Vehicle suggestions

[ArmySGT.]

I don't recall if there is a general vehicles thread. Each has been dedicated to one specific vehicle.

So suggest away... What to add to the game. What to take away / delete. What is your reasoning?

I think there is enough drawbacks for the Project to have stopped with the V-150 by the early eighties and adopted a different wheeled APC entirely.

[stormlion1]

Its odd, but my group wanted to use a modified Humvee. And I can see the benefits if allowed to modify the basic body rather than use the standard body. I believe in the end we wanted to heavily modify a armored M997 Maxi-Ambulance with the extra space given to the groups cargo needs and seating and a new gun with hatch mounted on the roof.

I can also see the worth of a Stryker as a transport choice though I would think the weight mat be an issue at times. But it has the benefits of being tough enough to deal with most issues and cargo capacity.

Me, I always figured that putting all the eggs in a single basket was a bad idea and that the option for modified jeeps would be the way to go. Two jeeps per team and if you were waking up five years after a nuclear war they would have the benefit of plenty of spare parts and easy to repair. Using a basically now civilian vehicle has the benefits of blending in more as well.

[cosmicfish]

I don't have the new version yet, just the old version... but I think Science-One was the only vehicle I kept the last time I played. The rest are dated and/or impractical and/or conspicuous compared to what else they could do. The Science-One I kept because, being original it could be presumed to be cutting edge, because there were no other mobile science labs I could find, and because I couldn't think of anything better!

I did reject 3 vehicles before any others - MARS-One, the hovercraft, and the gyrocopter. The first is just a ridiculous combat vehicle, and the other two are inferior to simply having boats, APC's, and helicopters.

I recently started putting together a new Project - as a GM, I want a decent idea of overall structure, scope, and TOE before I start the game. I assumed the War occurred at today + 2 years, near enough to keep things current but far enough to allow for nuclear war to reasonably happen. I tried to pick vehicles that were (a) armored all over (because MP members are NOT disposable!), (b) easy enough to build and/or move within the US, and (c) consistent with what I saw as the needs of the project.

For the most part, I used Strikers as my main Recon and MARS vehicle, with some Bradleys for the tougher MARS crews. I used the Lockheed-Martin JLTV as my "jeep" and the M1074 heavy truck as my primary support vehicle for Specialty teams. The only hovercraft I have on my TOE is the LCAC, because a good deal of my higher structure is devoted to logistical support to the teams.

[nuke11]

I'm leaning more away from military vehicles myself. It is a lot easier to find spare parts for vehicles that are based on commercial designs then military designs.

The Terradyne Gurkha series that is based on the Ford F550 platform. The 3 different models can be modified for MP use, to provide different teams a vehicle on a common platform.

LAPV or RPV - Recon, MARS, etc
MPV - CP, Ambulance, Specialty Team, etc

http://www.terradyneinc.com/index.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ-Jiz3YVGI&t=87

[cosmicfish]

I'm leaning more away from military vehicles myself. It is a lot easier to find spare parts for vehicles that are based on commercial designs then military designs.
Why would the Project base their supply chain on scavenging? The F550 is not the most common vehicle anyway, and by the time the Project was done ripping out parts and replacing them with a fusion reactor and other devices, there really would not be much left that was likely to need replacing!

The Terradyne Gurkha...
The vehicle itself is not unreasonable - my biggest complaints are that as a police vehicle it is relatively poorly armored. The Project was planning on coming in post-war, I would expect to at least occasionally face military weaponry and vehicles, not to mention IED's. I picked something similar to use as an auxiliary, XR311-type vehicle, but I think Recon and MARS teams would need something more rugged.

[ArmySGT.]

Why would the Project base their supply chain on scavenging? The F550 is not the most common vehicle anyway, and by the time the Project was done ripping out parts and replacing them with a fusion reactor and other devices, there really would not be much left that was likely to need replacing! I believe Nuke11 means in general. There would have been more factories, warehouses, and supply parts depots for these civilian components versus trying to find the correct drive train parts for the 5ton truck drive train used on the V150. Commercial diesel motor if you supply some to police or state survivors and a commercial transmission in either case.

The vehicle itself is not unreasonable - my biggest complaints are that as a police vehicle it is relatively poorly armored. The Project was planning on coming in post-war, I would expect to at least occasionally face military weaponry and vehicles, not to mention IED's. I picked something similar to use as an auxiliary, XR311-type vehicle, but I think Recon and MARS teams would need something more rugged.

Meh, the V-150 of 3rd edition is an APC with enough armor to survive hits by 7.62N armor piercing and 155mm HE fragments with detonation at minimum of 50 meters. The same standard for the M113. The Stryker is better surviving hits from 14.5mm due to the reality that this is common on 3rd world technicals.

[ArmySGT.]

I'm leaning more away from military vehicles myself. It is a lot easier to find spare parts for vehicles that are based on commercial designs then military designs.

The Terradyne Gurkha series that is based on the Ford F550 platform. The 3 different models can be modified for MP use, to provide different teams a vehicle on a common platform.

LAPV or RPV - Recon, MARS, etc
MPV - CP, Ambulance, Specialty Team, etc

http://www.terradyneinc.com/index.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ-Jiz3YVGI&t=87

Excellent, I downloaded the .pdf files includes on their web page...... It is almost like they are war gamers too. :)

[cosmicfish]

I believe Nuke11 means in general. There would have been more factories, warehouses, and supply parts depots for these civilian components versus trying to find the correct drive train parts for the 5ton truck drive train used on the V150. Commercial diesel motor if you supply some to police or state survivors and a commercial transmission in either case.
Still not seeing why this is a factor. MP vehicles aren't stock, and indeed many of the most important parts couldn't possibly be taken from civilian sources or even military sources, they would have to be stored and/or actively produced by the Project itself. Even if you could use civilian parts, you probably would not want to - that Gurkha probably tears through parts a lot faster than vehicles built from the ground up, but that isn't a big deal because it is not intended for frequent use and exists in a parts-plentiful world!

As another side note, the F550 is only actually produced in a few places, and I worked for a network of Ford dealers at one point - those parts are not commonly available. They are actually kept in a relative handful of places, and the relative ease of getting them currently is a factor of our high-functioning transport network. Depending on that system is less realistic than having your own stored parts and manufacturing capability.

Meh, the V-150 of 3rd edition is an APC with enough armor to survive hits by 7.62N armor piercing and 155mm HE fragments with detonation at minimum of 50 meters. The same standard for the M113. The Stryker is better surviving hits from 14.5mm due to the reality that this is common on 3rd world technicals.
The combat domain of the last 20 years is a big part of the reason I went with the Stryker when constructing a new campaign - vehicles impervious only to 7.62 are going to be frequently vulnerable to hostiles who can raid the local Gander Mountain for .50cal rifles and who can line the road with IED's.

[ArmySGT.]

Still not seeing why this is a factor. MP vehicles aren't stock, and indeed many of the most important parts couldn't possibly be taken from civilian sources or even military sources, they would have to be stored and/or actively produced by the Project itself. Even if you could use civilian parts, you probably would not want to - that Gurkha probably tears through parts a lot faster than vehicles built from the ground up, but that isn't a big deal because it is not intended for frequent use and exists in a parts-plentiful world!

Which as you point out with Ford truck parts makes them even more uncommon........ I am just going to stop at Napa for a M1114 uparmored humvee transmission........

Ok, just as has been rationalized in some other parts..... Before there was a Morrow Project, there was a Morrow Industries. The material that equips the Project is manufactured or procured for the Project is done through real and shell corporations of Morrow Industries.

That rationale right there takes the limitations of really anything you want for your version of the Morrow Project.

So, it is entirely reasonable there is a F550 supply chain for these that a Project Team can get parts from a heavy diesel shop.

As another side note, the F550 is only actually produced in a few places, and I worked for a network of Ford dealers at one point - those parts are not commonly available. They are actually kept in a relative handful of places, and the relative ease of getting them currently is a factor of our high-functioning transport network. Depending on that system is less realistic than having your own stored parts and manufacturing capability. Which is exactly the same as equipping your Project with Strykers or Humvees........... Even less parts availability because I am not getting vision blocks, new hatch hardware, or the wiring harness equipment at the Flying J truck stop either.

So the rationale against the F550 makes the case even more so against Project owned military vehicles.

The combat domain of the last 20 years is a big part of the reason I went with the Stryker when constructing a new campaign - vehicles impervious only to 7.62 are going to be frequently vulnerable to hostiles who can raid the local Gander Mountain for .50cal rifles and who can line the road with IED's.

I don't give my players these things because it is already damned hard enough to get them out of the V-150 to interact with the NPCs.

I have resorted to killing the V-150 in a game just to get them out of the can.

[ArmySGT.]

Nuke11,

Are you going to put those .pdfs up on your website?

I am entertaining the thought of making 3rd edition stats......

4th edition stats are funky and I have to work that out for myself yet.

[cosmicfish]

Which as you point out with Ford truck parts makes them even more uncommon........ I am just going to stop at Napa for a M1114 uparmored humvee transmission........
That isn't really my point at all - my point is that the post-apocalyptic landscape is effectively an unknown territory, and like any unknown territory you need to bring anything you need with you. The relative scarcity of M1114 parts is irrelevant if finding them is a happy coincidence but not at all necessary. The most important factor should be the ability of the part or vehicle to perform the job, the supply chain is then built to support it.

Besides, those parts are also part of what you are going to use to rebuild society, and parts that they themselves may well have already scavenged. If there are F550 parts around, I would want and expect to see them used in non-Project vehicles by non-Project personnel!

EDIT: I would also note that the F550 was not designed for a post-apocalyptic, supply-scarce environment. The whole vehicle is designed to maximize profit, not ensure peak performance with minimal repair! If I was given the job of building something for the Project, I can't imagine that I am going to find many commercially-produced parts that would be useful. It's kind of like designing things for NASA - even the simplest things become custom and expensive because of the demands placed on them.

Ok, just as has been rationalized in some other parts..... Before there was a Morrow Project, there was a Morrow Industries. The material that equips the Project is manufactured or procured for the Project is done through real and shell corporations of Morrow Industries.
Exactly. And that should include not only a good supply of repair parts but also facilities for producing more.

So, it is entirely reasonable there is a F550 supply chain for these that a Project Team can get parts from a heavy diesel shop.
I just think that if F550 parts are being used by the Project, the rationale would not have to do with ability to find parts, post-Apocalypse, from non-Morrow sources.

I don't give my players these things because it is already damned hard enough to get them out of the V-150 to interact with the NPCs.

I have resorted to killing the V-150 in a game just to get them out of the can.
A valid point, but there are lots of ways to handle this. And in the end, TMP is one of those games where players are naturally and reasonably going to want to spend a lot of time in their vehicles. Getting them out for non-combat should be a non-issue, and getting them out for combat isn't that hard.

[nuke11]

Why would the Project base their supply chain on scavenging? The F550 is not the most common vehicle anyway, and by the time the Project was done ripping out parts and replacing them with a fusion reactor and other devices, there really would not be much left that was likely to need replacing!


The vehicle itself is not unreasonable - my biggest complaints are that as a police vehicle it is relatively poorly armored. The Project was planning on coming in post-war, I would expect to at least occasionally face military weaponry and vehicles, not to mention IED's. I picked something similar to use as an auxiliary, XR311-type vehicle, but I think Recon and MARS teams would need something more rugged.

What is your idea for a fusion conversion? Remove all of the running gear from the vehicle and substitute electric motors at the wheels?

[nuke11]

Nuke11,

Are you going to put those .pdfs up on your website?

I am entertaining the thought of making 3rd edition stats......

4th edition stats are funky and I have to work that out for myself yet.

Not directly, I'm going to do up the stats for 3rd/4th editions and then post them, but this won't happen for awhile thou.

[cosmicfish]

What is your idea for a fusion conversion? Remove all of the running gear from the vehicle and substitute electric motors at the wheels?
Not at the wheels, for a variety of reasons. But your entire drivetrain goes right out the window, to be replaced by the reactor and a big electric motor (or two, if you prefer). Hard to replace the axles but replacing the transaxle makes a lot of sense and is pretty easy with two drive motors. Don't even need a transmission!! Your suspension remains the same, as well as a few auxiliary parts, but the inside of an electric vehicle does not share many parts with the inside of a comparable fossil fuel vehicle. And by "does not" I mean "can not" - the systems are not compatible without massive inefficiencies.

