Mortar's

[kcdusk]

Is anyone using mortars in their games? To what effect? Size?

[Legbreaker]

They're not exactly practical for smaller groups, same with most other types of artillery. However, I've never seen a group that didn't have at least one in their arsenal.
Usually there's a lack of forward observers too in my experience.

[aspqrz]

But, theoretically, mind, you could rig them up like some of the 'Gun Mortars' used on some modern French armoured cars, and use them in direct fire mode as well. Theoretically.

Phil

[pmulcahy11b]

And remember, firing a Grenade Launcher is nothing like firing a mortar. There should be a separate skill.

[Legbreaker]

And remember, firing a Grenade Launcher is nothing like firing a mortar. There should be a separate skill.

True. Something like Indirect Fire Weapons that allows the laying and firing of mortars, light artillery, tripod mounted machineguns and automatic grenade launchers at targets using maps, compass, and sights such as the C2A1, along with various electronic aids.

[dragoon500ly]

Truly, anything above 60mm is a waste of a player groups time, although watching the antics of players trying to set up a 120mm during an ambush can be amusing!

[Legbreaker]

Not as much fun as watching them debus from a vehicle while still in the kill zone to assault across several hundred metres of open ground on foot.
Yeah, that works out well....

[Adm.Lee]

I remember in a Merc game, my PC shooting a 60mm mortar at a barracks.
- First shot? Over.
- 2nd shot? short.
- Other PCs: "Why are we waiting for this? Look, they're starting to come out of the barracks now! Let's open up and get in there!"
- Third shot? Right through the roof, adjacent to the front door, where the bad guys were arming and rushing for the door. Lots and lots of die-rolling, for damage and fragments and more damage.
- Me: "That's why we're waiting. Now go and collect their surrender."

I can think of another game, I was GM, where the PCs barrelled into an ambush, which had 120mm mortars covering the kill zone. That really spooked the PCs, and they drove away really fast, despite having some armor.

But yeah, most of the time, IF weapons, beyond grenade-launchers, weren't really used.

[Legbreaker]

That reminds me of another time with another group going through Ruins of Warsaw.
The PCs had set up a meet with an arms dealer and shown up with a truck and LAV-75 to make the trade. Naturally things went bad and the merchant's covering force opened up with a mortar firing chemical rounds (those in the meeting had gas masks on their belts). First shot hit the LAV on the glacis resulted in absolute panic on the part of the PCs (they ran away as fast as they could).
One of the players had all of his characters after that wear a chem suit 24/7 - and his character at the time had been safely tucked away in the LAV!

[LT. Ox]

That reminds me of another time with another group going through Ruins of Warsaw.
The PCs had set up a meet with an arms dealer and shown up with a truck and LAV-75 to make the trade. Naturally things went bad and the merchant's covering force opened up with a mortar firing chemical rounds (those in the meeting had gas masks on their belts). First shot hit the LAV on the glacis resulted in absolute panic on the part of the PCs (they ran away as fast as they could).
One of the players had all of his characters after that wear a chem suit 24/7 - and his character at the time had been safely tucked away in the LAV!

Now in the 2020 merc game I may need one of those suites..... How to get item have and chem scare. yes that should work

[aspqrz]

One of the players had all of his characters after that wear a chem suit 24/7 - and his character at the time had been safely tucked away in the LAV!

I know MOPP suits are only good for a relatively short period after the plastic wrap they come in is opened ... 24 hours or until taken off, whichever is the lesser is the best figure I have seen ...

(However, I know as a Company Sig back in the day we were ordered to break the batteries of our AN/PRC-25 Radios in two on something hard when we replaced them every, 24 hours?, to prevent them being from being reused ... the implication being that they were rated for longer periods of use ... so maybe its the same with MOPP suits).

Then there are the filters on the Gas Mask - again, change every 24 hours.

So wearing them all the time would be ... expensive. Dying would be cheaper :D

Phil

[Legbreaker]

Meanwhile we were using our "dead" batteries to charge up the PALs (Patrol Ambush Light). Can't remember the exact details, but I think it was 24 hours on the battery gave ten minutes of absolutely BLINDING light.

[copeab]

Unless you have a large party, one of the commando mortars would be most appropriate. Not as accurate as a normal light mortar, but much more portable and normally operated by one man.

[Olefin]

have had several different groups that had mortars - and you are right you need larger parties to handle them - the most we ever had (and this was my first campaign where we ended up having our party getting enough 5th division guys out that we had quite the time feeding and transporting everyone) was two 81mm mortars, one 60mm mortar and two 120mm mortars that we captured - with the 120's almost never being used

[rcaf_777]

France, UK, Canada and Belgium have infantry/light mortars that are used at the platoon level. They usually have a crew of two.

