.]

What electronics and transformers that aren't wiped out by EMP will be taken out by tin whiskers and similar traits that plague electronics. While the electronics in an Abrams might survive the nuclear exchange, they don't keep the spare parts and test equipment needed to maintain and repair the tank in hardened storage areas. And unlike the M48, M60, M103 tanks which could be operated without any electronics and even had manual operation for training the turret and elevating the gun, the M1 tank is nothing by an oversized paperweight without its electronics. The turret was said to be too heavy for manual operation and unlike the simple gasoline and diesel engines of earlier tanks, the gas turbine has a very sophisticated electronic fuel control and operating system. The M48, M60 & M103 all had optical sights in addition to the electronic and IR sights, not the Abrams, all the optics are electronic. The M1 is also a fuel hog. The gas turbine takes five times the fuel that the multi-fuel piston engine of the Leopard2A6. So where a Leopard2A6 would need one fuel truck to support it getting to an objective, the M1A2 would need 5 fuel trucks to reach the same objective. Not a big deal back in the 1970s when it was designed to fight a defensive war in Europe.

I think you will be rather surprised by how primitive the electronics in an M1 actually are. These are EMP hardened solid state electronics rooted in the 1970s. The DoD fully expected a nuclear battlefield and prepared the equipment for it. These will ride out a near miss and start right up. The newer digital electronic such as the Blue Force tracker and the SINCGARS radio could be affected if the antennas are not dismounted. If these are then their protected as the hull of the M1 and M2 act as a big faraday cage and conduct the EMP pulse to the earth.

[welsh]

I have to admit that I don't have Fallback or Bullets and Bluegrass, but then I am not sure how far one needs to follow Morrow Project Canon either. To me the game books are more tools than bible, useful for the story you tell.

If, as was discussed above, is to be taken as game canon, than it seems the KFS has 3 basic security challenges.

(1) external threats that usually don't amass to more than pirates, bandits and border challenges. Perhaps they engage in slave raiding, but since they haven't fought a real war in 100 years, I suspect that their heavy weapons are in disrepair. If they needed it, they would do the upkeep, but they probably don't and so, law of entropy, it falls apart.

(2) Slave revolts. One would need some kind of control mechanism to keep the slaves down, but at the same time, you don't want the slaves to get their hands on weapons too easily. So you would probably need some kind of auxiliary militia to stomp out any slave revolts as well as a reserve mobile force to attack.

(3) Coups- if their main fear is their own army, then they would coup-proof. Coup proofing occurs in a variety of ways but a praetorian guard is dangerous least the praetorians turn on the masters. I assume the Rich 5 is an oligopoly, which probably means they don't trust each other. Coup plotters often turn on each other in the less developing world (Liberia and Ethiopia are good cases). One could engage in surveillance of the military- but that is difficult and expensive. One could also factionalize the army, so that they balance against each other- but that risks nasty civil war.

An elite and loyal air arm would be a big plus, but it would depend on ground support. Air arms rarely launch coups (some exceptions in Ghana and Kenya). But armies do if they see they have the option.

If you are the Rich-5 and you are paranoid and worried about your army launching a coup, what kind of army would you create?

(1) One probably penetrated with loyalists.
(2) One that is probably fairly satisfied materially.
(3) One that is dependent on the rest of society and the political means.
(4) One that is divided into rival factions.
(5) One that is probably not overly well armed verses the others.

Heavy tanks and APCs that are gas guzzlers would not be so much a problem with regard to fuel if you have fusion reactors- but that is a much abused technology. I think the challenge is upkeep, electronics, wear and tear. I would also suspect that they would also need some kind of military education to train people to be pilots, engineers, technicians- a technologically efficient force, but not a professional force in the Huntington sense (a militarized civil society loyal to the political establishment), but a well-trained and educated one.

my 2 cents.

[Capt Gideon]

I developed a Society that the Rich 5 developed into back in the 90s before I ever heard of the KFS. I took the concept of a society fashioned by corporate elitists and an old theory that the high quality people are at a disadvantage because the lower quality people reproduce faster. So drawing first on Sir Francis Galton, who gave use weather maps and eugenics, along with the statistical ideal of Regression toward the Mean, and then throwing in Ayn Rand mostly Atlas Shrugged with John Galt a picture of the society came together. The capital city would be named Atlas and the nation would be named Galtonia. I kept the slave society but used the French model with a number of slave rights, then introduced the concept that if a family had been workers (slaves) in good standing for three generations then the children could apply for military service. Upon completion of 4 years the in service was a freeman and after six his wife and children would be free. The service man could eventually serve long enough to free his parents as well. This encourage loyalty in the military because service meant freedom for the families. I saw the society having a caste system with limited ability to change ones status. I saw then using a developed rail system instead of a developed road network because a electrified rail system meant you can control the flow of people and goods while at the same time making it difficult to use against you when you control the power to the system.

Public education can also serve as a way of indoctrinating the youth of a society. The use of RFID chips by all members of society is another means of control. The very upper level of society may even have personal robots while the worker farmer may be using farm equipment from the 60s & 70s. There may well be universal health care, but the level and sophistication of the care will depend on the status in society.

The Rich 5 know of the Morrow Project and want to know more. Slavers may have bounties for project personnel and the Rich 5 may provide slavers with special high tech gear from time to time just to catch PC off guard.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Krell? Probably not so much. Thought and innovation are discouraged. Molotovs and satchel bag bombs and some captured MP gear.

The KFS on the other hand, Yes. Especially the "Praetorians" and the Secret Police force. The regular army? Possibly not.

The KFS V-300s with the 90mm gun would just need the slat armor system and possibly a fire system to get there.

I think in terms of KFC in many ways like the SADF in the border wars of 70s-80s no political support intended, they were part of a horrid government.

But they do seemed to have mastered a modern form of Blitzkreig. For them the number one vehicle was the Rattel a big wheeled, armoured vehicle, with very long range, high speed and excellent cross country capability. At the expense of armour or until the Ingwe missile heavy armament.

Rather it was where it needed to be and in large numbers. With good recon it wasn't where enemy heavy tanks such as T55 were until they were in sufficent numbers to win.

The Rattel also had big windows, lots of doors and a few would have quick firing smoke launchers. So if facing an ambush, or a force of tanks it could quickly get the infantry out, screen the enemy with mortar smoke and then either run away from an ambush or charge down a tank at point blank range.

It's how a thin skinned vehicle with an ancient french 90mm took on a full size t55 and won again and again.

But where possible heavy armour was spotted by recon units and ambushed by lighter infantry units. At first with rpgs and mines later with atgms.

It's a model I can see KFS adopting, certainly the v300 is perfectly suited for such warfare. One could picture a skilled group of Spartans in v300s with good recon giving a MARS1 quite a head ache.

I could also vision elite recon Spartan tank hunters riding around in jeeps or on horse back hunting lone morrow units. Before crippling them with shots from anti material rifles, shattering engine blocks and puncturing tyres.

[Project_Sardonicus]

I have to admit that I don't have Fallback or Bullets and Bluegrass, but then I am not sure how far one needs to follow Morrow Project Canon either. To me the game books are more tools than bible, useful for the story you tell.

If, as was discussed above, is to be taken as game canon, than it seems the KFS has 3 basic security challenges.

(1) external threats that usually don't amass to more than pirates, bandits and border challenges. Perhaps they engage in slave raiding, but since they haven't fought a real war in 100 years, I suspect that their heavy weapons are in disrepair. If they needed it, they would do the upkeep, but they probably don't and so, law of entropy, it falls apart.

(2) Slave revolts. One would need some kind of control mechanism to keep the slaves down, but at the same time, you don't want the slaves to get their hands on weapons too easily. So you would probably need some kind of auxiliary militia to stomp out any slave revolts as well as a reserve mobile force to attack.

(3) Coups- if their main fear is their own army, then they would coup-proof. Coup proofing occurs in a variety of ways but a praetorian guard is dangerous least the praetorians turn on the masters. I assume the Rich 5 is an oligopoly, which probably means they don't trust each other. Coup plotters often turn on each other in the less developing world (Liberia and Ethiopia are good cases). One could engage in surveillance of the military- but that is difficult and expensive. One could also factionalize the army, so that they balance against each other- but that risks nasty civil war.

An elite and loyal air arm would be a big plus, but it would depend on ground support. Air arms rarely launch coups (some exceptions in Ghana and Kenya). But armies do if they see they have the option.

If you are the Rich-5 and you are paranoid and worried about your army launching a coup, what kind of army would you create?

(1) One probably penetrated with loyalists.
(2) One that is probably fairly satisfied materially.
(3) One that is dependent on the rest of society and the political means.
(4) One that is divided into rival factions.
(5) One that is probably not overly well armed verses the others.

Heavy tanks and APCs that are gas guzzlers would not be so much a problem with regard to fuel if you have fusion reactors- but that is a much abused technology. I think the challenge is upkeep, electronics, wear and tear. I would also suspect that they would also need some kind of military education to train people to be pilots, engineers, technicians- a technologically efficient force, but not a professional force in the Huntington sense (a militarized civil society loyal to the political establishment), but a well-trained and educated one.

my 2 cents.

Interesting and the kind of problem that has puzzled far older societies from Spartacus's revolt to the Indian mutiny. So here's what I think most of them do, first of all you raise a warrior elite. After 30 years of loyal service or if they die or are crippled you give them a modest pension, a chunk of land to farm absolution from taxes, a fancy piece of paper with a title on it. If the alternative is serfdom and slavery they'll suicide bomb their grannies bridge club. Then ala Stalin move them to police or fight far away from their homeland so they don't get any pangs of conciense. Then finally give them a smart uniform, make them clean it alot and sing songs about how awesome their army is. You can even bring silly laws like only elite soldiers and the nobility can brew beer or eat beef or what ever.

So for surprisingly little investment you have a force of soldiers that won't run, won't turn on you and will kill anyone you tell them too.

A similar model produced everyone from the elite Ghurka units, the SS and the legions of Ancient Rome.

[ArmySGT.]

I have to admit that I don't have Fallback or Bullets and Bluegrass, but then I am not sure how far one needs to follow Morrow Project Canon either. To me the game books are more tools than bible, useful for the story you tell.

No one is going to burn you at the stake if you depart from Morrow Project Canon. That is for the T2k/T2K13 side of the house. :p

Mostly Canon is used as a baseline. Canon adds consistency to the storytelling, and gives everyone common ground to progress in polite debate.

Departures from canon and alternate timelines are interesting and welcome. However, you will notice those threads tend to stall, as one person is telling the story and everyone else is agreeing or disagreeing.

The other reason for the canon discussions is that those of us that have the module would dearly love to expand upon them and fill out the details.

Trust me just as you have a whole adventure plotline planned out, the PCs are about to meet the NPC that introduces the story hook............. Someone tries to pickpocket the fat guy, fails their agility roll, a fight breaks out, and the PCs leave the tavern. Ha.

[ArmySGT.]

I have to admit that I don't have Fallback or Bullets and Bluegrass, but then I am not sure how far one needs to follow Morrow Project Canon either. To me the game books are more tools than bible, useful for the story you tell.

If, as was discussed above, is to be taken as game canon, than it seems the KFS has 3 basic security challenges.

(1) external threats that usually don't amass to more than pirates, bandits and border challenges. Perhaps they engage in slave raiding, but since they haven't fought a real war in 100 years, I suspect that their heavy weapons are in disrepair. If they needed it, they would do the upkeep, but they probably don't and so, law of entropy, it falls apart.

(2) Slave revolts. One would need some kind of control mechanism to keep the slaves down, but at the same time, you don't want the slaves to get their hands on weapons too easily. So you would probably need some kind of auxiliary militia to stomp out any slave revolts as well as a reserve mobile force to attack.

(3) Coups- if their main fear is their own army, then they would coup-proof. Coup proofing occurs in a variety of ways but a praetorian guard is dangerous least the praetorians turn on the masters. I assume the Rich 5 is an oligopoly, which probably means they don't trust each other. Coup plotters often turn on each other in the less developing world (Liberia and Ethiopia are good cases). One could engage in surveillance of the military- but that is difficult and expensive. One could also factionalize the army, so that they balance against each other- but that risks nasty civil war.

An elite and loyal air arm would be a big plus, but it would depend on ground support. Air arms rarely launch coups (some exceptions in Ghana and Kenya). But armies do if they see they have the option.

If you are the Rich-5 and you are paranoid and worried about your army launching a coup, what kind of army would you create?

(1) One probably penetrated with loyalists.
(2) One that is probably fairly satisfied materially.
(3) One that is dependent on the rest of society and the political means.
(4) One that is divided into rival factions.
(5) One that is probably not overly well armed verses the others.

