NATO Small Arms production in late stages of Twilight War

[Apache6]

In the final years of the Twilight War, the chronic shortage of raw materials required for the production of weapons and ammunition was being felt throughout the front lines. Equipment, uniforms, and weapons were being made with whatever substitute materials that were available, or, as the Germans themselves called it, “Ersatz,” that could be used in manufacturing as part of the vain attempt to sustain the NATO war effort for another day. Even the most sacred of soldier material – ammunition – was also being made out of substitute materials, such as lacquered steel, in order to get the most out of the dwindling stockpiles of copper and zinc. This late-war lacquered steel “Ersatz” ammunition, which was supposed to increase protection from corrosion while reducing the amount of strategic materials, such as copper and zinc, required for manufacturing, was to have detrimental effects to the soldiers on the front lines.

The following is an account of such lacquered steel ammunition being used in the finals battles around Berlin, as told by Gunther Labes, a Panzer Grenadier who was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 2nd “Müncheberg” Panzergrenadier Regiment, Panzer Division “Müncheberg.” Labes, who was assigned as an Assistant Machine Gunner (MG Schütze 2), along with other members of his company (most of whom were formed from other units or stragglers a few days earlier).

“Due to the lack of suitable raw materials, such as copper and zinc, the cartridges for our rifles and machine guns were no longer being made of brass, but of normal steel. The unprotected steel would have normally soon rusted but, the industrial geniuses of Germany had come upon the solution of dipping the cartridges in transparent lacquer to prevent rusting. One would surely be overestimating the intelligence of those responsible for this decision if one accused them of sabotage! At first the lacquer used was quite effective. As conditions continued to worsen “Eratz” lacquer was used in the production of ammunition.

The effect this measure had on fire power of our troops is almost indescribable. The assault rifles and machine guns in general issue among NATO infantry were very accurate and finally machined weapon. As a result of the lacquering of cartridges, the ejection of fired cartridges by the extractors was only seldom possible, When this occurred regularly, it was not very clever to present oneself as a target to the enemy while trying to clear the breech under cover. The rifleman therefore had to go back into cover with his unusable weapon force the empty cartridge out of the breech with his cleaning rod. Sometimes a hard bang of the stock on the bottom of the trench sufficed.

As No. 2 on the machine gun, I also had to use my ramrod on the spare gun barrels as the last cartridge regularly burned fast in the breech after a burst of fire, and consequently the barrel had to be changed after each burst and a fresh belt of ammunition fed in to prepare the next burst.
Looking back, I cannot help thinking that the musketeers of the Thirty Years War with their 17th Century weapons had a faster rate of fire on average and consequently greater firepower than we infantryman of the late 20th Century with our modern automatic weapons, but supplied with lacquered ammunition!”

An ironic twist concerning the NATO forces was that, at the time, they represented the most modern-equipped military units in the world. One can only imagine the frustration of the members of this force, equipped with state-of-the-art equipment which often left them virtually defenseless.

(I've modified this, with no intent to proffit from it) Late-War German Ammunition at the Front 1945, found at: http://www.dererstezug.com/LateWarGermanAmmunition.htm)

[Apache6]

Rations for NATO during WW III:

The purpose of this article is to examine what type of sustenance NATO soldiers ate while on the front lines in WWIII. Instead of giving a broad picture of what combat rations soldiers were supposed to be issued, this article will describe, in the words of Solders, what they actually ate to sustain themselves. To assist in further in narrowing down this topic, this article will focus on one unit during one campaign: the 5th Mechanized Division during their final offensive.

Background
When the veteran 5th Mechanized Division, which had been decimated during earlier Campaign and eventually sent back to Germany to be reformed and rebuilt. The division was rebuilt with returned wounded, recruits from the U.S. Navy, U.S.A.F. as well as Polish volunteers and small contingents of conscripts sent over from the United States. The Divisions combat units were re-equipped to some extent with rebuild combat gear and German produced civilian trucks and Battalion level field kitchen trailers. While individual soldiers were equipped with mess kits.

With the lack of study supply of MREs, one aspect of the division, like the NATO Army in general, that was modified was its ration, or food supply system. For the most part, the Division supplied its brigades with combat rations and meals reverting to the system the Germany Army used in WW II, some fifty years earlier. The food supply system consisted primarily of a battalion field mess section that prepared and cooked hot rations daily, which were then delivered to the front by various means, usually truck but sometimes by horse, bicycle, or foot.

According to orders, NATO soldiers during World War Three were to be served hot meals once a day from their battalion field kitchens. Ideally, while the troops were marching from one mission to another, the unit’s field mess personnel (which included the mess sergeant and his cook’s assistants (often non-combatant camp followers) would start the fires in the mess trailer, so hot water for tea or coffee could be served out, especially during cold weather. Normally, they would be issued their bread ration for the day (a half pound loaf of dark, multi-grain bread), and would draw cheese, jelly or preserves and perhaps hard sausage for their morning meal. The hot coals in trailer would be kept going all day to cook stew for the mid-day meal, normally the largest meal of the day. The evening meal would look much like that of the morning, using the remainder of the bread issue, with perhaps the addition of soup.

Once the rations arrived at the unit, they were quickly doled out to Soldiers detailed to go to the rear to pick them up, with the food usually being deposited into mess kits or canteen cups. Other items, such as chocolate, candy, bread, onions, coffee etc. were placed onto blankets and then rolled up for easier carrying. As one will read in this article, you will see that this system generally failed to deliver the required amount of food to the Soldiers on the front lines, with the result that many of the men went hungry for days at a time. Another factor that determined when or how late combat troops drew their rations was distance – the farther ahead a unit moved as it attacked, the farther away it got from its supply section, including the field kitchen, making the trip for the ration party carrying the food to the front all that much longer. These ration parties often arrived late, if they could find their units, and when they did, the food was often cold.

For emergency use only the units were supplied with individual combat rations. Each man in the division had one MRE issued before the start of the offensive. These were supplemented by German produced iron rations. There simply were not enough on hand to issue individual rations to the troops on a regular basis and the plan was to issuing hot rations daily with the iron rations being reserved for high tempo operations and the MRE being the last resort. As it turned out the NATO food supply system was inadequate to sustain the fighting energy of the troops during this offensive campaign.

Initially each man carried two iron rations. Also, prior to beginning a tactical march or a movement to contact, troops were issued an additional day's issue of iron rations if sufficient numbers were available. In addition to the iron ration, the units sometimes received packages of instant condensed soup and instant coffee.

The iron ration consisted of hardtack crackers and canned meat and was intended to only be consumed when rations could not be provided by the field kitchen. The standard meat portion of the iron ration came packed in a can that measured 3 inches high by 2 ⅝ inches wide. Weighing between 190 and 200 grams net, the can was normally packed with various pork or beef products, including the German version of Spam or corned beef hash. The use of horsemeat was common at the time. The cans were usually not labeled, but issued directly from a box or crate containing 72 cans, which would have had a descriptive paper label glued to the outside. The canned pork “was excellent in both appearance and flavor…packed solidly, with just enough fat to fill the spaces completely.” The canned beef, which came in a similar-sized can, was “of dubious appearance and palatability but could be improved by the addition of salt.”

