Police TO&E......

[.45cultist]

Any LEO's want to hint to possible gear available? Nothing RW, but let's say Precinct 123 has 105 personnel and 15 or so non police employees. 10-15 are admin-leadership, armory and property clerks, jailers, and roughly 90 officers in three shifts. How much duty ammo, how many spare sidearms, shotguns, patrol rifles? It's time to look at "False Dawn" 2013, and dust off the zombie notes. what is available to desperate city officials, or looting survivors using your professional opinion? For our foreign brethren, any suggestions, UK AFO van loadouts, etc.

[swaghauler]

My county Sheriff's Department only got "standard issued equipment" in 2008. Prior to that, it was bring what you have. They gave us stipends to buy gun belts, uniforms, and vests.
In 2008, we got Glock 23's (gen 3) in 40 S&W each with 6 mags (a total of 20 units for our 15 man department). 6 Mossberg 590's with Surefire fore ends (for our cruisers and the courthouse) and 6 Semi auto M4 carbines with AimPoint T1 micros, "Gansta grips," Surefire lights and 6 30 rnd windowed Pmags per carbine (also for our cruisers and the courthouse). We had "semi-standardized" on the Glock 23 and the SIG 229 back in 2000 (with everyone buying their own) and then authorized the .357 SIG round about a year later. Older deputies (like myself) were permitted to retain their SIGs if they chose too. Newer deputies were required to carry the Glock 23. Everyone must carry an issued Glock 23 now.

[swaghauler]

The armored car company (Fidelity Armored) I worked for had an eclectic mix of weapons in the armory (which were seldom used). Guards and messengers were permitted to carry any weapon they qualified with, so most carried their own weapons. Our boss bought two Mossberg 500s (18" bbl, 7+1 mag) and two M590 pump action shotguns (a 20" 8+1 shot M590 & an 18" 7+1 M590A1). We also had an AR-15 HBAR (20" bbl) with GI mags, a Beretta Carbine in 45 ACP (with a couple of 20 rnd extended mags), and a 20 gauge double barrel with a tac rail and Surefire flashlight (under a desk in the office no less). Pistols included 2 Walther P99's in 40 S&W, a Kimber 1911 in .45 ACP, and a S&W 6904 (12 shot compact) 9mm.
I swear my boss went to auctions and yard sales to buy guns.

When I worked for Great Lakes Armored (before LOOMIS took over), we had Mossberg M500 pump shotguns (12 gauge) and half a dozen S&W model 13? fixed sight 6 shot stainless .357 Magnum revolvers (with 2 speedloaders each). Guards and messengers were cleared to use any weapon they wanted (both long guns and sidearms) as long as they passed the company qualification with it.

[ArmySGT.]

Any LEO's want to hint to possible gear available? Nothing RW, but let's say Precinct 123 has 105 personnel and 15 or so non police employees. 10-15 are admin-leadership, armory and property clerks, jailers, and roughly 90 officers in three shifts. How much duty ammo, how many spare sidearms, shotguns, patrol rifles? It's time to look at "False Dawn" 2013, and dust off the zombie notes. what is available to desperate city officials, or looting survivors using your professional opinion? For our foreign brethren, any suggestions, UK AFO van loadouts, etc.

https://sites.google.com/site/worldinventory/

[swaghauler]

https://sites.google.com/site/worldinventory/

Not very complete or accurate, but interesting.

looked at PA. Most cities or counties in my region not even listed.

Pittsburgh is listed as authorizing Glock 17 (9mmP) or Glock 23 (.40 S&W) when the police there have been issued the Glock 19 (9mmP) for nearly 2 decades.

Lists Erie as having an unknown 9mmP. This was the ill fated (and completely unreliable) Ruger P85. This was replaced by the Glock 19 (9mmP). in the 90's.

.40 S&W is improperly listed as 10mm X 22mm. This is the 10mm Auto. The .40 S&W round is 10mm X 19mm (exactly the same length as a 9mmP).

