Fighting Light: what starting T2K gear?

[Brother in Arms]

I have been thinking a lot of running a campaign for T2K soon and the question of equipment keeps coming up in my mind. It seems that many T2K games revolve around vehicles,fuel. And not much on personal gear. Also since vehicles allow you to carry more and more equipment things start to get out of control.

Lately I have been looking at pics of Sandinstas guerrillas. They usually have a Rifle, A magazine pouch, a small ruck sack, and maybe a belt, hat or machete. I have also been watching episodes of the old SURVIVOR tv. series and the characters are always very lightly equipped with practically no "gear" to speak of.

Then the other day I was reading the "unit encounters thread" and Ole Fin really summed it up when he wrote:

"Played a game once where all we had was our uniforms, small arms, two clips of ammo and one grenade each and water and food for two days to start - we spent a lot of time initially doing searches of places like that described above just to get equipped enough to survive, let alone try to get home."

basically just enough gear for a short patrol (a 3 day pack is typical today) but I like the light weight lack of gear the Rhodesian and later South Africans carried during "COIN" warfare ops.


What do you think good grab and go start up gear would be for NATO or Warsaw troops? Also I have been looking at a lot of photos the fantasy post apocalyptic video game STALKER. And Minimalism really seems to suit the looks of Soviet gear.

BIA

[B.T.]

Brother in Arms, you are definately right: Keeping track of the personal equipment of players can be a kind of nightmare. My players hate me for some of the questions, I occasionally throw in.

IIRC during my time in the Bundeswehr we had to have certain things in the pockets of our trousers. Certainly this is true for many military units. Off course, some of these regulations would not be followed in the twilight war!

I allways look at the personal equipment as severals "levels", depending on readyness/tasks. The driver of an APC will not have all his belongings with him when driving the track. When the group leaves the APC, the driver will grab his rifle and pack. If the group is in a safe house (friendly NPCs guarding the vehicles of the group) the driver might as well take his sleeping bag with him. But will he take with him his winter gear or the E-tool? I very much doubt ist.

And another aspect to keep in mind: How detailled are you playing? There are so many little bits that nearly everyone carries with him (purse with photos of beloved ones, as an example), but these items usually are not that important for gameplay.

To come to the point: Most of the very important smaller items will be in the pockets of trousers or blouses/jackets. Things like personal 1st aid kit, earplugs, pocket knife, pen and paper, small arms cleaning kit, cravat and things like these. We can call this "Level 0". Not shure about this: Maybe one could add a pistol, which is worn on the trouser belt or in one of the pockets.

"Level 1" would be the basic protective stuff (plus Level 0): Helmet, protective mask and carrier, kevlar vest or flak jacket.

Level 2 would be the "usual" basic kit. This depends a lot on the role or task the wearer normally has to fullfill. A medics LBE would be different from a MGunners layout. There are so many different things to keep in mind, that every player should make his own decisions.
A normal rifleman's basic "Level 2" kit could be: ALICE belt and suspenders, 2 mag pouches, canteen, bayonet, maybe a second personal 1st aid kit in a compass pouch, and gloves – attached with a snap hook.

Level 3 would be the normal pack: poncho, toilet articles, food for 1 or 2 days, socks, all kind of things, the player would usually carry on a patrol.

Questions: Does really everybody carry an E-tool or sleeping bag with him? What about shelter half and a second pair of boots? Reserve uniform, parka?

Level 4 would be the rest of the belongings in a kitbag or some similar pouch.

Personal weapons or "specials" (I think of spare ammo for MGs, the light tripod for the group's MG, the LAW, whatever …) could be handled irrespective of the "Levels". And, off course, depending on situation these kit-bits could be adapted. As example: PC carries with him his Level 3 equipment plus sleeping bag.

Whenever a group of PCs is forced to leave a shelter or the vehicle, the GM could inform the players, that they can carry with them "Level 3 equipment plus 2 items" (Maybe a jerry can with water and the rifle, as you, the GM, dictate!) or whatever you think appropriate, depending on your GM knowledge and the situation.

I use these "Levels" in my group and up to now it works fine.

Hope this helps and gives some suggestions, that you can work with!

[.45cultist]

That's one of the RW problems, soldiers are up armored and loaded down like their vehicles. A campaign based on a base defense or a grounded air crew might trim the gear down.