The cracker portion of the iron ration offered a bit more variety, though its taste often left something to be desired. Depending upon what was available the Soldier would receive half a pound of Hardtack, crisp bread, saltine crackers or occasionally lightly sweetened crackers. The Hardtack was most common and was very hard and dense. It was made from a very low-grade flour, salt and water and had unlimited keeping qualities.” A half pound ration was made up of 6 hardtack crackers in a wax paper sleeve, they were also packed in a cardboard box containing 72 sleeves.

The following are eyewitness accounts, of what the NATO soldiers ate during this campaign:

Sgt Jonath Horst, 2nd Battalion, 52nd Armor, summarized the overall situation of the NATO’s attempts to feed its men during this campaign, including how they were able to survive the campaign, “Our food supplies were unsatisfactory. Other than captured Soviet canned goods and some preserves taken from civilian houses, there was nothing.” Bringing food forward from the Battalion Trains was dangerous because of the threat of Soviet snipers. This led the troops to simply build a fire in a stove or fire to heat their rations.

Lieutenant Stetter, 1st BN, 5th Combat Engineer Battalion, also stated the following about receiving a much-need issue of soup, ““We had our first warm food in ten days, pea soup on which the fat was swimming, for there was plenty of pork fat in the deserted houses. So we ate, no, we gobbled as much of the fatty broth as we could hold; serious digestive disturbances and stomach cramps were to follow two days later.”

WO3 Brach, 2nd BN, 3rd MP Bn (Provisional), had this to say after finally receiving his first NATO rations in days, “When we had reached the foot of the hill, there stood a soldier with a loaf of bread in his hand, cutting off slice after slice, which our men practically tore out of his hand, for we had waited six days for rations, since the supply train could not be brought closer because of enemy fire. And this slice of bread was welcome to us; we were practically starving, and this bread tasted wonderful.”

Major Jones, Cmdr, 1st BN, 9 Armor, commented on what his men were issued, “The food service rolled in the next day, and we finally got warm food again, a welcome change, for in the last few days we had nothing but stale dark rye bread and rancid butter.” He also commented on being re-supplied, with not only rations, but also some sundry items, “The goods the Sustainment Brigade brought along were then distributed to the men of my battalion, numbering 97 men at the time, included cigarettes, German beer (2 1 litter bottles per man), soap, combs, razor blades, and chocolate (one bar/man).” At one point during the campaign, Jones men had to scrounge through the bread bags of Soviet dead and wounded. At another point, specifically after overrunning a Soviet Division outside of Lorcski they had more supplies then they could carry, they halted there for two days until the other Battalions of the Brigade could send trucks to carry away the plunder. The day after they seized the Divison HQ, they feasted barbequing a cow which had been killed in the attack. Days later he remembers his gunner looking out his turret hatch, and asking a dispirited infantrymen “are you hungry?” When he said, “Yes, and how!” He threw him a loaf of thick Soviet Army rye bread.”

Sgt Horsth states that at one point his acting First Sgt advised him to go up the road to the farmhouse; and loot the equipment of the dead men in the stable there. When he came out of the stable he had found a few loafs of bread, three iron rations, plus two packages of hard candies in the packs of the dead, that was all his ten man platoon had for three days.

The one food item that seems to have sustained the 5th was captured rations. Prior to the battle, NATOs was appalled by the quality of Soviet rations. During the battle they very pleased to capture Soviet Rations, as they had nothing else. “In the village (Bettendorf) itself, we appropriated a Soviet food and clothing storehouse in a old trucking company compound. Now for a pleasant change we had enough to eat. Everybody feasted and nobody asked where our field kitchen was.” SFC Brach continued with another account of Warsaw Pact rations, “In Bettendorf the soldiers stuffed their pockets, assault packs and vehicles again with potatioes, onions and cabbage from a the farms supporting a Soviet Motor Rifle Regiments Cantonment. In fact, some of our infantry even rounded up old baby carriages and shopping carts and filled them with food. That evening, after several days, the Battalion field kitchen finally came to supply us with hot food, but nobody was hungry, thanks to the –Soviet rations. Our mess sergeant was annoyed to have to take the watery stew away again.

The NKVD seemed to be equipped with a better quality of food then the standard Soviet infantry and Pvt Friedrich, 1st BN, 9th Armor had something to say about the NKVD Rations, “I discovered a pallet of olive green boxes, about the size of a shoe box in the back of a URAL 375, and I searched them curiously. Out came small brown cartons that I had a hard time opening for they were coated with wax. They each contained a tin of sardines, a tin of peanut butter, dried nuts, cookies, tea, dried fruit bars, cigarettes, and other such things.“ Very value trade items indeed.

During the campaign, many civilians fled their homes to avoid another round of fighting in their area. These abandoned residences became the target of many a hungry soldier looking for something to eat. For several weeks the only food supplies we received came from the houses that the civilians had left, mostly it came from the gardens and orchards (mostly apple), but we found small supplies of preserves, onions, potatoes, and dried and smoked meat.

Carrrying his rations. As far as where or how the individual carried his food, per orders he carried either his one MRE or an iron ration unopened in his combat load usually in the buttpack. Other ration components were stuck in the pockets of his uniform blouse and trousers. He was limited to what he could carry, because he still had to carry his ammunition, grenades, weapon, canteen, and other field equipment, as well as an additional ammunition can or two for the squad M-60 or mortar rounds.

Conclusion
One of the myths of the NATO during the Twilight War was that were a well-equipped war machine with unending numbers of Abrams and Leopard tanks, F-15 Fighters, and legions of well equipped Rangers and Paratroops out for blood. As this short article has proven, the real story is that toward the end of the War the NATO Army could not even keep its own front line combat troops adequately fed during the campaign. As the Battle dragged on, the lack of proper nutrition, made worse by having to live out in the open during an uncharacteristically cold spring, took its physical and mental toll on the average Joe. Tired, hungry, cold, and forced to forage for his food, only a superman could have continued fighting with the same enthusiasm and effectiveness that the 5th Mechanized displayed during the offensive.

Issued Rations: Dark Rye Bread, soup/stew, margarine/butter, 4 Oz of dried meat or fish (at the most). A single MRE and two days’ worth of iron rations.

Captured Rations: Wide variety of generally low quality. Though as stated above some units happened on treasure troves of supplies.

Local Rations: Bread, potatoes, dried meat, dried apples (This source of rations appears to be the rarity rather than the norm).

[kato13]

Nice. keep 'em coming.

