4th Economics 101

[RandyT0001]

Just started this process. Anybody have a more detailed, step-by-step, explanation of going through the process?

[mmartin798]

Wish I could help, but I don't think you are talking Keynesian economics here.

[RandyT0001]

:wall:
I have read the examples on p.238 several times but I cannot determine for what purpose or process the multiplier in the Livestock and Aquaculture chart is used. If the author or contributor of that part of the book would explain that to me I would greatly appreciate it.
:confused:

[mmartin798]

While I do not have 4th edition, I can venture a guess. Since active and efficient livestock and aquaculture, i.e. cattle ranching and fishing, gives a good amount of food for a smallish investment of human labor you get more man hours for things like manufacturing and the like. Therefore, you get a multiplier for those. But it is just a guess.

Ok, a little more explanation of my guess may be in order. A tribe of people need to expend a certain amount of effort procuring basic food, water and shelter. If the activities they use are really bad hunter/gatherer, then all their work goes into that and nothing for economic growth. So Frank, Tom, Harry, Lisa and Mary are a tribe and all are out gathering food and can only serve their needs. Let's say Frank learns to Fish and does so very well. Now Frank is able to get enough food so that Harry and Lisa don't have to do anything for the tribe to survive. This lets Harry and Lisa to start making and stringing clay beads into jewelry. Now they have something the tribe can trade because Frank is able to fish and feed more of the tribe. Does that help at all?

[bobcat]

also lacking 4E at the moment but to expand on what mmartin said lets say i've got a small group of 10 survivors. if we're trying to survive by hunter/gatherer means we have to spend the majority of our time on that. this limits the time we can spend on shelter and other needs. if we have livestock we have more free time to spend on other tasks and are more readily able to spend time/effort/resources for additional pursuits. this allows us to increase our agricultural base to include more crops/livestock which further reduces the amount of time and resources we have to dedicate solely to survival allowing further economic growth and (i'm not sure if this is even in the game) increases the likelihood of making our own technological advancement or salvaging pre-doomsday tech.

granted if you permit population growth from surrounding groups of survivors moving in and increased birthrates due to excess free time you can almost achieve an exponential growth effect economically and technologically.

again however this is just how i've been wargaming the settlement developments in my games and may or may not apply to 4E. its just keynesian macroeconomics dumbed down to fewer variables so i don't go insane with my plotting.

[bobcat]

and now that i think about it i have a good idea for a GM tool to hack together in Java.

[RandyT0001]

Bump

Does anybody have a more detailed step by step process or flow chart for this section in the rule book? The examples do not flow from one to the next segment very well, there are too many gaps to follow the process.

[ArmySGT.]

Worker provides a base 2000 hours per year. The labor pool is 2/3 of the population to account for those to young, old, or disabled to be part of the pool.

Determine number of laborers.

Determine food requirements.... 300 kg wheat (or equivalent), 50 kg meat, and 150 L of milk (or dairy products) per person, per year.

100 villagers requires 100 x 300 kg or 30,000 kilograms of wheat (or equivalents).
100 x 50kg or 5000 Kg of meat

100 x 150 L or 15,000 liter of milk ( or dairy products)

Crop yield multipliers are crops other than wheat; corn is x2 of wheat, or yields 600 kg equivalent of wheat per year, per hectare.

The amount of grain to feed livestock is subtracted from the total out put...... it is part of the cost for meat and milk.

Tech level is key to how much is produced and how much land to do it.

Tech level D 40 (50) or 40 hours for 50 hectares. Yield at Tech level D is 1300 kg per hectare or enough for 4.3 persons per year.

30,000 / 1300 is 23.08 hectares of wheat. 23.08 x 40 = 923.2 hours of labor for the year.

For the animals ........ I am still baffled.

[ArmySGT.]

The base units and the input units is very confusing..... It comes in at the end apparently ......

What I don't understand is does it mean the amount of labor it took to get to that output (since the village foundation) or the amount per year to get that output?

[ArmySGT.]

I asked Chris Garland through the MP facebook page if an economics tutorial could be made and posted to Youtube. He wrote back that he will speak with the author of that section.

Could everyone else like or comment on that so it shows some interest from the fan base?

[robj3]

Hello all.

I wrote the Economics chapter but didn't have a chance to edit it for clarity.
I agree that the final text is far from clear.

In overview:
Start with the settlement's Tech Level and population.
Calculate the size of the labor pool.
Distribute workers into agriculture, mining/mfg/construction, distribution, services.

Work through each sector.
- how do I feed the population with the farmers available?
- how do I produce the raw materials the community needs?
- how is agricultural and factory product distributed?
- how are service workers distributed?
- how much energy is required to run everything?
- where does everyone live?


RandyT0001 wrote:
I have read the examples on p.238 several times but I cannot determine for what purpose or process the multiplier in the Livestock and Aquaculture chart is used.

It is the same as that used for other forms of crops. If wheat is 1, milk is 1/12.

Example:
At tech level E, each hectare allocated to wheat will produce 1,300kg per year.
If I run dairy cattle, that hectare will produce 1300/12 ~ 108kg of milk per year. But I'm going to need more area than that to run a cow.

ArmySGT wrote:
For the animals ........ I am still baffled.

For the 100 person village, you need to produce 5,000kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per year.

15,000L milk at Tech Levels A-C:
~83 hectares of pasture, requiring 15,000kg of corn equivalent feed.

5,000kg meat at Tech Levels A-C:
eggs - ~33 hectares for egg-laying chickens which need 15,000kg of feed
*poultry - ~43.5 hectares for broilers which need 12,500kg of feed
*pork/mutton - 100 hectares for pigs/sheep which need 30,000kg of feed
*beef - 200 hectares for cattle which need 65,000kg feed
*lamb - ~278 hectares for lambs which need 85,000kg feed
*shellfish - ~2.3 hectares which need 15,000kg of feed
*fish - 23 hectares which need 15,000kg feed

* This is for what is going to be eaten that year. Typically, 1/10 of a herd/flock is eaten each year.

Raising livestock needs a lot of land and food at any tech level.
Labor requirement falls away quickly with higher tech levels.
See the 'Tech Level Multiplier' table on p.236 (if my proof copy is the same as the final print).

What I don't understand is does it mean the amount of labor it took to get to that output (since the village foundation) or the amount per year to get that output?

Each worker has a base and input cost "expressed in labor years per worker at that tech level" (p.237).

The base and input cost varies with industrial sector - it is meant to represent the resources required to maintain productivity at that tech level.
Base is initial capital cost, inputs are annual maintenance, fuel etc. cost.

So a single Tech A farmer can manage 143 hectares of wheat in a 2,000 hour labor year, producing 314,600kg of wheat. This farmer needs 40 Tech A-years worth of equipment with annual costs of 3 Tech A-years worth of fuel, parts, pesticide, etc.

[ArmySGT.]

Hello all.

I wrote the Economics chapter but didn't have a chance to edit it for clarity.
I agree that the final text is far from clear. First let me say, thank you very much for taking your time to explain this here. Have you written a flow chart, or any step by step tutorials, for this economics section? I think it is one of the more important tools in the new edition.
In overview:
Start with the settlement's Tech Level and population.
Is this something the PD determines on his / her own? I did not see a min/max for this, or does the economics at the end determine if the population can support itself?
Calculate the size of the labor pool.
Distribute workers into agriculture, mining/mfg/construction, distribution, services. This is based on the percentages on page 237, correct? Everything is lumped under farmers but, raising livestock is a complete other vocation.
I realize that farmers often have livestock in addition to their crops, this is however more like a side job or alternate revenue. For a rancher or dairy operator the livestock is all the work, making for long days on its own….. I milked cows one summer. Seven days a week, twice a day, no days off. Not my fondest memory but, the pay was sweet for a young man.

Work through each sector.
- how do I feed the population with the farmers available?
- how do I produce the raw materials the community needs?
- how is agricultural and factory product distributed?
- how are service workers distributed?
- how much energy is required to run everything?
- where does everyone live?

I understood these were all modifiers….. So it begins with the total yearly hours for all farmers combined, as a base 2000 hours per farmer, without community traits.
One farmer = 2000, Ten farmers = 20,000

Can you explain how to determine the base value for inputs?

The necessities for pesticide, fuel, feed, material, etc; I understood what this was for but, not how to determine the base cost of inputs.
Pesticide and fuel would come from petrochemicals, while feed for livestock is diverted from feed (cereals) for humans. Then the other stuff; is input something that must be deducted from the village output? So that there is enough to maintain, or expand the following year?
The inputs have to be significantly different by tech level, yes?


RandyT0001 wrote:
It is the same as that used for other forms of crops. If wheat is 1, milk is 1/12.

Example:
At tech level E, each hectare allocated to wheat will produce 1,300kg per year.
If I run dairy cattle, that hectare will produce 1300/12 ~ 108kg of milk per year. But I'm going to need more area than that to run a cow.

Should the PD determine the food requirements for the village, and all the village livestock, then determine what the farmers are producing? That is how I would go about it. After everyone is fed, then I can determine who is growing a surplus for trade, or luxury items like tobacco.

