in the begining...

[Draq]

so ladies and gentlemen, presuming you are starting a new v1 campaign right after kalisz, how do you set everything up? # of players, characters per player, amount and quality of gear, vehicles/mounts, and supplies, geographical position, soldier nationality, branch/job/specialty per soldier, etc... im trying to compile a range of data within which to make my own campaign. I want input from actual players/GMs.

[LT. Ox]

Great questions. I am in the very same boat as my son in-law wants to have me DM a game for him, his sister and my Grand Kids (4). Sister wants to play a Medical type i.e. A surgeon or such from a mash. Son in-law would like to be a special ops Officer. The Kids just want to play with grandpa’s miniatures and on the big game table (4’ by 8” sand table)
Hmmmm! Soooo why is that group together near the rally point of Kalisz and how much equipment to have them try to use and keep track of. Me, I am retired and have all the time in the world to make lists and various problems for them to solve. The thing is they have no military experience other than their father being in the Army and a CIA analyst and cop. Well that may count for my daughter marring into their clan.
So we will let them start with pretty much whatever they want (notice the royal we, in DM mode already)
They will be here in an hour or so, I will let you know what the plan is then and you can have a laugh.:D

[LT. Ox]

Ok here is a list;
Two Lav one recovery type and one refitted C and C:)( them can swim)
Two HMMWV, one weapon mount ( M-19) and one medical conversion.
Two Bradley M-2
One M-113 or the mortar ammo carrier convert
One Five tone Truck, one 5,000 liter tanker
One M-60 and One M-1
Perhaps a few horses and tack
This brings us in around fifty to sixty personnel of various types.
Main group is an A-team, With the Doc and three medical people then the two squads of Ranger Infantry. Six or so mortar trained Joes the two tank crews and some transport personnel oh yeah the recovery and repair people that is another six.
We may have to do some negotiations :D
He calls the group “the Four Captains”
A-team leader, the Doc, one of the Tankers and the Infantry Captain.
He started with the A-team and picked the rest up while resupplying in anticipation of the breakout.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

My favorite campaign that I ran with the original modules I had the bulk of the players be from the 256th Brigade. They were a recce section.

The C.O. was in a VBL M-11 with a PC scout and a PC Driver/RTO. The second vehicle was a German Wiesel MK I with a 20mm AC. Gunner/Commander was my youngest player (GREAT player!) and another PC (he was just a crazy driver!)

A lot of fun and meyham. The PCs could get just about any equipemnt they wanted but it had to fit in the vehicles and because they had to have amphibious capability... no trailers. So they opted for a lot of alcohol fuel and food and went with the minimum ammo for the 20mm for the Wiesel (200 rounds?). They also mounted a M249 as a co-ax bore sighted with a 500 round ammo bin. The VBL had an MAG MMG I think they only had 1250 rounds for it.

They lost the Wiesel in the Black Madonna module. When they came out of the tomb one of their nemesis caught up to them an a large firefight started. The Wiesel got hit with multiple 14.5mm rounds.

After that they made it to Krakow where they traded a bunch of loot for a very beat up Spahpanzer Kurtz. They picked up to more PCs, one a German and the other an American.

I think that campaign lasted about 6 months.

I believe if you ave 50% of the PCs as Americans its more viable since it is a US unit.

My other very succsessful campaig was run with only 4 PCs in Maine. The PCs crossed the Atlantic on a 2 masted schooner. There were 5 NPCs only 1 was military. The PCs were an ex USMC Force Recon team and when they got to Maine/Nova Scotia they pretty much ran a guerilla war against New America. It was a great combo of politics, combat, and survival with ship to ship combat, spec ops missions, espionage recce missions. That lasted about a year off and on. That one had the players scrounging for just about everything and they liked it. Lots of wheeling and dealing. I would have to say that was my fav game I ran and would love to run it again.

