Energy Alternatives

[welsh]

One of my gripes with the Morrow Project is Fusion Power. It just seems too easy, and worse, the possibility that all our vehicles run on fusion power- which has not become widely used at the time of the apocalypse- makes me feel this is a huge cop out. The costs of energy should be one of the key challenges of this game- how to get it, how to preserve it, how to produce it and protecting it. Those with energy in abundance have a serious competitive advantage against those who don't. The desire to steal that energy will also be huge.

There has got to be a better and more realistic way to do energy. Twilight 2000 used alcohol driven vehicles- which was fine except that you could only move in short bursts followed by a period when you had to stop and create more fuel. As I recall, in the Twilight 2000 game, it is during a refueling period that your NATO unit gets the smackdown from the Warsaw Pact.

These days we have cheaper solar panels and electric/battery cars.

The challenge for the players should include some struggle to create the energy necessary to achieve their goals.

One way of overcoming some of these issues might be to have some sort of power station that generates electricity so as to fuel the batteries that fuel the cars. Fusion powered vehicles seems a big jump, electrical battery vehicles seems more reasonable.

I realize this is messing with a huge part of the canon of the game, but this has always been an aspect of the game which I thought to be problematic.

Your thoughts?

[kato13]

I have the smallest fusion plant be 4 tons.

Vehicles run on multifuel/electric power plants.

Even with no fuel a vehicle can run in batteries charged by transferred electrical power from any source including a Morrow Fusion Plant. There is a plant in the Bolt Hole, in their nesting cache (where it is transportable on a 5 ton truck) and as part of Morrow Logistical teams. Any one of which could be unavailable after 150 years forcing them to use alternate methods (solor, generators, etc).

Fuel can also be brewed ala T2k or made ala biodiesel

I do allow morrow teams to brew ethanol from cellulose via hybrid yeast.

I have some kit information for both modern stills and a biodiesel production if anyone is interested.

[RandyT0001]

Biodiesel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel)
or
Vegetable oil fuels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_oil_fuel)

These two seem to me to be the best alternatives to gasoline. If the MP vehicles have multi-fuel engines installed theses fuels have good energy content per gallon and are relatively easy to make. Many farms in the late 20th century and early 21st century have installed their own biodiesel plants to supplement the diesel they have to buy to run farm equipment.

[nuke11]

The main reason fusion was brought into the game for vehicles was the original designers didn't want the game to turn into a hunt for fuel. Look at the games from that period and the players are hunting for stuff in most cases.

It certainly was an interestingly bad idea, but as a plot device it does help the players become freer to explorer the new wilderness.

If there is some sort of fuel alternative that can stand storage for 150+ years, I would certainly like to know.

[welsh]

Hey Nuke- Can see how that becomes the major problem. But if the story is one of simply searching for fuel- that's a problem. But if it also require the making of fuel- that might make for a different story. Rebuilding an energy grid could be the broader overarching goal of an MP group or a recurring issue in the rebuilding process. New solar, wind or even biodiesel/ vegetable oil mixtures could become key issues as the game progresses, even if you rely on fusion packs early. Refiring a college's nuclear reactor (I think a few still have them) could be a game goal.

Randy- thanks for the thoughts on biodiesel and vegetable fuels.

Kato- I am kind of with you on this and keeping the ease of fusion to a minimum.

[stormlion1]

I think the Fusion Power aspect has been addressed in the 4th edition by going from a twenty year power supply to a 18 month power supply before needing to be refueled. The Project vehicles are only good for a year and a half now and there is little project support around so those vehicles will eventually run out of fuel and the Teams need to search for a new mode of locomotion. The fun part is finding a old Internal Combustion Engine would be a viable alternative but it would count on where they are and the conditions. One wouldn't survive 150 years in a wet climate but there would be ones to find in a cool dry one. That or catch some horses or start riding bikes everywhere or actually go and dig up a regional supply base or possibly a supply cache.

[ArmySGT.]

