Turks shoot down a Russia Su-24 [Archive]

Schone23666

11-24-2015, 08:21 AM

Had a feeling something like this would happen, sooner or later. Too many damned players involved in this game already: U.S., Canada (though Canada's withdrawing their aircraft), France, Iran, Russia, Turkey, Iraqi Sunnis, Iraqi Shiites, Syrian Assad loyalists, Syrian rebels (a multitude plethora of splintered factions), Al Qaeda, Islamic State, Hezbollah....not to mention the increasing number of backers that are bankrolling one faction or another, the Gulf States among them....

Hard to tell where this will go. If it just becomes another "incident" with a lot of shouting between diplomats and grist for the political commentators, then it's just par for the course with that shitty region of the world. If it starts leading to other "incidents" though, especially if Putin decides to trump this up as a provocation by NATO? Then I would be especially worried, a lot.

Olefin

11-24-2015, 09:06 AM

Oh I can see a Russian jet "accidentally" shooting down a Turkish F-16 as payback

Schone23666

11-24-2015, 09:16 AM

Oh I can see a Russian jet "accidentally" shooting down a Turkish F-16 as payback

And I can see the Turks reciprocating in kind, shooting down another not one, but TWO Russian SU-24's or SU-25's, or maybe something meatier? It's all a matter of how far you want to keep pushing buttons...

Olefin

11-24-2015, 09:18 AM

I always thought a Turkish Russian start to any Twilight War scenario was a possibility - neither of them like each other and have grudges that go back 600 years or more - and Russia still wants warm water ports and free access to the Med

Anna Elizabeth

11-24-2015, 09:28 AM

Sometimes it just feels like Deja Vu. I'm wondering if the true objectives here aren't to get back to the "stability" of the original Cold War/Proxy War times of the fun-lovin' 80s?

lordroel

11-24-2015, 09:33 AM

Has it ever happen before that a NATO country shoot down a Soviet or Russian fighter aircraft in the past.

Anna Elizabeth

11-24-2015, 09:44 AM

Has it ever happen before that a NATO country shoot down a Soviet or Russian fighter aircraft in the past.

I found a listing of shootdowns during the Cold War. The list excludes the Korean and Vietnam wars: http://www.silent-warriors.com/shootdown_list.html

Schone23666

11-24-2015, 10:27 AM

F**k it, instead of "Twilight 2013", they should've come out with "Twilight: 2015" at this rate.

Jason Weiser

11-24-2015, 11:14 AM

A friend of mine (no, I will not say whom), has informed me that this has gotten worse.

1) Both aircrew ejected clean, then were captured and killed by Turkish backed Syrian rebels.

2) The Russian CSAR bird was fired on by a TOW. No word on if the chopper was hit or not.

In short, this smells like a deliberate ambush. I think the Turks knew the Russians used this route for egress from hitting targets deeper in Syria. The Turks had warned the Russians before, so they shot down the a/c, figuring the rebels would capture the aircrew and hold them for an appropriate ransom...

Then the idiots went and killed them...then fired on the CSAR chopper. Yeah, this is just getting better and better...eh? I suspect there will be an escort for all Russian strikes from now on...and there might be a dogfight between the Russians and the Turks not long after that. Where things go from there? Who the hell knows.

My advice though? Check your preps, and make damn sure they are close to hand...I got a bad feeling about this.

rcaf_777

11-24-2015, 11:44 AM

thanks but I think I will trust my sources instead, if you want to fear monger go right ahead.

Anna Elizabeth

11-24-2015, 12:14 PM

Guys, I'm not intending dis-respect, but these things aren't all that new. I truly do *not* believe one downed Fighter-bomber is going to lead to a nuclear war.

I grew up in the 80s, we used to watch GSFG in grainy news footage during our Sunday meal. KAL007. USS Vincennes shoot down of an Iranian airliner.