The other thing is the time to yield……… I fully understand that a Tech A or B farmer on a tractor is going to out produce the lower tech levels. What effect does this have on village creation? Less farmers dedicated to feeding the population / livestock, and more producing surpluses for trade? Is this meant as a way to divert excess farmers back over to other trades? The base number of hours per year / hours per hectare yield simply means more hectares can be worked by one farmer? Am I reading to much into this?


ArmySGT wrote:
For the 100 person village, you need to produce 5,000kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per year.

15,000L milk at Tech Levels A-C:
~83 hectares of pasture, requiring 15,000kg of corn equivalent feed.

5,000kg meat at Tech Levels A-C:
eggs - ~33 hectares for egg-laying chickens which need 15,000kg of feed
*poultry - ~43.5 hectares for broilers which need 12,500kg of feed
*pork/mutton - 100 hectares for pigs/sheep which need 30,000kg of feed
*beef - 200 hectares for cattle which need 65,000kg feed
*lamb - ~278 hectares for lambs which need 85,000kg feed
*shellfish - ~2.3 hectares which need 15,000kg of feed
*fish - 23 hectares which need 15,000kg feed

15,000 kg of corn divided by the modifier for the corn yield at that tech level? This determines how many farmers are diverted to cattle feed?

Does this come from the base cost + inputs? Is this what has to be at a minimum, or a minimum plus seed for the next year? Wheat and Milk are the base of the food chain for people, and corn is the base for livestock? Should the PD be trying to vary the meat types? Wouldn’t rabbit, turkeys, and goats make more sense at lower tech levels without refrigeration and means to process a large carcass? Salt….. Animals need it, people need it, picking, smoking, and drying foods for preservation of meats need it. How would this factor into base cost and inputs? Salt may be easy for a village by the sea or in Utah, someplace is can be mined, others salt may be very precious indeed.


* This is for what is going to be eaten that year. Typically, 1/10 of a herd/flock is eaten each year.

Raising livestock needs a lot of land and food at any tech level.
Labor requirement falls away quickly with higher tech levels.
See the 'Tech Level Multiplier' table on p.236 (if my proof copy is the same as the final print).

Is the other 9/10ths part of the input or over and above the input for the succeeding year?


Each worker has a base and input cost "expressed in labor years per worker at that tech level" (p.237).

The base and input cost varies with industrial sector - it is meant to represent the resources required to maintain productivity at that tech level.
Base is initial capital cost, inputs are annual maintenance, fuel etc. cost.

So a single Tech A farmer can manage 143 hectares of wheat in a 2,000 hour labor year, producing 314,600kg of wheat. This farmer needs 40 Tech A-years worth of equipment with annual costs of 3 Tech A-years worth of fuel, parts, pesticide, etc.

I think how to determine the inputs went over my head. Are inputs equal to and in addition to labor years?

[RandyT0001]

So I am submitting this community to be used as an example for Robj3 to use in order to demonstrate the step-by-step process of creating a community. It is the largest town within the town classification.

Summerset, Kentucky in Pulaski County
Summerset sustains itself with food and meat. It exports opiates to New Manhattan. Summerset is the single source for tires for the Free State’s M35 trucks, P-47 planes and the V300 vehicles. The tire plant also exports tires for other trucks and cars used within the Free State. Summerset also exports lumber to New Manhattan to supply its building boom.

Tech level: C
Population: 5,000
Compassion, Discipline, Curiosity, and Organization at 50%
Labor force: 2,222
Agriculture: 222
Mining, etc.: 666
Distribution: 556
Other Services: 778

Agriculture
Required Food: 1,500,000kg
Cabbages, etc.: 300,000kg
Potatoes, etc.: 300,000kg
Corn: 300,000kg
Apples, Beans, etc.: 300,000kg
Wheat, Peanuts, etc.: 300,000kg
Required Meat: 50kg
Poultry: 40kg
Beef: 10kg
Opiates: (1-10 farmers worth?)

Mining, etc.
Extraction
Forestry – Must produce at least 365 tons per year of lumber for export. It also must produce 1/4 of the community’s yearly inputs.
Manufacturing
Refinery, coal to liquid plant – Must provide 800 barrels of oil per year for tire production. It must provide enough coke to serve as coal for the community’s power plant. It also must produce 1/4 of the community’s yearly inputs. The necessary coal is imported.
Tire plant – Must produce 1000 tons of tires for export per year.
Food processing - Must provide enough capacity to process 750 tons of food per year.
Workshop, general - It also must produce 1/2 of the community’s yearly inputs and that which is required for the manufacture of tires.

Distribution
Services and Government
Farms
Forestry
Community trade

Other Services
Services and Government

Education
Students: 1,250
Primary: 875
Secondary: 250
Tertiary: 40
Teachers:
(Structures, transportation?)

Health Care, etc.
Firefighter (full time):
Ambulance:
Doctor:
Dentist:
Nurse:
Pharmacist:
Beds:
(Structures?)

Law Enforcement and Military (quiet/mature)
Judiciary:
Police:
Soldiers:

Energy and Infrastructure
Housing: Density of 25 people per hectare
Transportation Network: Must have at least one rail line through the main town for importation of coal and exportation of tires, lumber and opiates.
Energy: Coal power plant burning coke from refinery.

[ArmySGT.]

In overview:
Start with the settlement's Tech Level and population.
Calculate the size of the labor pool.
Distribute workers into agriculture, mining/mfg/construction, distribution, services.
Tech Level E.. Late Steam 1880s (pg 208)
Large Settlement 300 persons
Organization. 60% Leadership 30% Domain 3km2 per person 900 km2 (Pg 212)
Community trait None (pg214)
Labor pool: 47% under 15, 50% 15-64, 3% over 64%, 141, 150, 9 (pg 236)
Labor pool = 150 persons 15-64 / .66 = 99 Laborers
2000 labor hours per worker = 198, 000. Tech level E multiplier 4. 198000*4= 792,000 labor hours per year. (Pg 236)
Work through each sector. Tech level E…. Farming 11-25, Miners, Makers, Builders 25, Deliverers 20, Services (32+. 99*0.25= 25, 99*0.25=25, 99*0.25 =25,99*0.32=32)
25+25+25+32= 104 (more workers needed than currently available…. Depending on farms output this may balance out with a reduction in agriculture workers. (Pg 237)
- how do I feed the population with the farmers available?
Agriculture Sector Tech level E. 80 hours per 25 Hectares per farmer (2khours per farmer per year)
Yield for Tech level E. 1300 kg wheat per hectare…. Supporting 4.3 persons base cost 6, input 1 (WTF is the explanation for base cost and input? Description in the rule book is lacking. Where do you use this? What are the modifiers per tech level?)
Can produce 900Km2 = 90,000 hectares (1 hectare = 10k meters2) One person requires 300kg equivalent per year. Village needs 90,000 Kg equivalent of wheat for 300 persons. 300*300=90000 (pg 237)
25 farmers with 25 hectares apiece per year equals 625 Hectares in farmland. (Pg 237) 812,500 kg of wheat per year possible; enough to feed 2708 persons annually. Outputs from other crops have their own modifiers (Pg237) 90,000kg wheat/1300Kg per hectare = 69 hectares = 2.76 or 3 farmers to produce the minimum wheat requirement at tech level E for 300 person.
Consumption = 50Kg meat and 150L milk per person per year.
Village need 300*50kg meat per person, per year, or 15,000 kg of meat produced. Village needs 300*150 liters of milk per person, per year, or 45,000 liters consumed as milk, cheese, butter, etc.
Milk = 180kg per hectare. 45000/180= 250 hectares to produce 45K liters with 2-10 hectares per animal, assuming 10 hectares for a cow and 2 hectares for a dairy goat.
This is where I quit again……. The table on (pg 238) has no explanation for the production, amounts per hectare, or why this spins off into man hours (to determine number of farmers) so one can eventually determine the kilograms per food type to feed the village.

So I can never get past agriculture to eventually get on to any of the other Economic sectors in determining whether a village is functioning or starving.
- how do I produce the raw materials the community needs?

- how is agricultural and factory product distributed?
- how are service workers distributed?
- how much energy is required to run everything?
- where does everyone live?

[mmartin798]

(WTF is the explanation for base cost and input? Description in the rule book is lacking. Where do you use this? What are the modifiers per tech level?)

My reading is that the base cost is used when establishing or expanding a farm for things like additional harnesses, tractors, buildings, etc. The input cost is recurring for things like seeds, fertilizer, etc. So it you are just building a settlement under the assumption it is functioning normally, you really can ignore all the base costs, since those would have already been paid, and just use the input costs to determine the overhead of running the farms in this case. Same would hold true for all the industrial and energy sectors.

All the descriptions of base cost talk about durable equipment and personnel training. That is why if the settlement is assumed to be stable, you can ignore those. If there was a plague or something that wiped out people, equipment or structures, the base costs would have to be paid again. At least that is how I read it.

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

[ArmySGT.]

My reading is that the base cost is used when establishing or expanding a farm for things like additional harnesses, tractors, buildings, etc. The input cost is recurring for things like seeds, fertilizer, etc. So it you are just building a settlement under the assumption it is functioning normally, you really can ignore all the base costs, since those would have already been paid, and just use the input costs to determine the overhead of running the farms in this case. Same would hold true for all the industrial and energy sectors.

