GPS and Other Satellites

[rcaf_777]

Since Leg delined to start a new thread

There's LOTS of information in there actually.
Quote:
On 13 November 1995, the Soviet Union launched the last of its high-orbiting weather-tracking satellites, named DP 201. With the widening of hostilities, the expected life of such a satellite was less than a few days. Still this device managed to survive longer, dodging even the most adamant attempts to destroy it, for reasons which have never been completely understood.

When the United States employed its orbital ASAT (anti-satellite) network, it had suffered years of battles in Congress and hundreds of budget cuts. Still, what finally was put into space functioned well enough. Most Soviet spy satellites were downed in the first few months of conflict.

Likewise, the USSR also made use of advanced space technology in the downing of most of America's surveillance systems in orbit. The war was a simple one of attrition: one in which neither side had an upper hand or really hoped to win.

Despite all these odds, DP 201 stayed in space, taking its pictures of all the world's weather patterns and trends, dutifully recording all information it was exposed to. It was originally designed to monitor the ozone and jet stream patterns, as well as other wind and weather patterns, but this role was expanded as time passed and more nuclear weapons were launched by both sides. The spread of fallout across the world determined which countries were to survive, and during the peak of the nuclear exchange, DP 201 was hovering over the world tracking the weather patterns.

The satellite would have given the Soviets a strong advantage during reconstruction of their nation if not for a crippling shot by one of the few automated SDI systems still in space.

Where does it say GPS, Ocean Surveillance, Communication or Weather Satellites? I only see spy and Surveillance

While this specifically talks about US ASAT weapons and capabilities, is it really inconceivable that the Soviets didn't have something similar?

Yes it is and here’s why the US was able to test it primary Anti Sat weapon (ASM-135 ASAT) with the downing of P78-1 or Solwind. The Soviet did not such live test its systems and many failed such as 11F19DM Skif-DM/Polyus orbital battle station. Their research was then terminated due failed many results in the late 80's. Soviet did continue research into high-powered gas dynamic lasers and neutral or charged particle beam systems which could blind a satellite but not shoot it down. They also starting developing counter measures to US weapon systems.

There is also the matter of the launch platforms for each weapon systems which require conversion of air superiority fighter.

http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear-weapons/space-security/a-history-of-anti-satellite-programs


Why would both sides be so desperate to recover one downed satellite if ANYONE had anything still up in orbit?

Well they only after the data, and it’s a down enemy Satellite why wouldn’t the US want it. Operation Morning Light was a joint Canadian and US operation to recover Kosmos 954

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb267/11.pdf


It just doesn't make ANY sense for operational satellites to still exist and be available for GPS.

How about they are still operational because priority satellites were one for surveillance and missile launch detection

We also know from the background materials (all versions) that "orbiting space laboratories, are abandoned as the war drags on".

Where does it say Satellites were shot down?

Also from the nuclear target lists: "Vandenbelp AFS. CA: Recon satellite launch facilities (1 Mt ground burst)", "Spacefight Center, Cape Canaveral FL: Recon satellite launch facilities (1 MT ground burst)", "Houston, TX: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.5 Mt)", "Plesetsk, RSFSR: Recon satellite launching facilities (1 Mt)", "Leninsk·Tyuralam, KSSR: Recon satellite launching facilities (2 Mt)", and "KapustJn Yar, RSFSR: Secondary satellite launching facilities (500 Kt)". There may be other control and launch sites I don't know about, but how likely is it any would have been missed given the extreme value of satellites?

Actually pretty good, as with any target in the Twilight World. The missile target of any location could be spare if the missile targeting said location was destroyed before it launch by a missile targeting said missile location.

As if that isn't enough, and perhaps more relevant to the thread than all the above

It’s not enough and the M1A2 is not relevant as this a topics about GPS Satellites not the M1A2 tank

[pmulcahy11b]

Satellites...a person in the T2K timeline would best in forgetting they were ever there. Satellites are at least 50 years in the future of the T2K timeline.

[RN7]

I started a similar thread about two years ago.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=4207

Although I didn't go into actual anti-satellite warfare during the war or do a list of space launch facilities that were targeted by nuclear weapons.

I do think it is likely that the US and Soviets and others were sending INTEL, communication, GPS and maybe armed satellites into orbit until the nuclear war started in late 1997. I think it also highly feasible that the French were still launching the occasional satellite after that as they survive the war in much better shape than anyone else and their launching site at Kourou in French Guyana is intact.

[Legbreaker]

rcaf_777 I really don't see a need to respond further to your post(s) unless you can come up with something relevant to T2K and use quotes and references to the canon material as I have done.
My position (as with others on this forum) is clear - GPS in particular, and satellites in general, is dead in T2K.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I said this in the other thread and I'll say it again here because obviously the message was not understood -
GPS satellites specifically (and other satellites in general) need constant ground station monitoring and control. Once the war starts and you lose those personnel and/or ground control stations, the satellites are going to lose timing synchronization and/or the maintenance of their orbit.
It will NOT matter how many satellites are still up there, they won't be in the specific orbits needed or they'll be suffering synchronization problems and all of that will render them useless for navigation.

Typical estimates are that they'll be useful for a few weeks, maybe a month after the loss of ground control stations and within a year or so the entire system will be completely unreliable.

[rcaf_777]

rcaf_777 I really don't see a need to respond further to your post(s) unless you can come up with something relevant to T2K and use quotes and references to the canon material as I have done.
My position (as with others on this forum) is clear - GPS in particular, and satellites in general, is dead in T2K.

Respond or don't, I really don't care I have proved my point and why should quote anything you didn't. And besides Satellite Down is clear enough there are many Satellites in orbit and working fine, and they are people in working control stations on the ground.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Here's a direct quote from the flavour text from Satellite Down, page 4: -

""Gentlemen, your government has a problem, and we are going
to help. In 1995, the Soviet Union launched the last of its
weather-tracking satellites into orbit. It was an 'eye in the sky,'
tracking major storm and global weather patterns, called DP
201. Now, during the height of the war, just about every satellite
on both sides was knocked down or rendered worthless junk.
All but DP 20 1. It just stopped transmitting."