[ArmySGT.]

That isn't really my point at all - my point is that the post-apocalyptic landscape is effectively an unknown territory, and like any unknown territory you need to bring anything you need with you. The relative scarcity of M1114 parts is irrelevant if finding them is a happy coincidence but not at all necessary. The most important factor should be the ability of the part or vehicle to perform the job, the supply chain is then built to support it. No one is saying that this is the case………… It is just helpful that the same parts used on dumptrucks, moving vans, car haulers, tow trucks, beverage delivery trucks, and so; can be found at any heavy diesel truck dealership. What is your Team going to do? Wait for someone to journey to the regional base or unmanned delta base that may be a 1000 miles away? Then bring it back along with the tools and equipment to repair it? Have you noticed a maintenance and support job skillset in 3rd edition somewhere that I have missed? Yes, the Morrow Project is going to stock parts and even manufacture parts because the factories in the major cities were nuked and/or there are no longer power plants or a power grid to run them. Doesn’t make sense to totally ignore thousands of diesel mechanics; and hundreds of repair shops in small towns that do not attract the attention of soviet ICBM targeting when planning your post-apocalyptic recovery operations with a 3-5 year startup. Granted the casualtie will be high among those civilians, that equipment though is going to be sitting there useless without a power grid. Hundreds of these can be MI front companies for MP repair and recovery operations… Especially ones that can assist in getting civilian assets like garbage trucks, fire trucks, tow trucks, delivery trucks, and such running…….. F550s are common as hell.
Besides, those parts are also part of what you are going to use to rebuild society, and parts that they themselves may well have already scavenged. If there are F550 parts around, I would want and expect to see them used in non-Project vehicles by non-Project personnel! I don’t think that the Project was planning on scavenging to keep its own fleet operational. From a civilian fleet managers persceptive, it makes a great deal of sense to use what is already being manufactured, with known quantities and properties, when planning and purchasing your own fleet. From a costs perspective this makes complete sense and the MP is a bunch of altruistic nerdy idealists.
Exactly. And that should include not only a good supply of repair parts but also facilities for producing more. No one says there isn’t. It is a long walk back to the regional base or to get to a delta base just for spare parts. Wouldn’t it be better if you could trade with a local heavy diesel mechanic for the labor and parts just for his/her expertise; and because that person has the shop and tools? Makes for good role play too.
I just think that if F550 parts are being used by the Project, the rationale would not have to do with ability to find parts, post-Apocalypse, from non-Morrow sources.
And how did this become mutually exclusive? By that rationale, the Project should be using U.S. military equipment that would better used restoring order and lawful government authority.

A valid point, but there are lots of ways to handle this. And in the end, TMP is one of those games where players are naturally and reasonably going to want to spend a lot of time in their vehicles.
Getting them out for non-combat should be a non-issue, and getting them out for combat isn't that hard. Heh, I had to destroy the V-150 to get the role playing going……. I literally could not get the PCs to leave the machine…….. They would find some way to drive there with weapons out the firing ports or would not go. They drove away from most encounters…….. It was pure frustration from the GM stand point.

[cosmicfish]

No one is saying that this is the case………… It is just helpful that the same parts used on dumptrucks, moving vans, car haulers, tow trucks, beverage delivery trucks, and so; can be found at any heavy diesel truck dealership. What is your Team going to do? Wait for someone to journey to the regional base or unmanned delta base that may be a 1000 miles away?
First, why would bases be so scattered? I mean, we only see one in the official modules, but how does that show us their actual density? Second, what are the odds that the part that you need is even going to be available at a truck garage anyway? Bearing in mind that the only parts that are likely to be interchangeable will be suspension parts anyway, it seems just as likely that you could jury-rig something as needed rather than find a direct replacement. And then yes, get the parts sent from the Project.

I should note that, related to this, I never, NEVER had all my players in one MPV. Big risk for any team, more than seems reasonable to bear.

Hundreds of these can be MI front companies for MP repair and recovery operations… Especially ones that can assist in getting civilian assets like garbage trucks, fire trucks, tow trucks, delivery trucks, and such running…….. F550s are common as hell.
If they are fronts for the Project, why is this an issue? Heck, they could stock deuterium if that is the case!

Realistically, you cannot have a fleet of vehicles without establishing a logistical support network. Parts should and would be pre-positioned based on the likelihood and consequence of failure, whether that was at bases or just in supply caches at the Group-level. Likewise, whether we see them or not, the tools and skills would have to be there too, even if the entirety of repair in TMP is limited to two skills!

From a civilian fleet managers persceptive, it makes a great deal of sense to use what is already being manufactured, with known quantities and properties, when planning and purchasing your own fleet. From a costs perspective this makes complete sense and the MP is a bunch of altruistic nerdy idealists.
But this is not a civilian fleet, it is a completely different conundrum with completely different assumptions. Plus, I cannot see why cost would be a factor here - the boss is a time traveler, there is no reason why the Project should not have had a finger in every major investment and development in the US. Heck, I would believe it if half the gambling winnings in this country were secretly funneled to Project accounts!

Wouldn’t it be better if you could trade with a local heavy diesel mechanic for the labor and parts just for his/her expertise; and because that person has the shop and tools? Makes for good role play too.
I agree that it makes for good roleplay, but I would use that as jury-rigging - finding the spring or wheel bearing that is "close enough", banging and cutting it into shape, and then living with the reduced performance and questionable reliability until they get the correct part from command.

And how did this become mutually exclusive? By that rationale, the Project should be using U.S. military equipment that would better used restoring order and lawful government authority.
It isn't necessarily mutually exclusive, but it's kind of like saying you want to build an air force based on commercially-available civilian parts - there are going to be a few places here and there where you can get away with it, but for the most part that F-14 just isn't going to take that Cessna altimeter! The ease of getting parts doesn't matter if those parts perform poorly and constantly fail because they are being overtaxed.

As a side note, when I did my last redo of the TOE, I started with the assumption that everything was based around the "current" US inventory - it would allow for easier movement and generally higher trust. That having been said, it would be mostly about appearances, with many differences compared to the issue vehicles.

Heh, I had to destroy the V-150 to get the role playing going……. I literally could not get the PCs to leave the machine…….. They would find some way to drive there with weapons out the firing ports or would not go. They drove away from most encounters…….. It was pure frustration from the GM stand point.
Eh, if they really want to not do anything, I can wait them out. After a few ransacked, burned villages, they start to get the idea that they either have to adapt and take risks, or have a game whether they are just tourists to disaster. In which case, planning gets really easy!!

[ArmySGT.]

First, why would bases be so scattered? I mean, we only see one in the official modules, but how does that show us their actual density? We have Prime base, Delta Base (Starnaman) , Commo base KA (Final Watch), VB-1 medical (Final Watch), Commo Base KE (American Outback), Agricultural base TA-14 (Fall Back), Power station TN-7, Water station TN-6 (Desert Search). All of them are well concealed and very far off from urban centers or .gov landmarks. The Ag base is the only one besides Prime with the ability to perform repairs on vehicles. Bases are small, typically unmanned and far, far from urban areas under the most orchestrated of deception projects.

One of the most important, regional bases has not been presented in a module just yet.
Second, what are the odds that the part that you need is even going to be available at a truck garage anyway? Bearing in mind that the only parts that are likely to be interchangeable will be suspension parts anyway, it seems just as likely that you could jury-rig something as needed rather than find a direct replacement. And then yes, get the parts sent from the Project. Not at all. What even gives you that idea in the first place? This is specifically why the engineers are using the F550 as the platform for this vehicle……… Suspension, wheels, hubs, drivetrain, transmission, differentials, wiring components, seats, seatbelts, lighting…….. better than 50% of this vehicle (I’ll have to read their website again) is off the shelf to make it more attractive to the typical buyer. City police departments and .gov agencies. The MP is going to swap the diesel motor for an electric one and a fusion plant of the same dimensions…… same transmission. Not even the DoD tries to have parts exclusive only to one vehicle wherever possible…… Tail lights and headlights being something that is universal across all land platforms.
I should note that, related to this, I never, NEVER had all my players in one MPV. Big risk for any team, more than seems reasonable to bear.
Which however, is very MP…….. only Damocles and Lonestar starts with the PCs in more than one MPV.
If they are fronts for the Project, why is this an issue? Heck, they could stock deuterium if that is the case! It isn’t canon but, we speculate all the time who and what is the Council of Tomorrow. Where else did they ready for the War besides directly into boltholes and secret bases……… All the bases are far, far away from where things would be needed most in the 3-5 year plan. Owning a truck stop chain with multiple locations along primary and secondary routes always with 20 miles of a major city, large town, or important piece of infrastructure gives a group a level of support locally.
Realistically, you cannot have a fleet of vehicles without establishing a logistical support network. Parts should and would be pre-positioned based on the likelihood and consequence of failure, whether that was at bases or just in supply caches at the Group-level. Likewise, whether we see them or not, the tools and skills would have to be there too, even if the entirety of repair in TMP is limited to two skills! You can’t burden the Team down with more equipment……. The vehicle load is already ridiculous with ammo and gear…… the most common “parts” in a cache are V-150 tires….. which is stupid…… These are the same size as 5 tons and dumptrucks. But this is not a civilian fleet, it is a completely different conundrum with completely different assumptions. Plus, This is a civilian fleet. The MP project is a completely civilian venture……….. These people are not military or government; financed and run by altruistic businessmen…….. There is every indication it was run as they know how, like a corporation.
I cannot see why cost would be a factor here - the boss is a time traveler, there is no reason why the Project should not have had a finger in every major investment and development in the US. Heck, I would believe it if half the gambling winnings in this country were secretly funneled to Project accounts! I discussed this with Richard Tucholka once via skype. The Morrow Project is one dimension of all the dimensions in games created by Richard and Tri Tac games……… Now, Richard will say that MP belongs to Timeline and Chris Garland (and has to me) but, when it was his………….. Bruce Morrow is a dimensional traveler, he doesn’t always get back to the correct dimension at the correct point in time…… So what he does in one, prevent the War, in another all is lost, another MP functions flawlessly, in another it is despotic…….. there is an infinite number of earths.
I agree that it makes for good roleplay, but I would use that as jury-rigging - finding the spring or wheel bearing that is "close enough", banging and cutting it into shape, and then living with the reduced performance and questionable reliability until they get the correct part from command. You would not be unless we are talking about the armor, bullet resistant glass, or NBC system……. Everything possible would be stock F550.
It isn't necessarily mutually exclusive, but it's kind of like saying you want to build an air force based on commercially-available civilian parts - there are going to be a few places here and there where you can get away with it, but for the most part that F-14 just isn't going to take that Cessna altimeter! The ease of getting parts doesn't matter if those parts perform poorly and constantly fail because they are being overtaxed. This is totally a strawman……. A stryker isn’t a tank even with a 105mm on top either.
As a side note, when I did my last redo of the TOE, I started with the assumption that everything was based around the "current" US inventory - it would allow for easier movement and generally higher trust. That having been said, it would be mostly about appearances, with many differences compared to the issue vehicles. Which isn’t consistent with 3rd edition and your own home brew……… Canon has teams and equipment begin being placed in boltholes in the 60s and 70s with an equipment update in 1985 for a war in 1989.

You can’t expect to argue your homebrew system or timeline argument with us…… We like to hear it for sure, but everyone has their own. Canon is the only thing we have in common……. And that can be debated tirelessly.
Eh, if they really want to not do anything, I can wait them out. After a few ransacked, burned villages, they start to get the idea that they either have to adapt and take risks, or have a game whether they are just tourists to disaster. In which case, planning gets really easy!! That gets tedious by the third session for me (the GM)…… have to form that connection with NPCs to get them out………. The woman screaming in the woods didn’t even work to lure them out and be heroes……. So the girl did get eaten by ritualistic cannibals versus being saved by the brave MP team.

