2nd Marine Division Cannon

[mpipes]

What is the cannon regarding the 2nd Marine Divison's role in XI Corps' offensive? It seems to have to be somewhere NE of Kaliz. Torun is overrun, so it is north of there or maybe southeast?

[pmulcahy11b]

I believe they use M777 155mm Light Guns.:D

[LT. Ox]

I believe they use M777 155mm Light Guns.:D
Meds !!!! you forgot ta take em again.

[Targan]

Meds !!!! you forgot ta take em again.

Paul's making a play on words. Mpipes has written 'cannon' when the word he actually wants is 'canon'.

[pmulcahy11b]

Meds !!!! you forgot ta take em again.

How do you think I came up with my sig?:p

[pmulcahy11b]

Paul's making a play on words. Mpipes has written 'cannon' when the word he actually wants is 'canon'.

Yes!

Anyway, I don't think there's much...but let me look.

Here's from the American Combat Vehicle Handbook:

A prewar regular division stationed at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. The 6th Marine Regiment of the division deployed by air to Denmark in November of 1996. The 2nd Marine Regiment (reinforced) formed the main body of the 4th Marine Amphibious Brigade and deployed to Norway by air and sea in
December of 1996. The main body of the 8th Marine Regiment moved by sea to the Mediterranean Sea to join forward elements of the regiment then serving with the 6th Fleet.

During 1997, the regiments of the division carried out numerous amphibious and conventional missions throughout the European Theater. In October of that year, the 4th MAB was moved south to the Baltic and disbanded, its component units reverting to division control along with the 6th Regiment. In January of 1998, the survivors of the 8th Marine Regiment reformed in northern Germany and were also reunited with the division. In Spring of 2000, the division participated in the 3rd German Army's offensive into northern Poland by launching amphibious assaults against the Polish Baltic coast and across the estuary of the Vistula (Wisla). The division's present status and location are unknown.

Subordination: XI U.S. Corps
Current Location: Northern Poland
Manpower: 4000
Tanks: 8 M1 (The NATO Combat Vehicle Handbook also has a color plate showing a Leopard 3 wearing US Marine insignia.)

And that's about what I can find official. Also, however, search this board; other posters have posted more about the 2nd MarDiv.

[mpipes]

Thanks Paul. That was essentially what I thought, but I had not been able to really confirm that. So we're pretty much free to do what we want with the 2nd Marines as far as the offensive in July 2000.

[Marc]

What is the cannon regarding the 2nd Marine Divison's role in XI Corps' offensive? It seems to have to be somewhere NE of Kaliz. Torun is overrun, so it is north of there or maybe southeast?

You will find some interesting suppositions and suggestions in this thread, too:

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=354

[Legbreaker]

Note that my assessment in that thread is based 100% on canon materials, includes 100% of that material, and the additional information extrapolated from canon in a way that imho fits all the pieces together in the most logical way. It may not be totally correct, but it is the best fit to my judgement.
I have been working for some time on detailing the 2nd MARDIV further, but with so little information available, most of that is pure guesswork - probably dozens of other valid interpretations besides mine, likely more.

[Legbreaker]

This might also help http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2479

[Raellus]

Here's my take on what at least part of 2nd MarDiv was up to during the Summer 2000 offensive.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2703

Incidentally, canon has the 2nd MarDiv start (per the U.S. Army Vehicle Guide) and end (per Going Home) in the same city. Furthermore, Going Home mentions that 2nd MarDiv ended up stronger and more diverse after the offensive. No explanation for this is given, however.

[Olefin]

It is implied that the Marines picked up various stragglers and remnants from all kinds of units - including armored vehicles as well - considering the chaos of the aftermath of the summer offensive I could easily see Germans who got separated from their units, pro-NATO Poles and Soviets, possibly cut off Danes from the Danish unit that was part of the summer offensive. Add in Ukrainians who may have abandoned their Soviet units as well and you could see why they grew in size (let alone absorbing 5th Division men who managed to get away to the north and join up withe Marines)

As for all the nationalities - even before they started they may have had Norwegians, Finns and Brits who may have joined up with the Marines from when they were in Norway and Finland - makes for one heck of a group.