Emphasis mine. That doesn't simply "imply" there are very few satellites left, it states it outright.
Further to that, there's this quote from page 5: -

"DP 201 BACKGROUND
Military intelligence was weakened to the breaking point during the Third World War. With "normal" communication lines nothing more than memories to most individuals, the information on DP 201's tapes is vital to the continuing growth of any nation. To them it is something to barter with for needed food and technology, or something to hold for the sheer power it represents.
Thus the characters should know up front that they will not be alone on this venture, that every nation that can muster the ability will have forces trying to accomplish the very same goals.
The tapes on board the satellite have all of the data needed to determine where there will be rainfall, where crops should be planted, and thus where people should live. The tension that this information can create is the key to the excitement of the scenario. This can be used by the referee to add to the tension of the situation.
The satellite is large, weighing almost 375 kilos. Originally it was designed for a soft ground landing within the Soviet Union. But due to some damage from America's space-born antisatellite system and lack of good ground signal communication, it crashed off the coast of Mexico in the Gulf of California. Tracking plots by the lone functioning radar, though untrustworthy at best, indicate that DP 201 came down just off a small island formerly known as San Jose, some 11 miles off of the Baja Peninsula."

Emphasis mine. Again, this doesn't simply "imply" there's little left in the way of satellite abilities, it pretty much spells it out - the situation is dire and satellites cannot be relied upon any more.
Of course, you can do as you like in your game but Satellite Down is reasonably clear on how GDW saw the situation and simple common sense would tell you that there aren't enough people/equipment/resources left to keep satellites functioning in the manner they were meant to.

[RN7]

Global Positioning System (GPS) satellites in T2K really only apply to the Americans as they are the only ones who have or had an operational GPS satellite network in the 1990's.

The Russian (Soviet) GLONASS network didn't come online until December 1995, although the Soviets may have put up enough satellites before then to establish a network if the USSR hadn't collapsed. To date the Russians have only had a sporadic network as they have had a lot of trouble keeping enough satellites in orbit to make it work.

Europe's Galileo System and China's COMPASS network is not yet operational as of 2016.

[Targan]

I said this in the other thread and I'll say it again here because obviously the message was not understood -
GPS satellites specifically (and other satellites in general) need constant ground station monitoring and control. Once the war starts and you lose those personnel and/or ground control stations, the satellites are going to lose timing synchronization and/or the maintenance of their orbit.
It will NOT matter how many satellites are still up there, they won't be in the specific orbits needed or they'll be suffering synchronization problems and all of that will render them useless for navigation.

Correct. Real-World Relativity: The GPS Navigation System (http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html)

The combination of these two relativistic effects means that the clocks on-board each satellite should tick faster than identical clocks on the ground by about 38 microseconds per day. This sounds small, but the high-precision required of the GPS system requires nanosecond accuracy, and 38 microseconds is 38,000 nanoseconds. If these effects were not properly taken into account, a navigational fix based on the GPS constellation would be false after only 2 minutes, and errors in global positions would continue to accumulate at a rate of about 10 kilometers each day! The whole system would be utterly worthless for navigation in a very short time.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Sheesh, that means the situation with GPS satellites would be even worse than the info I found!
One day would be enough to make it worthless as a navigational aid so the USA and its allies better remember their map & compass nav skills :eek:

[Olefin]

Keep in mind guys that you have to watch out for conflicts in story telling between modules - i.e. the sub that heavily damages the freighter carrying the Cubans home that end up in Grenada is the same one that supposedly was in the hands of the UBF at the same time - the pace of releasing modules meant sometimes they contradicted each other

and keep in mind as to satellites that even with the nukes trikes that were detailed you still have two satellite launch facilities left that are definitely intact

US - Wallops Island Flight Facility has six launch pads for the Scout missile

France - Guiana Space Centre - which is intact and the most likely place for satellites to be launched into orbit

The X-factor is the Kagoshima Space Center - which depends on if you are running version 1 or version 2 of the game - version 1 had the Japanese basically intact while version 2 had them getting nuked - and version 2 had a Challenge magazine adventure set there (Rockets Red Glare)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You'r right but seriously, during (and more so after) the war, who is going to use the massive quantities of resources needed to launch a rocket when you could better use them for making food, ammo, spare parts, etc. etc.?
Then after the satellite is actually in orbit, who's going to commit all the resources to run the ground tracking and control stations to constantly monitor and control it?

A little common sense goes a long way, satellites are for countries that are not pulling themselves back from the ruins of an apocalyptic war.

[kato13]

Correct. Real-World Relativity: The GPS Navigation System (http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html)


When these quotes were posted the programmer in me was thinking, what engineer would allow that. The next paragraph radically changes the context of the quotes as far as this discussion goes.

The engineers who designed the GPS system included these relativistic effects when they designed and deployed the system. For example, to counteract the General Relativistic effect once on orbit, they slowed down the ticking frequency of the atomic clocks before they were launched so that once they were in their proper orbit stations their clocks would appear to tick at the correct rate as compared to the reference atomic clocks at the GPS ground stations. Further, each GPS receiver has built into it a microcomputer that, in addition to performing the calculation of position using 3D trilateration, will also compute any additional special relativistic timing calculations required

Also this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_satellite_blocks

The Block IIA satellites were slightly improved versions of the Block II series, designed to provide 180 days of operation without contact from the control segment.


Given how important the GPS system is I could see MILGOV sacrificing quite a bit to make sure they can update them twice a year. Don't know how long they could keep them working but they would sure try.

In my world the GPS system would be some where between useless (If ASATs or EMP were really effective), to only being able to provide accurate time (if say 3 or 4 are alive) , to the least likely option partially functional (with like 8 sats working properly, like during the deployment for "desert shield").

If you say you can only get a link for 4 hours every 4 days that could be a useful plot device. You could even have a few sats giving out erroneous information so if you check during other times you get totally wrong information.

[Olefin]

FYI the Scout is what they launched at Wallops Island and it was about as simple as it gets - basically very old tech - in our timeline they shut it down in 1994 but you could see here that it could remain in service - the question is how many, if any, would be left

France on the other hand may be able to launch satellites very soon after the war, possibly even as early as 2000-2001 - but they may be delayed as well by having to wait for the debris to die down in space

And I don't agree that the GPS network could have been taken out by the ASAT's of the 90's unless you postulate weapons that were a lot more effective than what was being looked at - the GPS satellites are at 12,500 miles - that's a heck of a lot harder to get to than the weather and surveillance satellites that orbit much lower and are thus much easier to knock out

and the communication satellites in geosynchronous orbit would have been very hard targets - not unless the Soviets went up there with something manned or something nuclear

[Olefin]

You'r right but seriously, during (and more so after) the war, who is going to use the massive quantities of resources needed to launch a rocket when you could better use them for making food, ammo, spare parts, etc. etc.?
Then after the satellite is actually in orbit, who's going to commit all the resources to run the ground tracking and control stations to constantly monitor and control it?