All the descriptions of base cost talk about durable equipment and personnel training. That is why if the settlement is assumed to be stable, you can ignore those. If there was a plague or something that wiped out people, equipment or structures, the base costs would have to be paid again. At least that is how I read it.

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

This is what I mean..... the Base costs and the Input costs are useless in the initial determination of what is produced by how many for how much time.

Except... that it keeps getting referenced because you have to determine man hours to determine the number of laborers necessary for the production.

What gets me...... your not going to have a village that hasn't paid the base cost to build the agriculture.... they would have starved and died or disbanded.

[RandyT0001]

It does not work. It never did work. The person that wrote it has not tried to explain it. He's never going to explain it in a level of detail that people can emulate. He cannot explain it because it is a broken system.

Even if you did figure some way to make some sense out of it and create a community based on those guidelines/rules, there is nothing in the book that explains how the information is to be used to interact within the game's other material and/or the PC's.

IMO

[ArmySGT.]

It does not work. It never did work. The person that wrote it has not tried to explain it. He's never going to explain it in a level of detail that people can emulate. He cannot explain it because it is a broken system.

Even if you did figure some way to make some sense out of it and create a community based on those guidelines/rules, there is nothing in the book that explains how the information is to be used to interact within the game's other material and/or the PC's.

IMO

Posted such on the Morrow Project Facebook page.... maybe you and some others could do the same and we can get Chris Garland and Rob O'Connor to address this.

[ArmySGT.]

My reading is that the base cost is used when establishing or expanding a farm for things like additional harnesses, tractors, buildings, etc. The input cost is recurring for things like seeds, fertilizer, etc. So it you are just building a settlement under the assumption it is functioning normally, you really can ignore all the base costs, since those would have already been paid, and just use the input costs to determine the overhead of running the farms in this case. Same would hold true for all the industrial and energy sectors.

All the descriptions of base cost talk about durable equipment and personnel training. That is why if the settlement is assumed to be stable, you can ignore those. If there was a plague or something that wiped out people, equipment or structures, the base costs would have to be paid again. At least that is how I read it.

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

This gets two sentences to explain what they are for.... Then you figure out...... never to need it.. Ridiculous. (Pg 237)

[mmartin798]

I am in the middle of building a spreadsheet to do all these calculations. So far using it, I have been able to get the same numbers as the examples, but I am only done with the agricultural part. The way it works best is to just start with how much food do the farmers need to produce. The number used is 300kg of grain equivalent and 150kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per person. In Sgt.'s example, 90,000kg of wheat and 45,000kg of meat.

Now let's start with the grain. Tech level E produces 1300kg per hectare. Ignore the 4.3 as that is just another way to look at the same number that is more confusing for our purposes. 90,000kg grain requires 69.23H to grow. Now at tech level E, each hectare take 80 hours annually, giving 5,538.4 hours. Divide this by 2000 man hours per year and we require 3 farmers to support the peoples grain requirements.

You do the same thing for the livestock, only you do need to figure that you keep a portion around for breeding increasing the total amount of meat on the hoof. Once you know how much meat you need, you figure out how much corn is needed and repeat the processes for people above. If calculating for corn, remember the crop multiplier, since cultivating corn generates twice the weight per hectare as wheat.

This process duplicated all the examples for ag, so I kind of trust it.

[mmartin798]

This gets two sentences to explain what they are for.... Then you figure out...... never to need it.. Ridiculous. (Pg 237)

I wouldn't say you never need it. You just don't need it to start. Assume your TL E settlement has some bandits or a band of mercenaries that come through, take some food and then raze half the farm land. To rebuild those farm lands, you need to take the base cost and multiply by the lands lost to determine how many man hours to rebuild. You might have to reduce your iron output for a while to get the crops back. So the base cost has use, but not for building your initial settlement.

[ArmySGT.]

I am in the middle of building a spreadsheet to do all these calculations. So far using it, I have been able to get the same numbers as the examples, but I am only done with the agricultural part. The way it works best is to just start with how much food do the farmers need to produce. The number used is 300kg of grain equivalent and 150kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per person. In Sgt.'s example, 90,000kg of wheat and 45,000kg of meat.

Now let's start with the grain. Tech level E produces 1300kg per hectare. Ignore the 4.3 as that is just another way to look at the same number that is more confusing for our purposes. 90,000kg grain requires 69.23H to grow. Now at tech level E, each hectare take 80 hours annually, giving 5,538.4 hours. Divide this by 2000 man hours per year and we require 3 farmers to support the peoples grain requirements.

You do the same thing for the livestock, only you do need to figure that you keep a portion around for breeding increasing the total amount of meat on the hoof. Once you know how much meat you need, you figure out how much corn is needed and repeat the processes for people above. If calculating for corn, remember the crop multiplier, since cultivating corn generates twice the weight per hectare as wheat.

This process duplicated all the examples for ag, so I kind of trust it.

Could you demonstrate in some examples? I am trying the process over completely with a Tech E homestead of 10 persons.... smaller more manageable calculations.

[ArmySGT.]

Farmstead…. Single family plus farm hands…. Tech level E (late steam) (Pg 208)…. 10 persons.
Domain equals 0.5km2 per person 10*0.5 = 5Km2
This family homestead comprises 5Km2 of land supporting 10 persons and livestock.

Labor Pool Labor pool: 47% under 15, 50% 15-64, 3% over 64%, 141, 150, 9 (pg 236)
10*0.47= 4.7, 10*0.50=5, 10*0.03= 0.3
5 adults, and five children.
Labor year = 2000 hours for each adult. 5*2000 = 10,000 labor hours. Tech level E modifier for this is 4. 10000*4=40000
The farmstead with implements and decent knowledge averages 40,000 man hours per year. (Pg 236)
Division of labor (Pg 237)……. Tech Level E…. Agriculture 11-25%, Mining/Manufacturing/Construction 25%, Distribution 20%, other Services 32%
5*0.25= 1.25, 5*0.25=1.25, 5*0.20=1, 5*0.32 = 1.6 = 5.1 Labors….. Problem…. One of the children is now farming.
One farmer, one builder, one delivery, one caretaker accounted for, fifth person? We will see if we need another adult in another job if the system will yield results.
Feeding one person equals 300Kg equivalent of wheat(Pg 237). 10x300kg equals 3000 kgs to feed the homestead. (Pg 237). People need 50 kilograms of meat and 150 liters of milk (dairy products) per year.
10*50=500Kg and 10*150=1500L …….. though this is not explained if this is in addition to the 300 Kg of wheat or substitutes for all or in part……. I can’t determine from the text.
So the Homestead needs 3000kgs of Wheat, 500 Kgs of Meat, and 1500L of milk. Per year to feed the inhabitants adequately, I think.
Confusing bit….. Agricultural Sector table (Pg 237)… Tech level E…. Time per Hectare for a Tech level E farmer is 80(25) 80 hours per hectare and a farmer does 25 hectares in one labor year.

Except later in text farmers are farming 46 hectares for 1840 hours… baffled… is 25 hectares a limit that is then ignored? Is this meant to mean that at Tech Level E a farmer can work 25 hectares in 80 hours?
Next is yield….. Tech level E is 1300kg per hectare and supports 4.3 persons on that hectare (302.3kgs per person). Why does the persons per hectare matter? It isn’t used in any of the following calculations.
3000Kg/1300kg = 2.3 Hectares needed for just wheat. Domain equals 5KM2 or 500 hectares….. so space is covered.
3000kgs/1300kg = 2.3 hectares…. 2.3 = 160hours ( our farmer has it easy!)
On this table is featured the Base Cost and the Input cost….. and no reason why you need to calculate this.
Live stock and Aquaculture… (Pg 238)
You have an average yield per hectare…. Then a modifier….. to me ….. these contradict each other..
I can use the average and get one sum or the modifier and get another sum…..
So is it 180 liter per hectare with an animal using 2-10 hectares for pasture; or is the modifier of whatever the tech level produces….. Tech Level E is 1300Kg per hectare… 1/12 of this is 108kg or liter of milk with an animal using 2-10 hectares….. I am assuming (I know!) the 2 hectares is a milk goat and 10 hectares is a milk cow.
So which one?
Then, there is the corn equivalent ( corn modifier is 2) at Tech level E this would be 2600Kg of corn per hectare. …… so this is the corn needed to feed animals in grain to have them produce…… Does this come out of the farmers output or does there need to be another farmer..... See where the farmers production limit has produced something confusing?
So… Um milk cows. Do I have one or two?
The homestead needs 1500L of milk for a year…. This could mean 1500/180=8.3 hectares…. Or 13.8 hectares… Does the modifier 1/12 affect the manhours? Is it 80 (Tech E) divided by 1/12? Or is it still 80 hours per hectare? I think it would still be the full time requirement… so. 664 hours for 8.3 hectares or 1104 hours for 13.8 hectares. (farmer is a little busier (824 hours or 1264 hours)
Meat. The Homestead requires 500kgs of meat per year to feed the 10 persons.
Beef = 25kg average or 1/88 the equivalent of wheat per hectare.. 1300*(1/88) or 1300*0.011 or 14.3kg per hectare…… again which is it? 500kgs / 25kg per hectare equals 20 hectares of pastured beef or 500/14.3kg per hectare equals 34.9 hectares. 80hrs*20= 1600 and 80*34.9=2792 (our farmers is at either at 2424 labor hours or 4056 hours)

But, wait the animals need grain… milk needs 1kg of corn per liter produced and beef needs 13 kgs of corn per kilo of meat. So the homestead must produce 1500kg of corn for milk cows and 6500 kgs of corn for beef cattle. At tech level E…. 1300kg per hectare with a x2 modifier for corn. Or 2600kgs per hectare. 1500 + 6500 = 8000 kgs of corn required. 8000/2600= 3.07 hectares or 245.6 labor hours.
( the farmer is now at 2669.6 or 4301.6 labor hours.)