[cosmicfish]

We have Prime base, Delta Base (Starnaman) , Commo base KA (Final Watch), VB-1 medical (Final Watch), Commo Base KE (American Outback), Agricultural base TA-14 (Fall Back), Power station TN-7, Water station TN-6 (Desert Search). All of them are well concealed and very far off from urban centers or .gov landmarks. The Ag base is the only one besides Prime with the ability to perform repairs on vehicles. Bases are small, typically unmanned and far, far from urban areas under the most orchestrated of deception projects.
We have a pretty small sample size to be declaring any certainty in canon. Yes, the bases avoided major targets - i.e., military bases and cities. But we don't really have a great idea how densely packed everything is in the "safe zones", and when you really come down to it, that is where the heart of the Project has to be. Can't do much more than recon Chicago until you have a logistics chain able to reach into the city.

And again, canon lets us down - I have absolutely no idea who the heck TN-7 and TN-6 were meant to serve. Their placement seems absolutely pointless.


Not at all. What even gives you that idea in the first place? This is specifically why the engineers are using the F550 as the platform for this vehicle……… Suspension, wheels, hubs, drivetrain, transmission, differentials, wiring components, seats, seatbelts, lighting…….. better than 50% of this vehicle (I’ll have to read their website again) is off the shelf to make it more attractive to the typical buyer.
Suspension, wheels, and hubs: I already mentioned as being reasonably compatible, but also the kind of thing where you could stock spares easily.

Drivetrain, transmission, differentials, wiring components: All are tossed when you talk about MPV's and other electric vehicles - something that the real world vehicle does not have to address!

Seatbelts and lighting: Absolutely compatible, but hardly mission critical. If you can't bodge up a replacement seat and a set of lights, then the problem isn't parts, it's know-how.

City police departments and .gov agencies. The MP is going to swap the diesel motor for an electric one and a fusion plant of the same dimensions…… same transmission.
Don't need or want a transmission with an electric motor. Just one more thing to fail for no real advantage.

Not even the DoD tries to have parts exclusive only to one vehicle wherever possible…… Tail lights and headlights being something that is universal across all land platforms.
Sure, but the DoD doesn't demand compatibility with civilian platforms. They like it, but every RFP I have seen has placed such concerns secondary to a bunch of other factors.

Which however, is very MP…….. only Damocles and Lonestar starts with the PCs in more than one MPV.
I know - personal switch. The presumed size of the Project with the actual size of the US suggests that one MPV-teams are going to die at (to me) an unacceptable rate waiting for that other team a hundred miles away to get the message and get there. You won't have much time to wait if the reason for vehicle failure is "enemy fire".

It isn’t canon but, we speculate all the time who and what is the Council of Tomorrow. Where else did they ready for the War besides directly into boltholes and secret bases……… All the bases are far, far away from where things would be needed most in the 3-5 year plan. Owning a truck stop chain with multiple locations along primary and secondary routes always with 20 miles of a major city, large town, or important piece of infrastructure gives a group a level of support locally.
Great! So stash a cache in those facilities - why does that require compatibility with civilian vehicles?

You can’t burden the Team down with more equipment……. The vehicle load is already ridiculous with ammo and gear…… the most common “parts” in a cache are V-150 tires….. which is stupid…… These are the same size as 5 tons and dumptrucks.
So edit the gear. The lists in the books were made by, well, game designers. Real engineers and strategists would have an idea of how often parts would fail in combat and non-combat use, and would distribute spares accordingly. So adjust the caches. You don't have to give details - just list "MPV repair parts", and decide on a case-by-case basis if that should be there. And if that sounds arbitrary it is no more so than deciding that this truck mechanic happens to have a 2009 automatic 5-speed F550 transmission!

This is a civilian fleet. The MP project is a completely civilian venture……….. These people are not military or government; financed and run by altruistic businessmen…….. There is every indication it was run as they know how, like a corporation.
A civilian fleet with machineguns and anti-tank missiles and armored personnel carriers and with a high percentage of military veterans. Defense contractors are also completely civilian ventures run by businessmen... but if this is their job, they learn about it and listen to experts. This is literally a fate-of-the-world venture, why would there be any amateurism about it?

I discussed this with Richard Tucholka once via skype. The Morrow Project is one dimension of all the dimensions in games created by Richard and Tri Tac games……… Now, Richard will say that MP belongs to Timeline and Chris Garland (and has to me) but, when it was his………….. Bruce Morrow is a dimensional traveler, he doesn’t always get back to the correct dimension at the correct point in time…… So what he does in one, prevent the War, in another all is lost, another MP functions flawlessly, in another it is despotic…….. there is an infinite number of earths.
Okay... had not heard that before. Interesting variation which implies that Morrow appears only once? That is rather tragic, as it implies that everything is futile...

Regardless, certain trends would be safe and at least as consistent as the war itself - "this is a computer and the components - watch for these and invest heavily" or "these are some ideas that technology can enable - this thing called facebook makes a killing, so either invest in it, or start it!"

You would not be unless we are talking about the armor, bullet resistant glass, or NBC system……. Everything possible would be stock F550.
And I just don't think a stock F550 is going to be up to the demands of the Project. It's a cost-saving measure, not a performance measure. And with the Project, performance has to come first!

This is totally a strawman……. A stryker isn’t a tank even with a 105mm on top either.
No it isn't, but there is a reason it isn't built on an F550, either! Seriously, even mid-grade military components are built to performance standards that leave non-competitive civilian counterparts way behind. And the Stryker and Hummer are built on the assumption that one of the largest logistical operations in the history is maybe 10-20 miles away ready to offer a rescue and repairs. An F550 is built under even milder assumptions.

Which isn’t consistent with 3rd edition and your own home brew……… Canon has teams and equipment begin being placed in boltholes in the 60s and 70s with an equipment update in 1985 for a war in 1989.
It actually IS consistent with my current homebrew - the only vehicles I use that are not current US inventory are the Science-One (because I couldn't figure out a replacement and wanted it in the game) and the JLTV, which I fudged as being "very-near-future" US inventory.

And canon makes no sense here*. Why waste resources building equipment that will never be used when you have a rough estimate of when the war happens? Build training mockups, build the actual vehicles later. The whole update plan is absurd. They can build freeze tubes and fusion reactors, but they can't build an MPV their first time around??

That gets tedious by the third session for me (the GM)…… have to form that connection with NPCs to get them out………. The woman screaming in the woods didn’t even work to lure them out and be heroes……. So the girl did get eaten by ritualistic cannibals versus being saved by the brave MP team.
I've never had this problem. I've always been able to get the characters out of the vehicles if I needed them out, and have always tried to give them realistic options and consequences of their behaviors, and if they didn't get it after a few tries I don't think I would keep going with that campaign. Not every group of players get every game, and if they really aren't getting it by the third session then this is not the game for them!

*: Or any other places, either. TMP was, IMO, a great idea, but it was poorly executed. More than any other game, this system and story leave me scratching my head. It exists solely as a puzzle, not for realism, and the problem with that is that puzzles are notoriously hard to expand on if they don't make sense!

[ArmySGT.]

We have a pretty small sample size to be declaring any certainty in canon. Yes, the bases avoided major targets - i.e., military bases and cities. But we don't really have a great idea how densely packed everything is in the "safe zones", and when you really come down to it, that is where the heart of the Project has to be. Can't do much more than recon Chicago until you have a logistics chain able to reach into the city. We know that the logistics system started at the top with Prime Base coordinating. The Regional bases are approximately ten in number, and that these were supplemented by an unknown number of unmanned Delta bases, plus Team caches. This indicates that there are not a lot of bases……… consolidation of the resources being consistent with a CEO / Corporate Board approach to running an operation.
And again, canon lets us down - I have absolutely no idea who the heck TN-7 and TN-6 were meant to serve. Their placement seems absolutely pointless. TN-7 is a power plant that will aid in the recovery of Las Vegas, Hoover Dam, and that portion of western AZ and southern CA. In addition, TN-7 is supposed to broadcast power up to Morrowsat that will direct that power in the form or microwaves to a power reception team. That is presumably to jump start recovery anywhere the grid is down, or restart a plant such as a nuke power plant from a cold start. There is one power reception team in Seattle.

TN-6 is clean drinking water and water for agriculture surrounding Las Vegas as the Colorado probably wasn’t going to be usable in the 3-5 year plan.
Suspension, wheels, and hubs: I already mentioned as being reasonably compatible, but also the kind of thing where you could stock spares easily. Yes, you can. In what quantity? How do you predict wear in a post apocalypse? How do you plan to position spares, when you cannot predict what is destroyed by Soviet ICBMs? Making them cross compatible with commercial systems fits with the plan to assist lawful civilian government. The Project has a lot of resources but, doesn’t have anywhere close to the number of personnel required. It was essential to the Project to aid the survivors but, get the survivors working and assisting in their own recovery. The Morrow Project is hundreds of personnel at best. Prime Base is the largest with only 250, and Combined Group Seattle is 79 persons for a metropolitan area which could have 100,000 survivors.
Drivetrain, transmission, differentials, wiring components: All are tossed when you talk about MPV's and other electric vehicles - something that the real world vehicle does not have to address! No, they are not. Purpose built electric vehicles in some cases, which is part of why they are ridiculously expensive…. Each part is custom and particular to them.

An MPV is a engine conversion only….. the drive affects the transmission, then the differentials, then the drivetrain, then the hubs if it has them. That way you retain the offroad performance. It is only an engine swap.
Seatbelts and lighting: Absolutely compatible, but hardly mission critical. If you can't bodge up a replacement seat and a set of lights, then the problem isn't parts, it's know-how. It is when you have to manufacture or purchase in complete secrecy and completely off books. Hiding and extra 20 transmissions in a fleet purchase of 100 or 1000 is far easier than 20 transmissions that fit nothing in your inventory.
Don't need or want a transmission with an electric motor. Just one more thing to fail for no real advantage. In conversion you do. The drive train is still there, these are not electric motor hubs.
Sure, but the DoD doesn't demand compatibility with civilian platforms. They like it, but every RFP I have seen has placed such concerns secondary to a bunch of other factors. The manufacturer does it anyway. The engines, transmissions and most of the components are compatible with heavy hauling or construction equipment. Those Cummins and Continental diesels are very common out there on job sites. This, transmissions, alternators, shocks, springs, gears, exhaust systems…… When an RFP comes out that a defense manufacturer can’t just pull of the shelf to meet the specifications the manufacturer demands money and lets the government pay for the R&D. The manufacturer then uses that knowledge to improve their civilian line and market to those that can use them…………. Those big diesel pickups everywhere right now are using engines found in Humvees.
I know - personal switch. The presumed size of the Project with the actual size of the US suggests that one MPV-teams are going to die at (to me) an unacceptable rate waiting for that other team a hundred miles away to get the message and get there. You won't have much time to wait if the reason for vehicle failure is "enemy fire". The Combined Groups were supposed to operate together…….. The only one out on a limb here realistically is Recon.
Great! So stash a cache in those facilities - why does that require compatibility with civilian vehicles? Cost…….. the Project has to buy a lot of vehicles and a lot of spares. You can have ten Strykers for $1.5 million apiece or you can have 150 of these. Do you sideline Project Members because you could not procure enough Strykers…… Strykers are big fat hippos that don’t do well in urban or dense forest terrain.
So edit the gear. The lists in the books were made by, well, game designers. Real engineers and strategists would have an idea of how often parts would fail in combat and non-combat use, and would distribute spares accordingly. So adjust the caches. You don't have to give details - just list "MPV repair parts", and decide on a case-by-case basis if that should be there. And if that sounds arbitrary it is no more so than deciding that this truck mechanic happens to have a 2009 automatic 5-speed F550 transmission! Which is a GM choice for gameplay but, your average MP gamer is obsessive about detail and demands reasonable, plausible explanations for why, and how things are.
A civilian fleet with machineguns and anti-tank missiles and armored personnel carriers and with a high percentage of military veterans. Defense contractors are also completely civilian ventures run by businessmen... but if this is their job, they learn about it and listen to experts. This is literally a fate-of-the-world venture, why would there be any amateurism about it? Actually look at 3rd again…… without fudging rolls of the dice, it isn’t that easy to be a veteran outside of MARS. The only veteran MP character I can think of without going throught modules with a comb is the leader of TN-7.
Okay... had not heard that before. Interesting variation which implies that Morrow appears only once? That is rather tragic, as it implies that everything is futile...
It means that he tries but, the circumstances are different in each variation. That and it seems that like the Terminator series, the War is inevitable, all he can affect is how much is preserved and how well the recovery performs. He is doing the same thing in more than one dimension on more than one earth trying to affect variations of war, nuclear war, and bio warfare.
Regardless, certain trends would be safe and at least as consistent as the war itself - "this is a computer and the components - watch for these and invest heavily" or "these are some ideas that technology can enable - this thing called facebook makes a killing, so either invest in it, or start it!" In some of the Canon materials Bruce is a brilliant financial investor and that is how he gets it started and brings the Council of Tomorrow together. There is only one Bruce and he has other things to do.
And I just don't think a stock F550 is going to be up to the demands of the Project. It's a cost-saving measure, not a performance measure. And with the Project, performance has to come first! I don’t…… In the 3-5 year plan highways and roads are still going to be there. Only in the bombed out areas are you going to need heavier and there is little sane reason to venture in.
No it isn't, but there is a reason it isn't built on an F550, either! Seriously, even mid-grade military components are built to performance standards that leave non-competitive civilian counterparts way behind. And the Stryker and Hummer are built on the assumption that one of the largest logistical operations in the history is maybe 10-20 miles away ready to offer a rescue and repairs. An F550 is built under even milder assumptions. Strykers and Humvees rely on mechanics organic to the unit operating them and larger maintenance unit in theater if not based out of the same locale……… Humvees break with the same or more regularity than anything on the street…… I would argue more so having operated heavy equipment….. A civilian company won’t buy parts from a shoddy manufacturer, the DoD is struck with whoever was the lowest bidder until bidding can open again. Seriously, where do you get this idea that Humvees are really robust? I drove and maintained M1025s and M1114s in the Army for 15 years……..It can be amazing how shitting the parts are.
It actually IS consistent with my current homebrew - the only vehicles I use that are not current US inventory are the Science-One (because I couldn't figure out a replacement and wanted it in the game) and the JLTV, which I fudged as being "very-near-future" US inventory.
So how does your Project purchase or build hundreds of JLTVs in the 90s, when no one is using them? And it is a secret from the Government and the Public?