I was my platoon mortar man when I was infantry. Canada had the M19 Light Mortar which I carried and hated it there was nothing light about it. It’s a 60mm Mortar it only took a crew of one to operate, the number two was basically the ammo carrier. As my unit was light infantry (IE no wheels) additional ammo was spread out thought the platoon. Spotting was always difficult if you were lucky you or your number were mortar qualified and were able to spot rounds effectively. Since my reserve unit was not designated to have a Mortar Platoon, I was usually out of luck.

Mostly theses mortars were used for laying smoke to cover platoon movements. The only time I remember using HE was for defensive ops and I had the large base plate and the bipod.

[LT. Ox]

France, UK, Canada and Belgium have infantry/light mortars that are used at the platoon level. They usually have a crew of two.

I was my platoon mortar man when I was infantry. Canada had the M19 Light Mortar which I carried and hated it there was nothing light about it. It’s a 60mm Mortar it only took a crew of one to operate, the number two was basically the ammo carrier. As my unit was light infantry (IE no wheels) additional ammo was spread out thought the platoon. Spotting was always difficult if you were lucky you or your number were mortar qualified and were able to spot rounds effectively. Since my reserve unit was not designated to have a Mortar Platoon, I was usually out of luck.

Mostly theses mortars were used for laying smoke to cover platoon movements. The only time I remember using HE was for defensive ops and I had the large base plate and the bipod.

The 60's were dropped during my time in Viet Nam as the wonderful M-79 and LAW was to supplant them. I liked the law and loved the M-79 but the loss of the 60's as company support was felt big time.
I operated as an FO and we could get support in a hurry "most" times and it was on target "most" times just not as fast nor as on target as company level 60's.
when your getting fired on BY light mortars you want to counter battery [U][I]right now!![I][U] not after a bit of radio chatter.

[Ancestor]

I don't use them for the PCs but against them it is a real threat, especially if they don't have armor. We just played one of the best gaming sessions of my RPG career. But all it entailed was the PC's plus an NPC forward observer trying to find and then take out a Russian mortar team. The session was about 1 and 1/2 hours and it was really tense. And I stuck religiously to the V.1 rules. It's funny b/c the PCs and their associated NPCs are Infantry. We've played PC's vs T-72 tank, PC's vs mob, and PC's vs sniper scenarios and every time they've taken mercy on any captured wounded. This time, once they located the enemy 82, killed one of the bad guys team and wounded the other three I asked them what they wanted to do with the survivors. The company commander PC said shoot them and the 1SG PC said I'll do it myself.

[swaghauler]

I know MOPP suits are only good for a relatively short period after the plastic wrap they come in is opened ... 24 hours or until taken off, whichever is the lesser is the best figure I have seen ...

(However, I know as a Company Sig back in the day we were ordered to break the batteries of our AN/PRC-25 Radios in two on something hard when we replaced them every, 24 hours?, to prevent them being from being reused ... the implication being that they were rated for longer periods of use ... so maybe its the same with MOPP suits).

Then there are the filters on the Gas Mask - again, change every 24 hours.

So wearing them all the time would be ... expensive. Dying would be cheaper :D

Phil

I have heard this claim before (in my own unit). Actually the MOPP suit was good for two years from the date you remove it from the packaging (provided it was NOT washed). It was good for only 24 hours IN THE ACTUAL NBC ENVIRONMENT before it began to fail to provide protection from the threat. This is also the life expectancy of the hood on your gas mask. This could prove interesting if you were to get "hung up" in an NBC environment. Loiter too long and your MOPP suit fails. They also fail rather quickly if they get completely saturated with water. A major downside to NBC ops in bad weather.

[swaghauler]

The problem with IF in Twilight2000 is that the authors were using very outdated information. The accuracy limits for IF are an example. The CEP (Circular Error, Probable) fell below the blast radius of most mortars in the early 90's. The key factors would be:
1. Does the FO know EXACTLY where he is in the world (say by GPS)?
2. Does the FO know the EXACT DISTANCE to the target (say because he used a laser range finder or ranging binoculars to measure it)?
If the answer to these two questions is "yes," then the target is in a heap of trouble because it is a fairly simple math problem to compute the target grid coordinates. I would propose the following rules for IF in Twilight:

-If the FO has a GPS (with signal), a Laser Range Finder, and can "pre-plot" his fire, then his chance to hit is EASY:FO.
-If the FO has a GPS (with signal), Stadiametric Ranging Binoculars, and can "pre-plot" his fire OR a Grid map and Laser Range Finder, and can "pre-plot" his fire, then his chance to hit is AVE:FO.
-If the FO has a Grid Map, Stadiametric Ranging Binoculars, and can "pre-plot" his fire, then his chance to hit is DIF:FO.
-If the FO has a Grid Map but no reliable method of "ranging" the target (he must "eyeball" it), and can "pre-plot" his fire, then his chance to hit is FRM:FO.
-If the FO has neither a Grid Map or a method of "ranging" the target, then his chance to hit is IMP:FO (whether he "pre-plots" or not).