[Draq]

Thanx, that's pretty helpful, gents. I was thinking of starting out with just 2-5 characters in one vehicle(HMMWV, m113, Bradley or nato equivalents) a few days after the breakthrough. Low on most everything, lost, maybe have a few mild to moderate wounds and vehicles damage/problems, kinda set up a tutorial, for both me and my players as this will be our first time playing. Give everyone a chance to get used to the non-combat aspects and develop character personalities. Then run into red scouts/recon patrol or something difficult but still do-able. Then when they finally regroup with the main forces, grab up more men supplies and vehicles

[Draq]

Maybe end up with a pow and some captured gear. Maybe a btr, bmp, or scout car.

[Tegyrius]

One thing I've been wanting to try is setting up the Kalisz breakout as a wargaming scenario, using some rules set like Force on Force. Put a decent array of hardware and support units on the table, including at least half soft-skinned transports. Start with a Pact recon force on the table and add Pact reinforcements every turn via another random table. Also roll randomly for the side on which the Pact units enter, reflecting the encirclement. End the game when all NATO forces are destroyed or have moved off the board.

Then tally up everything that exited the board before the end of the game. Those vehicles and personnel are the players' starting force for the campaign, including any damage they were carrying when they exited the board. Every recovered transport provides a random roll for bulk supplies (fuel, food, ammo). All PCs are built so they plausibly would have been among the surviving troops/crews.

- C.

[Raellus]

That sounds hella fun, Tegyrius.

[ArmySGT.]

No one wants to do it from the other side? A shattered collection of Warsaw Pact troops?

[Tegyrius]

I cite Force on Force simply because it's one of the few modern wargaming systems with which I'm familiar, but I think the core book and the Cold War Gone Hot supplement have rules and stats for just about everything you might want to put on the table. All my figures are in 28mm, though, and it would be a heck of an investment in miniatures and vehicles. If I had a local group for this sort of shenanigan, I'd either proxy a whole bunch of stuff with my Battlefield Evolution plastic figures or find a source for cheap 1:285 micro armor.

- C.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Thanx, that's pretty helpful, gents. I was thinking of starting out with just 2-5 characters in one vehicle(HMMWV, m113, Bradley or nato equivalents) a few days after the breakthrough. Low on most everything, lost, maybe have a few mild to moderate wounds and vehicles damage/problems, kinda set up a tutorial, for both me and my players as this will be our first time playing. Give everyone a chance to get used to the non-combat aspects and develop character personalities. Then run into red scouts/recon patrol or something difficult but still do-able. Then when they finally regroup with the main forces, grab up more men supplies and vehicles
I think this is the ideal way to start out when you have a group of players new to the rules - start out simple and work your way up to the more involved stuff when people are used to the basics.

My take on the Kalisz scenario was also of the low key approach - pretty much just the PCs (and maybe a helpful NPC if the players didn't have much military knowledge) and what they could carry and possibly a vehicle if they got lucky with the dice roll. But I might give them a small bonus as well.
For example, I had a group that included a defecting Czech junior officer so I added another defecting Czech junior officer as an NPC. The group decided that they wanted to pool their dice and get a BTR-80 so I allowed that and as their bonus, the NPC Czech officer knew of a small cache of 44 gallon drums full of diesel (and so I then decided to have the BTR still fitted to run on diesel). This gave them a total (on-road) travel range of about 1500 kilometres before they'd have to convert the engine to alcohol (however, they didn't start with any ammo for the 14.5mm KPVT and only had about 700 rounds for the co-ax PKT).

[Olefin]

Have done Kalisz three different times as a player - first time was with an M1A1 in college along with several very interesting player characters including a gentleman playing an infantry scout who was an Apache (since he was one in real life) and was deadly with a bow and a knife as well as NPC's who had a Bradley - we managed to blow our way thru the Russians at the bridge, liberate the POW camp and take out a couple of HQ's (my GM was a "we like explosions" GM) and eventually got thru the Madonna, Krakow and Warsaw and then back to Germany