I'm betting that we'll hear a lot of saber-rattling, maybe a shootdown of a Turk jet, and then? The Russians will order new Sukhoi-30s to replace obsolete Su-24s. The Turks will ramp up orders for F-35s, leading the rest of NATO to follow. The GOPer candidates will vent a lot of verbal flatulence about "defense", jaw about re-opening the production line for F-22s, the MIC will get richer, and life will go on.

Rainbow Six

11-24-2015, 12:21 PM

A friend of mine (no, I will not say whom), has informed me that this has gotten worse.

1) Both aircrew ejected clean, then were captured and killed by Turkish backed Syrian rebels.

2) The Russian CSAR bird was fired on by a TOW. No word on if the chopper was hit or not.

To be fair, none of this is particularly breaking news and / or classified. The BBC were reporting over three hours ago that rebels had killed both pilots after they ejected and I've just watched footage of the helicopter being hit by a missile on the 6pm news (Sky News specifically if anyone wants to watch it). The Russian Defence Ministry have confirmed that one person was killed in the helo strike.

Guys, I'm not intending dis-respect, but these things aren't all that new. I truly do *not* believe one downed Fighter-bomber is going to lead to a nuclear war.

Agreed.

Raellus

11-24-2015, 01:23 PM

Schone23666

11-24-2015, 02:06 PM

I hope that this doesn't escalate.

Putin's got a pretty solid track record of brinksmanship and unilateral action, often military, to protect Russian interests and pride.

I pray that cooler heads prevail.

EDIT: I just watched the video of the Turkmen Brigade blowing up the alleged rescue chopper with a TOW missile. Two things stand out. First, the heli was on the ground and its rotors weren't spinning at all. That seems odd to me. Second, the U.S. vetted and supplied this particular insurgent group TOW missiles, making it an accomplice to the destruction. This is worrying.

This is the potential problem at hand. Putin in the eyes of the West is difficult to predict (which being a former agent of the KGB, is no surprise). He plays games of brinkmanship that so far, could be argued has won more than lost in his favor. Russia has successfully knocked down Georgia, taken the Crimea, re-established itself as a player in the Middle East by buttressing Assad's regime, etc. So far, the West's response has been, in the eyes of Moscow, rather divided and tepid at best (yes, I know, it's far more complicated, but I digress). Yes, the sanctions have taken a toll, but if Putin is able to spin the sanctions as proof that the West is out to get Russia and only Putin and Russian nationalism can stand up to Western decadence, what does he have to lose?

With all due respect to some of the comments posted here in response to Jason's post, I don't think it's fear mongering at all to point out that Moscow likely will not be happy about this. Will it lead to nuclear war or Turkey declaring Article V? No, I doubt it, at least for now. Could it lead to other "incidents" that could lead to a larger regional conflict that NATO is unprepared for due to most of the NATO members having at best miniscule defense budgets? Possibly. It all depends on what happens at both the top and on the ground, and the problem here is that there are so many variable factors at play with so many actors in this region makes it difficult to predict. NATO has already stated they stand by Turkey's decision, and the images of the rebels blowing up a Russian Hind (The Hind apparently was blown up AFTER it was forced to the ground by rebel AAA fire) with an American-manufactured TOW missile likely is just the sort of images Putin is going to use to stir the Russian public into a nationalistic frenzy.

"See?! The decadent American Nazis REALLY are out to smother Russian comrades under their jackboots, by using Western weapons supplied to their Islamist toadies!"

Rainbow Six

11-24-2015, 02:40 PM

With all due respect to some of the comments posted here in response to Jason's post, I don't think it's fear mongering at all to point out that Moscow likely will not be happy about this.

I didn't say he was fear mongering. I don't think it's fear mongering to point out that Moscow will not be happy about this. It's stating the obvious.

However I do think it's being slightly disingenuous to include comments like this...

A friend of mine (no, I will not say whom), has informed me that this has gotten worse.

1) Both aircrew ejected clean, then were captured and killed by Turkish backed Syrian rebels.

