OT - Complicated Ammunition Magazines

[kato13]

I have a side project that I have been working on using "Guns, Guns, Guns" to produce next generation weapons.

Of course when anyone looks at such weapons the M41A Pulse rifle (http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/%28Aliens%29_-_M41A_Pulse_Rifle) usually is something one might use as a touch stone.

I have been trying to do the math on how 99 10mmx24 (caseless) would fit in a mag and the pictures below seem to offer a possibility.

http://games.juhlin.com/files/mag1.jpeg
http://games.juhlin.com/files/mag2.jpeg

In order to make the "turn" in the "U" at the bottom, I am wondering if something more than a spring would be in use. Given the rounds are square I think a spring would not cut it.

I know the P90 mag (below) moves the ammo 90 degrees before firing.
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/smg/belgium/1287829369.jpg

And I was wondering if there were other real world examples if mechanical or electrical movement of rounds through a mag that I could use for inspiration.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You should take a look at the HK 5.56mm 150-rd linkless magazine. However my (albeit limited) search found there's not a lot of other info available.
There is a patent info page here for a HK large capacity linkless mag but I couldn't see anything that specifically stated the patent was for the 5.56mm 150-rd mag. http://www.google.com/patents/US4930400?printsec=drawing&hl=pt-BR#v=onepage&q&f=false

And it might be worth examining the magazine technology of larger weapons such as those using a continuous chain to deliver rounds to the feed section.
For example, have a look at the following pdf for a linkless magazine for 30mm autocannon
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012armaments/Thursday14121hearn.pdf

[swaghauler]

Log on to Surefire's website and look at the 60 rnd and 100 rnd STANAG type high capacity mags. They are not reliable but are a good first start. They have a very complex multiple spring assembly that makes a "quad stack" possible. The Military Arms Channel did a piece in the 60 round SureFire and even takes it apart to show you the "spring-stack (for lack of a better term). There are a lot of good video's on the Military Arms Channel on Youtube (I really liked the Armor tests).

[swaghauler]

Are you sure that the Pulse Rifle wouldn't use the electrically ignited projectiles used by Metal Storm's system. Their propelling charges are much smaller (the same diameter as the bullet) and not typical of a normal firearm's explosive propellant. You can stack Metal Storm's "cartridges" nose to tail in the barrel and only ignite the lead round (leaving the others untouched). It IS currently in service with the US Navy as a point defense system. The system can also achieve a rate of fire of ONE MILLION ROUNDS PER MINUTE (this is NOT a typo) if you could muster that amount of ammo. You can see this weapon system reviewed on Future Weapons (now on the Military Channel). Eliminating the powder charge in your illustration (G11 ammo?) would allow you to put even more rounds in your magazine.

[swaghauler]

I know the Pulse Rifle is supposed to be a 10mm, but I question why. It would seem to make more sense that a future battle rifle would be chambered in a very small caliber with an exploding payload. A 4.5mm or 4.2mm round would easily be able to house 100 or even 150 rounds in a standard length magazine. It would be an exceptionally flat shooter (the .17 can easily reach 4000 fps) with a minimum range of at least 100 meters. With an explosive tip, damage could be between 3 and 5 dice. Its Penetration could be 1/2, 1/2, 1, and 1. This would be a deadly round. Combined with a Metal Storm like ignition system, it could have a "programable" Rate of fire. Just set your rate of fire from 1 to say 50 or even 100 per pull (press?) of the trigger. I would go so far as to say you could even configure it to use 2 SEPARATE magazines and selectively fire from either one. You could have normal ammo in mag #1 and say Depleted Uranium rounds in mag #2. Just press a button to switch.

[jester]

Just add a 20mm grenade launcher and an optional flame unit and you are talking about the weapon the Space Marines used in Aliens.