[.45cultist]

Interesting, I though the property room would resemble a marauder cache, but wanted an idea of what a station might have on hand.

[Olefin]

my small town in western NY had a total of nine police - all armed (until well into the 1990's) with revolvers and pump action shotguns, until they finally got Glock's around 2000

[rcaf_777]

There are 170 Police Services in Canada, I sure the State of Calforina has more than that.

The number could be higher if count Sheriffs(Different function in Canada), Highway Patrols, and Conservation Units

[aspqrz]

Just as a matter of interest, as I have some scattered stuff I scavenged from assorted sites of unconfirmed reliability, what sort of equipment other than weapons does a 'typical' (or local to wherever you are) copper have ...

* On their persons

* Mounted on/in their vehicle

* In the trunk of their vehicle

It's sort of peripherally important for an adventure scenario I am writing.

I realise most of you will probably have info on US Police, but I'd be interested in Canadian and European forces as well (and, really, Police from anywhere)

I mean, do they wear body armour all the time, as some TV shows suggest? What sort of radios do they have - Car mounted or only personal sets? Do they have old style Handcuffs or the newer disposable Cable Tie-like ones, or both? Is there a First Aid kit in the Boot (Trunk)?

That sort of nuts and bolts stuff.

Phil McGregor

[lombardoslegion]

Other than weapons,

on my duty belt I carry 2 sets of steel handcuffs, 2 sets of rubber gloves, a radio, and a flashlight. Some of my coworkers carry tourniquets.

in the squad car, I have a radio, flex cuffs, fire extinguisher, Kevlar helmet, first aid kit, flash light, gas mask, computer and ticket books.

We are required to wear our body armor at all times. I work for a suburban department outside of Chicago and this is a fairly typical load out for this area.

Weapon wise, we carry Glock 17s and at least 3 mags, pepper spray, a taser, and a baton. Back up guns are optional. We have Ar15s in the trunk and can request a shotgun from the armory when needed.

[swaghauler]

Other than weapons,

on my duty belt I carry 2 sets of steel handcuffs, 2 sets of rubber gloves, a radio, and a flashlight. Some of my coworkers carry tourniquets.

in the squad car, I have a radio, flex cuffs, fire extinguisher, Kevlar helmet, first aid kit, flash light, gas mask, computer and ticket books.

We are required to wear our body armor at all times. I work for a suburban department outside of Chicago and this is a fairly typical load out for this area.

Weapon wise, we carry Glock 17s and at least 3 mags, pepper spray, a taser, and a baton. Back up guns are optional. We have Ar15s in the trunk and can request a shotgun from the armory when needed.

I had virtually the same loadout except we added; 1 ASP telescoping baton, 1 small can of Pepper Spray (generally worthless), 4 sets of flexi-cuffs (to secure doors during building searches while serving warrants & for group prisoner transports). We had door stops (used to "secure" doors during searches) and 4 pair of leg irons and manacles for prisoner transport in our vehicles (we used Ford LTD cruisers and Ford E150 Vans with cages for prisoner transports). We had access to 2 "shock belts," (a belt with a "stungun" located over the kidneys) for violent offenders and were just getting Tasers (worn crossdraw) when I left.

We also carried a couple of cans of Final Net hairspray in our vehicles. If you hosed down a perp with pepper mace; You would spray him down with Final Net and let it dry for a minute. This would prevent the mace from "vaporing" and irritating you in the cruiser. It also sealed the mace to the perp's body so you wouldn't have trouble hosing out the smell of the mace from the cruiser after you transported the perp.

[aspqrz]

Thanks, that meshes with a chunk of what I had sourced elsewhere! The differences would seem to be between more your urban areas and more rural ones (or Highway Patrol/State Police).

