Australia in T2K (Long) [Archive]

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RN7

03-21-2016, 02:23 PM

I can't remember who wrote this article or exactly were I first came across it (I think one of the 2300AD forums), but does anybody think that Australia could field land forces of this size in T2K?

The Australian Army

Location (as of July 1, 2000) and approximate strengths of the major military units of the Australian Army. First, it contains an order of battle giving command structures, locations, and subordinate units. This is followed by a brief history and current status rundown of each of the major units listed, as of July 1, 2000. Referees are allowed considerable freedom in manipulating this data to suit the needs of their campaign. The order of battle includes units of other nations under Australian control. This includes the divisions from New Zealand and Jordan as well as the entire Papua New Guinea Defence Force. Strengths of units are given in overall personnel to the nearest five hundred or one hundred if under one thousand and current major weapon (tanks, assault guns, warships and combat aircraft) strength. Most of these units have additional numbers of heavy weapons, light armoured vehicles, soft-skinned vehicles, utility aircraft and small boats. They have also acquired non-issue equipment by various means. While the Australian Army officially maintains the original order of battles of most units they are now almost completely organised into ad hoc groups usually comprising the remnants of a brigade and attached supporting arms.

ORDER OF BATTLE

I Australian Corps (3rd Australian Expeditionary Force)
Current Location: South West Iran

1st Australian Armoured Division

1st Infantry Brigade (Mechanised)
1st Armoured Regiment
8th Medium Regiment (Self-Propelled), RAA
1st Combat Engineer Regiment (Mechanised), RAE
5th Battalion (Mechanised), RAR
7th Battalion (Mechanised), RAR
1st Forward Support Battalion (Mechanised)

2nd Infantry Brigade (Mechanised)
4th Cavalry Regiment (Mechanised)
12th Medium Regiment (Self-Propelled), RAA
6th Combat Engineer Regiment (Mechanised), RAE
1st Battalion (Mechanised), RAR
2nd Battalion (Mechanised), RAR
2nd Forward Support Battalion (Mechanised)

6th Infantry Brigade (Mechanised)
5th Armoured Regiment
1st Medium Regiment (Self-Propelled), RAA
2nd Combat Engineer Regiment (Mechanised), RAE
8th Battalion (Mechanised), RAR
9th Battalion (Mechanised), RAR
6th Forward Support Battalion (Mechanised)

Divisional Troops
2nd Cavalry Regiment (Reconnaissance)
16th Air Defence Regiment, RAA
21st Support Engineer Regiment, RAE
1st Signal Regiment, RASigs
1st Aviation Regiment, AAAC
1st Military Intelligence Battalion
1st Military Police Battalion
1st Logistic Support Battalion
1st Medical Support Battalion

2nd Australian Armoured Division

1st Armoured Brigade
6th Armoured Regiment
7th Armoured Regiment
22nd Medium Regiment (Self-Propelled), RAA
31st Combat Engineer Regiment (Mechanised), RAE
10th Battalion (Mechanised), RAR
22nd Forward Support Battalion (Mechanised)

11th Infantry Brigade (Mechanised)
11th Light Horse (QMI) (Mechanised)
11th Medium Regiment (Self-Propelled), RAA
11th Combat Engineer Regiment (Mechanised), RAE
31st Battalion (Mechanised), RQR
42nd Battalion (Mechanised), RQR
11th Forward Support Battalion (Mechanised)

13th Infantry Brigade (Mechanised)
3rd Medium Regiment (Self-Propelled), RAA
13th Combat Engineer Regiment (Mechanised), RAE
11th Battalion (Mechanised), RWAR
16th Battalion (Mechanised), RWAR
28th Battalion (Mechanised), RWAR
13th Forward Support Battalion (Mechanised)

Divisional Troops
10th Light Horse (Reconnaissance)
19th Air Defence Regiment, RAA
24th Engineer Support Regiment, RAE
4th Signal Regiment, RASigs
4th Aviation Regiment, AAAC
4th Military Intelligence Battalion
4th Military Police Battalion
4th Logistics Support Battalion
4th Medical Support Battalion

The New Zealand Division

4th Infantry Brigade
16th Field Regiment, RNZA
2nd/1st Battalion, RNZIR
3rd (Auckland (Countess of Ranfurly's Own) and Northland) Battalion, RNZIR
7th (City of Wellington's Own and Hawke's Bay) Battalion, RNZIR

7th Infantry Brigade
1st Field Regiment, RNZA
1st Battalion, RNZIR
2nd (Canterbury and Nelson, Marlborough, and West Coast) Battalion, RNZIR
4th (Otago and Southland) Battalion, RNZIR

1st Armoured Regiment
Queen Alexandra's Mounted Rifles Squadron
The Waikato Mounted Rifles Squadron
The Otago Hussars Squadron
1st Squadron, New Zealand Scottish

Jordanian 5th Armoured Division
40th Armoured Brigade
60th Armoured Brigade

1st Cavalry Brigade
1st Royal New South Wales Lancers (Reconnaissance)
15th Northern Rivers Lancers (Reconnaissance)
16th Hunter River Lancers (Reconnaissance)
21st Medium Regiment (Self-Propelled), RAA
6th Aviation Regiment, AAAC
21st Forward Support Battalion (Mechanised)

The Special Air Service Regiment
152nd Signal Squadron, RASigs
1st Commando Company
4th Commando Company (Tank Attack)
1st Squadron, SAS Regiment
2nd Squadron, SAS Regiment
171st Aviation Squadron, AAAC

II Australian Corps
Current Location: Far North Queensland, Papua New Guinea and Eastern Indonesia

2nd Australian Division

5th Infantry Brigade
23rd Field Regiment, RAA
5th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
1st Battalion, RNSWR
3rd Battalion, RNSWR
4th Battalion, RNSWR
1st Battalion, RPIR
5th Forward Support Battalion

7th Infantry Brigade
5th Field Regiment, RAA
7th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
9th Battalion, RQR
25th Battalion, RQR
49th Battalion, RQR
4th Battalion, RPIR
7th Forward Support Battalion

8th Infantry Brigade
7th Field Regiment, RAA
8th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
2nd Battalion, RNSWR
17th Battalion, RNSWR
41st Battalion, RNSWR
3rd Battalion, RPIR
8th Forward Support Battalion

Divisional Troops
2nd Light Horse (QMI) (Armoured)
14th Light Horse (QMI) (Reconnaissance)
17th Air Defence Regiment, RAA
22nd Support Engineer Regiment, RAE
8th Signal Regiment, RASigs
2nd Aviation Regiment, AAAC
2nd Military Intelligence Battalion
2nd Military Police Battalion
2nd Logistics Support Battalion
2nd Medical Support Battalion

4th Australian Division

16th Infantry Brigade
24th Field Regiment, RAA
16th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
19th Battalion, RNSWR
45th Battalion, RNSWR
53rd Battalion, RNSWR
6th Battalion, RPIR
16th Forward Support Battalion

17th Infantry Brigade
25th Field Regiment, RAA
17th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
15th Battalion, RQR
26th Battalion, RQR
47th Battalion, RQR
2nd Battalion, RPIR
17th Forward Support Battalion

18th Infantry Brigade
26th Field Regiment, RAA
18th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
30th Battalion, RNSWR
13th Battalion, RNSWR
56th Battalion, RNSWR
5th Battalion, RPIR
18th Forward Support Battalion

Divisional Troops
12th Light Horse (Reconnaissance)
24th Light Horse (Armoured)
27th Air Defence Regiment, RAA
26th Engineer Support Regiment, RAE
6th Signal Regiment, RASigs
9th Aviation Regiment, AAAC
6th Military Intelligence Battalion
6th Military Police Battalion
6th Logistics Support Battalion
6th Medical Support Battalion

3rd Infantry Brigade (Airborne)
3rd Cavalry Regiment (Airborne)
4th Light Regiment (Airborne), RAA
3rd Combat Engineer Regiment (Airborne), RAE
3rd Battalion (Parachute), RAR
4th Battalion (Parachute), RAR
6th Battalion (Parachute), RAR
51st Battalion (RFSU), FNQR
5th Aviation Regiment, AAAC
3rd Forward Support Battalion (Airborne)

1st Commando Regiment
126th Signal Squadron, RASigs
2nd Commando Company
3rd Commando Company
6th Commando Company
3rd Squadron, SAS Regiment
Special Forces Unit, PNGDF

Northern Command
Current Location: Northern and Western Australia.