[CDAT]

It is implied that the Marines picked up various stragglers and remnants from all kinds of units - including armored vehicles as well - considering the chaos of the aftermath of the summer offensive I could easily see Germans who got separated from their units, pro-NATO Poles and Soviets, possibly cut off Danes from the Danish unit that was part of the summer offensive. Add in Ukrainians who may have abandoned their Soviet units as well and you could see why they grew in size (let alone absorbing 5th Division men who managed to get away to the north and join up withe Marines)

As for all the nationalities - even before they started they may have had Norwegians, Finns and Brits who may have joined up with the Marines from when they were in Norway and Finland - makes for one heck of a group.

This could be a very interesting game to play (being part of this). My first deployment my Army unit got attached to the USMC. They keep sending us tasking for missions that we could not do. Or more specifically could not do them all at once like they wanted, we could do them one at a time. The issue as it turns out is that Army Combat Engineers are outfitted very differently than Marine Combat Engineers, and no matter how many times we told them what equipment and troops we had they keep thinking that we were staffed and equipped the same as a marine unit. It probably did not help that even in the Army they are not all equipped the same. We were a core wheeled support combat engineer unit, so had three platoons of Combat Engineers with three dump trucks each platoon. And one support platoon with bulldozers, graders, front end loaders, and crains. I do not know how Marine engineers are normally outfitted, but when they found out we had equipment they would do things like task us to send our dozers out to six or seven locations at once, we only had two, and when we told them that they said things like I understand but you have four platoons so that is two per right.

So anyway like I said that could be a very interesting game if set in the proper time. The longer it goes the less formal the standards would be, but early one the confusion factor could be played for fun. I think (may be wrong as it is based on hearsay) that the marines run three, three man fire teams per squad. If that is the case it could be something simple as the young marine LT telling one of the other forces have your first fire team flank them, your second provide a base of fire and third assault the objective, or they get told that they are being sent four fire teams for assistance, only to find out that each fire team is six strong.

[Olefin]

it could even be that the Marines picked up members who wanted to associated with the Marines - i.e. even as screwed up as things are by 2000 the US Marine Corps is still the Corps, with its traditions and mythology - you could see people who want to hang onto something want to be part of that - so various remnants of other units join up with the Marines wanting to be part of the whole tradition - in other words the Marines in Poland almost becoming like the French Foreign Legion as to not caring where you come from as long as you are loyal to the Legion

[Raellus]

Another way the 2nd MarDiv could have grown after the failed summer 2000 offensive is if naval elements that had lost their vessels during said operations were then attached to Marine units.

[Olefin]

Another way the 2nd MarDiv could have grown after the failed summer 2000 offensive is if naval elements that had lost their vessels during said operations were then attached to Marine units.

I agree completely - thats one way I had the Marines in Africa get reinforcements - they recruited and trained men from ships that had been sunk or so badly damaged that they had to be abandoned - not every sailor can make the grade as a Marine but its a great way to add numbers to the division - and they would have time in the cantonment to fully train those who joined up as Marine riflemen

[Legbreaker]

Another way the 2nd MarDiv could have grown after the failed summer 2000 offensive is if naval elements that had lost their vessels during said operations were then attached to Marine units.

Exactly as postulated in previous threads.

[mpipes]

A bit of topic but nevertheless a somewhat humorous and yet historical event involving the Army operating with the Marines.

My uncle was a Marine at Guadalcanal. My uncle's unit was holding a section of line during the day and being replaced by Army troops during the night. The Army troops were retreating back during the night, forcing the Marines to recapture the same ground several times. Finally, they were holding territory on the far side of a small river, when it was once again time for the Army troops to relieve them. After the Army got across the river, the Marines blew up the bridge!! Left with no retreat route, the Army was finally forced to fight "like Marines" and held the line, so the next day the Marines took up the same position with no need to recapture ground and pressed on the next day.

Thought folks here would like that.