Heavy tanks and APCs that are gas guzzlers would not be so much a problem with regard to fuel if you have fusion reactors- but that is a much abused technology. I think the challenge is upkeep, electronics, wear and tear. I would also suspect that they would also need some kind of military education to train people to be pilots, engineers, technicians- a technologically efficient force, but not a professional force in the Huntington sense (a militarized civil society loyal to the political establishment), but a well-trained and educated one.

my 2 cents.


That would summarize "Bullets & Bluegrass" pretty well.

Secret societies, Coup plots, inter - Family intrigue......... etc.

[ArmySGT.]

I think in terms of KFC in many ways like the SADF in the border wars of 70s-80s no political support intended, they were part of a horrid government.

But they do seemed to have mastered a modern form of Blitzkreig. For them the number one vehicle was the Rattel a big wheeled, armoured vehicle, with very long range, high speed and excellent cross country capability. At the expense of armour or until the Ingwe missile heavy armament.

Rather it was where it needed to be and in large numbers. With good recon it wasn't where enemy heavy tanks such as T55 were until they were in sufficent numbers to win.

The Rattel also had big windows, lots of doors and a few would have quick firing smoke launchers. So if facing an ambush, or a force of tanks it could quickly get the infantry out, screen the enemy with mortar smoke and then either run away from an ambush or charge down a tank at point blank range.

It's how a thin skinned vehicle with an ancient french 90mm took on a full size t55 and won again and again.

But where possible heavy armour was spotted by recon units and ambushed by lighter infantry units. At first with rpgs and mines later with atgms.

It's a model I can see KFS adopting, certainly the v300 is perfectly suited for such warfare. One could picture a skilled group of Spartans in v300s with good recon giving a MARS1 quite a head ache.

I could also vision elite recon Spartan tank hunters riding around in jeeps or on horse back hunting lone morrow units. Before crippling them with shots from anti material rifles, shattering engine blocks and puncturing tyres.

Fortunately for the PCs the KFS army is not that professional. The Officer Corps is hereditary, corrupt, and suspicious of one another.

Some of them are soldiers because they are not competent enough to be trusted with Family business!

[Project_Sardonicus]

Fortunately for the PCs the KFS army is not that professional. The Officer Corps is hereditary, corrupt, and suspicious of one another.

Some of them are soldiers because they are not competent enough to be trusted with Family business!


Of course one of the earliest uses of war has been to keep the number of inheriting sons don't to an acceptable level. So there's a real useful purpose to fierce pointless conflicts. Of course too many out of control conflicts can have a real cost. So most armies would still have a professional cadre of corporals and sergeants.

Beyond that there'd still be a need for all professional units, to prevent too many resources being wasted on fools errands. There may be an expandable resource of 3rd sons but not radios or armoured vehicles.
Further what happens when a feckless officer sells his equipment to the enemy to pay off a gambling debt.

As such I think there'd be a KFC professional force paid for by taxation and commanded by appointed commanders beyond all but the highest political control.

L Sprague De Camp had an interesting idea about this, with the royal bastard. An illegitimate son of the highest family. Who was the most senior general, but unable to ever actually command any form of government.

[welsh]

As I recall, the earliest political murder in Rome occurred because of a form of political factionalism when conservative elites (dominant landowning Senators) were pressured by political challengers to provide land to returning soldiers. This problem eventually contributed to the fall of the Republic- http://www.unrv.com/empire/gracchi-brothers.php

If you have a highly factionalized army and competing elites, that might put a damper on an expansive KFS, especially if the problem is more about elite rivalry, with powerful political patrons supporting military clients, that trying to keep your military compliant. One might add the danger of a slave revolt and the temptation is to keep the army close (especially if it is small) and protective of the patron. If the army does become expansive- as elites expand their power base- than they need to seize land or people quickly so that they can move back home should the patron be threatened.

The puzzle is why stay together and not just break apart into rival states. An oligopoly of paranoid elites would require an incentive to remain cooperative and willing to accept the risk of coup or assassination. If everyone is in the capital, than they are constantly at risk of assassination or a coup that wipes out the potential rivals and places one as leader. it might be easier just to carve out a chunk of the state, declare independence and defend your chunk of land against adversaries or launch a civil war from outside the capital and try to defeat your enemies.

This is the problem of coups in Africa- you can't break away because the state is either too small, the state as administration is too powerful to abandon. Add to that is the problem that the international community frowns on secessionist movements. The Glorious Revolution replaces the king with parliamentary oligopoly but they had to worry about foreign threats.

SO what keeps the KFS together?

[ArmySGT.]

SO what keeps the KFS together?

They operate as a corporation. The heads of the Families act as the Board and a rotating Chairman makes the daily (hasty) decisions.

The military elite is made of family members. The pilots are entirely family members, as are the ground commanders. The cooperation between the branches of the Forces has more to do with family loyalty than fidelity.

Fallback! Is the result of the KFS going to war to prosecute an assassination of a family member.

Each family brings something to the overall merchant empire, so they all cooperate. There is plenty of room for expansion and not enough external competition to cause hardship at home.

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/M35A2.png
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/M35A2-1.png

3958

PURPOSE: This vehicle is employed by various units primarily as a cargo and personnel carrier. It is operational on and off the highway.

GENERAL INFORMATION VEHICLE DATA
Nomenclature: TRUCK, CARGO: Type Classification & Date: Std A, 1963
2 1/2 Ton, 6x6, W/Winch, W/E
Replaces: M35A1
Model Number: M35A2
Life Expectancy: 15 Years
Crew/Cab Capacity: 2
Payload: 10,350 lb, Off Road: 7,000 lb
NSN: 2320-00-077-1617
Towed Load Allowance: 6,000 lb
LIN: X40146
Air Transportability: Phase II
SSN: D131030
TM: 9-2320-209-Series

CHARACTERISTICS
Horsepower: 140 bhp @ 2,600 rpm
Transmission: Manual; 5 fwd, 1 rev
Electrical System: 24 Volt
Tires: 9:00 x 20, 8-ply
Brakes: Air over hydraulic
Blackout Lights: Yes

PERFORMANCE DATA
Fording:
W/Kit: 72 in
WO/Kit: 30 in
Approach Angle: 40 Degrees

EQUIPMENT OPTIONS
Kits: Personnel Heater, Winterization,
Fording, Electric or Air
Brake, Troop Seat, Cargo Body
Closure (Arctic)
Winch: Yes

SHIPPING DATA
Weight: 13,700 lb
Cube: 1,260 cu ft
Ground Clearance: 10 15/16 in
Maximum Speed: 58 mph
Range: 350 miles

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/M109A3.png
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/M109A3-1.png

3955

PURPOSE: Mobile maintenance facility.
GENERAL INFORMATION
Nomenclature: TRUCK,VAN: 2 1/2 Ton,
6x6, Shop,W/Winch
Model Number: M109A3
Crew/Cab Capacity: 2
NSN: 2320-00-077-1637
LIN: X62477
SSN: D131120
TM: 9-2320-209-Series

CHARACTERISTICS
Horsepower: 140 bhp @ 2,600 rpm
Transmission: Manual; 5 Fwd, 1 Rev
Electrical System: 24 Volt
Tires: 9:00 x 20, 8-ply
Brakes: Air over hydraulic
Blackout Lights: Yes

PERFORMANCE DATA
Fording:
W/Kit: 72 in
WO/Kit: 30 in

VEHICLE DATA
Type Classification & Date: Std A, 1964
Replaces: M109, M109A2, M109A1
Life Expectancy: 15 Years
Payload: 5,000 lb
Towed Load Allowance: 6,000 lb
Air Transportabiiity: Phase iii

EQUIPMENT OPTIONS
Kits: Personnel Heater, Vent Body
Heater, Winterization, Fording,
Electric or Air Brakes
Winch: Yes

SHIPPING DATA
Weight: 15,400 lb
Cube: 2,020 cu ft
Ground Clearance: 1015116 in
Approach Angie: 40 Degrees

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/M49A2C.png
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/M49A2C-1.png

3957

PURPOSE: This vehicle is employed by various support units where mobile fuel servicing is essential.

GENERAL INFORMATION
Nomenclature: TRUCK, TANK: 2 1/2 Ton
6x6, Fuel Servicing, W/Winch
Model Number: M49A2C
Crew/Cab Capacity: 2
NSN: 2320-00-077-1632
LIN: X57408
SSN: D131090
TM: 9-2320-209-Series

CHARACTERISTICS
Engine: Multifuel
Horsepower: 140 bhp @ 2,600 rpm
Transmission: Manual; 5 Fwd, 1 Rev
Electrical System: 24 Volt
Tires: 9:00 x 20, 8-ply
Brakes: Air over hydraulic
Blackout Lights: Yes

PERFORMANCE DATA
Fording:
W/Kit: 72 in
WO/Kit: 30 in
Approach Angle: 40 Degrees
Maximum Speed: 58 mph
Range: 350 miles

VEHICLE DATA
Type Classification & Date: Std A, 1963
Replaces: M49A1C
Life Expectancy: 15 Years
Payload: 7,200 lb
Towed Load Allowance: 6,000 lb
Air Transportability: Phase II

EQUIPMENT OPTIONS
Kits: Personnel Heater, Winterization,
Fording, Electric or Air Brakes
Winch: Yes

SHIPPING DATA
Weight: 15,048 lb
Cube: 1,420 cu ft
Ground Clearance: 10 15/16 in

Fuel Servicing truck M49 has a 1200-gallon tank body mounted on the M45 chassis (dual rear wheels). The tank body has 200-, 400-, and 600-gallon internal sections. Side skirts and running board on each side of the tank body are provided with sockets for mounting top bows and a top paulin with end covers for camouflage, when necessary. Tank body sections can be filled or emptied by a delivery pump mounted in the rear compartment. The pump is driven from the power takeoff mounted on the transfer case. The wiring harness for this truck is made in two sections. The chassis section of the chassis wiring harness is insulated against gasoline fumes. The front or cab section of the harness is of normal waterproof construction. No trailer connections or pintle is provided. A 35-foot length of 1 1/2-inch reinforced hose (with a standard 1 1/2-inch, automotive-type nozzle equipped with 100-mesh nozzle screen) is mounted on the roadside of the tank.

Fuel Servicing trucks M49C and M49A1C are similar to the M49 except that a separator and filter are mounted at the side and/or rear of the tank body to filter water and other impurities from aviation fuel. The dispensing pump has been relocated to accomodate the filter and metering equipment. The M49C and M49A1C are the same except for engines (see charts).

The M49A2C is based on the drop-side cargo truck. This difference means that the earlier models have a rectangular wheel well while the M49A2C has a straight base on the rear body (see photos). The exhaust system on M49A2C fuel tanker includes a spark-arrestor-type muffler, which traps exhaust sparks from the engine. M49A2C fuel trucks are equipped with two 600-gallon internal tanks, rather than the three tank system of the earlier models.

With the body changes, the M49A2C overaall height is increased by 4 1/2 inches while ground clearance is reduced by 1 9/16 inches.

The suffix "C" on the model number indicates the installation of an aviation gas filter/seperator kit.

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/M50A2.png
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/M50A2-1.png

PURPOSE: To transport and dispense drinking water.

GENERAL INFORMATION
Nomenclature: TRUCK, TANK: 2 1/2 Ton,
6x6, Water, 1000 Gal, W/Winch, W/E
Model Number: M50A2
Crew/Cab Capacity: 2
NSN: 2320-00-077-1634
LIN: X58504
SSN: D131100
TM: 9-2320-209-Series

CHARACTERISTICS
Horsepower: 140 bhp @ 2,600 rpm
Transmission: Manual; 5 Fwd, 1 Rev
Electrical System: 24 Volt
Tires: 9:00 x 20, 8-ply
Brakes: Air over hydraulic
Blackout Lights: Yes

PERFORMANCE DATA
Fording:
W/Kit: 72 in
WO/Kit: 30 in
Approach Angle: 40 Degrees

VEHICLE DATA
Type Classification & Date: Std B, 1970
Replaced By: M50A3
Life Expectancy: 15 Years
Payload: 400 gal
Towed Load Allowance: 6,000 lb
Air Transportability: Phase II

EQUIPMENT OPTIONS
Kits: Fording, Winterization,
Personnel Heater
Winch: Yes

SHIPPING DATA
Weight: 14,600 lb
Cube: 1,420 cu ft
Ground Clearance: 10 15/16 in

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/M275A2.png
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/M275A2-1.png

PURPOSE: This vehicle is employed strictly as a towing vehicle wherever semitrailers are required to be moved.