- played for two years at college - ended up back home and doing Last Submarine trilogy - we spent a lot of time on various adventures looking for fuel (including one player making what my GM called the two luckiest rolls he had ever seen that led to us finding an underground tank full of fuel at USCIE SOLNE (i.e that one that the Krakow module says is almost certainly false - my GM assigned a very small chance to find the supposed fuel and he made the rolls)

other two times were recent - one with a broken down LAV-25 that we exchanged for a BMP that the crew was too busy taking a leak to see us - and then got it taken out by an anti-tank mine - got to the Madonna

the last time we had a Bradley and a HEMTT - was a very fun game - again we liberated the POW's but then the game ran out of juice and it ended before we cleared the area and went anywhere

[Draq]

More excellent info gents. I was considering injecting a Polish ex-pact soldier turned rebel-scout/interpreter, as an NPC, which will help players with little knowledge of poland. I believe i read some where the 5th division meets up with some Polish free legion(?) Forces before Kalisz. Also considering injecting an encounter witha modified version of the lieutenant's 4th brigade from final blackout as a fourth wall reference. Really want to take that book, update it to fit in t2k, and run it as a campaign.

[Draq]

And yes, since I first discovered t2k I've thought about campaigns on both sides, using various references, like metro 2033/2034, for a sov-pact campaign.

[Draq]

I like the idea of wargaming the encirclement of Kalisz, but as much as I'd love too, I could never do minis.

[Draq]

I'm thinking for a starting party, a medic, a vehicle crewman with smg, a combat engineer with shotgun and m79, the rest, riflemen.

[Olefin]

I'm thinking for a starting party, a medic, a vehicle crewman with smg, a combat engineer with shotgun and m79, the rest, riflemen"

for your crewman it helps if he is either a driver or a gunner - no fun at all to "obtain" a vehicle and not have the skill to either drive it or operate its gun if it has one

all depends on your vehicle mix - if they get a LAV or Bradley or a tank at minimum they will need a driver and gunner - also keep in mind per the game they are supposed to start at full fuel and ammo load - make sure the players know otherwise - they have money which could be used to buy ammo and you could have that ammo, if you want, instead of on them be a buried cache they had to leave behind earlier in the battle and thus you have to get to it to be able to get the vehicles fully supplied

[Slappy]

We usually went pretty small. 5-7 PCs, maybe a couple of NPCs to fill out skills (i.e. if none of the PCs wanted to be a mechanic). Once ran with a local Polish Free Army liaison as an interpreter and guide. Was a good way for the GM to feed information and drive action.

That means maybe two vehicles. A hummer and a LAV-25 are a nice pair. They have decent abilities, but don't make the PCs invulnerable. They still need to run from real opposition. And you can run a still and tanker trailer, one on each.

Also did this once with the PCs just on horseback. Really limits the amount of stuff they can carry, but keeps them fairly mobile and keeps the profile down. Ran into some issues as I don't personally know that much about horses, but if you do can be a nice twist.

[Olefin]

I wonder if a lot of people do a Hummer and a LAV-25 because that is what is in the guidebook as an example - personally I prefer the Bradley - a LAV-25 is pretty much dead meat against any kind of tank where a Bradley at least has the TOW's on board - and since carrying capacity is pretty limited for TOW's you have to really limit when you use them -

for instance in my last campaign we had a Bradley and used a TOW to save our butts when we got caught in the open by a Russian convoy - but you had to really think about using one because the chances of finding a replacement TOW anywhere outside of Krakow is basically nil

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Problem with heavy armor is just that... its heavy. Try to get a 30+ ton Bradley over a local wood bridge meant for 3 ton trucks. Plus, they. Suck. Fuel. And maintenance is an issue. Atleast with HMMVs and a LAV 25 you can get common auto parts as spares.

Smaller is better especially in the age of you MIGHT see a tank.

