Societal Changes in Your New Worlds

[kalos72]

So my group has been putting down some good material on the history in my campaign but now they have a questions about the next steps...

Our group sees our current food production and distribution system as unsustainable and wants to move the "new world" to something more self sufficient.

They were thinking each county MUST be able to support its own population food wise. Each residence must have its own well, own gardens, own power source; no grid, its own rain catchment systems and grey water and blackwater systems: composting toilets.

Population control in county seats, something like 25k. Forcing people to get their own land and become self sufficient.

Those were some ideas thrown out there...nothing worked out yet.

Have any of you given that thought in your own "new worlds"

[Cdnwolf]

Need a barter system set up and if it is going to work a price list like they had in the TV series Jericho.

What about protein? Everyone should own a few chickens, a goat and a cow. Take a look at Medieval freeholders and use a system like that.

[kalos72]

Barter system is a good idea.

As for the chickens, thats what we thought too. There will not be a store you go to every weekly and buy 3 meals a day for your family. There wont be enough power to supply refrigerators in every home. Or fuel to ship things across country.

We also thought about a prison system/LE policy...

Even procreation, limited or restricted? How do you effectively enforce population limits?

[simonmark6]

Goats are good too if you can get them.

A half dozen pygmy goats are as easy to keep as chickens and you can get about a quarter gallon of milk a day from each of the girls. If you have six and a billy you'd be getting a gallon and a half a day.

I'd split that into different production areas. If you have vinegar, easy with a still you can use half a gallon to make soft cheese, enough for a meal for four people. Then I'd skim the rest so you have a pound of butter a day and a couple of pints of skimmed milk.

Potatoes and skimmed milk can keep you alive if you have to but it's risky.

In addition, each dam will drop one to two kids a year which can be used to increase the herd or to sell on. They're too valuable for meat.

The shit is also good for fertiliser and if they are a long haired variety you can even comb out enough hair for a really nice sweater every few months.

Bigger goats are good too, you can get by with two if you have a billy that can cover them nearby. Each will produce a gallon of milk. More than that will be wasted for the normal family as you can't store the milk unless you're making hard cheese which takes a lot more steps.

Sheep are similar but they're stupid buggers and a lot more work. The wool is nice though.

[kalos72]

Great information guys...thanks.

But what are your thoughts about the way life continues in your worlds?

Do you plan on restoring the power grid, water treatment and sewage treatment plants?

Do you plan on using the 1000 acres big farms to produce food to ship to your major cities to feed the population or will you force people to be self sufficient?

Will you try to support a half million people in skyscrapers in downtown Tuscon or force them to leave and go work the land for themselves?

I think there are some MAJOR changes that would need to be made to society if you plan on surviving. Any other ideas/suggestions?

[mikeo80]

Great information guys...thanks.

But what are your thoughts about the way life continues in your worlds?

Do you plan on restoring the power grid, water treatment and sewage treatment plants?

Do you plan on using the 1000 acres big farms to produce food to ship to your major cities to feed the population or will you force people to be self sufficient?

Will you try to support a half million people in skyscrapers in downtown Tuscon or force them to leave and go work the land for themselves?

I think there are some MAJOR changes that would need to be made to society if you plan on surviving. Any other ideas/suggestions?

IMHO, it really depends on what else is happening in the world at the time of trying to implement the changes you are advocating. Is this post TDM? Post "The Day" of Alas Babylon/Morrow Project? What type of experts do you have available? Farmers? Doctors? Engineers? Military?

Is there rampant disease in or near the development? Is there a library available for information? If nuclear war just happened, what is the status of the EMP, the radiation, the blast areas?

Again, IMHO, water is THE most crucial raw material. Any one that is included in the settlement MUST have water. Water is also needed for any type of agriculture. If this is post TDM/The Day type scenario, population is going to be very limited. Any recovery is probably going to be slow and small at first.

Any type of government that evolves from a nightmare of nuclear warfare is going to have to be VERY responsive to any developments. An outbreak of Typhus, or an armed gang sighted 2 days march away.

The person or persons involved will have to make quick, sometimes UGLY decisions. For example, you might have to decide to close the community NOW from the outside world because of sickness. NO ONE will be allowed in or out. This would have to enforced with DEADLY force. IF your community is surviving, how the hell are you going to KEEP it alive if typhus or cholera or smallpox or WHATEVER is near by.