GENERAL INFORMATION
Nomenclature: TRUCK. TRACTOR: 2 1/2
Ton, 6x6, W/Low MTD 5th Wheel,
W/Winch
Model Number: M275A2
Crew/Cab Capacity: 2
NSN: 2320-00-077-1641
LIN: X59189
SSN: D131110
TM: 9-2320-209-Series

CHARACTERISTICS
Engine: Multifuel
Horsepower: 140 bhp @ 2,600 rpm
Transmission: Manual; 5 Fwd, 1 Rev
Electrical System: 24 Volt
Tires: 9:00 x 20, 8-ply
Brakes: Air over hydraulic
Blackout Lights: Yes

PERFORMANCE DATA
Fording:
W/Kit: 72 in
WO/Kit: 30 in
Approach Angle: 40 Degrees
Maximum Speed: 58 mph
Range: 350 miles

VEHICLE DATA
Type Classification & Date: Std A, 1963
Replaces: M275A1, M275
Life Expectancy: 15 Years
Payload: 12,000 lb, Off Road: 7,000 lb
Towed Load Allowance: 17,000 lb – Fifth
wheel 6,000 lb-Pintle
Air Transportability: Phase II

EQUIPMENT OPTIONS
Kits: Personnel Heater, Winterization
Fording, Electric or Air Brakes
Winch: Yes

SHIPPING DATA
Weight: 12,600 lb
Cube: 1,060 cu ft
Ground Clearance: 10 15/16 in
Fifth Wheel Height: 52 1/4 in

[ArmySGT.]

Since the KFS is already building 90mm rounds of various types for the 90mm Cockerill gun on their fleets of V-300s

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/M6790mmRecoillessRifle.png
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/M6790mmRecoillessRiflebreechopen.png
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/M6790mmGround.png
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/M6790mmShoulder.png

United States 90-mm Recoilless Rifle M67

SYSTEM
Alternative Designations: INA
Date of Introduction: Late 1940s
Proliferation: At least 11 countries
Description:
Crew: 3 (see Note)
Caliber (mm): 90
Weight (empty) (kg): 16.4
Length (mm): 1.35
Height (ground-mounted) (mm): 432
Mount: Rear bipod and forward monopod
Feed: Manual
Rate of Fire (rd/min):
Maximum: 1 each 6 seconds, not to exceed 5 rounds
Sustained: 1
Fire From Inside Building: No

SIGHTS
Name: M103
Type: Optical, (graduated in 50 m intervals up to 400 m, every
100 m up to 800 m)
Magnification: x3
Field of View (°): 10
Location: Left center
VARIANTS (INA)

AMMUNITION
Name: INA
Type: HE
Range (m):
Effective: 400
Weight (kg): INA

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/90mmM371A1.png
Name: M371E1
Type: HEAT
Range (m):
Aimed: 800
Effective: 420
Penetration:
Armor (mm CE): 350 (E-factor 1539)
Filler: Comp B 1.72 lbs (DPW 1819)
Weight (kg): 4.2
Fuze: Point Detonating
Muzzle Velocity (m/s): 213

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/90mmM590.png
Name: XM590E1
Type: APERS Canister (antipersonnel)
Fill: 2,400 eight-grain flechettes
Range (m):
Effective: 200
Weight (kg): 3.08
Muzzle Velocity (m/s): 381

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/90mmM371.png
Name: M371 Training practice
Type: Target Practice
Range (m): Ballistically identical to the HEAT M371E1
Weight (kg): 3.08
Muzzle Velocity (m/s): 381

NOTES
The M67 90-mm recoilless rifle is a lightweight, portable, direct-fire only, crew-served antitank weapon. It is designed to be fired primarily from the ground using the bipod and monopod, but it may be fired from the shoulder. It is an air-cooled, breech-loaded, single-shot rifle that fires fixed ammunition. Although intended primarily for use as an antitank weapon, the M67 can be used against secondary targets such as gun emplacements and bunkers. It is also very effective in an anti-personnel role. Although no longer produced in the US, the M67 is still in production by South Korea.

The crew consists of a gunner, assistant gunner, and ammo bearer. The M67 can be operated with a crew of only two; however, the third crew member (ammo bearer) is considered necessary for efficient operations. In the absence of an individual to perform the duties assigned to the ammo bearer, the gunner (crew member 1) lays and fires the 90-mm rifle and is the crew leader. He carries the M67 and a pistol. The loader (crew member 2) is responsible for loading the rifle and acts as the gunner when required. He secures ammunition and checks the clearance of the backblast area prior to firing. He carries a pistol, spare parts, cleaning materiel, and 3 rounds of 90-mm. The ammunition bearer (crew member 3) is responsible for securing ammunition and providing security for the recoilless rifle position. He carries an assault rifle and 4 rounds of 90-mm.

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Modern%20MG42.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Maschinengewehr%20MG42%20LIMITED%20to%20500px.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/MG-42%20Maschinengewehr%20LIMITED%20to%20500px.jpg

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/M24%20Stick%20hand%20grenade%20LIMITED%20to%20500p x.jpg

http://www.inert-ord.net/ger03a/gerhgr/stck/

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~junkyard/grenades.html

[.45cultist]

First the KFS army flaws were to give exploitable weaknesses, but their equipment is what was at hand post war. The only cannon arsenal in the U.S. is Watervliet in New York, so I think the proposed Real World 105MM MGS would be a better fit. They would be using left overs for decades until they built an arsenal.(BTW, even mortar barrels are from the same plant. The M249 would be more common than the CETME, as would Glock 9MM pistols. The KFS tanks are less capable versions in armor and the M1 is just an M60 with sloped armor due to lesser facilities and shared components.

[ArmySGT.]

First the KFS army flaws were to give exploitable weaknesses, but their equipment is what was at hand post war. The only cannon arsenal in the U.S. is Watervliet in New York, so I think the proposed Real World 105MM MGS would be a better fit. They would be using left overs for decades until they built an arsenal.(BTW, even mortar barrels are from the same plant. The M249 would be more common than the CETME, as would Glock 9MM pistols. The KFS tanks are less capable versions in armor and the M1 is just an M60 with sloped armor due to lesser facilities and shared components.

The KFS is the Rich Five, a group that went into cryosleep with a portion of their merchant empire. This is manufacturing, refining, even 2000 employees and emerged after the war with a tech level A society in all regards.

Considering they are the technical equals of the Morrow Project to include fusion power.

They went into Cryosleep with the small arms and the capability to repair them or manufacture new. Now they are supposed to have acquired the heavy armor and artillery during the chaos following the War. They had V-300s going in and the capability to make more. So I believe, given these clues and the statements that they have manufactured new replacement M1s and M2s that low rate manufacturing is possible for them to include the massive mandrels and hammer forge to make new barrels.

Low rate manufacture can mean anything to the PD running the campaign from 1 to 1000 per month. I would say the smaller and complex the item the higher rate. More Mini 14s, if they ran the factory at full speed they probably could put out a few hundred per month. A new M1 tank, maybe four with all the small parts and the electronic, turbine, radios, etc.

[ArmySGT.]

First the KFS army flaws were to give exploitable weaknesses, but their equipment is what was at hand post war.

I think they are more to give 4-6 players a chance to survive first contact versus every really being able to overthrow the KFS government.

Partly to highlight the Romanesque feudal government that is meant to consolidate power at the top. Also, just to make them bad people and a motivation to fight them.

The only cannon arsenal in the U.S. is Watervliet in New York, so I think the proposed Real World 105MM MGS would be a better fit. They would be using left overs for decades until they built an arsenal.(BTW, even mortar barrels are from the same plant. That just means the KFS needs a forge large enough and a multi-ton hydraulic hammer plus mandrels to forge barrels over.

The M249 would be more common than the CETME, as would Glock 9MM pistols. The CETMEs were stored preWar, and the M59 for whatever reason, probably because they were not on the market when the module was written or the author was biased against plastic guns.

The KFS tanks are less capable versions in armor and the M1 is just an M60 with sloped armor due to lesser facilities and shared components. Agreed. Though I take it as the KFS just doesn't bother to expend the resources on state of the art M1 tanks when no one else even has a tank. The 90mm gun on the V-300 suffices in 99.9% of encounters.

The Army of the KFS is just lazy, corrupt, poorly led, and poorly trained. However, there are no threats to its exist to be found on any border. Maxwell's militia is to small, Krell to technologically inferior, and the Lonestar Republic is far away. The real threat to the KFS is internal strife or insurrection.

[.45cultist]

Also, most writers have preferences of firearms or too little knowledge of the subject.

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/M718%20Ambulance.jpg

http://olive-drab.com/images/id_m718_375.jpg

http://olive-drab.com/images/id_m718a1_02_700.jpg

PURPOSE: To carry ambulatory and litter patients.

GENERAL INFORMATION
Nomenclature: TRUCK, AMBULANCE:
Front Line, 1/4-Ton, 4x4, W/E
Model Number: M718
Crew Personnel: 5 Total -2 Man Crew, 3-Litter Patients
NSN: 2310-00-782-6056
LIN: X38639
SSN: D151010
TM: 9-2310-218-Series

CHARACTERISTICS
Horsepower: Pre-emission -71 bhp @
4,000 rpm; Emission -65 bhp @ 4,000 rpm
Transmission: Manual; 4 Fwd, 1 Rev
Electrical System: 24 Volt
Tires: 7:00 x 16, 4-ply (6 ply rating)
Brakes: Hydraulic
Blackout Lights: Yes

PERFORMANCE DATA
Fording:
W/Kit: 60 in
WO/Kit: 21 in
Approach Angle: 67 Degrees

VEHICLE DATA
Type Classification & Date: Std B, 1971
Replaced By: M718A1
Life Expectancy: 12 Years
Payload: 900 lb (Including Crew)
Towed Load Allowance: None Authorized (Pintle Hook for Retrieving Vehicle Only)
Air Transportability: Phase 1

EQUIPMENT OPTIONS
Kits: 100 Amp Alternator, Deep Water
Fording
Winch: No

SHIPPING DATA
Curb Weight, Fully Equipped Less Payload and Crew
Front Axle -1,370 lb
Rear Axle -1,380 lb
Total -2,750 lb
Gross Weight, Fully Equipped With Payload and Crew:
Front Axle -1,820 lb
Rear Axle -1,830 lb
Total -3,650 lb
Cube: 455 cu ft (Reduceable to 285 cu ft)
Minimum Ground Clearance: Rear Axle
10.9 in*, Under Chassis 9.0 in* *
*At Combat Loaded Weight

M-718 1/4 Ton Ambulance

The Truck, Ambulance, Frontline, 1/4 ton, 4x4 M718 and M718A1 is the ambulance variant of the M-151 jeep. Produced starting in 1966 for the U.S. military by AM General in models M718 (NSN 2310-00-782-6056) and M718A1 (NSN 2310-00-177-9256). The M718 is based on the M-151 or M-151A1 while the M718A1 is based on the M151A2.


To accommodate patients seated or in litters, the M718 and M718A1 jeeps are longer and higher than the base M151: 143 inches long vs 133 inches long and 76 1/4 inches high vs 71 inches high. The M718 family are also wider due to the side mounted spare tire and gasoline container.

The M-718 1/4 Ton Ambulance was superseded in the mid-1980s by the HMMWV ambulance.

[dragoon500ly]

I think you will be rather surprised by how primitive the electronics in an M1 actually are. These are EMP hardened solid state electronics rooted in the 1970s. The DoD fully expected a nuclear battlefield and prepared the equipment for it. These will ride out a near miss and start right up. The newer digital electronic such as the Blue Force tracker and the SINCGARS radio could be affected if the antennas are not dismounted. If these are then their protected as the hull of the M1 and M2 act as a big faraday cage and conduct the EMP pulse to the earth.

Speaking as a retired DAT, we always trained for if the electronics cut out, the Gunner's Auxiliary Sight allowed a gunner to adjust without the computer, so the KFS using the M1 is doable. The issue becomes can they build the gas turbine, or will they modify the engine pack and use something they can build AND maintain, your mileage may vary.

Doubtful they can produce the special armor plate, but all they need is armor proof against 90mm rounds, just keeping the other units reliable!

[ArmySGT.]

Speaking as a retired DAT, we always trained for if the electronics cut out, the Gunner's Auxiliary Sight allowed a gunner to adjust without the computer, so the KFS using the M1 is doable. The issue becomes can they build the gas turbine, or will they modify the engine pack and use something they can build AND maintain, your mileage may vary.

Doubtful they can produce the special armor plate, but all they need is armor proof against 90mm rounds, just keeping the other units reliable!