2) The Russian CSAR bird was fired on by a TOW. No word on if the chopper was hit or not.

It sounds (to me at least) that Jason is implying that he has information not in the public domain. That is fear mongering - the implication that "I know something you don't know (and I'm not going to tell you how I know) and it's bad" when the two points in question were already being reported in the media. In fact, the media were ahead of Jason's "source" as they were reporting that chopper had been hit.

Anna Elizabeth

11-24-2015, 02:49 PM

Seriously boys, "check your preps"? "a friend has informed me"? That *is* fear mongering.

I think a great many people in the world live in a self-imposed bubble. I *used* to. I was once addicted to doom-and-gloom, planetary extinction, Apocalyptic warnings, all this stuffs. A good guy I know calls it "Fear Porn".

It can be a bad, scary world. I get threats online just for being myself. A nice young man tried to SWAT me when I told him I didn't need his advice or opinions on Atheist issues. But when we spend all our time consuming fearful paranoid news stories and expecting the worst, then that ends up being all we have in life.

I did betters. You can, too. :)

Jason Weiser

11-24-2015, 03:52 PM

Oh good lord,
1) To all those saying my last sentence was fear mongering? Nope, it was a suggestion. Moments such as these, while unlikely to blow up in world ending conflagration, are not going to contribute to the general mirth of the planet right now. Methinks it is a good idea to make sure your preps are well, good. Does it mean head for the bunker? No. Does it mean do a once over of what you have and make sure it is ready to go? Yes.

2) A friend who is connected has information that yes, is now in the public domain. But, I do not want to say who that person is for a variety of reasons. He used to be active here, and I am doing this also precisely because I am trying NOT to start a damn panic.

When I got the news this morning, I had heard nothing that CONFIRMED the CSAR bird had been hit. Now it has been confirmed.

Look, I relayed some facts, then expressed an opinion. If that is not acceptable, then I wonder if the people responsible are being a bit reactionary themselves on far more than simply my tone, or not. Take it or leave it.

I am done for a while. Seriously.

Olefin

11-24-2015, 04:04 PM

I didn't say he was fear mongering. I don't think it's fear mongering to point out that Moscow will not be happy about this. It's stating the obvious.

However I do think it's being slightly disingenuous to include comments like this...

It sounds (to me at least) that Jason is implying that he has information not in the public domain. That is fear mongering - the implication that "I know something you don't know (and I'm not going to tell you how I know) and it's bad" when the two points in question were already being reported in the media. In fact, the media were ahead of Jason's "source" as they were reporting that chopper had been hit.

guys there are lots of people on this board who do have information that is not in the public domain - and those sources they have also have friends in the news media who could have reported it as well - and what Jason did isnt fear mongering - we are dealing with an unstable tyrant in Russia who has already put his country into three wars (Georgia, Ukraine and Syria) and who lives and dies by showing off his "manhood"

and the Turks shooting down that Su-24 is pretty much sticking a finger in his eye and saying "what are you going to do about it?" - and if that wasnt enough blowing away the SAR helo and killing the pilots in their chutes is not a way to make him cool down

Schone23666

11-24-2015, 04:14 PM

guys there are lots of people on this board who do have information that is not in the public domain - and those sources they have also have friends in the news media who could have reported it as well - and what Jason did isnt fear mongering - we are dealing with an unstable tyrant in Russia who has already put his country into three wars (Georgia, Ukraine and Syria) and who lives and dies by showing off his "manhood"

and the Turks shooting down that Su-24 is pretty much sticking a finger in his eye and saying "what are you going to do about it?" - and if that wasnt enough blowing away the SAR helo and killing the pilots in their chutes is not a way to make him cool down

This.