A little common sense goes a long way, satellites are for countries that are not pulling themselves back from the ruins of an apocalyptic war.

You don't really need massive quantities of resources to launch a rocket - the question is what kind of rocket and what payloads is it carrying - and keep in mind that the timeline strongly suggests that the US didn't launch a bunch of their rockets that were in silos and the like - those rockets, at least those still operational, would be perfect to use to get a communications or weather satellite into orbit

any such satellite wouldn't be state of the art of course - but anything they can get to maintain communications or get weather data is better than nothing

even if it was short lived - i.e. like the satellite used in Twilight 2013 to do the "you are on your own" speech - you could see MilGov using something like that to give orders to Korea and the Middle East - even as simple as a recall order or a "you are on your own as to getting home" message - even if all it did was play a recorded encoded or plain language message at intervals that could be picked up by any surviving US units

[Legbreaker]

the sub that heavily damages the freighter carrying the Cubans home that end up in Grenada is the same one that supposedly was in the hands of the UBF at the same time - the pace of releasing modules meant sometimes they contradicted each other

Gateway to the Spanish Main: SSN Corpus Christian
Last sub series: SSN-705 City of Corpus Christi

Similar names granted, but definitely different.

and keep in mind as to satellites that even with the nukes strikes that were detailed you still have two satellite launch facilities left that are definitely intact

US - Wallops Island Flight Facility has six launch pads for the Scout missile
Nothing to say that didn't get hit. Remember the strike list(s) only detail warheads of 0.5 MT or greater with only a few specific exceptions. Note also the last scout was launched in 1994 and the design retired. It also had a very small payload.

France - Guiana Space Centre - which is intact and the most likely place for satellites to be launched into orbit
First point, with it's relative proximity to the US, and the previously established targeting of important facilities in neutral countries, do you really think this wouldn't have been hit by the Soviets?
Secondly, even if it did survive, the French are militantly neutral and not sharing anything with either side. They're not going to be launching anything for anyone (even if they retain the capability during the course of the war, which is doubtful), and they're also not going to be allowing anyone to use what little they've got already up.
Also, not only Soviet and US satellites are going to be targeted and taken out. Anything in orbit it likely to be attacked, if not by a direct strike, then by shrapnel from previous attacks. While attacks are ongoing, and until it can be deemed relatively safe, nobody's going to risk sending anything up. It's not like putting up a cheap weather balloon - these things are EXPENSIVE!!!

The X-factor is the Kagoshima Space Center - which depends on if you are running version 1 or version 2 of the game - version 1 had the Japanese basically intact while version 2 had them getting nuked - and version 2 had a Challenge magazine adventure set there (Rockets Red Glare)
The Japanese aren't launching anything for the same reasons as the French. Also, during and post war (for a few years at least) they're not likely to have the raw materials and other resources to do it anyway - there's a reason why the Japanese expanded into the rest of Asia and the Pacific in the 1930's and early 40's. They just don't have many natural sources of raw materials at home.
Even if Japan hasn't been nuked (and why would the Soviets and North Koreans ignore all those US targets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_Japan#List_of_current_facilit ies), they've still got a huge (for the land size) population to try and feed. Starvation, rioting, etc would be a real problem, effectively stopping attempts at launching anything.

[kato13]

And I don't agree that the GPS network could have been taken out by the ASAT's of the 90's unless you postulate weapons that were a lot more effective than what was being looked at - the GPS satellites are at 12,500 miles - that's a heck of a lot harder to get to than the weather and surveillance satellites that orbit much lower and are thus much easier to knock out


Given that GPS orbits don't conflict with Surveillance (LEO) and Communication (GEO) if I were the soviets I would have a few ICBMs set up to put 10,000 ball bearings into an exact counter orbits to the 6 GPS tracks. Bing bang and 24 booms.

If Kerbal space program gets better at handling small objects over the horizon, I might try it.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You don't really need massive quantities of resources to launch a rocket - the question is what kind of rocket and what payloads is it carrying - and keep in mind that the timeline strongly suggests that the US didn't launch a bunch of their rockets that were in silos and the like - those rockets, at least those still operational, would be perfect to use to get a communications or weather satellite into orbit


As always, pick and choose what works for your game but I would argue that the logistics train & the personnel necessary to launch just one rocket plus the consumables necessary to maintain the logistics train and the launch facilities most definitely constitutes "massive resources". I mean, what are you using to feed & fuel all the vehicles/ships/aircraft and personnel, what fuel are you using to supply the electricity etc. etc. You can't just pluck it out of thin air.

Just because you have a few rockets sitting around unused, doesn't mean you have the resources free to actually use them. Who the hell is left to convert them to satellite carriers, who the hell is still alive to ensure the conversion is done correctly, who the hell is still available to organize all the launch requirements, where the hell is all the food coming from to feed all these people, what the hell is available to transport all that food and so on and so on ad nauseam.

[Legbreaker]

And, given the massive amount of resources required to launch and maintain just one satellite, what's wrong with the old (and very cheap) map and compass?
May not be as accurate as GPS, but with proper training it's not far off! Certainly good enough for a post apocalyptic world such as T2K, and pretty much how everyone was doing it up until the 1990's anyway.

[kalos72]

While dedicating the resources needed to launch and control a satellite T2K to GPS seems a bit far out for me...

I do NOT however feel that a large, powerful organization could not get a new one up by 2002/2003 maybe.

Now alot of things would have to "work" for the group to get that far, I do think that a dedicated, efficient group holding the right location and hardware/skill sets, could get it done.

For me, it would be about communications I think. Although I admit I am still really "newbish" when it comes to communications/radio details.