Depends on if the KFS has access to prototypes or blueprints of cancelled DoD, DARPA, or defense contractor projects. The Crusader Howitzer was supposed to have a common powerpack with the M1A2, and that a V-12 diesel would be an optional. Now there is talk of the M1A3 and an optional V-12 powerpack for that. Afghanistan and Iraq taught us that there is a need for the turbine in the rapid offensive operations but, in low intensity, COIN, and even in some pure defensive postures the more conservative piston diesel is the better choice.

I was certain there was an auxiliary sight for the M1 gunner but, I wasn't sure of the type, training, or how used. Thanks.

[dragoon500ly]

Depends on if the KFS has access to prototypes or blueprints of cancelled DoD, DARPA, or defense contractor projects. The Crusader Howitzer was supposed to have a common powerpack with the M1A2, and that a V-12 diesel would be an optional. Now there is talk of the M1A3 and an optional V-12 powerpack for that. Afghanistan and Iraq taught us that there is a need for the turbine in the rapid offensive operations but, in low intensity, COIN, and even in some pure defensive postures the more conservative piston diesel is the better choice.

I was certain there was an auxiliary sight for the M1 gunner but, I wasn't sure of the type, training, or how used. Thanks.

The Gunner's Auxiliary Sight or GAS, requires significant training to master, the gunner has to compute target speed and the range, it most definitely NOT a "one round, one hit" system. Plan on two-four rounds for a moving target, one-three rounds to walk into a stationary target. The GAS depends on standard ammunition types, depending on what the KFS can build, they may even replace the sight with something similar to that used in world war two tanks (stereoscopic sights).

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/Project%20Vehicles/pby5a_1.gif
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/Project%20Vehicles/v06a.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/Project%20Vehicles/v06b.jpg

General characteristics
Crew: 10 — pilot, co-pilot, bow turret gunner, flight engineer, radio operator, navigator, radar operator, two waist gunners, ventral gunner
Length: 63 ft 10 7/16 in (19.46 m)
Wingspan: 104 ft 0 in (31.70 m)
Height: 21 ft 1 in (6.15 m)
Wing area: 1,400 ft² (130 m²)
Empty weight: 20,910 lb (9,485 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 35,420 lb (16,066 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney R-1830-92 Twin Wasp radial engines, 1,200 hp (895 kW each) each
Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0309
Drag area: 43.26 ft² (4.02 m²)
Aspect ratio: 7.73

Performance
Maximum speed: 196 mph (314 km/h)
Cruise speed: 125 mph (201 km/h)
Range: 2,520 mi (4,030 km)
Service ceiling: 15,800 ft (4,000 m)
Rate of climb: 1,000 ft/min (5.1 m/s)
Wing loading: 25.3 lb/ft² (123.6 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.034 hp/lb (0.056 kW/kg)

Lift-to-drag ratio: 11.9

Armament

3 .30 cal (7.62 mm) machine guns (two in nose turret, one in ventral hatch at tail)
2 .50 cal (12.7 mm) machine guns (one in each waist blister)
4,000 lb (1,814 kg) of bombs or depth charges; torpedo racks were also available

Salvaged from a coastal airfield in Mississippi are two PBY-5A by merchants of the Kentucky Free States. The merchants came back with one of the engines on a horse drawn cart and some crude sketches of the amphibious aircraft. Technicians, descendants of the Two Thousand, were glad to accept the engine and trade it for gold. The merchants were persuaded to escort a salvage operation to the area for gold and some New Manhattan real estate. These aircraft have been to badly damaged be exposure to UV light and salt air to ever fly again. The KFS is using them as templates along with plans and designs from library sources.

In a year, the first model will be ready for test flights in preparation for an aerial reconnaissance unit of 12 aircraft to start. Once this unit has been operational and difficulties sorted out an additional number of exclusive civilian aircraft will serve the needs of the upper caste.

[mmartin798]

Just a nit pick really:

These aircraft have been to badly damaged be exposure to UV light and salt air to ever fly again.

These are metal skinned aircraft and UV should not be a problem, other than windscreens. Oxidation would be the problem here.

[ArmySGT.]

Just a nit pick really:



These are metal skinned aircraft and UV should not be a problem, other than windscreens. Oxidation would be the problem here.

There is enough rubber and plastic to make that a problem. Tires, seals, acrylic windows, the paint itself.

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/Project%20Vehicles/markv.gif

3589

[ArmySGT.]

Stealth edit.


Began adding .pdf attachments to some entries.

[Project_Sardonicus]

A few thoughts on the KFS refit.

The KFS are not what we would consider a modern military outfit. Where the aim would be generally to give a small body of professional soldiers the absolute maximum amount of effective fire power they can carry. And if need be reload them by helicopter or airdrop.
Most rifle squads especially if mounted in an IFV or APC have by the standards of generation that came before a truly eye watering amount of fire power.

The KFS are more like a colonial era paramilitary/military unit. At that point the emphasis is on reliability, small units covering large areas on horse back with limited resupply and command worried they'd blow most of their hunting for game or shooting irresponsibly.

As such I think KFS would still be issuing Mini14s. But with a smaller clip of maybe as little as 10 round capacity and with a key lock on the selector to ensure it could only be set for semi or fully auto. Whereas Cetmes would be issued they would be specialised pieces of kit, for small units of highly trusted and reliable troops.

Also I suspect the KFS would build manually guided ATGMs. They're a much lighter and efficient route to either building hefty artillery guns weighing hundreds of pounds of steel. Or having to build dozens of inaccurate rockets or mortar shells.

It would be something like an early SS11 or Sagger. But radio guided (the technology is simple why waste all that copper on wire guidance wires?) The idea being a KFS unit with a couple of units in a truck or one in a jeep could park a mile or two from the target such as enemy encampment. Take their time setting up and then pick off useful targets such as guard towers, parked vehicles etc.

One unit doing the work of a dozen or so mortar tubes.

I like this way the KFS has a sliding level of increasing threat. Morrow teams maybe able to jam or take control of primitive radio controlled ATGMs. KFS units with semi autos soon unlock the full auto setting and hand out 40 round magazines.

[.45cultist]

If the Iowa tank plant and the Anniston Depot are under KFS control, the M1 makes sense as does the M2.

I figure the KFS and most anyone doing any fighting does so in the 18th to mid 19th century style. From the time after crops are planted up until crops need to be harvested. Agriculture being rather labor intensive. I would not doubt that any KFS units supplement their rations (in the corrupt KFS) by growing their own. KFS units might even place a premium on capturing pre-war farming equipment and healthy livestock.

Back to weapons. I think you're right on just using stock 1980's equipment without writing stats for something new. The M35 stats and the M151 stats are in "Liberation at Riverton".

I think that the KFS should be fielding M16s and M4s unless, those are worn out. If they are taking over M1 tanks, M2 IFVs, and M102 howitzers from former army and marine units then why don't they have the small arms too?

So yeah, KFS should have M16A2s. I think it was writers bias. Someone on staff really hates the M16. No reason that the Rich Five can't have the resources and machinery to produce more. If you can make a fusion plant, what is an M16?

I would have expected simpler vehicles even some WW2 and WW1 models, not even American ones at that. Those would be cheaper to make, cheaper to operate, simpler to repair, and easier to operate. The easier to operate would be a factor when you are intentionally limiting education to keep the masses controllable. To the point of fielding things like the Hetzer (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/jagdpanzer-38t-hetzer.htm).
For commercial, emergency use, the partial wood trucks like the WWII Opel-Blitz would allow a rapid, cheap modern transport system.

[.45cultist]

A few thoughts on the KFS refit.

The KFS are not what we would consider a modern military outfit. Where the aim would be generally to give a small body of professional soldiers the absolute maximum amount of effective fire power they can carry. And if need be reload them by helicopter or airdrop.
Most rifle squads especially if mounted in an IFV or APC have by the standards of generation that came before a truly eye watering amount of fire power.

The KFS are more like a colonial era paramilitary/military unit. At that point the emphasis is on reliability, small units covering large areas on horse back with limited resupply and command worried they'd blow most of their hunting for game or shooting irresponsibly.

As such I think KFS would still be issuing Mini14s. But with a smaller clip of maybe as little as 10 round capacity and with a key lock on the selector to ensure it could only be set for semi or fully auto. Whereas Cetmes would be issued they would be specialised pieces of kit, for small units of highly trusted and reliable troops.

Also I suspect the KFS would build manually guided ATGMs. They're a much lighter and efficient route to either building hefty artillery guns weighing hundreds of pounds of steel. Or having to build dozens of inaccurate rockets or mortar shells.

It would be something like an early SS11 or Sagger. But radio guided (the technology is simple why waste all that copper on wire guidance wires?) The idea being a KFS unit with a couple of units in a truck or one in a jeep could park a mile or two from the target such as enemy encampment. Take their time setting up and then pick off useful targets such as guard towers, parked vehicles etc.

One unit doing the work of a dozen or so mortar tubes.

I like this way the KFS has a sliding level of increasing threat. Morrow teams maybe able to jam or take control of primitive radio controlled ATGMs. KFS units with semi autos soon unlock the full auto setting and hand out 40 round magazines.
Or issue the AC556's to NCO's and Officers only, keeping Mini14's for average troops.

[gamerguy]

Also I suspect the KFS would build manually guided ATGMs. They're a much lighter and efficient route to either building hefty artillery guns weighing hundreds of pounds of steel. Or having to build dozens of inaccurate rockets or mortar shells.

It would be something like an early SS11 or Sagger. But radio guided (the technology is simple why waste all that copper on wire guidance wires?) The idea being a KFS unit with a couple of units in a truck or one in a jeep could park a mile or two from the target such as enemy encampment. Take their time setting up and then pick off useful targets such as guard towers, parked vehicles etc.

One unit doing the work of a dozen or so mortar tubes.

I like this way the KFS has a sliding level of increasing threat. Morrow teams maybe able to jam or take control of primitive radio controlled ATGMs. KFS units with semi autos soon unlock the full auto setting and hand out 40 round magazines.

The early ATGMs would be launched from near but not too close to the operators. They would then fly a path which would intersect a line drawn from the operator's position to the targets. The missile would have a flare in the tail (seen only from behind) and the operator would keep the flare and target lined up until they hit. The operator's control would be a joy stick to guide the missile. This much I know.

Once the missile turns to track the target it would fly in a line which could be traced back to the operator. I believe this was how the Israilis determined where to shoot to surspress the operators and cause the missiles to loose control. They kept some tanks on over watch whose duty it was to engage the missile operators while the rest of the unit advanced.

Once the operator aquires the missile in their sites they become vulnerable to counter battery fire. I think to initially engage the missile there was a wider field of view on the sights which was switched, once the operator had control, to a higher magnification. In order to aquire and track the missiles could not go too fast giving time to react on long range shots, IF the defender is ready. Simple radio controls would be easy to make from discrete components. Based on your timeline (edition) of the game what level of manufacturing would be avaialable to make these components? My assumption is the later the war the less likely anyone in North America could make these and the harder it would be to star and operation up. Lots of specialized components. Wire might be vauluable but it might be the only workable system.

Defenses could range from spaced armour plates, heavy forms of chain link fencing, rebar or slat armour. If we are talking an area close to a "hot" border a lot of methods of overcoming these missiles may already be in place. Mortars are a little harder to protect against.

[Project_Sardonicus]

The early ATGMs would be launched from near but not too close to the operators. They would then fly a path which would intersect a line drawn from the operator's position to the targets. The missile would have a flare in the tail (seen only from behind) and the operator would keep the flare and target lined up until they hit. The operator's control would be a joy stick to guide the missile. This much I know.

Once the missile turns to track the target it would fly in a line which could be traced back to the operator. I believe this was how the Israilis determined where to shoot to surspress the operators and cause the missiles to loose control. They kept some tanks on over watch whose duty it was to engage the missile operators while the rest of the unit advanced.

Once the operator aquires the missile in their sites they become vulnerable to counter battery fire. I think to initially engage the missile there was a wider field of view on the sights which was switched, once the operator had control, to a higher magnification. In order to aquire and track the missiles could not go too fast giving time to react on long range shots, IF the defender is ready. Simple radio controls would be easy to make from discrete components. Based on your timeline (edition) of the game what level of manufacturing would be avaialable to make these components? My assumption is the later the war the less likely anyone in North America could make these and the harder it would be to star and operation up. Lots of specialized components. Wire might be vauluable but it might be the only workable system.

Defenses could range from spaced armour plates, heavy forms of chain link fencing, rebar or slat armour. If we are talking an area close to a "hot" border a lot of methods of overcoming these missiles may already be in place. Mortars are a little harder to protect against.