[Targan]

Combined with a Metal Storm like ignition system, it could have a "programable" Rate of fire. Just set your rate of fire from 1 to say 50 or even 100 per pull (press?) of the trigger. I would go so far as to say you could even configure it to use 2 SEPARATE magazines and selectively fire from either one. You could have normal ammo in mag #1 and say Depleted Uranium rounds in mag #2. Just press a button to switch.

But the Metal Storm system doesn't use anything like a magazine. All the rounds are packed nose-to-tail in the barrel. So effectively the barrel and the magazine are the same thing. If you're talking about electrically-fired instead of impact primer-fired, sure, normal magazine tech applies.

[Rockwolf66]

Well as for why they went with a 10mm round I'm guessing that it's the smallest that they could get the bullet and still include all the features they wanted. Plus one gets to the point where adding an explosive element is ineffective. Heck while the MP7A1 looks really cool the round that it fires is not very impressive even if it goes really fast. From what I have heard and having handled the ammo I belive it, it takes between ten and twenty rounds to kill a person. The reason it's so popular with Spooky folks is that it's very quiet with a supressor.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z320/Rockwolf66/Saddle%20Butte%202000/SaddleButte024.jpg (http://s188.photobucket.com/user/Rockwolf66/media/Saddle%20Butte%202000/SaddleButte024.jpg.html)

and here is the MP7 in comparison to other firearms.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z320/Rockwolf66/Saddle%20Butte%202000/SaddleButte001.jpg (http://s188.photobucket.com/user/Rockwolf66/media/Saddle%20Butte%202000/SaddleButte001.jpg.html)

PS: Sorry about the Image sizes.

[Askold]

Just add a 20mm grenade launcher and an optional flame unit and you are talking about the weapon the Space Marines used in Aliens.


a) He is talking about the Pulse rifle that the Space marines had in Aliens.

b) The flamethrowers were a separate weapon. Ripley simply tapes one to a Pulse rifle.

c) Consider that the caseless ammo might have a really efficient propellant that does not require much space. ...And that it was just a movie so the huge magazine capacity might just be impossible.

[kato13]

Thanks for all the info guys.

Yes I am looking at stating the rifle from Aliens as a starting point for future weapon systems.

During the production of Aliens, James Cameron apparently consulted with some pretty knowledgeable people about feasible future weapons. Generally he likes to get technology right.

That being said the film came out in 1986 so obviously what was "feasible" then might be less so now.

These two wiki pages seem to lift stuff directly from the "Aliens Colonial Marines Technical Manual". The writers of said manual continued the conversation with the original consultants to flesh out the technical details a little more.

http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/M41A_Pulse_Rifle

http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/10%C3%9724mm_Caseless

Some useful quotes

Rifle

Size

Length

69.5 cm (stock retracted)
84.0 cm (stock extended)

Range

2,100 meters maximum
500 meters effective

The rifle weighs only 3.2 kg, although this increases to 4.9 kg when including the sling and fully-loaded magazine, and is built around a 24.7 cm long barre





Round

The round consists of a 210 grain, steel-jacketed and explosive-tipped projectile embedded within a rectangular propellant block of Nitramine 50.[1] Although the propellant mass is small, it is highly efficient, generating muzzle velocities of 840 meters per second. The M309 round is optimized for lethality against infantry wearing personal armor, with its factory pre-set impact fuse designed to explode after the round has penetrated armor to inflict maximum damage.[1] Consequently, the round is less effective against unarmored opponents, as it will often over penetrate soft targets without detonating, leaving the victim relatively unscathed and necessitating the use of multiple hits to score a kill.

[swaghauler]

But the Metal Storm system doesn't use anything like a magazine. All the rounds are packed nose-to-tail in the barrel. So effectively the barrel and the magazine are the same thing. If you're talking about electrically-fired instead of impact primer-fired, sure, normal magazine tech applies.

Current versions in development will have a conventional looking magazine that extends right into the "chamber area." The projectiles will be launched straight from the magazine (which is in line with the barrel) and the only moving part will be the magazine spring. I cannot imagine how hard that will be on the magazine's feed lips. An M249 can chew up a 30 round STANAG pretty badly; I can only imagine what launching bullets at up to 100 per trigger press would do to one. This version of Metal Storm will even have an ejection port for removing "dud" rounds (since there are no moving parts to jam). I can't wait to see a working prototype.