So we need 1.33 farmers or 2.15 farmers….. to feed the Home stead.

That would mean that this Homestead would have 2 farmer, one house wife, one ranch hand fixing everything, and one ranch hand in Delivery.

[mmartin798]

Sure. I just realized I quoted some wrong number for the meat anyway, so I will correct that here.

I will assume no exceptional attributes, so this is where we start:

Tech Level (TL): E
Population: 10
Volatile: 50%
Extrovert: 50%
Compassion: 50%
Discipline: 50%
Curious: 50%
Organization: 50%

The available labor pool is 2/3 of 50% of 10, or 3 people. At 2000 man-hours per year, we have 6000 hours available.

To feed 10 people, we need 3000kg of wheat and 500kg of meat.

At TL E, each hectare yields 1300kg of wheat per year and takes 80 hours per hectare to work and harvest. So we need 3000/1300, or 1.36 hectares of land to provide the people's wheat. This require 108.8 hours, so less than one farmer so far.

Let's assume they keep chickens, since they take up less space than beef. We assume they only eat 10% of the flock each year. So to get the 500kg of meat, we need 500/115 hectare of land, or 4.35 hectares for their coop and "grazing" area. They grow corn to feed the chickens. The amount of corn is 2.5*500/2 (the corn multiplier) or 625 kg wheat equivalents. But since only 10% of the flock is eaten, we need to multiply that by 10, giving 6250kg. Again, TL E produces 1300 kg/hectare, we need 6250/1300, or 4.8 hectares to grow the corn on. We add the two areas together, 4.35+4.80, to give 9.15 hectares. At TL E, each hectare takes 80 hours, so we need 9.15*80 or 732 man-hours per year for the chickens and their feed.

So to feed the settlement, we need to supply 841 man-hours, which is still one farmer. We now add the inputs for one person in the ag sector at TL E, which is 2000. The total man-hours to feed this settlement is 2841.

[mmartin798]

The biggest problem is the use of different units all the time. The calculations really need to be calculated in hours, but they keep quoting labor years. It really messes things up.

[ArmySGT.]

So we need 3000/1300, or 1.36 hectares of land to provide the people's wheat. This require 108.8 hours, so less than one farmer so far.

3000/1300=2.307 ........ Wouldn't that be 2.3 Hectares... 80*2.3= 184 labor hours?

[ArmySGT.]

The biggest problem is the use of different units all the time. The calculations really need to be calculated in hours, but they keep quoting labor years. It really messes things up.

The livestock table uses hectares for pasture on some animals and square meters for other animals. another area they should have stayed with one unit.

[mmartin798]

3000/1300=2.307 ........ Wouldn't that be 2.3 Hectares... 80*2.3= 184 labor hours?

You are quite correct. So that gives us... 916 man-hours and we will need 2000 man-hours of inputs since that is still one farmer.

[ArmySGT.]

They grow corn to feed the chickens. The amount of corn is 2.5*500/2 (the corn multiplier) or 625 kg wheat equivalents. But since only 10% of the flock is eaten, we need to multiply that by 10, giving 6250kg. Again, TL E produces 1300 kg/hectare, we need 6250/1300, or 4.8 hectares to grow the corn on. We add the two areas together, 4.35+4.80, to give 9.15 hectares. At TL E, each hectare takes 80 hours, so we need 9.15*80 or 732 man-hours per year for the chickens and their feed.

Shouldn't this be 2.5*500*2=2500 Kg of corn? 1300kg per hectare with x2 for corn = 2600kg produced for one hectare of corn. 2500 kg of corn for 10% of the flock?

[mmartin798]

Shouldn't this be 2.5*500*2=2500 Kg of corn? 1300kg per hectare with x2 for corn = 2600kg produced for one hectare of corn. 2500 kg of corn for 10% of the flock?

No, this is another area where the text is confusing. Let me rephrase things to make it clearer. Just like explosives have an RE value where C4 is 1, so too does crop yield have a Yield Effectiveness (YE) value where wheat is 1. Replace crop multiplier with YE and the calculations are the same. 1 of wheat = 0.5 of corn = 100 of cocaine.

So if I need x hectares for 50kg of wheat, I need 0.5x hectares for 50kg of corn and 100x hectares for 50kg of cocaine. I hope that is clearer.

[ArmySGT.]

No, this is another area where the text is confusing. Let me rephrase things to make it clearer. Just like explosives have an RE value where C4 is 1, so too does crop yield have a Yield Effectiveness (YE) value where wheat is 1. Replace crop multiplier with YE and the calculations are the same. 1 of wheat = 0.5 of corn = 100 of cocaine.


Hmmm ok..... What do you make of the multiplier? 1/12 for milk or 1/20 for poultry. Where does this fit in?

[mmartin798]

Hmmm ok..... What do you make of the multiplier? 1/12 for milk or 1/20 for poultry. Where does this fit in?

Since they are roughly linear to the hectare yield, I think it was an attempt to simplify calculations that just adds to the noise. It is never used in any of the examples.

I think I figured out what the multiplier is in the livestock. It is kind of stupid. It lets you express the land the livestock uses to graze in terms of wheat. It is just way too confusing to use when we can calculate it from the other numbers easier.

[ArmySGT.]

Homestead #2
Tech D (Early Electric)
10 persons. 15-64=66% or 6.6 rounding up to 7 adults . Labor pool = 2/3 of 7= 4.62 rounding up to 5.

Tech level D Agriculture 11-25%, Mining / manufacturing/construction 25%, Distribution=20%, Other services 32%
5*0.25= 1.25, 5*0.20= 1, 5*0.32= 1.6
Five adults, One Farmer, One maker, One Trader, 2 Other.

Consume = 300kg wheat equivalents x 10 persons = 3000Kg

A Tech level D farmer produces 1300kg per hectare at 40 hours of work per hectare and can harvest 50 hectares per labor year (2000 labor hours).
3000kg/1300kg= 2.30 hectares of wheat produced for a labor hours of 92 hours.

The homestead requires 50Kg of meat and 150L of milk per person to adequately feed them.

50Kg*10= 500kg of meat and 1500L of milk.

The Homestead raises hogs for meats like hams and bacon. Hogs require 6kg of corn for each kilogram of pork at harvest. 6*500= 3000 kilos of corn….. only 10% of the herd can be harvested to keep the stock healthy though. 6*500 =3000/2*1300 = 1.2 hectares or 40*1.2= 48 labor hours * 10 (10% is consumed) 480 labor hours keeping hogs for meat.
2.3 hectares wheat and 1.2 hectares corn. 2.3+1.2= 3.5 hectares * 40 hours per hectare…. 140 labor hours plus 480 hours herding hogs for 620 labor hours per year farming the absolute minimum.

[ArmySGT.]

Extraction.... the Tech D homestead is producing natural gas.....

A natural gas well is tapped to produce fuel for the tractor, heating the home and out buildings and cooking meals. The gas well equipment, pumps, vacuums, refining, and pressure bottling is occupies one laborer (1 (laborer) x 5 (output) x 500 (material conversion factor)= 2500 and occupies 125,000M2 ((2500x100)/0.5=125000) This produces 2500kg of gas or 2500*35.3= 8825 cubic meters of natural gas.

8825 cubic meters of gas for one labor year.

To build the well took 1 (laborer)*6 (output) = 6 labor years (6*2000=12,000hrs) to get started and 1(laborer)*3(input)= 3 labor years (3*2000=6000 hours) annually in upkeep.

[mmartin798]

Homestead #2
Tech D (Early Electric)
10 persons. 15-64=66% or 6.6 rounding up to 7 adults . Labor pool = 2/3 of 7= 4.62 rounding up to 5.

Tech level D Agriculture 11-25%, Mining / manufacturing/construction 25%, Distribution=20%, Other services 32%
5*0.25= 1.25, 5*0.20= 1, 5*0.32= 1.6
Five adults, One Farmer, One maker, One Trader, 2 Other.

Consume = 300kg wheat equivalents x 10 persons = 3000Kg

A Tech level D farmer produces 1300kg per hectare at 40 hours of work per hectare and can harvest 50 hectares per labor year (2000 labor hours).
3000kg/1300kg= 2.30 hectares of wheat produced for a labor hours of 92 hours.

The homestead requires 50Kg of meat and 150L of milk per person to adequately feed them.

50Kg*10= 500kg of meat and 1500L of milk.

