Knifes

[kcdusk]

Times have changed, times are tougher than ever before. Ammo is short. Soooooo ....

How often do knife fights happen in your T2K game?

Do you have any home-brew knife fighting rules?

Knife damage strikes me as mainly being nics and cuts, with a chance of real damage (more than a bullet).

[Targan]

Using a combat system that is originally a melee system has made melee combat fun in my campaigns but admittedly it's rare in T2K. I've seen PCs use various knives, a Chinese sword, a hatchet, an entrenching tool and on one occasion a fireman's axe. Brutal stuff.

[headquarters]

have melee rules on our site ( house rules)

its a mix of T2k v.2 and other rules I guess.

Instead of your 1 attack you get a number derived from skill and what weapon you are using.

I.e a knife has many more rapid attacks than a footmans pike. Pike goes first though - due to range.

Melee is fairly common I guess - but it is rarely a melee only. Guns go off left and right all the way.

[Olefin]

One of our guys in my college campaign had his character carry a Bowie knife and a throwing axe (the guy playing him was an American Indian himself) - which he used several times during our time in Poland, Germany and back in the States. They were great down and dirty weapons in close range fights, of which we had several.

[pmulcahy11b]

I am right now doing up stats for knives. They're not melee rules, but will differentiate knives.

[.45cultist]

Looking in my collection for ideas. I possess an M3,various MK2's, M7, Gerber MK1,2,3, Marine M10, SEAL knife, Aircrew knives, a Mk1 navy knife from my grandpa. All models have been used by GIs some where. A couple of Ghurka kukris and a Woodsman pal(there was a fighting manual in WWII). Chinese replica M1, M1905 as well. I'm excited to see what Paul comes up with!

[Brother in Arms]

45cultist

Sounds like we have similiar knife collections. I currently have MKII navy fighting knife, Woodsmans pal, Stag handled Soligen German Bowie knife and I have owned 1917 trench knife and Gerber fighting knife. Also 18th century scalpers, Dags.

I have put them all down now that I own a Phillipino Barong made by J.W. Bensinger of Marshfield vermont.

Best large working/fighting knife I have ever owned.

The other two knives that are my constant companions are the MORA knife of sweden and the South African Okapi folder known as a Ratchet to Jamaicans these are my 3 favorite knives.

The D.H. Russel Grohman is also on the list of my favorite field and bush craft knives.

here is a link the woodsman pal fighting manual.

http://www.oocities.org/athens/acropolis/4933/woodsmanspal.html

BIA

[.45cultist]

I managed to get a KABAR KBD-1 recently, yet another in game knife. If only I could afford a Randall.... A SOG copy would be the closest I could get. But I do have an Eickhorn KCB-70 bayonet.

[kcdusk]

Thoughts on a Tom Brown Tracker #1 in real life? I need me a camping knife.

[Brother in Arms]

KCdust

Most of my knives aren't that modern. I kind of go for simple as possible.

here is a pic of my Barong and it should take you to J.W. Bensingers page with pics of many of his unique knives

https://www.facebook.com/208207042383/photos/pb.208207042383.-2207520000.1421699242./10152057428282384/?type=3&theater



BIA

[rcaf_777]

Found this in a search, think you might see weapons like this in the game

[Brother in Arms]

I was just having a conversation about swords with a friend. Particularly about how hard it would be to fight off someone if the had one and you were unarmed....this pretty much explains it

http://25.media.tumblr.com/dbd49d52770c70bd2e25d9bb80091aa8/tumblr_mfk2rkulCc1rwe5u6o1_500.jpg

BIA

[.45cultist]

It's best to take a pistol or shotgun to a swordfight.

[unkated]

Of the RPGs I have played over the years (decades), for armed melee fights, I like Runequest (2/3)'s system. It appealed to a crew of us because it came closest to matching our experiences in the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism), where we used (padded) swords, axes, pole arms, shields.

The key points are:

a number of factors affected the order that things occurred:

- SIZ of fighter (their reach)
- DEX (AGL) of fighter (their speed)
- size (length) of weapon (longer ones hit first)

missile weapons depended on only on being ready and DEX.

Attacks could happen at the same time.


A character had three actions in a given round:
Dodge
Action with weapon (attack or parry)
Action with shield (or second weapon) (attack or parry/block)

Attack is user's skill
Defender can try to dodge or block

Damage went to a specific area of the body (l/r arm, l/r leg, abdomen, chest, head).

Melee combat leaned toward targeting extremities - they stick out; missile fire leaned toward the chest (hits aimed at center of mass).

Armor on a location detracted from damage done. For example, I whack you in the head with a hammer for 4 pts, and you have 3 pt armor, 1 pt gets through.