"Pre-plotting" takes about 30 seconds. If the FO cannot "pre-plot" the fire, then the GM should reduce his chance to hit by one level, for calling fire "on the fly" (don't laugh at this, many good FO's could do that VERY well).
An FO who is forced to "guestimate" the range to the target due to a lack of equipment, can increase their chance to hit by one level with a DIF:OBSERVATION roll.

The to hit roll for the fire should be recorded and the difference between the chance to hit and the actual roll should be subtracted from the round's deviation roll. Missed to hit rolls should have the difference between the chance to hit and the actual roll ADDED to the round's deviation roll.

I also have a system for NPCs taking fire and maintaining combat flow. When you roll the number of hits from Fragmentation, you add this to any blast/concussion damage the round might do. Each DIE of Concussion and each frag HIT is compared to an NPC's CON value with the following results.
-If the NPC takes a number of concussion DICE + Frag HITS equal to his CON or less, he is still in the fight with a Slight wound.
-If the NPC takes 2 X CON in Concussion DICE + Frag HITS, he suffers a Serious Wound.
-If the NPC takes 3 X CON in Concussion DICE + Frag HITS, he suffers a Critical Wound.
-If the NPC takes 4 X CON in Concussion DICE + Frag HITS, he is killed.

This will help you quickly resolve artillery or heavy weapons fire into groups of NPCs and still allow the players the feeling that they are in control of the results of Indirect Fire during play.

[pmulcahy11b]

At the mech and light units I've been, the mortars went into the Weapons Platoon; the difference between mech and light is that the mech units have 120mm (then 4.2") mortars, and in the light units, they had 81s.

At the 82nd, there were also 81s in the Weapons Platoon. It addition, each platoon had their own 60mm, with a gunner, assistant gunner assigned to tend to the mortar. I don't remember how many rounds the crew had, but most of the platoon carried 1-4 rounds for the mortar.

[Targan]

A bit OT, but this sounds good:

Marines get new mortar in Iraq (http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/12/07/marines-get-new-mortar-iraq-protect-base/76744908/)

[Legbreaker]

Given the lack of GPS and other electronic devices in working order in T2K, I'm good with the relative inaccuracy of indirect fire. Basically without all the high tech gadgets, just how accurate, first round, is it really going to get?

[swaghauler]

Given the lack of GPS and other electronic devices in working order in T2K, I'm good with the relative inaccuracy of indirect fire. Basically without all the high tech gadgets, just how accurate, first round, is it really going to get?

It depends on how accurate he is in determining where he is on the map. His grid coordinates are the base he uses for determining the enemy's grid coordinates. The more accurate his location and his "ranging" of the enemy, the more accurate the fire. This plays out very harshly where "registration" has occurred. Registration is when an FO "confirms" his initial plot by firing rounds on the location. Emplaced units will probably have registered key points like bridges and road junctions and even set up pre-arranged fire missions on these locations. An example would be the FO saying "Fire Mission on road juncture 1!" over the radio, and the mortar team dropping 4 rounds in a box pattern on that road. This should give one pause before they launch an assault on say...Krakow.

[Legbreaker]

So that boils down to the FO skill of the spotter and the skill of the person laying the weapon also.

[kcdusk]

It depends on how accurate he is in determining where he is on the map. His grid coordinates are the base he uses for determining the enemy's grid coordinates.

If you have a map, you'd highly likely have grid co-ords, yes? And if your a FO, you would have a pretty natural feel for your location and distance to enemy? So even in a T2K world, you would at least have this base covered, yes?

What i mean is, the first shot would be reasonably accurate?

[James Langham2]

I would suggest that the main uses were:

(a) illumination - something we often overlook in these days of extensive night vision gear

(b) smoke - in armies without GLs (such as the British pre the UGL) this is vital

It is worth noting that in the UK it was planned to withdraw the 51mm mortar on issue of the UGL but in fact there is now an urgent operational requirement to replace it with a 60mm mortar on operational use.

[LT. Ox]

Given the lack of GPS and other electronic devices in working order in T2K, I'm good with the relative inaccuracy of indirect fire. Basically without all the high tech gadgets, just how accurate, first round, is it really going to get?