The Homestead raises hogs for meats like hams and bacon. Hogs require 6kg of corn for each kilogram of pork at harvest. 6*500= 3000 kilos of corn….. only 10% of the herd can be harvested to keep the stock healthy though. 6*500 =3000/2*1300 = 1.2 hectares or 40*1.2= 48 labor hours * 10 (10% is consumed) 480 labor hours keeping hogs for meat.
2.3 hectares wheat and 1.2 hectares corn. 2.3+1.2= 3.5 hectares * 40 hours per hectare…. 140 labor hours plus 480 hours herding hogs for 620 labor hours per year farming the absolute minimum.

Your pork section is off. You are harvesting 500Kg of pork and leave an additional 4500Kg of pork alive. You need to feed them all and have land for them. I come up with 6*500*10=30000Kg of corn. That comes to 11.5 hectares, 462 man-hours. The land to graze the pork is 10*500/50 = 100 hectare, using 4000 man-hours. So the total land usage for just the pork is 111.5 hectare and requires 4462 man-hours a year. You need three people.

[ArmySGT.]

Your pork section is off. You are harvesting 500Kg of pork and leave an additional 4500Kg of pork alive. You need to feed them all and have land for them. I come up with 6*500*10=30000Kg of corn. That comes to 11.5 hectares, 462 man-hours. The land to graze the pork is 10*500/50 = 100 hectare, using 4000 man-hours. So the total land usage for just the pork is 111.5 hectare and requires 4462 man-hours a year. You need three people.

500kg/0.10=5000kg of pork on the hoof to cull 10% yearly.

5000kg*6Kg of corn = 30000Kg of corn. Animal feed.

30000/1300=23.07 /2 = 11.5 hectares of corn. 11.5 * 40 = 460 labor hours.

10*500Kg/50kg per hectare = 100 hectares for the herd. 100 hectares x 40 (TL D) = 4000 labor hours. 4000 labor hours for herding + 460 hours growing grain requires 4460 labor hours to raise hogs. 4460/2000= 2.23 farmers rounding up to three.

[ArmySGT.]

So what if I change it to turkeys and geese? Meat, feathers, grease.

10*50kg per person... 500kg of meat.

2.5*500 = 1250 kg grain to feed *10 (only 10% of the flock is consumed)= 12500kg of corn consumed as animal feed. 12500/1300= 9.6 hectares /2 = 4.8 hectares cultivated as corn for animal feed. 4.8*40 (hectares * TL D labor hours) = 192 labor hours.

10*500/115=43.8 hectares of range land. 43.8*40 (hectares*TL D hours)=1739 labor hours

192+1739 = 1931 labor hours for 500 kg of poultry.

[gbmaz]

I think it is awesome that this game inspires an in depth discussion of the economics system rather than a discussion along the lines of "The HP-35 is a stupid pistol, everyone knows the SOCOM .45 is the only pistol a real man would use. I totally kicked ass with it in Black Ops 3...."

[kalos72]

WOW! I just bought the 4thE....oh boy I am in trouble.

This much detail, way too cool. Now I have to rebuild all of east Texas with this. :P

[mmartin798]

So what if I change it to turkeys and geese? Meat, feathers, grease.

10*50kg per person... 500kg of meat.

2.5*500 = 1250 kg grain to feed *10 (only 10% of the flock is consumed)= 12500kg of corn consumed as animal feed. 12500/1300= 9.6 hectares /2 = 4.8 hectares cultivated as corn for animal feed. 4.8*40 (hectares * TL D labor hours) = 192 labor hours.

10*500/115=43.8 hectares of range land. 43.8*40 (hectares*TL D hours)=1739 labor hours

192+1739 = 1931 labor hours for 500 kg of poultry.

This matches my calculations. Less work, less land, birds win for the small land squatter. Now on to the extraction part of my spreadsheet......

[mmartin798]

Sgt, just did a quick experiment for you. You could raise beef and poultry to give your ranch some variety. The numbers are not too bad. (see attached)

[ArmySGT.]

This matches my calculations. Less work, less land, birds win for the small land squatter. Now on to the extraction part of my spreadsheet......

Have you done anything with mixing up the sources of meat?

Pigs and birds, Cows and birds?

[mmartin798]

Love it when great minds think alike....

Darn it, the calculations were not copied down. Here is the revised data. Not quite as pretty.

[mmartin798]

Took the ranch one step further and diversified the vegetables for the people and added some luxury items that can be used for fun and trade.

[ArmySGT.]

Took the ranch one step further and diversified the vegetables for the people and added some luxury items that can be used for fun and trade.

That is pretty awesome! Are you going to autosum the tables? Let the spreadsheet take care of the tallies?

[mmartin798]

Yes, I already have that happening in the Labor and Land summary on the second page. So far my spreadsheet modifies the labor pool numbers with the attributes and does the agriculture calculations. I should be able to get the extraction numbers working by tomorrow. Once done, I will release this as a tool to the group.

I am not making a click a button and generate a settlement tool. But it should let you easily figure out what your group can and cannot do with the people they have.

I do what opinions. When I do the calculations and come up with fractional workers, like the 1.38 in the last example, should it round up to 2 or would there be someone who would spend half their time helping on the farm? It would be easy enough to not round and assume there are people that have other chores.

[ArmySGT.]

Yes, I already have that happening in the Labor and Land summary on the second page. So far my spreadsheet modifies the labor pool numbers with the attributes and does the agriculture calculations. I should be able to get the extraction numbers working by tomorrow. Once done, I will release this as a tool to the group.

I am not making a click a button and generate a settlement tool. But it should let you easily figure out what your group can and cannot do with the people they have.

I do what opinions. When I do the calculations and come up with fractional workers, like the 1.38 in the last example, should it round up to 2 or would there be someone who would spend half their time helping on the farm? It would be easy enough to not round and assume there are people that have other chores.


I have so far been rounding fractional number up to a whole. I can't help thinking that the task is necessary.

[ArmySGT.]

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

Where to use and how to apply the "Traits" modifier is confusing me too.

Did you make any headway on how to apply these?

[ArmySGT.]

WOW! I just bought the 4thE....oh boy I am in trouble.

This much detail, way too cool. Now I have to rebuild all of east Texas with this. :P

Texas gets lots of attention with Lonestar...

How about the SouthEast United States? There are no canon publications for that region. Someone on the ground that can flesh out the real locations and plausible outcomes.

What happens to Florida the coast lines and the swamps with a global cooling and a 20 meter drop in sea level?

[ArmySGT.]

I think it is awesome that this game inspires an in depth discussion of the economics system rather than a discussion along the lines of "The HP-35 is a stupid pistol, everyone knows the SOCOM .45 is the only pistol a real man would use. I totally kicked ass with it in Black Ops 3...."

Heh, we have lots of those too.

[ArmySGT.]

What do you think of this suggestion?

Milk goats?

Dairy goat 75L for 0.5Kg equivalent of corn.

[ArmySGT.]

Homestead. (20 Persons)
Tech Level G (Multiplier 2)
Agriculture 20-50+% = 4
Mining, Manufacturing,
and Construction 18-25& =1
Distribution 9-17% =1
Other Services 20+% =1
Labor Pool 7
300Kg of Wheat per person, per year. 20x300Kg=6000Kg or equivalents
50kg of meat per person, per year. 20x50Kg= 1000Kg
150L of milk per person, per year. 20x150L= 3000L

Farming Tech level G
1000 hrs per Hectare
Farmer can harvest 2 Hectare per labor year (2000hrs)
Yield is 750Kg per Hectare

6000/750= 8 hectares of wheat. 8/2=4 farmers
Switch to Potatoes and corn= 4000/750=8 /5 = 1.6 Hectare. 2000/750= 2.66 /2 = 1.33 hectares
1.6 + 1.33= 2.93 hectares 2.93x1000 = 2930 labor hours or 3 farmers.

Lets add a vegetable garden Cabbage, carrots, onions, tomatoes, etc.
Potatoes 2000kg / 750kg = 2.66 hectares /5 = 0.53 hectares
Corn 2000kg /750 =2.66 hectares /2 = 1.33 hectares
Vegetables 2000kg /750 =2.66 hectares /7 = 0.38 hectares
0.53+1.33+0.38 = 2.24 hectares or 2240 labor hours.

More vegetables, less corn.
Corn 1000kg /750kg = 1.33 hectares /2 = 0.665 hectares
Potatoes 2000kg / 750kg = 2.66 hectares /5 = 0.53 hectares
Vegetables 3000kg /750 =4 hectares /7 = 0.57 hectares
0.665+0.53+0.57= 1.750 hectares or 1 farmer.

Live stock
Milk yield is 180 liter for 1Kg of corn. 3000L/180L= 16.6 hectares /2 = 8.3 hectares.
180Kg /750Kg = 0.24 Hectares /2 corn = 0.12 hectares
8.3+0.12 = 842 labor hours or 1 farmer (The dairyman also helps grow corn)

Meat…. Only poultry is going to work… if at all.
20x50Kg= 1000Kg to feed for one year.
2.5*1000*10= 25000kg of corn /750= 33.3 hectare (3330 labor hours)
20*1000/115= 173.9 hectares (3330+1739=5069 labor hours) 5 farmers.