[kato13]

Found a map of the four locations that can upload corrections to the satellites (surprisingly to me via direct s-band). From 1995

http://image.slidesharecdn.com/howgpsworks-120312075138-phpapp01/95/how-gps-works-5-728.jpg?cb=1331539265

Colorado Springs (Colorado, US),
Ascension Island (South Atlantic),
Diego Garcia (Indian Ocean),
Kwajalein (North Pacific).
(Hawaii cant upload as it is only is part of the monitoring network)

Edit Replaced map due to AFB naming error (Thanks ArmySGT). Cape Canaveral went online in 2001 so please ignore

http://www.navipedia.net/index.php/GPS_Ground_Segment

Might be an interesting Last Submarine Scenario to go to either Ascention Island or Kwajalein (I've always assumed Diego Garcia was nuked) to get either data, personnel, or equipment to bring back to Colorado Springs to help keep the satellite update system there running.

Again in my game the satellites were generally shredded by a low tech ASAT solution (otherwise how can you explain the 8th Mech getting totally lost) right after the initial US Strikes (when ICBM launches are not unexpected), but the game as written has the players being responsible for transporting the inventors of low tech cold fusion technology, and bringing a microchip replacement to life, so helping to bring out of sync satellites back into service seems like an equally plausible adventure seed.

[RN7]

Once the nukes start landing I think we can forget about the US and Soviets having a satellite launching capacity. Some infrastructure and capability to launch something into orbit may survive, but not the resources to design, manufacture and test satellites.

France on the other hand might. It would depend on if you believe France was targeted by Soviet nuclear weapons in T2K or not. I don't think France was and if it was it was a limited nuclear strike on French oil refineries. The French completely withdrew from the Atlantic Alliance (they withdrew from NATO in 1966) once NATO crossed into East Germany in December 1996. Unlike Japan the French offered no support to the US or NATO before the war went nuclear in any capacity. Their actions after the nuclear strikes do not follow that of a country wounded by the Soviets. No cooperation with NATO in Europe, in fact they invade two NATO countries (Germany and the Netherlands), they carve out a new power-bloc with Belgium in Africa, they send a fully functional and well equipped military expeditionary force to the Middle East in direct rivalry to CENTCOM and the RDF, and they support French separatists in Canada.

Their main launching site is in Kourou in French Guyana which is in South America. Latin America wasn't nuked in T2K and if Kourou was nuked why did did the Soviets miss the Panama Canal? The French had another launch site in Hamaguir Algeria until the early 70's. Main French satellite tracking stations at Aussaguel and Bretigny-sur-Orge (France), Kourou (Fr. Guyana),
Kerguelen Island (southern Indian Ocean), Kiruna (Sweden) and Hartebeestehoek (South Africa) but they also used stations all over the place in Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Canada, Chile, Japan, Kenya, Norway Portugal, Spain and the US.

[Legbreaker]

Once the nukes start landing I think we can forget about the US and Soviets having a satellite launching capacity. Some infrastructure and capability to launch something into orbit may survive, but not the resources to design, manufacture and test satellites.
Agreed. IF, and that's a BIG if, anyone is in a position to launch more than a weather balloon, it'd be using existing stocks of rockets, etc. Can't imagine any new materials would be created for a good decade after the nukes, at best.
France on the other hand might. It would depend on if you believe France was targeted by Soviet nuclear weapons in T2K or not. I don't think France was and if it was it was a limited nuclear strike on French oil refineries. The French completely withdrew from the Atlantic Alliance (they withdrew from NATO in 1966) once NATO crossed into East Germany in December 1996. Unlike Japan the French offered no support to the US or NATO before the war went nuclear in any capacity. Their actions after the nuclear strikes do not follow that of a country wounded by the Soviets. No cooperation with NATO in Europe, in fact they invade two NATO countries (Germany and the Netherlands), they carve out a new power-bloc with Belgium in Africa, they send a fully functional and well equipped military expeditionary force to the Middle East in direct rivalry to CENCOM and the RDF, and they support French separatists in Canada.
Those actions occurred after the nukes, and the "invasion" of the Netherlands and Germany were little more than a realignment of the border to the river - a geographical obstacle they could use to repel the hordes of refugees. Makes perfect sense to me, and is certainly understandable, if not even forgiveable.
As for the middle east, why does any country send troops? Oil, a resource France, like every other country, really, really needs. It'd be astonishing if they didn't have a presence there!
Their main launching site is in Kourou in French Guyana which is in South America. Latin America wasn't nuked in T2K and if Kourou was nuked why did did the Soviets miss the Panama Canal?
In 2.x Chile and Brazil nuked each other. Where did they get those weapons? Was part of that deal a deniable requirement to attack French interests (Nato may have wanted a bit of payback for France abandoning them, and the Soviets to deny a historical ally of their enemy certain vital facilities and resources).

And what about conventional attacks? Not everything has to be nuked, not when conventional explosives emplaced by saboteurs will do the job. Nukes against French interests may prompt retaliation in kind, while sabotage may be either ignored in the big picture, or illicit a similar "low scale" retaliation by commandos.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'll add some fuel to this fire by pointing out that there are inventories of replacement satellites kept in parking orbits for situations where segments of satellite networks fail. Backups, if you will, that can be maneuvered into place where a former satellite was.

This still takes a lot of work on the ground presuming the backups weren't hit, too. Also you'd have to wonder if the backup satellites weren't already moved into place.

But it is worth considering.

[Legbreaker]

Also you'd have to wonder if the backup satellites weren't already moved into place.

Probably were if they could be - and hit by the same ASATs and shrapnel that took out the originals.

[RN7]

Those actions occurred after the nukes, and the "invasion" of the Netherlands and Germany were little more than a realignment of the border to the river - a geographical obstacle they could use to repel the hordes of refugees. Makes perfect sense to me, and is certainly understandable, if not even forgiveable. As for the middle east, why does any country send troops? Oil, a resource France, like every other country, really, really needs. It'd be astonishing if they didn't have a presence there!

France left the Atlantic Alliance a year before the nukes and remained completely neutral in the war. If France got nuked by the Soviets it would not be invading the Netherlands and Germany or would it have the resources to send an intervention force the size of what it does to the Middle East.


In 2.x Chile and Brazil nuked each other. Where did they get those weapons? Was part of that deal a deniable requirement to attack French interests (Nato may have wanted a bit of payback for France abandoning them, and the Soviets to deny a historical ally of their enemy certain vital facilities and resources).

Is there some reference to French Guyana been nuked?