I don't understand the dislike for fusion powered vehicles. In an interview with Kevin Dockery, questions were asked about the original play tests. Kevin's response was the game turned into a quest for fuel, meaning that despite whatever the PD planned the Team spent more time looking for fuel than the mission objectives.

I leave it along with the 20 year supply. I limit the out put in two ways. One the wattage output and two the power points that can connect to the reactor.

So there is two external 240 volt plugs, four 110 external volt plugs, and two internal 110 volt plugs. The output is limited to that of tactical 40KW genset.

The fusion powered vehicle is one of the advantages or tools in the tool bag for a Morrow Team out there on their own in the aftermath. The fusion power / electric motor is one thing that frees them up from a broken infrastructure and using a resource better suited to rebuilding a broken utility system.

[mmartin798]

I too like the fusion power. But doing the math and coming up with the need for about 18 liters of compressed deuterium to supply a reactor for 18 months of full power output, I found the 20 years to be a bit on the high side. That is why I end up with about 3 years in my game. That 18 liters at about 30% duty cycle would last that long and give more internal space for other equipment from the smaller fuel tank. Plus as I postulated in another thread, this makes the tank able to be the size of a scuba tank. In field refueling would be only slightly more complicated than swapping an LP tank.

Also don't forget how big a target gets painted on the team once it is known they have abundant power in that armored car.

[kato13]

I don't understand the dislike for fusion powered vehicles.

I like fusion to be part of the game as well, but the physics of a fusion generator small enough to fit on a dune buggy struck me as a 100+ year advance in many technologies.

As mentioned in the other fusion thread, you have issues with shielding, heat transfer, waste products, fuel, etc.

Just as if any of us went back to 100 AD (in Europe) we could probably make gunpowder and some sort of projectile weapons, but we could not move materials technology forward fast-enough that we could make an H&K G-11. There are just too many dependent technologies. Even if we took one back for analysis or copying it just could not be done.

That is why I put fusion in a larger package. It represents the projects best attempts to reproduce something Bruce either stole or knew the functional parameters for, but does not match it in terms of size or efficiency.

[kato13]

If there is some sort of fuel alternative that can stand storage for 150+ years, I would certainly like to know.

Alcohol, properly stored, would survive. It does not give you the same power per liter as gas, but it would survive storage much better.

T2k puts the energy output at about 33% for ethanol, but with a engine built with multifuel usage in mind it is about twice that. Couple that with effecient batteries, energy return systems and an electric drive system and you can get greater range than current vehicles using the same volume of gas.

[ArmySGT.]

That is why I put fusion in a larger package. It represents the projects best attempts to reproduce something Bruce either stole or knew the functional parameters for, but does not match it in terms of size or efficiency.

Per Canon, Bruce carried one back from the fusion. Thus reverse engineering took place to make many, many more. Bruce also appears in other games by Tucholka and Sadler so he can traverse dimension too.

[stormlion1]

I always figured the Fusion Power Source sat inside the where the original fuel tank had been located and while small, the rest of the space was filled in with shielding and other things needed to keep it safe. Refueling was as simple as plugging it in somewhere the job would be done. I also figured this also worked as a bit of a leash as well, a team going rogue had a fuel based leash meaning there gear would run out and the threat of a rogue team evaporates. The same for any vehicles captured by Krell or others. They can capture equipment but eventually its a unusable piece of hardware without power.

[mmartin798]

I also figured this also worked as a bit of a leash as well, a team going rogue had a fuel based leash meaning there gear would run out and the threat of a rogue team evaporates.

Rogue Morrow teams are smart. They would realize that happy fun time stops with no readily available energy. So they build some: wind farms, bio-deisel, etc. The reactor fuel will run out, but it is more a timer than a leash.

[stormlion1]

Very true, but all those don't compare to fusion and converting a fusion powered vehicle to a bio-diesel won't be all that easy. At least not without a really good garage. Something there isn't a whole lot of 150 years after the bombs.