3rd Australian Division

4th Infantry Brigade
2nd Field Regiment, RAA
4th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
5th Battalion, RVR
6th Battalion, RVR
8th/7th Battalion, RVR
4th Forward Support Battalion

9th Infantry Brigade
13th Field Regiment, RAA
9th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
10th Battalion, RSAR
27th Battalion, RSAR
12th/40th Battalion, RTR
9th Forward Support Battalion

10th Infantry Brigade
10th Field Regiment, RAA
10th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
38th Battalion, RVR
52nd Battalion, RVR
58th Battalion, RVR
The Pilbara Regiment (RFSU)
10th Forward Support Battalion

Divisional Troops
3rd South Australian Mounted Rifles (Reconnaissance)
17th Prince of Wales’s Light Horse (Armoured)
18th Air Defence Regiment, RAA
23rd Support Engineer Regiment, RAE
3rd Signal Regiment, RASigs
3rd Aviation Regiment, AAAC
3rd Military Intelligence Battalion
3rd Military Police Battalion
3rd Logistics Support Battalion
3rd Medical Support Battalion

5th Military District

7th Military District

2nd Cavalry Brigade
8th Cavalry Regiment (Reconnaissance)
9th Cavalry Regiment (Reconnaissance)
10th Cavalry Regiment (Reconnaissance)
101st Field Regiment, RAA
The North West Mobile Force (RFSU)
23rd Forward Support Battalion

Australian Theatre
Current Location: South Eastern Australia (NSW, Vic, Qld)

III Australian Corps

3rd Australian Armoured Division

2nd Armoured Brigade
7th Australian Horse (Mechanised)
6th New South Wales Mounted Rifles (Mechanised)
21st Riverina Horse (Mechanised)
102nd Field Regiment, RAA
32nd Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
24th Forward Support Battalion

3rd Armoured Brigade
9th Light Horse (Mechanised)
18th Adelaide Lancers (Mechanised)
23rd Light Horse (Mechanised)
103rd Field Regiment, RAA
33rd Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
25th Forward Support Battalion

4th Armoured Brigade
8th Light Horse (Mechanised)
13th Light Horse (Mechanised)
20th Victorian Mounted Rifles (Mechanised)
104th Field Regiment, RAA
34th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
26th Forward Support Battalion

Divisional Troops
5th Light Horse (QMI) (Reconnaissance)
27th Engineer Support Regiment, RAE
9th Signal Regiment, RASigs
7th Military Intelligence Battalion
7th Military Police Battalion
7th Logistics Support Battalion
7th Medical Support Battalion

1st Australian Division

12th Infantry Brigade
6th Field Regiment, RAA
12th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
29th Battalion, RVR
32nd Battalion, RVR
22nd/37th Battalion, RVR
12th Forward Support Battalion

14th Infantry Brigade
14th Field Regiment, RAA
14th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
21st Battalion, RVR
23rd Battalion, RVR
59th Battalion, RVR
14th Forward Support Battalion

15th Infantry Brigade
15th Field Regiment, RAA
15th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
43rd/48th Battalion, RSAR
44th Battalion, RWAR
50th Battalion, RTR
15th Forward Support Battalion

Divisional Troops
4th Light Horse (Armoured)
19th Light Horse (Reconnaissance)
20th Air Defence Regiment, RAA
25th Engineer Support Regiment, RAE
5th Signal Regiment, RASigs
8th Aviation Regiment, AAAC
5th Military Intelligence Battalion
5th Military Police Battalion
5th Logistics Support Battalion
5th Medical Support Battalion

5th Australian Division

19th Infantry Brigade
28th Field Regiment, RAA
19th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
Queensland University Regiment (Infantry)
Adelaide University Regiment (Infantry)
Western Australia University Regiment (Infantry)
19th Forward Support Battalion

20th Infantry Brigade
29th Field Regiment, RAA
20th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
14th Battalion, RVR
57th Battalion, RVR
60th Battalion, RVR
20th Forward Support Battalion

21st Infantry Brigade
30th Field Regiment, RAA
35th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
18th Battalion, RNSWR
20th Battalion, RNSWR
55th Battalion, RNSWR
27th Forward Support Battalion

Divisional Troops
Sydney University Scouts (Reconnaissance)
Monash University Regiment (Armoured)
28th Engineer Support Regiment, RAE
11th Signal Regiment, RASigs
8th Military Intelligence Battalion
8th Military Police Battalion
8th Logistics Support Battalion
8th Medical Support Battalion

6th Australian Division

22nd Infantry Brigade
32nd Field Regiment, RAA
36th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
33rd Battalion, RNSWR
35th Battalion, RNSWR
61st Battalion, RQR
28th Forward Support Battalion

23rd Infantry Brigade
33rd Field Regiment, RAA
37thCombat Engineer Regiment, RAE
24th Battalion, RVR
39th Battalion, RVR
46th Battalion, RVR
29th Forward Support Battalion

24th Infantry Brigade
34th Field Regiment, RAA
38th Combat Engineer Regiment, RAE
34th Battalion, RNSWR
36th Battalion, RNSWR
54th Battalion, RNSWR
30th Forward Support Battalion

Divisional Troops
Melbourne University Rifles (Reconnaissance)
University of New South Wales Regiment (Armoured)
29th Engineer Support Regiment, RAE
12th Signal Regiment, RASigs
9th Military Intelligence Battalion
9th Military Police Battalion
9th Logistics Support Battalion
9th Medical Support Battalion

3rd Cavalry Brigade
27th Light Horse (Mounted)
28th Light Horse (Mounted)
29th Light Horse (Mounted)

1st Military District

2nd Military District

3rd Military District

7th Commando Regiment
5th Commando Company
7th Commando Company
8th Commando Company

The Tactical Assault Group (SAS)

6th Military District
Current Location: Tasmania

The Tasmanian Defence Brigade
22nd Light Horse Regiment (Tasmanian Mounted Infantry)
26th Light Horse Regiment (Tasmanian Mounted Infantry)
12th Infantry Battalion (The Launceston Regiment)
40th Infantry Battalion (The Derwent Regiment)
50th Infantry Battalion (The Tasmanian Rangers)

Abbreviations

AAAC: Australian Army Aviation Corps
FNQR: Far North Queensland Regiment
PNGDF: Papua New Guinea Defence Force
QMI: Queensland Mounted Infantry
RAA: Royal Australian Artillery
RAAC: Royal Australian Armoured Corps
RAE: Royal Australian Corps of Engineers
RAIC: Royal Australian Infantry Corps
RAR: Royal Australian Regiment
RASigs: Royal Australian Corps of Signals
RFSU: Regional Force Surveillance Unit
RNSWR: Royal New South Wales Regiment
RNZA: Royal New Zealand Artillery
RNZIR: Royal New Zealand Infantry Regiment
RPIR: Royal Pacific Islands Regiment
RQR: Royal Queensland Regiment
RSAR: Royal South Australia Regiment
RTR: Royal Tasmania Regiment
RVR: Royal Victoria Regiment
RWAR: Royal Western Australia Regiment
SAS: Special Air Service

UNIT HISTORY AND CURRENT STATUS

ARMOURED DIVISIONS

1st Australian Armoured Division
A pre-war regular division known as the 1st Division with 1st Brigade (Mechanised) based in Darwin, NT, 2nd Brigade (Motorised) in Sydney, NSW and 6th Brigade (Motorised) in Brisbane, Qld. The full division was upgraded to armoured status and brought to a combat ready state during the defence build-up of 1995 and 1996. In early 1997 the division was deployed to the Middle East as the core component of the Australian contribution to the widening war between the West and the Soviet Union. The division came under the control of the US Central Command when it arrived at Saudi Arabian ports in February 1997. Attached to the US XVIII Airborne Corps the division was deployed to Iran, disembarking at the port of Abadan on May 3rd and deploying to combat straight off the boat. The division passed through the hard pressed US 82nd Airborne Division to drive the Soviet 104th Guards Air Assault Division out of its positions at Khorramshahr. Several Soviet counter attacks against the Khorramshahr/Abadan pocket were repelled after the 82nd Airborne was withdrawn. In concert with the US 24th Infantry Division (Mechanised) the division attacked northwards from early June towards Ahvaz as part of the US Congress mandated offensive. The attack stalled at the end of July when Soviet forces counterattacked. The division covered the withdrawal of the 24th Infantry from Ahvaz and was itself forced back to Khorramshahr. Tactical nuclear weapons were first used in late August and the division suffered heavy casualties from these weapons. After repelling a Soviet 7th Guards Army attack on October 6th the division launched limited counterattacks to tie down Soviet forces in support of Operation Pegasus II, the allied deep offensive. In late October the division began its drive on Ahvaz, overrunning the Soviet 261st Motorised Rifle Division and cutting off the badly mauled Soviet 24th Guards Motorised Rifle Division which was destroyed by the 24th Infantry. While the 24th Infantry took Ahvaz, the division leapfrogged northwards capturing Dezful. By the new year the two divisions had secured the entire Khuzestan Plain and linked up with the 82nd Airborne. On 26/1/98 the division linked up with the newly deployed 2nd Australian Armoured Division and the New Zealand Division to form I Australian Corps. Most of 1998 was spent in local security missions attempting to deal with the growing crisis caused by the GNE of late 1997. The Soviet 7th Guards Army launched another offensive in early August but this attack was repelled. In June 1999 the Soviets again launched an offensive but this faltered because of the collapse of their Iraqi allies leaving the Australians in control of the Khuzestan Plain.
Subordination: I Australian Corps
Current Location: Ahvaz, Iran
Manpower: 5,000
Major Weapons: 46 Waler-120, 7 M1A2, 2 M1A1