Brazil: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/brazil/nuke.htm

Chile??? I duno where they would get nukes from, but I don't think French Guyana would be on their list.

And what about conventional attacks? Not everything has to be nuked, not when conventional explosives emplaced by saboteurs will do the job. Nukes against French interests may prompt retaliation in kind, while sabotage may be either ignored in the big picture, or illicit a similar "low scale" retaliation by commandos.

France still has a fully functional (or near enough) armed forces in T2K, including an air force and navy. T2K lists a lot of French land forces in the nearby Caribbean and French Guyana. I would say they also have enough air and naval forces around their main rocket lunching site to make anyone think twice about attacking it. France also has nuclear forces.

[Legbreaker]

Is there some reference to French Guyana been nuked?
Not directly, no, just the reference to neutrals being attacked to remove those assets for enemy use. It's up to the individual GM to decide for themselves if if was hit or not. There is a case for it, though it's debatable how strong that case is.
For my game world, it's getting hit in some way, although probably just a conventional guerilla attack on fuel storage or something like that which would take the facility out of action for a few years. Rocket fuel isn't the most stable of substances... :p

[Rainbow Six]

Disclaimer - I do not have any books in front of me - all of this is from memory so I can't quote page numbers etc. Someone that does have the relevant books and cares enough to check can likely verify (or not) the following (Legbreaker?)

Is there some reference to French Guyana been nuked?
I think there is a reference to French Guyana in the V2 NATO vehicle guide. IIRC it mentions that there's a large detachment of Foreign Legion troops providing security for the Space Centre. I don't think it specifically says whether or not said Space Centre is intact or not so each individual would need to draw their own conclusions as to whether a large detachment of Foreign Legion troops would be tasked to provide security for either a) an at least semi functional site or b) a pile of radioactive ruins.

I choose to go for A.

Chile??? I duno where they would get nukes from, but I don't think French Guyana would be on their list.

From memory it was Brazil and Argentina that had a nuclear exchange, not Brazil and Chile.

Gateway to the Spanish Main: SSN Corpus Christian
Last sub series: SSN-705 City of Corpus Christi

Similar names granted, but definitely different.

Or a typo.

[Legbreaker]

I think there is a reference to French Guyana in the V2 NATO vehicle guide. IIRC it mentions that there's a large detachment of Foreign Legion troops providing security for the Space Centre.
Nothing I could find there I'm afraid. Closest units are as follows though:

Latin American Regional Command
Current Location: Caribbean Islands
9th Marine Infantry Battalion (BIMa)
3rd Foreign Legion Infantry regiment (REI)
33rd Marine Infantry Regiment (RIMa)

From memory it was Brazil and Argentina that had a nuclear exchange, not Brazil and Chile.
Oops, my mistake. You are correct there.

[Rainbow Six]

Nothing I could find there I'm afraid. Closest units are as follows though:

Latin American Regional Command
Current Location: Caribbean Islands
9th Marine Infantry Battalion (BIMa)
3rd Foreign Legion Infantry regiment (REI)
33rd Marine Infantry Regiment (RIMa)



You made me doubt myself so I booted up my old PC to check.

Not sure where you looked - this is what I found (with page number)

V2.2 NATO Combat Vehicle Handbook, p88
3RD FOREIGN LEGION
INFANTRY REGIMENT (REI)
Subordination: Latin American Regional Command
Current Location: Kourou
Manpower: 350

(Emphasis mine)

Kourou is the location of the Guiana Space Centre

V2.2 NATO Combat Vehicle Handbook, p88
9TH MARINE INFANTRY
BATTALION (BIM)
Subordination: Latin American Regional Command
Current Location: Cayenne
Manpower: 450

(Emphasis mine)

Cayenne is the capital of French Guiana

So there is a large contingent of Foreign Legion troops in the vicinity of the site of the Guiana Space Centre and another large contingent of French troops in the capital of French Guiana..

I was mistaken about their purpose being stated - it's not. I got that from here

http://www.oocities.org/littlegreenmen.geo/T2K_France.htm

And then there's this from wikipedia

The 3rd Foreign Infantry Regiment of the French Foreign Legion, whose mission is to protect the CSG, has had a base in the Forget neighbourhood since 1973. They clashed with the Creoles in 1985 and 2006.

(CSG is the French acronym for the Guiana Space Centre)

So I'll stick with option A.

[Legbreaker]

Missed on the spelling.
Oh well, we've learnt something.

[Legbreaker]

3RD FOREIGN LEGION
INFANTRY REGIMENT (REI)
Subordination: Latin American Regional Command
Current Location: Kourou
Manpower: 350
From wikipedia
The regiment is composed of around 675 men organised into 5 companies.
Looks like they've taken about 50% casualties then. That's one hell of a lot for a country not involved in conflict!
The other units in the command also appear to have suffered very heavily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_Marine_Infantry_Regiment
https://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forces_arm%25C3%25A9es_aux_Antilles&prev=search

[Rainbow Six]

From wikipedia
Looks like they've taken about 50% casualties then. That's one hell of a lot for a country not involved in conflict!
The other units in the command also appear to have suffered very heavily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_Marine_Infantry_Regiment
https://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forces_arm%25C3%25A9es_aux_Antilles&prev=search
I suppose assuming that their losses are down to casualties is one way of looking at it. Equally possible that they have had personnel detached to serve elsewhere because things were so quiet that it was felt that they could maintain order with 50% of their manpower.

So once again, up to each individual to interpret the material as they wish - I am not seeing anything written down in a published source that definitively confirms whether the Guiana Space Center is operational or not.

[Legbreaker]

While it is possible troops were withdrawn, that's still a pretty big reduction. The 33rd for example is down to about 25% and they apparently have the largest area to cover (French speakers/readers please correct me if I'm wrong - google translate is only so good).
I like to look at it more like the launch facility was attacked in some manner and the 3rd was either caught in the blast/fallout, or was downwind and suffered casualties from toxic chemicals when the rocket fuel went up (or something along those lines). Troops from the other two units were reassigned to make up some of the losses.
It's equally possible troops were lost in conventional operations against local forces, desertion, disease, starvation, or any number of other causes.

Regardless of any of the above, it's extremely unlikely the French are going to be allowing anybody else to a) use the facility, no matter what condition it's in, or b) have access to any satellites they may happen to have in operation for any reason.

