Buying Vehicles

[Sapper31]

Question for you all:

Reading the 2/2.2 edition rules, and really the 1.0 rules as well..

Do you let your characters purchase vehicles with their starting money? I know there is a dice roll that effectively nets them free vehicles, but are they allowed to buy vehicles as well? Other than confirming they are allowed to buy motorcycles, there is no explicit statement toward if they are/are not allowed to purchase other vehicles.

I am starting a game with 5 people, and collectively we have over 100,000$ to spend on starting equipment. By far the limiting factor is carry capacity of the starting vehicles (we got 2 HMMWVs). The amount of money you get seems excessive unless you are intended to buy vehicles, yet the challenge seems greater without.


What are your thoughts on this?

[Targan]

Hell yes... but it's definitely a case of "be careful what you wish for". If they purchase vehicles that the GM isn't happy with, well, the GM can make them suffer for their choices. Worn out parts, no ammo, limited POL, contaminated POL, the options are many.

[LT. Ox]

Hell yes... but it's definitely a case of "be careful what you wish for". If they purchase vehicles that the GM isn't happy with, well, the GM can make them suffer for their choices. Worn out parts, no ammo, limited POL, contaminated POL, the options are many.

What he said smile

[.45cultist]

What he said smile

There's a reason it's for sale and not being utilized.

[Olefin]

Where is your campaign starting - are you in the wreckage of the 5th division running for your lives or are you somewhere where you could buy vehicles - i.e. perhaps Krakow where anything is for sale for instance?

I would think that the difference between the starting rollup vehicles (which by game definition are supposed to be fully fueled and armed and in good condition) and buying them is that you would be buying a vehicle - not the ammo and fuel needed to operate it - meaning you need money to arm it and fuel it as well - and anything you buy as others have said may have issues with it that rolled vehicles wont

keep in mind with anything used that its always buyer beware - limited ammo available for it alone can make a vehicle nothign more than just basic transport no matter how big its gun is - or even more fun is a non-operational weapon - get a terrific buy on a tank and then find out that the cannon is non-functional and you have a fuel hog that looks impressive but all its armed with are machine guns

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I view starting cash not as actual physical dollars, but basically "buy points". The rules (at least the 1.0 rules) state that starting vehicles are to be considered in good working order, IIRC, so if (for example) the party wants to pool their dough and they have enough for an Abrams or whatever then that's also part of their starting unit. The most well-armored force I have run as a GM had a Bradley and an HEMTT and then later salvaged an abandoned M113; there were numerous characters, and had they had enough from the outset, yes, I'd have said "Okay you can purchase the Stingray," etc.

[Olefin]

I view starting cash not as actual physical dollars, but basically "buy points". The rules (at least the 1.0 rules) state that starting vehicles are to be considered in good working order, IIRC, so if (for example) the party wants to pool their dough and they have enough for an Abrams or whatever then that's also part of their starting unit. The most well-armored force I have run as a GM had a Bradley and an HEMTT and then later salvaged an abandoned M113; there were numerous characters, and had they had enough from the outset, yes, I'd have said "Okay you can purchase the Stingray," etc.

You left out the part about the M113 basically being about as beat up as one can be and still work - but we got it running for sure - showing just how important a good mechanic is to a party

I think many parties may have just left it there but to me even a beat up piece of junk sure beats walking

and I agree with you - the question is do they have enough money to properly arm it - thats what we did with the Bradley we rolled in the above mentioned campaign - game gives you one ammo load for it - but considering how much combat we saw even in the short length of the campaign thats not going to cut it - so we made sure we had the TOW's to spare

[unkated]

I follow the same general lines as Raketenjagdpanzer - your initial cash is more like "buying points."

For initial 5th Division starts, I also use the availability values - if I roll it as unavailable, you can't buy it in your initial creation shopping spree.

"Your original issue gas mask gave out, and you haven't been close enough to the front of the line when they gave out re- issues" or
"You cannot beg, borrow or steal another box of 7.62mm N. So, your M60 is down to your last full belt..." or
"The only Parker Hales you've seen in the last 6 months were in the hands of someone carrying it, or in pieces in the armorer's shop."


Usually, common stuff is available, but not always.

Yes, you can buy a vehicle - if it's available.

I won't necessarily give players a choice on wear values (randomly rolled), but then they are not forced to buy the vehicle either.