I some times wonder just how much "live fire" practice could be done with ammo stocks they way they must be leading to just how good your teams can be?
Just thinken

[Legbreaker]

I some times wonder just how much "live fire" practice could be done with ammo stocks they way they must be leading to just how good your teams can be?
Just thinken

Agreed. By the time of 2000, our game setting, how many properly qualified and experienced mortar and artillerymen are there left? Counter-battery fire is a bitch, not to mention radiation, starvation, bullets, rockets, exposure, etc every survivor is bound to have been exposed to.

Granted the will to live is a good teacher, but crew served weapons require a bit more training, practice and coordination than a "simple" rifle or machinegun. Those few pre/early war qualified "dropshorts", while probably pretty good, are going to be in short supply and a little out of practice as ammo grows ever shorter.

With the degradation of communications, loss of satnav/GPS systems, and wearing out of virtually everything else, it's unlikely in the extreme that the accuracy IRL of today, or even 15 years ago, would be even close to achievable.

[.45cultist]

In V1 there was a module or Challenge adventure where the artillery was manned by veterans found in refugee camps. Perhaps it was "Rock in Troubled Waters" article that supported "Armies of the Night". Those were 105's, but the principle is the same for other systems, especially stored older stock.

[Legbreaker]

Challenge #34 has a good article on mortars but nothing in it as far as rules, etc.

From "Rock in troubled waters", Challenge #42
301st Independent Battery: This unit is currently providing fire support for Cape May Naval Base, staffed with 80 ex-military "graybeards" culled from the refugees. In addition to small arms, the unit has three M202 howitzers and six 120mm mortars salvaged from national guard and army reserve armouries.
There's nothing else in the article re old artillery systems.

[copeab]

I some times wonder just how much "live fire" practice could be done with ammo stocks they way they must be leading to just how good your teams can be?
Just thinken

Some mortars have refurbishable training rounds.

[pmulcahy11b]

Some mortars have refurbishable training rounds.

Oh yes, we did a week with those on a miniature town in AIT. They are sabot rounds, with a cast iron body and a 20mm sabot round in the core which causes a flash when it goes off so you can see where you hit. We made a game of trying to run downrange and catch the body (which didn't go nearly as far), until somebody got hurt (cut his hand on the fin). If you didn't get a satisfactory score on the mock range, you became an 11B. (I didn't become an 11B until my second AIT a few years later.)

The sabot comes completely out of the body a second or so after firing; it's mostly there to allow us to get used the weight and handling of the round. The instructor sergeant just popped in a sabot, gave it to us, and when the body was returned, popped in a new sabot.

The 20mm sabots are simple, so I would guess a reasonable-sized community could make then.

[Legbreaker]

We had the same sort of thing for the M72 LAW - a 20mm (might have been 22mm - it's been 20+ years) rocket inside an insert in the fibreglass casing. Not exactly an AT round, but you still wouldn't want to get hit by it!

The 84mm Carl Gustav also has/had a training round using a 7.62mm tracer (I think). Absolutely NOTHING like firing real rounds, but it was useful for practising your aim and actually hitting the target before being allowed anywhere near the rather more expensive HEAT rounds (something like $10,000 per shot I think).

A mate of mine was working collecting shopping trolleys and was teased for doing what was seen as a dead end, low pay job. He shut them up quick when he mentioned he'd just blown through $100,000.00 of ammo on the weekend as a reservist. :p

[Draq]

Artillery and aircraft can only clear/destroy an objective, only boots on the ground can take and hold one.

[CDAT]

Oh yes, we did a week with those on a miniature town in AIT. They are sabot rounds, with a cast iron body and a 20mm sabot round in the core which causes a flash when it goes off so you can see where you hit. We made a game of trying to run downrange and catch the body (which didn't go nearly as far), until somebody got hurt (cut his hand on the fin). If you didn't get a satisfactory score on the mock range, you became an 11B. (I didn't become an 11B until my second AIT a few years later.)

The sabot comes completely out of the body a second or so after firing; it's mostly there to allow us to get used the weight and handling of the round. The instructor sergeant just popped in a sabot, gave it to us, and when the body was returned, popped in a new sabot.

The 20mm sabots are simple, so I would guess a reasonable-sized community could make then.

They also have full size inert warhead rounds (sand, concrete, and/or puff charge) . I have never been in mortars or artillery. But I was EOD, and we spend a fair amount of time down range looking at ordinance in the wild. We would practice different TTPs on the, we found a lot of 155mm with the shipping plugs still in them, and 81mm mortars that just had a puff charge, could easily be reused with new fuze and powder rings.

[pmulcahy11b]

Artillery and aircraft can only clear/destroy an objective, only boots on the ground can take and hold one.

Definitely true. Though air, artillery, and tank backup is always appreciated.

[Legbreaker]

Provided of course it's on target, otherwise it's ineffective at best, catastrophic at worst.