The issues are difficult at best and draconian to maintain.

My $0.02

Mike

[Slappy]

Couple of thoughts from what happened historically. Not destiny, but observations on pre-industrial societies.

Incarceration, at least long term, was quite rare. Keeping people locked up in a non-productive way is extrememly resource intensive. The accused are generally held until trial and punishment is corporal, capital, fine, or exile. Incarceration is hard labor which is effectively hard labor until death on starvation rations.

Self sufficiency in terms of food is likely not mandatory. Specialist tradesmen (carpenters, smiths, soldiers) will exist. They may have some plots or livestock to suppliment, but division of labor will happen. Barter will happen, but not nearly always directly. Person to person credit is a mainstay of small communities. The tallies are enforced by honor. To be caught cheating and to not pay one's debts leads to being shut out and is a huge cost. Shame and exile in small communities is more effective than any modern credit bureau.

Self sufficiency in terms of arms was almost always enforced. Freemen were expected to be able to arm themselves for the common defence when needed at their own expense or to pay a fee to have it done for them. Often an exhorbanant fee.

The penalty for transgressions was often to be made an outlaw. Which it is worth remembering meant not that one broke the law, but that one had no protection under the law. That one's life could be taken without fear of retribution. In pre-industrial societies, that was often the easiest way to issue a death sentence.

Slappy

[Cdnwolf]

Another important commodity... salt...

[headquarters]

The system would seem a prudent one in times of T2K scenarios. Also governing the populace on these rules will make it easier to keep control of resource consumption and production. However - here are some ideas to create dynamics and or conflict in your new world..

However this will also lead to a system of serfdom in the long term. As the rules for a "household" is bent by the many who havent got the means or inclination to set up their own yeomanry they will take up with people who do and be tied to the land as workers for their sustenance. This might be a large number of people depending on what the overall situation is . Maybe it just isnt safe to set up alone and you have to join someone else - my ranch - my rules and all that. This situation has historical presedence.

Peoples lives will become seasonal with the rythm of crops and livestock. Mobility will be limited as a result and also social mobility as only people who have plentiful resources may take up past times outside does available on a seasonal schedule. Getting other /new skills such as an education wil also be limited by the amount of time and work that is necessary to put into this system.

But the system will not only be seasonal - it will have to have more minute directions given to ensur ethat sowing, harvesting etc is done at optimal times to avoid people starving and to ensure optimum resource output.

The enforcement of these rules will be necessary to oversee by some authority to avoid people turning to brigandry out of hunger and to make sure that each county has access to the rquired amount of commom resources ( taxes and tithe) that is needed for common tasks such as defence, representation, development and charity/welfare etc.

In the T2K scenario such responsibility would be best administered through a territorial system giving someone thrustworthy the responsibility for each area or fief if you will. To ensure continuity it might be best to ensure that the thrustworthy ones get their position for very long terms. The sustem to choose new persons responsible might demand travekl to the administrative center and even lobbying there to be considered or expensive election campaigns that in short means that changes are rare or the position may be considered heridatery.

Some folk might not concur with this system out of their personal beliefs, inclination or out of malice, indeed they may be subjected to prejudice from the establishment at proprietors and be forced to resist the system.

They may take to the hills or the woods, swamps or what have you and start competing systems that do not answer to the administrators. The scene is set for different missions.

Subjugate the ingrate smelly non conformist
or
investigate local administrator about his possible mistreatment of smelly ingrates that might be ok
or
resist the foul greedy administrators and their inhumane system of feudalism
or
rule the adminsitrative system / or part of it and expand it at the cost of neighbouring corrupt and ineffective administrators through a series of skirmishes and battles

all of the above may of course include sabotage, assasinations, recce patrols, kidnappings, sieges, sallies and a good old time for the pcs.

[kalos72]

Post TDM / Arrival of III Corps in Texas

LE/Prison - Good points. We were thinking old school chain gangs...hardcore work not this pansy stuff nowadays.

Would need to work the barter system into things...great points.