Pretty much my thought process. The KFS I think have always been the top level for technology development, so I guess if they're building their own radios, possibly old vacumn tube technology. Then it's not a huge leap to be building their own radio controlled aircraft or rockets.

As for the KFS most of the time they're up against enemies at a 19th century level of technology at best. It would be like wondering what would the results of a Korean/Vietnam era US army went head to head with say the British army in the Crimean War. The results being dare I say it messy for the less technological adapted one.

Something as simple as a biplane with an aimer with a radio and binoculars never mind an actual armed aeroplane could cause havoc when paired up with long range artillery.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Mind you probably the biggest advantage the KFS has it's an industrial society, including agriculture.

So it's soldiers are better fed, bigger, stronger more alert with better night vision than their foes.

I suppose it sounds silly. But a KFS unit on several thousand calories a day would be able to see better in the dark. Whilst a foe on subsistence rations would more than likely be struggling to stay awake on guard duty after dark.

Secondly most other forces are either handloading their ammunition (including making the gunpowder and caps), or using finite stocks. The KFS most likely has a factory or two churning out reliable 5.56 and 9mm all year round. Even a smallish one would be producing 100,000s if not 1,000,000s of rounds.

Meaning that even the most basic KFS grunt might have fired 200-300 rounds in training. Whilst his most elite foe might only fire 50-100 rounds a year.



KFS soldiers would not only be better shots, but more used to discipline under fire and fire and manoeuvre.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Or issue the AC556's to NCO's and Officers only, keeping Mini14's for average troops.

Yeh I could picture that. I was thinking how when the British army first distributed the Lee Metford bolt action, they included a little chain blocking the magazine release. So soldiers would have to load them more slowly and would only take them off in emergency circumstances. Similarly the old British Imperial shotgun was the bizarre Greener, a weapon with a single shot capacity and multiple safeties to make sure it couldn't be used if stolen without the right ammunition.

[ArmySGT.]

the KFS is the Rih Five. Being Tech level A and able to produce or reproduce any technology up to the time of the War in either 3rd or 4th edition.

The Rich Five did have cryotube tech prior to the War and gained Fusion through taken TMP equipment in the chaos of the early war years.

Prior to the War they appear to have stockpiled Mini-14s, M59 pistols, CETME Machineguns, and rifle grenades. Post war added M102 105mm howitzers, M1 Abrams tanks, M2 Bradley IFVs, M35 2 1/2 ton trucks, and M151 jeeps. The trucks and jeeps might have been stockpiled..... that is unclear. The big prize is the post war capture and reproduction of the P47 Thunderbolt fighters.

[ArmySGT.]

Meaning that even the most basic KFS grunt might have fired 200-300 rounds in training. Whilst his most elite foe might only fire 50-100 rounds a year.



KFS soldiers would not only be better shots, but more used to discipline under fire and fire and manoeuvre.

That would be more than a non-Infantry soldier going through basic training today.

[.45cultist]

That would be more than a non-Infantry soldier going through basi training today.

With the bad habits, only motivated troops(Spartan members) would even try.

[ArmySGT.]

With the bad habits, only motivated troops(Spartan members) would even try.

So the 1970's Draft Army, then?

[Matt W]

After re-reading "Bullets and Bluegrass", it is my impression that the KFS uses multifuel rotary engines for all its vehicles (including the V300, the Bradley and both M60 and M1 tanks. I assume that these "rotary engines" are based on a version of the Wankel engine

(Bullets & Bluegrass page. 9 "All Army and Air Force vehicles use multifuel rotary engines capable of running on virtually any flammable fuel)

However, the powerplant used by the P47 "Thunderbolt" is unspecified. It may simply be a copy of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800. As far as I know, nobody has built a wankel engine with enough power to replace the R-2800, but it may be possible.

I did a little work on a KFS helicopter unit
https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/2007/07/20/other-aircraft-of-the-kfs-2-heavy-lift-helicopter/

and this is to "rescue" crashed planes

https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/2007/07/21/other-aircraft-of-the-kfs-3-heavy-lift-helicopter/

I'm sure that the KFS military would REALLY like a versatile twin engine transport, like a DHC-4 Caribou or even a DC-3 Dakota - but these are not cheap...

Also, it might be amusing to have the KFS build its own hovercraft. "If the Morrow Project has them...We should have them!"

The KFS probably has the capability to build a sizeable hovercraft like the the API https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hovercraft_Corporation_AP1-88

[dragoon500ly]

The early ATGMs would be launched from near but not too close to the operators. They would then fly a path which would intersect a line drawn from the operator's position to the targets. The missile would have a flare in the tail (seen only from behind) and the operator would keep the flare and target lined up until they hit. The operator's control would be a joy stick to guide the missile. This much I know.

Once the missile turns to track the target it would fly in a line which could be traced back to the operator. I believe this was how the Israilis determined where to shoot to surspress the operators and cause the missiles to loose control. They kept some tanks on over watch whose duty it was to engage the missile operators while the rest of the unit advanced.

Once the operator aquires the missile in their sites they become vulnerable to counter battery fire. I think to initially engage the missile there was a wider field of view on the sights which was switched, once the operator had control, to a higher magnification. In order to aquire and track the missiles could not go too fast giving time to react on long range shots, IF the defender is ready. Simple radio controls would be easy to make from discrete components. Based on your timeline (edition) of the game what level of manufacturing would be avaialable to make these components? My assumption is the later the war the less likely anyone in North America could make these and the harder it would be to star and operation up. Lots of specialized components. Wire might be vauluable but it might be the only workable system.

Defenses could range from spaced armour plates, heavy forms of chain link fencing, rebar or slat armour. If we are talking an area close to a "hot" border a lot of methods of overcoming these missiles may already be in place. Mortars are a little harder to protect against.

The anti-Sagger drill for the 1970-80s US Army was for the tank that first spotted the launch signature to immediately fire whatever was in the gun tube at the site, then reload with HE or WP and start firing to either side, the other tank in the section would engage with coax and HMG. At the same time, drivers would engage the vehicle smoke generators and make a hard left or right turn. The tank commander would also fire the first bank of projectiles from the smoke launchers.

The intent was to kill, wound or suppress the missile operator, throw off the operator`s sight picture with a rapid and extreme movement, and finally to obscure the area with smoke, allowing the tanks to use their night vision/thermal sights to locate the operator.

This specific movement was intended for the two tank "light" section bounding forward to contact. The overwatching three tank "heavy" selection would immediately empty their gun tubes to the left and right of the launch sir and then switch to HE and WP rounds. With a half dozen APDS/HEAT rounds, followed up another volley of HE/WP rounds and several bursts of machine gun would throw off the operator.

At the company level, calls would be made for battalion mortars to "hip shoot" the area, followed by a fire mission from the supporting artillery battery.

The Soviets had a similar anti-missile defence. This was what made ATGMs such a pain in the ass, it wasn't the tracked launcher or the man portable missiles, it was the jeep mounted launcher that would fire a round, forcing the anti missile defence and its waste of time in suppressing and deploying, then clearing the area and redeploying for the next movement. In the meantime, the jeep would run back another 1-2 kilometres and start the whole process over and over and over, buying time.

[gamerguy]

The Soviets had a similar anti-missile defence. This was what made ATGMs such a pain in the ass, it wasn't the tracked launcher or the man portable missiles, it was the jeep mounted launcher that would fire a round, forcing the anti missile defence and its waste of time in suppressing and deploying, then clearing the area and redeploying for the next movement. In the meantime, the jeep would run back another 1-2 kilometres and start the whole process over and over and over, buying time.

Ha! As I was reading it before I got to the last line all I could think of was a launch of dummy missiles or blind un guided launches followed up by real launches after the target(s) has unloaded/spent ammo and smoke dischargers and were blinded/engaged and might miss the follow up missiles. A tactic I used in Air to Air gaming launch two missiles, while the target was engaged in the first it put them out of position to deal with the second.

[gamerguy]

After re-reading "Bullets and Bluegrass", it is my impression that the KFS uses multifuel rotary engines for all its vehicles (including the V300, the Bradley and both M60 and M1 tanks. I assume that these "rotary engines" are based on a version of the Wankel engine

(Bullets & Bluegrass page. 9 "All Army and Air Force vehicles use multifuel rotary engines capable of running on virtually any flammable fuel)

However, the powerplant used by the P47 "Thunderbolt" is unspecified. It may simply be a copy of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800. As far as I know, nobody has built a wankel engine with enough power to replace the R-2800, but it may be possible.



At the time the adventures were originally written John Deere was working on this motor. It was all the rage in the technical journals. I just searched for it. It was a complete no go for all the reasons Mazda spent years and billions getting a OK version of the Wankel into cars. Major hurdles to overcome and a company with deep pockets like JD gave up. Part of the concept was for aircraft use. I can't find power but it was supposed to be tank engine power levels which would have made it suitable for P-47 use.

Just another batch of unobtanium. Unless your project relies heavily on fantasy this is a no go. Also why P-47s? Yeah the game designer had a fetish is the obvious but there are so many more reasonable choices. Easier and cheaper to produce, etc....



I did a little work on a KFS helicopter unit
https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/2007/07/20/other-aircraft-of-the-kfs-2-heavy-lift-helicopter/

and this is to "rescue" crashed planes

https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/2007/07/21/other-aircraft-of-the-kfs-3-heavy-lift-helicopter/

I'm sure that the KFS military would REALLY like a versatile twin engine transport, like a DHC-4 Caribou or even a DC-3 Dakota - but these are not cheap...

Also, it might be amusing to have the KFS build its own hovercraft. "If the Morrow Project has them...We should have them!"

The KFS probably has the capability to build a sizeable hovercraft like the the API https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hovercraft_Corporation_AP1-88


Hovercraft are HELLISHLY LOUD. If forces are expecting it they can hide or set up suitable defenses long before the hovercraft arrives. In 'Nam they only used about a half dozen and called it a day. They could get around the Delta fast and bring troops and reinforcements OVER OPEN CALM WATER. Yes they can go over muskeg or swamps UNLESS they are trees in them thar swamps. Anything which can damage the skirts ends the ride. Armour the skirts they become less flexible and less useful over anything above glass smooth water.

Use them in swamps guided by locals VERY aware of the conditions (think ship pilots used when freighters enter harbours or traverse rivers). Use them on sea shores or vary large lakes like the great lakes and yes they work. Middle of the Eastern US where can they operate for any great area? Frankly other than "I gotta have me on" your swamp boats (whatever they are called, flat bottom car motor spinning an aircraft prop in a cage) would be cheaper, as fast and can be sized around for similar capabilities.



I am sorry but I think so much of this post war technology is BS. We only have the ability to do almost all but very basic manufacturing because of the global supply system. It has less to do with left hand widgets are now only made in this town in China (although any game set after 2000 to 2010 would be there) than it is supplies of raw resources would not be flowing, and those that would, would be so limited in quantities almost nothing would be produced. I really think this is one area all MP people like to ignore.

Immediately post war there will be stockpiles of resources in any minor city. You could get things made for the first 10 or 20 years. Then either the stockpiles will be depleted or more likely they will be lost as just getting food for tomorrow takes all your effort and attention. Buildings collapse, mother earth overgrows almost all that remains, etc..

Even the lowest tech like vacuum tubes takes resources that won't be there. Transistors, forget it. Too much stuff is needed. Over the years anything working will be used up. That surviving Radio Shack you been picking over for SCRs for a whatever will be empty and overgrown in 25 years. You are not getting that unobtanium from Walla Walla land anymore. None, nada, period!

So if you really come out 150 years on and WORLD WIDE commerce is NOT back to where is was at the start of the 20th century AT LEAST you will be lucky to have basic iron and steel making, plows, steam, waterwheels and muscle. Cars, forget it. Horse and buggies. Tanks, APCs, planes, fantasy. I don't care how high tech you are you ain't got the stuff to make it, mine it or refine it. At best deposits are in North America of exploitable minerals. Provided they were not where the big glowy parts were. Look into the processes needed to explore (less of an issue), obtain (in viable quantities), process and manufacture any raw resource.

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade but nobody seems to want to face this. TMP comes out of its bolt holes they can be gods. KFC or whatever they are called are riding horses using 50 year old worn out guns with lots of ammo they are not allowed to fire through because the guns gotta last another 100 years so you are only allowed to fire 10 shots per year. OK brass, lead, iron gunpowder can be made. Where is the USEABLE quantities of manganese, niobium, chrome, boron etc. needed to produce the steel for the guns or the machine tools needed to produce the guns coming from?