All seven in the labor pool are fixated on food production.

[mmartin798]

Where to use and how to apply the "Traits" modifier is confusing me too.

Did you make any headway on how to apply these?

The traits apply to how many man-hours a single worker generates in a year. All the numbers for labor needed in Ag, Extraction, Manufacturing are based on a 2000 man-hour year. So 1 labor year = 2000 man-hours. But if discipline, curiosity or organization is high, then a single worker produces more than 2000 man-hours in a year. I did one example of a TL B town that was organized by members of one branch of the armed forces. I gave them organization and discipline both of 80%. This resulted in each worker producing 2360 man-hours annually rather than 2000. The traits also affect the number of workers from the population, again higher discipline giving a boost.

As an example, let's use the hypothetical ranch we have been using. If we up the discipline to 85%, we get a 14% Labor bonus (number of workers) and a 14% Labor hour bonus. Rather than the 5 workers producing 2000 man-hours per year each, this change gives us 6 workers producing 2280 man-hours per year each. It doesn't really change the fact we need 2 farmers with the extra productivity per worker, but we do get an additional worker.

[ArmySGT.]

The traits apply to how many man-hours a single worker generates in a year. All the numbers for labor needed in Ag, Extraction, Manufacturing are based on a 2000 man-hour year. So 1 labor year = 2000 man-hours. But if discipline, curiosity or organization is high, then a single worker produces more than 2000 man-hours in a year. I did one example of a TL B town that was organized by members of one branch of the armed forces. I gave them organization and discipline both of 80%. This resulted in each worker producing 2360 man-hours annually rather than 2000. The traits also affect the number of workers from the population, again higher discipline giving a boost.

As an example, let's use the hypothetical ranch we have been using. If we up the discipline to 85%, we get a 14% Labor bonus (number of workers) and a 14% Labor hour bonus. Rather than the 5 workers producing 2000 man-hours per year each, this change gives us 6 workers producing 2280 man-hours per year each. It doesn't really change the fact we need 2 farmers with the extra productivity per worker, but we do get an additional worker.


Ok, I was wondering what percentage they were talking about...I though that the text was talking about the labor distribution percentage.

They mean the community traits, as listed, per each encounter group establishing that settlement..... Aka Krell, Ballooners, Badges, Frozen Chosen, etc.

[mmartin798]

They mean the community traits, as listed, per each encounter group establishing that settlement..... Aka Krell, Ballooners, Badges, Frozen Chosen, etc.

Yes, though I get the feeling that those are average values for those groups and that there may be some variability in them. For instance, not all townspeople will be straight 50% across all traits everywhere.

[mmartin798]

What do you think of this suggestion?

Milk goats?

Dairy goat 75L for 0.5Kg equivalent of corn.

I haven't been ignoring this, just doing some research. I did find data to support the bovine dairy numbers. In tropical regions with cow density at 1 per hectare grazing on pretty poor grass give between 120-300 Kg of milk per year (Milk is typically measured by weight wholesale), using 180 seems low but not total unreasonable. My data on goat production gives me about 1248 Kg per goat, but this is for goats in Oklahoma eating a high nutrition diet. Also, I am not sure how many goats per hectare is reasonable.

So I am still at odds what sounds good here.

[ArmySGT.]

I haven't been ignoring this, just doing some research. I did find data to support the bovine dairy numbers. In tropical regions with cow density at 1 per hectare grazing on pretty poor grass give between 120-300 Kg of milk per year (Milk is typically measured by weight wholesale), using 180 seems low but not total unreasonable. My data on goat production gives me about 1248 Kg per goat, but this is for goats in Oklahoma eating a high nutrition diet. Also, I am not sure how many goats per hectare is reasonable.

So I am still at odds what sounds good here.

http://extension.psu.edu/business/ag-alternatives/livestock/sheep-and-goats/dairy-goat-production

http://www.milkproduction.com/Global/PDFs/Bestmanagementpracticesfordairygoatfarmers.pdf

[mmartin798]

That second PDF was really helpful. But my bovine research, to get a reference point, says the numbers in the chart for milk are no where near real world. Even if I were to assume 1 cow per hectare (real world is in the 2-4 range), we get 50Kg feed per cow per day and get annual milk yields of 1500-2300 Kg. That's ONE COW! Granted, we are assuming decent feed, but we are growing corn for them, so...

Ok, Goat can graze at a rate of about 6:1 compared to cows.
Goats eat about 2Kg/day
Goat give about 3Kg milk per day for 300 days, for about 900Kg/year
Goat are more prone to parasitic disease, so would require more care.
Bovine are under rated for yield in the book by about 10:1.
Bovine density in the book is 0.5 vs. about 3 rl.

For dairy goats, how does yield/hectare of 90Kg with 0.6 Kg corn to help account for the extra care they take to avoid disease?

[ArmySGT.]

That second PDF was really helpful. But my bovine research, to get a reference point, says the numbers in the chart for milk are no where near real world. Even if I were to assume 1 cow per hectare (real world is in the 2-4 range), we get 50Kg feed per cow per day and get annual milk yields of 1500-2300 Kg. That's ONE COW! Granted, we are assuming decent feed, but we are growing corn for them, so...

Ok, Goat can graze at a rate of about 6:1 compared to cows.
Goats eat about 2Kg/day
Goat give about 3Kg milk per day for 300 days, for about 900Kg/year
Goat are more prone to parasitic disease, so would require more care.
Bovine are under rated for yield in the book by about 10:1.
Bovine density in the book is 0.5 vs. about 3 rl.

For dairy goats, how does yield/hectare of 90Kg with 0.6 Kg corn to help account for the extra care they take to avoid disease?

The less feed can account for goats are browsers and prefer leaves to grass stems.

Cows should be putting out more but, are dependent on grain for max yields. So maybe the 180 is a middle figure assuming more pasture and less grain?

Though why force you to grow corn? BTW cattle eat turnips and cabbage too.... also there is no in game factor for sillage, a bi product of raising corn which should reduce consumption by 1/3 of grain.

For cabbage and turnips you do (or should) grate the vegetable like you would for coleslaw...... there was even a foot powered tool that spun like a grinding wheel and you fed in cabbages from the side like a deli slicer.

[ArmySGT.]

Atleast Extraction goes together pretty simply....

Assuming you have any laborers... pick something that is reasonable for your location.

Laborers x Tech level output x material conversion factor.

Our tech level G homestead is struggling with everyone working night and day just to eat. The tech level D homestead make enough food that they have laborers engaged in other things.

So how about ..... Wood cutters supplying river boats with firewood for the steam boilers.....

2x5x0.125=1.25 or 625Kg of firewood per day.

Edit..... 500kg = a cubic meter.. The conversion factor for this is 1/8 or one eighth..... that just seems really, really low.... given saws, axes, mauls, and wedges have been around since antiquity. People fell, cut, split, and stack multiple cords in a day with unpowered tools. A cord of wood is 8 feet long by 4 feet wide by 4 feet high.. or 2.44m x 1.22m x 1.22m .... A rick is half a cord or 8 long x 2 by 2.

[ArmySGT.]

That second PDF was really helpful. But my bovine research, to get a reference point, says the numbers in the chart for milk are no where near real world. Even if I were to assume 1 cow per hectare (real world is in the 2-4 range), we get 50Kg feed per cow per day and get annual milk yields of 1500-2300 Kg. That's ONE COW! Granted, we are assuming decent feed, but we are growing corn for them, so...

Ok, Goat can graze at a rate of about 6:1 compared to cows.
Goats eat about 2Kg/day
Goat give about 3Kg milk per day for 300 days, for about 900Kg/year
Goat are more prone to parasitic disease, so would require more care.
Bovine are under rated for yield in the book by about 10:1.
Bovine density in the book is 0.5 vs. about 3 rl.

For dairy goats, how does yield/hectare of 90Kg with 0.6 Kg corn to help account for the extra care they take to avoid disease?

Good news...... Tobacco, more specifically nicotine, is a natural dewormer and kills or drives out those intestinal parasites. Goats will eat it right up.

A goat farmer might need to grow tobacco to have a healthy herd.

[mmartin798]

The manufacturing sector is proving troublesome to represent easily. You end up with things like, "Need the coal mining to feed the gasifier, the gasifier feeds the chemical plant, the chemical plant feed the workshop and the farms, the workshop feed the mine, the all need power." On top of this, the products from the factories/refineries/smelters all generate thing in either barrels, tons or just man-hours. Let's try a "simple" example.

There is a community with a coal mining operation to supply fuel and feedstocks. A portion of the coal goes to the power plant. The rest goes to the coal gasification plant (actually treated as a refinery space) and the outputs are barrels of fuels, tons of coke and coal tar and presumably syngas in cubic meters. The fuel can be used for vehicles directly, the coke used to generate additional power at the plant or used in the smelter and the coal tar and syngas can be supplied to a chemical plant to make fertilizer (ammonia), methanol, acetaminophen, and other chemicals in various units. Some of these are use by the workshop to make explosives and such to supply inputs to the mine, presumably only in labor units thankfully.

Any ideas on how this combination of intermixed inputs and output might be best represented for use?

[ArmySGT.]