[mmartin798]

Converting an MP fusion vehicle to a different power plant would be difficult. But why would they bother? They have more irregulars that they have trained up and equipped. These need transport and support as well. Easier to take and strip the MP vehicle and use the armor plates to selectively reinforce other vehicles. Sure keeping the LAV-300/V-150/Ranger intact might be a better vehicle, but it is only one. A F-350 with angled plates to allow air flow into the radiator but stop most rounds, a flip down glass plate to cover the driver and passenger and allow some visibility to drive it and an armored plate attached to the LMG mount to protect the gunner can be repeated 3 or 4 times with relative ease. Again, rogue Morrow teams are smart, educated, have engineering skills and could put together some technicals easier than even just trying to find an engine like an 8.3L Cummings diesel.

[welsh]

I guess this goes back to what you keep and what you toss. I see the logic of many of your posts, but in the end there are two problems.

(1) Fusion is just too great an advance on technology in the way its depicted. I could see a larger power station that creates the electricity necessary to power the vehicles and that these power stations could become key strategic assets of the project that need to be placed on-line within a short window, but having every team moving about the land with a portable fusion power station seems too easy an escape. Ok, you don't want them running around collecting fuel- fine. Utilize an alternative source of energy. Large wind turbines? Massive solar panel fields? There has to be some form of technology that isn't quite so advanced. I can see long-term batteries that last for a year or so, but fusion power.

(2) I know its canon- but the time and dimensional jumping Morrow has also been a thorn in the game. I'd rather have an organization that ran the math probabilities and predicted some massive global catastrophe was inevitable and had decided it was worth investing some kind of plan for when catastrophe happens.

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer if the game didn't becomes a search for fuel, but there are really no better energy alternatives? Bio or alcohol fuels seem a better choice and flexibility in energy development. Ok, large nuclear reactors, wind farms or solar power fields need to be built and defended, but why not make that part of the game as well.

There seems to be a trade off- how flexible and free do you want your teams to be vs how believable is the fusion energy and the problems fusion brings.

[ArmySGT.]

I guess this goes back to what you keep and what you toss. I see the logic of many of your posts, but in the end there are two problems. Don’t worry about it. Even if I do disagree, I do find the perspectives interesting and feel like a came away from the discussion with something else in the tool kit.

(1) Fusion is just too great an advance on technology in the way its depicted. I could see a larger power station that creates the electricity necessary to power the vehicles and that these power stations could become key strategic assets of the project that need to be placed on-line within a short window, but having every team moving about the land with a portable fusion power station seems too easy an escape. Ok, you don't want them running around collecting fuel- fine. Utilize an alternative source of energy. Large wind turbines? Massive solar panel fields? There has to be some form of technology that isn't quite so advanced. I can see long-term batteries that last for a year or so, but fusion power. One could argue for those. Hard to hide them something that big and have it sit offline. Large power plants need large workforces to run them, those need to be housed and feed. I suppose the regional bases could have power plants that can operate at many times in excess what the base would require and have such a workforce on hand.

The problem with wind turbines or large fields of solar panels is getting those built and running in the beginning stages of the 3-5 year plan with the whole of North America a radioactive and biowarfare plague hell. Those take a heck of a long time to assemble.

Batteries that last a year at 100% aren’t any more feasible now than a fusion plant. The best lithium ions are only good for a few hundred miles, hence the move to hybrids.

If you feel like fusion is going to get away from you, restrict the output. The V-150 can’t be the village powerplant and move around. The sockets on the outside are limited to one 220 and two 110. Even the output of the power plant can be restricted down to that of a 5000 watt home generator. The high torque electric motors needed to move a V-150 don’t require that much voltage only a lot of amperage.
(2) I know its canon- but the time and dimensional jumping Morrow has also been a thorn in the game. I'd rather have an organization that ran the math probabilities and predicted some massive global catastrophe was inevitable and had decided it was worth investing some kind of plan for when catastrophe happens. That is more or less what the Project has done. It seems the Nuclear War is inevitable (Terminator II Judgement Day?) but, Bruce can’t predict how or when. He can show proof, but tragically cannot prevent it. On the flipside, the rest seems to be people relying on predictions and models that they can grasp.
Don't get me wrong, I would prefer if the game didn't becomes a search for fuel, but there are really no better energy alternatives? Bio or alcohol fuels seem a better choice and flexibility in energy development. Ok, large nuclear reactors, wind farms or solar power fields need to be built and defended, but why not make that part of the game as well. Biofuels has been a disaster here in the U.S. without a nuclear war! The acreage to feed people and farm livestock diverted to make fuel for cars didn’t lower the costs and skyrocketed the costs of food. The yields of oils from acreage is pretty low. Low enough that a truck fleet would need to sit idle for half a year to build enough fuel stocks to operate usefully. The choice becomes feed the people or fuel the trucks.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html
There seems to be a trade off- how flexible and free do you want your teams to be vs how believable is the fusion energy and the problems fusion brings.