[Olefin]

Or if you really wanted to trim things down have the start of the campaign be that they are the crew and soldiers bailing out of a Bradley or M1 or vehicle of your choice that got them clear but is now too badly broken down to keep going

meaning they have what they are carrying personally plus whatever was in the vehicle when it went into combat at Kalisz and thats it - which depending on the vehicle could be pretty good for the players or pretty bad - a Bradley or M88 could have a lot of stuff - but if its limited to what you can carry then do you really need all those M231's?

[cavtroop]

I love this aspect of roleplaying, the equipment shuffle. What I used to do is to have a page for just my equipment - I'd have the page broken down into sections - one for each 'containter' on my PCs body - say, one section for 'backpack', one for 'LBE', one for 'kit bag in vehicle' etc. Then i'd list what equipment I have stored where. That way, if I were to leave my vehicle to continue on foot, I'd just have to say that I'm grabbing my backpack and my LBE (which is obviously usually worn) and blammo, I have a list of everything on me. As a player, it was up to me to keep track of what was where, and if the list was wrong, oops, i forgot to move something from my kit bag to my backpack, oh well!

[.45cultist]

Brother in Arms, you are definately right: Keeping track of the personal equipment of players can be a kind of nightmare. My players hate me for some of the questions, I occasionally throw in.

IIRC during my time in the Bundeswehr we had to have certain things in the pockets of our trousers. Certainly this is true for many military units. Off course, some of these regulations would not be followed in the twilight war!

I allways look at the personal equipment as severals "levels", depending on readyness/tasks. The driver of an APC will not have all his belongings with him when driving the track. When the group leaves the APC, the driver will grab his rifle and pack. If the group is in a safe house (friendly NPCs guarding the vehicles of the group) the driver might as well take his sleeping bag with him. But will he take with him his winter gear or the E-tool? I very much doubt ist.

And another aspect to keep in mind: How detailled are you playing? There are so many little bits that nearly everyone carries with him (purse with photos of beloved ones, as an example), but these items usually are not that important for gameplay.

To come to the point: Most of the very important smaller items will be in the pockets of trousers or blouses/jackets. Things like personal 1st aid kit, earplugs, pocket knife, pen and paper, small arms cleaning kit, cravat and things like these. We can call this "Level 0". Not shure about this: Maybe one could add a pistol, which is worn on the trouser belt or in one of the pockets.

"Level 1" would be the basic protective stuff (plus Level 0): Helmet, protective mask and carrier, kevlar vest or flak jacket.

Level 2 would be the "usual" basic kit. This depends a lot on the role or task the wearer normally has to fullfill. A medics LBE would be different from a MGunners layout. There are so many different things to keep in mind, that every player should make his own decisions.
A normal rifleman's basic "Level 2" kit could be: ALICE belt and suspenders, 2 mag pouches, canteen, bayonet, maybe a second personal 1st aid kit in a compass pouch, and gloves – attached with a snap hook.

Level 3 would be the normal pack: poncho, toilet articles, food for 1 or 2 days, socks, all kind of things, the player would usually carry on a patrol.

Questions: Does really everybody carry an E-tool or sleeping bag with him? What about shelter half and a second pair of boots? Reserve uniform, parka?

Level 4 would be the rest of the belongings in a kitbag or some similar pouch.

Personal weapons or "specials" (I think of spare ammo for MGs, the light tripod for the group's MG, the LAW, whatever …) could be handled irrespective of the "Levels". And, off course, depending on situation these kit-bits could be adapted. As example: PC carries with him his Level 3 equipment plus sleeping bag.

Whenever a group of PCs is forced to leave a shelter or the vehicle, the GM could inform the players, that they can carry with them "Level 3 equipment plus 2 items" (Maybe a jerry can with water and the rifle, as you, the GM, dictate!) or whatever you think appropriate, depending on your GM knowledge and the situation.

I use these "Levels" in my group and up to now it works fine.

Hope this helps and gives some suggestions, that you can work with!

When I was training on Guam,the poncho and liner really were great. I now have a collection, one for the vehicle,one for the couch, several in the camping stuff.

[unkated]

I'm with Cavtroop. I generally go through the same exercise - what is packed where, what is worn or generally carried, and switching items as needed.