In post 2000 good communications would be vital to controlling what's left of the worlds resources. Maintaining a monopoly on this would ensure France's leading position in global matters for decades to come.

[Rainbow Six]

Regardless of any of the above, it's extremely unlikely the French are going to be allowing anybody else to a) use the facility, no matter what condition it's in, or b) have access to any satellites they may happen to have in operation for any reason.

In post 2000 good communications would be vital to controlling what's left of the worlds resources. Maintaining a monopoly on this would ensure France's leading position in global matters for decades to come.

Agreed. I've never argued anything to the contrary.

[Olefin]

Given that the French still have units deployed at the Space Center I would think it was definitely intact - there is no mention of any nuclear attacks on the French in South America - and the second version does go into some detail as to what happened in the Caribbean and South America with the only nuclear attacks mentioned being on oil producing areas in the Caribbean (which doesnt apply here) or the minor nuclear war between Argentina and Brazil (again doesnt apply here)

as to the strength of the French units and how they have been reduced - they would probably have been seeing riot control duty as well as defending the Space Center from those who want to get at any supplies that were there - and you have to remember the Dutch have a Marine battalion in the Caribbean as well - and I could easily see where they might do one heck of a raid to damage the facility or try to to get even for what the French did to them in Europe - keep in mind the Dutch Marines in Europe have been conducting their own sabotage war against the French successfully so why not have their Caribbean battalion join in on the fun?

[Olefin]

Gateway to the Spanish Main: SSN Corpus Christian
Last sub series: SSN-705 City of Corpus Christi

Similar names granted, but definitely different.


Nothing to say that didn't get hit. Remember the strike list(s) only detail warheads of 0.5 MT or greater with only a few specific exceptions. Note also the last scout was launched in 1994 and the design retired. It also had a very small payload.


First point, with it's relative proximity to the US, and the previously established targeting of important facilities in neutral countries, do you really think this wouldn't have been hit by the Soviets?
Secondly, even if it did survive, the French are militantly neutral and not sharing anything with either side. They're not going to be launching anything for anyone (even if they retain the capability during the course of the war, which is doubtful), and they're also not going to be allowing anyone to use what little they've got already up.
Also, not only Soviet and US satellites are going to be targeted and taken out. Anything in orbit it likely to be attacked, if not by a direct strike, then by shrapnel from previous attacks. While attacks are ongoing, and until it can be deemed relatively safe, nobody's going to risk sending anything up. It's not like putting up a cheap weather balloon - these things are EXPENSIVE!!!


The Japanese aren't launching anything for the same reasons as the French. Also, during and post war (for a few years at least) they're not likely to have the raw materials and other resources to do it anyway - there's a reason why the Japanese expanded into the rest of Asia and the Pacific in the 1930's and early 40's. They just don't have many natural sources of raw materials at home.
Even if Japan hasn't been nuked (and why would the Soviets and North Koreans ignore all those US targets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_Japan#List_of_current_facilit ies), they've still got a huge (for the land size) population to try and feed. Starvation, rioting, etc would be a real problem, effectively stopping attempts at launching anything.

I wont argue much on the sub but again it shows a classic example of how GDW guys may have not been talking to each other to coordinate their stories - because the sub in question sank the Cuban ship in late 2000 - which according to Last Submarine there werent any US subs left to sink that ship by 2000 - remember they grabbed the supposedly last sub a long time before that

As I have said in another thread that was one reason my GM had the sub from the Last Submarine still in US hands but with a non-functional fire system (meaning its basically useless) and the UBF having her sister sub that was mentioned as having disappeared on her last cruise - made more sense as to how the two modules interacted - but thats a different argument entirely

I would think that given how much information there is on Maryland and Virginia in the modules and Challenge that a nuclear attack on Wallops would have been mentioned for sure - the authors detailed every other US launch site as well as the Soviet ones being taken out - so leaving out the French one and Wallops may have been intentional as was Kagoshima - i.e. great material for future stories on sending out characters to retrieve technology

as for the French launching anything - if anyone still has the ability to build satellites its them - and again we aren't talking state of the art here - the tech to build the satellites of the 1960's and 70's would still be available to them - and considering they are one of the few nations that still have forces deployed worldwide they would need functional communication satellites if only one or two

[StainlessSteelCynic]

It may have been intentional but without one of the GDW staffers to confirm that we will never know. There's an equal chance it may have been simply missed (for example, Wallops became part of the Goddard Space Flight Centre in 1981 so the GDW crew may have been thinking of it as part of Goddards) or it may have been one of those sites hit with a smaller warhead, it may have been hit by other means (e.g. sub-launched conventional warhead, special forces raids or other exotics) or it may have been intended for a later adventure scenario and as mentioned by GDW themselves, they intentionally did not list the entire nuclear arsenal of each side as being used because they decided to leave some for individual GMs to use as they saw fit to enhance their own games, that is to say, they deliberately left some targets and they deliberately left some warheads so that the GMs could tailor the attacks to their own games.

[bobcat]

the biggest problem with this debate is one key fact. by 1998 per V1 or V2 cannon nothing would be able to survive in any of the low or mid earth orbits. between debris from ASAT hits, nuclear intercepts, lost satellites from EMP. the world would be looking at severe Kessler Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome). the magnitude of this would ground any attempts at launches for several decades at the earliest and even then only high earth and geosynchronous orbits would likely be feasible.

[Legbreaker]

...only high earth and geosynchronous orbits would likely be feasible.

And even GETTING there would be extremely risky!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I did kinda hint at the problem with space debris in one of my earlier comments but I didn't think the problem would be quite so bad!
So irrespective of usable rockets that are conveniently near enough to the launch pad and irrespective of the willingness to commit vital resources to an endeavour that has extremely limited usage and low rates of success, there's unlikely to be any way to bypass the debris field until a nation is in a position to actually clean up the low- and mid-range orbits.

[.45cultist]

Sheesh, that means the situation with GPS satellites would be even worse than the info I found!
One day would be enough to make it worthless as a navigational aid so the USA and its allies better remember their map & compass nav skills :eek:

There is an uneven trend to correct the reliance on digital navigation. Not just the military, but civil aviation as well. Uneven because the U.S. started with aviation and armor. 11B are personal initiative of the training nco's and officers. This was from discussions, reading various articles and is by no means "scientific".