[dragoon500ly]

Ha! As I was reading it before I got to the last line all I could think of was a launch of dummy missiles or blind un guided launches followed up by real launches after the target(s) has unloaded/spent ammo and smoke dischargers and were blinded/engaged and might miss the follow up missiles. A tactic I used in Air to Air gaming launch two missiles, while the target was engaged in the first it put them out of position to deal with the second.

There were simulators issued that could duplicate a TOW/Dragon launch, in cases of 12.

They favourite tactic was to fire a series of 2-4 and in the middle of the series, fire the real missile and after the hit bogie out of the area.

[dragoon500ly]

In the armoured cavalry squadrons, the cavalry platoons would deploy with a M-901 TOW track and a M-113 Dragon track for close protection. The TOEs would fire at 2-3000 meters, often remaining for.a.second shot.

The four tank section would deploy a two tank element about 1,500 meters out and would rapid fire 2-3 rounds and fall back to the next fighting position, the second tank element would repeat the process while toe TOWS would reload and engage or fall back to an overwatching position.

The intent was to.keep the Soviets off balance, picking off 2-3 vehicles each time and forcing them to deploy and call in support.

[ArmySGT.]

So if you really come out 150 years on and WORLD WIDE commerce is NOT back to where is was at the start of the 20th century AT LEAST you will be lucky to have basic iron and steel making, plows, steam, waterwheels and muscle. Cars, forget it. Horse and buggies. Tanks, APCs, planes, fantasy. I don't care how high tech you are you ain't got the stuff to make it, mine it or refine it. At best deposits are in North America of exploitable minerals. Provided they were not where the big glowy parts were. Look into the processes needed to explore (less of an issue), obtain (in viable quantities), process and manufacture any raw resource.

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade but nobody seems to want to face this. TMP comes out of its bolt holes they can be gods. KFC or whatever they are called are riding horses using 50 year old worn out guns with lots of ammo they are not allowed to fire through because the guns gotta last another 100 years so you are only allowed to fire 10 shots per year. OK brass, lead, iron gunpowder can be made. Where is the USEABLE quantities of manganese, niobium, chrome, boron etc. needed to produce the steel for the guns or the machine tools needed to produce the guns coming from?

With any other faction, I would agree with you.

Not in the case of the Kentucky Free States, also known as the Rich Five.

Five Industrialist with a Robber Baron attitude went into cryosleep with two thousand loyal followers and preserved industrial capacity.

The KFS is the only functioning government above small town; and an actual Nation State. They have no problem using slaves and condemned criminals to salvage material out of radioactive hot spots or other lethal areas.

The KFS preserved the people with the knowledge and the skills to make or refine just about anything. It is the only other Tech level A group besides the Morrow Project, in game. While it is true they are scavengers, it is also true that they are manufacturers too. All very low rate and on a, as needed, schedule.

[.45cultist]

With any other faction, I would agree with you.

Not in the case of the Kentucky Free States, also known as the Rich Five.

Five Industrialist with a Robber Baron attitude went into cryosleep with two thousand loyal followers and preserved industrial capacity.

The KFS is the only functioning government above small town; and an actual Nation State. They have no problem using slaves and condemned criminals to salvage material out of radioactive hot spots or other lethal areas.

The KFS preserved the people with the knowledge and the skills to make or refine just about anything. It is the only other Tech level A group besides the Morrow Project, in game. While it is true they are scavengers, it is also true that they are manufacturers too. All very low rate and on a, as needed, schedule.

The KFS could easily machine new small arms and ammunition. Using a M series multi-fuel truck engine design to convert the M60 diesel to multi fuel is also doable. They are reverse engineering with modern resources. The rifles are old because they won't replace them, not because they can't replace them.

[gamerguy]

With any other faction, I would agree with you.

Not in the case of the Kentucky Free States, also known as the Rich Five.

Five Industrialist with a Robber Baron attitude went into cryosleep with two thousand loyal followers and preserved industrial capacity.

The KFS is the only functioning government above small town; and an actual Nation State. They have no problem using slaves and condemned criminals to salvage material out of radioactive hot spots or other lethal areas.

The KFS preserved the people with the knowledge and the skills to make or refine just about anything. It is the only other Tech level A group besides the Morrow Project, in game. While it is true they are scavengers, it is also true that they are manufacturers too. All very low rate and on a, as needed, schedule.


As far as the group it would have to be beyond Morrow Project in size and capacity. All the discussions we have had about keeping the MP off people's radar would be magnified by an order or more magnitude. PLUS it is all being put in a limited are as opposed to MP's dispersion. To pull this off they would be spending something on the order of a trillion dollars. So would TMP.

To manufacture what you are talking about you are talking a hundred thousand knowledgeable people plus all the dependants. You are building a new city somewhere which will quickly have an SSBN something pointed at it.

Two thousand loyal followers gets you the managers for your operation, not the people with the hands on skills. Can't get that from books.

I work in the manufacturing industry and know how many knowledgeable people it takes to do a little manufacturing. The scale you describe (M1s, unlimited ammo, planes) takes layers upon layers of interlocking skills and manufacturing infrastructure. Yes a handful of guys can probably cover all the steel hardening required (my area of knowledge). But you need groups of specialized maintenance personnel (who we just phone and wait a week or two to show up), guys making parts and supplies for our machines, a regular and reliable source of natural gas, propane, and all that entails (lots more people equipment companies, support companies), chemicals, steel, pipe, tooling, and on and on. All these people don't feed anyone but need to be fed as does their families, barbers, plumbers, ...

All this ain't hiding in some little hole in the ground. What you are describing is North America. Yes you are talking a dozen tanks not thousands but the infrastructure of that scale is needed for so much of it.

Unless it was my PMs interpretation I was under the impression Krell was running a large (multi-state) empire. Based on my interactions manufacture was limited to pre WWII tech from salvage.

Please note I was a player not a PM and had/have nothing but the original 1979? pre publication loose leaf binder manual. I made it a point not to ruin the fun of discovery.

My issue is keeping this from turning into high fantasy. You guys are getting so wrapped up in the tech gizmos to very high levels of detail but to my mind are missing "the big picture". I may be wrong, it happened once before, all I am trying to do is have you stop and think about the real world implications. TMP is frankly a science fantasy game. Everything BEM is supposed to have brought back is that so truthfully letting some other faction(s) have some degree of it in the game is fair I suppose. I can live with TMPs goodies just in my mind it was supposed to be the special ones. How long before NK had a buried clan of Kim group, etc..

If you also hold the assumption BEM knew the project was going on in 150 years and lied about the 6 month to 5 year time frame then another can of worms is both opened and closed.

The order of manufacturing support you envision is orders of magnitude beyond TMP. TMP made HAM suits, the Mars vehicles, sci one yes and had to hide those in plain site as "failed prototypes". We dumped them in the ocean/desert/buried them when they failed. BUT TMP wasn't making the steel, machine tools, optics, electronics, chemicals... these were bought from XYZ corp. Now you have to create XYZ corp as part of KFS because there is no XYZ to buy from anymore.

[gamerguy]

The KFS could easily machine new small arms and ammunition. Using a M series multi-fuel truck engine design to convert the M60 diesel to multi fuel is also doable. They are reverse engineering with modern resources. The rifles are old because they won't replace them, not because they can't replace them.

With what? Who is making the specialized steel for the guns, doing the heat treating, sourcing vanadium, providing cutting tools? All this and vast more resources have to be part of KFS. What "modern resources"? This is all being done after the big balloon goes up. How many profs does your university have to teach all this? You have UniversitIES right? It is generations we are talking here.

I loved this game from before it was published but as per my other very long winded rant it is morphing into wilder science fantasy to meet the needs of a couple adventures.

If I am becoming a big thorn let me know and I will shut up. I have been out of it for thirty years so what say do I have?

[mmartin798]

The order of manufacturing support you envision is orders of magnitude beyond TMP. TMP made HAM suits, the Mars vehicles, sci one yes and had to hide those in plain site as "failed prototypes". We dumped them in the ocean/desert/buried them when they failed. BUT TMP wasn't making the steel, machine tools, optics, electronics, chemicals... these were bought from XYZ corp. Now you have to create XYZ corp as part of KFS because there is no XYZ to buy from anymore.

You hold a much different view of TMP than I think some here do. BEM approached various industrialist to form the Counsel of Tomorrow (CoT). TMP was just a small thing that CoT built using a fraction of their vast mining, manufacturing, research and development capacity. Some of the gear for TMP came from working examples and plans that BEM brought back back from a future and were duplicated by CoT skunkworks. As far as I can tell, TMP just selected and trained people to use cool gear made by the CoT. TMP really doesn't make things itself. So the CoT having members like US Steel or Nucor is not impossible. You can add Bethlehem Steel if you like the 3rd edition timeline. Given that and organizations that have a large manufacturing presence like Boeing, Lockheed, GM, Ford, Motorola, Raytheon, Bristol-Meyer, Pfizer, Dow Corning; steel pre-war and manufacturing capability is not much of an issue. Granted, CoT members knew that most of their employees were going to die, but thanks to their efforts the reconstruction had a chance.

[gamerguy]

Fair enough so TMP is even a smaller entity. More of a design house which outsources manufacturing. KFS has be all the above.

[RandyT0001]

Gamerguy, basically you are saying that the highest technology level in limited use would max out at mid-19th century. Most areas would be stuck in mid-18th century to early 19th century, correct?

Do you think that there would be small, isolated communities (less than 20sq miles controlled area) with very little trade or do you think that there would be bigger city-states (few thousands of sq miles of domain) with greater trade along rivers, maintained dirt/gravel roads and early railroads with early steam engines?

[gamerguy]

Gamerguy, basically you are saying that the highest technology level in limited use would max out at mid-19th century. Most areas would be stuck in mid-18th century to early 19th century, correct?

Do you think that there would be small, isolated communities (less than 20sq miles controlled area) with very little trade or do you think that there would be bigger city-states (few hundred sq miles of domain) with greater trade along rivers, maintained dirt/gravel roads and early railroads with early steam engines?

Good questions. I think the "background" tech level would be mid 19th C. Think of the steam engines which travelled around providing the mechanical muscle in the mid 19th to early 20th C. Smaller towns could have a steam driven power house providing electricity to the local few along with a basic water supply, for example.

As to trade I think that is based on law levels more than tech. As I see it "governments like KFS, Krell, Maxwell, etc. would allow freer trade within their borders. Transport using steam trains or steam road vehicles would be able to travel over areas. Slow though. Gypsy truckers? Steel road wheels, steam power plants and travel in convoys like the pioneers settling the west or convoys plying the north atlantic in WWI/II or the caravans of the silk road. Strength, and safety, in numbers with hired guns or better still military muscle as members of the gypsy tribe(s) themselves.

IIRC there are a number of city states based around universities. Also based around viable logical resource extraction and purification locations. Think the road warrior's gasoline clan. No pipelines for transport so tanker trucks, or lake freighters, gypsy sailors.

I think the small isolated communities could only exist with a resource to provide income for protection or in some kind of mutual support organization, a proto state perhaps? They would have to be pretty isolated with not much around them so few people would be willing to spend the resources to get to them. This assumes bands of roving thugs with no resources except extraction of resources from those they raid.

Then do those thugs provide a reason for the communities to band together into prototype mini states providing mutual self defense to form, or do the thugs themselves become the organ of the state and control these isolated communities building themselves into the next Krell, KFS, etc.? To me the first groups would be most likely to form something akin to democratic or feudal government over time. The later feudal or dictatorships.

Makes you think about how the larger groups started and allowed or were forced into some form of government.

[RandyT0001]

Gamerguy, going beyond mid-19th century tech runs into a significant 'brick wall' of advancement. Want to know what it is? Natural rubber. Natural rubber only comes from a large tropical tree which the great powers of the mid 19th century - British, French, German, Japanese, and American set up plantations to meet supply demands for growing and development nations. Any rubber like object that did not include natural rubber generally did not last for long, breaking down by use or deterioration within a year or less of time. No rubber hoses, no tires, etc. for greater advancement.

If you have significant states in North America - Maxwell's Militia, the confederacy of the Rich Five states (I reject the KFS module because the author based it on a unrealistic, fascist society from a book he had read), Texas Republic, and Frozen Chosen you have trade, between them and with overseas nations that have rebuilt or established themselves after 150 years. To me the MP teams do not wake up in uncivilized lands but in an unknown and unfamiliar civilization of the post war world reality.

[ArmySGT.]

The order of manufacturing support you envision is orders of magnitude beyond TMP. TMP made HAM suits, the Mars vehicles, sci one yes and had to hide those in plain site as "failed prototypes". We dumped them in the ocean/desert/buried them when they failed. BUT TMP wasn't making the steel, machine tools, optics, electronics, chemicals... these were bought from XYZ corp. Now you have to create XYZ corp as part of KFS because there is no XYZ to buy from anymore.