[jester]

I once drew up a Mortarman for a game. I had him retain the cannon with the M8 small square baseplate the sights and about a dozen mortar rounds with a M4 and small amount of ammo plus bipod. Spend some time trying to recall how many rounds the vest for mortarmen carried.

I myself trained as a mortarman, was made a rifleman for a few years then transferred back to mortars.

With the current 60mm mortar with the trigger, with an M8 baseplate, the built in level for ranger near the trigger, one man can fire the system and keep it on target easily with line of sight and even with a decent spotter.

In some of my games, I have gifted my players with 120mms or 105s and they created havoc with a decent amount of WP or even worse RP. Once on target you can do ALOT of damage.

Remember the scene in Kellys heroes? Where they bribe the mortar section to lay down fire so they can get through? Anyone under mortar fire will take cover and give you a chance to move in. And with the 60mm used in LIGHT units, it is man portable. In my unit, we carried them fully assembled less the round baseplate which was easily positioned, then the ball from the guntube locked in, bipods splayed and aimed in. Easy peasy! For us, we could do a large gun deflection in the max time for a minor, and for a minor, under 9 seconds was the norm.

If you folks aren't using mortars, you are missing out.

[rcaf_777]

Given the lack of GPS and other electronic devices in working order in T2K

How do you figure that?

The Original Block I GPS was deactivated on 9 October 1985, but the last Block I satellite was not taken out of service until 18 November 1995, well past its 5 year design life.

http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/navstar.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA-85

The first of the nine satellites in the initial Block II series was launched February 14, 1989; the last was launched October 1, 1990. The final satellite of the series to be taken out of service was decommissioned on March 15, 2007, well past its 7.5 year design life.

ftp://tycho.usno.navy.mil/pub/gps/gpsb2.txt

Originally launched between 1997 and 2009 to add capabilities to the GPS constellation and to replace other aging satellites, today 12 GPS IIR and eight IIR-M satellites – designed and built by Lockheed Martin -- help deliver precise positioning, navigation and timing services to more than one billion global military, civilian and commercial users every day. These satellites represent about two-thirds of the current GPS constellation.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/gps.html
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?Do=constellationStatus&srt=Type&dir=Asc

As for other electronic devices, military stuff will be hardened against EMP as are radios. Batteries would be the biggest problem, but some items could run on recharged batteries

It’s implied in the game that some systems may be damaged in the nuclear war but not actual written out.

GPS and other electronic devices are not talked about in the game a lot because under the original concept they don't serve a purpose.

GPS: Yes a GPS when you’re trapped behind enemy lines is great but, the PC's are on there own nobody coming to rescue them. A GPS will only tell you where you are and which way to go…but so will a MAP. This is why you don't see GPS or a Compass in the Basic Equipment Section

Radios: Beyond communicating between PC's and Vehicle to Vehicle, a radio doesn’t play a big role in Game play either. Most vehicle radios have ranges of 30-50 km but what would the PC’s do with a Long Range SATCOM radio? Contact Corps HQ which would say or do what?

In short it’s not practical for game play not because it’s not working.

[Legbreaker]

How do you figure that?

Umm, "Satellite Down" and almost everything in it.

Just one quote (of many): Now, during the height of the war, just about every satellite on both sides was knocked down or rendered worthless junk.

[rcaf_777]

[QUOTE=Legbreaker;69038]Umm, "Satellite Down" and almost everything in it.[QUOTE]

No Satellite Down is about a group of PC's that are trying to track down DP 201 which fell to earth, they only mention of other satellites is in the opening player brief given by Colonel Darren Darvish USA which says "Now, during the height of the war, just about every satellite on both sides was knocked down or rendered worthless junk" Page 4

Nowhere else dose it given any other details, not in satellite down or any other publication I looked at. In Version 2.2 at the bottom of page 14, it mention spaces stations being abandoned but not any satellite being shot out of the sky.

Now as for Colonel Darren Darvish saying "Now, during the height of the war, just about every satellite on both sides was knocked down or rendered worthless junk" How would they know if ever other satellite has been knock out, if you have no satellite to confirm this? or are a group USAF Officers watching the skies from the ground with a telescope.

There are also many other issues that both the Soviets and US would have overcome to knock every other satellite in Low, Mid and High orbit. And why would the Soviet Union waste a Anti-satellite weapon just to knock out Telstar 401 out of commission is Fox News that offensive?

Please post your reply in a new thread so we don't over take this one, and do list your pages number for your many quotes I'm sure you will find.

[Legbreaker]

There's LOTS of information in there actually.On 13 November 1995, the Soviet Union launched the last of its high-orbiting weather-tracking satellites, named DP 201. With the widening of hostilities, the expected life of such a satellite was less than a few days. Still this device managed to survive longer, dodging even the most adamant attempts to destroy it, for reasons which have never been completely understood.