I check the load on me (and in the latest case on my riding horse and pack horses) and various containers. I'll mark stuff off as extended or add new stuff found in an appropriate container.

If I need to leave the burning vehicle after grabbing the rifle, then I know all the stuff listed as 'carried' or 'LBE' is available - and that all the stuff marked backpack is likely lost. Equally, I know that if I say 'I grab the backpack, I have a handy list of what I have (and about how much it weighs).

Uncle Ted

[Brother in Arms]

This is great info guys!


But I think my original point was more about people carrying to much. I think the key to surviving in T2K enviroment would be mobility as well as gear. But I think often people get so bogged down with gear (too prepared) that they are somewhat comfortable.

I also think the a difference is most of my twilight games take place in the U.S. so somewhat out of the military context, or when they are its after most of the good stuff is gone to Europe. I have played a few games when I was in Europe with other soldiers but they usually didn't involve having tons and tons of gear but I was very cautious of how and were it was carried.

I think I have alwyas been really interested in LRRPS, Rangers, Militia, Minute men, and Light companies that makes me think about this stuff.



One of my favorite games that my character was a Mechanic and had to leave the fire base he was in because it was getting the crap knocked out of it by artillery. So we escaped in an armored. I didn't even have a rifle. We ended cut off so bad that we were riding around in a captured WW2 Russian Scout car BA-64 I think. After some scary engadements with Warsaw troops (Hungarian and East German) I eventually found myself armed with a Hungarian AMD-65 that I had to remove the flash hider from so it could fit in the armored car (and a 75 round drum magazine ) I also ended up with mostly captured gear like a east german jacket with fur collar. I also managed to find some sunglasses with green lenses but I think they were civilian.

[.45cultist]

Using a fusion of "Bangkok, Cesspool of the Orient" and T2013, with a later timeline for a new campaign so I can test the light fighter. T2K2 V2.2 rules. Using the lists compiled here,I'll try to make a couple of lists. Looking at Thai gun laws, pistols, pump shotguns and bolt, lever rifles to start out the early year with fun stuff later.

[Olefin]

It really depends too on how you start out - if you have enough money to get vehicles you can carry a lot of gear depending on a vehicle - a Bradley can fit a lot of gear in it if you dont have to carry everyone in it for instance - versus starting with no vehicles or a small one

its one thing to sling three crates of ammo in the back of a truck or a Bradley - its another if your starting vehicle is a motorcycle or horse

and I see where you are coming from with this thread

Has everyone either played or read the Slavers modules for AD&D - i.e. the last one where the players basically start out with just loincloths and not much more? Or played the Caribbean module as intended where you are prisoners fished out of the drink?

Is that what you had in mind for this thread - i.e. starting out basically wtih almost nothing Brother In Arms?

[.45cultist]

Thai village volunteers get mossbergs, my premise was starting out minimal and earning stuff the hard way. Pickups full of citizens buying time for mobilization.

[unkated]

I did start a game (Nov 2001, BAOR troops in Germany after the Americans had left) recently where the GM started us out with "whatever you want, limited to what your character can carry on foot," with munitions limits - 3 mags & some loose rounds? (there ain't much to go around). Anything too exotic (read as needs batteries) was not available or retained by battalion.

As we were serving troops and going on a recce trip, anything too valuable or powerful was retained by the battalion. Kept the belongings from getting out of hand.

Uncle Ted

[Brother in Arms]

Olefin

I wasn't thinking of going quite that hard....just limit what characters to what they can reasonably carry might logically have... But i don't mean what a soldiers is actually carry as what they are supposed to be issued. Like soldiers are supposed to carry MG belts but these might not be available. Or a disassembled mortar but this might not also be available. I mean who is going to have there complete kit when the shit goes down? other than an escape from Kaliz scenario. What if the war has gone on for a bit? Or troops Mobilized later in the war? Or better yet soldiers stuck somewhere else that isn't Poland? What if your in Italy or somewhere else. I just think people have to much stuff to start with...when i was a DM for dungeons and dragons I was pretty hard on PC's starting gear guess I want to be the same way here.
BIA

[bobcat]

all things considered many troops of the T2K era would have enough of their survival load on their webbing that even if they were seperated from their ruck they would still have a poncho with liner and a few days of rations on them. perhaps one could arrange for something like this with a LBE system like in Jagged alliance where each set of LBE can hold only so much. and thats the only LBE they will be issued at start.

such as "you have a pistol belt with 2 canteen pouches, a first aid pouch, 2 ammo pouches, and a buttpack". this would be the standard LBE for most US soldiers during the twilight war and can be adjusted to show their nationality/ability to scrounge. Pauls site has the weight for most LBE items.
of course the ammo pouches can carry small items as well just like the canteen pouches can carry ammo.