I prefer a mobile team with a fusion powered vehicle vs one that stops to barter for fuel or spends days harvesting high carbohydrate yield crops to make alcohol.

Having an armored car has been a bigger pain in the neck for the PD than it being fusion powered. You can’t get the players out of the can.

[RandyT0001]

Biofuels has been a disaster here in the U.S. without a nuclear war! The acreage to feed people and farm livestock diverted to make fuel for cars didn’t lower the costs and skyrocketed the costs of food. The yields of oils from acreage is pretty low. Low enough that a truck fleet would need to sit idle for half a year to build enough fuel stocks to operate usefully. The choice becomes feed the people or fuel the trucks.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html

Biofuels in the US have been a disaster because of politics. Rising fuel costs and rising food costs are not due to acreage diverted to biofuels. Per your link, cotton produces 35 gallons of oil per acre, peanuts produce 113 gallons per acre and according to this link http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=289052&DisplayType=nested a farmer only uses about 5-6 gallons of fuel per acre which includes tilling, spraying, and harvesting, including the truck to collect the crop as it is harvested. In fact, the website you referenced talks about the "choice" of feeding the people or fueling the trucks here (http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch) and, specifically, here ( http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html). There are communities that use biofuels in third world countries because it is cheaper than buying commercial fuels. In the absence of present US politics, biofuels are indeed a good alternative fuel source.

[ArmySGT.]

Biofuels in the US have been a disaster because of politics. Rising fuel costs and rising food costs are not due to acreage diverted to biofuels. Per your link, cotton produces 35 gallons of oil per acre, peanuts produce 113 gallons per acre and according to this link http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=289052&DisplayType=nested a farmer only uses about 5-6 gallons of fuel per acre which includes tilling, spraying, and harvesting, including the truck to collect the crop as it is harvested. In fact, the website you referenced talks about the "choice" of feeding the people or fueling the trucks here (http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch) and, specifically, here ( http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html). There are communities that use biofuels in third world countries because it is cheaper than buying commercial fuels. In the absence of present US politics, biofuels are indeed a good alternative fuel source.

I don't want to get into politics here.

I am thinking of the dump truck I drive on a regular basis. The computerized management system (the truck is county property and pretty fancy) says on an average run hauling 12 tons of gravel from 6500 feet up 20+ miles up Highway 285 to 8500 feet the average is 5.7 miles per gallon.

I am not worried about the farm usage to grown and harvest the crop as tillage can be made for a fuel producing crop or cellulose bearing crops can be distilled for ethanol on the side.

I am thinking of the heavy equipment, the semi tractor/trailers, the trains. Even with the mandate by Law to include 10% ethanol per gallon of gasoline (not feasible for diesel) the ethanol plants are shutting down due to costs.

It is possible, and more probable in a scenario like TMP where the population is so small the crops for fuel doesn't impact the food supply.

When the ethanol craze was in full production the U.S. Dept of Ag sold all of the strategic reserve of grains to stabilize the world market. The costs set off rioting in Mexico and is one factor in the Arab Spring mass protests.

[mmartin798]

One other possibility for alternative fuel is ammonia. Gallon for gallon you get the same energy as gasoline assuming you have an effective way of cracking it, like this: http://phys.org/news/2014-06-hydrogen-breakthrough-game-changer-future-car.html

Making ammonia in large quantities is a 1920's technology. Could fairly easily take place on an old coal mine or other significant source of methane. Plus you can use it as fertilizer, so there is a reason for communities to make it happen.