And canon makes no sense here*. Why waste resources building equipment that will never be used when you have a rough estimate of when the war happens? Build training mockups, build the actual vehicles later. The whole update plan is absurd. They can build freeze tubes and fusion reactors, but they can't build an MPV their first time around?? They don’t have such an estimate because the circumstance that can be the War are always evolving. They know it is going to happen but, the date still catches them unprepared. That is why there is bolt holes and caches from the 50s (Legacy, 4th) and the 60s and 70s (3rd).
I've never had this problem. I've always been able to get the characters out of the vehicles if I needed them out, and have always tried to give them realistic options and consequences of their behaviors, and if they didn't get it after a few tries I don't think I would keep going with that campaign. Not every group of players get every game, and if they really aren't getting it by the third session then this is not the game for them! Meh, I just couldn’t get them out of adventurer mode into builder/defender/preserver. Different mind set developed in other game systems.
*: Or any other places, either. TMP was, IMO, a great idea, but it was poorly executed. More than any other game, this system and story leave me scratching my head. It exists solely as a puzzle, not for realism, and the problem with that is that puzzles are notoriously hard to expand on if they don't make sense! It was written in the 70s when the only others was Aftermath and Gammaworld……. It is great for one shots and has rules and background enough for playing at GenCon and DragonCon. Who knows where is could have gone if the popularity and fan base had been larger.

[kato13]

The Morrow Project is hundreds of personnel at best. Prime Base is the largest with only 250, and Combined Group Seattle is 79 persons for a metropolitan area which could have 100,000 survivors.


Does that 250 number come from anywhere specific.

There are said to be 100 stations for personnel in the communications intercept suite alone.

I always assumed Prime had well over 1000 people. Maybe even 3000 or more.

[ArmySGT.]

Does that 250 number come from anywhere specific.

There are said to be 100 stations for personnel in the communications intercept suite alone.

I always assumed Prime had well over 1000 people. Maybe even 3000 or more.

I will look at the text of the module but, I would swear the maximum population was 500 and it was undermanned when the war started.

[kato13]

I will look at the text of the module but, I would swear the maximum population was 500 and it was undermanned when the war started.

I just looked at the bedroom count and it is only 183.
Edit
Ok i found more details

From the numbers given above it is possible to arrive at a figure for the total number of personnel the Base was intended to accomodate. The four residential Levels actually in use had space for 250 active and between 107 (optimal) and 214 (maximum) dependents. The grand total for the four Levels comes out to
either 357 (optimal) or 464 (maximum).

The three dormant Levels were nearly as large. There was room there for 198 actives and between 88 (optimal) and 176 (maximum) dependents for a total of 286 to 374 personnel of both classes.

Total Base capacity works of to 448 actives, and between 195 to 390 dependents. The maximum capacity of both clases is thus 838.

In point of fact, the lower or dormant residential Levels were never used, The Base entered the War with 247 active and 160
dependents. There were 407 people living in Prime Base when the War began.


I got my 1000 number from estimating staffing numbers and when I added families (which the module explicitly states are there) I thought it needed to support up to 3000. Communications alone had 200 stations, fire suppression says there are 4 members on duty at all time (needs 15 personnel to do that).

If they really had those numbers why in the world would they send anyone out in to the wild when they are so ridiculously understaffed. (This really belongs in the other thread about Prime's failure but it came to me here)

[ArmySGT.]

I just looked at the bedroom count and it is only 183.

This makes no sense to me. I got my 1000 number from estimating staffing numbers and when I added families (which the module explicitly states are there) I thought it needed to support up to 3000.

From PF 08 page 61.
In point of fact, the lower or dormant residential Levels were
never used, The Base entered the War with 247 active and 160
dependents. There were 407 people living in Prime Base when
the War began.

[kato13]

From PF 08 page 61.
In point of fact, the lower or dormant residential Levels were
never used, The Base entered the War with 247 active and 160
dependents. There were 407 people living in Prime Base when
the War began.

Yeah I found it (see my edit above). I think i bailed on the that part of the module before getting to that point when I found the maps so frustratingly small.

[ArmySGT.]

Yeah I found it (see my edit above). I think i bailed on the that part of the module before getting to that point when I found the maps so frustratingly small.

I have scanned mine..... I can blow them up using paint.net or adobe image ready to make them easier to read.

[.45cultist]

Actually the F550 and Humvees use more individual commercial componants that are shared by several products. There are a lot of large fords with box or stake beds, the generic Humvee uses quite a bit of common 3/4 to 1 ton parts. Any Humvees that received special performance upgrades, not so much. One such upgrade replaced the DANA axles with carbon composite versions as an example, some poor tech was sent to Iraq to supervise the work. My point is some stuff is common, others should be cached or in a regional depot.

[cosmicfish]

Yes, you can. In what quantity? How do you predict wear in a post apocalypse? How do you plan to position spares, when you cannot predict what is destroyed by Soviet ICBMs?
First, the inability to be exact or even accurate does not mean you don't make an estimate. Second, you have control over your own stores, you don't have control over what survives on the surface, nor over what happens to those parts in the 5 years you're sleeping in the tubes.

On pg 12, 3rd edition, it indicates an expectation that civilian vehicles and weapons will be largely nonfunctional because of a lack of parts and an inability to manufacture new ones... this flies in the face of the "we'll find parts" argument.

Making them cross compatible with commercial systems fits with the plan to assist lawful civilian government.
Only if you intend to turn MPV's over to civilian government.

The Project has a lot of resources but, doesn’t have anywhere close to the number of personnel required. It was essential to the Project to aid the survivors but, get the survivors working and assisting in their own recovery. The Morrow Project is hundreds of personnel at best. Prime Base is the largest with only 250, and Combined Group Seattle is 79 persons for a metropolitan area which could have 100,000 survivors.
I know this was addressed by someone already, but unless there is some reason to believe that Seattle was either over or under represented in assignment of teams, TMP should have field personnel in the low tens of thousands, NOT counting any assets not assigned at the "group" level.

No, they are not. Purpose built electric vehicles in some cases, which is part of why they are ridiculously expensive…. Each part is custom and particular to them.

An MPV is a engine conversion only….. the drive affects the transmission, then the differentials, then the drivetrain, then the hubs if it has them. That way you retain the offroad performance. It is only an engine swap.
Do you keep the exhaust system? Of course not! Why keep something that serves zero purpose and is dead weight? The transmission is even worse because it is not only useless but adds a point of failure in your drivetrain! You need the differentials and hubs, they serve a purpose in every vehicle, but with an electric motor you could literally replace the transmission with a straight rod and be far better off. And if you can build custom reactors and motors, that rod should be trivially easy.

It is when you have to manufacture or purchase in complete secrecy and completely off books. Hiding and extra 20 transmissions in a fleet purchase of 100 or 1000 is far easier than 20 transmissions that fit nothing in your inventory.
My comment about seats and lighting is that you can make do with stock, or commercial, or whatever, because that equipment is not only not mission critical, the way they interface with the rest of the vehicle gives you lots of latitude in field repairs.

In conversion you do. The drive train is still there, these are not electric motor hubs.
If you are doing the conversion in your garage, yes, you do. If you are doing it as a proof of concept for a few vehicles, sure. If you are doing it large-scale, no, you don't - it's a handicap that is too cheap and easy to remedy.

The manufacturer does it anyway. The engines, transmissions and most of the components are compatible with heavy hauling or construction equipment. Those Cummins and Continental diesels are very common out there on job sites. This, transmissions, alternators, shocks, springs, gears, exhaust systems…… When an RFP comes out that a defense manufacturer can’t just pull of the shelf to meet the specifications the manufacturer demands money and lets the government pay for the R&D. The manufacturer then uses that knowledge to improve their civilian line and market to those that can use them…………. Those big diesel pickups everywhere right now are using engines found in Humvees.
They're doing it for cost control, and only where they can still meet specifications. Often, they flow military to civilian as a way of spreading costs and also to provide an outlet for parts that don't meet milspec - just because the military thinks it inadequate doesn't mean that people won't buy the parts for less rigorous applications!

The Combined Groups were supposed to operate together…….. The only one out on a limb here realistically is Recon.
Sure... but they are still tremendously spread out, considering the treacherous nature of post-apocalypse travel and the lack of air support. While the teams are supposed to support each other, they aren't necessarily supposed to travel together, disregarding cases like linked MARS/Science teams (although even they have separate boltholes!). And if your vehicle goes down, rescue requires that there be a team near enough to help, able to reach the area (which might preclude SK-5 teams), and able to provide the military, mechanical, or transport assistance you need before you die. I consider that a big risk for teams, but as I said, not the biggest issue.

Cost…….. the Project has to buy a lot of vehicles and a lot of spares. You can have ten Strykers for $1.5 million apiece or you can have 150 of these. Do you sideline Project Members because you could not procure enough Strykers…… Strykers are big fat hippos that don’t do well in urban or dense forest terrain.
I still don't see any reason to believe that TMP was or should be cost constrained. Nor do I see how the V-150 is a superior choice.

Which is a GM choice for gameplay but, your average MP gamer is obsessive about detail and demands reasonable, plausible explanations for why, and how things are.
How about because sometimes, mechanics don't have your part in stock. Or how about because a ton of other F550's, operating under conditions they were never meant to handle, have used up all the parts you are looking for? Or how about because parts are so rare and valuable that they aren't giving them up for anything the team is able and willing to part with?

Actually look at 3rd again…… without fudging rolls of the dice, it isn’t that easy to be a veteran outside of MARS. The only veteran MP character I can think of without going throught modules with a comb is the leader of TN-7.
If we take the listed odds and apply them to CG Seattle, I get a total of 26 veterans, 14 with combat experience. That assumes 8 MARS (6 vets, 4 combat), 19 recon (10 vets, 5 combat), and 52 "other" (10 vets, 5 combat). That isn't that rare. 33% of CG Seattle are vets, and 18% have seen combat. I think they would have an idea what they were doing.