[Brother in Arms]

Bobcat

That is more along the lines of what i am talking about!!!

But what I don't get is why U.S.troops in the 80's carry so little useful gear for fighting on there immediate person?

here is a by the book for the LC2 LBE:

1 pistol belt
1 set Y suspenders
2 mag pouches= 6-30 M16 magazines (and 4 grenades potentially)
1 canteens= 1 quart water
1 collapsing entrenchment tool
1 Field dressing/ compass pouch


The load out you described gives 1 more quart of water, and a full sized first aid kit :) The butt pouch gives you the ability to carry a small amount of survival items. A couple MRE can fit in the butt pouch, and the poncho and poncho liner can be attached to the bottom of the butt pack.

At least your load out give the character, ammo, food,water, actual first aid and,warmth. All in the basic hierarchy of needs. But not tons of stuff like you can stow in a huge ruck.

other common items I have seen in use, M16 bayonet, angled Flash light, Lensatic compass (maybe Gas mask and gas mask bag)

this would give the soldier an addition weapon/tool, light, Navigation (maybe protection from chemical agents)


Here is what I used carry on my LBE:
(this is just for kicks I was never in military)

1 pistol belt
1 set H suspenders
4 Magazine pouches = 8-20 rnd M14 mags (or 12-30 rnd M16 mags)
1 butt pouch (with 2-1 quart canteens attached to sides)
1 pistol magazine pouch with leather man

But I never liked carrying the canteens on the butt pouch because the butt pouch had to be full or it didn't work. I used to carry way to much "Snivel gear" in the butt pouch

Now I mostly carry a chest pouch of some kind (4-6 mags) and a small ruck sack with other items. I don't really carry much on or around my waist.

BIA

[.45cultist]

Bobcat

That is more along the lines of what i am talking about!!!

But what I don't get is why U.S.troops in the 80's carry so little useful gear for fighting on there immediate person?

here is a by the book for the LC2 LBE:

1 pistol belt
1 set Y suspenders
2 mag pouches= 6-30 M16 magazines (and 4 grenades potentially)
1 canteens= 1 quart water
1 collapsing entrenchment tool
1 Field dressing/ compass pouch


The load out you described gives 1 more quart of water, and a full sized first aid kit :) The butt pouch gives you the ability to carry a small amount of survival items. A couple MRE can fit in the butt pouch, and the poncho and poncho liner can be attached to the bottom of the butt pack.

At least your load out give the character, ammo, food,water, actual first aid and,warmth. All in the basic hierarchy of needs. But not tons of stuff like you can stow in a huge ruck.

other common items I have seen in use, M16 bayonet, angled Flash light, Lensatic compass (maybe Gas mask and gas mask bag)

this would give the soldier an addition weapon/tool, light, Navigation (maybe protection from chemical agents)


Here is what I used carry on my LBE:
(this is just for kicks I was never in military)

1 pistol belt
1 set H suspenders
4 Magazine pouches = 8-20 rnd M14 mags (or 12-30 rnd M16 mags)
1 butt pouch (with 2-1 quart canteens attached to sides)
1 pistol magazine pouch with leatherman

But I never liked carrying the canteens on the butt pouch because the butt pouch had to be full or it didn't work. I used to carry way to much "Snivel gear" in the butt pouch

Now I mostly carry a chest pouch of some kind (4-6 mags) and a small ruck sack with other items. I don't really carry much on or around my waist.

BIA

When I went to guam, I was issued an E-tool that the EPA said we couldn't use. Another canteen went in it's place since it was the dry season(110F). I didn't receive a buttpack.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There's a saying we were taught during our IET (Initial Employment Training) - I don't know if they still call it IET in the Aussie Army these days, but it's the first lot of formal training you get upon being assigned to a unit after you've passed recruit training.
The saying gives some idea of how equipment is organized, keeping in mind that the only "essential" items were typically considered to be ammo, ammo, more ammo and water (and maybe some spare ammo :p ).
Anyway, it goes as follows: -

Survive out of your pockets.
Fight out of your webbing.
Live out of your pack.