Other campaigns I have been in, the GM may assign a vehicle (or not) if appropriate to the setting and circumstances of the scenario. In a couple, we were a team assigned to a mission, and were assigned vehicles; extra equipment was very limited. In another, vehicles were in appropriate; we were each given a horse instead, and a wagon for the group.

Uncle Ted

[Sapper31]

The rules do specifically say in 2.2 you are supposed to roll for wear value on starter vehicles.

My campaign is indeed going to start in Kalisz.

[Olefin]

starting vehicles should have some wear for sure - but there I look at the level of player before deciding how to apply wear - veteran players who have played the game before are ones who know how to deal with vehicles that have mechanical issues and heavy wear

for new players I tend to go more to giving them some wear but nothing that would break down too soon so they can get more into the mechanics of the game first before they have to play mechanic on their vehicles

[Targan]

The rules do specifically say in 2.2 you are supposed to roll for wear value on starter vehicles.

1st edition has random rolls for wear value too IIRC, but really everything is at the GM's discretion. I recall someone on this forum once saying that they would assign different wear values for different major components on vehicles, i.e. main weapon, powerplant, suspension etc.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Another game played that didn't really get off the ground but at the very least was a good thought experiment...we rolled up a LAV 25 and a Humvee - may have been two of them (in fact I think it was) - and with our starting dollars could have purchased another LAV but didn't have the crew. Instead we bought so much equipment we were running out of vehicle carry capacity.

[Draq]

Somebody somewhere made a chart for rolling what kind/how many of vehicles based on number of PCs. It's amazing. http://forum.juhlin.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=903

[Silent Hunter UK]

Another game played that didn't really get off the ground but at the very least was a good thought experiment...we rolled up a LAV 25 and a Humvee - may have been two of them (in fact I think it was) - and with our starting dollars could have purchased another LAV but didn't have the crew. Instead we bought so much equipment we were running out of vehicle carry capacity.

In that case, it might be worth setting up a home base in somewhere suitably T2K-esque, say an abandoned hangar?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

In that case, it might be worth setting up a home base in somewhere suitably T2K-esque, say an abandoned hangar?

Once you get out of the Kalisz salient, then yeah that'd make sense. Build up a nice cantonment.

[Bullet Magnet]

I view starting cash not as actual physical dollars, but basically "buy points".

I always ran the game with the assumption the items "purchased" at character creation were meant to represent items acquired by the character before the game started. For T2K, this can mean equipment issued to them, gear they scavenged, and finally, everything they were able to shove into the vehicles when the "Good luck, you're on your own." order was issued.
I can't remember if it's in the T2K rules, or if I scavenged it from another game, but I had a rule that 90% of the starting money MUST be spent, or it is lost. The remaining 10% I referred to as the character's "wallet"; this money could be kept or spent as the player wished.

My opinion is, if they want to use the starting cash to buy another vehicle, let them. It's a great way to get all that starting cash out of their hands. Of course, don't forget it's only the vehicles given by rolling upon character creation that are assumed to come with a full load of ammo, fuel, etc. With purchased vehicles, items like fuel, etc., are sold separately.

[Olefin]

I always ran the game with the assumption the items "purchased" at character creation were meant to represent items acquired by the character before the game started. For T2K, this can mean equipment issued to them, gear they scavenged, and finally, everything they were able to shove into the vehicles when the "Good luck, you're on your own." order was issued.
I can't remember if it's in the T2K rules, or if I scavenged it from another game, but I had a rule that 90% of the starting money MUST be spent, or it is lost. The remaining 10% I referred to as the character's "wallet"; this money could be kept or spent as the player wished.

My opinion is, if they want to use the starting cash to buy another vehicle, let them. It's a great way to get all that starting cash out of their hands. Of course, don't forget it's only the vehicles given by rolling upon character creation that are assumed to come with a full load of ammo, fuel, etc. With purchased vehicles, items like fuel, etc., are sold separately.

I am in agreement on you as to what the items players had that they used their money to obtain represented - i.e. as you said issued, scavenged, and grabbed as the Division collapsed

and also as to what a purchased vehicle should be versus one that is rolled up by the GM - like I said if you have the money to purchase the vehicle you need to also have the money to purchase ammo and fuel for it as well - I wouldn't give the vehicle an empty fuel tank but I would assume that at best its holding 10-20% fuel capacity when purchased as compared the full vehicles that GM rolls give you

[rcaf_777]

Here is the way I do it

If I was playing using one of the TW adventure mods, I.E. a group of US PC's escaping Poland, then I'd use the starting vehicle chart found in the TW Rule Book.

