OT: Korean Ferry disaster

[kato13]

I generally don't like to post OT posts, but my girlfriend (who lives in ROK) is quite shook up over this and is very interested in how this is being portrayed world wide.

While I feel there is much blame to be put on the captain's shoulders my gf feels this is also a failure from a rescue perspective. I am not one to quickly place blame, but she has a well earned distrust of what her government tells her. In my time in Asia I have found the countries there can be very hard on individuals, very easy on corporations, and their governments are reluctant to admit anything that will cause them to lose face.

When I first heard the death toll I assumed the sinking occurred with the following factors

Darkness
High Waves
Significant distance from shore and or rescue boats
Rapid sinking
Very Cold Water


Apparently none of these are true.

Actually when you compare this rescue to the Titanic sinking there should have been every advantage compared to it. With the notable exception that the titanic took 2 hours 40 min to sink and the Sewol took 2 hours.

The Sewol rescuers had daylight, 10-12 degree C water (compared to -2C), dozens of nearby ships, a few kilometers from shore(compared to 640km) calm seas, and over 100 years of technological and safety advancement, yet a greater percentage of passengers died.

Passenger survival rate
Titanic 37.8%
Sewol 34.0%

I want to be clear I feel the captain probably has well over 50% responsibility even if I find there were colossal mistakes in the rescue. However if mistakes were made at other levels (be it in training, corporate action, or government response), I don't feel that those should be glossed over, because a villain has be found.

Thoughts and opinions are welcome.

Thanks

[stormlion1]

From what I understand the Passengers were given instructions to remain where they were and most did so. When the ship finally went over it did so very fast trapping them or making escape very hard as exits were blocked by water. equipment, or worse body's. The ones who didn't obey instructions were the ones who survived and the actions of the crew during the incident didn't help matters. From what I gather from CNN they didn't cover themselves in glory.

[Raellus]

In my time in Asia I have found the countries there can be very hard on individuals, very easy on corporations, and their governments are reluctant to admit anything that will cause them to lose face.

Sounds like a description of the Malaysian government's handling of the missing 777.

[Schone23666]

While I feel there is much blame to be put on the captain's shoulders my gf feels this is also a failure from a rescue perspective. I am not one to quickly place blame, but she has a well earned distrust of what her government tells her. In my time in Asia I have found the countries there can be very hard on individuals, very easy on corporations, and their governments are reluctant to admit anything that will cause them to lose face.




Well, as being half-Korean myself through my mother, and having lived in Korea for a short time (albeit when I was MUCH younger) I can say this...

A lot of cultures in Asia, but particularly Japanese, Korean and Chinese (at least from my own experience, others may vary) are EXTREMELY rigid, conformist and patriarchal. YMMV of course as to whether that's a "good" or "bad" thing, and this might not be quite as true anymore due to Western influence (which some Asian cultures are not happy about, but that's another topic), but basically you won't find the rebellious nature among youths for the most part in that area of the world like you would here in the U.S.

Traditionally in these cultures, If anyone older than you, especially an elder of the family, or your boss tells you to jump, you say "How hi?" and do it. The reason I bring this up is that it's been said that the ferry's crew instructed the passengers to stay where they were and not move. As Stormlion noted, the one's who went against these orders, apparently most of them survived. The ones who stayed, sadly not. Gross negligence at the very least by the ferry crew didn't help either.

Retaining honor for both the family and clan, and not "losing face" is also a VERY ingrained part of the culture in the area. That's why you see the problems coming up with corporate negligence (which obviously happens everywhere, but I digress) because the workers don't want to report problems that might make the company look bad, especially their boss. It's why the Japanese military during WWII tended to sometimes omit certain facts from reports that might make them lose face when they were losing to the Allies. And on a more personal note, it's probably partly why my mother's family disowned her when she married an American. Having their daughter marry a foreigner to them was apparently a disgrace to them and the family.

[kato13]

To a degree I may have "poisoned" my gf with Western thinking.

One of the stories that I tell when comparing Asian to Western ways of looking at things is in regards to how the Japanese and Americans responded to the same situation during an earthquake.

When dealing with a collapsed wall that needed to be shifted to allow people to escape from under it the solutions were as follows.

Japanese Solution (it was a while since i heard it so there may be more steps)

The block emergency manager assesses the need for inflatable lifting bag to move the wall.
The request is routed to the district equipment manager who puts in a request to the regional depot.
The regional depot dispatches the equipment and the team trained to use it.

American solution

Break into the trunks of nearby cars and use the jacks to lift the wall.


I am not saying Asian culture is worse but it is definitely less flexible in certain situations. She looks at the failure of her people to rescue so many children and wonders if her government is telling the whole truth or trying to shift the blame onto one person because they don't want to admit mistakes or even that they may have been hindered by a lack of flexibility.

In Asia lies with a purpose are often not seen as lies. The fact that she is an Korean/English translator has exposed her to the Western world's more rigid interpretation of a lie, and she is not buying all of what they are telling her.

She has already found inconsistencies as to when the rescue center first told the ship to have everyone put on life jackets when comparing the Korean and English transcripts.

I know first information is fluid and translations of garbled transmissions are not the best thing to base a conclusion on, but her country has had a history of covering up things that embarrass the government.

To an outsider it might appear I am throwing Asian culture under the bus, so I will end with some stories of how wonderful the Korean culture is in terms of trusting each other.

A few tidbits.

When riding a rollercoaser people put their personal belongings into a big bin. You root through the bin after the ride is over and take your stuff. I was reluctant to put my 5 dollar hat in the bin and my gf put her purse with her passport in it.

In an apartment parking lot where space was at a premium, people left their cars in neutral if they were blocking another space. People would just push the cars around to get out. My friends and I were pretty good teenagers but when I mentioned this at a gathering we all said we would have done something untoward if someone did that when we were in highschool.

Gas masks, food, flashlights, and medical kits are in unlocked lockers all over Seoul. I told my gf if they tried that in the US, 20 minutes after they were stocked, people would be selling them on the street.

[kato13]

And on a more personal note, it's probably partly why my mother's family disowned her when she married an American. Having their daughter marry a foreigner to them was apparently a disgrace to them and the family.

That is a very sad factor in their culture. I believe things have gotten better recently, but that does not change the past.

[Schone23666]

That is a very sad factor in their culture. I believe things have gotten better recently, but that does not change the past.

I think the attitudes have changed somewhat over time, but it all really depends on who you talk to.

It's funny when I think about it...my mother grew up in the aftermath of the Korean War near Kunsan and married my father who was stationed over there during the Vietnam conflict (Dad worked in munitions, there was a joke that if you saw him running away from something, follow his ass quick), who was naturalized American but was raised by a German family who migrated to America. Said German relatives stayed behind in Germany and found themselves on the Eastern side of the Berlin Wall during the Cold War and we were finally able to reunite with them in the 90's after it all came down. So, I had blood relations in two Cold War hotspots...one former, another still ongoing. Funny that.

I remember watching the Wall being torn down live on TV with my father, and him saying wistfully, "If only your grandfather was still here to see this."