[kato13]

If you have energy and water you can crack hydrogen.

[mmartin798]

True, but using ammonia and cracking it lets you use hydrogen more easily as a motor fuel.

[welsh]

Sgt- I think the idea of restricting the capacity of fusion power is a wise call. That said, I am not sure if I agree with what you are saying about bio-fuels although the concern of having teams trying to spend way too much time collecting the materials for a bio-fuel could be problematic for a game. And while I agree that bio-fuels in the US has been difficult, other countries use a variety of bio-fuels more effectively. Brazil has been utilizing fuels based on sugar cane for awhile and Mauritius utilize a sugar derivative for much of their power.

As for batteries- you are probably right that long-life batteries are probably still a long time coming and so we have a stronger move towards hybrids. But I would think that more advanced generations of battery power (as well as bio-fuel) is perhaps a bit more realistic than fusion power. That said, I am no physicist so perhaps I am dead wrong.

Agreed- building a wind farm or solar farm when the country is supposed to be recovering from a nuclear war doesn't make a lot of sense. But it is a longer-term goal that the project probably should be thinking about- especially if the fusion power isn't long-lasting. Rebuilding civilization will require energy development. Depending on the campaign, that might be the broad goals of a project- developing and harnessing energy given the difficult landscape at play.

So far, I am liking Kato13's ideas on this, although I probably wouldn't go much further than regional fusion plants that can be utilized to charge vehicles powered by long-life batteries. This would put pressure on teams to recover regional bases, require some defensive thinking around certain fixed but strategically vital assets and force to operate closer with local communities.

[kato13]

So far, I am liking Kato13's ideas on this, although I probably wouldn't go much further than regional fusion plants that can be utilized to charge vehicles powered by long-life batteries. This would put pressure on teams to recover regional bases, require some defensive thinking around certain fixed but strategically vital assets and force to operate closer with local communities.

I am glad you found some of it useful.

I want to reiterate that I have total respect for canon Morrow project, but I came into the game a little sideways via the ProjectPhoenix.zip (http://games.juhlin.com/files/ProjectPhoenix.zip). I think this makes me a little more likely to mix things up a bit.

I originally had the fusion plants small enough to be carried in the bed of a HMMWV but I decided to scale that up to make mobility more restricted. I have quite a few plants that could eventually be available to teams, but I suspect that I would make something "wrong" with each of them.

Bolt Hole plant - Potentially Low on fuel
Settlement cache - Location known to 5-8 teams so very possibly already taken. This location could actually be staked out by those with a grudge against the project.
Regional powerplants - Location only vaguely known.


These options open up a lot of gaming possibilities if you want to keep teams running via fusion.

When I decided to use multifuel engines I did a lot of research into what is necessary for biodiesel and ethanol production. Beyond my discovery that Methanol is not an option (see here (http://http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=226)), I discovered that Twilight 2000 vastly overestimated the weight and vastly underestimated the production capabilities of small stills.

Analysis of real world equipment would produce a kit that significantly outperform the "small still" from Twilight 2000 (that comes in at 700kg and only produces 5 liters a day).

I am still working on exactly what a field project ethanol kit would consist of but the most basic kit I could come up with would consist of

1 X Corona Grain Mill 6kg per hour hand 12kg motorized
1 X Meth/Ethanol Refining Tower 20 L Distilation/hour to 96%
4 X Barrel 208L Steel, 16 Gauge Airtight lid
3 X Barrel heating bands
1 X Barrel Boiling Unit Multifuel
1 X Molecular Sieve Ethanol Dehydrator 25kg zeolite/heating unit/pipes
1 X Pump 20 GPM, electric Fueling Station

This comes in at around 280 kg and 40 cubic feet (the volume due to the fact that I have not yet been able to find durable heat resistant 55 gallon drums that nest). Please note it would weight 800 kg more during production but from a storage and transportation perspective these numbers are good.