Survival gear - packs and web gear can be lost or damaged so items needed for survival should be carried in your clothing.
Combat/fighting equipment - webbing, combat vests and the like have only one reason to exist, to carry all the gear you need to fight. But it also helps to keep items like raincoats, gloves, poncho etc. etc. (food's already been mentioned) on your web gear just in case you're separated from your pack for a while.
Non-essential items, e.g. sleeping bags, spare boots, spare radio batteries, hammocks, kitchen sink, what-ever - stuff that won't stop you from fighting or surviving if it gets lost, is kept in the pack.

Edit: and in regards to the ammo thing, I really wasn't joking! I'm going from memory here but I distinctly remember this one thing, in conventional operations we could be issued up to eleven 20-rd mags for our L1A1 SLRs. Generally we carried seven, three in each mag pouch and one on the weapon but for longer engagements the other four would generally be stashed in the bumpack (butt pack for you non-Australians!) although some of us had extra mag pouches we'd use instead.

[Brother in Arms]

Thanks for information gents!

.45 cultist
so you carried the basic loadout I posted but with a spare canteen, not butt pack?

here is a great pic of the gear we are talking about with the typical extras the might appear for a US soldier.

http://i56.tinypic.com/6gbgxl.jpg

and thanks for the info Stainless I can totally dig the Aussie mindset ammo, ammo and more ammo.

I used to carry an old BAR pouch for M14 magazines and it could carry 12.
BIA

[.45cultist]

Thanks for information gents!

.45 cultist
so you carried the basic loadout I posted but with a spare canteen, not butt pack?

here is a great pic of the gear we are talking about with the typical extras the might appear for a US soldier.

http://i56.tinypic.com/6gbgxl.jpg

and thanks for the info Stainless I can totally dig the Aussie mindset ammo, ammo and more ammo.

I used to carry an old BAR pouch for M14 magazines and it could carry 12.
BIA
Right, I don't know if the Air Force even had them, Storm Lion would know more about the ground kit. Another item not issued to me was a bayonet. But this was in the 90's, for T2013, I don't know what MOLLE stuff is issued.

[bobcat]

granted i say first aid kit what i mean is 2 field dressings and some morphine in the pouch high on the suspenders with extra stuff shoved in my left cargo pocket. i failed to mention the knife because any soldier that doesn't have at least one dummy corded to their belt isn't likely to survive character creation.

that said the buttpack i had was never issued to me. it magically fell into my duffel bag when the kit fairy visited. that said with the H-suspenders you could easily place the butpack on the read risers for the suspenders and connect it on the two hooks in the back to make more room on the pistol belt for more ammo/water/saw pouch full of boom. :D of course why do people carry the E-tool on their fighting load? i was always told to mount it on the ruck with the 2qt canteen.

[Targan]

Edit: and in regards to the ammo thing, I really wasn't joking! I'm going from memory here but I distinctly remember this one thing, in conventional operations we could be issued up to eleven 20-rd mags for our L1A1 SLRs. Generally we carried seven, three in each mag pouch and one on the weapon but for longer engagements the other four would generally be stashed in the bumpack (butt pack for you non-Australians!) although some of us had extra mag pouches we'd use instead.

Much the same when I was in. When it comes to ammo, it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I think the lessons of Long Tan drove that point home real hard.

[.45cultist]

The IFAKS, old and new came from my friend's surplus store. The store and gun shows provided both clotting and plain field dressings. Some stay in my truck and more are carried when I shoot up the farm junk pile. This thread is helping me with more than a few ideas.

[NanbanJim]

For those without field experience, this can be pretty tough to figure out. They'll rely on the game mechanics, which sometimes don't give good enough guidance.

I really like the advice SSC and the boys down under gave:
"Survive out of your pockets.
Fight out of your webbing.
Live out of your pack."

B(L)T's Levels 0-4 could also come in quite handy.