[Legbreaker]

Shame it's about 20 years too late for T2K... :(

[Targan]

So there is a large contingent of Foreign Legion troops in the vicinity of the site of the Guiana Space Centre and another large contingent of French troops in the capital of French Guiana.

Hmm, that certainly does suggest that either the space launch facility is intact, or there's enough left that the French think it's worth protecting with a considerable investment of manpower.

[Targan]

The next paragraph radically changes the context of the quotes as far as this discussion goes.

Whoops :o

Given how important the GPS system is I could see MILGOV sacrificing quite a bit to make sure they can update them twice a year. Don't know how long they could keep them working but they would sure try.

In my world the GPS system would be some where between useless (If ASATs or EMP were really effective), to only being able to provide accurate time (if say 3 or 4 are alive) , to the least likely option partially functional (with like 8 sats working properly, like during the deployment for "desert shield").

If you say you can only get a link for 4 hours every 4 days that could be a useful plot device. You could even have a few sats giving out erroneous information so if you check during other times you get totally wrong information.

Sounds reasonable.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that even a catastrophic Kessler scenario in LEO (low earth orbit) poses a minimal risk for launches of craft that are going past LEO - or for satellites and craft above LEO. Also even in the worst case scenario what you get is an increase in the number of collisions, not a physically impassable barrier to space exploration or a barrier that prevents craft to getting to higher orbits.

After all the Soviet weather satellite did survive to re-enter - if the debris had been so bad that LEO was impassible then it would been destroyed long before.

Also the debris in LEO will eventually decay and re-enter just due to residual air drag at those orbital heights - meaning that in a couple of decades at most the increase in collision risks will significantly be reduced.

And France has one big advantage in that they may very well have an intact satellite manufacturer - i.e. Cannes Mandelieu Space Center in Cannes has been making satellites for quite a while - i.e. the satellite division of Aerospatiale - so that would give the French most likely the last intact satellite manufacturing plant in the world and a launch facility that they could use as well - the question is how much of their facilities are still in one piece along with engineers and technicians

[RN7]

http://www.oocities.org/littlegreenmen.geo/T2K_France.htm

I love it when people quote my work.

[RN7]

Keep in mind that even a catastrophic Kessler scenario in LEO (low earth orbit) poses a minimal risk for launches of craft that are going past LEO - or for satellites and craft above LEO. Also even in the worst case scenario what you get is an increase in the number of collisions, not a physically impassable barrier to space exploration or a barrier that prevents craft to getting to higher orbits.

After all the Soviet weather satellite did survive to re-enter - if the debris had been so bad that LEO was impassible then it would been destroyed long before.

Also the debris in LEO will eventually decay and re-enter just due to residual air drag at those orbital heights - meaning that in a couple of decades at most the increase in collision risks will significantly be reduced.

And France has one big advantage in that they may very well have an intact satellite manufacturer - i.e. Cannes Mandelieu Space Center in Cannes has been making satellites for quite a while - i.e. the satellite division of Aerospatiale - so that would give the French most likely the last intact satellite manufacturing plant in the world and a launch facility that they could use as well - the question is how much of their facilities are still in one piece along with engineers and technicians

I think higher orbits were for example the French would place an INTEL satellite would be at lest risk from debris due to their being less junk at that altitude.

[.45cultist]

The impact of EMP would be felt more among the younger digital generations. Something to stress in role-playing T2013 or later timelines. If I run a game for my nephews again, I'll have to have my map protractor as an aid.

[rcaf_777]

Well since no one is going to ask, I going too. Why is it that the intro in Satellite down contradict the downing of DP 201?

And why dose the downing of DP 201 contradict the rest of the Twilight 2000 Version 1 Timeline?

[bobcat]

There is an uneven trend to correct the reliance on digital navigation. Not just the military, but civil aviation as well. Uneven because the U.S. started with aviation and armor. 11B are personal initiative of the training nco's and officers. This was from discussions, reading various articles and is by no means "scientific".

very uneven in aviation with GPS based systems replacing older systems for most air traffic control systems. not to get int specifics(you can google all of this and there's even a few defcon talks on the subject you can watch on youtube) but most commercial aircraft now have a built in guidance and collision avoidance system that is driven almost entirely off of GPS data.

[Legbreaker]

Well since no one is going to ask, I going too. Why is it that the intro in Satellite down contradict the downing of DP 201?

And why dose the downing of DP 201 contradict the rest of the Twilight 2000 Version 1 Timeline?

How does it do that?

[rcaf_777]

Page 4

"Now, during the height of the war, just about every satellite on both sides was knocked down or rendered worthless junk."

And on Page 5

But due to some damage from America's space-born anti satellite system and lack of good ground signal communication, it crashed off the coast of Mexico in the Gulf of California.

So ever other Satellite is worthless junk except for America's space-born anti satellite system which is in orbit and knocked out DP 201

Funny how it could knock a satellite but not a ICBM missile, hmmm wasn't that the point of SDI?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You seem to have missed the point.
The text refers to the American anti-SATELLITE system and NOT the anti-missile system.

[rcaf_777]

if you say so but SDI came first and then it's research was applied latter to anti satellite warfare. So if you shoot a orbiting satellite traveling around 6000-7000 miles per hour, why couldn't it shoot a missile out of the sky?

You find some pictures of how the system was to work here

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Space_weapons

There is also a chart on how high a EMP wave can travel upwards

http://royal.pingdom.com/2010/03/23/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-gps/

[bobcat]

if you say so but SDI came first and then it's research was applied latter to anti satellite warfare. So if you shoot a orbiting satellite traveling around 6000-7000 miles per hour, why couldn't it shoot a missile out of the sky?

simple a satellite is a single target, a MIRV in post-boost phase is at least a dozen targets plus decoys. given the scale of the TDM it is easy to see how such systems can be overwhelmed especially considering the effects of previous intercepts, opposing ASAT/SDI systems, hostile network-based attacks, and our dear friend Murphey.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Plus, you know, general and special relativity...

A satellite targeting another satellite in orbit is not travelling very fast relative to the other satellite because they are both travelling at roughly the same speeds (and the speeds are irrelevant for this purpose as long as they are roughly the same).
It's the same sort of thing if two cowboys on horseback were trying to shoot each other - relative to each other, they aren't moving particularly fast but relative to someone standing still, they're both moving too fast to get an accurate shot at.
This is what applies to a satellite trying to shoot down in incoming ICBM. Relative to the ICBM, the satellite is practically standing still.