In some of the Canon materials Bruce is a brilliant financial investor and that is how he gets it started and brings the Council of Tomorrow together. There is only one Bruce and he has other things to do.
I don’t…… In the 3-5 year plan highways and roads are still going to be there. Only in the bombed out areas are you going to need heavier and there is little sane reason to venture in.
He doesn't have much else to do, and regardless he doesn't need to have a ton of information for Morrow Industries to be wallowing in money. Nor is that information (even the generalities) hard to transport. Heck, even if the universes are pretty different, commercially lucrative inventions should still transfer with high fidelity - in other words, if Morrow Industries has Apple's OS and Google's algorithms and Facebook's idea, they can make a killing.

Strykers and Humvees rely on mechanics organic to the unit operating them and larger maintenance unit in theater if not based out of the same locale……… Humvees break with the same or more regularity than anything on the street…… I would argue more so having operated heavy equipment….. A civilian company won’t buy parts from a shoddy manufacturer, the DoD is struck with whoever was the lowest bidder until bidding can open again. Seriously, where do you get this idea that Humvees are really robust? I drove and maintained M1025s and M1114s in the Army for 15 years……..It can be amazing how shitting the parts are.
And the vehicles referenced here rely on mechanics as well, and operate under far, far gentler expectations. Police specs are usually in-between civilian and military specs. And Morrow is not the DoD - they don't have to buy shoddy parts either, especially since they are more likely to be making them.

So how does your Project purchase or build hundreds of JLTVs in the 90s, when no one is using them? And it is a secret from the Government and the Public?
In my version (set a few years from now), they are building them in tandem with the official military vehicles - they wouldn't be secret. If I was setting the TMP in the 90's, then there would be extra Hummers being shipped around, which would be a heck of a lot less strange than a bunch of vehicles which have no business on US roads in the first place, like XR311's and V-150's.

They don’t have such an estimate because the circumstance that can be the War are always evolving. They know it is going to happen but, the date still catches them unprepared. That is why there is bolt holes and caches from the 50s (Legacy, 4th) and the 60s and 70s (3rd).
I don't recall where it said that the rough date of the war was unknown.

It was written in the 70s when the only others was Aftermath and Gammaworld……. It is great for one shots and has rules and background enough for playing at GenCon and DragonCon. Who knows where is could have gone if the popularity and fan base had been larger.
There are lots of reasons why the popularity was not high - a clunky system, a setting that didn't make a lot of sense to many people, etc. From what I have seen, the 4th edition does not really improve on this.

[ArmySGT.]

First, the inability to be exact or even accurate does not mean you don't make an estimate. Second, you have control over your own stores, you don't have control over what survives on the surface, nor over what happens to those parts in the 5 years you're sleeping in the tubes. True, to some extent. Heavy truck parts are not in common parts houses. You usually have to go to the dealer that specializes in heavy trucks and earthmoving equipment. If that is a corporate subsidiary that means it is a potential cache and/or the parts are in a supply system your team mechanic can reference.

More importantly it means there would have been mechanics and facilities around without electrical power miles from any nuclear target. The only threat to them is famine and plague.
On pg 12, 3rd edition, it indicates an expectation that civilian vehicles and weapons will be largely nonfunctional because of a lack of parts and an inability to manufacture new ones... this flies in the face of the "we'll find parts" argument. I interpret that as rough use and a lack of knowledge in how to maintain the equipment more than parts inavailable…… only 5% of the population is alive at War + one year roughly.
Only if you intend to turn MPV's over to civilian government.
Actually, I do….. the are police and fire models of the V-150, and I intend for Teams to release modified M151s and XR-311s.
I know this was addressed by someone already, but unless there is some reason to believe that Seattle was either over or under represented in assignment of teams, TMP should have field personnel in the low tens of thousands, NOT counting any assets not assigned at the "group" level. Just to hard to recruit people to walk away from their lives completely.

When you wake your home is gone, your family is dead, your friends are dead. You can however save civilization…….. That kind of altruism isn’t common. There are people who do extraordinary things like soldiers but, they do expect to come home to their family someday.
Do you keep the exhaust system? Of course not! Why keep something that serves zero purpose and is dead weight? The transmission is even worse because it is not only useless but adds a point of failure in your drivetrain! You need the differentials and hubs, they serve a purpose in every vehicle, but with an electric motor you could literally replace the transmission with a straight rod and be far better off. And if you can build custom reactors and motors, that rod should be trivially easy. For the 4x4, low gearing, and powering either axle.
My comment about seats and lighting is that you can make do with stock, or commercial, or whatever, because that equipment is not only not mission critical, the way they interface with the rest of the vehicle gives you lots of latitude in field repairs. ok, it wasn’t a good example for either of us. Conceded.



If you are doing the conversion in your garage, yes, you do. If you are doing it as a proof of concept for a few vehicles, sure. If you are doing it large-scale, no, you don't - it's a handicap that is too cheap and easy to remedy. You still need it for the transfer case and 4x4; plus, to take advantage of the power ranges, such as Low Low gear .
They're doing it for cost control, and only where they can still meet specifications. Often, they flow military to civilian as a way of spreading costs and also to provide an outlet for parts that don't meet milspec - just because the military thinks it inadequate doesn't mean that people won't buy the parts for less rigorous applications! I think we agree here.
Sure... but they are still tremendously spread out, considering the treacherous nature of post-apocalypse travel and the lack of air support. While the teams are supposed to support each other, they aren't necessarily supposed to travel together, disregarding cases like linked MARS/Science teams (although even they have separate boltholes!). And if your vehicle goes down, rescue requires that there be a team near enough to help, able to reach the area (which might preclude SK-5 teams), and able to provide the military, mechanical, or transport assistance you need before you die. I consider that a big risk for teams, but as I said, not the biggest issue. The impression I get from Desert Search is that everyone meets up, then become two vehicle teams at a minimum.
I still don't see any reason to believe that TMP was or should be cost constrained. Nor do I see how the V-150 is a superior choice. Mostly, it is the cost effective choice….. I can be built using equipment and workers already on hand, plus new production can be explained away as repair parts for Singapore, Egypt, and U.S. police departments.

It is also cost effective when you need to field several hundred, have dozens for spares too.
How about because sometimes, mechanics don't have your part in stock. Or how about because a ton of other F550's, operating under conditions they were never meant to handle, have used up all the parts you are looking for? Or how about because parts are so rare and valuable that they aren't giving them up for anything the team is able and willing to part with? That is called and attack of life. Then you hunker down and wait for the part or parts to be delivered from the nearest base by some means. Sounds like a good chance to role play without the vehicles.
If we take the listed odds and apply them to CG Seattle, I get a total of 26 veterans, 14 with combat experience. That assumes 8 MARS (6 vets, 4 combat), 19 recon (10 vets, 5 combat), and 52 "other" (10 vets, 5 combat). That isn't that rare. 33% of CG Seattle are vets, and 18% have seen combat. I think they would have an idea what they were doing. According to “Fall Back” MARS is 25% military veterans and 75% law enforcement veterans…. Some being both.
That also has to take into account if their military experience as a veteran translates to the mission…….. A Navy veteran with experience as a signals guy on a AWACS may be no help at all in playing a ground attack…… except that he/she is more likely to keep their cool and follow through.
He doesn't have much else to do, and regardless he doesn't need to have a ton of information for Morrow Industries to be wallowing in money. Nor is that information (even the generalities) hard to transport. Heck, even if the universes are pretty different, commercially lucrative inventions should still transfer with high fidelity - in other words, if Morrow Industries has Apple's OS and Google's algorithms and Facebook's idea, they can make a killing. Not all of it can be spent on the Project…….. Morrow Industries still has to spend billions and trillions on the legitimate business to maintain the deception.
And the vehicles referenced here rely on mechanics as well, and operate under far, far gentler expectations. Police specs are usually in-between civilian and military specs. And Morrow is not the DoD - they don't have to buy shoddy parts either, especially since they are more likely to be making them. The Project is funded and staffed by civilians, as a purely civilian enterprise outside of government oversight or cooperation……. I expect a corporate mentality and not a military one…….. logistics more akin to Fedex than DoD.
Besides, no one has post apocalypse experience…….. it is all an educated guess.
In my version (set a few years from now), they are building them in tandem with the official military vehicles - they wouldn't be secret. If I was setting the TMP in the 90's, then there would be extra Hummers being shipped around, which would be a heck of a lot less strange than a bunch of vehicles which have no business on US roads in the first place, like XR311's and V-150's. I typically play 3rd with the 89 war date as a preference…. If I was moving the date back then, I would add Humvees and some other things…… but, I would keep the V-150S….. those are still in service overseas.
I don't recall where it said that the rough date of the war was unknown. 19 November, 1989 catches everyone by surprise even Prime Base…… Literally Bruce knows…… Morrow Project materials are on the CD with the game setting “Rogue 417” by Tri Tac games. It is a short story and worth the read for 3rd edition fans. Bruce seems to spend the day of the War saying good bye to the old world.
There are lots of reasons why the popularity was not high - a clunky system, a setting that didn't make a lot of sense to many people, etc. From what I have seen, the 4th edition does not really improve on this. I am not going to vent my frustrations about the 4th here….. See the economics thread for that. There was a deluge of games of all sorts and Morrow Project wasn’t as fancy as some of the others. It really is a niche player game though.

[cosmicfish]

More importantly it means there would have been mechanics and facilities around without electrical power miles from any nuclear target. The only threat to them is famine and plague.
And use/hoarding by all the people needing vehicles in a system where infrastructure has collapsed. I just don't think you can plan on no one else wanting what you absolutely need.

I interpret that as rough use and a lack of knowledge in how to maintain the equipment more than parts inavailable…… only 5% of the population is alive at War + one year roughly.
I don't see why only useless people would survive. Indeed, I think the likely targeting of the attacks would tend to favor many blue collar professions, including mechanics!

Actually, I do….. the are police and fire models of the V-150, and I intend for Teams to release modified M151s and XR-311s.
First, those vehicles can't represent more than a fraction of the inventory. Second, when you release those vehicles, whatever civilian parts survived are no longer going to be available to the Project at all, and if you gained control of the entire inventory then you are putting yourself in a difficult position with the populace.

Just to hard to recruit people to walk away from their lives completely.
Sure, but you don't have to recruit that many, all things considered. And "to save the country and then the planet" helps, as does "you get to survive nuclear war instead of being a victim". There are a lot of people out there with no family to lose and no friends they can't leave. Recruit a thousand a year out of the millions available and you have a decently-staffed Project.

Also remember that there may well be families and friends in the Project! You may be in a MARS team, your best friend may be in a Recon team, and your dad might be assigned to a supply base somewhere.

You still need it for the transfer case and 4x4; plus, to take advantage of the power ranges, such as Low Low gear .
Addressed this in another thread.

The impression I get from Desert Search is that everyone meets up, then become two vehicle teams at a minimum.
Then why not have them start that way? I can see that being a tactic of convenience, but operationally it will only make sense for a few teams.

Mostly, it is the cost effective choice….. I can be built using equipment and workers already on hand, plus new production can be explained away as repair parts for Singapore, Egypt, and U.S. police departments.

It is also cost effective when you need to field several hundred, have dozens for spares too.
Except for cost, all of that works for nearly any vehicle you can think of. It's not like customs guys do anything more than compare part and serial numbers against manifests.

That is called and attack of life. Then you hunker down and wait for the part or parts to be delivered from the nearest base by some means. Sounds like a good chance to role play without the vehicles.
Exactly my point.

According to “Fall Back” MARS is 25% military veterans and 75% law enforcement veterans…. Some being both.
Can't comment on Fall Back, as I do not own it - does it say anything about non-MARS personnel? I don't see why the teams would have a lower proportion of military veterans than the 3ed core rules provide - they would certainly be a focus of recruiting and would probably be more likely than average to accept.

Regardless, the Project has to be built around using the experts that it has. Whether there are 26 veterans in CG Seattle or 6, the whole focus of the Project is to maximize the use of the skills of the teams, I don't see why the vets (however many there are) would not be driving the combat decisions just as I would expect the doctors to be driving the medical planning.

Not all of it can be spent on the Project…….. Morrow Industries still has to spend billions and trillions on the legitimate business to maintain the deception.
Sure, but with the smallest of inputs from Morrow, they could trim a few percent off of their profits and still have the Project awash in cash. If the average Morrow / Council of Tomorrow industry has equivalent 2014 income of $5 billion (smaller than Ford Motor Company), then trimming off 5% of that profit for each of 9 companies for two decades yields $45 billion dollars while still "maintaining the deception"... and assuming nothing from Morrow whatsoever, just assuming that they take 5% off their corporate profits and put them towards the Project. Project funding could be 10-100x larger with Morrow playing even a minor role.