This may sound involved, but Runequest seldom featured fire fights or sniper duels. And it differentiated a raft of melee weapons from small knives to two handed battle-axes

With a little headscratching, this could be grafted/adjusted into a T2K combat round.

But then again, note that a 6-7-in knife (Sykes Fairbairn, marine combat, or whatever) is a 6-7-in knife is a 6-7-in knife when compared to a 30-in broadsword. Or a shotgun.

Uncle Ted

[pmulcahy11b]

One thing games like AD&D, Runequest, and the Fantasy Trip bring home is the danger of firing or throwing missiles into a melee. (In short, you have a good chance of hitting your own people.) This is borne out by SCA experience.

Melee is few and far between in T2xx Vx, but shouldn't the same apply? If you fire your Tommy Gun into a meleeing crowd (and you're not Chocolate Mousse), Shouldn't you end up shooting everyone, friend or foe?

[Targan]

I loved Runequest, played and GM'd it for many years, before the-system-that-shall-not-be-named became my primary love.

[unkated]

One thing games like AD&D, Runequest, and the Fantasy Trip bring home is the danger of firing or throwing missiles into a melee. (In short, you have a good chance of hitting your own people.) This is borne out by SCA experience.

Melee is few and far between in T2xx Vx, but shouldn't the same apply? If you fire your Tommy Gun into a meleeing crowd (and you're not Chocolate Mousse), Shouldn't you end up shooting everyone, friend or foe?

Absolutely. That's what the danger space rules are for. :D

Somebody shoots int that space puts everyone in danger.

Given a swirling melee of weaponry or rolling grappling duel, this is the scene in the movies where the buddy looks anxious and says "I can't get a clear shot" while the hero and the villain batter each other.

I find fragging your own teammates does not lend itself to good unit cohesion.

Uncle Ted

[stormlion1]

A good Kabar or Bayonet should be part of everyones kit. And they are, but I honestly can't remember when they were even used in a game.

[swaghauler]

Great minds think alike. I went to the Rune Quest rules too (with a little Fantasy Hero thrown in). I needed a system that allowed unfettered switching between HTH, Melee and fire combat. In my system, the characters generate a melee damage just like HTH damage. These numbers actually represent the number of DICE of damage you can do in an attack. When you launch a melee or HTH attack, you do ONE DIE (1D10 in my game) of damage for EACH point you roll under your skill. Your opponent can parry by rolling his skill. For each point he rolls under his skill he NEGATES ONE of your damage dice. The maximum HTH damage you can do is your HTH Damage Rating. The maximum Melee damage you can do is EITHER your Melee Damage Rating OR the MAX Damage Rating of the weapon you are using (whichever is LESS). The maximum damage you can parry is ALSO your HTH Damage. The Maximum Melee Damage you can parry is EITHER your Melee Damage or the weapon's MAX Damage. Parrying Melee weapons with HTH is ONE LEVEL MORE DIFFICULT and parried damage is inflicted on the parrying limb. The Defending player may reduce EVERY Parried Damage Die by the number points he rolled under his skill. Any damage dice reduced to 0 have no effect on the player who parried.

Melee weapons are given a MAX Damage. A Ballistic Pen (hardened for combat) or very small knife has a MAX Dam of 1. A bayonet has a MAX Dam of 4. a fireman's Axe has a MAX Dam of 8. You can do as much damage with a knife as you can with a rifle if your skilled enough.

I also use STUN DAMAGE. My characters' have a Stun Capacity equal to their CON + WILL (I added this stat) X 10. This regenerates at WILL + CON per minute. It is broken down like Wounds into levels (and behaves like fatigue). When STUN hits 0, your knocked out until it reaches a positive level. All HTH damage dice are STUN damage. Every 10 points of HTH STUN damage generates 1 point of wound damage. Head STUN Damage is doubled. Limb STUN is halved. All weapons do STUN too. Firearms, Spears, & knives do X1, Swords & axes are X2, Batons & clubs are X3, Explosives do X4 stun damage. This Damage system is good for teaching the players about the lethality of Twilight WITHOUT killing them. One good bar room brawl should do it.

I also use Knockdown. I figure a character's Knockdown by AVERAGING STR, AGL , & STA (Stature, which I carried over from V1). This is the number of Damage DICE (of any kind) it takes to knock you off your feet.

[swaghauler]

The system I outlined above is a bit more complex but I have given you the basic structure. I wanted to replicate the major damage a professional fighter could do while still allowing for the lower damages you would see in a common street brawl. Some people might question the wider range of damage on the weapons in my system; But this mirrors reality. There are 17 "vital points" on the human body that can cause death or incapacitation with just a 4" knife. A true "pro" will know where these points are.

Skill is tied to damage in order to simulate the advantage of knowledge (and position when attacking from surprise) on damage. It also represents a defender's ability to mitigate or avoid damage through the defender's own skill.