Conservatively this setup would produce 15 liters a day from cellulose (with project magic or sulfuric acid) and 30 liters a day from sugar crops. With precisely Genetically engineered Yeast and Zymomonas you could probably increase those numbers by 50% or more. I feel the project would work hard on cellulose to ethanol (something that is being worked on now so this is not fantasy science). If they get that then crop waste can be a fuel source and eventually switch grass could be planted to provide a very energy dense crop.

The fact that you could scale up the 55gal drums with needing proportionally fewer refining towers, dehydrators and pumps means that as the scale goes up the production goes up faster than the weight. Volume would still still scale lineally until I find something that nests.

More permanent production facilities would use something more durable than 55 gal drums, but those will work in the field for a while.

Biodiesel Kits already exist in the world so I have already databased one.

Biodiesel Kit
http://games.juhlin.com/equipment/kit_list.html?parent=1907

If I recall correctly this setup, given sufficient oil (and pure alcohol) could produce something like 400 liters a day.


If I ever further refine these numbers or kits I will let you guys know.

[ArmySGT.]

Used for rain barrels and aquaponics after the food and beverage industry is done with them.

http://www.coloradotankandbarrel.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=37

[kato13]

Used for rain barrels and aquaponics after the food and beverage industry is done with them.

http://www.coloradotankandbarrel.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=37

These are great for final storage of ethanol or biodiesel or just for water storage. However I don't think they would take the 100C boiling heat nor the 37C fermentation heat and pressure that the 55 gal drums would.

I will defiantly add them to my project inventory though. They might be where the teams store their initial alcohol in their boltholes.

[mmartin798]

IBCs are made from HDPE, so it has a melting point of about 120C. Without knowing the pressures you are referring to, I can't comment about the suitability there, but if the temperatures are reasonably controlled, you should be able to manage 100C for a number of cycles before degradation takes place. Then all you would need to do is rotate the production containers into a storage role and put a fresher one into the production system. It may still be an overall viable solution if steel drums are not available.

[kato13]

My original research was influenced by home brewing related sites. There appears to be a strong prejudice against HDPE there, but that is probably related to an obsession with taste. They really push metal.

Looking at scientific notes regarding HDPE it very easily could be used for the fermentation phase. The heat retention characteristics of HDPE actually would help reduce the energy needed from the heating bands.

The boiling, evaporation and cooling phases would be difficult though. The resistance to heat transfer would slow the transition to boiling temps (water in the first case ethanol in the second) and significantly increase cooling time.


The nitty gritty details.
(Forgive any mistakes as this is from memory) With a high grade steel 55 gal drum Generally you need to see

2 hours to bring to a boil (1st Heating phase)
4 hours at 100 degrees (Breakdown phase)
2 hours to reduce temperature (cooling phase)
36-48 hours at ~37 degrees (Fermentation phase)
1.5 hour to bring to an ethanol boil (2nd Heating phase)
3 hours at ~78 degrees (Evaporation phase)


The metal containers work well as you can use the boiling unit to get the mix to 78+ quickly as you can heat the bottom to hundreds of degrees via direct flame. However they would need more energy input during the longer fermentation phase due to radiant heat loss. This requires a intermittent burn (less desirable but greater flexibility in fuels) or heating bands (very precise temperature control but needs electricity).

The raw materials can also assuredly stay in the container for the entire process without worrying about heat degradation of the container. If you have 4 barrels like my kit suggests you can set up a pretty nice rotating 4 day schedule. 1 barrel in phase 1-3 , 2 in phase 4 and 1 in phase 5-6

As I said earlier HDPE would be great for the fermentation phase and storage. I still need to look at details of energy transfer before I completely dismiss HDPE as a one container solution. My biggest concern is that direct heat by flame is not an option.

Using only external heat for boiling and radiant heat for cooling and expecting that heat to move through the HDPE entirely would would increase the production time. I have found some numbers regarding heating bands from totally electrical brewing sites. To reach a boil in this container i think you are looking at 8-12 hours at 20,000 watts. So we are probably seeing about a 33-50% increase in the total production time.