When the United States employed its orbital ASAT (antisatellite) network, it had suffered years of battles in Congress and hundreds of budget cuts. Still, what finally was put into space functioned well enough. Most Soviet spy satellites were downed in the first few months of conflict. Likewise, the USSR also made use of advanced space technology in the downing of most of America's surveillance systems in orbit. The war was a simple one of attrition: one in which neither side had an upper hand or really hoped to win.

Despite all these odds, DP 201 stayed in space, taking its pictures of all the world's weather patterns and trends, dutifully recording all information it was exposed to. It was originally designed to monitor the ozone and jet stream patterns, as well as other wind and weather patterns, but this role was expanded as time passed and more nuclear weapons were launched by both sides. The spread of fallout across the world determined which countries were to survive, and during the peak of the nuclear exchange, DP 201 was hovering over the world tracking the weather patterns.

The satellite would have given the Soviets a strong advantage during reconstruction of their nation if not for a crippling shot by one of the few automated SDI systems still in space.
While this specifically talks about US ASAT weapons and capabilities, is it really inconceivable that the Soviets didn't have something similar?
Why would both sides be so desperate to recover one downed satellite if ANYONE had anything still up in orbit?
It just doesn't make ANY sense for operational satellites to still exist and be available for GPS.

We also know from the background materials (all versions) that "orbiting space laboratories, are abandoned as the war drags on".

Also from the nuclear target lists: "Vandenbelp AFS. CA: Recon satellite launch facilities (1 Mt ground burst)", "Spacefight Center, Cape Canaveral FL: Recon satellite launch facilities (1 MT ground burst)", "Houston, TX: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.5 Mt)", "Plesetsk, RSFSR: Recon satellite launching facilities (1 Mt)", "Leninsk·Tyuralam, KSSR: Recon satellite launching facilities (2 Mt)", and "KapustJn Yar, RSFSR: Secondary satellite launching facilities (500 Kt)". There may be other control and launch sites I don't know about, but how likely is it any would have been missed given the extreme value of satellites?

As if that isn't enough, and perhaps more relevant to the thread than all the above: The M1A2 in the current version of the game is the actual current production variant, and is undoubtedly the most capable tank in the world, particularly if it is operating with its supporting data networks and GPS satellites in place. In a post-holocaust world, of course, those capabilities are considerably degraded, but it's still a very tough tank.

GPS is dead in T2K, plain and simple.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And something more important about satellites, they need constant monitoring to ensure they stay in the proper orbit.
For GPS satellites, it's critical and they also need their atomic clocks monitored to ensure that they stay aligned with Earth time (because both General and Special Relativity mess with them).
Once a few of them start to drift, so does your GPS navigation. Typically, a GPS receiver will get info from four satellites but it can happily make do with three - once the third satellite starts to drift, you are shit outta luck.

With the loss of personnel to control/maintain them, any high altitude EMP interfering with them, damaged satellites and other debris hitting them and no space programme to correct any problems, GPS would lose needed accuracy within a few weeks to a month and probably be totally dead within one to two years.

[Legbreaker]

And that SSC, was going to be my very next point on why GPS is dead in T2K. :)

[rcaf_777]

See new thread

[Olefin]

I would think that rounds for the smaller mortars would actually be plentiful, but that many of them may be coming from the facilities like the one in Krakow (Wojo's)- i.e. the small machine shop kind of ammo facilities that were still operational after the 1997 strikes

thus you may have 12 rounds for your 60mm mortar but possibly only one or two of them may be pre-war and the rest may not be the up to the same quality standards considering the source

[Legbreaker]

I think you're probably right there. Reliability issues are dealt with in the 1st ed heavy weapons book with a flat 10% chance of blowing up in your face or not detonating at all.
Still, 9 rounds out of ten working as intended isn't too bad, provided you don't mind loosing a few mortarmen along the way... ::cool:

[Bullet Magnet]

I think you're probably right there. Reliability issues are dealt with in the 1st ed heavy weapons book with a flat 10% chance of blowing up in your face or not detonating at all.
Still, 9 rounds out of ten working as intended isn't too bad, provided you don't mind loosing a few mortarmen along the way... ::cool:

There should probably be a little chart for that. After the 10% chance of failure as noted above, to account for the possible results. Things to include might be:
Dud Mortar - does not detonate upon reaching target
Insufficient Propelling Charge - reduced range (of course, they won't know this until they use the round)
Dud Propelling Charge - either not launching at all, or only travels a couple meters before coming back to the ground (with the round detonating as if it had reached intended target)
Overloaded Propelling Charge - round explodes in tube, causing injury to crew and anyone unfortunate enough to be in the blast radius