[Olefin]

In the final years of the Twilight War, the chronic shortage of raw materials required for the production of weapons and ammunition was being felt throughout the front lines. Equipment, uniforms, and weapons were being made with whatever substitute materials that were available, or, as the Germans themselves called it, “Ersatz,” that could be used in manufacturing as part of the vain attempt to sustain the NATO war effort for another day. Even the most sacred of soldier material – ammunition – was also being made out of substitute materials, such as lacquered steel, in order to get the most out of the dwindling stockpiles of copper and zinc. This late-war lacquered steel “Ersatz” ammunition, which was supposed to increase protection from corrosion while reducing the amount of strategic materials, such as copper and zinc, required for manufacturing, was to have detrimental effects to the soldiers on the front lines.

The following is an account of such lacquered steel ammunition being used in the finals battles around Berlin, as told by Gunther Labes, a Panzer Grenadier who was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 2nd “Müncheberg” Panzergrenadier Regiment, Panzer Division “Müncheberg.” Labes, who was assigned as an Assistant Machine Gunner (MG Schütze 2), along with other members of his company (most of whom were formed from other units or stragglers a few days earlier).

“Due to the lack of suitable raw materials, such as copper and zinc, the cartridges for our rifles and machine guns were no longer being made of brass, but of normal steel. The unprotected steel would have normally soon rusted but, the industrial geniuses of Germany had come upon the solution of dipping the cartridges in transparent lacquer to prevent rusting. One would surely be overestimating the intelligence of those responsible for this decision if one accused them of sabotage! At first the lacquer used was quite effective. As conditions continued to worsen “Eratz” lacquer was used in the production of ammunition.

The effect this measure had on fire power of our troops is almost indescribable. The assault rifles and machine guns in general issue among NATO infantry were very accurate and finally machined weapon. As a result of the lacquering of cartridges, the ejection of fired cartridges by the extractors was only seldom possible, When this occurred regularly, it was not very clever to present oneself as a target to the enemy while trying to clear the breech under cover. The rifleman therefore had to go back into cover with his unusable weapon force the empty cartridge out of the breech with his cleaning rod. Sometimes a hard bang of the stock on the bottom of the trench sufficed.

As No. 2 on the machine gun, I also had to use my ramrod on the spare gun barrels as the last cartridge regularly burned fast in the breech after a burst of fire, and consequently the barrel had to be changed after each burst and a fresh belt of ammunition fed in to prepare the next burst.
Looking back, I cannot help thinking that the musketeers of the Thirty Years War with their 17th Century weapons had a faster rate of fire on average and consequently greater firepower than we infantryman of the late 20th Century with our modern automatic weapons, but supplied with lacquered ammunition!”

An ironic twist concerning the NATO forces was that, at the time, they represented the most modern-equipped military units in the world. One can only imagine the frustration of the members of this force, equipped with state-of-the-art equipment which often left them virtually defenseless.

(I've modified this, with no intent to proffit from it) Late-War German Ammunition at the Front 1945, found at: http://www.dererstezug.com/LateWarGermanAmmunition.htm)

Thats why picking up spent brass cartridges would have mattered so much to avoid using ammo that was doctored like that. One thing to keep in mind is that there would have been A LOT of spent brass around in Germany and Poland to be used - and that with the smaller size of the division by 2000 the ammo supply needed would have been correspondily smaller.

If you look at the canon one reason the Germans switched back to older rifles was that the new ones they had were out of ammo mainly because there wasnt any brass to police and reload

[Raellus]

Apache, I like your IC vignettes illustrating the reaction to the lacquered steel ammo and field rations. I think it would be really cool to compile a bunch of similar anectdotes into comprehensive "In Their Own Words" account of the later years of the Twilight War. It seems like a project that would lend itself to an anthology format, with contributions from multiple authors.

One can buy steel-cased cartridges in a few calibers. I've seen it in 7.62x39mm at my local hunting/sporting goods store. I've read that it's pretty hard on weapons' internal working components so I won't try it. The lacquer bit is creative. I can see what you described as being a short-lived experiment, not a systemic replacement of traditional brass casing production. As you described, the proof is in the pudding. As Olefin pointed out, policing up spent brass and reloading it becomes a military cottage industry as the war drags on.

[Olefin]

Apache, I like your IC vignettes illustrating the reaction to the lacquered steel ammo and field rations. I think it would be really cool to compile a bunch of similar anectdotes into comprehensive "In Their Own Words" account of the later years of the Twilight War. It seems like a project that would lend itself to an anthology format, with contributions from multiple authors.

One can buy steel-cased cartridges in a few calibers. I've seen it in 7.62x39mm at my local hunting/sporting goods store. I've read that it's pretty hard on weapons' internal working components so I won't try it. The lacquer bit is creative. I can see what you described as being a short-lived experiment, not a systemic replacement of traditional brass casing production. As you described, the proof is in the pudding. As Olefin pointed out, policing up spent brass and reloading it becomes a military cottage industry as the war drags on.

Brass cartridges for reloading purposes was practically the same as cash in our campaign - one of our biggest scores was ambushing a small convoy that had in it a truck loaded down with spent cartridges and shell casings - we got a very good deal for them in Krakow

[kato13]

The soviets didn't use brass at all for their small arms rounds, correct?

[Ironside]

These articles are wonderful. If you could write more, they would be much appreciated.

[ArmySGT.]

The fluted actions of the German G3 wouldn't even blink at steel ammunition. The brass isn't reloadable, but extraction isn't a problem.

[Olefin]

The soviets didn't use brass at all for their small arms rounds, correct?

Soviet 7.62×39mm cartridge originally used a bimetallic steel and copper case and in the early 60's it transitioned to a lacquered steel case

They made a ton of ammo and you had to figure by late in the war they were issuing stuff that may have been in storage for a long time - so the answer is most likely it was lacquered steel but if its old ammo it could have steel and copper

[swaghauler]

I Highly doubt that lacquered cases would ever make it onto a modern battlefield. Heat resistant lacquer would be in short supply while an old substitute (wax) would not. The Soviets have shown that painted steel cases can work very handily in modern actions. Stock AR-15's can use the Wolf brand steel cased ammo without a problem. Lacquered cases were used during WW2; but modern powder and lacquer DON'T mix. A hot wax seal around the bullet crimp would work just as well for sealing out water (rust would be a "non-issue" in the cottage industry reloading plant, they simply wouldn't care) and could be used to seal plastic shotgun shell hulls. The brass cases from fired ammo are pretty hardy and even a "green" brass case can be polished very quickly in a case tumbler. Most rounds can be reloaded between 10 and 12 times providing they weren't loaded to +P pressures (which will reduce case life). Even the harshly "dinged" cases from an H&K "enhanced blowback" roller locking action (MP5, G3, HK33/41, MG3) can usually be salvaged by running them through a 2 piece (inside and outside) resizing die. I would roll a 1d10 for 6 or less for successful resizing of crimped cases.

[Ancestor]

Great stuff! I'm stealing this for my upcoming campaign. A couple of thoughts:

1. I loved the addition of soup. One of the things that I think the Army does well is soup. I think this, along with stew, would have been a staple of the 5th ID.