The heating would probably require a finely tuned and insulated electrical heating cover for the bottom 2/3rds of the HDPE container. As it is insulated it would need to be removed for the cooling phase. Cooling would be even slower than heating and could not really be assisted unless the electrical cover was dual purpose (heating/cooling). While possible and desirable this is getting more complicated (compressors/radiators/etc). I suppose this unit could also be used to heating and cooling tents or such as I always like multi use equipment when putting anything in the project.

I think hdpe could work really well in a larger setup and I will certainly consider it when I work on the project equivalent of the T2k medium and more likely large still.

edit.

In case anyone is using my production timeline I realized I forgot phase 7 which is running the 96% pure alcohol through the zeolites. The is independent of the heating characteristics of the containers but would add another few hours to the total process. I always assumed it would from Jerrycan to Jerrycan given the smaller volumes.

[Old Fart]

A good alternative for fuel used by my groups in TW2K is a mounted gasification unit built to burn wood. This worked best with gasoline engines as diesel engines must be modified. This is because wood gas still needs a spark to ignite. The most difficult part of making a gasification unit besides the welding is the filtration of the gasses so ash dos not get into the engine.

[ArmySGT.]

A good alternative for fuel used by my groups in TW2K is a mounted gasification unit built to burn wood. This worked best with gasoline engines as diesel engines must be modified. This is because wood gas still needs a spark to ignite. The most difficult part of making a gasification unit besides the welding is the filtration of the gasses so ash dos not get into the engine.


I think the predominant wood gassifier scenario here is static motors like generators. Reliable electric power is a wonder 150 years after the war.

[bobcat]

just to be the odd one here since everyone is going on about either liquid combustible fuel or fusion. what about fission? one would assume that if Bruce could travel through time/dimensions he would have found a way to utilize fission without all the steam punk currently used. even without breaking space/time there have been efforts to do just that as early as the 1950's. and given that a boy scout in a garden shed (http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html) can build a fission reactor small enough to fit in the trunk of his car one would assume the Morrow Project with far greater resources would be able to produce a lightweight nuclear fission power plant for their vehicles. (Ford managed to in 1958 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon) after all.)

[mmartin798]

Fission reactors would be very problematic. The reactions always involve highly energetic neutrons. These would require a great deal of shielding to make safe making a portable, high energy one virtually impossible. Even fusion requires us to be very selective of the reactants to eliminate the problem of high energy neutrons.

Both Russia and the US tried to make fission powered aircraft. The reason they never built one was they could not figure out a way to not have the crew suffer from severe radiation poisoning. The advent of ICBMs made both side abandon the idea.

[bobcat]

Fission reactors would be very problematic. The reactions always involve highly energetic neutrons. These would require a great deal of shielding to make safe making a portable, high energy one virtually impossible. Even fusion requires us to be very selective of the reactants to eliminate the problem of high energy neutrons.

Both Russia and the US tried to make fission powered aircraft. The reason they never built one was they could not figure out a way to not have the crew suffer from severe radiation poisoning. The advent of ICBMs made both side abandon the idea.

the shielding problem was solved during the feasibility testing. the problem they ran into with the nuclear just was the engine design caused it to irradiate the flight path due to the direct transfer heating system. also the idea of cooling the reactor with airflow from the engines meant that it would go Chernobyl if it were ever shut down.

granted this was the airforce during a time when MAD was thought to be a smart political move. one would think the Morrow Project would be wise enough to install another method of cooling the reactor that would also avoid the radioactive trail of destruction cause by direct air cooling.

[swaghauler]

A gen 4 Portable Fission Reactor (developed for the Navy by Westinghouse at Walt's Mills PA, by the way) fits in the length of a standard semi trailer. I saw one on it's way to the Navy a couple of years ago. Those power plants range in size from 10 to 50 megawatts. My father saw a "first?" generation version at Ft Greely, Alaska in 1962. It came in on a single tractor trailer. They went from burning 50,000 barrels (55gal each) of fuel oil a year, to ZERO barrels (for both power generation and heat). The unit is very portable. The technology has been around for a very long time (developed from shipboard units). The containment structure needed for fuel rod storage and to protect the users from any release of radiation in the event of an accident, would prevent the movement of these devices once they were put into use.