Those are just my ideas. I'll point out my experience with mortars is limited to seeing them used in a few movies. I'll leave it to someone who has first hand experience to correct me where I'm wrong, and to provide more accurate or clearer information. (and maybe to suggest odds of any of these events occurring)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That's a great idea!
Other results could be: -
Overloaded Propelling Charge - round travels 1.5 times the actually intended distance but otherwise functions normally.
Slow Fuse - round fires and travels as intended but fuze doesn't work as intended, round sits where it landed and detonates 2D6 (seconds, minutes, hours?) later.
Dud Shell part 2 - "Did that round feel a little light?", round wasn't packed with any explosive charge other than the propellant, propellant and fuze work as intended but there's nothing to make it go "boom".
Sensitive Fuze - fuze activates while round is in flight causing shell to explode somewhere along its trajectory


I tried to think up enough possibilities to make a d10 chart when added to yours but I'm still two results short :(

[bobcat]

QC would be variable for post war munitions. Mortar,Goose Gun, and RPG rounds made by people who have been doing it for more than a year would generally be fairly reliablemaybe a D100 or D20 failure rate, less then a year D10, brand new facility with rookies D4

[Legbreaker]

Available chemicals and other materials make a big difference too. Using unstable chemicals for the explosive, or substandard metal for casings for example.
You use what's available and pay the consequences later (well, those on the firing line do anyway!)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

ArmySGT kindly sent me some other suggestions for mortar ammo failure and that easily gives us a quick & dirty d10 table to scare Players with :D
I particularly wanted a d10 chart so we wouldn't have to use a die not already used for the game so again, thanks ArmySGT :)

So we'd be looking at something like this (no particular order): -
01 - Dud Mortar - does not detonate upon reaching target
02 - Insufficient Propelling Charge - reduced range (of course, they won't know this until they use the round)
03 - Dud Propelling Charge - either not launching at all, or only travels a couple meters before coming back to the ground (with the round detonating as if it had reached intended target)
04 - Overloaded Propelling Charge - round explodes in tube, causing injury to crew and anyone unfortunate enough to be in the blast radius
05 - Overloaded Propelling Charge - round travels 1.5 times the actually intended distance but otherwise functions normally.
06 - Slow Fuse - round fires and travels as intended but fuze doesn't work as intended, round sits where it landed and detonates 2D6 (seconds, minutes, hours?) later.
07 - Dud Shell part 2 - "Did that round feel a little light?", round wasn't packed with any (or the wrong) explosive charge other than the propellant, propellant and fuze work as intended but there's nothing to make it properly go "boom".
08 - Sensitive Fuze - fuze activates while round is in flight causing shell to explode somewhere along its trajectory (maybe use d100 to determine percentage of trajectory travelled before detonation with 01 and 100 both being just at the muzzle of the tube?)
09 - Body and fins separate after launch - explosive filled body tumbles in flight landing 1d6x50 meters short of the target in a random direct (1d12 clock face)
10 - Bomb casing breaks apart after launch scattering the explosives in pea sized bits over a 50x50 meter area.

[Legbreaker]

What about using 2d6 or even 2d10 to create a bell curve with common and relatively benign failures (dud round for example) sitting around the middle of the order, and the truly nasty and catastrophic ones (explodes in tube) at the end(s)?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Absolutely no reason why not.
From memory aren't d6 prone to giving a more defined bell curve than d10 and d20? If so it's probably worth using 3d6 in preference to 2d10 (or even 2d6), to place the more desirable (or the more likely) events within the bell curve peak and the less desirable events at the base.

With all this input I think we're about 75% of the way towards a workable faults table for post-war manufactured mortar ammo.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

ArmySGT has sent me some more suggestions for the faults table. At some point when real life stops bothering me, I'll try to put together a chart that takes advantage of the bell curve property of dice rolling as per Legbreaker's suggestion. While this table has been specifically made in relation to mortar shells, with a little tinkering it should be usable for other forms of artillery.



Slow Burn... On impact, the casing breaks in two at the ogive . The explosive filler burns (no detonation) in a bright furious geyser of blinding white fire and throws off sparks. 50% chance of igniting combustible materials in a 5 meter radius.

Bad fins or imbalanced casting.... The shell fires as normal but, cannot be stabilized in flight by a imperfect casting. The random rules for a miss apply, triple the distance for a catastrophic failure.

Intentional ..... The manufacturer substituted the explosive filler for clay. Whether, to save money or hide failures may not be known. There cannot be a detonation on impact.

Fuse failure..... the fuse arming mechanism shears a pin and the shell detonates at its highest point (perihelion) as the nose turns toward the earth.

Hangfire.... Slow propellant ignition... The shell drops down the tube and impacts the firing pin.. There is wisps of smoke and the shell will fire in 1d6 minutes.