2. Any thoughts on eggs? Another thing the Army does well (look at the line omlette bar at any DFAC). Now, I'm not thinking there's going to be such a thing on at the field kitchen as 5th ID is jumping off on it's raid, BUT, chickens and eggs are fairly easy to keep and eggs are a great source of protein. Now, chickens are succeptible to disease if kept together in large numbers or come in contact with certain migratory waterfowl (which have probably already been shot by locals for food), but to me some type of arrangement such as "protection and tractor maintenance in exchange for some of your eggs" would be a pretty sweet deal for a German or Polish farmer.

[swaghauler]

Great stuff! I'm stealing this for my upcoming campaign. A couple of thoughts:

1. I loved the addition of soup. One of the things that I think the Army does well is soup. I think this, along with stew, would have been a staple of the 5th ID.

2. Any thoughts on eggs? Another thing the Army does well (look at the line omlette bar at any DFAC). Now, I'm not thinking there's going to be such a thing on at the field kitchen as 5th ID is jumping off on it's raid, BUT, chickens and eggs are fairly easy to keep and eggs are a great source of protein. Now, chickens are succeptible to disease if kept together in large numbers or come in contact with certain migratory waterfowl (which have probably already been shot by locals for food), but to me some type of arrangement such as "protection and tractor maintenance in exchange for some of your eggs" would be a pretty sweet deal for a German or Polish farmer.

It wouldn't surprise me to see all manner of "livestock" being driven along (as in a cattle drive, NOT in a truck) with the logistics tail. The US Army was forced to open a school for handling pack mules during the most recent deployments. The mules were just the best solution for certain units in Afghanistan. I'm guessing the US (and NATO) would "hire" a bunch of "Civilian Contractors" to handle such livestock in Twilight.

[ArmySGT.]

Great stuff! I'm stealing this for my upcoming campaign. A couple of thoughts:

1. I loved the addition of soup. One of the things that I think the Army does well is soup. I think this, along with stew, would have been a staple of the 5th ID.

2. Any thoughts on eggs? Another thing the Army does well (look at the line omlette bar at any DFAC). Now, I'm not thinking there's going to be such a thing on at the field kitchen as 5th ID is jumping off on it's raid, BUT, chickens and eggs are fairly easy to keep and eggs are a great source of protein. Now, chickens are succeptible to disease if kept together in large numbers or come in contact with certain migratory waterfowl (which have probably already been shot by locals for food), but to me some type of arrangement such as "protection and tractor maintenance in exchange for some of your eggs" would be a pretty sweet deal for a German or Polish farmer.

Forgetting ducks, turkeys, and geese. Each provides meat, eggs, feathers (down coats), and are higher in fats than most chicken breeds. Rabbits in hutches provide meat and furs for winter clothes. Goats provide meat, fat, milk, and hides. Goats can also two small trailers or pack loads of 20 to 40 lbs. Each also does well on natural forage and doesn't need grains though those would improve final weight. Hogs and Boars don't provide anything except waste disposal until slaughter then it lard, meat, and very tough hide for high wear leather purposes.

The feed requirements for cows, horses, mules, and oxen would be to great a burden for a mobile unit. Only a unit in cantonment could pasture them or stock that much hay and grains..... which would count against ethanol production.

[ArmySGT.]

It wouldn't surprise me to see all manner of "livestock" being driven along (as in a cattle drive, NOT in a truck) with the logistics tail. The US Army was forced to open a school for handling pack mules during the most recent deployments. The mules were just the best solution for certain units in Afghanistan. I'm guessing the US (and NATO) would "hire" a bunch of "Civilian Contractors" to handle such livestock in Twilight.

Military tractor trailer could pull a commandeerd live stock trailer.... Or use the stake and pallet trailer. There are also refridgerated vans and freezer vans in inventory.

[Ancestor]

The feed requirements for cows, horses, mules, and oxen would be to great a burden for a mobile unit. Only a unit in cantonment could pasture them or stock that much hay and grains..... which would count against ethanol production.

Great point! There would definitely be competition for resources! I may work that into my game. Thanks!

[WallShadow]

Forgetting ducks, turkeys, and geese. Each provides meat, eggs, feathers (down coats), and are higher in fats than most chicken breeds.
Common pigeons produce eggs, meat, and feathers, are extremely common and henceforth available, and can be kept in fairly small compartments; and most importantly, pigeon droppings are incredibly beneficial to soil nutrients and do not require the aging times that other dungs do. I posted on these boards a fair-sized note on urban farming that addressed the benefits of pigeons regarding urban homesteading in Armies of the Night.

The feed requirements for cows, horses, mules, and oxen would be to great a burden for a mobile unit. Only a unit in cantonment could pasture them or stock that much hay and grains..... which would count against ethanol production.
The use of urea from human urine applied to chopped hay, straw, and other less-suitable fodder (corn stalks, etc) can boost the nutrient availability of the material by 20%; this could offset the diversion of grains as cattle feedstock.

[swaghauler]

Military tractor trailer could pull a commandeerd live stock trailer.... Or use the stake and pallet trailer. There are also refridgerated vans and freezer vans in inventory.

I would be concerned about the diversion of fuel from combat units for transport of livestock or refrigeration. I think it would be more "resource feasible" to hire civilians to "drive" cattle, sheep, or goats behind the combat units. These animals really don't need feed hay or grain as a food source for short 100km to 150km drives. You just let them graze on the drive. Texas Longhorns and Brahmas can and do survive completely on graze (although they both look anorexic to this former Black Angus herder). These two breeds have another advantage that most milk and beef cattle don't have today. They can birth without assistance (google "Calf Chains" for an education on this). Horses are a very different story. A horse NEEDS grain if it is to do any work for you. Horses without grain will deteriorate very quickly if used for work. This all assumes an orderly/planned movement of a military unit. If a military unit were "moving with a purpose"; I'm betting they'd just "forage" for supplies (much to the distress of the locals).

[Raellus]

I can imagine chicken coops, rabbit hutches, and small pig and goat pens festooning the top decks of military vehicles as they move from laager site to laager site (assuming combat is not expected imminently).

[Draq]

Another prime example of a franken-gun. Behold the ak/SKS/fal hybrid. http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=54230.0

[swaghauler]

Another prime example of a franken-gun. Behold the ak/SKS/fal hybrid. http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=54230.0

Nothing quite like "Field Expedient," functioning "parts guns."

[ArmySGT.]

I would be concerned about the diversion of fuel from combat units for transport of livestock or refrigeration. I think it would be more "resource feasible" to hire civilians to "drive" cattle, sheep, or goats behind the combat units.
To slow to keep up and to vulnerable to opportunists. A desperate hungry man could shoot one cow and there is little you could do about it. A desperate and hungry village could stampede or scatter a herd and take several head for themselves.

This, also cows moving at 10 miles per day are going to be outpaced by unit movements that can be 100 miles away in a single day. That would leave them further vulnerable to bandits.