2nd Australian Armoured Division
The division headquarters was formed 18/11/95 at Holsworthy Barracks, NSW and took under command the pre-war reserve 11th Brigade based in Townsville, Qld and the 13th Brigade from Perth, WA. The newly formed 1st Armoured Brigade in Sydney, NSW, brought the division to full strength. Mobilised under the general mobilisation order after the first US troops crossed the East German border in December 1996, the division was brought to full strength and began intensive training for conversion to armoured levels. The division was deployed along with the headquarters of I Australian Corps to Saudi Arabia during June/July 1997 to reinforce US Central Command and the 1st Australian Armoured Division. The division was responsible for security of the vital Saudi Arabian ports and oil fields along the north west coast of the Persian Gulf. Deployed to Iran on the eve of 1998 the division linked up with the 1st Australian Armoured under I Australian Corps control. After defeating two separate Soviet attacks the division has remained as a security force for the Khuzestan Plain, vital for its agriculture.
Subordination: I Australian Corps
Current Location: Dezful/Shushtar, Iran
Manpower: 5,500
Major Weapons: 48  Waler-AGV

3rd Australian Armoured Division
The division was formed 26/1/96 at Victoria Barracks, Brisbane with three brigades, the 2nd Armoured based in Wagga Wagga, NSW, the 3rd Armoured based in Woodside, SA and the 4th Armoured based in Puckapunyal, VIC. The division was deployed to South Australia, where it took advantage of this state’s large military training areas and defence infrastructure to train and equip for mechanised combat. SA was hit the hardest by the GNE with eight nuclear warheads detonating within 24 hours on "Ash Sunday," November 2, 1997, causing considerable destruction and nuclear fallout. The GNE and subsequent chaos decimated 7th Division and it was almost destroyed during its attempts to bring order to SA. The division was pulled out as part of the general evacuation of Adelaide during the summer of 97/98 and was transferred to Puckapunyal, Vic for rest and refitting. Once it was ready for operations again, in late 1999, the division was used to cover the general evacuation from the interior of Australia. Since then the 7th Division has provided the primary covering force for the line of control through central NSW and south eastern Queensland. The divisions main role is long range fire sweeps into uncontrolled areas, assisting local governments and trying to wipe out marauder groups and challenges to Australian Theatre’s authority.
Subordination: III Australian Corps
Current Location: Central NSW
Manpower: 14,000
Major Weapons: 98  Waler-AGV

Jordanian 5th Armoured Division
A pre-war crack regular Jordanian division stationed at the capital Amman. The division was deployed to Saudi Arabia under the command of the US Central Command in January 1999. Soon the division was rotated into the combat zone in Iran and came under control of I Australian Corps which it has since remained subordinate to. Brigadier HRH Prince Abdullah the oldest son of HRH King Hussein the Hashemite King of Jordan commands the division.
Subordination: I Australian Corps
Current Location: Basra. Iraq
Manpower: 3,500
Major Weapons: 45  Khalid 2

INFANTRY DIVISIONS

1st Australian Division
The division was formed as a reserve formation on 26/1/96 at Victoria Barracks, Melbourne with three brigades; the 14th based in Melbourne, Vic, the 15th based in Puckapunyal, Vic and the 16th with units across SA, WA and Tas. The division was mobilised on 1/1/97 and tasked with the security of southern and central WA including Perth, Kalgoorlie and the Pilbara. The division was severely damaged by the nuclear strikes on the Perth region and suffered heavy casualties trying to quell civil disturbance during the summer of 97/98. After the division’s positions in the west became untenable it was withdrawn to Victoria in late 1998. The division was brought up to full strength during a spell of rest and recovery at Puckapunyal Barracks, Vic. Australian Theatre then allocated the division the ‘fire brigade’ role for security in the 3rd Military District area.
Subordination: III Australian Corps
Current Location: Victoria
Manpower: 16,000
Major Weapons: 14  Leopard 1

2nd Australian Division
A pre-war reserve division with 5th Brigade based in Sydney, NSW, 7th Brigade in Brisbane, Qld and 8th Brigade in Newcastle, NSW. The division was upgraded to ready reserve status (about half full time personnel) and brought to a combat ready state during the defence build-up of 1995 and 1996. Mobilised in December 1996 as the US entered the war against the Soviet Union the division was deployed in security roles across North Eastern Australia. The division deployed its 7th Brigade to Papua New Guinea (PNG) in late 1997 to quell increasing urban and rural violence caused by the global destruction of the general nuclear exchange (GNE). When Indonesia attacked PNG in January 1998 the 7th Brigade held of the Indonesian 17th and 18th Airborne Brigades’ assault on Port Moresby. Reinforced by the rest of 2nd Division the Australian and PNG counterattack overrun the remaining Indonesian forces south of the highlands during operations in February. 2nd Division, reinforced by the 1st and 3rd Battalions of the Royal Pacific Islands Regiment then began a series of amphibious and airmobile strikes against the Indonesian cantonments across the northern shore of PNG. On the 3rd July 1998 the division captured Jayapura in West Papua (Irian Jaya) nominally Indonesian territory. Coming under II Australian Corps, the now veteran 2nd Division became the main force in the 1999 offensive into Eastern Indonesia. This offensive quickly captured the rest of West Papua, the Moluccan Islands and East Timor. The Australian forces meet little effective resistance as most of the Indonesian battle ready units, warships and combat aircraft had been destroyed the year before in Papua New Guinea. In fact many of the local communities greeted the Australians as liberators from Javanese control. 2nd Division spent the rest of 1999 and most of 2000 establishing II Corps authority across the newly occupied Indonesian territory. With the growing schism between II Corps commanding general MAJGEN Thurston and the Governor-General, Australian Theatre Commander and effective head of what is left of a central Australian government, GEN Walker, 2nd Division has declared its support to II Corps. The division is no longer responding to orders directly from Northern Command or Australian Theatre, it is only loyal to II Corps.
Subordination: II Australian Corps
Current Location: Ceram, Ambon, Morotai, Halmahera and Timor
Manpower: 7,500
Major Weapons: 10  Leopard 1, 8  OH-58D

3rd Australian Division
A pre-war reserve division the 3rd included the 4th and 12th Brigades in Melbourne, Vic and the 9th Brigade in Adelaide, SA. The division was called out on 20 December 1996 as the war in China and Germany escalated into global conflict. Deployed to the Northern Territory and North West WA the division became the primary security force of Northern Command. The GNE hardly effected the division, as all nuclear strikes on Australia were to the south of its operational area and prevailing monsoonal winds at this time were northerly. Also the low population of northern Australia meant the division was spared the heavy toll of the post GNE disease outbreaks and civil disruption. The division is still controlling the Northern Command enclaves at the vital resource extraction centres across North Western Australia.
Subordination: Northern Command
Current Location: North and North West Australia
Manpower: 10,000
Major Weapons: 10  Leopard 1, 6  OH-58D

4th Australian Division
The division was formed 26/1/96 at Victoria Barracks, Sydney with three brigades, the 16th based in Sydney, NSW, the 17th based in Brisbane, Qld and the 18th based in Newcastle, NSW. The division was filled with many ready reserve soldiers and recalled ex-servicemen, all with at least one years full time service, which enabled the division to come to a combat ready level reasonably quickly. The division took over security roles for the South Eastern corner of Australia during 1997 and was being prepared for service in the Middle East when the GNE caused considerable destruction. The division was able to avoid direct damage from the nuclear exchange but was heavily pressed in diaster relief and, at sometimes, quite brutal suppression of civil disorder. With the south east generally calm after the summer of 97/98 and with the 3rd Australian Armoured Division, 5th and 6th Australian Divisions deployed in the area, the 4th was moved by sea to PNG to reinforce II Australian Corps for the counteroffensive against the Indonesian forces. While 2nd Australian Division moved down the northern coast of PNG, 4th Division assaulted Indonesian forces on Manus Island and then prepared for the assault against Rabual. The two Australian brigades that landed at Rabual, not only faced the defending Indonesian brigade but the full fury of a volcanic eruption. The Rabual area was evacuated after 4th Division quickly offered diaster relief to the local population and most of the Indonesian forces that had surrendered after being caught between the ‘the frying-pan and the fire-place’. While 2nd Division moved into Eastern Indonesia in early 1999, 4th Division took up a rear area security task. This was no easy mission since it was responsible for the entire New Guinea Island; the world’s second largest island with the most rugged terrain in the world. 4th Division is still in control of New Guinea and is in fact the only effective authority in this region, something which II Corps exploits to the full. The division is no longer responding to orders directly from Northern Command or Australian Theatre; it is only loyal to II Corps.
Subordination: II Australian Corps
Current Location: Papua New Guinea, Irian Jaya, Far North Queensland
Manpower: 10,000
Major Weapons: 4  OH-58D