The Morrow Project isn't a manufacturer before the WAR. That is why they need significant stockpile of goods for the 3-5 year plan.

Bruce persuaded a group of industrialists to pool the money and resources to make the Morrow Project. Massive multinational corporations that had the means to divert or "lose" resources with little notice.

Krell is a Warlord. A version of Genghis Khan. His "Empire" is wherever his people happen to be.

The Kentucky Free States (aka The Rich Five) IS some of the former industrialists from the council of Tomorrow. They had the cryosleep technology and other systems, and the probably War date (19 November 1989) per 3rd edition. The "Two Thousand" is two thousand families with nothing more defining how large those families were. They awoke 10 years after the War and through force assumed control of the territory surrounding their hidden fortress/bunker/enclave. That may possibly be more than one (one for each family) and more dividing the Two Thousand up around different industries. The R5 like the TMP buried and preserved their merchant empire awaiting a day when they can run things (government) the way the benefits themselves.

Yes, the R5 are running the University at Bowling Green, Ky and have for more than 100 years. Loyal KFS citizens attend and very select few career paths.

The KFS is wholesale dismantling and salvaging anything pre-War in their area and taking this to Louisville, KY. That is the heart of their manufacturing empire with thousands of people doing thousands of things.

The KFS is a mean, dangerous, fascist State and probably the only one with the ability to affect things beyond their borders.

The KFS is XYZ corp, GHJ, YJK, ADE, VBN, and more.

Think of say, General Dynamics, hid 1% of its personnel and build capability per year for 20 years. Now and Kraft foods, Dow chemical, Monsanto, Shell Oil, IBM, and others.

KFS is THE big boogey man. Krell is really a minor distraction. A threat to keep the players moving and make for some drama. The KFS is a threat to the Project and will not be persuaded to go back to the "Good Ole Days" of the American Republic.

[ArmySGT.]

Please note I was a player not a PM and had/have nothing but the original 1979? pre publication loose leaf binder manual. I made it a point not to ruin the fun of discovery.

Ah. Well then.

You are missing a lot of information. 3rd editions 1983 publication; also the modules "Bullets & Bluegrass" and "Fall Back" that host most of the game canon material for the Kentucky Free States.

[.45cultist]

Gamerguy, basically you are saying that the highest technology level in limited use would max out at mid-19th century. Most areas would be stuck in mid-18th century to early 19th century, correct?

Do you think that there would be small, isolated communities (less than 20sq miles controlled area) with very little trade or do you think that there would be bigger city-states (few thousands of sq miles of domain) with greater trade along rivers, maintained dirt/gravel roads and early railroads with early steam engines?

For most survivors about 1850's-60's. But Rich Five plus survivors, and salvage and fusion produced petroleum equals the resources to copy or make a tank more simple than a monkey M! or an M60A3. The Rich 5 might have been defense contractors who made the snake eater cryo tubes and had other extensive defense industries that could replace Watervliet Arsenal. The M68 is a late 1950's design The R% should have reference books and engineers who can mutter this in their sleep( I knew one from Lake City, cancer took him early this year).

[ArmySGT.]

For most survivors about 1850's-60's. But Rich Five plus survivors, and salvage and fusion produced petroleum equals the resources to copy or make a tank more simple than a monkey M! or an M60A3. The Rich 5 might have been defense contractors who made the snake eater cryo tubes and had other extensive defense industries that could replace Watervliet Arsenal. The M68 is a late 1950's design The R% should have reference books and engineers who can mutter this in their sleep( I knew one from Lake City, cancer took him early this year).


First. Sorry for your friend. That is no way to go.

The only thing that make Watervliet Arsenal special is the permission to make guns of those calibers. The power hammers, electric arc forges, mandrels, and lathes large enough to do that job exist in other heavy industry. Building locomotives, for example.

[ArmySGT.]

I did a little work on a KFS helicopter unit

Why not an H-13? A 1945 design used throughout the Korean War.

H-13 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_H-13_Sioux)

I'm sure that the KFS military would REALLY like a versatile twin engine transport, like a DHC-4 Caribou or even a DC-3 Dakota - but these are not cheap...

I was thinking either the DC-3 Dakota or the PBY Catalina. The Dakota is able to land and a rough landing strip and the PBY on water or prepared strip. Either is a good work horse for long scouting missions.

[Matt W]

Gamerguy, going beyond mid-19th century tech runs into a significant 'brick wall' of advancement. Want to know what it is? Natural rubber. Natural rubber only comes from a large tropical tree which the great powers of the mid 19th century - British, French, German, Japanese, and American set up plantations to meet supply demands for growing and development nations. Any rubber like object that did not include natural rubber generally did not last for long, breaking down by use or deterioration within a year or less of time. No rubber hoses, no tires, etc. for greater advancement.

True, but artificial rubber was manufactured on an industrial scale in about 1910 (Say...TL D to TLC. This is the Tech Level of the New Confederacy) You can also get rubber from several different plants. This includes dandelions, "prickly lettuce", and guayule (which grows in Texas). Maybe the New Confederacy plantations grow rubber? That may be more plausible than cotton

The KFS would use the technique developed by Lebedev in the 1930's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Lebedev_(chemist))

Ethanol to Rubber! That should be useful in Kentucky

If you have significant states in North America - Maxwell's Militia, the confederacy of the Rich Five states (I reject the KFS module because the author based it on a unrealistic, fascist society from a book he had read), Texas Republic, and Frozen Chosen you have trade, between them and with overseas nations that have rebuilt or established themselves after 150 years. To me the MP teams do not wake up in uncivilized lands but in an unknown and unfamiliar civilization of the post war world reality.

I agree, and this explains the existence of nomadic groups like Gypsy Truckers, Bikers and Wanderers (possibly others). But don't knock the "defend a village from bandits". That sort of storyline is a useful beginning to a campaign

[ArmySGT.]

I agree and this explains the existence of Gypsy Truckers, Bikers and Wanderers (possibly others). But the "defend a village from bandits" storyline is a useful beginning to a campaign

Liberation at Riverton!

Anyone, anyone?

[.45cultist]

First. Sorry for your friend. That is no way to go.

The only thing that make Watervliet Arsenal special is the permission to make guns of those calibers. The power hammers, electric arc forges, mandrels, and lathes large enough to do that job exist in other heavy industry. Building locomotives, for example.

If companies can work D2 tool steel and other durable metals, they can work ordnance steel.

[dragoon500ly]

Why not an H-13? A 1945 design used throughout the Korean War.

H-13 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_H-13_Sioux)



I was thinking either the DC-3 Dakota or the PBY Catalina. The Dakota is able to land and a rough landing strip and the PBY on water or prepared strip. Either is a good work horse for long scouting missions.

Problem with a Catalina would be its size, it's 63ft 10in (19.46m) in length and has a wingspan of 104ft (31.70m), it would be restricted to large lakes and major rivers for landings, or to long runways, it's an interesting idea, but a better choice might be the Grumman G-21 Goose, designed as a mid sized transport carrying 8 passengers or about 2.5 tons of cargo. Another choice might be the Otter or Beaver fitted with floats.

[mmartin798]

One of Gamerguy's problem is the sourcing of materials that are not abundant in the US that are currently imported from South Africa or parts of Asia. Primarily chromium used to improve the corrosive properties of steel for weapons. So let me ask something for my personal clarity, as I am not a metallurgist.

Other than requiring more frequent cleaning and replacement, is there a problem using high carbon steel without the addition of chromium for firearms and cannons? My assumption thus far has been it is not a problem and that KFS trade rifles used a steel with lower carbon content to make the wear characteristics such that they wear out quickly. Is that basically it or am I missing something critical?

[gamerguy]

Machine gun barrels are chrome plated since WWII in order to reduce wear and tear. A very thin layer of chrome, when backed up by hardened steel, will give a very long life.

You have my concerns correct about rare or hard to procure elements. However, as I said I am only familiar with Pre 1st edition so do not know the full background of the KFS. To make canon work the rich 5 would, and I suppose could, stash vast amounts of strategic materials for future use. I still believe scavenging post war would only be viable for the first 5 to 20 years before anything worth it would be gone or unuseable.

I just see the massive layers of technology and manufacturing expertise needed to be beyond a single company or group of companies. And all these people need food, electricity, water supplies, toasters, ovens, washers and driers, etc.. Finally the R5's holdings would have to totally private, no publically traded companies or else shareholders, and the Feds would be all over them for stashing all those hidden assets. Seriously they would need something on the order a trillion dollars or more in family wealth between them. I doubt there are five families anywhere in the world with that much wealth. If Bill Gates with 100 Billion is the top dog (last I heard) his input might get him on the second team to try out the cryo tubes.

Another thought I had was after this has been going for a generation or two greed will rule everything. What is to keep one family from eventually getting rid of the "competition"? Why share this. I think by 150 years plus it would degenerate to the rich one (family that is) or a few separate states headed by the latest members of the families. Food for scenarios at least.

Rubber was discussed in past threads. Very interesting, you should dig them up. I was thinking a surviving agricultural university could make that one long term project. Maybe a local TMP team could do a run into a "bad zone" to recover potentially critical info from an ancient facility. Say after 100 years of successfully running a replacement rubber plantation something is causing issues but the problem was being worked on my a known company's research facility....

I only know some metallurgy and the issues with it. In my mind there is also optics (including coatings), electronics, ceramics, petrochemicals, etc. all have potential issues with the likes of supplies of raw materials or very specific technologies or techniques.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Is perhaps the question how much does the KFS actually need?

Lets say they need tyres for at most a 1000 military vehicles and a 1000 civilian ones?

I'm guessing they're happy for the slaves and peasants to bum around on horse drawn carts with wooden wheels. Then it wouldn't be that improbable for them to either grow enough rubber in hot houses or produce synthetic plastic rubber in sufficient quantities.

They may not be able to make high quality steel, but acceptable firearms have been made from heavier steel for decades. I think the idea of a KFS mini14 weighing a kilo or so more than it's real world competitor and not being capable of full auto to save it's weaker barrel more realistic.

[ArmySGT.]

One of Gamerguy's problem is the sourcing of materials that are not abundant in the US that are currently imported from South Africa or parts of Asia. Primarily chromium used to improve the corrosive properties of steel for weapons. So let me ask something for my personal clarity, as I am not a metallurgist.

Other than requiring more frequent cleaning and replacement, is there a problem using high carbon steel without the addition of chromium for firearms and cannons? My assumption thus far has been it is not a problem and that KFS trade rifles used a steel with lower carbon content to make the wear characteristics such that they wear out quickly. Is that basically it or am I missing something critical?

The chromium reduces wear tremendously from 5 rounds to 80k rounds between replacements.

Plenty to be found in rail and structural steel harvested from former town and cities.

[Matt W]

The KFS would need a supply of stainless steel scrap

Stainless steel scrap is a good source of chromium. I believe that about half of the chromium used in the USA is derived from recycling. Or - of course - the KFS could just recycle it to make the Mini-14 (I believe it's available in stainless steel?).

In real life, I'm not sure how much stainless steel is in the average residence, but I'll bet that most kitchens have stainless steel sinks, faucets and a lot of cutlery...

Salvaging stainless steel for the Kentucky Free State could be a relatively easy and profitable operation. The stuff survives fires and (allegedly) doesn't rust. The ruins of an apartment block would be equivalent to a "stainless steel mine"

The KFS is a trading nation. Merchants from anywhere along the Mississippi will happily sell stuff obtained from the ruins: scrap metal, old tires and plastic materials in exchange for "moderate-tech" manufactured goods and pharmaceuticals

The KFS is an industrial nation that has no shortage of energy. They can burn coal or renewable fuels or they can use the fusion designs they've stolen from the Morrow Project.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Look at disadvantages for the KFS, how much of a hang up is illiteracy?

I believe in one of the earlier supplements it was mentioned that most of the conscripts haven't had any schooling and are illiterate.

This whilst having a 20th century, industrialised military. Can conscripts without algebra target mortars effectively? Or use radios?

Assuming the elite officer core probably don't want to spend their days doing hard sums whilst getting shot at.

I suspect the KFS would have to invest in an educated sergeant class, with basic literacy. Rather like in the 17th century when artillery was a skilled professionals job.

As such the KFS may have the capacity to produce gun cars and mortars. It just might get hung up getting the skilled crews to use them in the right place at the right time.

[ArmySGT.]

One of Gamerguy's problem is the sourcing of materials that are not abundant in the US that are currently imported from South Africa or parts of Asia. Primarily chromium used to improve the corrosive properties of steel for weapons. So let me ask something for my personal clarity, as I am not a metallurgist.