Last, cattle drives of the American Old West were either from winter to summer graze or to market. That market could be hundreds of miles away, but the cowboy expected only to be on the trail for a few months then home with a good purse.

Civilian cattle drivers in T2K might sign on indefinitely because it does mean they eat. However, can you expect them to cross borders and enter an area that might be hostile to them?

[Apache6]

A sutler or victualer is a civilian merchant who sells provisions to an army in the field, in camp, or in quarters. Sutlers sold wares from the back of a wagon or a temporary tent, traveling with an army or to remote military outposts.

These merchants often followed the armies of the American Revolution and the American Civil War to try to sell their merchandise to the soldiers. Generally, the sutlers built their stores within the limits of an army post or just off the defense line, and first needed to receive a license from the Commander prior to construction; they were, by extension, also subject to his regulations.

Sutlers, frequently the only local suppliers of non-military goods, often developed monopolies on simple commodities like tobacco, coffee, or sugar and rose to powerful stature. Since government-issued coinage was scarce during the Civil War, sutlers often conducted transactions using a particular type of Civil War token known as a sutler token.[3]

Sutlers played a major role in the recreation of army men between 1865 and 1890. Sutlers' stores outside of military posts were usually also open to non-military travelers and offered gambling, drinking, and prostitution.

[FPSlover]

Those are a damn fine articles. I may have to use them myself.

[swaghauler]

To slow to keep up and to vulnerable to opportunists. A desperate hungry man could shoot one cow and there is little you could do about it. A desperate and hungry village could stampede or scatter a herd and take several head for themselves.

This, also cows moving at 10 miles per day are going to be outpaced by unit movements that can be 100 miles away in a single day. That would leave them further vulnerable to bandits.

Last, cattle drives of the American Old West were either from winter to summer graze or to market. That market could be hundreds of miles away, but the cowboy expected only to be on the trail for a few months then home with a good purse.

Civilian cattle drivers in T2K might sign on indefinitely because it does mean they eat. However, can you expect them to cross borders and enter an area that might be hostile to them?

That is why you would also have your logistics tail (made of mostly ox or horse drawn wagons?) moving with the herd. The few trucks that you would have left in your logistics would be making "runs" to the various units "in need" from your logistics train AS IT MOVED.

Most armored columns using modern fuel can only move about 150 km per load of fuel (with a 24 to 48 hr combat reserve). Units moving on BioDiesel or Ethanol would be hard pressed to move 100km on the same load of fuel. Assuming one move per week on average (the time for a large mobile still to "regenerate" your fuel capacity); The cattle drivers would just "catch up" to the forward element as it was preparing to move again. On a historical note; This is also about the same speed of both Russian and German Supply trains during the later years of WW2.

Another very important element in Logistics would be trains. Diesel Electric trains can easily be converted to run on natural gas and "cracked" coal oil. Their large carrying capacity and speed would make them strategic targets to be taken intact where ever they could be secured. An Army could move it's entire logistics tail in one move. This would allow large movements with full support.

[Ancestor]

Between this thread and the book I'm reading ("American By Blood", a Western by Andrew Huebner about three US Cavalry Scouts in the aftermath of Little Bighorn), I felt the need to post recipes for hardtack. Enjoy!
http://www.food.com/recipe/hardtack-109814

[Ancestor]

Just throwing one more element out there - what about salt for preserving beef? Would it not be an advantage to control a salt mine/lick? And even more so for something like black pepper and/or sugar?

[swaghauler]

Just throwing one more element out there - what about salt for preserving beef? Would it not be an advantage to control a salt mine/lick? And even more so for something like black pepper and/or sugar?

Salt would be a staple in food preparation. Smoking meats will only preserve food for a while. Salted beef, pork or fish will last MUCH longer.

Sugar would be important as both a food additive and a fuel. Sugar cane can produce Ethanol with a much higher energy density than corn oil can.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Salt would be a staple in food preparation. Smoking meats will only preserve food for a while. Salted beef, pork or fish will last MUCH longer.

Sugar would be important as both a food additive and a fuel. Sugar cane can produce Ethanol with a much higher energy density than corn oil can.
Wiki has this list of significant salt mining sites in Europe: -
Austria - Hallstatt and Salzkammergut.
Bosnia - Tuzla
Bulgaria - Provadiya; and Solnitsata, an ancient town believed by Bulgarian archaeologists to be the oldest in Europe and the site of a salt production facility approximately six millennia ago.
England - The "-wich towns" of Cheshire and Worcestershire.
Germany - Rheinberg, Berchtesgaden
Italy - Racalmuto, Realmonte and Petralia Soprana within the production sites managed by Italkali.
N. Ireland - Kilroot, near Carrickfergus, more than a century old and containing passages whose combined length exceeds 25 km.
Poland - Wieliczka and Bochnia, both established in the mid-13th century and still operating, mostly as museums.
Romania - Slănic (with Salina Veche, Europe's largest salt mine), Cacica, Ocnele Mari, Salina Turda, Târgu Ocna, Ocna Sibiului and Praid.

Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_mining

This could make for an interesting change of pace, military operations to locate and secure salt mines.

As an aside, in the USA one of the significant salt mining sites is under Detroit, Michigan.

[Anna Elizabeth]

Does anyone think that soldiers in T2K would buy or make brass catchers for their weapons? Perhaps there is something about brass catchers that would hinder performance, so I don't know.

[rcaf_777]

Does anyone think that soldiers in T2K would buy or make brass catchers for their weapons? Perhaps there is something about brass catchers that would hinder performance, so I don't know.

Good question Anna I dont the troops buying brass catchers as ammo only becomes scare in the later stages of the war as fewers and fewers ships arrive in europe and by that time getting itmes from the mail wouldnt happen. If you found them in europe odds are the troops would just take them no purchase nessary lol

I think you see a lot of field-expedient aka home made ones using whatever troops could find. The weapon system and way the round is ejected would determine if it hinder performance. For example weapons mounted on vehicles or to fixed postions might have a sandbag attached by some wire for a catcher

[Anna Elizabeth]

That makes sense. :) I've seen ads for brass catchers on AR-15-type weapons, but what is nice for a hobbyist might not work in the field.

[rcaf_777]

I also think PC might want to pick all the brass after a firefight that they win :D anybody know what a spent casing weights?

[Schone23666]

I also think PC might want to pick all the brass after a firefight that they win :D anybody know what a spent casing weights?

That depends partly on what material the casings are made out of, doesn't it? Might not make much difference if you're just picking up a few dozen casings, but several hundred you might begin to feel the difference.

I know brass is a common material for a lot of cartridges, but the Soviets among others were still using some lacquered steel casings, weren't they? I think there was a thread around here somewhere that had some discussion on Soviet steel-cased ammo.