Olefin

11-24-2015, 04:21 PM

Fear mongering is trying to make something much bigger than it is

and it also depends on who you are dealing with in the equation - and if there is one man I would not trust to make rational decisions where he sees his countries interests being interfered with its Putin

now does that make me think he is going to do something really stupid? No actually he isnt that unbalanced for that - but do something rash and not well thought out that leads to other things - yeah that I could see

StainlessSteelCynic

11-24-2015, 04:45 PM

Putin might be considered a tyrant but he is by no definition "unstable".
Everything he has done has made strategic sense for Russia.

For example, Putin didn't order the attack on the Ukraine simply because he was feeling a bit "unstable" or a bit "petulant" or because needed to prove his manhood that day, he had very well defined strategic reasons for doing so.
The attack on the Ukraine ensured that Russia has continued access to a large, capable (and important to Russian interests) maritime base in the Black Sea. A base that Russia was leasing from the Ukraine, a base that the Ukraine leadership had said that they were looking at cancelling the Russian leasing agreement and hence Russian access to.

Raellus

11-24-2015, 04:49 PM

Putin has been quite rational. He's applied just enough force to get what he wants without serious repercussions (excepting sanctions).

That said, he may underestimate the West's reaction to his response to this shoot-down is. This is where things could get dicey. I'm really interested to see what his next move will be.

rcaf_777

11-24-2015, 04:50 PM

I am done for a while. Seriously.

See ya write if you find work

Olefin

11-24-2015, 04:51 PM

Olefin

11-24-2015, 04:54 PM

Now if you want real fear mongering I could point out the timing of the shoot down as it applies to the game - TDM 2015 anyone?

(sorry couldnt resist)

Rainbow Six

11-24-2015, 05:00 PM

And a base he could have kept access to without having to go to war, without having to piss the US and the Europeans off, and without any bloodshed.

In other words instead of doing the calm rational thought out process of just buying the Ukranians off and getting it with negoation instead he did the time honored "lets just beat the hell out of them and get it quick" approach

and look at the mess he is left with - if anything the Baltic states are even further parts of NATO, the old Warsaw Pact nations are even close to the West and you have Europe fiinally realizing that disarming to the point they did was pretty stupid

now he pokes his nose into Syria and gets burned - and by the Turks of all people (if there is one group of people the Russians do not like, after the Germans, its the Turks)

and again I am not saying he is unstable - but the man makes decisions too quickly and without anyone to counterbalance him or offer him real guidance beyond "sounds great to me!"

Yeah, you are.

guys there are lots of people on this board who do have information that is not in the public domain - and those sources they have also have friends in the news media who could have reported it as well - and what Jason did isnt fear mongering - we are dealing with an unstable tyrant in Russia who has already put his country into three wars (Georgia, Ukraine and Syria) and who lives and dies by showing off his "manhood"

and the Turks shooting down that Su-24 is pretty much sticking a finger in his eye and saying "what are you going to do about it?" - and if that wasnt enough blowing away the SAR helo and killing the pilots in their chutes is not a way to make him cool down

Unless you are referring to another tyrant in Russia?

(sorry couldn't resist)

Olefin

11-24-2015, 05:07 PM

well ok then I am saying that - but I dont mean unstable in the Hitlerian mode where he could do something historically stupid (i.e. declaring war on the US when there was no reason to do it, insisting on defending Germany west of the Rhine instead of pulling everything to the other side, etc..)

a better way would be to say that I dont think he really thinks before he acts - he jumps too quickly and too emotionally - and while thats good in some professions its not good for the leader of a country that armed with nukes - as for him being a tyrant that i wont take back - face it one of the fastest ways to get dead in Russia right now is to oppose him publicly

and he is surrounded by men who basically rubber stamp everything he says - to me thats a tyrant - i.e. no one has the guts to say the Emperor has no clothes

Rainbow Six

11-24-2015, 05:11 PM

a better way would be to say that I dont think he really thinks before he acts
Fair enough, your opinion.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Anna Elizabeth

11-24-2015, 05:14 PM

Oh well. Live lives in fear if you must. You aren't hurting me any.