5th Australian Division
The division was formed on 25 April 1997 and was primarily made up of newly trained conscripts, though its 28th Brigade and some divisional elements comprised pre-war reserve training units. The division was tasked with security for the state of New South Wales and was intended to relieve the 3rd Australian Division in northern Australia, so that this formation could be deployed to the Middle East. The GNE and the Indonesian invasion of PNG ended these plans and the 5th Division has stayed on in NSW providing local security and disaster relief since its formation. The division was brought up to strength in early 1999 by comb-outs of surplus Navy and Air Force personnel. The division currently forms a border guard force across the ‘Newell Line’ in central NSW.
Subordination: III Australian Corps
Current Location: East NSW
Manpower: 16,000
Major Weapons: 0

6th Australian Division
The division was formed on 25 April, 1997 and was primarily made up of newly trained conscripts, with some divisional elements comprising pre-war reserve training units. The division was tasked with security for the state of Victoria and was intended to relieve the 2nd Australian Division in northern Australia and PNG, so that they could be deployed to the Middle East. The GNE and the subsequent Indonesian invasion of PNG ended these plans and the 6th Division was deployed to Queensland to secure the supply lines to II Corps in PNG. While the division was readied to deploy to PNG, the success of the Australian counter invasion meant it wasn’t required and since the required transport wasn’t available anyway the division stayed in South and Central Queensland. The division was forced to withdraw to the south east corner of Queensland due to increasing lawlessness and now forms a powerful guard force against any incursions into the controlled zone.
Subordination: III Australian Corps
Current Location: South East Queensland
Manpower: 14,000
Major Weapons: 0

The New Zealand Division
The ‘fireball’ division was formed on 10 February, 1997, comprising the 4th and 7th Brigades and was deployed to the Middle East as reinforcements to the 3rd Australian Expeditionary Force later in the year. All division elements had arrived in Saudi Arabian ports by October 1997. The division is made up of motorised and mechanised infantry, equipped with HMMWV and M113 vehicles, the divisional armoured regiment is a mix of Scorpion light tanks and M1s supplied by the US Army. The division has been under I Australian Corps since early 1998 and has partaken in all the battles for the Khuzestan Plain area of Iran.
Subordination: I Australian Corps
Current Location: Khorramshahr, Iran
Manpower: 3,500
Major Weapons: 10  M1A1

MILITARY DISTRICTS

1st Military District
A pre-war administrative command responsible for an area roughly aligned to the state of Queensland. Headquartered in Victoria Barracks, Brisbane the district took over all remaining civil authority as well as local naval and air forces in Queensland on 1/1/99. Given the regional security role several battalions of local infantry were raised across the district to provide local defence. These forces operated on a one month active/one month inactive rotation. Due to infrastructure damage and increasing lawlessness the districts area of authority has been reduced to an area south east of a line from the town of St. George to the coast at Bundaberg with a small enclave around Rockhampton and Gladstone.
Subordination: Australian Theatre
Current Location: South East Queensland
Manpower: 10,000
Major Weapons: 6  Leopard 1

2nd Military District
A pre-war administrative command responsible for an area roughly aligned to the state of New South Wales. Headquartered in Victoria Barracks, Sydney the district took over all remaining civil authority as well as local naval and air forces in NSW on 1/1/99. The district’s area of authority has been reduced to the area east of the Newell Highway in central NSW. Several inland cantonments are under military authority but beyond these areas and the periodic fire sweeps most of NSW is on its own.
Subordination: Australian Theatre
Current Location: East NSW
Manpower: 45,000
Major Weapons: 0

3rd Military District
A pre-war administrative command responsible for an area roughly aligned to the state of Victoria. Headquartered in Victoria Barracks, Melbourne the district took over all remaining civil authority as well as local naval and air forces in Victoria on 1/1/99. The district controls virtually all of the state of Victoria, except for a few isolated areas.
Subordination: Australian Theatre
Current Location: Victoria
Manpower: 40,000
Major Weapons: 0

5th Military District
A pre-war administrative command responsible for an area roughly aligned to the state of Western Australia. Headquartered in Irwin Barracks, Perth the district took over all remaining civil authority as well as local naval and air forces in Western Australia on 1/1/99. The 5th Military District has been reduced to the area between Perth and Albany in the south-west corner of WA. Also some cantonments in the north centred on the Pilbara are under the control of a brigade from the 3rd Australian Division. The district is under heavy pressure from the wild lawless elements operating out of Kalgoorlie-Boulder and is maintaining its area of control through particularly harsh martial law.
Subordination: Northern Command
Current Location: South West Western Australia
Manpower: 6,000
Major Weapons: 0

6th Military District
A pre-war administrative command responsible for an area aligned to the state of Tasmania. Headquartered at Battery Point, Hobart the district took over all remaining civil authority as well as local naval and air forces in Tasmania on 1/1/99. However after this date the district ceased responding to central authority on the Australian mainland. The district controls most of Tasmania on a collective basis with local civilian authorities and is intent on ignoring the rest of the world, beyond the odd mainland, Japanese and French trading vessel.
Subordination: None
Current Location: Tasmania
Manpower: 5,000
Major Weapons: 0

SEPARATE BRIGADES AND REGIMENTS

1st Cavalry Brigade
The brigade headquarters was formed 17/10/95 at Puckapunyal, Vic and took under command pre-war reserve armoured regiments from NSW and newly formed units. The brigade was structured and trained as an armoured reconnaissance formation on a TO&E very similar to a US Army Armoured Cavalry Regiment. Fully equipped with modern vehicles the brigade deployed to the Middle East with Headquarters I Australian Corps to act as its heavy reconnaissance and screening force. While I Corps secured Saudi ports the brigade was attached to 1st Australian Armoured Division in Iran. The brigade entered combat against Soviet mechanised forces in support of Pegasus II offensive. 1st Cavalry Brigade operated as far north as Kabir Kuh in support of 1st Armoured Division’s drive on Dezful. In 1998 the brigade patrolled the Iraqi border with frequent cross border operations to disrupt Iraqi logistic support of Soviet forces. The brigade suffered heavy casualties in the July 1999 Soviet offensive and it was temporary cut off by advancing Iraqi divisions. However remaining a fighting force behind Iraqi lines contributed to their collapse and the depleted brigade was able to link up with the rest of I Corps. After rest and refit the brigade has taken on a ‘fire brigade’ mission to reinforce threatened areas of the Khuzestan Plain.
Subordination: I Australian Corps
Current Location: Khuzestan Plain, Iran
Manpower: 800
Major Weapons: 20  Waler-AGV

2nd Cavalry Brigade
The brigade was formed 26/1/96 at Robertson Barracks, Darwin, NT as Northern Command’s reconnaissance formation. The 2nd Cavalry was never brought up to full mechanised scales with half of its squadron’s relaying on motorised transport.
Subordination: Northern Command
Current Location: Darwin, NT
Manpower: 2,500, 1,000 cavalry
Major Weapons: 14  Waler-AGV

3rd Cavalry Brigade
The brigade was raised on 12/3/99 at Puckapunyal, Vic as a fully horse mounted formation.
Subordination: III Australian Corps
Current Location: Dubbo, NSW
Manpower: 2,000 cavalry
Major Weapons: 0

3rd Infantry Brigade (Airborne)
A pre war regular brigade headquartered at Lavarack Barracks, Townsville, Qld. The 3rd Brigade was kept at a high state of readiness as Australia’s strategic reserve until April 1996 when it was deployed in a lightning strike against Bougainville separatists in PNG. The brigade combined with local forces and carried out a successful strike on the separatists and was able to re-open the contested Pangua copper mine. The brigade returned to Townsville, Qld in early 1997 and resumed its role as a regional ready reaction force. In response to the Indonesian invasion of PNG the brigade launched a successful airborne assault on Wewak, PNG. From this base the brigade was able to disrupt Indonesian lines of communication through the successful counterattack by PNG forces and the 2nd and 4th Divisions. During the successful counter invasion of eastern Indonesia in early 1999, the brigade was responsible for capturing East Timor. The brigade launched its second airborne assault on the town of Biablo from where it interdicted East and West Timor. Local counterattacks from Indonesian security forces were defeated by the brigade linking up with local anti Indonesian forces. The brigade was withdrawn to Cairns, Qld in October 1999 and replaced in East Timor by units of the 2nd Division. The brigade now serves as a reserve force for II Australian Corps and is no longer accepting orders from Northern Command or Australian Theatre.
Subordination: II Australian Corps
Current Location: Cairns, Queensland
Manpower: 1,500
Major Weapons: 10  OH-58D

The Special Air Service Regiment
The regimental headquarters of the Australian SAS was deployed to the Middle East to take operational control over several special forces sub-units.
Subordination: I Australian Corps
Current Location: Dezful, Iran
Manpower: 350
Major Weapons: 0

1st Commando Regiment

Subordination: II Australian Corps
Current Location: Port Moresby, PNG
Manpower: 250
Major Weapons: 0

7th Commando Regiment

Subordination: Australian Theatre
Current Location: Sydney, NSW
Manpower: 400
Major Weapons: 0

The Tactical Assault Group (SAS)

Subordination: Australian Theatre
Current Location: Melbourne, Vic
Manpower: 200
Major Weapons: 0

The Tasmanian Defence Brigade

Subordination: 6th Military District
Current Location: Tasmania
Manpower: 2,500, 1,000 cavalry
Major Weapons: 0

dragoon500ly

03-21-2016, 02:45 PM

This has been discussed in previous threads, the general opinion was that Australia might field a brigade for New Guinea, maybe a battalion task force for Korea and very improbable that a BTF for the Middle East would be moved. With a WWIII scenario...my own opinion is that the Aussies would move to secure oil reserves as well as block any Indonesian moves towards the Land Done Under.