Do most people agree that food production will need to return local? How do you plan on feeding a half million people in Tuscon assuming you can feed that many to begin with? Much less then in a major metro area...

[kalos72]

Speaking of skills....

One of the problems we run into is the majority of south Texas being Mexican refugee...lack of skills.

The idea had been put out there about sending a ship to NY/Maryland and recruiting skilled people since they have a surplus. But how? Would a family in NYC trust me when I say "Come move to Texas, its free room and board and travel?" :)

Then of course develop a school/training system to increase the availability as needed.

[Slappy]

Transfer of power is a long way off. In y2K or near to it, peoples time horizon will be in months, not decades. Maybe hereditary transfer takes over at some point, but effectiveness will be paramount for at least fifteen years, far beyond the horizon of most campaigns.

Absent Mil/Civ Gov, NA or Religious type restrictions on how, abiltity to kick up the required production to the next level will be paramount. Rampant abuses will be a problem, but largely because they threaten the stability of production, not because they are abuses per se.

I don't personally see lack of skills as that big of a problem. Absence is a problem. Lack though can be solved with apprenticeship. Offering freedom from field labor for learning is an easy trade. One can have a pick of apprentices very easily. If no one though has the skills, then the bribes must be much higher. Still, post 2k, hard to believe you need to go to NY to find what you need. Likely a hungry man much closer has what you need.

[headquarters]

I agree. I would like to comment though.
In the forseeable future the question of succession is not an issue on the daily agenda. But bear in mind that death is everywhere in this scenario. Ilness, radiation, poisoning, violence. Take your pick. So the ability to ensure continuity is an issue. If tht is best sorted through a careful screening process or more efficiently done by the next in line being able to grab power I cannot say. But powerstruggle might ead to drops in production. Having a set order will simplify things. This might be people within the same organization, family, clan etc. My point being - it will likely not be an open process or have the safeguards we accept as the foundations for our goverments. And for the common man it will be a done deal who will rule - for the forseeable future and maybe beyond.

As for the scope of campaigns - many campaigns are specific towards missions or goals. Others have more open or broader scopes. Peoples prefernces differ.

I have played, gm ed and enjoyed both types. The misions or encounters have to be good to retain player interest. But the in town stuff or down time as we call it is also an important part of the game.

Currently our FtF campaign is running in its 10th year ( v.2.0 with some tweaks or house rules) and I describe it loosely as a soap apocalyptic drama. Game time is now the year of our Lord 2021 from a starting point in our homebrewed timeline of 2004. At least two players ( out of 5) are running dynastic like family enterprises bent on subjugating the gameworld at all costs and by any means.

Transfer of power is a long way off. In y2K or near to it, peoples time horizon will be in months, not decades. Maybe hereditary transfer takes over at some point, but effectiveness will be paramount for at least fifteen years, far beyond the horizon of most campaigns.

Absent Mil/Civ Gov, NA or Religious type restrictions on how, abiltity to kick up the required production to the next level will be paramount. Rampant abuses will be a problem, but largely because they threaten the stability of production, not because they are abuses per se.

I don't personally see lack of skills as that big of a problem. Absence is a problem. Lack though can be solved with apprenticeship. Offering freedom from field labor for learning is an easy trade. One can have a pick of apprentices very easily. If no one though has the skills, then the bribes must be much higher. Still, post 2k, hard to believe you need to go to NY to find what you need. Likely a hungry man much closer has what you need.

[Sanjuro]

I know I have mentioned this before- Alfred the Great's organisation of Wessex, with the formation of towns as burhs: fortified, able to defend themselves against small threats, but with a responsibility to send troops for area or national defence.
Small isolated settlements are too vulnerable if marauder bands exist in any number; large cities are too dependent on supply lines. This problem is compounded when those supply lines are based on those vulnerable rural communities!
So: reorganisation of society into small, defensible, flexible settlements. I am not sure if the power structure is best described as "devolved" or "feudal."

[kalos72]

Good information there...love the idea. I planned on developing a FOB at each County Seat as I cleared counties but hadn't really thought about that many troops/militia. One out of every four?

Would a well built FOB with say 500 militia work to secure an average sized county? If each county had one, thats 2-3k troops one county over within a rifle shot.

Equipping that many troops/militia is another problem all together...