[Olefin]

I see it more as the ability to actualy have a chance to survive in a firefight and getting out of the Kalisz area

having light armor that only stops a 7.62 isnt going to help much getting ouf of dodge - and when you have marauders that have BMP's (Krakow and Kalisz), tanks (Warsaw) and other fun things you can run into then that light vehicle is going to be Swiss Cheese or worse very quickly

in my last game we ran into a BMP and a BTR-70 supported by two mortars with our Bradley - we were able to win - barely - because we had the TOW and a 25mm that outranged what they had

if it had been a LAV and a Humvee we would have been burning debris in the field we were crossing and campaign ended on day 2 - with the LAV blowing up when the BMP nailed it (we got it with the TOW before he got off his missile)

now later on you can go for light vehicles or horses - but you have to survive to get out of Dodge first when Kalisz, Krakow and the Madonna have all kinds of nasty ways to take out a light vehicle

[Slappy]

There are obviously a bunch of ways to do it, but I think it depends on what sort of group you have. You just have to change tactics when on foot or mounted. Your escape becomes more an escape and evade than straight up combat. Stay off the roads, travet at night, look for isolated patrols you can pick off.

[Olefin]

and I agree with that totally - if all you have is a Hummer or truck then it becomes a cat and mouse game where it could take you a very long time to get out of dodge

also it depends where you start the scenario - is it several days later and you are miles from Kalisz - or are you in the midst of blasting your way out and you play the firefight getting out of the pocket

[LT. Ox]

Me, I like the LAV-25, it has a good cargo load fair survivability and fair weapons mix, it's swim is ...well it is made for swimming right?
I do not go along with fuel as a factor, they all use fuel faster than can be replaced which leaves choices and that my friends is what the game is about.
What I see is the main problem is who the game is for?
To me it is about the players, the GM has to enjoy his work but the game has to be driven by the mix of players involved.
Do they want to shoot it out or do they want to think their way around?
What equipment do they have, whatever they want, within reason and the desire of the DM to work with them? I mean what DM wants to run a Twilight game of two corps of tanks?
I like to keep things within the USA realm as far as equipment goes, I know it and have worked with a lot of I,t I get more enjoyment out of riding an M-113 or Even a Bradley or LAV then a captured Russian or a picked up German or French ride, it feeds my wants.
I tend to play longer and have more fun but that is me.

[Olefin]

Remember as I mentioned my first campaign was run by a GM who loved the military part of the game - meaning that we had a bunch of firefights - as he said "you rolled the tank, might as well put it to the use that it was intended for"

and I agree completely with Ox - a campaign is really what the players are looking for - thats why I love the game - there are so many ways to play it and things you can do that there really is no "right way or wrong way" to play the game - as long as its fun for all concerned

[Adm.Lee]

That's a large and impressive group to start. I think I ran/started Kalisz at least 4 times, always with 1 PC/player, and sometimes 1 NPC for the GM to feed them information ("Sir, do you really want to do that?"). I've run for 3 players and for 8.

Since then, I've gravitated to adding more PCs and NPCs, since once a character gets hit, they're likely out of action for a good long while.

[Draq]

Im sure somebody has done a red campaign.

[Draq]

Besides armor and fuel economy, speed is also a factor. The Bradley is better armored but the lav and Humvee are much faster. Can't kill what you can't hit. And the Humvee is a smaller target too. And take into consideration the SLEP for the lav, upgrading the armor to withstanding 14.7mm/.50cal, but sacrificing its amphibious ability.

[CDAT]

I am working on an idea right now. Each player will make two characters, One will be a SpecOps of players choice. The second one I will have them make a version of them self. Either as they are now more or less, or as they would have been at the start date. The plan is then to have the game start with a two fold mission. Part one, the SpecOps are sent to recover a device, so the players will gear up as they want, but anything that the GM (me) thinks is out of place make them explain why they want to take it. Everything also needs to fit in a Chinook along with the NPC's I am thinking at least a Pilot, Copilot, Crew Chief and two Gunners. I am thinking six Operators with two FAV's, if I do not end up with six players, I will fill out the team with NPC's after they recover it and are on their way back the Helo get shot down and this is were the players take over. As this is going on the second team will that will be made up of players as them self's will be assigned to the US Embassy either working for the Embassy or military assigned there. They will be sent out on a mission of utmost importance to the Ambassador, saving his daughter who is working as a DR. without boarder. They will be heading out in a couple of unarmored SUV's and what ever gear they think is appropriate again having to explain anything that does not feel right to the GM. The players are all that the Ambassador has available. As they get to picking up the DR. they receive a a radio call for any unit that can hear them that they are going down with precious cargo (the first players group). When both groups hook up is when I plan for the strikes around the world, and the team is on their own.