Another thing to take into consideration is that the ejection action on some weapons, depending on the make and model can be pretty violent and either damage or even rip the case in half.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

As a rough rule of thumb: -
1. any Heckler & Koch firearm of the G3 & MP5 family and related designs (e.g. CETME Model C) will all damage the brass due to their roller-delayed blowback operation. Most other designs will only do minor/inconsequential/no damage unless it's a catastrophic failure of the ammo or the random chance that the ejected brass hits the sides of the ejection port (the H&K weapons increase this random chance to a positive certainty!).
2. Soviets used lacquered steel cases to save on brass (brass was a strategic metal they never seemed to have enough of).


P.S. the steel cases were lacquered to stop them from rusting so we're not talking about high quality steel, even with that they can still be reloaded a few times however.

[.45cultist]

I Highly doubt that lacquered cases would ever make it onto a modern battlefield. Heat resistant lacquer would be in short supply while an old substitute (wax) would not. The Soviets have shown that painted steel cases can work very handily in modern actions. Stock AR-15's can use the Wolf brand steel cased ammo without a problem. Lacquered cases were used during WW2; but modern powder and lacquer DON'T mix. A hot wax seal around the bullet crimp would work just as well for sealing out water (rust would be a "non-issue" in the cottage industry reloading plant, they simply wouldn't care) and could be used to seal plastic shotgun shell hulls. The brass cases from fired ammo are pretty hardy and even a "green" brass case can be polished very quickly in a case tumbler. Most rounds can be reloaded between 10 and 12 times providing they weren't loaded to +P pressures (which will reduce case life). Even the harshly "dinged" cases from an H&K "enhanced blowback" roller locking action (MP5, G3, HK33/41, MG3) can usually be salvaged by running them through a 2 piece (inside and outside) resizing die. I would roll a 1d10 for 6 or less for successful resizing of crimped cases.

In the 1950's the U.S. made and issued steel cased .30 carbine, .30-06 M2 and .45ACP. There are Berdan primer punches that one must turn the case until the punch meets the holes, but water and a dowel rod can do the same job. Berdan reloading primers are made and a Boxer conversion DIY video is online for inspiration.

[swaghauler]

In the 1950's the U.S. made and issued steel cased .30 carbine, .30-06 M2 and .45ACP. There are Berdan primer punches that one must turn the case until the punch meets the holes, but water and a dowel rod can do the same job. Berdan reloading primers are made and a Boxer conversion DIY video is online for inspiration.

I have and do still reload steel cased and Berdan primed cases. What I was referring to in my post is the fact that the chemicals in modern lacquer will leech into modern "ECO-FRIENDLY" smokeless powder and "kill" said powder. The same is true for most lubrication and also any carb cleaner you might use to clean your weapon with. Using lacquer in any cottage industry reloader would contaminate the inside of the case when you resized it and cause major ignition reliability issues. That's why I said that most small operations would simply forego the lacquer and just punch out "raw" mild steel casings. They could "rattle can" paint them afterwards but I don't see anyone wasting the time to do this on cheap ammo. The better cases (salvaged brass) would be saved for "higher paying customers" or the local authority.

[Olefin]

Wiki has this list of significant salt mining sites in Europe: -
Austria - Hallstatt and Salzkammergut.
Bosnia - Tuzla
Bulgaria - Provadiya; and Solnitsata, an ancient town believed by Bulgarian archaeologists to be the oldest in Europe and the site of a salt production facility approximately six millennia ago.
England - The "-wich towns" of Cheshire and Worcestershire.
Germany - Rheinberg, Berchtesgaden
Italy - Racalmuto, Realmonte and Petralia Soprana within the production sites managed by Italkali.
N. Ireland - Kilroot, near Carrickfergus, more than a century old and containing passages whose combined length exceeds 25 km.
Poland - Wieliczka and Bochnia, both established in the mid-13th century and still operating, mostly as museums.
Romania - Slănic (with Salina Veche, Europe's largest salt mine), Cacica, Ocnele Mari, Salina Turda, Târgu Ocna, Ocna Sibiului and Praid.

Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_mining

This could make for an interesting change of pace, military operations to locate and secure salt mines.

As an aside, in the USA one of the significant salt mining sites is under Detroit, Michigan.

Another place in the US would be the salt mines in Western NY - they are very large and definitely would be an important resource to guard and exploit with refrigeration lacking to preserve meat and fish

[unkated]

Also available for salt is evaporated sea water. This technique was used for centuries in warm coastal areas:


Pump (or flow) sea water into a shallow, sealed pool.
Close off the pool form the sea.
Let it sit in a good hot tropical sun and evaporate for a while until half or 3/4 or so is gone.
Pump out the very salty water, and boil the rest; refill the pool.


Usually, in a full production cycle, you have several pools at various stages of evaporation, and enough facilities to boil off one pool at a time.

In places where it rains frequently, you can cover the ponds with a tent (depending on size).

This method was popular from Roman times until the early 20th century around the Mediterranean Sea - France, Spain, Sicily, North Africa, Greece, Israel, Egypt.

This technique was used in the Carribbean Islands, when the Europeans colonized them. And San Francisco Bay and around the Great Salt Lake in Utah.

Avery Island, Louisiana, (home of McIlleney's famous Tobasco Sauce) has a major salt mine no longer in use (but available).

Grand Saline, Texas, and Sifto Mine in Goderich, Ontario have active salt mines. Fairport, OH has an active mine 2000 ft deep.


Inagua (Bahamas) has an active solar/evaporation system - has since the 1950s. Hmmm. Need to see what drives that...



There are probably other minor sources of Salt that over the course of the 20th Century became less economically viable as a salt production location (certainly, that is what happened in central NY), but could serve again at a more localized level of production and distribution. If you live in Rochester, NY (in June 2000), it will be more possible to get salt from Syracuse, NY (up I-90 or along the Erie Canal - it's still there and still wet, mostly) than from Avery Island, LA, Grand Saline, Texas, or Detroit, MI.

Uncle Ted

[.45cultist]

There was a middle aged guy prowling the abandoned truckstop outside town. He wasn't looking through the wrecks, just the lot. When asked, he held up what looked like and ingot,"Just looking for wheel weights, gotta feed my weapons." He carried an old Colt auto in a battered thumb break holster, it's mag had a lead alloy that was like a hardball load. He had molds for his CAR-15 and swaged old .22LR cases for jackets. Captain later made a deal for him to load some of our brass. He also turned out to be quite a scavenger. Just a quick one, I'm looking at my "Homefront" notes for a dependent based campaign. The guy described was married to an staff officer and a part of the "officer's wives club" as a source of heavy work.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Also available for salt is evaporated sea water. This technique was used for centuries in warm coastal areas:


Pump (or flow) sea water into a shallow, sealed pool.
Close off the pool form the sea.
Let it sit in a good hot tropical sun and evaporate for a while until half or 3/4 or so is gone.
Pump out the very salty water, and boil the rest; refill the pool.


Usually, in a full production cycle, you have several pools at various stages of evaporation, and enough facilities to boil off one pool at a time.