A knife fight is SELDOM a bunch of slashes or cuts. It is two (or more) individuals jockeying for position in order to deliver a good "debilitating thrust." Any slashes are done at strategic joints (wrist, elbow, & knee) or as distractions (unless poison is involved).

Remember. Edged weapons are meant to be FELT and not SEEN....

[jester]

I would add for knife fighting:

Initiative is a big thing.

In many games it is that one character who uses his stealth to eliminate the sentry with a knife. So, the stealth comes into play as well as the armed melee skill.

Next, initiative, a battlehardened trooper who fought the Battle of Warsaw verses a conscript on his first action. Who is going to win....or even stay around?

The idea of being impaled on cold steel is right up there with being eaten alive. A note, in so many "Bayonet charges" those killed by bayonets is pretty small. So, a GM should really take that into consideration.

Pictures this, "Ivan and Victor" are on sentry duty. Two weeks ago they were in a refugee collective. The "recruiters" came by and they both join up at the ripe old age of 16. They are tossed dirty old uniforms that are two sizes too big and worn out boots. They've been emptying the chamber pot of the Colonel and washing dishes in the camp kitchen. (hopefully not with the same water) And last week, they were issued an old worn out SKS each and 5 rounds. Today they are on the guard roster. They think they are now real soldiers.

Sgt Smith, who has about 13 years service is trying to get back to US lines after the 5ths demise.

He has waited all day in the woods, watching and waiting. But Ivan and Victor are now blocking his way. He waits until midnight, slowly low crawls and waits an arms reach from the very green soldiers.

Then, he pounces!

He is on Victor before he even knows what has happened. Sliding atop him with his M7 sliding between the youth colar bone and neck. He is dead before he hits the ground. Ivan is an arms reach away. He is too stunned to react. And Sgt Smith in one swift move slashes Ivans throat, the second youth manages a gurgle but chokes on his own blood as he falls dying.

If its in light, change the scenario where Sgt Smith looks at Ivan and simply pushes past him. (Like the scene in Saving Private Ryan)

Or, Sgt Smith moves in with blade bare, the youths eyes go wide. They both drop their weapons and run/drop to their knees praying for mercy.

Another factor:

Type of blade, sorry but an AF survival knife verses a Kuhkri or a sykes fairbian are two different styles of fighting and cause different damage and levels of damage.

[swaghauler]

I would add for knife fighting:

Initiative is a big thing.

In many games it is that one character who uses his stealth to eliminate the sentry with a knife. So, the stealth comes into play as well as the armed melee skill.

Next, initiative, a battlehardened trooper who fought the Battle of Warsaw verses a conscript on his first action. Who is going to win....or even stay around?

Another factor:

Type of blade, sorry but an AF survival knife verses a Kuhkri or a sykes fairbian are two different styles of fighting and cause different damage and levels of damage.

I agree with you 100% on initiative. I use a system similar to the "tick" system in 2013. My original system (under revision since 2013 came out) used 12 initiative points each representing about 1/2 a second (my rounds are 6 seconds each so 10 rounds equal 1 minute). I'd have the players roll 1D6 and add that to their Initiative to generate a number from 2 to 12. Since each point was a precise time (1/2 a second), I was able to give different time costs to different weapons. For instance, knives are faster than clubs and axes.

I also have far more detailed stats for my weapons. Some weapons are easier to parry with. Some weapons have a longer reach and therefore can attack "at range." My weapons ranges are Short (1m), Medium (2m), Long (3m), and Extreme (4m). Different weapons (like spears) can attack at different ranges. The Kuhkri is a chopping implement and the Sykes-Fairbane is a Stabbing weapon. In my game the SF has a max damage of 4 DICE (for its 8" blade length) with a X 1 STUN, and the Kuhkri can max at 6 DICE in damage (better than 7.62mmN) with X 2 STUN and is easier to parry with. The Kuhkri is different because it is primarily a Chopping tool like a Machette, but with a heavier blade.

Many "battle hardened" vets have fallen to new conscripts. That would come down to Coolness. In my game, your vet would get a free "aimed" attack AND double his chance to hit (thanks to his Stealth). If your vet had a Melee skill of 5 or more (I prefer the D10 system) he would have a roll of 9 or less to hit with a SF/bayonet. If he rolled a 5, he would be doing the knife's MAX damage of 4D10 (up to 40 points with 20 on average). In my system the average player has a MAXIMUM of 25 hp in his head. This would be bad news for sentry one. When you look at my damages, think DICE (1D10) not POINTS. Most of my melee weapons will do MORE damage than firearms in a SKILLED USER'S hands. Also remember that my hit capacities are reduced. this means you might have to "mod" the system I use for your game.