I think that these units would be stored in caches and that those caches would become "focal points" in game. Imagine what would be needed to construct the containment building (unless the planners constructed it underground at the cache site). You would be required to plan your movement based on the availability of this resource for power and stored units would be able to move to new locations as needed. The fuel rods could be an issue. I'm guessing that the planners could have figured out how to put those rods into cryo storage just like the players.

[mmartin798]

The fuel rods could be an issue. I'm guessing that the planners could have figured out how to put those rods into cryo storage just like the players.

Storage of the U235 fuel rods would be pretty simple. Just surround them in boron to minimize the energetic neutrons. The half-life of U235 is about 700 million years. Until you start using it as fuel in the reactor, it should stay fresh for 150 years. Though with MP having portable fusion reactors, why would you use fission?

[history1861]

I liked Steve Jacksons take on Fusion Power for the Project. Attached is a .doc I pulled from another Morrow Project site years ago. It had several articles written by Jackson about the Project. I know it's all technobabble, but it's at least realistic sounding technobabble! He did a good writeup on the computers used in the vehicles and another on the numbers involved in the makeup of Morrow Project teams.

[kato13]

I liked Steve Jacksons take on Fusion Power for the Project. Attached is a .doc I pulled from another Morrow Project site years ago. It had several articles written by Jackson about the Project. I know it's all technobabble, but it's at least realistic sounding technobabble! He did a good writeup on the computers used in the vehicles and another on the numbers involved in the makeup of Morrow Project teams.


Cool post. Thanks and welcome aboard.

[history1861]

Thanks, good to be here. I'm looking forward to talking Morrow Project with fellow enthusiasts.

[mmartin798]

I too like the ideas in Steve Jackson articles (available at The Supply Bunker), though I think his littoral ship is not quite right. I have been working on a design for one and it is comparable in size, but when I run the numbers, carries way more cargo than Jackson lists.

[swaghauler]

Storage of the U235 fuel rods would be pretty simple. Just surround them in boron to minimize the energetic neutrons. The half-life of U235 is about 700 million years. Until you start using it as fuel in the reactor, it should stay fresh for 150 years. Though with MP having portable fusion reactors, why would you use fission?

Cost and greater availability. I think you would see both in use but fission would make more economic sense for smaller facilities.

It also makes a good believable alternative those in this thread arguing against the existence of cheap fusion reactors. These reactors were actually in existence in the 60's.

[ArmySGT.]

A gen 4 Portable Fission Reactor (developed for the Navy by Westinghouse at Walt's Mills PA, by the way) fits in the length of a standard semi trailer. I saw one on it's way to the Navy a couple of years ago. Those power plants range in size from 10 to 50 megawatts. My father saw a "first?" generation version at Ft Greely, Alaska in 1962. It came in on a single tractor trailer. They went from burning 50,000 barrels (55gal each) of fuel oil a year, to ZERO barrels (for both power generation and heat). The unit is very portable. The technology has been around for a very long time (developed from shipboard units). The containment structure needed for fuel rod storage and to protect the users from any release of radiation in the event of an accident, would prevent the movement of these devices once they were put into use.

I think that these units would be stored in caches and that those caches would become "focal points" in game. Imagine what would be needed to construct the containment building (unless the planners constructed it underground at the cache site). You would be required to plan your movement based on the availability of this resource for power and stored units would be able to move to new locations as needed. The fuel rods could be an issue. I'm guessing that the planners could have figured out how to put those rods into cryo storage just like the players.

I think the greatest obstacle is sourcing the enriched uranium. Now that is not to say that the Project might not have built and stashed units like this in areas around the country. The intention being to release these to the Department of Energy and the Nuclear Regulatory Agency under FEMA in the 3-5 year plan.