RN7

03-21-2016, 03:02 PM

dragoon500ly

03-21-2016, 03:40 PM

Yes it has and I think I was one of the ones who discussed it. So do you think this this Australian ORBAT is too big or just about right?

I'd have to say way too large.

Targan

03-21-2016, 09:37 PM

aspqrz

03-21-2016, 09:54 PM

I'd have to say way too large.

Well, yes and no.

Major Equipment wise, yes, you're probably right ... unless it is produced locally, or can be produced locally, which was unlikely back then and probably close to impossible now without a major lead time.

Manpower wise, no, you're probably wrong.

With a population a quarter of what it is now (or less) Australia raised around 14 Division Equivalents in WW2, AIF and Militia. The issue then, as it would have been in TW: 2000 and would be here and now is in the Major Equipment area, mentioned above.

At a guess, I'd say those Armoured Divisions would have, at best, been Mechanised (with wheeled APCs mainly, some tracked) with, maybe, one Indpendent Armoured Brigade (1-2 Tank Regiments [Battalions] and Mech Infantry).

The Army in SWPAC would be almost entirely Leg Infantry and almost certainly Reserves, with probably a single Motorised Brigade (where relevant ... obviously not on small islands!) and in Oz itself, Leg Infantry with Motorised elements (also almost exclusively Reserves).

Note: There would be enough motor transport in Corps and Army level units to Motorise most of the Leg Infantry (Reserve) Units most of the time, at the expense of some logistics support ... that's pretty much how things were, AIUI, back then and probably still are.

The big problem would be with the Reserve units ... artillery would be in short supply, and probably any weapons heavier or more sophisticated than Mortars. Ammo production would be an issue as well (as it would be for all smaller armies).

There used to be huge reserve stocks of everything from Rifles (millions of SMLEs till, AIUI, around the mid-70's or early 80s when they were all scrapped), MGs (Vickers HMGs, ditto scrapped), Tanks (Centurions, then Leopards, most of which were literally never used) and some Artillery ... but I don't believe that is the case any more. So it would take time to either purchase (against competing producer country army demands) or ramp up to produce locally for heavier weapons ... and I don't think either TW: 2000 timeline allows enough time.

YMMV.

(Oh, as for New Zealand, their numbers seem about right, maybe a bit less than they could manage ... but they have, AIUI, an even worse problem with 'Major Equipment')

Phil McGregor

Legbreaker

03-21-2016, 10:04 PM

aspqrz

03-21-2016, 10:06 PM

There is no way that Australia would suddenly triple or quadruple the size of its army in the space of a couple of years and then send the bulk of it to the Middle East. Pure fantasy.

Yet we did more than that in both WW1 and WW2.

The issue then, as it would have been in the TW: 2000 timeline(s) (and would still be, now) is in the area of 'Major Equipment' ...

Forex, in WW2, early 1940, my Dad was (illegally, as it turned out) called up for service in a Militia Artillery Regiment. They had uniforms (late WW1 issue), no Rifles initially, except for a small cadre, and they did rifle evolutions with Broomsticks for a while. Worse, they didn't have a single piece of Artillery ... they 'trained' on painted outlines on the parade ground. When they eventually got some guns they didn't get 25 pdrs, they got something similar to 18/25 pdrs (18 pdr late WW1 tubes on a 25 pdr chassis ... but, as someone pointed out to me some time ago, they couldn't have been exactly that for a variety of technical reasons) just before his callup was actually found to have been illegal (reserved occupation at the time, small business owner) and he went back to civvie street.

Later in the war one of my Uncles served with an Artillery unit in New Guinea, and they did have Australian produced air portable 25 pdrs (basically the standard gun on a lightened chassis, designed to be broken down for easy air transport) ... but that was probably at least 2 years later.

And, believe me, if you read the history of the Militia/Citizen Military Forces, they were in worse condition in 1939 than they would have been in the Twilight (or present day) universe, yet they managed a huge buildup in 'a couple of years.'

Phil

aspqrz

03-21-2016, 10:08 PM

Agree with Targan. In the time available we'd be hard pressed to bring even existing units up to strength let alone create whole new Divisions from scratch!
Better to simply flesh out what exists, with much of the equipment drawn from obsolete stores (L1A1's, M60s, M113, etc). Only the regular units (most of 1st Division) and some parts of the reserve would have modern equipment (Leopard I, F88 Steyr AUG, MAG 58, Minimi, LAV-25).

My understanding is that there is bugger all in the way of 'obsolete stores' any more ... and probably wasn't back in the mid to late 90's either ... cost cutting and all that. Of course, I don't exactly have inside sources, so that could be wildly wrong.

Phil

Legbreaker

03-21-2016, 10:22 PM

Yes, the older SMLE's etc are pretty much gone, but there's still a fair amount of L1A1's, etc floating about. With increased production from Lithgow Small Arms, a sizeable proportion of soldiers might be issued with F88's, but you'd still find plenty of the older weapons especially in support units. My own original reserve unit was only converted to the F88 in 1994 and still used the M60 until quite a bit later.

Given WWIII really kicks off in 1996, anything that goes bang is likely to have been retained, but since the vast majority of fighting takes place a very long way from Australia, it's unlikely there'd be a general call up of personnel so early on (unlike in WWI and WWII, Australia wasn't directly involved except in Korea where I believe we'd have put about a brigade).

With Indonesia becoming a problem the regular troops in Korea are likely to have been recalled and replaced with reservists (my guess is 9 Brigade organised as a mech brigade, and reinforced by the Scorpion light tanks of New Zealand), and 1st Division sent into the tropics - the remainder of 2nd Division acting as a garrison for mainland Australia and reinforcements/training.

Louied

03-21-2016, 11:49 PM

I have to agree, way too big, however before delving into my BAOR ORBAT I gave it a go with Australia & New Zealand. I will try to find the PDF file I made but here is the rough outline. (I de-linked all the Bns/Regts and started conscription into the Reserves soon after the beginning of the the Sino-Soviet War)

1st Div-Papua New Guinea
- 3rd Bde
- 6th Bde
- 7th NZ Bde

2nd Div- Papua New Guinea
- 5th Bde
- 7th Bde
- 8th Bde

3rd Div- Defence of Australia
Far North Queensland Region
- 11th Bde
Darwin Region
- 9th Bde
Kimberley Region
- 4th Bde
Pilbara Regiion
- 13th Bde

Defence of New Zealand
- 2nd NZ Bde
- 3rd NZ Bde

Korea
- 1st Australian Mech Bde
- ANZ contribution to reformed 28th (ANZUK) Inf Bde

Middle East
- 10th Australian Mech Div
(Formed from volunteers for overseas service. Div had been requested by the U.S. in early 1997. Personnel were shipped out to The Sinai where they were equipped with U.S. AFVs etc)

The PDF file is more detailed, I'll post when I find it.

Louie

RN7

03-22-2016, 12:03 AM

Completely and utterly insane. I mean maybe given 10 years of build-up, but forming multiple new armoured and infantry divisions essentially out of nothing? In the space of a couple of years? Where would all the equipment come from?

Australia's Regular Army, even today, is pretty modest in size but reasonably well equipped and extremely well trained. A major component of Australia's on-paper Army are reserve units that are just shells with a few companies actually operating in peacetime. Australia, particularly the Australia of the mid-1990s, might seem rich and it is big geographically, but the population was only about 18 million in 1995.

There is no way that Australia would suddenly triple or quadruple the size of its army in the space of a couple of years and then send the bulk of it to the Middle East. Pure fantasy.

I'd have to totally agree.

Britain which was one of the major powers in the Twilight War could only manage to field six divisions, plus a number of brigades and regiments after full mobilisation. Australia with about one third of the population of Britain and a considerably smaller arms industry has an army close to three times the size.

The Australian Army does have a useful air mobility capability and its special forces component is quite large for the relative size of its army. But the modern Australian Army (2016) is not that much different in size to what it was in the 1990's, and is basically the equivalent of one US infantry division plus some regiments of various types. Add the reserves and you have another light infantry division which would likely be organised into a few light infantry brigades and the odd regiment. So two divisions plus some independent regiments after mobilisation at most

So if we say that Australia introduces conscription to raise an army of that size, which incidentally the US, Britain and other Western countries never did in Twilight 2000, Australia might be able to raise an army as big as this. But arming and equipping it and then sending entire divisions overseas and supporting them? I don't think so.

Legbreaker

03-22-2016, 02:26 AM

Middle East
- 10th Australian Mech Div
(Formed from volunteers for overseas service. Div had been requested by the U.S. in early 1997. Personnel were shipped out to The Sinai where they were equipped with U.S. AFVs etc)

I can't see Australia committing any troops to the middle east, not when they've already got a contingent in Korea, and a war with Indonesia (a MUCH larger military if somewhat lacking in modern equipment) right on our own doorstep.