[bobcat]

honestly for an unconventional magazine system that actually lends a great deal of plausibility to the M41A you need look no further than the G11/MG11. granted they did go a bit over budget solving the cook-off problem, and the program got scrubbed shortly after they solved it, but the technology is there. also most weapons systems actually use the weapon itself to orient the round to the chamber. with your magazines i would expect a feed mechanism similar to that on a C-mag.

[pmulcahy11b]

Current versions in development will have a conventional looking magazine that extends right into the "chamber area." The projectiles will be launched straight from the magazine (which is in line with the barrel) and the only moving part will be the magazine spring. I cannot imagine how hard that will be on the magazine's feed lips. An M249 can chew up a 30 round STANAG pretty badly; I can only imagine what launching bullets at up to 100 per trigger press would do to one. This version of Metal Storm will even have an ejection port for removing "dud" rounds (since there are no moving parts to jam). I can't wait to see a working prototype.

How could even have a dud with such a weapon -- you'd need some kind of electrical system failure, combined with a double feed. Or a magazine failure-to-feed.

I ought to tell you guys sometime about the most awesome failure-to-feed I've ever seen -- and it saved my life during my suicide attempt.

[swaghauler]

How could even have a dud with such a weapon -- you'd need some kind of electrical system failure, combined with a double feed. Or a magazine failure-to-feed.

I ought to tell you guys sometime about the most awesome failure-to-feed I've ever seen -- and it saved my life during my suicide attempt.

Glad you had that jam. I've seen your website. A great deal of talent would have been lost.

There are some issues with the propellant that is wrapped around the bullet. it is in effect, "painted on," and will occasionally peel off. Also, as you aptly noted, the magazine can (and probably will be) a primary point of failure. I would still buy one of these just to try it out (if they ever come to market in my lifetime).

[Rockwolf66]

How could even have a dud with such a weapon -- you'd need some kind of electrical system failure, combined with a double feed. Or a magazine failure-to-feed.

I ought to tell you guys sometime about the most awesome failure-to-feed I've ever seen -- and it saved my life during my suicide attempt.

I'm glad the attempt failed. Come judgement day I already have to kick one friend's ass for eating his gun.

I really wish that you still had your thoughts on mental Illness up on your site. It was an interesting read from a Psychology standpoint and you aren't the only one I know who has such issues. One friend they diagnosed her and it seems that with treatment she is holding down an international career.

[pmulcahy11b]

In the M16 series at least, most misfires are failures to feed, followed by failure to extract. I always kept my extractor clean (it's not normally a part of the breakdown procedure), and came up with quite a stock of good, little-used magazines (make friends with the armorer and you'd surprised at what you can get).

When I got to the 82nd after Desert Storm, I had a new-to-me M16 that I didn't have the chance to go over well before use. Hence my experience during the suicide attempt. Supposedly refurbished, but not that well in case.

[swaghauler]

We had the A2's in Somalia and they worked ok. You had to clean them out about every 1000 rounds (especially the gas tube). The magazines were (and still are) the weak point in the system. I had eight mags that I knew would work in my rifle. The problem with the US GI mag (now called a STANO or STANAG) is that the magazines were built to a loose spec. One magazine will seat into the rifle's reciever like a tenth of an inch. Other's would seat in about a quarter of an inch. Some mags would allow a bolt to "ride over" the round while a deeper seating mag would create a double feed. The "anti-tilt" followers that came into being after 9/11 really do work. If you have an unreliable US GI mag; Put an anti-tilt follower and a new spring (I'm partial to Wolff gun springs). The superiority of the Magpul P-Mag was that they standardized the depth of the magazine in the magwell. This, and the general overall quality of the mag, is why they are seeing so much combat use.