[.45cultist]

very uneven in aviation with GPS based systems replacing older systems for most air traffic control systems. not to get int specifics(you can google all of this and there's even a few defcon talks on the subject you can watch on youtube) but most commercial aircraft now have a built in guidance and collision avoidance system that is driven almost entirely off of GPS data.

I think that the powers that be decided to settle on teaching the old stuff to show what to do when the guidance and positioning devices fail, depriving the crews of the GPS data. Also malfunctioning systems are accidently rotated back onto aircraft. This happened to my dad, the FAA told him to personally take a hammer the the auto pilot in question.
It would be quite a scenario involving armor guys to have these fail in a campaign. An old timer NPC might be needed to instruct PC's in the old style.

[Targan]

simple a satellite is a single target, a MIRV in post-boost phase is at least a dozen targets plus decoys. given the scale of the TDM it is easy to see how such systems can be overwhelmed especially considering the effects of previous intercepts, opposing ASAT/SDI systems, hostile network-based attacks, and our dear friend Murphey.

The ABM programs of both the US and Soviets during the 1980s were focused on shooting down ICBMs before they became sub-orbital.

Interesting article from earlier this week:

The Rise and Fall of the Soviet 'Death Star' (http://www.realcleardefense.com/2016/01/11/the_rise_and_fall_of_the_soviet_039death_star039_2 77921.html)

[unkated]

You don't really need massive quantities of resources to launch a rocket - the question is what kind of rocket and what payloads is it carrying

To launch a rocket? no.

To build the rocket parts - or even assemble a rocket from spare parts from different parts across the US? I have my doubts.

To assemble a satellite in post-1997 US? To calculate a useful orbit, launch (easy) and track that it hit orbit, and get useful data downloads or communication links (as payment for the effort)? I have graver doubts.



keep in mind that the timeline strongly suggests that the US didn't launch a bunch of their rockets that were in silos and the like -


Yes.



those rockets, at least those still operational,
would be perfect to use to get a communications or weather satellite into orbit

Not really. These are suborbital. They could probably be repurposed to get a smaller package (satellite) into a stable LEO. To launch into a useful GSO (GeoSynchronous Orbit) where the satellite would stay overhead and provide useful weather comverage over a large chunk of earth or a while? No. And therefore probably not worth the effort. LEO commo satellites are only useful in a constellation; teh lower the orbit, the more needed for coverage.

Uncle Ted

[unkated]

Given that the French still have units deployed at the Space Center I would think it was definitely intact - there is no mention of any nuclear attacks on the French in South America - and the second version does go into some detail as to what happened in the Caribbean and South America with the only nuclear attacks mentioned being on oil producing areas in the Caribbean (which doesnt apply here)

except as seen below.

...you have to remember the Dutch have a Marine battalion in the Caribbean as well - and I could easily see where they might do one heck of a raid to damage the facility or try to to get even for what the French did to them in Europe - keep in mind the Dutch Marines in Europe have been conducting their own sabotage war against the French successfully so why not have their Caribbean battalion join in on the fun?

The Dutch marines are unlikley to have been a big factor:

Feb, 1999 Nuke target: Isla Refinery in Willemstad harbor - which serves as a refinery for Venezuelan oil - also taking out the Netherlands naval base at Curacao and the Marine barracks there as well. (distance is less than 3 km). Killed much of the island’s population and infrastructure.

[unkated]

Page 4

"Now, during the height of the war, just about every satellite on both sides was knocked down or rendered worthless junk."

And on Page 5

But due to some damage from America's space-born anti satellite system and lack of good ground signal communication, it crashed off the coast of Mexico in the Gulf of California.

So ever other Satellite is worthless junk except for America's space-born anti satellite system which is in orbit and knocked out DP 201

Funny how it could knock a satellite but not a ICBM missile, hmmm wasn't that the point of SDI?

Where does it say that they did not?

The issue is the US anti-satellite system did not shoot down all of them. Nothing says how many incoming missiles were knocked down, or how many attempted defenses failed to stop incoming missiles - though apparently a number of them failed.

As I recall, ASAT testing never appeared to do that well, even in controlled test cases.


Uncle Ted

[rcaf_777]

Feb, 1999 Nuke target: Isla Refinery in Willemstad harbor.

Where did you find that

[rcaf_777]

As I recall, ASAT testing never appeared to do that well, even in controlled test cases. Uncle Ted

Well lets look at the one test

On September 13, 1985 P78-1 or Solwind was destroyed by a ASM-135 ASAT anti-satellite missile.

Source http://orbitaldebris.jsc.nasa.gov/library/SatelliteFragHistory/TM-2008-214779.pdf

Also Operation Burnt Frost was a success, however it dose fall outside of Twilight timeline

http://www.mda.mil/system/aegis_one_time_mission.html

Here's a link to the article on the Soviet attempts to build a laser for ASAT, funding was the only barrier to it development and employment

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1891&dat=19840410&id=fqkfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=etYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2785,2451827&hl=en

It was also mentioned how easy it would to knock out GPS and other satellite, here a article on what China would have to do knock out a US satellite. The Principal is sound and I don't see what the Soviets could do what is required. But being at war with China and the US the Soviet resources might be stretched thin. The Article also hints that the phasing out of many photo recon birds, as drones are cheaper and easier to use.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/11/chinas-deceptively-weak-anti-satellite-capabilities/

[RN7]

Here's a link to the article on the Soviet attempts to build a laser for ASAT, funding was the only barrier to it development and employment

Here is a link about Soviet ASAT development.

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/naryad.html

[Olefin]

except as seen below.



The Dutch marines are unlikley to have been a big factor:

Feb, 1999 Nuke target: Isla Refinery in Willemstad harbor - which serves as a refinery for Venezuelan oil - also taking out the Netherlands naval base at Curacao and the Marine barracks there as well. (distance is less than 3 km). Killed much of the island’s population and infrastructure.

Ok I have looked thru the first edition, the 2nd edition and the Caribbean module as well as my Challenge articles - where is this in the canon? It said that various areas were attacked conventionally and with nuclear attacks but there was no specific mention of an attack on Willemstad

And the Marines were also based at Aruba as well

[rcaf_777]

Good Info on busted Satellites