In places where it rains frequently, you can cover the ponds with a tent (depending on size).

This method was popular from Roman times until the early 20th century around the Mediterranean Sea - France, Spain, Sicily, North Africa, Greece, Israel, Egypt.

This technique was used in the Carribbean Islands, when the Europeans colonized them. And San Francisco Bay and around the Great Salt Lake in Utah.

Avery Island, Louisiana, (home of McIlleney's famous Tobasco Sauce) has a major salt mine no longer in use (but available).

Grand Saline, Texas, and Sifto Mine in Goderich, Ontario have active salt mines. Fairport, OH has an active mine 2000 ft deep.


Inagua (Bahamas) has an active solar/evaporation system - has since the 1950s. Hmmm. Need to see what drives that...



There are probably other minor sources of Salt that over the course of the 20th Century became less economically viable as a salt production location (certainly, that is what happened in central NY), but could serve again at a more localized level of production and distribution. If you live in Rochester, NY (in June 2000), it will be more possible to get salt from Syracuse, NY (up I-90 or along the Erie Canal - it's still there and still wet, mostly) than from Avery Island, LA, Grand Saline, Texas, or Detroit, MI.

Uncle Ted
I had forgotten about this until his post but as Uncle Ted points out, the evaporation method is still a big contributor to salt production in the modern world. In fact one of the companies here in Australia is named Solar Salt as it produces much of its supply by the evaporation method.
I'd even seen facilities for this at Dampier and Port Hedland during one joint services exercise during the 1990s but as mentioned, I had forgot all about it.

Here in Western Australia, there are evaporative salt facilities at the towns of Port Hedland, Dampier, Roeburne, Onslow, Carnarvon and Shark Bay. About 90% of total salt production in Australia is for export sales so it's considered a significant industry here. Those locations aren't much help for Australia after the Twilight War as they are quite remote but certainly the workers at these facilities could set up new production sites in the remaining population centres on the coast.

Closer to the European & North American theatres of the Twilight War, Mexico is a large exporter of salt and when you consider that salt is a component required for the manufacture of caustic soda and of chlorine, there may be an adventure or three for characters sneaking into Mexico to either seize supplies of salt, seize the production facilities or to destroy them.

[Targan]

I had forgotten about this until his post but as Uncle Ted points out, the evaporation method is still a big contributor to salt production in the modern world. In fact one of the companies here in Australia is named Solar Salt as it produces much of its supply by the evaporation method.
I'd even seen facilities for this at Dampier and Port Hedland during one joint services exercise during the 1990s but as mentioned, I had forgot all about it.

Here in Western Australia, there are evaporative salt facilities at the towns of Port Hedland, Dampier, Roeburne, Onslow, Carnarvon and Shark Bay. About 90% of total salt production in Australia is for export sales so it's considered a significant industry here. Those locations aren't much help for Australia after the Twilight War as they are quite remote but certainly the workers at these facilities could set up new production sites in the remaining population centres on the coast.

My stepfather established and part-owns an evaporation method salt field in South Australia.

[kalos72]

Current economic viability is something that impacts the data we get about things like this, mineral and oil production. If it wasn't viable in 1980's then you wont find much information on it now...

Thats why I give my group some real freedom with whats possible when it comes to resources.

Ten guys and a truck can mine salt, in relative quantities, just fine in NY and a ton of other places. Texas has a ton of salt domes...

[unkated]

...About 90% of total salt production in Australia is for export sales so it's considered a significant industry here. Those locations aren't much help for Australia after the Twilight War as they are quite remote.

Wait. Are you suggesting that this area of Australia might become an outlaw wasteland, where biker gangs harry and terrorize a decreasing population of normal folks?

Might they be defended by small number of brave men behind bronze badges? Perhaps driving the last of the V-8 engined Police Interceptors?

Did I already see this movie? :)

Uncle Ted

You listen bronze. I am the Nightrider. I'm a fuel injected suicide machine. I am the rocker, I am the roller, I am the out-of-controller! I'm the Nightrider, baby, and we ain't never comin' back!

[swaghauler]

Wait. Are you suggesting that this area of Australia might become an outlaw wasteland, where biker gangs harry and terrorize a decreasing population of normal folks?

Might they be defended by small number of brave men behind bronze badges? Perhaps driving the last of the V-8 engined Police Interceptors?

Did I already see this movie? :)

Uncle Ted

You listen bronze. I am the Nightrider. I'm a fuel injected suicide machine. I am the rocker, I am the roller, I am the out-of-controller! I'm the Nightrider, baby, and we ain't never comin' back!

In America, We call that place....Detroit.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Ah you guys!
Both these replies made me laugh out loud :D


As for salt, you know what The Humungus would say...
"There has been too much violence. Too much pain. But I have an honorable compromise. Just walk away. Give me your pump, the oil, the salt and the whole compound, and I'll spare your lives. Just walk away and we'll give you a safe passageway in the wastelands. Just walk away and there will be an end to the horror."

[CDAT]

That makes sense. :) I've seen ads for brass catchers on AR-15-type weapons, but what is nice for a hobbyist might not work in the field.

I have seen some of the aviation guys using them. My understating is that the only issues they may cause is when they get full they will jam the weapon, most that I have seen would hold at most 100 spent cases, less if they get jumbled up badly. I would guess they are good for two, maybe three magazines out of most rifles.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

I own an HK 93. I can tell you... you can reload that brass normally.

You "can" reload steel cased ammo. Its just harder on the equipment.

The only issue I see with reloading in a T2K enviornment is making the ammo to function reliably. Casings... no problems. Primers and actual FMJ type projectiles are much harder. Powder IDK it would seem that you would need good components.

I'd love to hear ideas on this.... :-)

[Apache6]

Photos from messing of 2d MARDIV in Poland. A German made mess kit issued to Sgt Jamie Carol. A wild pig, 'sniped' by a Marine from 2/6.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think the biggest problem with reloading military smallarms ammo at the cottage industry level, is something that we have mentioned on the forum before but doesn't seem to be been brought up again in this thread - removal/replacement of the primer from used cases.

Most military rifle ammo (including from Eastern Europe) has been using Berdan primers for pretty much all of the 20th century. Berdan primer cases have two small flash holes and a centreline anvil where the flash hole would be on Boxer primer ammo (Boxer priming is found on nearly all common civilian centrefire ammo made in the USA as well as places like Australia). Basically, Berdan primers are a simple cup whereas Boxer primers are a two piece design that incorporates an anvil. On both types, the priming compound is crushed between the firing pin and the anvil to cause ignition of the gunpowder.