Olefin

11-24-2015, 05:16 PM

Oh well. Live lives in fear if you must. You aren't hurting me any.

I dont live in fear - and not in any way trying to hurt you - and if I have I completely apologize

and if you dont share my opinion that is also fine - I love boards like this where all opinions are welcome and where, as long as you do it respectfully, you are free to disagree with others

its what makes it a great place to have discussions

Olefin

11-24-2015, 05:56 PM

by the way if you really want fear mongering just go to over to CNN

someone needs to take a breath there

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/opinions/ghitis-russia-jet-shot-down/index.html

Anna Elizabeth

11-24-2015, 06:12 PM

I dont live in fear - and not in any way trying to hurt you - and if I have I completely apologize

and if you dont share my opinion that is also fine - I love boards like this where all opinions are welcome and where, as long as you do it respectfully, you are free to disagree with others

its what makes it a great place to have discussions

You've misunderstood, Olefin. You and the others not only haven't hurt me, you cannot hurt me. :) I'm simply worried that you and the others are hurting yourselves, unnecessarily, worrying about these things.T2K is an awesome game, my favorite of RPGs, I love the ideas and questions it poses, about the darkest fears of people like me that grew up in the Cold War.

The real world has many, many real problems, and I think one of the biggest problems is the apocalyptic mindset. If it's all going to end, then we don't have to solve any problems, do we?

I grew up in a family that specialized in emotional abuse. It was a rule of fear, by a coward that couldn't face his own shortcomings, and the fact that his own choices led everyone around him to ruin. I survived. The biggest thing I've learned in life is that, no matter what color, creed, sexuality, or nationality we are, there are only 2 kinds of people:

You can build up the ones around you,

or

you can tear them down.

I'm doing my best in my life to build others up. But I'm starting to wonder here - threads about "Sovereign citizens". Threads about "prepping". Now, the push in this thread that the End is Nigh. It's just sad. There are some great people here, fine minds, creative writers.

It's sad to see the doom-'n-gloom. :(

StainlessSteelCynic

11-24-2015, 07:09 PM

And a base he could have kept access to without having to go to war, without having to piss the US and the Europeans off, and without any bloodshed.
This is not correct. The Ukrainian government had decided to cancel the long-term lease and tell the Russians to leave after a grace period of a few years. Those few years were deemed sufficient for the Russians to pack up and go home whereupon the base was most likely going to be taken over by the Ukrainian navy.

Legbreaker

11-24-2015, 07:40 PM

But, I do not want to say who that person is for a variety of reasons. He used to be active here, and I am doing this also precisely because I am trying NOT to start a damn panic.

I think anyone who's been on this forum for a couple of years knows exactly who you're talking about and why they don't show their face here any more.

Raellus

11-24-2015, 07:56 PM

The real world has many, many real problems, and I think one of the biggest problems is the apocalyptic mindset. If it's all going to end, then we don't have to solve any problems, do we?

I agree completely. For example, ISIS' endgame is provoking its own version of prophesied Armageddon, and we've all seen the heinous things that it's done trying to bring that about. The apocalyptic mindset is nihilistic and pessimistic and leads to fear bordering on paranoia.

Anna Elizabeth

11-24-2015, 08:19 PM

Legbreaker

11-24-2015, 08:29 PM

Boys, I have to carry Pepper Spray to check the mail. My life and virtue are regularly threatened on the Interwebs, the GOP candidates go to rallies in a town 45 minutes away to hear a preacher say that folks like me should be slaughtered without trial as "an affront to Gawd", and my GF's parents belong to a church that says we aren't even human.

What can I say? People are stupid... :(

However, that said, all bronies should be put down for their own good. ;)

rcaf_777

11-24-2015, 08:35 PM

by the way if you really want fear mongering just go to over to CNN someone needs to take a breath there

Nope that not fear mongering that just makeing headlines to get more viewers to drive up your revenues :D

Anna Elizabeth

11-24-2015, 08:35 PM

Who asked you? Seriously, Y'all can sit and have your End-of-the-World circlejerk.