The manufacturing sector is proving troublesome to represent easily. You end up with things like, "Need the coal mining to feed the gasifier, the gasifier feeds the chemical plant, the chemical plant feed the workshop and the farms, the workshop feed the mine, the all need power." On top of this, the products from the factories/refineries/smelters all generate thing in either barrels, tons or just man-hours. Let's try a "simple" example.

There is a community with a coal mining operation to supply fuel and feedstocks. A portion of the coal goes to the power plant. The rest goes to the coal gasification plant (actually treated as a refinery space) and the outputs are barrels of fuels, tons of coke and coal tar and presumably syngas in cubic meters. The fuel can be used for vehicles directly, the coke used to generate additional power at the plant or used in the smelter and the coal tar and syngas can be supplied to a chemical plant to make fertilizer (ammonia), methanol, acetaminophen, and other chemicals in various units. Some of these are use by the workshop to make explosives and such to supply inputs to the mine, presumably only in labor units thankfully.

Any ideas on how this combination of intermixed inputs and output might be best represented for use?

Reading this again and again... First off ...... how can this work if you don't have enough workers (all farmers growing corn!) and extraction (coal typically)........

Maybe it is indicative of the setting? Post apocalyptic... things don't work because it is all broke down?

[mmartin798]

Clearly, if you don't have the workers, you fall back to more agricultural work. You have a small oil press for your excess crops to make vegetable oil than can be used directly, or you can make some methanol via wood gasification and convert some of that vegetable oil into biodiesel. Yields would be low though.

As a family or settlement, you have more kids. Nothing says more production than more hands, even if they start out little. Once you have three generation going with the help of marrying friendly neighbors or "acquiring" a spouse by some means, you have a workforce that will start to have excess time.

Again we need to balance this out with some reason. If we need a settlement, then we make one with the required number of people or have had a massive die out by aggression, disease or some other method that has now makes for run down infrastructure, but a reason they might have saved the gasification plant and biodiesel production capacity even if they cannot really make a new one or repair the one they have once something major gives out.

My problem was if we assume one or more TL C or TL B communities that are either self sufficient or working together, how can I represent the data in the tool I am building. I think I have that worked out, I just need to implement my idea and see if it fixes my problem.

[ArmySGT.]

Clearly, if you don't have the workers, you fall back to more agricultural work. You have a small oil press for your excess crops to make vegetable oil than can be used directly, or you can make some methanol via wood gasification and convert some of that vegetable oil into biodiesel. Yields would be low though.

As a family or settlement, you have more kids. Nothing says more production than more hands, even if they start out little. Once you have three generation going with the help of marrying friendly neighbors or "acquiring" a spouse by some means, you have a workforce that will start to have excess time.

Again we need to balance this out with some reason. If we need a settlement, then we make one with the required number of people or have had a massive die out by aggression, disease or some other method that has now makes for run down infrastructure, but a reason they might have saved the gasification plant and biodiesel production capacity even if they cannot really make a new one or repair the one they have once something major gives out.

My problem was if we assume one or more TL C or TL B communities that are either self sufficient or working together, how can I represent the data in the tool I am building. I think I have that worked out, I just need to implement my idea and see if it fixes my problem.

So are thinking a tree sided trade route? Farmers produce excess food (edibles) and wheat for alcohol or canola for biodiesel. Extractors, free from raising crops produce ethanol and biodiesel for drinking and running engines, manufactures, using the biodiesel, make tools and repair parts for the farmers and extractors; while consuming food and biodiesel.

[mmartin798]

I think I have found the most broken part of the economics section. It is energy. Trying to duplicate the examples finds that the table has ranges for things like fuel requirements and the area taken up by the power plant of that type. The Hope example just pull a couple numbers arbitrarily from the ranges. The Grinder example does so as well, plus it adds a factor for burning wood that is not mentioned anywhere. Makes building a spreadsheet for the calculations harder when there are numbers that just get made up as they go along.

[ArmySGT.]

Any ideas on how this combination of intermixed inputs and output might be best represented for use?

First I note.... Your dependent on the surplus from agriculture to start anything.

This can only be reconciled as man hours or as kilograms of material.... Typically kilograms, to be converted, as feed stock for another process. Typically ethanol or biodiesel for fuel... to run tractors or generators.

Also, as Kilos for conversion as lumber or firewood to build shoring for mines or burn to generate steam.

The conversions, and all the different units is making this difficult.

Flow charts! Writers make flow charts..... practice your equations before doing this to people.

The other thing ......... You need to add up the man hours from labor NOT farming to do this work anyway..... it is one of your inputs for manufacture.......

This is sooooooo frustrating.

[ArmySGT.]

Clearly, if you don't have the workers, you fall back to more agricultural work. You have a small oil press for your excess crops to make vegetable oil than can be used directly, or you can make some methanol via wood gasification and convert some of that vegetable oil into biodiesel. Yields would be low though.

As a family or settlement, you have more kids. Nothing says more production than more hands, even if they start out little. Once you have three generation going with the help of marrying friendly neighbors or "acquiring" a spouse by some means, you have a workforce that will start to have excess time.

Again we need to balance this out with some reason. If we need a settlement, then we make one with the required number of people or have had a massive die out by aggression, disease or some other method that has now makes for run down infrastructure, but a reason they might have saved the gasification plant and biodiesel production capacity even if they cannot really make a new one or repair the one they have once something major gives out.

My problem was if we assume one or more TL C or TL B communities that are either self sufficient or working together, how can I represent the data in the tool I am building. I think I have that worked out, I just need to implement my idea and see if it fixes my problem.

I think I may have to spend some time crunching numbers...... what is the minimum size for the lower tech levels to get out of pure agriculture.....

I feel that low tech levels and small populations is the general rule for a setting like the Morrow Project... A broken dystopian future needing a spark, mentors from the past that can make the minor repairs and get it all working again.

To many C, B, or A level cultures and it feels like the recovery is happening with the Project and their meddling would even be setting back progress. Their efforts would breakdown or disrupt events and stop progress as they unbalance cultures and alliances.

So I have to know what is the population minimums to have recovery.. to have extraction, manufacturing, energy production, to get civil services going again.

Is that 100 at Tech D? 500 at tech D?
I will have to school myself on Excel formulas again and get that automated then get some rendered.

[mmartin798]

I think I may have to spend some time crunching numbers...... what is the minimum size for the lower tech levels to get out of pure agriculture.....

I feel that low tech levels and small populations is the general rule for a setting like the Morrow Project... A broken dystopian future needing a spark, mentors from the past that can make the minor repairs and get it all working again.

To many C, B, or A level cultures and it feels like the recovery is happening with the Project and their meddling would even be setting back progress. Their efforts would breakdown or disrupt events and stop progress as they unbalance cultures and alliances.

So I have to know what is the population minimums to have recovery.. to have extraction, manufacturing, energy production, to get civil services going again.

Is that 100 at Tech D? 500 at tech D?
I will have to school myself on Excel formulas again and get that automated then get some rendered.

Is the assumption that they have the technical knowledge to advance and just need the resources in this calculation? It is perfectly possible to have a tech level G community of a thousand or more using simple plows and animal power to feed them all well and just not having the knowledge to advance their metallurgy to advance to steam power.

[ArmySGT.]

Is the assumption that they have the technical knowledge to advance and just need the resources in this calculation? It is perfectly possible to have a tech level G community of a thousand or more using simple plows and animal power to feed them all well and just not having the knowledge to advance their metallurgy to advance to steam power.

I think it plays a major part in these formulas...... You can't get some industries going because you don't have enough labor. So there has to be a population factor involved.

[mmartin798]

I think it plays a major part in these formulas...... You can't get some industries going because you don't have enough labor. So there has to be a population factor involved.

Using the spreadsheet I still have under development, I did some runs on a TL E community of 100 souls. If all the traits are at 50%, they are just subsistance farmers with little labor left over beyond what is needed to get fuel for the fires and move things around.

But if we have TL E community of 100 souls with all traits at 50% except for Discipline and Curiosity, which both are at 75%. This community is more productive in agriculture that, with the same food list as the first one, we go from needing 50% of the workforce busy farming down to 38%. This is in part due to the increase in worker productivity from 2000 hours per year to 2300 hours per year and the increase in workers in workforce from 34 people to 39 people.

This all makes sense and is very germane to the current discussion. If a community is just plodding along with no real desire to explore, complacent in their ways, it won't really innovate. They will stay put tech level wise. But if they are curious and well disciplined, they will be looking for ways to improve and be more productive and be more likely to move up in tech level as they build surplus.

[WallShadow]

5,000kg meat at Tech Levels A-C:
eggs - ~33 hectares for egg-laying chickens which need 15,000kg of feed
*poultry - ~43.5 hectares for broilers which need 12,500kg of feed
*pork/mutton - 100 hectares for pigs/sheep which need 30,000kg of feed

Does this equations take into account the free-ranging of chickens and pigs? Poultry (and therefore, egg production) have historically benefited from eating multitudes of insects as supplements to their cultivated feed diets. Incidentally, humans have simultaneously benefited from the side-effect of reduced insect pest populations.
Swine have historically benefited from the leftover organic wastes from human foodstuffs.