I also can't see any form of conscription being brought in until Australia itself was under threat. Any attempt to do so before then would likely bring down the government at the very next election (if not sooner).

dragoon500ly

03-22-2016, 05:02 AM

Only reason I can see to have an Aussie presence in the Middle East is to secure oil/refinery capacity. Would it have been a brigade, doubt it, more likely a battalion-sized task force, maybe a frigate or support ship and maybe a flight/squadon from RAAF, more than that, just don't see it possible.

Louied

03-22-2016, 06:09 AM

I know I was going out on limb but the backstory I concocted was based on some IRL past Australian Defence Policy. (Up until just after Suez, Australia planned on forming a "3rd AIF" to serve in the Middle East).

-between August & October 1995 Australia began making plans to slightly increase its force posture (de-linking of Bns/Regts was put in motion). Recruitment was still on a voluntary basis, however after a long debate, conscription into the Reserves was initiated (The Defence (Reserve Forces) Act 1995. Just as in 1943 the Act regulated the area where "National Service" personnel could serve, Australia and its Territories plus north to the equator, bounded by the 110th meridian to the West and the 159th meridian to the East.)

- December 1995 28th (ANZUK) Inf Bde is reformed. U.S. & U.K. first approach Australia about providing a force for the ME (Oman had already asked the Brits for troops in late October)

- March 1996 Australia announces that an "Australian Expeditionary Force" (I also toyed with the idea of naming it "Australian Intervention Force" to get he AIF initials, any thoughts ?) would be formed from Volunteers for overseas service. Plans are for a reinforced Bde Grp, and recruiting is opened to Regular Army and Reserves (both volunteer and National Service personnel). The response is so massive that plans are revised to make it Div sized and personnel flow is regulated. (What I did, for example, was to form a "3rd/1st BN, The Royal Australian Regt" and specified one Regular and three Reserve Bns to provide volunteers to it. I did this with all of the units in the AEF.)

- June 1996 the first units begin to arrive at a newly opened U.S. training camp in the Sinai, Egypt. (Offered by the Egyptians after a massive dose of money and military aid).

Ok how does it sound so far ??

Louie

Legbreaker

03-22-2016, 06:41 AM

There's just no way Australia would send troops to the middle east, certainly not in those numbers, and certainly not with a hostile Indonesia knocking on the door. MAY send a small training unit of perhaps 100 personnel, but that's about it.
As for oil, we have a bit of untapped reserves here ourselves. With the Soviets backing Iran, etc, and of course Indonesia and our Korean obligations, a third front is just plain unthinkable.
We have approximately the same population as Greece, which has conscription, a much smaller land area, and an army of 90,000 on active duty (plus 180,000 extra recalled conscripts in time of war). Australia has 45,000 including reservists.
In WWII, the military was rapidly expanded primarily because there was nothing left to stop the Japanese. The British which had been the main ally was tied down in Europe and Africa, and the US were nowhere to be seen. Virtually everyone we had sent to Africa and the middle east were hurriedly recalled after the fall of Singapore - the door was wide open and nobody else was around to close it. Those conscripted troops we did have were extremely poorly trained and very badly equipped. It's a miracle those thrown into the fire did as well as they did (I'm thinking the 39th Battalion and their role in stopping the Japanese in New Guinea).
Come WWIII you can bet the lessons learnt from WWII would not be forgotten. Australia would not over extend itself again.

RN7

03-24-2016, 06:18 PM

AUSTRALIAN ARMY 2016

Army
Manpower: 29,000

Command

Division HQ (1st Division): Brisbane QLD
Combat Training Centre: Tully QLD
1st Signal Regiment: Enoggera QLD
39th Operational Support Battalion: Sydney NSW
2/30th Training Group: RMAH Malaysia

Manoeuvre

1st Brigade: Darwin NT
1st Armoured Regiment: Darwin NT
5th Battalion RAR: Darwin NT
7th Battalion RAR: Edinburgh SA
8/12th RAA: Darwin NT
1st Combat Engineer Regiment: Darwin NT
1st Combat Signals Regiment: Darwin NT
1st Combat Support Battalion: Darwin NT

3rd Brigade: Townsville QLD
2nd Cavalry Regiment: Townsville QLD
1st Battalion RAR: Townsville QLD
2nd Battalion RAR (Amphibious trained): Townsville QLD
3rd Battalion RAR: Townsville QLD
4th RAA: Townsville QLD
3rd Combat Engineer Regiment: Townsville QLD
3rd Combat Signals Regiment: Townsville QLD
3rd Combat Support Battalion: Townsville QLD

7th Brigade: Enoggera QLD
2/14th Light Horse Regiment: Enoggera QLD
6th Battalion RAR: Enoggera QLD
8/9th Battalion RAR: Enoggera QLD
1st RAA: Enoggera QLD
2nd Combat Engineer Regiment: Enoggera QLD
7th Combat Signals Regiment: Enoggera QLD
7th Combat Support Battalion: Enoggera QLD

16th Aviation Brigade: Enoggera QLD
1st Aviation Regiment: Darwin NT
5th Aviation Regiment: Townsville QLD
6th Aviation Regiment: Sydney NSW

6th Combat Support Brigade: Sydney NSW
1st Intelligence Battalion: Sydney NSW
6th Engineer Support Regiment: Enoggera QLD
7th Signals Regiment: Cabarlha QLD
16th Air Land Regiment: Woodside SA
19th Chief Engineer Works: Sydney NSW
20th Surveillance & Target Acquisition Regiment: Enoggera QLD

17th Combat Support Brigade: Sydney NSW
17th Signal Regiment: Sydney NSW
2nd Forces Support Battalion (Reserve): Hobart TAS
9th Forces Support Battalion: RAAF Amberley QLD
10th Forces Support Battalion: Townsville QLD
1st Close Health Battalion: Sydney NSW
2nd General Health Battalion: Enoggera QLD
3rd Health Support Battalion (Reserve): Adelaide SA
1st Military Police Battalion: Sydney NSW
1st Psychology Unit: Sydney NSW

Special Operations Command

Special Operations Command HQ: Sydney NSW

SAS Regiment: Perth WA
1st Commando Regiment (Reserve): Sydney NSW
2nd Commando Regiment: Holsworthy NSW
Special Operations Engineer Regiment: Holsworthy NSW
Special Operations Logistics Squadron: Sydney NSW
Special Operations Training Centre: Singleton NSW
Parachute Training School. Nowra NSW

Reserve Organisation
Manpower: 28,700 (including 12,500 Standby reserve)

Command

Division HQ (2nd Division): Sydney NSW

8th Signal Regiment: Sydney NSW
51st Battalion, Far North Queensland Regiment (Reserve): Cairns QLD
North-West Mobile Force (Reserve): Larrakeyah NT
The Pilbara Regiment (Reserve): Karratha WA

Manoeuvre

4th Brigade (Reserve): Melbourne VIC

4/19th Prince of Wales Light Horse Regiment: Melbourne VIC
5/6th Battalion RAR: Melbourne VIC
8/7th Battalion RAR: Ballarat VIC
2/10th Light Battery: Melbourne VIC
2nd Engineer Regiment: Melbourne VIC
108th Signals Squadron: Melbourne VIC
4th Combat Support Battalion: Melbourne VIC
Melbourne University Regiment: Melbourne VIC

5th Brigade (Reserve): Sydney NSW

1/15th Royal NSW Lancers: Parramatta NSW
1/19th Battalion, Royal NSW Regiment: Orange NSW
4/3rd Battalion, Royal NSW Regiment: Cardiff NSW
23rd Light Battery: Sydney NSW
5th Engineer Regiment: Holsworthy NSW
142nd Signal Squadron: Sydney NSW
5th Combat Support Battalion: Sydney NSW
Sydney University Regiment: Sydney NSW

8th Brigade (Reserve): Sydney NSW

12/16th Hunter River Lancers: Tamworth NSW
2/17th Battalion, Royal NSW Regiment: Sydney NSW
41st Battalion, Royal NSW Regiment: Lismore NSW
7th Light Battery: Sydney NSW
8th Engineer Regiment: Newcastle NSW
155th Signal Squadron: Sydney NSW
8th Combat Support Battalion: Sydney NSW
University of New South Wales Regiment: Sydney NSW

9th Brigade (Reserve): Adelaide SA

A Squadron. 3/9th SA Mounted Rifles: Adelaide SA
10/27th Battalion, Royal SA Regiment: Adelaide SA
12/40th Battalion, Royal TAS Regiment: Hobart TAS
6/13th Light Battery: Adelaide SA
3rd Field Squadron: Adelaide SA
144th Signal Squadron: Adelaide SA
9th Combat Support Battalion: Adelaide SA
Adelaide University Regiment: Adelaide SA