The Project is funded and staffed by civilians, as a purely civilian enterprise outside of government oversight or cooperation……. I expect a corporate mentality and not a military one…….. logistics more akin to Fedex than DoD.
Logistics, sure... but that has nothing to do with quality control! I've worked for a number of manufacturing concerns, and you design the specification for the mission (whatever it is), and you build and test to that specification. There are shoddy manufacturers, sure, but I see no reason why the Project would use them, much less own them!

Besides, no one has post apocalypse experience…….. it is all an educated guess.
All the more reason to be conservative, maintain large and quality stores.

19 November, 1989 catches everyone by surprise even Prime Base…… Literally Bruce knows…… Morrow Project materials are on the CD with the game setting “Rogue 417” by Tri Tac games. It is a short story and worth the read for 3rd edition fans. Bruce seems to spend the day of the War saying good bye to the old world.
The date catches everyone by surprise, but they should have known within a year or two when it would happen, otherwise planning would be absurd. Indeed, a date of the war (even rough) would be perhaps the single most important bit of information Morrow could have provided.

[ArmySGT.]

Hot and Sexy + all Civilian.

1IHxNEDOO_U

[ArmySGT.]

They love to say Monococque like every soccer mom and joe bob uses this daily.

So I looked it up to be sure I knew what this mean.

Ok, it literally means single shell. In armor parlance, this means an armored hull to which components are attached versus a hull or frame to which armor is added as part of the components.

Monocoque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque)

[cosmicfish]

I like it. Unlike the last offering, this is being marketed towards a military market which suggests that it is better suited to the Morrow mission. The only problem I would have with this beasty would be coming up with a cover story for why you are transporting hundreds or thousands of these around the US pre-war.

[nuke11]

If you are looking at something like that, I'd be more inclined to look at one of the following;

Oshkosh Defense : L-ATV or M-ATV Extended family
Navistar Defence : MXT family
AM General : BRV-O (more information required, but an interesting vehicle)

[cosmicfish]

Oshkosh Defense : L-ATV or M-ATV Extended family
AM General : BRV-O (more information required, but an interesting vehicle)
These are the other two contestants in the JLTV competition - I proposed Lockheed's candidate earlier. They all suffer from a dearth of available information (as they are not yet in full-scale production) and from the issue of not being currently available.

Navistar Defence : MXT family
Another perfectly reasonable choice, but I think a bit bigger than the rest. I think you would need to an actual trade study to pick the best option.

[kato13]

Moved some of the posts from here to
How dark is the future of the Morrow Project (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=4668&page=3)
as we had drifted from to original topic of vehicles.

[ArmySGT.]

The fact that it kinda looks like a cousin of Batman's Tumbler doesn't hurt either. :)
http://the-eyeontheworld.blogspot.com/2014/06/israel-reveals-its-latest-mine.html

[cosmicfish]

The fact that it kinda looks like a cousin of Batman's Tumbler doesn't hurt either. :)
http://the-eyeontheworld.blogspot.com/2014/06/israel-reveals-its-latest-mine.html
All right, I have to admit: that's pretty badass. Forget my earlier suggestion for the JLTV, this looks pretty solid for TMP. We may disagree on staffing levels, but I like this little beastie.

[RandyT0001]

The fact that it kinda looks like a cousin of Batman's Tumbler doesn't hurt either. :)
http://the-eyeontheworld.blogspot.com/2014/06/israel-reveals-its-latest-mine.html

Needs to be a 6x6. As a 4x4, disabling one tire stops the vehicle. And these days being armored vs 'anti-material' rifles, M2, Kord 12.7, etc. is desirable.

[ArmySGT.]

Needs to be a 6x6. As a 4x4, disabling one tire stops the vehicle. And these days being armored vs 'anti-material' rifles, M2, Kord 12.7, etc. is desirable.

All APCs and scouts have run flat tire (aluminum inner ring) to drive on in an emergency, most have a central tire inflation system capable of maintaining two tires at full capacity with two hits each. Most units are carrying a spare, for MPs this meant one spare mounted on a rim per squad on each mission.

On LAV IIIs (Stryker for one) have protection to 14.5, and this is with add on.

All APCs are proofed against 7.62N/7.62Bloc armor piercing, antipersonnel mines, and 155mm shell splinters with detonation at more than 50 meters. 1980s and newer will save the crew but loose the vehicle to an anti armor mine.

I don't give PCs a 6x6 or an 8x8. I want them lean and hungry so they will get out of the vehicle. Don't need a winnebago to be effective.

[ArmySGT.]

Look at this..... The V-150 lives on in a 21st century Canadian version.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/vehicles/2015/06/09/canada-textron-armored-vehicle-mobility-solved-army/28729137/

[cosmicfish]

http://oshkoshdefense.com/jltv/

I missed the announcement, but apparently these are going into production with an initial run of 17,000 units.

[ArmySGT.]

Here is the Brochure from the linked page. Personally, I say wait five years, let the flaws from the first generation stuff get rectified. The contractors that deal mostly with SOCOM (with their limitless budget) will be turning out the better C2 models with better radio suites anyway.

[cosmicfish]

Here is the Brochure from the linked page. Personally, I say wait five years, let the flaws from the first generation stuff get rectified. The contractors that deal mostly with SOCOM (with their limitless budget) will be turning out the better C2 models with better radio suites anyway.
Agreed - as I have mentioned in this and other threads, the Project has too many risks already to make it worse with unproven equipment. That having been said, the last few times I ran TMP I shifted everything a few years into the future from "today" and assumed that the Project was ahead of the curve a bit. If I was running a new game NOW I would consider something like this over the XR311 or the Commando Ranger, with the war coming in the 2018 timeframe and with the Project having planned all along to finalize their equipment stores about a year beforehand.

[ArmySGT.]

http://oshkoshdefense.com/jltv/

I missed the announcement, but apparently these are going into production with an initial run of 17,000 units.

With the JLTV coming out, that means the surplus market is going to be flooded with every model of HMMWV. All the more likely that these would go into caches and depots for Project use. Tons of parts too. So when the DoD goes onto something new the Project quietly scoops up the surplus.

[cosmicfish]

With the JLTV coming out, that means the surplus market is going to be flooded with every model of HMMWV. All the more likely that these would go into caches and depots for Project use. Tons of parts too. So when the DoD goes onto something new the Project quietly scoops up the surplus.
Sounds reasonable, but remember the way the military flows a lot of surplus to the Guard and/or police units - there will be a lot of competition. One thing I always considered was that the Project was buying some things and manufacturing some others, and that the state-of-the-art stuff was going to the "point" teams while the surplus purchases were going to the support teams and bases that were less likely to see combat.

So if I was setting the last gear up for a few years from now, I might put some JLTV's slipped quietly off the production line into the hands of MARS and Recon, and give the Ag and Psych teams surplus hummers.

[tsofian]

I don't have the new version yet, just the old version... but I think Science-One was the only vehicle I kept the last time I played. The rest are dated and/or impractical and/or conspicuous compared to what else they could do. The Science-One I kept because, being original it could be presumed to be cutting edge, because there were no other mobile science labs I could find, and because I couldn't think of anything better!

I use the MGM-134 mobile launcher as my Science Rover chassis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM-134_Midgetman

http://www.hill.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=5717

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/icbm/hml_02.jpg&imgrefurl=http://fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/icbm/sicbm.htm&h=450&w=860&tbnid=o25eEBhbS72vmM:&docid=aVcYjsWdcULEBM&ei=U73xVbD0Ncukep-chIgN&tbm=isch&ved=0CD8QMygYMBhqFQoTCPDppLn-7McCFUuSHgodHw4B0Q

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCN20itz-7McCFcuigAodKKcB7w&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffas.org%2Fnuke%2Fguide%2Fusa%2Fic bm%2Fsicbm.htm&psig=AFQjCNHSbBMRr3abqbzwBYmYYVh68X2kSA&ust=1441992404124436

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T80V5rbfZ6o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy4J-ZZ7MPo

I change the trailer to lab space and give a walk through from cab to trailer. I also make the trailer the expandable type where the walls fold down into a larger volume space like an RV

[cosmicfish]

I would probably use this as the base instead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Expanded_Mobility_Tactical_Truck

A little more modern, a little more rugged, etc. Personal preference, really. But I would probably still build from scratch for Science 1, I think it would be worthwhile.

[tsofian]

I don't think the Hemmet is more rugged than the Hardened Mobile Launcher. Hemmets aren't designed to survive the sorts of blast over pressure the HML was

[tsofian]

Here are pics of the Hard Mobile Launcher

http://i.imgur.com/fV8FcfW.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4083/5222488117_7cdafd6709_z.jpg

http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/5381/return-of-the-hard-mobile-launcher

http://www.hill.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/601010-F-0000H-012.jpg

[cosmicfish]

I don't think the Hemmet is more rugged than the Hardened Mobile Launcher. Hemmets aren't designed to survive the sorts of blast over pressure the HML was
So why don't we design bombers to imitate the ruggedness of the Space Shuttle? Which was killed by a piece of frozen foam?

From what I can find (in particular the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists), the HML was designed to survive specific hazards and operate only on military bases and very flat areas. I don't think it was able to operate anywhere that was not pretty flat and gentle, and not especially quickly either. And while it could survive a high-pressure wave it was not seemingly intended to survive ground combat - I can find no reference to any protection against anything other than a somewhat distant nuclear weapon, and that is not very good protection against anything else.

In short, while it is an interesting vehicle, it was designed for a very specialized mission that does not line up well with Project requirements. You could up-armor it, but there is nothing to be done about the terrible mobility.

[tsofian]

The Hemmet is a truck, to the best of my recollection it doesn't have any armor at all. It is reasonably mobile, for a truck, but once you load it down with a whole lot of armor and mission required equipment and such it is going to have mobility issues as well

[cosmicfish]

The Hemmet is a truck, to the best of my recollection it doesn't have any armor at all. It is reasonably mobile, for a truck, but once you load it down with a whole lot of armor and mission required equipment and such it is going to have mobility issues as well
No, it doesn't have any armor, and adding some will impair it a bit, depending on how much it weighs compared to the normal cargo load. But it is designed to go anywhere the army goes, and that means it can handle most terrains and situations. The prototype HML's were designed to operate on bases and in flatlands, and there are not many places in the US where you can drag a hundred foot trailer or that can accommodate such a low ground clearance, both of which were design requirements for launching the missiles and surviving a nearby nuke strike.

The HML is cool, but it is a very specialized vehicle designed for a very narrow mission, and outside that mission it is completely impractical.

[ArmySGT.]

The Hemmet is a truck, to the best of my recollection it doesn't have any armor at all. It is reasonably mobile, for a truck, but once you load it down with a whole lot of armor and mission required equipment and such it is going to have mobility issues as well

No, it doesn't have any armor, and adding some will impair it a bit, depending on how much it weighs compared to the normal cargo load. But it is designed to go anywhere the army goes, and that means it can handle most terrains and situations. The prototype HML's were designed to operate on bases and in flatlands, and there are not many places in the US where you can drag a hundred foot trailer or that can accommodate such a low ground clearance, both of which were design requirements for launching the missiles and surviving a nearby nuke strike.

The HML is cool, but it is a very specialized vehicle designed for a very narrow mission, and outside that mission it is completely impractical.

There is a uparmor kit for the Hemmet since 2005. This doesn't affect the carrying capacity much, it is a 10 ton truck.

[tsofian]

I thought the armor kit effected the center of gravity badly and lead to the vehicle becoming even more role prone that it was originally (Which I don't think was nearly as bad at Hummers). I never drove a Hemmet, but did drive the BIDS version of the Hummer, which had a huge laboratory box on the back and those things were bears.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Expanded_Mobility_Tactical_Truck

I think a lab version of the Hemmet is going to have some issues. The vehicle is a ten ton truck but I think the armor kit only covers the cab, not the payload area. I have seen some gun trucks that have armor on the payload areas but that basically takes up the whole weight of the payload and doesn't leave much for anything else.