Special tools are available to remove Berdan primers but they are not likely to be widespread in the warzones. Boxer primed ammo is relatively easy to deprime and requires little more than a hole punch of a width suitable for the flash hole.
Berdan priming was, as far as I can tell, chosen for most military forces around the world because Boxer primers were far more complex to manufacture in the 1800s. This would have been of obvious importance in the past but with mass production factories of the 1900s, it's less so now.
Examples of Berdan (on the left) and Boxer (on the right) primer ammunition
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Berdan_vs_boxer2.jpg/453px-Berdan_vs_boxer2.jpg

As mentioned, special tools are available to remove Berdan primers and some reloaders have even found methods to convert Berdan primed ammo to a Boxer primer. However there is a simple way to remove Berdan primers that requires tools no more complex than those used for removing Boxer primers and the principles of hydraulics. Basically, fill the case with water and use a suitable width rod to put pressure on the water thus causing the water to force the primer out.
Here's a short (8 mins) YouTube video showing a conversion of Berdan to Boxer ammo plus using the hydraulic technique to remove the Berdan primers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkKJfvMyuDg
and here's another vid (approx 10 mins) showing another person's method of removing the Berdan primers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQNDgjcgofY
And this thread shows a dry method (i.e. no use of water) of removing the Berdan primer along with the main point of converting Berdan ammo to Boxer.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/25275/t/Berdan-to-Boxer-Conversion-Method.html#.VZicpBuqpBc

I think all these methods would be "discovered" in the T2k world depending on a community's ability to make the required primers and while not something that many Players might care about, it does add an extra layer to the game that can be useful for fleshing out the world or even as seeds for adventure scenarios.
For a more informed report, the wiki article on centrefire ammo is a good start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centerfire_ammunition

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Another thing about ammo. Even though in the twilight war the war had raged for 3-4 years with BILLIONS of rounds fired.... how many BILLIONS of rounds were manufactured before it all stopped?

I would say that in places with constant conflict of minor military forces with relatively low number of fighter/shooters there would be enough to go around.

Now whether that ammo is easy to distribute is another story.

I think Stainless hit ti in the head with the above post though. I think a small but well run manufacturing plant (by game standards) would be able to produce reliable ammo for military use.

[Draq]

Some insight as to what places like wojo are capable of https://youtu.be/0TMrunbZLJw

[WallShadow]

Speaking of munitions/armaments, if the PCs gifted with Chemistry, Armorer, Combat Engineer, Mechanic, Metallurgy, and similar industrial skills would work for Wojo in exchange for ammo or discounted munition prices, how much could they possibly improve on the 10% failure rate? Perhaps building and operating a tempering oven to reduce cartridge case failures/extend case life. Or quality control on the propellant and primer lines to make misfires less likely? Or revamping the dies to ensue cases are not damaged by mis-shaping them? What about the effect a PC's Instruction skill might have on raising the quality co-efficient of the Wojo production line?
Also, on a distantly related note, would mine-detectors give scavengers an advantage in locating spent brass? If so, how much?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Re-reading this thread I realize that .45cultist's post (#36 in the thread) actually had mentioned the difficulties of removing Berdan primers and also a very quick (and cottage-industry) solution.
Obviously I wasn't paying attention when I made my post with the images of Berdan and Boxer primer cartridge cases :o
Just goes to show, it's worth going back and re-reading a lot of these threads :D

[.45cultist]

Re-reading this thread I realize that .45cultist's post (#36 in the thread) actually had mentioned the difficulties of removing Berdan primers and also a very quick (and cottage-industry) solution.
Obviously I wasn't paying attention when I made my post with the images of Berdan and Boxer primer cartridge cases :o
Just goes to show, it's worth going back and re-reading a lot of these threads :D

Visual aids always help.

[WallShadow]

Just goes to show, it's worth going back and re-reading a lot of these threads :D

Soooo.....Thread necromancy can be a _good_ thing?? (says one of the most egregious sinners in that vein:o)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well, I don't particularly object to thread necromancy. Sometimes it can prove quite helpful for people because they hadn't seen the thread (or didn't read it properly like I did!) or because it brings in new info. I think we're pretty lucky here because this is one of the few forums I've been on that does not actively discourage it.

And having said that, going back to one of your posts Wallshadow (#53 in this thread), I think mine detectors and even metal detectors of any type would be "must have" pieces of kit for scavengers for as long as people could get batteries to power them.
Many civilian metal detectors can easily locate coins, nails and the like so I would think they would have no trouble locating spent brass. In regards to game stats for 2nd/2.2 I would think that using one would make the Task Check one level of Difficulty easier.

[Draq]

Well, I don't particularly object to thread necromancy. Sometimes it can prove quite helpful for people because they hadn't seen the thread (or didn't read it properly like I did!) or because it brings in new info. I think we're pretty lucky here because this is one of the few forums I've been on that does not actively discourage itr.
I have all my favorite thread subscribed and if I find something that I feel belongs, it goes. Seems silly to keep making new threads, and having to keep back referencing old ones. Besides I'm really proud of the 'best that never was' thread' I started

[unkated]

There are probably other minor sources of Salt that over the course of the 20th Century became less economically viable as a salt production location (certainly, that is what happened in central NY), but could serve again at a more localized level of production and distribution. If you live in Rochester, NY (in June 2000), it will be more possible to get salt from Syracuse, NY (up I-90 or along the Erie Canal - it's still there and still wet, mostly) than from Avery Island, LA, Grand Saline, Texas, or Detroit, MI.

Another salt resource located in W Virginia near the Ohio:

Making Salt From an Ancient Ocean Trapped Below the Appalachians (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/salt-ancient-iapetus-ocean-appalachia-virginia)

Apparently a big deal 1780s-1860, rebuilt post ACW and commercially viable until the 1950s. And able to be restarted in modern times, at least on a small scale. Complete with a river to aid in distribution.

Uncle Ted

[swaghauler]

Another salt resource located in W Virginia near the Ohio:

Making Salt From an Ancient Ocean Trapped Below the Appalachians (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/salt-ancient-iapetus-ocean-appalachia-virginia)

Apparently a big deal 1780s-1860, rebuilt post ACW and commercially viable until the 1950s. And able to be restarted in modern times, at least on a small scale. Complete with a river to aid in distribution.

Uncle Ted

Been by there hauling in a front loader to First Energy. I spend most of my time hauling to the mine at Fair Harbor OH (just east of Cleveland). They provide almost ALL of the salt for our municipalities to get through winter.

[James Langham]

Well, I don't particularly object to thread necromancy. Sometimes it can prove quite helpful for people because they hadn't seen the thread (or didn't read it properly like I did!) or because it brings in new info. I think we're pretty lucky here because this is one of the few forums I've been on that does not actively discourage it.

And having said that, going back to one of your posts Wallshadow (#53 in this thread), I think mine detectors and even metal detectors of any type would be "must have" pieces of kit for scavengers for as long as people could get batteries to power them.
Many civilian metal detectors can easily locate coins, nails and the like so I would think they would have no trouble locating spent brass. In regards to game stats for 2nd/2.2 I would think that using one would make the Task Check one level of Difficulty easier.

The problem is they also detect shrapnel...

[Draq]

https://youtu.be/xlNXEbR0Pzs