Raising livestock needs a lot of land and food at any tech level.
Labor requirement falls away quickly with higher tech levels.
<SNIP>
Each worker has a base and input cost "expressed in labor years per worker at that tech level" (p.237).
In older times the "too old" and "too young" were allotted duties suited to their capabilities--knitting, poultry herding, sewing, other craftwork. The fact that they were not necessarily directly involved with food productions didn't mean that they weren't doing work that would have necessitated time and effort from a food-producing adult.

[mmartin798]

A far way back in this thread, RandyT0001 suggested a community named Sommerset be defined using the economics rule from the 4th edition. The attached PDF goes through that process and is the best I have been able to do from my work trying to understand the rules.

[ArmySGT.]

A far way back in this thread, RandyT0001 suggested a community named Sommerset be defined using the economics rule from the 4th edition. The attached PDF goes through that process and is the best I have been able to do from my work trying to understand the rules.

Well done!

[kalos72]

I LOVE what you guys are trying to do here but...and this is a question on their numbers not your efforts.

Am I reading that between cows and chickens you will need almost 40000 hectares of land? Thats like 150 square miles...thats not possible. Is it?

[ArmySGT.]

I LOVE what you guys are trying to do here but...and this is a question on their numbers not your efforts.

Am I reading that between cows and chickens you will need almost 40000 hectares of land? Thats like 150 square miles...thats not possible. Is it?

That is grazing land..... there are ranches it takes a whole day to drive across out here in the West.

[kalos72]

I get that, but it seem feasible for 36 LE/Military personnel to be able to secure 155 square miles alone?

Just seems like an awful lot of land to feed 5000 people. I wonder how that same community would fair with a more advance tech level...

[mmartin798]

The economics rules do not change the amount of land needed based on tech level. Only the number of workers needed to tend them. Plus you have to remember the purpose of the exercise was to build according to the rules, and some of them are broken.

To give an idea, the number of cattle Sommerset has can be calculated. The beef operation generates 50,000 kg of beef for the population. That is only 10% of the total herd. So multiply by 10 and you get 500,000 kg if you slaughtered the entire herd. An average 454 kg steer will yield about 340 kg of meat. Dividing 500,000 by 340 gives around 1465 head of cattle. The USDA recommendations for land per animal is about 0.8 Ha per head. So in the real world you should be able to get away with 1200 Ha. The rules say 2-10 Ha per head, so 3000 Ha on the low end and 15000 Ha on the high end. The rules are a little broken if we try to bend real world absolutes into it. This section of the rules could use an edit to make it better. But for now, it is what we have.

[ArmySGT.]

I get that, but it seem feasible for 36 LE/Military personnel to be able to secure 155 square miles alone?

Just seems like an awful lot of land to feed 5000 people. I wonder how that same community would fair with a more advance tech level...

One Riot, One Ranger.

The Texas Rangers comes to mind.

Actually, you only have to secure key points of land. The water, water crossings, the herd itself.

You don't have to be on every part of it all the time.

[ArmySGT.]

The economics rules do not change the amount of land needed based on tech level. Only the number of workers needed to tend them. Plus you have to remember the purpose of the exercise was to build according to the rules, and some of them are broken.

To give an idea, the number of cattle Sommerset has can be calculated. The beef operation generates 50,000 kg of beef for the population. That is only 10% of the total herd. So multiply by 10 and you get 500,000 kg if you slaughtered the entire herd. An average 454 kg steer will yield about 340 kg of meat. Dividing 500,000 by 340 gives around 1465 head of cattle. The USDA recommendations for land per animal is about 0.8 Ha per head. So in the real world you should be able to get away with 1200 Ha. The rules say 2-10 Ha per head, so 3000 Ha on the low end and 15000 Ha on the high end. The rules are a little broken if we try to bend real world absolutes into it. This section of the rules could use an edit to make it better. But for now, it is what we have.

Thinking on this........ Maybe the authors data accounts for rather dry low country like Texas or Australia. If so that raises the land necessary for graze substantially higher.... In a temperate environment or a wetter one like coastal low lands were the foliage is thick and returns faster alot less territory is necessary.

So the hectares section really should have a geographical or environmental modifier associated with it.

Given the wide variable of 2-10 hectares, it is probably meant too.

[mmartin798]

Thinking on this........ Maybe the authors data accounts for rather dry low country like Texas or Australia. If so that raises the land necessary for graze substantially higher.... In a temperate environment or a wetter one like coastal low lands were the foliage is thick and returns faster alot less territory is necessary.

So the hectares section really should have a geographical or environmental modifier associated with it.

Given the wide variable of 2-10 hectares, it is probably meant too.

That would also explain in part the need for additional feed with the low quality foraging available that climate too.

[ArmySGT.]

That would also explain in part the need for additional feed with the low quality foraging available that climate too.

Feed lots are a staple in wet or dry climates.... so I take it that the feed lot.... the last effort to fatten up livestock before slaughter is why corn is prevalent for animals that graze for most of their fodder.

[kalos72]

I completely acknowledge the "gaps" are in the rules not you two and the way you are trying to play those rules out. I LOVE what your doing and was super excited to see it when the new rules came out.

But to your point, the data they use seems to be very outdated or they just tried to simplify it too much. Plus, they used some really poor practices when coming up with their numbers I think.

Have you guys figured out a number of people working a piece of land versus the number of people that land feeds or anything?

In the T2K forums there have been numbers like you can feed 3-5 people per acre I think...

[mmartin798]

I completely acknowledge the "gaps" are in the rules not you two and the way you are trying to play those rules out. I LOVE what your doing and was super excited to see it when the new rules came out.

But to your point, the data they use seems to be very outdated or they just tried to simplify it too much. Plus, they used some really poor practices when coming up with their numbers I think.

Have you guys figured out a number of people working a piece of land versus the number of people that land feeds or anything?

In the T2K forums there have been numbers like you can feed 3-5 people per acre I think...

Those kind of numbers can be directly read from the table at the bottom p237. The Yield column has 2 numbers separated by a slash. The right hand number is the number of people per hectare that can be fed. It varies greatly by tech level from just a little more than 1 to just over 7 people per hectare. In the Time her Hectare column, there are again 2 numbers. The number in parenthesis is the number of hectares a single worker can manage in a year.

In my workup of Sommerset I did not reference those numbers because it is just easier with an arbitrary population to work from the actual time and yield numbers.

[Giorgio]

I asked Chris Garland through the MP facebook page if an economics tutorial could be made and posted to Youtube. He wrote back that he will speak with the author of that section.

Could everyone else like or comment on that so it shows some interest from the fan base?

ArmySGT;

TMP4E economic section is very confusing to me, especial on how to apply it to existing communities, and how to upgrade them.

I will make a separate post about this.

[ArmySGT.]

ArmySGT;

TMP4E economic section is very confusing to me, especial on how to apply it to existing communities, and how to upgrade them.

I will make a separate post about this.

Don't bother. The author of that section has replied to this thread. Whole charts and sections are missing. The economics section is broken and unusable.

[.45cultist]

Don't bother. The author of that section has replied to this thread. Whole charts and sections are missing. The economics section is broken and unusable.

Is there any way the author could rebuild and post the missing material?

[nuke11]

Is there any way the author could rebuild and post the missing material?

Robert hasn't been on this site for over 2 years, haven't see a post on the mailing lists for a long time now.

Anything that needs to be updated or corrected, we will have to do that ourselves for the time being.

[mmartin798]

ArmySGT;

TMP4E economic section is very confusing to me, especial on how to apply it to existing communities, and how to upgrade them.

I will make a separate post about this.

I personally spent a great deal of time working through the process for one town and the best I can say for the rule as they stand are that they may give you an idea of the scale needed to support a given population engaged in a specific set of tasks. But they are woefully recursive and the end result is ultimately incomplete.

As far as what it takes to advance tech levels, there is even less information, but you could use the construction hours for the next higher tech and add some factor of time to cover the research. What this factor might be is no where to be seen and is something that you, again, get to make an educated guess about.

[.45cultist]

I personally spent a great deal of time working through the process for one town and the best I can say for the rule as they stand are that they may give you an idea of the scale needed to support a given population engaged in a specific set of tasks. But they are woefully recursive and the end result is ultimately incomplete.

As far as what it takes to advance tech levels, there is even less information, but you could use the construction hours for the next higher tech and add some factor of time to cover the research. What this factor might be is no where to be seen and is something that you, again, get to make an educated guess about.

A table with modifiers and a possible bonus if a device or two is available to study/ disassemble.

[mmartin798]

That would definitely help, but it won't take that much time off. Consider something simple. A town with an excellent blacksmith gets detailed blueprints to a steam engine. It will take some trial and error to machine the piston and cylinder. They do not have the practiced skill set to pull it off efficiently. In fact, their first attempt may be a much more manual and slower process, or time will be consumed prototyping and building some simple machines to make those parts.


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[ArmySGT.]

another thing that the Economics section could take into consideration is infant mortality, life expectancy, illness.

Tech levels H - D out to have difficulty raising children to adults, adults should have lower median ages (18 century apprentices were 12 years old, and Journeymen at 16). Child birth should be damn near fatal. With a good chance a village has suffered a viral outbreak of some sort taking a big chunk of the population to the grave.