In adddition the Hemmet isn't NBC sealed. The HML is all about surviving in a post strike environment. It will certainly have a harder time climbing hills but a lot depends upon the trailer. The HML trailer is designed to house, protect from a nearby nuclear strike and then launch a 30,000 pound ICBM.

With either the Hemmet or the HML the payload will need to be fully custom. I think that a lab doesn't need to be as long or as heavy as the missile trailer was.

YMMV

[ArmySGT.]

Ah but, Hemmets sport the palletized loading system.

Well later A4 models do.

3498

[cosmicfish]

I think a lab version of the Hemmet is going to have some issues. The vehicle is a ten ton truck but I think the armor kit only covers the cab, not the payload area. I have seen some gun trucks that have armor on the payload areas but that basically takes up the whole weight of the payload and doesn't leave much for anything else.
Depending on the level of armor you are looking for, you can fit a lot on the payload and still have room for a lot of equipment. But this remains one of the reasons I think Science One is a custom vehicle.

In adddition the Hemmet isn't NBC sealed. The HML is all about surviving in a post strike environment. It will certainly have a harder time climbing hills but a lot depends upon the trailer. The HML trailer is designed to house, protect from a nearby nuclear strike and then launch a 30,000 pound ICBM.
You can modify ANYTHING to be NBC sealed. But the HML will not "have a harder time climbing hills", it will be completely unable to do so, or to cross any kind of rough terrain - i.e., the vast majority of the post-apocalyptic landscape. It was designed to operate off-road only in the sense that wide flat plains and deserts can be considered "off-road".

[tsofian]

So why don't we design bombers to imitate the ruggedness of the Space Shuttle? Which was killed by a piece of frozen foam?

From what I can find (in particular the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists), the HML was designed to survive specific hazards and operate only on military bases and very flat areas.

The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists is an interesting and very biased source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_of_the_Atomic_Scientists The group that publishes it is against all nuclear weapons as well as most other nuclear technology and other emerging technologies as well. The likelihood of them publishing a favorable report on any piece of nuclear hardware is fairly remote. Their goal is to discredit all nuclear weapons programs and the use of propaganda is one way they attempt to sway public opinion

Just as a data point the Heavy Expanded Mobility Tactical Truck (HEMTT) has a 515 Hp power plant, eight wheel drive and a total all up weight with the B armor kit of 109.000 pounds. The HML has 1,200 horses and also eight wheel drive and an all up weight of 239,000 pounds or 211 pounds per horse power for the HEMTT and 115 pounds per horse power for the HML. I would say that while towing a ICBM the HML is probably pretty limited but I can't see why the tractor alone would be less mobile than a HEMTT.

Also sealing a vehicle against NBC threats requires a lot of work. The system must not only be sealed but it must also be equipped with an air cleaning and handling system that will ensure that contaminants are filtered out and the air is usually at overpressure to assist in keeping the bad stuff on the outside.

[cosmicfish]

The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists is an interesting and very biased source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_of_the_Atomic_Scientists The group that publishes it is against all nuclear weapons as well as most other nuclear technology and other emerging technologies as well. The likelihood of them publishing a favorable report on any piece of nuclear hardware is fairly remote. Their goal is to discredit all nuclear weapons programs and the use of propaganda is one way they attempt to sway public opinion
If you like there are also GAO and DoD reports that mention not only the difficulty in finding areas capable of supporting the HML's operations but also the expense of adding roads for them to operate on. Everything in my engineering training and experience, and everything I see about this vehicle combine to tell me that this vehicle was not ever intended to be any more than nominally off-road, and that it would be unable to operate in any but a small fraction of the post-apocalyptic US.

Remember, the challenge for this technology was getting something that would haul around the missile at all. One of the first things sacrificed was "go anywhere" mobility. They didn't need that, this was always intended to operate in the same kinds of places missiles were already based, and those places by and large had lots of flat land and often roads.

Just as a data point the Heavy Expanded Mobility Tactical Truck (HEMTT) has a 515 Hp power plant, eight wheel drive and a total all up weight with the B armor kit of 109.000 pounds. The HML has 1,200 horses and also eight wheel drive and an all up weight of 239,000 pounds or 211 pounds per horse power for the HEMTT and 115 pounds per horse power for the HML. I would say that while towing a ICBM the HML is probably pretty limited but I can't see why the tractor alone would be less mobile than a HEMTT.
Because power is not nearly the only factor in off-road maneuverability. Among many others there is also ground clearance, the HML's biggest problem. Looking at pictures it looks like it has less than 8" of ground clearance, and in a vehicle as long and as wide as this thing even hard, gentle terrain will hit the breakover angle while softer or slightly rougher terrain will just grind it to a halt. Plus, the thing is so danged wide.

Also sealing a vehicle against NBC threats requires a lot of work. The system must not only be sealed but it must also be equipped with an air cleaning and handling system that will ensure that contaminants are filtered out and the air is usually at overpressure to assist in keeping the bad stuff on the outside.
And yet every Morrow vehicle already has NBC systems that meet the exact same standard that you would need for Science One. If the SK-25 can meet the spec, then it is not that hard to achieve.

[tsofian]

Can you link to those sources? I'd like to have them for my reference. Thanks!

The biggest issue might be the trailer. The MP trailer will be a home-brew design for certain, but it could certainly be much shorter and weigh less then the missile transporter/erector/launcher. The tractor itself, with a different trailer may well have much better mobility

[cosmicfish]

Can you link to those sources? I'd like to have them for my reference. Thanks!
Here are a few I could recover:

http://www.gao.gov/assets/150/142998.pdf
http://digitalcollections.library.cmu.edu/awweb/awarchive?type=file&item=712384

Remember that details on this kind of thing are not going to be found on unclassified sites even now.

The biggest issue might be the trailer. The MP trailer will be a home-brew design for certain, but it could certainly be much shorter and weigh less then the missile transporter/erector/launcher. The tractor itself, with a different trailer may well have much better mobility
There is no doubt that the trailer is the worst part, but even for the prime mover by itself significant improvements in off-road capability would have rendered it much more vulnerable to the nuclear blast it was designed to survive. Even looking at the pictures the prototypes look like they would have trouble clearing a curb.

[tsofian]

Those are interesting sources and the report to Congress mentions that in 1985 there was a recommendation that the off road mobility be improved. 1985 was early in the program.

If you look at the videos you can see that the machines had no trouble getting up a curb.

[tsofian]

Also the design specification was to survive and remain operations after being hit by a 30 PSI shock wave. It appears that the vehicles were capable of meeting this requirement.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docket/archive/pdfs/NIOSH-125/125-ExplosionsandRefugeChambers.pdf

30 PSI is enough to destroy reinforced concrete structures. To survive this blast overpressure the vehicle will also need to be able to survive being struck by large high velocity fragments and debris. I wonder ballistic energy the vehicle could survive would be. I doubt it would be the Science Rover's 1100 but I would hazard a guess it will stop most if not all 7.62mm rounds.

[cosmicfish]

Those are interesting sources and the report to Congress mentions that in 1985 there was a recommendation that the off road mobility be improved. 1985 was early in the program.
1985 was not that early in the program, and it only lasted a few more years during which no more prototypes were ever produced. The fact that better off-road mobility was recommended does not mean that it was ever achieved, or even that it could be achieved while still meeting the other program requirements. I've worked on a number of programs where the contracting officers had a fundamental misunderstanding of the laws of physics, and asked for things that were blatantly, often hilariously impossible.

If you look at the videos you can see that the machines had no trouble getting up a curb.
I was being sarcastic. Although the basic geometry of the vehicles does look horrible for off-road.

[cosmicfish]

Also the design specification was to survive and remain operations after being hit by a 30 PSI shock wave. It appears that the vehicles were capable of meeting this requirement.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docket/archive/pdfs/NIOSH-125/125-ExplosionsandRefugeChambers.pdf

30 PSI is enough to destroy reinforced concrete structures. To survive this blast overpressure the vehicle will also need to be able to survive being struck by large high velocity fragments and debris. I wonder ballistic energy the vehicle could survive would be. I doubt it would be the Science Rover's 1100 but I would hazard a guess it will stop most if not all 7.62mm rounds.
30 PSI is all of 2 atmospheres of pressure. That is a tremendous force applied over a wide area but is still orders of magnitude less than the pressure of a bullet impacts which are measured in hundreds of PSI (for small, soft rounds) to thousands of PSI (for larger, harder rounds). And while in practice it may have needed to survive debris in the development stage it would not have been held to that standard, and mobility requirements may have prevented it from ever reaching that standard.

Look, if you want to handwave a solution, that's fine. But I see no justification for saying that a poorly-documented, proof-of-concept prototype is a viable solution for any practical role. It was designed to explore a concept and see if it was possible, and when you are working that kind of program you abandon anything not absolutely essential to the prime requirements so that you can see if those requirements can be met at all. You don't worry about bullet-resistance because this vehicle was never meant to be within a thousand miles of anyone who might shoot at it. You don't worry about real off-road capability because driving a hundred ton vehicle over gentle grass while still being able to turn into a tornado shelter is hard enough without giving it the vertical clearance it would need to do what other military vehicles do.

It looks cool. So does a monster truck. That doesn't mean that either would really have much use in a general military capacity.

[tsofian]

The project had to acquire vehicles. There are several paths they can use to do so. They can buy new military gear. They can buy obsolete military gear. They can do a design build of their own stuff. They could also buy prototypes and refurbish them. Each has its own merits and pitfalls and looking through the published canon (which is always dangerous and often contradictory) the publishers over the years have done a little bit of each

Scratch Designs
MARS-1
Science Rover
Gyroscout
The three Hovercraft from Lonestar
HAMM Suit

Experimental or semi experimental
SK-5 (a total of 14 of these were built including the SR.N5 version built in the UK, so two more than the AH-56A)-These could be included as obsolete or no longer in service instead since the US Military use of the PACV version went out of service in the 1970s
XR-311 I thought Israel had bought a small production run of these but I can't find the reference any longer, It seems the US bought about a dozen for trials.
FACME engineering equipment

In production open market vehicles
CG Commando
CG Ranger
CG Scout

Personally I did the same. I don't see taking a prototype and saying "in this fictional universe it actually worked as designed" being any more handwavium than "The Project did a design build of some limited production run equipment". In the later case the Project has to do all the development from building the prototype.

I have some very specific reasons why I use existing vehicles in preference to stand alone Project only ones. One is I can get things like the videos that show machines in operation. I can often get drawings and sometimes even manuals to hand to the players. I can almost always get a few decent pictures. All these help the players visualize their equipment. If the vehicles are stand alone it requires a lot more work, although I am certainly willing to do so. The St. Louis MP crew of days gone by did full manuals for the Science Rover, the three hovers from Lonestar (very heavily modified) and several other vehicles and load outs.

So looking through the canon it doesn't seem that the originators were adverse to using prototypes, production machines or design builds depending on what was available.

[ArmySGT.]

So why not use the HML as what it was intended for? A missile carrier. Instead of a Midgetman ICBM, load it with a Anti Ballistic Missile.

That is very Project. At this time (and currently) the U.S. under the START treaties cannot build ground based ABMs (Naval is a loop hole).

So the Project could deploy a limited number of these to protect a major reconstruction effort.

[tsofian]

An Anti Missile Missile needs a huge infrastructure of sensors and computers. Its a huge investment. Plus how can it be tested before the war?

[ArmySGT.]

An Anti Missile Missile needs a huge infrastructure of sensors and computers. Its a huge investment. Plus how can it be tested before the war?

I would think that Morrow Sat provides the early warning. The Regional bases provide the ground tracking radar.

Additionally, These could be hidden in underground garages waiting to launch MorrowSat 2, 3, 4 and a few GPS satellites for the Western Hemisphere.

[tsofian]

Landsats have totally different sensors. The ground sensors will almost have to be active and so in the post war world will just scream "KILL ME!"

[cosmicfish]

The project had to acquire vehicles. There are several paths they can use to do so. They can buy new military gear. They can buy obsolete military gear. They can do a design build of their own stuff. They could also buy prototypes and refurbish them. Each has its own merits and pitfalls and looking through the published canon (which is always dangerous and often contradictory) the publishers over the years have done a little bit of each
Is there a reason you would consider the publishers' previous efforts to be a good guidemap? They were wildly inconsistent and many later modules pointed out how often the equipment was a hindrance more than a help. They seemed to have been going for a "cool" game, but created something that was just broken in many ways.