Phil

[CDAT]

Depending on the shift an unnamed federal agency would have up to eight officer on duty, and five command/admin staff that are commissioned, one non commissioned, may have up to three plain clothed investigator on site. Officer work three shifts, command staff only during days. Each officer carries a Sig P229 with three 13rd magazines, one ASP, two sets handcuff, and one can of OC. Investigators are issued the same as officers but most only carry pistol, and one spare magazine with small OC and one cuff. They also have in the armory issued as needed ten M4's, six Rem 870, two more 870 for beanbag (all 18 inch), 2 Colt 9mm SMG's, and one .30-06 with custom Tungsten AP ammo. In addition to the on duty staff they have a five man ERT team that can be called out by local command staff, each of them have the same as duty officer except that they have upped it to seven magazines, and one M4 with nine magazines. If needed they also have a district SRT team that they could ask to be sent to the area it is a twelve man team outfitted the same as the ERT with one 40mm gas, and two 12 gauge (14 inch 870). They are tasked with guarding a critical site, so do not patrol much except right around the building. They have one unmarked SUV, and if the SRT shows up they have three more. All officer have level 3A armor except for ERT/SRT who have level 4, and Kevlar helmets. As for extra ammo on site depends on how long ago was the order, normally order about 100,000 rds per year.

[swaghauler]

Depending on the shift an unnamed federal agency would have up to eight officer on duty, and five command/admin staff that are commissioned, one non commissioned, may have up to three plain clothed investigator on site. Officer work three shifts, command staff only during days. Each officer carries a Sig P229 with three 13rd magazines, one ASP, two sets handcuff, and one can of OC. Investigators are issued the same as officers but most only carry pistol, and one spare magazine with small OC and one cuff. They also have in the armory issued as needed ten M4's, six Rem 870, two more 870 for beanbag (all 18 inch), 2 Colt 9mm SMG's, and one .30-06 with custom Tungsten AP ammo. In addition to the on duty staff they have a five man ERT team that can be called out by local command staff, each of them have the same as duty officer except that they have upped it to seven magazines, and one M4 with nine magazines. If needed they also have a district SRT team that they could ask to be sent to the area it is a twelve man team outfitted the same as the ERT with one 40mm gas, and two 12 gauge (14 inch 870). They are tasked with guarding a critical site, so do not patrol much except right around the building. They have one unmarked SUV, and if the SRT shows up they have three more. All officer have level 3A armor except for ERT/SRT who have level 4, and Kevlar helmets. As for extra ammo on site depends on how long ago was the order, normally order about 100,000 rds per year.

Do you find Pepper spray to be nearly useless against a determined perp too? We had guys who used the stuff as Buffalo Wing seasoning....

[LT. Ox]

Do you find Pepper spray to be nearly useless against a determined perp too? We had guys who used the stuff as Buffalo Wing seasoning....

The best use I found for pepper spray was having the ability to tell a citizen that
"Yes you can use a non-lethal weapon to stop your average armed intruder bent on taking everything you own, it is called Pepper spray, just walk up to him and tell him to hold still while you spray it into his eyes."
The looks I received varied.
As a street Officer I never used it and wanted very much to kick the butt of the three or four brother Officers that did while assisting me or visa versa. Also every booking person at the jail had not so very nice things to say to and about those that brought in perps coated with the damn stuff.
I have found it very nice for spraying the door handles of vehicles present at College keggers that got out of hand. It is so much fun to stop behind a kid a little while later and offer him the use of a canteen to clear his eyes and ask, ever so politely of course, were you at the mini riot young man?

[Rockwolf66]

I had a girlfriend who stopped carrying pepper spray after it failed on her. Some scumbag jumped the counter where she was working and she sprayed him. That didn't stop him. However the hardwood and brass cane she used to help her walk doubled as a very effective club. Especially since she was trained in medieval combat and was quite strong for her size.

[.45cultist]

Do you find Pepper spray to be nearly useless against a determined perp too? We had guys who used the stuff as Buffalo Wing seasoning....

Did you see the video of the Canadian store owners, a pair of would-be robbers and a bear sized can of OC? they hosed them down like they were on fire, and beat one like a drum. It was good to watch.....