What I'd end up doing is probably to come up with Level 0-4 weight limits and then treat it like I do starting gear in T2k13. That is to say that, like Contacts, the player fleshes it out what those kilograms of gear are as needed. What few times I've tried it, it's really worked well to make survival gaming fun for the unfamiliar instead of an adventure in confusion and frustration.

It should adapt reasonably well to various kit levels, I'd think.

[Tegyrius]

If I were redoing the Reflex System encumbrance rules, I might go for an abstracted "encumbrance point" system rather than running on pure weight allocation. Smaller numbers are less scary to new players.

- C.

[jester]

Yep, equipment is pretty much similar:

Duecegear (harness and belt)
2 30 round M16 pouches w/ 6 mags
2 canteens, pouches and 1 canteen cup on the belt either side of the asspack
ass pack with field jacket liner gloves, spare socks, batteries, spare ammo etc.
3rd canteen and pouch on asspack
e-tool and carrier on other side of ass pack.
Bayonet on belt
1st Aid kit on ass pack
Larger combat type knife on belt of harness, although later, we wore them on our trouser belts so we had something when we dropped out harnesses.
Smaller boot knife
2 SAW pouches with misc when not carrying ammo.

With the old Kevlar we'd snap out harnesses in and just dump them as a whole.

Gas masks were always worn and usualy helmets.

Pockets usualy held boonies, soft covers, crevats, wool watch caps, gloves and liners, camo compacts, 550 cord, minimag lights, pocket knives.

Ass packs always had a poncho in or strapped to them and often had the liner with them as well.

As for game purposes:

I have started the players as POWs once and allowed them to be creative with small items and then roll to see what got by.

The entire party had 1 2 shot derringer (they got real lucky) a small piece of det cord, a straight razor and a garrote and another knife to escape from a train with.

Other campaigns I had I simply limited the players telling them upfront, "What you can carry within reason."

Another campaign, some players had more than others.

Some PCs were orderly in their escape from Kalisz, others escaped with little more than what was on their backs. The pilot had simply his pistol and survival gear and whatever was under his flight suite.

Another escape scenario had the PCs being over run. (I was using the order of battle for the final hours of Kalisz) some PCs were at the motorpool resupplying their vehicle. Others were on a working party. Others were infantry who had been overrun and were forced to withdraw as BMPs came in behind them, so run or be cut off. All they had was what was on them. Others joined the convoy as it tried to race out of the doomed perimeter and the vehicles slowed, others had bailed out of their vehicles after they were destroyed and ran to catch a ride.

The point with few exceptions in that campaign, most of the players were running for their lives either being forced from their fighting postions, or had to bail out of their burning vehicles and run to the last few friendly vehicles heading down the road. In doing so, the thought of collecting your pack, bedroll and other goods in your hootch or salvage from your burning vehicle is a thought that doesn't even enter the mind.


In pockets, cravat,

[swaghauler]

Much the same when I was in. When it comes to ammo, it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I think the lessons of Long Tan drove that point home real hard.

This is true. In Africa I had 24 30 round mags and a dozen frag grenades stashed in my truck, just in case. You are NEVER carrying too much ammo unless your drowning or on fire....

[jester]

If you are humping it, you surely can carry to much ammo. No point in being spent when you make it to target because you were overloaded and to exhausted to be at the top of your game.

[swaghauler]

If you are humping it, you surely can carry to much ammo. No point in being spent when you make it to target because you were overloaded and to exhausted to be at the top of your game.

Very True. This was the reason that the US Army began to fully mechanize in the 90's. The idea was that you would ride into battle (bringing your equipment and heavy weapons with you), So carrying capacity was not an issue. Iraq proved this "concept" to be "flawed" (to a degree, anyway). The Russians found the exact same flaw in their TOE during the battle for Grozny against the Chechens. They lost so many T90's to point blank RPG-7 attacks; that they had to launch a "foot mobile" assault into the city. Resupply became problematic. That old adage is STILL true: "Ounces equal pounds; Pounds equal pain...."

[bobcat]

Very True. This was the reason that the US Army began to fully mechanize in the 90's. The idea was that you would ride into battle (bringing your equipment and heavy weapons with you), So carrying capacity was not an issue. Iraq proved this "concept" to be "flawed" (to a degree, anyway). The Russians found the exact same flaw in their TOE during the battle for Grozny against the Chechens. They lost so many T90's to point blank RPG-7 attacks; that they had to launch a "foot mobile" assault into the city. Resupply became problematic. That old adage is STILL true: "Ounces equal pounds; Pounds equal pain...."

likewise when packing gear another old adage applies. "one is none, two is one."