Scratch Designs
MARS-1
Science Rover
Gyroscout
The three Hovercraft from Lonestar
HAMM Suit
MARS-1, the HAAM Suit, and the Gyroscout never made an appearance in the game that I can recall, and with good reason - they were unbalanced and/or dumb. The "Science Rover" appeared only for NPC's and was the only good idea of the bunch. The Lonestar Hovercraft were great examples of screwing the players by forcing them to use garbage. The players are already getting screwed by the rest of the world, having stupid Project decisions pile on doesn't help the game.

Experimental or semi experimental
SK-5 (a total of 14 of these were built including the SR.N5 version built in the UK, so two more than the AH-56A)-These could be included as obsolete or no longer in service instead since the US Military use of the PACV version went out of service in the 1970s
XR-311 I thought Israel had bought a small production run of these but I can't find the reference any longer, It seems the US bought about a dozen for trials.
FACME engineering equipment
The SK-5 was a terrible design, and that is why it was barely used in real life. The one time it appeared in the game, the stupidity was driven home. The XR-311 and FACEME were odd choices but as supporting vehicles were largely harmless and close enough to realistic to justify.

In production open market vehicles
CG Commando
CG Ranger
CG Scout
Not necessarily great choices, but reasonable given the mission and the constraints.

Personally I did the same. I don't see taking a prototype and saying "in this fictional universe it actually worked as designed" being any more handwavium than "The Project did a design build of some limited production run equipment". In the later case the Project has to do all the development from building the prototype.
And that can work when (a) developing from the prototype is plausible within Project limitations and when (b) the prototype is pretty close to what you actually want.

The XV-15, for example, was a test bed and performed pretty well. But developing it into a production model (and actually test-flying all the production run) would have drawn a lot of attention to the Project in a world where the XV-15 never got past prototype. You can retcon the real world to say it was a US production model, but you have not mentioned doing so and I would not recommend it - the real world is already a functioning system, why mess with that?

With the HML, it was designed as a special-purpose vehicle designed to operate in specific areas hauling a specific load to survive a specific threat. Developing that into a general purpose vehicle designed to go anywhere and survive against anything would require so much effort that starting from scratch would make more sense. Especially since the vehicle itself was under tremendous scrutiny and classified!

I have some very specific reasons why I use existing vehicles in preference to stand alone Project only ones. One is I can get things like the videos that show machines in operation. I can often get drawings and sometimes even manuals to hand to the players. I can almost always get a few decent pictures. All these help the players visualize their equipment. If the vehicles are stand alone it requires a lot more work, although I am certainly willing to do so. The St. Louis MP crew of days gone by did full manuals for the Science Rover, the three hovers from Lonestar (very heavily modified) and several other vehicles and load outs.
I have zero problem with using existing vehicles, the only time I recommend going away from that is when there is a specific need that cannot otherwise be met. So I don't use the ludicrous MARS-1 because there are other vehicles that could do much better. And when I do use existing vehicles, I try and figure out something that would be plausible and broadly effective - for example, using the proven and available V-22 instead of the prototype V-15 with it's 1500lb payload.

And if you need art, you need art. I don't know that many players who prefer a pretty picture of a bad vehicle to a rough sketch of something that actually works. The only one I can think of who would just turned 13.

So looking through the canon it doesn't seem that the originators were adverse to using prototypes, production machines or design builds depending on what was available.
They weren't, but they choked on their own bad choices because when you design the foundation of your game poorly then it becomes very hard to build on it. Why repeat that same mistake? I think TMP had an excellent core, but there were a lot of things that drove people away so I don't see a reason to venerate those design choices.

[cosmicfish]

An Anti Missile Missile needs a huge infrastructure of sensors and computers. Its a huge investment. Plus how can it be tested before the war?
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Plus the fact that several nations and multi-national organizations would be watching for this. The Project was supposed to stay out of the way until the shooting stops, if a couple of unlaunched missiles remain as a threat to the Project, there are other ways of dealing with them. Like Phoenix.

[tsofian]

Oh God Not the Phoenix Team!

[cosmicfish]

Oh God Not the Phoenix Team!
Why not? Change it however you need, there is no reason for an organization as large as TMP to have a "flat" skill level. They recruited a ton of vets, having some Green Berets and SEALs and Pararescuemen together in a unit seems both reasonable to achieve AND highly desirable.

If you don't like them in the game, just kill them off! That they were reasonable to exist doesn't mean that they had to survive the fall of PB (although there should be a handful elsewhere for just that reason...).

[tsofian]

I have hated the Phoenix Team since I first thought them through. And I hate them for story reasons. An MP campaign (or any RPG campaign for that matter) is about the PLAYER characters. The way the phoenix Team is written they are a hug sucker punch to the Players-Suddenly players who have nursed their characters through what was months if not years of sitting around game tables find themselves upstaged by a group of NPCs that they never even suspected existed. Now instead of being in charge of their own destiny, as they have been since they uncorked they get to be petted on the heads like good little children while the grown ups take over.

The Play of the Game section uses phrases like
The Phoenix Team Leader expects "a report from the Player Team right away"
"The Phoenix Leader's Demand for a report"
"the Phoenix leader will display tolerance beyond all reason in answering idiot questions from the Team"

There is some additional text about how the Phoenix Team sees the player characters as comrades and will trust them more then the players will trust the Phoenix guys. This is a total reversal of the initial description.

When I ran Prime years ago I didn't use the Phoenix team, but did tell the players about them and let them read the section in the book. They uniformly were exceptionally glad I didn't include the Phoenix Team.

Again YMMV

[cosmicfish]

I can agree with all of that, but story play needs to balance against game world design - the existence of Phoenix team is so logical that their absence would be absurd, so have them be a thing but find some way to kill them off. Perhaps they were in one of the annexes and a cave-in took out the entire team in one go a few decades after the fall of PB.

[tsofian]

I never thought Phoenix was logically required.

[ArmySGT.]

I can agree with all of that, but story play needs to balance against game world design - the existence of Phoenix team is so logical that their absence would be absurd, so have them be a thing but find some way to kill them off. Perhaps they were in one of the annexes and a cave-in took out the entire team in one go a few decades after the fall of PB.


I never thought Phoenix was logically required.

Vehicles Gentlemen, Vehicles!

[cosmicfish]

Vehicles Gentlemen, Vehicles!
It is sometimes difficult to talk about vehicles without talking about alternatives to vehicles. Not every problem can be solved with equipment, after all!

[cosmicfish]

I never thought Phoenix was logically required.
Not necessarily the specific group as described, but I cannot see why Morrow would not need and actively seek to recruit/create some level of "special operations" unit(s) to handle all missions that run-of-the-mill Recon and MARS teams could not handle. Like (going back to the vehicles discussion) groups in possession of nuclear weapons or M1 tanks or that used human shields, or whatever! Morrow could stock their own tanks or anti-ballistic missiles or specialized drones or whatever, but ultimately a handful of well-trained operators is probably going to be a better, cheaper, and more versatile solution.

Is there a Phoenix team thread? There should be a Phoenix team thread.

[ArmySGT.]

pDW81UrKV1M

Throwing weight above their class............ The future of counter battery?

i8fC7bxDYnA

[tsofian]

That system is brutal!

[mmartin798]

Would a trained AN/PPS-05 operator hear this a just a truck with trailer, a tight convoy of trucks or what?

[tsofian]

I don't know about that but an A-10 driver or an AH-64 gunner won't care.

[mmartin798]

True, but doctrine would not have this deployed until air superiority had been achieved.

[.45cultist]

I've been toying with Morrow Industry buildings that had protected and underground areas with items for the personnel not in cryosleep. A few are the depots used to store equipment for the upgrades and items withdrawn from service. a lot more are designated shelters, using storm shelter as a cover. All of the have X number of prewar pick ups, cargo trucks, some SUV's and every once in a while a security armored car. A scenario involving an ersatz frozen watch and ruthless Gypsy Truckers seeking the motherlode of parts and vehicles. Then the team converting a vehicle with an electric transmission and power source.

[ArmySGT.]

Would a trained AN/PPS-05 operator hear this a just a truck with trailer, a tight convoy of trucks or what?

The operator would see a huge radar reflection and have to decide from speed, distance, and range what that image could be.

[mmartin798]

The operator would see a huge radar reflection and have to decide from speed, distance, and range what that image could be.

From the AN/PPS-05 training videos I have watched, the operator stops the scan and listens to the returns and can determine from the different sounds between a single man walking, a squad walking, a Jeep, a 1 ton truck or a 2.5 ton truck.

This excerpt from an AN/PPS-15 training manual give an indication of what I mean:

5. Target Presentation. Target information is presented by the AN/PPS15(V)2, radar set by both visual and audible indications. The prime method of target indication is provided by the target audio in the operator's headset. Variations in the sounds heard in the headset provide an indication of the size and type of target(s) detected. Visual indications of range and azimuth are provided by digital indicators. In addition, a peaking indicator provides visual indication of signal strength which enables the operator to determine when the radar set antenna is oriented directly at the target. Alarm circuits also provide audible and visual indications of target detection as a tone from the alarm speaker and a blinking alarm indicator lamp. Only moving targets can be detected. Examples of moving targets are a man standing still but moving his arms, a man walking or running, and a moving vehicle. In any case, the target must have motion.

and here is a training video on the AN/PPS-05 to show exactly what I am talking about. It's only about 25 minutes long, but the part with the operation of the radar starts around the 14 minute mark:

https://youtu.be/DMIxvBBt7Vw

[bobcat]

meanwhile has anyone considered the Ripsaw tank to replace the commando scout? outperforms the scout in most categories. and has significant cargo capacity compared to the scout(or the XR311).

[tsofian]

meanwhile has anyone considered the Ripsaw tank to replace the commando scout? outperforms the scout in most categories. and has significant cargo capacity compared to the scout(or the XR311).

The Ripsaw would be an ideal vehicle for Damocles in the later 4th edition dates.

[.45cultist]

meanwhile has anyone considered the Ripsaw tank to replace the commando scout? outperforms the scout in most categories. and has significant cargo capacity compared to the scout(or the XR311).

I always thought the CG/Textron vehicles were chosen because of ties to the Council of Tomorrow. It seemed implied any way.

[cosmicfish]

I always thought the CG/Textron vehicles were chosen because of ties to the Council of Tomorrow. It seemed implied any way.
Minimizing sources seems reasonable - it means fewer people needed to make it happen, better security. That doesn't necessarily mean minimizing manufacturers though, it could meaning minimizing national suppliers (i.e., raiding the US arsenal) or other dealers.

I would also note that the ripsaw, while awesome is probably not very survivable or rugged - it was built to be a recreational vehicle for the rich, after all!

[mmartin798]

The Ripsaw MS2 is still being evaluated by the US Army as a UGV. The RV for the rich came later. But regardless, even the military version has no armor. As a Commando Scout replacement, it would seem a step back. XR311 replacement maybe.

[bobcat]

honestly it outperforms the CG scout. the slightly lighter armor can still withstand most threats a scout car would be expected to. the remote operated turret can be equipped with an M242 to handle any firepower gap. it can outrun the majority of ground combat vehicles and is amphibious unlike the scout. best of all unlike the scout you can carry essential tools and equipment or even wounded personnel.

[mmartin798]

Calling it lightly armored is being generous. The cockpit on the MS2 is basically just a roll cage. All the published specs on the MS1 and MS2 call it unarmored. The Ripsaw is great as a UGV, but if you are thinking of using it as a team vehicle it just don't see it performing well. At least not in terms of giving protection to the team from opportunistic fire. If you just want a gun platform that can carry stuff, then it might fill the bill.

[tsofian]

Here is what every Science Team needs!

http://www.darkeststargames.com/spec-sec.htmlhttp://www.darkeststargames.com/uploads/1/3/5/5/13557341/s529784110474930979_p76_i1_w1172.jpeg

[ArmySGT.]

A little on Sierra Army Depot near Herlong, Ca.

SAQQ7kdqmlU

[tsofian]

Look at all the TOYS!