Playing anything else, I'd look at the PC's, is there someone who would have a normally have a vehicle? IE Cavalry Scouts, Armored Crewmen, Mechanized Infantry? Or I would just throw in a NPC with a vehicle from my stash of NPCs.

Of course the group could also "find" something too.

[Olefin]

I like the idea of a bought vehicle being a found one - especially considering the nature of the breakout and how confused it is - finding a US or Soviet vehicle sitting there still useable with dead bodies all around it would be very realistic - i.e. a firefight that ends up with everyone dead or dying but the vehicle still driveable - we got a vehicle like that once using as an idea something from The Big Red One - i.e. playing dead to suck the enemy in and have them dismount - sniper took out the guy they left on the machine gun and we took out the rest

could be done here as well but where the Americans or Russians that are going down get off a grenade that takes out the opposing side - and you have two groups of bodies clustered around an operational vehicle - and there is the vehicle you "bought"

[rcaf_777]

Well in the begining of the Free City of Krakow Mod you come across ambush site.

When I came ran this adventure I had my group find a running truck and Humvee since they did not have any vehicles yet.

Using this idea you could give stuff to PC's if you are that type of GM.

[.45cultist]

If you're running a civvies campaign, purchasing a humvee or M35 is an option for a prewar collector.

[pmulcahy11b]

I voted to allow, but what was left unsaid was subject to GM's Discretion.

[Olefin]

If you're running a civvies campaign, purchasing a humvee or M35 is an option for a prewar collector.

Actually that's a great idea to add to a civilian campaign if you want to add something unique - civilians have lots of stuff they collect - you could use that for instance to add a Ferret (all you need is a machine gun and its fully operational after all), a Sherman or Stuart tank (and making them use their money to buy ammo for it just like a real collector would have had to do), or other vehicles that collectors might have

for an example look at the Caribbean module - sitting in a garage is a fully restored M113 APC lacking only a machine gun to arm it and if I remember right a battery that a collector had restored and then died from the flu

[mikeo80]

In the TW games I have played, the GM assigned vehicles. In one, we got good old fashioned 2 1/2 ton WWII refurbs. Thank goodness we had a couple of good mechanics. Another game we were issued NOTHING. We had to hoof our stash out of the area. That was HYSTERICAL. Folks had bought TONS of stuff. Then you had to pick and choose what you could carry.

My character was a relative new GI. IIRC he had 6 months experience. SO, not too much cash available. I concentrated on some extra ammo, food and first aid equipment.

My $0.02

Mike

[General Pain]

Don't say NO...just determin difficulty.

- no ammo
- rare fuel
- rare parts
- someone else want the vehicle( side-adventure)...maybe it was use for smuggling
- maybe the vehicle is stored in a nuclear zone, enemy controlled area or in bombed parking structure etc

[Legbreaker]

Buying Equipment: Finally, each character can "buy" equipment at the beginning of the game. This is not meant to represent the actual purchase of equipment; instead, the money for buying equipment allocated to each player is a representation of the value of the equipment he has accumulated over time.
Players may buy equipment separately or may pool their resources to buy equipment, Note that motorcycles do not appear on the Vehicles Table and thus cannot be obtained with a vehicle die roll. They may, however, be purchased.
The answer is clearly written in the books.

[rcaf_777]

Here what I would do

Me: So you guys want a vehcile huh

Group: Yes

Me: Ok here is what you have available, enjoy or go with out

FSM Syrena 105
FSM Syrena R-20
Ford Pinto
Polski 126p
Polski Fiat 126p
Renault 4GTL (Jason Bourne’s Car)
Renault Le Car

[Jason]

I voted that I would not allow my players to do so, but actually there if they really wanted to buy one, I might allow it on the condition that the vehicle was not in their immediate possession. It would take an adventure to collect the stashed vehicle.

This is the same procedure I use for new PC's once the campaign is underway. The PC's may spend their starting cash as usual, but the gear is always hidden in an area that makes it tricky to regain.

[unkated]

Challenge accepted.

Polish civilian vehicles 1970s-90s.

Format is for DC; Travel Movement and Fuel Consumption are hourly.

[Bullet Magnet]

Challenge accepted.

Polish civilian vehicles 1970s-90s.

Format is for DC; Travel Movement and Fuel Consumption are hourly.


For DC? Dark Conspiracy?