[swaghauler]

I have begun to use the Bulk system in addition to equipment weight to define what a character can reasonably carry. My goal was to "reign in" those players who want to carry a rocket launcher, an assault rifle, a couple of pistols and a dozen grenades all at once. I see the Bulk system as the fairest way to do this. This is what I have so far....

I changed the bulk system to a scale of 1 through 10 (to better match the game's mechanics). Each point of BULK equals to an overall Length of roughly 15 Centimeters/5.9 Inches in length. Each additional Bulk point ADDS 15cm/5.9" to length. So a rifle 60cm in length would have a bulk of 4. Each Bulk point may be "subdivided" into 10ths. In other words, it is possible to have an object that has a Bulk of 3.2. Determining an object's Bulk is as easy as dividing its length by 15cm/5.9".

I tied the character's Bulk Limit to the characteristic of Stature (which I carried over from V1). A person's physical size determines how much BULK in equipment he or she can carry (Load is in Kgs and is calculated normally). A character's Bulk Limits are as follows:

- A character can carry 1 X STATURE in Total Bulk on their person (in pockets etc). Each individual item MUST NOT exceed 25% of STATURE (ie. a 0.75 Bulk for a STA of 3).
- A character can carry 2 X STATURE in Total Bulk in their hands. A person with a STA of 4 would be limited to a weapon of Bulk 8 or lower (as determined above). A one handed weapon's Bulk must not exceed the character's STATURE.
- A character can haul 5 X STATURE in external body load (on LBE/Molle gear) without issue as long as no single item EXCEEDS their STA in Bulk rating (ie a STA 4 character can carry any item up to 4 Bulk and up to 20 Bulk in "stuff" strapped to their web gear).
- A character can haul up to 10 X STATURE in Total Bulk load (using a backpack or litter), BUT they may be affected by the bulk of what they are carrying. No singular object can exceed 2 X STA in Bulk as well.

My plan is to have "cargo devices" (LBE, backpacks, etc...) to cost a certain Bulk to carry, BUT provide a larger Bulk in storage. For example, LBE might take up 5 Bulk of external load but provide 10 or 15 Bulk of storage (AT THAT 5 Bulk in external load to the character). The size of this storage might range from 0.5 bulk up to 3 bulk per web pouch (limiting the objects that can be stored). Cargo pants would be another example. The side pockets of BDUs could carry 2 Bulk of stuff BUT nothing individually larger than 1 bulk in size.

I am considering these Bulk Totals to be exclusive. You can carry loads on your person, in your hands, and as external body load as long as you don't exceed a Total Bulk of 10 x STATURE or an individual Bulk of 2 X STATURE for all the loads combined (10 X Load Totals for backpacks could exceed this amount and as a result, cause the character issues).

I would appreciate any input or ideas anyone has. This rule is still in the "planning" stage.

[jester]

Very True. This was the reason that the US Army began to fully mechanize in the 90's. The idea was that you would ride into battle (bringing your equipment and heavy weapons with you), So carrying capacity was not an issue. Iraq proved this "concept" to be "flawed" (to a degree, anyway). The Russians found the exact same flaw in their TOE during the battle for Grozny against the Chechens. They lost so many T90's to point blank RPG-7 attacks; that they had to launch a "foot mobile" assault into the city. Resupply became problematic. That old adage is STILL true: "Ounces equal pounds; Pounds equal pain...."

I recall them quoting something along those lines in the series, "Korea, Fire and Ice." Where the quote goes something like this,

"The troops became road bound, its as if they've lost the use of their legs." Said by an American Colonel or General during the collapse early on in the War.

It seems the Army developed a similar mechanized doctrine during WWII....sure it was good for Europe, but I guess the lessons learned in the Pacific were lost. Sadly, we repeated it during the Cold War and such doctrine endured through today.

[.45cultist]

Finally starting to work up a couple of T2013 campaigns, one "normal", one zombies. The zombie one is easy, need a little more detail for the WWIII campaign.