At least Global Thermonuclear War would shut every man's spewhole.

rcaf_777

11-24-2015, 08:41 PM

To all those saying my last sentence was fear mongering? Nope, it was a suggestion.

Actually

"Fear mongering is the use of fear to influence the opinions and actions of others towards some specific end. The feared object or subject is sometimes exaggerated, and the pattern of fear mongering is usually one of repetition, in order to continuously reinforce the intended effects of this tactic, sometimes in the form of a vicious circle."

StainlessSteelCynic

11-24-2015, 08:43 PM

Aww shit, now you've done it Leg, you've initiated war between us and ponies and you know they have better technology than ISIS...

http://i2.wp.com/media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/littledroney.jpg?resize=400%2C518

LT. Ox

11-24-2015, 09:56 PM

Boys, I have to carry Pepper Spray to check the mail. My life and virtue are regularly threatened on teh Interwebs, the GOP candidates go to rallies in a town 45 minutes away to hear a preacher say that folks like me should be slaughtered without trial as "an affront to Gawd", and my GF's parents belong to a church that says we aren't even human.

You want to worry about existential threats? Be my guest. Perhaps Straight white men *should* spend more time being afraid, but I truly don't wish that.

I would like to know the name of the person you indicate is a Preacher and what he said and when.
I would like to know which GOP candidates were at such a sermon and when.
I would like to know which church states that you are not human.
I would like to know why you posted that Straight white men should be afraid.
And I would like to know if your post is or is not a doom and gloom as you stated you did not like them.

LT. Ox

11-24-2015, 09:58 PM

Who asked you? Seriously, Y'all can sit and have your End-of-the-World circlejerk.

At least Global Thermonuclear War would shut every man's spewhole.

I would like to know if you think this is constructive discussion?

unkated

11-24-2015, 11:55 PM

We've wandered a LOOOOOONG way off of the topic of current events in its proper scale.

I think we all need to take a deep collective breath and calm down.

Uncle Ted

LT. Ox

11-25-2015, 03:37 AM

We've wandered a LOOOOOONG way off of the topic of current events in its proper scale.

I think we all need to take a deep collective breath and calm down.

Uncle Ted
Thank You Sir

Targan

11-25-2015, 05:13 AM

I have no problem with Turkey shooting down the Russian aircraft. The Russians were given fair warning, both just before the shoot-down and on previous occasions, and it's well known that they just love to push boundaries when it comes to other nations' airspace. So I say suck it, Russia. Arrogant pricks.

The deaths of one, probably both pilots, that's likely a war crime and I'm not down with that. The destruction of the Russian helo sent in to rescue the pilots? Also suck Russia, suck it hard. The fact that the rebels used a TOW missile to finish off the helo brings me just a little extra piece of joy. Does it sting Russia? Mmm, yes. Yes it does, doesn't it? Feel the sting, Putin, you monomaniacal murderous savage.

Trigger for WWIII? I doubt it. Russia will stew on this and try to find some way to give Turkey a punch in the face right back, try to regain some badly dented prestige. I await their reaction with interest.

Legbreaker

11-25-2015, 05:40 AM

The Russian plane was only in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds apparently. The Turkish planes shot it down while it was in Syrian airspace.
The video showing the destruction of the helicopter isn't particularly conclusive either - there was little evidence to say where or when the video was taken. It could be just more propaganda by either side. The Russians to justify striking back, and the rebels to say "look what we can do".

I'll be waiting a few more days (at least) before making judgement.

Aww shit, now you've done it Leg, you've initiated war between us and ponies and you know they have better technology than ISIS...