Polish civilian vehicles would of course be most common where the game is set, but other vehicles could be there as well: Czech, Slovak, Russian, German, Hungarian, etc.

I can imagine some pretentious officer deciding he wants to use a Benz as "his" vehicle.

[Cdnwolf]

In a scenario start I was working on the group started out part of an unit overran and they were fleeing with just their personal weapons and a backpack of whatever they could fit in it.

As they fled they overheard on the radio a Captain saying he was ditching the two vehicles in his command in a safe place about 20 klicks away because they were running on fumes. The Captain was captured and the party had to first rescue the Captain and then find the vehicles... and then get fuel and ammo for them. Three mini adventures just at the start of the game. A great way to introduce new people to the game.

[Bullet Magnet]

Here what I would do

Me: So you guys want a vehcile huh

Group: Yes

Me: Ok here is what you have available, enjoy or go with out

FSM Syrena 105
FSM Syrena R-20
Ford Pinto
Polski 126p
Polski Fiat 126p
Renault 4GTL (Jason Bourne’s Car)
Renault Le Car

Looks like you forgot the Trabant (Or did you leave that out intentionally, to prevent a revolt by your players?)

[aspqrz]

Looks like you forgot the Trabant (Or did you leave that out intentionally, to prevent a revolt by your players?)

Maybe he only allowed the 'Sports Car' version ... the one with the open top!

Phil

[Legbreaker]

Like this one?

3685

[unkated]

For DC? Dark Conspiracy?

Do you know of another game mentioned on this site initialed "DC" that has matching mechanics?

In Dark Conspiracy, they discuss the notion of returning to cheap manufacture of older (1950s) designs for the masses, while the few elites get (what passed for the notion of) high, sleek technology of the early 21st century.

So, along with collecting vehicles for T2K, I collect data on a panoply of particularly ugly, clunky vehicles. This includes many vehicles built in after WW2, and civilian vehicles in Eastern Europe into the 1990s.


Polish civilian vehicles would of course be most common where the game is set, but other vehicles could be there as well: Czech, Slovak, Russian, German, Hungarian, etc.

I can imagine some pretentious officer deciding he wants to use a Benz as "his" vehicle.

The challenge was in answer to the post of pictures of small Polish vehicles. What do you want for 2 days worth of free time?

Besides, as noted, the both Polski Fiats were also produced in Yugoslavia, and the 126 was also built in Germany.

That's the same reason that I did not include the Trabbi, built in East Germany. Nor was this meant to be an exhaustive study of vehicles in Yugoslavia, Romania, or the USSR, though I have some information on some of those.

I posted some Soviet vehicles in this topic (http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php?p=67807&postcount=17), and a VW microbus in this one (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=64305#post64305) (your characters will need to bring their own shovels and rakes and implements of destruction).

I absolutely agree with you on the Mercedes Benz or any halfway toward luxury car seized.

Equally, I am sure that anyone stuck walking as the war runs on will try to seize anything that runs and use it as long as they can get away with it.

And there is a fun small scenario idea for Austria (or Berlin) - Soviets invade, and seize the official limo of the Mayor of Linz; local guerillas aim to take it back (or destroy it) as an official poke in the eye of the occupier.

An alternative scenario is some stalwart warriors of the Red Army trying to seize a luxury vehicle or two from an army impound lot to bring home as war booty, hidden on a 5-ton truck under canvas or some other more clever PC-devised plan.

Or both happening at once.....

Uncle Ted

[Bullet Magnet]

Do you know of another game mentioned on this site initialed "DC" that has matching mechanics?

I've never had the opportunity to play Dark Conspiracy, or even to look at the rules, so I know nothing of the mechanics of the game.
And, DC can stand for several things. I asked to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding.

The challenge was in answer to the post of pictures of small Polish vehicles. What do you want for 2 days worth of free time?

Oh, I wasn't complaining. I understood right off, that your file was strictly for Polish vehicles. Please excuse any misunderstanding that may have come from my wording. I brought up the other Eastern European vehicles in the sense of "If someone has the time and inclination, this might be a nifty idea." I didn't mean to imply that it "HAD" to be done.

I absolutely agree with you on the Mercedes Benz or any halfway toward luxury car seized.

Yeah, that was just the first make of high end vehicle that came to mind.

Equally, I am sure that anyone stuck walking as the war runs on will try to seize anything that runs and use it as long as they can get away with it.

Definitely.