[CDAT]

Do you find Pepper spray to be nearly useless against a determined perp too? We had guys who used the stuff as Buffalo Wing seasoning....

My experience with Pepper spray is that how it affects people very from person to person. In the academy we had one guy who it was like water on him, a different one totally out of the fight. If it was up to me and I had to have a ranged less lethal I want a Tazer.

[LT. Ox]

My experience with Pepper spray is that how it affects people very from person to person. In the academy we had one guy who it was like water on him, a different one totally out of the fight. If it was up to me and I had to have a ranged less lethal I want a Tazer.

Never have I seen that not work when it hits. Being trained in its use is not laughs I do not think I will ever forget the effects.

[rcaf_777]

Did you see the video of the Canadian store owners, a pair of would-be robbers and a bear sized can of OC? they hosed them down like they were on fire, and beat one like a drum. It was good to watch.....

Under Canadian Law OC or personel defence spray is illegal to owe. However Bear Spray is fine

[Sanjuro]

The last time I did NBC training, there was a guy in the class who was immune to CS gas.
The gas in the chamber was particularly intense- even most of us who had one the course before were finding the exercises where you unmask at the end almost impossible. One guy then bet the staff he could walk the length of the chamber without his mask.
The staff assumed he meant to hold his breath, so to teach him a lesson they held the doors shut. We looked in the windows and he was smiling, talking away, moving about freely... weird.

[.45cultist]

Under Canadian Law OC or personel defence spray is illegal to owe. However Bear Spray is fine

It was better than the thieves' switchblades, as a bonus the PD said no charges for the owners, the two thieves won a stupid prize, hope they collected.
Everyone has given a lot of data to sort through, thanks! Maybe a couple more good things can come from this. BTW, after Sep. 11, 2001 there was an amnesty for non violent minor offenders in KCMo. A minor detail that could come in handy for city campaigns.

[swaghauler]

Never have I seen that not work when it hits. Being trained in its use is not laughs I do not think I will ever forget the effects.

I've taken "The 5 second ride" in training. We all did. It was a point of pride to do it. If your older or have a weak bladder I'd suggest emptying it before you do. We had one guy from the County Jail who couldn't live that down. My partner Chris got nicknamed "Chewy" because he sounded just like a Wookie when they tased him. The only thing that came close to being tased was when I got "flashbanged" playing a perp during a force-on-force exercise. It takes about 20 to 30 seconds to recover from that. Even the CS gas in basic doesn't equate to the misery a taser can dish out. Stunguns are poor cousins to Tasers. Your skin is a good insulator; So an attacker with a stungun has to strike you on a "pain compliant/pressure point" location to really cause you enough pain to stop your action. I found the belly button, back of knee, back of neck, elbow, groin or armpit to be the only really effective "stun points" using a stungun. A taser works everywhere on the body. I have also NEVER seen someone knocked unconscious by a stungun. A taser can do that (especially if the perp falls and hit's their head). It took me a GOOD five seconds to get up after the tasing. Getting the barbs taken out of you isn't fun either...exactly the same as having a fishhook removed....

[Targan]

Under Canadian Law OC or personel defence spray is illegal to owe. However Bear Spray is fine

Similarly stun guns and tazers are illegal for civilians to buy and own here, but cattle prods are just farm equipment - and I suspect would seriously ruin someone's day if they were hit with one.

[Legbreaker]

Not really powerful enough to my understanding - feel a little like bumping your elbow really hard. Not nice, but certainly not very debilitating.

[.45cultist]

Similarly stun guns and tazers are illegal for civilians to buy and own here, but cattle prods are just farm equipment - and I suspect would seriously ruin someone's day if they were hit with one.

Back in '75 me and my sister got into a fight, and she found out how much fun the electric prod was.....

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Yeah cattle prods can give you a bit of a shock, I learnt from personal experience.
No it's not like a tazer but it's enough to startle you and make muscles spasm - animal hide is tough enough to warrant a fair bit of juice in the prod!