Other than requiring more frequent cleaning and replacement, is there a problem using high carbon steel without the addition of chromium for firearms and cannons? My assumption thus far has been it is not a problem and that KFS trade rifles used a steel with lower carbon content to make the wear characteristics such that they wear out quickly. Is that basically it or am I missing something critical?

I have been told the only chromium mine in the U.S. is in Riddle, Oregon.... though that is seldom run due to cheaper methods to mine in other countries.
*edit* Nevermind...that is a Nickel mine.

[.45cultist]

I have been told the only chromium mine in the U.S. is in Riddle, Oregon.... though that is seldom run due to cheaper methods to mine in other countries.
*edit* Nevermind...that is a Nickel mine.

What is "Stellite"(?), the material that replaced chrome in M16/AR15 barrels?

[Matt W]

Don't be hung up on chromite and chrome-plating. Is the KFS really going to care that the barrels of their guns "only" last for 3000 rounds as opposed to 8000?

On the contrary, the manufacturers may be pleased. They can sell more guns!

It may also be a helpful security feature. Deserters won't have access to the armoury specialists in the Fort

[.45cultist]

Don't be hung up on chromite and chrome-plating. Is the KFS really going to care that the barrels of their guns "only" last for 3000 rounds as opposed to 8000?

On the contrary, the manufacturers may be pleased. They can sell more guns!

It may also be a helpful security feature. Deserters won't have access to the armoury specialists in the Fort

The rebuild contract fills the gap between orders would Also the barrels are probably harder steel and last a little longer. There are 6-8 makers of AR15/M16 receivers in the country compared to Mini-14 makers, I would have had the R5 acquire tooling from the nearest one. That number includes the big guys and their subcontractors.

[Project_Sardonicus]

If most of it's likely foes are going to be armed with low powered muskets (those poor quality steel barrels) and bows and arrows. Wouldn't the KFS invest in some primitive body armour more so than automatic fire power.

In Fallback it mentions how the KFS if need be armour up their vehicles with sandbags. Seems adequate to hold out against slow moving musket balls.

A decent steel pot helmet and a flack jacket made from; a thin layer of steel plates or chainmail links sandwiched between thickly woven cloth or hardened leather. Would most likely keep out those same musket balls and arrows.

It's a feature that would simultaneously make the KFS terrifying to locals, like Roman legionares or Spanish Conquistadors who were both seemingly invulnerable to more primitive arms.

Whilst also giving the project an advantage as that armour would struggle to keep out even 9mm bullets and just slow them down, giving the team a chance to win through their first few encounters.

[ArmySGT.]

If most of it's likely foes are going to be armed with low powered muskets (those poor quality steel barrels) and bows and arrows. Wouldn't the KFS invest in some primitive body armour more so than automatic fire power.

In Fallback it mentions how the KFS if need be armour up their vehicles with sandbags. Seems adequate to hold out against slow moving musket balls.

A decent steel pot helmet and a flack jacket made from; a thin layer of steel plates or chainmail links sandwiched between thickly woven cloth or hardened leather. Would most likely keep out those same musket balls and arrows.

It's a feature that would simultaneously make the KFS terrifying to locals, like Roman legionares or Spanish Conquistadors who were both seemingly invulnerable to more primitive arms.

Whilst also giving the project an advantage as that armour would struggle to keep out even 9mm bullets and just slow them down, giving the team a chance to win through their first few encounters.

In "Bullets & Bluegrass" Officers and Senior NCO may purchase a type of body armor....It is sold though and to expensive for the common soldier.

[Matt W]

I suspect that the KFS troops would terrify a unit of musketeers. Not only do they have an incredible rate of fire, they have rifle grenades (including a very nasty WP model with a burst radius of 40 meters)

7-man squad
CETME light machinegun with 600 rounds (another 300 are carried by the squad)
4 assault rifles and hand grenades (5 X 40 round magazines)
2 "grenadiers" with assault rifles and 8 rifle grenades each (3 x 40 round magazines)

Under fire, the musketeers might get off 1 shot every minute.

[Project_Sardonicus]

I suspect that the KFS troops would terrify a unit of musketeers. Not only do they have an incredible rate of fire, they have rifle grenades (including a very nasty WP model with a burst radius of 40 meters)

7-man squad
CETME light machinegun with 600 rounds (another 300 are carried by the squad)
4 assault rifles and hand grenades (5 X 40 round magazines)
2 "grenadiers" with assault rifles and 8 rifle grenades each (3 x 40 round magazines)

Under fire, the musketeers might get off 1 shot every minute.

This is perhaps where I think the KFS wouldn't operate like that. Let's assume for several hundred miles in every direction of their borders the KFS has nothing but colonies, controlled villages and so on. The last thing they're going to want to do is send in the heavy artillery every time a few yokels decide to have a little peasants revolt. You're killing people you need working your fields, not to mention tearing up said fields with heavy vehicles and the survivors will run off.

The US army doesn't bring out the A10s and artillery for a football riot, that's what the police or national guard are for.

Of course the KFS will have lots of heavy units, who train hard and have copious amounts of ammo and arty. Who are rolled out to squash any serious resistance or the very occaisonal band of marauders who raid villages.

But most of the time they'd be more like an unfriendly police force, cracking skulls and dragging people off for a very short trial. I think they'd be most likely to have a lot of primitive tear gas, shot guns with bird shot and battons in their armouries.

It simultaneously I would think makes them more menacing and sinister, whilst still not wiping out the party on their first encounter.

Also whatever weapons you give to poorly paid soldiers have a nasty tendency of being lost e.g. sold onto the rebels or just merchants, or used for some half assed mutiny. Over arming your frontline troops can be a far greater menace than underarming them, a single mini14 with 200 rounds could on the blackmarket probably pay for a comfortable retirement far away from the KFS.

[Matt W]

The squad I described is straight out of "Bullets and Bluegrass"

Also, according to the module, KFS troops are VERY well-paid. They are volunteers and the military chooses only the best applicants. They have adequate training and good morale. Soldiers' families are not permitted at the border posts; they live at cities in the interior (the Secret Police can keep them as hostages if anyone tries to desert)

The KFS military are confident (even overconfident) but that's because they've never encountered enemies with anything close to their firepower and organization. If they meet a Morrow Project team with an autocannon or an automatic grenade launcher...well, it'll be a shock

Now, if you're talking about a "Peasant's Revolt" then that's going to be crushed by the Secret Police. The Army is a last resort

[Project_Sardonicus]

The squad I described is straight out of "Bullets and Bluegrass"

Also, according to the module, KFS troops are VERY well-paid. They are volunteers and the military chooses only the best applicants. They have adequate training and good morale. Soldiers' families are not permitted at the border posts; they live at cities in the interior (the Secret Police can keep them as hostages if anyone tries to desert)

The KFS military are confident (even overconfident) but that's because they've never encountered enemies with anything close to their firepower and organization. If they meet a Morrow Project team with an autocannon or an automatic grenade launcher...well, it'll be a shock

Now, if you're talking about a "Peasant's Revolt" then that's going to be crushed by the Secret Police. The Army is a last resort

According to Bullets and Blue Grass the Secret Police were specifically created to deal with the MPs. They have some secret bunker with advanced computers for listening in on their communications. The v300 was built specifically for taking out MP vehicles as were the rifle grenades. The SPs have a lot of experience in dealing with the MPs. They're not going to be overly bothered by a pipsqueak armoured vehicle or automatic grenade launcher.

True the KFS have never faced an enemy on their scale, but they've had a lot of experience knocking over much weaker foes and Morrow Teams.

The analogy I always thinks fits is they're like the European imperial powers in the 1930s. When both were fighting campaigns against large, but technologically primitive foes in Iraq etc. Where a few aircraft, armoured cars and artillery made most engagements a push over. Right up until they ran into the Germans.

[Matt W]

The analogy I always thinks fits is they're like the European imperial powers in the 1930s. When both were fighting campaigns against large, but technologically primitive foes in Iraq etc. Where a few aircraft, armoured cars and artillery made most engagements a push over. Right up until they ran into the Germans.

Yes, exactly. It's an "Imperial Constabulary" role. The British called it"Aerial Policing" in the 1920's

If I can lift a couple of quotes...

"Attack the most inaccessible village of the most prominent tribe which it is desired to punish. All available aircraft must be collected; the attack with bombs and machine guns must be relentless and unremitting and carried on continuously by day and night, on houses, inhabitants, crops and cattle."

In his memoir of the crushing of the 1920 Iraqi uprising, Lieutenant-General Sir Aylmer L Haldane, quotes his own orders for the punishment of any Iraqi found in possession of weapons "with the utmost severity": "The village where he resides will be destroyed _ pressure will be brought on the inhabitants by cutting off water power the area being cleared of the necessaries of life". He added the warning: "Burning a village properly takes a long time, an hour or more according to size"

[Project_Sardonicus]

Pretty much hit what I meant on the head.

It's both a more satisfying and manageable foe.

[Matt W]

Two oddities of "Bullets and Bluegrass"

Oddity Number 1

The 90mm Cockerill on the LAV-300 has explosive rounds

BUT

The 105mm tank guns do not have explosive rounds. Only solid shot. Why?

The KFS has 105mm howitzers. There seems little point in having howitzers that only fire solid shot, so there is (presumably) a capability to manufacture HE rounds in 105mm

Oddity Number Two

So MANY armoured vehicles. The KFS Army fields almost the same number of tanks as the ENTIRE British Army...(144 compared to 156)

The KFS manufactures 2 types of tank: a replica M1 and a replica M60A3. These have less armour ("half a meter at best") than the originals and lack luxuries such as weapon stabilization and laser rangefinders. There are 72 tanks in each of the "Praetorian" 6th and 7th regiments

They also make a "replica" M2 Bradley (no TOW missiles). There are 84 Bradleys in each Praetorian regiment


Oh, and let's not forget the 16 V-300's in each of the other 5 regiments

That's 144 tanks, 168 tracked IFVs and 80 wheeled APCs - 4 separate designs, each with its own logistics problem. Is there a way for the KFS to simplify things?

[.45cultist]

I suspect that the KFS troops would terrify a unit of musketeers. Not only do they have an incredible rate of fire, they have rifle grenades (including a very nasty WP model with a burst radius of 40 meters)

7-man squad
CETME light machinegun with 600 rounds (another 300 are carried by the squad)
4 assault rifles and hand grenades (5 X 40 round magazines)
2 "grenadiers" with assault rifles and 8 rifle grenades each (3 x 40 round magazines)

Under fire, the musketeers might get off 1 shot every minute.

Look up the tactics of the locals in "Starnaman" for another response, probably even more effective against the KFS soldiers.

[RandyT0001]

Let's not forget that the KFS was written by its author to be undefeatable with realism a distant tenth in criteria. The KFS does not need a refit but replacement, a complete overhaul.

IMO, the Rich Five did not create one state but five, each one under the control of a family. (They do not want to share one state but will trade and cooperate with four others.) These states operates as a loose confederacy, engaged in trade and intrigue. These states cover parts of Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and New York. The holdings of each state is (somewhat) intermingled with the others (similar to German Confederation or Holy Roman Empire) though each family has a predominate, primary territory.

The tech A, fusion power, listed in the book are not copies of fusion plants from MP but a single captured MP fusion plant originally intended to power the MP rebuilding in the future. After 150 years it's output is small and the R5 have moved to coal as a primary energy source.

No planes, no M1s, no Bradleys, no V300s because they do not need them, there is no large threat to their domain. They have several working MP vehicles which the "Secret Police" (more of a commando group than a police unit) use to ambush MP teams that they find.

[.45cultist]

Let's not forget that the KFS was written by its author to be undefeatable with realism a distant tenth in criteria. The KFS does not need a refit but replacement, a complete overhaul.

IMO, the Rich Five did not create one state but five, each one under the control of a family. (They do not want to share one state but will trade and cooperate with four others.) These states operates as a loose confederacy, engaged in trade and intrigue. These states cover parts of Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and New York. The holdings of each state is (somewhat) intermingled with the others (similar to German Confederation or Holy Roman Empire) though each family has a predominate, primary territory.

The tech A, fusion power, listed in the book are not copies of fusion plants from MP but a single captured MP fusion plant originally intended to power the MP rebuilding in the future. After 150 years it's output is small and the R5 have moved to coal as a primary energy source.

No planes, no M1s, no Bradleys, no V300s because they do not need them, there is no large threat to their domain. They have several working MP vehicles which the "Secret Police" (more of a commando group than a police unit) use to ambush MP teams that they find.

Good point, if they can copy the fusion, they could copy an M1 exactly.