11th Brigade (Reserve): Townsville QLD

B Squadron. 3/4th Cavalry Regiment: Townsville QLD
9th Battalion, Royal QLD Regiment: Enoggera QLD
25/49th Battalion, Royal QLD Regiment: Enoggera QLD
31/42nd Battalion, Royal QLD Regiment: Townsville QLD
5/11th Light Battery: Townsville QLD
11th Engineer Regiment: Townsville QLD
141st Signal Squadron: Townsville QLD
11th Combat Support Battalion: Townsville QLD
Queensland University Regiment: Brisbane QLD

13th Brigade (Reserve): Perth WA

A Squadron. 10th Light Horse Regiment: Perth WA
11/28th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA
16th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA
3rd Light Battery: Perth WA
13th Field Squadron: Perth WA
109th Signal Squadron: Perth WA
13th Combat Support Squadron: Perth WA
Western Australia Regiment: Fremantle WA

Other Army Establishments

Army Recruitment Training Centre: Kapooka NSW
Royal Military College: Canberra ACT
Combined Arms Training Centre: Puckapunyal VIC
Land Warfare Centre: Canungra QLD
Army Logistics Training Centre: Bonegilla and Bandiana VIC
Army Aviation Training Centre: Oakley QLD

Army Equipment
MBT: 59 M1A1 (possibly up to 90 Leopard 1A3 held in storage)
AIFV: 253 (253x ASLAV-25 all variants)
APC: 431 (431x M113AS4)
MRAP: 1,192 (1,052x Bushmaster, 31x Jackal, 12x Husky, 8x MV-10, 89x HMT Extenda II)
ART: 290 (54x M777A2 155mm, 36x M198 155mm, 112x L118/119 105mm, 188x 81mm Mortars)
ARV: 45 (15x ASLAV-F, 17x ASLAV-R, 13x M88A2)
VLB: 5 (5x Biber)
AT: Javelin MANPAT and 84mm Carl Gustav
SAM: 36 (36x RBS-70 MANPAD)
RADAR: 34 (3x Giraffe, 31x LCMR)

Army Aircraft
Attack Helicopter: 22 (22x Tiger)
Heavy Transport Helicopter: 11 (4x CH-57D, 7x CH-47F Chinooks)
Medium Transport Helicopter: 67 (33x NH-90, 34x S-70A Black Hawk) (* 8x NH-90 on order)
Light Helicopter: 30 (29x Bell OH-58 Kiowa, 1x EC-135) (* 14x EC-135 on order)
UAV: 10 (10x RQ-7B Shadow 200)

Abbreviations
ACT: Australian Capital Territory
NSW: New South Wales
NT: Northern Territory
QLD: Queensland
RAAF: Royal Australian Air Force
RAN: Royal Australian Navy
RAR: Royal Australian Regiment
RAA: Royal Australian Artillery
SA: South Australia
SAS: Special Air Service Regiment
TAS: Tasmania
VIC: Victoria
WA: Western Australia

Legbreaker

03-24-2016, 08:52 PM

8th Brigade (Reserve): Sydney NSW

4th Battalion, Royal NSW Regiment: Lismore NSW

You should alter that to 41st Battalion. Probably just a typo I'm guessing.
It's also worth noting those locations are the HQ elements. Reserve units as a whole are usually spread over areas hundreds of miles across with companies, even individual platoons located in separate towns.

RN7

03-24-2016, 09:11 PM

You should alter that to 41st Battalion. Probably just a typo I'm guessing.
It's also worth noting those locations are the HQ elements. Reserve units as a whole are usually spread over areas hundreds of miles across with companies, even individual platoons located in separate towns.

Thanks I missed that. The HQ's and most of the elements of the reserve brigades seem to be located within the suburbs, or near, major Australian cities. Tried to look for more geographical spatiality but everything seems to becoming more centralised, particularly in the populous South-East and in Western Australia. Maybe someone has other sources. Would make sense for mobilisation purposes to have forces closer together.

So what we have hear is the basis of three divisions organisationally on full mobilisation in 2016; one infantry and two reserve light infantry divisions, although the light infantry divisions would be more or less truly light infantry.

Legbreaker

03-24-2016, 10:01 PM

mpipes

03-24-2016, 10:18 PM

RN7

03-24-2016, 10:25 PM

Australia Reserve units are not in any shape or form close to combat ready. Yes, there are individuals who may be, but 95% of each unit needs a good 3 months (minimum) additional training.
Added to that most reserve units are staffed at only skeleton levels - the 41st for example (my original unit) could barely scrape together a company plus minimal support elements when it came to the annual exercise, and even then we were usually still operating with about 70-80% strength.
To bring these units up to full manpower will take time, and then more time to train the reinforcements. Mobilisation speed is not exactly a priority in that sort of situation...

What would happen is the unit as a whole would be called up to full time service, a process which would take a few days. The unit would then move to a dedicated training establishment such as the Infantry centre at Singleton just outside Newcastle in NSW. There they would absorb reinforcements and conduct intensive training for several months. Finally it's likely to be sent on a large scale exercise in terrain similar to that where they are expected to deploy, before at last being declared combat ready.

Note that the training establishments do not currently have the facilities to cater for large scale mobilisation of troops with Singleton as an example really only capable of handling about two battalions at a time with a sizeable proportion of the troops housed in tents when not out on the range. The facilities that do exist beyond normal peace time requirements consist mostly of buildings from WWII and Vietnam (ie riddled with asbestos).

And I would agree with what you said. But I did say the capability to raise three divisions does exist in theory organisationally on full mobilisation, not realistically.

And I wouldn't expect that situation to change any time soon as Australia is just to remote for any potential major power to threaten its borders, excluding strategic nuclear weapons. Even Indonesia lacks the logistical resources to seriously invade and hold any Australian territory. And any move by the Indonesians would be detected and eliminated by the RAAF and RAN before it gets any where near the Australian mainland.

For Australia to fully mobilise three divisions (and that's organisationally only), the Australian government would have to seriously plan to use Australian troops abroad in some expeditionary capacity and to take steps to logistically plan such a mobilisation in advance. Or some major threat to Australia and its regional interests would have to emerge.

Legbreaker

03-24-2016, 11:58 PM

Yes, it would likely take years to fully mobilise and have a reasonably high percentage of combat ready units.
As for equipment, we've probably got enough small arms (rifles and machineguns) to do the job already, even if many reinforcements would be armed with older equipment. Heavier weapons (40mm grenade launchers and up) are another matter. That was the case in the 41st anyway.
Technically every officer and machinegunner (plus a few others) were supposed to be issued with a pistol as well as their main weapon, but the armouries of the whole battalion had a grand total of just 7 of them... I don't think they ever even saw the light of day.
On the other hand BHQ armoury still contained at least one .55 Boys AT rifle, and my own Company armoury had two .303 Brens, along with three Martini Henry rifles left over from about 150 years before! The Brens might have seen service again if the shit really hit the fan, but the rifles? :o

RN7

03-25-2016, 12:48 AM

I think everyone is being far too pessimistic and conservative on what FULL mobilization of any country would look like. In the US Civil War, the Confederates essentially built a competent field army from scratch in six months. The US raised about 50 divisions in the first two years of WWII, and Russia was churning out a division in about 12 weeks in 1940-1941 and the Germans a division in roughly 8 weeks in 1944. In short, when you have to, you can churn out a division in just weeks; it may not be the best trained but all they really need to know is how to shoot and maneuver and men can be taught that in just weeks if need be.

If your just trying to get leg infantry, you can essentially build 12 divisions from 200K personnel in about 18 months easily as well as a good chunk of the vehicles to move them. That is from recruitment to a trained and functional division. A trained Airborne division takes about two years and a commando the same period of time. As for training facilities, well that's where the good old fashion tent comes in. After all, the training camps the US Marines established in New Zealand in WWII consisted of hundreds of tents.

For Australia and New Zealand the limiting factor is equipment. A draft will get the manpower fairly quickly. In 1990, Australia had a population of 17 million. A mobilization and draft to provide say 250,000 recruits to raise 15-20 divisions would hardly make a dent in the overall population. Additionally, every army in 1990 had mountains of equipment just waiting for an emergency. The AUG is far from a complicated weapon and its largely plastic components can be churned out by injection molding very rapidly and in great quantities. Furthermore with a major war going on in their backyard, New Zealand and Australia would have started mobilizing in 1995 almost as soon as the Soviets crossed the border into China with over a year of time to get a few divisions operational before the war started in earnest. Same for the US, England, and the rest of Europe. In my take on the situation, you had almost a full corps of Australian and New Zealand troops in Europe, at least two divisions in each of the middle East and China. Another 2-3 divisions available to deploy into Indonesian and/or the Philippines, and at least another two to keep at home.

To raise an army that size you would need to introduce conscription (national service). The last time Australia introduced national service was during the Vietnam War (as did America) ending in 1972. Conscription during the Second World War was necessary and even popular as Australia (like America) was under threat by a foreign powers. But it certainly wasn't necessary or popular during the Vietnam War were many if not most people objected to the conscription of young men to fight in a war overseas which was far from vital to the national security of Australia. And even during the Vietnam War Australia did not introduce universal conscription, but a lottery based on birth dates of 20 year old males. During the timeline of the Twilight War I don't think any Western government brought in conscription, even countries with bigger defence priorities than Australia. I don't think any Australian government would ever seriously consider doing it again as it would be political suicide, unless of course Australia was under direct attack.