[unkated]

To aid you in your work, O Cynic, I built the attached spreadsheet.

The First Sheet tallies outcomes for 2D6, 3D6, 2D10, and 3D10s both as number of outcomes or as percentages. Rows 12, 14, 31 & 33 display the could of outcomes of a given value using the number of dice; the row immediately under each count is the percentage chance of that given outcome. The differences in distribution is displayed in a pretty graph at the bottom.

The Second Sheet has blank tables for 2D6, 3D6, 2D10, and 3D10 outcomes, listing the approximate outcome for each set of dice as if on a D100 range (D1000 for 3D10).

Play with it and which outcome distribution you like best. Or skip if it doesn't suit.

What can I say? I was bored at work.

Uncle Ted

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That's very nice of you... pfft, it's pretty damned awesome actually! :D

Thank you kind sir :)


Edit: Been giving the spreadsheet a good look and it's very, very handy. My only question is about the graph itself.
Was there meant to be annotation for the colours on the graph?
When I open the spreadsheet the graph displays fine but there's nothing stating which colour is what die.
While I'm certain that green is the d6 and blue is the d10, I'm assuming that they are both 2 dice (i.e. 2d6, 2d10) and I'm also assuming that the red plot is 3d10 and the purple is 3d6, is that correct?
Thanks again for this, it really has made the dud round results a lot easier to place onto a chart.

[Bullet Magnet]

When I commented about a chart for possible complications resulting from the 10% chance of failure on mortar rounds made by the Wojo plant, I really didn't expect there to be such a response. Not that I'm complaining at all.

At the time, I was hoping someone might come up with enough possibilities to make something like a 2d6 chart, or maybe percentiles. Now I see there are too many results to fit on a 2d6 roll, but 3d6 might work. (I like Legbreaker's idea of putting the more disastrous results at the ends of a bell curve; it helps to keep the odds low enough that players won't be afraid to use mortars)

And, like Bobcat suggested, this could be applied to any other facilities that are making weapons during he war, with variable odds of failure depending on the level of quality control in place at the facility in question.

I am looking forward to seeing what comes from this. And also, to see what kinds of possible complications there are that I hadn't thought of.

[Legbreaker]

When I commented about a chart for possible complications resulting from the 10% chance of failure on mortar rounds made by the Wojo plant, I really didn't expect there to be such a response. Not that I'm complaining at all.

At the time, I was hoping someone might come up with enough possibilities to make something like a 2d6 chart, or maybe percentiles. Now I see there are too many results to fit on a 2d6 roll, but 3d6 might work. (I like Legbreaker's idea of putting the more disastrous results at the ends of a bell curve; it helps to keep the odds low enough that players won't be afraid to use mortars)

And, like Bobcat suggested, this could be applied to any other facilities that are making weapons during he war, with variable odds of failure depending on the level of quality control in place at the facility in question.

I am looking forward to seeing what comes from this. And also, to see what kinds of possible complications there are that I hadn't thought of.

See this everyone?
This is how the community should operate. Everyone working together to build on what's gone before, not tearing down and starting again, or arguing about the tiniest little discrepancies (which are probably just typos anyway).
This is GOOD!

[kcdusk]

See this everyone?
This is how the community should operate. Everyone working together to build on what's gone before, not tearing down and starting again, or arguing about the tiniest little discrepancies (which are probably just typos anyway).
This is GOOD!

Absolutely agree. Take a point of interest, throw around some ideas, come up with an improvement in the game (regardless of if your using v1.0 or 2.2). Thats why i'm here.

[unkated]

That's very nice of you... pfft, it's pretty damned awesome actually! :D

Thank you kind sir :)


Edit: Been giving the spreadsheet a good look and it's very, very handy. My only question is about the graph itself.
Was there meant to be annotation for the colours on the graph?
When I open the spreadsheet the graph displays fine but there's nothing stating which colour is what die.
While I'm certain that green is the d6 and blue is the d10, I'm assuming that they are both 2 dice (i.e. 2d6, 2d10) and I'm also assuming that the red plot is 3d10 and the purple is 3d6, is that correct?
Thanks again for this, it really has made the dud round results a lot easier to place onto a chart.

Hmmm. for the graph, there should be a key on the right side of the chart (about under column P)

The Blue inverted V is 2D6
The Red (flatter) inverted V is 2D10
The green curve is a 3D6 distribution
The purple curve is a 3D10 distribution

If I were a little smarter and demanded of Excel that it show curves, the inverted Vs would be a little softer looking, but their progression is rather regular (one more chance of a give outcome on 2 dice than the previous value)

The graph is comparing the distribution - Y axis is the % chance of a given outcome,

Uncle Ted