That's ok, we've got our specially trained brigade of drop bears to infiltrate their lines. ;)

dragoon500ly

11-25-2015, 06:51 AM

Sorry Leg, drop bears are considered to violate the Geneva and Hague conventions...didn't you get the memo? :D

Legbreaker

11-25-2015, 07:17 AM

Australia hasn't signed the full document. If our enemy isn't following the convention, then we don't have to either.
And I think we almost all agree that Bronies are a war crime in and of themselves. :D

.45cultist

11-25-2015, 09:58 AM

Russia still has problems with it's military, there's a reason Cubans were brought in to crew the armor. Putin will use the time of Western weakness to gain strength and influence.

Raellus

11-25-2015, 01:04 PM

Apparently, one of the SU-24 crewmen was rescued. This piece is a concise update/analysis of the developing situation.

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-pilot-rescued-syrian-commando-unit-101718676.html

StainlessSteelCynic

11-25-2015, 05:13 PM

Apparently, one of the SU-24 crewmen was rescued. This piece is a concise update/analysis of the developing situation.

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-pilot-rescued-syrian-commando-unit-101718676.html

That definitely changes the info that was being provided to us initially, even if it came from sources apparently closer to the situation. Just proves that even those sources claiming special insight don't always know the full story and the rush to get all "doom & gloom" is a bit premature.

Legbreaker

11-25-2015, 05:39 PM

Absolutely. Virtually everything we've had so far is basically just opinion and certainly should not be taken as law. Only time will show us the truth.

Targan

11-25-2015, 07:57 PM

Well credit where it's due to the surviving SU-24 pilot - he must have been paying close attention during his E&E training. Hiding in the woods and remaining uncaptured until the rescue team got him out. Respect.

pmulcahy11b

11-25-2015, 09:16 PM

Sorry Leg, drop bears are considered to violate the Geneva and Hague conventions...didn't you get the memo? :D

Drop bears are in that gray area of the Convention, like .50 Cal Raufoss rounds and tear gas.

Legbreaker

11-25-2015, 09:19 PM

Drop bears are in that gray area of the Convention, like .50 Cal Raufoss rounds and tear gas.

And they're also just a native animal like moose in Canada, or lions in Africa. So what if they've been intensively trained into weapons of war?

Cdnwolf

11-26-2015, 07:13 AM

Saw this and lol.

Cdnwolf

11-26-2015, 07:15 AM

And they're also just a native animal like moose in Canada, or lions in Africa. So what if they've been intensively trained into weapons of war?

More people are killed by Moose in Canada than guns. Look it up.

:cool:

Legbreaker

11-26-2015, 07:34 AM

More people are killed by Moose in Canada than guns. Look it up.

:cool:

Yeah, but...
3565

LT. Ox

11-26-2015, 12:06 PM

More people are killed by Moose in Canada than guns. Look it up.

:cool:
sorry But do they have real guns ???

Legbreaker

11-26-2015, 04:27 PM

Of course they do, just just use apologies for ammo! ;)

aspqrz

11-26-2015, 07:08 PM

sorry But do they have real guns ???

The Moose certainly do! :D

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPRi_qxolLAGudNa4oP2PVZgJvI-WuUcEXssa5N
(Sorry, the insert image function doesn't work with the above address. At. All.)

Which explains the casualty rates!

Phil

Cdnwolf

11-26-2015, 09:22 PM

SQUIRREL!!!!

bigehauser

12-07-2015, 02:15 AM

Stop feeding trolls.

rcaf_777

12-07-2015, 11:19 AM

My advice though? Check your preps, and make damn sure they are close to hand...I got a bad feeling about this.

Wow I can't belive it I nothing happened :confused: image that :D

Legbreaker

12-07-2015, 06:19 PM

Wow I can't believe it I nothing happened :confused: image that :D

Yeah, it's funny how it takes more than a small, almost insignificant incident to start a war. Too many people are too ready to jump to conclusions, immediately assume the absolute worst, and overreact. Bad enough that some people are like that, worse that others readily listen to those fear merchants with their predictions of doom. Nothing is better than taking a breath, relaxing for a while, getting all the facts and seeing what happens.