[Apache6]

I've 'started' campaigns as a GM four times.

Once was 'straight from the book.' Each player had a PC. No NPCs, though they collected a few along the way. They had a LAV and a motorcycle.

Second time I gave each player two PC and a "T2K platoon" of NCPs, each PC was a small unit leader (platoon cmdr, squad leader, or vehicle cmdr). They started out as a kampfagroup with a tank platoon (2 M1), a mechanized platoon (1 M2, 1 M113, 1 BMP-2), a motorized infantry platoon (1 LAV-25, 2 "armored 5 tons w HMG", and a HMMWV TOW), a literally horse mounted cavalry platoon (with 15 riders), and an engineer platoon (M-88 ARV, See-tractor and a dump truck). Each player had one PC as a platoon leader and one as a squad leader or vehicle commander (they could not be in the same unit). The "group commander" was not a PC but a 'salty NPC LtCol' who had his own LAV-25. There was also a 'npc controlled artillery battery' (a M-109 howitzer, a BM-21 MRL and two 120mm mortars (only the mortars had a good supply of ammo) and a logistics detachment (one HEMMT with large still and tanker and a HMMWV with field kitchen trailer, which often ended up carrying wounded). They were tasked as the rear guard of their brigade. We played this out by shifting between RPGing and minature wargaming. The "colonel" often took advice from the PCs. It was a doomed force, as it lay smack in the path of a motorized rifle division's advance. It gave us lots of epic last stands. We gamed this over the course of about 6 months, playing about once a month until the 'unit' was eroded down to a smaller party, consisting of one PC and two or three NPCs for each of the players. One of our players lost each of his PCs a couple of times over and I let him 'switch personas' to one of the NPCs.

Third time, the PCs were a local resistance cell in Tennessee fighting against the New Confederacy (our version of New America), Soviet Spetnez made an occasional appearance for some reason, and trying to survive. Each player played pretty much themselves.

Fourth time each player got one NPC, they started off as members of the 5th Infantry Division COC, including liaison officers (explaining Special Operations and Polish PCs) when it was overrun. Several of the PCs started off with vehicles, they were shot to pieces when the division was overrun. They had to escape and evade. They eventually stole a UAZ-469 and a Ural truck. I had them liberate a few POWs when a couple of players (who were a literal married) couple wanted to join. In addition to the PCs, one of the NPCs they liberated became their medic.

[swaghauler]

Besides armor and fuel economy, speed is also a factor. The Bradley is better armored but the lav and Humvee are much faster. Can't kill what you can't hit. And the Humvee is a smaller target too. And take into consideration the SLEP for the lav, upgrading the armor to withstanding 14.7mm/.50cal, but sacrificing its amphibious ability.

The other things you need to consider are:

How large & heavy is the vehicle?

There are quite a few 5-ton bridges in Europe. A Hummer can go places a Bradly would NEVER fit. I like to have the dimensions of the commonly used vehicles in game (height, width, and length). There were many places in Somalia where my HEMTT could not go... it was simply too big and too heavy.

What is the "lifespan" of the suspension?

Most tracked vehicles will gain 1 Wear Value level per 500km travelled (min) up to 5000km (max) based on the vehicle's listed "track life" (anywhere from 5000km to 50,000km based on the model). This is one area where US armored vehicles lose out to the lighter Soviet T72. The T72 has a supposed "track life" of 50,000km (if you can believe the Russians).

Wheeled vehicles will have a "tire life" of from 50,000km (passenger car performance tires) up to 180,000km (heavy truck/semi tires) with wheeled AFV tires lasting about 150,000km. The Wear Value level would increase by 1 for every 5k to 18k kilometers moved. As you can see, wheeled vehicles hold an advantage here.

These are both eclipsed by horses or motorcycles. Horses are to most "economical" means of transport in terms of resources required.