Also how do you arm an army that size? Australia now has only one small arms factory at Lithgow NSW, now owned by French company Thales Group.

RN7

03-25-2016, 01:47 AM

Also.

If Australia brought in conscription to raise an army of 200,000 and also built a few small arms factories to produce enough rifles and ammunition (barely) to arm it, what about everything else such an army would need.

The only divisions that Australia could raise would be light infantry divisions, and I emphasize the world light. Warfare in the Twilight War as it is today is a lot different to what it was in the Second World War. Highly mechanised and heavily armed armies and the threat from airpower. The casualty rates of Australian divisions would be horrendous.

Where will they get the machineguns, grenade launchers, mortars, anti-tank missiles, and the munitions for them? What about armoured vehicles and artillery? The Americans might be able to supply some equipment, but their priorities will be on supporting US forces and there are many other US allies who will also be looking for support. Although Australia is a developed country its industrial focus is on mineral and energy extraction and refining, not engineering and precision industries or the mass production of transport equipment. Australia does not have the industrial capacity to arm and support an army of 200,000 troops by itself without a major investment and expansion of its arms and related industries.

Also what about logistics. Even today with more capable military transport aircraft and sea logistics than existed 20 years ago, Australia could barely transport and support one brigade overseas.

Legbreaker

03-25-2016, 02:48 AM

Australia does have the capacity to equip a 200,000 strong army, however it's unlikely we could do it with modern equipment. WWII level technology, absolutely, Vietnam era, perhaps. The problem is more with the advances in armour and weaponry - we know how, but can only produce on a small scale (upgrading existing equipment such as the M1 for example). Large scale means going back to simpler processes.

Now that may be well and good for fighting a low tech opponent such as Indonesia, but add in the necessity of conscription and you can bet the population will be very upset - bad enough you take our sons, but to give them obsolete equipment too!? :mad:

Targan

03-25-2016, 11:18 PM

13th Brigade (Reserve): Perth WA

A Squadron. 10th Light Horse Regiment: Perth WA
1/28th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA
16th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA
3rd Light Battery: Perth WA
13th Field Squadron: Perth WA
109th Signal Squadron: Perth WA
13th Combat Support Squadron: Perth WA

Typo. "1/28th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA" should read 11/28th Battalion. That's my old unit.

RN7

03-26-2016, 12:18 AM

Typo. "1/28th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA" should read 11/28th Battalion. That's my old unit.

Righto Targan thanks. Do you incidentally think there is room for the expansion of the Australian Army or not?

CDAT

03-26-2016, 01:12 AM

If I am reading it correctly the original posting had the Australia military that today is 12+ (counting the reserves) brigades at least on paper, and making it in to 11+ Divisions.

I am not (and have never had the privilege of even visiting) from Australia, but looking at this. Here is my thoughts on it.

Going with the basic "history" that the game starts about five years after the first incident in 1995 (war between Russia and China). This gives us a hard time of no more than five years. Some of NATO gets involved in 1996-97 but not all (France stays neutral). Thanksgiving 1997 Nuclear balloon goes up. War goes on, with final push before you are on your own is in 2000.

With that history What I see is that you really have about a year or two to build up. In 1995 I do not see any call up of reserves, maybe an increased footing for the active units. As we roll into 1996 and the war is looking more and more like it is going to happen I could see they taking a good look at what each country has, and needs. Maybe even increasing production a bit (not a lot as they are trying to stay out). Once war starts then yes I can see the production increasing. However as others have pointed out Australia does not have the production capability, and even if they started building it in 1996, I do not think it would be up and running by time the nukes went. Would the US, Germany, and/or England have the extra production capability to produce stuff for Australia at the same time they are ramping up themselves? I do not think so, there are lots of fluff about this American guard unit or that one still having their old tanks, if they had the production to sell extra they would have provided it to there units. So if we go with that Australia can not produce the heavy equipment needed, and there allies can not provide what is needed in the numbers needed then why raise the troops if you can not equip them.

So summing up my thoughts, could Australia raise a 11+ Division army? Yes, if they wanted to. Could they do it in the time provided for in the game time line? Maybe, if they wanted only light infantry, No if they wanted the heavy troops listed in the post. As they could not equip them. I have seen people talk about how this or that was done in WWII, there are some big differences. Speaking for the US here in WWII most of the auto makers could make most of the military vehicles needed, today we have I believe one, say that again one manufacturer who can make tanks. Aircraft are not much better, were as WWII you could have lost of shops make them. Training, yes some of the training would be cut out, but it still takes longer to train a troop today then it did back then. Back in WWII even most of the "city" folk still has some understanding of firearms, to day some of them (I dare say a lot of them) have no clue other than what TV show them. Well I think I have gone on long enough so I will end it here.

RN7

03-26-2016, 01:52 AM

Speaking for the US here in WWII most of the auto makers could make most of the military vehicles needed, today we have I believe one, say that again one manufacturer who can make tanks. Aircraft are not much better, were as WWII you could have lost of shops make them.

This I think was touched upon here. http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=4627

Currently the US has only one tank factory in Lima, Ohio. I believe that America has not built a new tank from scratch since the mid-1990's. The Abram's are all now taken in and rebuilt or re-molded when needed. Some new parts are still produced and fitted but that is all that is being built at the moment.

Legbreaker

03-26-2016, 02:13 AM

If I am reading it correctly the original posting had the Australia military that today is 12+ (counting the reserves) brigades at least on paper, and making it in to 11+ Divisions.

Completely wrong. We have 2 Divisions. EXTREMELY unlikely we could make a third even if we really, REALLY HAD to.

3687

Edit: The first post is exceptionally unrealistic and totally unachievable.

mpipes

03-26-2016, 10:28 AM

You are VASTLY underestimating what can be done by nations when they put their efforts toward raising an army.

Some quick historical parallels......

Confederate States of America

Population: ~5,500,000 (Caucasian)

Army Size: 1/1861 = 0
12/1861 = ~500,000

England WWII

Population: 46,000,000

Army Size: 1/1939 = Regulars 227,000/TA 204,000
5/1940 = 1,650,000
April 1940 BEF strength 400,000

Australia WWII

Population: 7,039,000

Army Size: 9/1939 = 80,000
8/1942 = 479,000 11 Divisions

Russia: 6/41 303 Divisions
8/41 401 Division (with 41 destroyed)
Russia was in effect shitting divisions in the first months of the war; about 5,000,000 men by December if memory serves me correct.

What you can see from these quick examples is that manpower is hardly ever the issue in effect for rapidly raising a force. A rough rule of thumb; you can effectively double the size of your military within six months from the decision to mobilize. Now that does not mean that you will have units every bit as good as those that existed pre-mobilization, but it does mean you can get an adequately trained and effective combat force into service within 6 months. US Cold War planning assumed about six months to fully mobilize from about 15 divisions to 35 divisions within six months. Desert Storm was the first real test, as it tried to mobilize three National Guard brigades within 60 days. That attempt did not work out as planned, as these units still required considerable training to get them up to active duty standards. However, it was conceded in post-war studies that the three brigades could have deployed and been effective at the 60 day point; just not fully trained to active duty standards. It was also conceded that at least one of the units was indeed fully qualified, but somewhat arbitrary training rule said it was not, and that if the decision had been to go ahead and deploy, training deficiencies could have been addressed in country after deployment and the units rated as fully ready by the start of the war.

In any event, your main limitation is equipment. BUT that is not really an issue for small arms, as doubling production for say the M-16 or the AUG can be accomplished in a few weeks. Australia in 1995 had thousands of L1A1s, Sterlings, Stens, and Brens in storage. And then there are wartime production plans. Normal production for most arms manufacturers are basically one 7-5/M-F shifts. Wartime, it goes to 3-shifts 24/7/365. Just look at WWII production in the US and UK at what can be accomplished. You had workers all but being dragged off the streets and stuck on a production line. In Russia, that was literally happening. Its also interesting to note that in 1990, the US expected to reactivate B-1B production within six months of a decision to do so. Wartime production plans for F-16s hit over 600/yr within one year. M-1 production was to be doubled as well.

The hallmark of mobilization for war is to not start off thinking about what you can't do and concentrate on doing what you must do. The US built the atomic bomb in three years. It built an army of 8,000,000 in less than four years. Australia itself went from an army of 80,000 in 1939 to 479,000 in three years. Its all a matter of national will.

For the record, I was a logistic officer in the Air Force.

Legbreaker

03-26-2016, 11:06 AM

Manpower can possibly be scraped together. The problems are equipment, politics, and finance.

The best Australia could do by itself is 1950-60's vehicles and heavy weapons, except on a small scale. What's the point in having half a million troops if virtually ANY opponent is using far superior equipment?

Politics is another matter. Australians simply will not stand for wide scale conscription any more. It was tough enough in WWI and WWII - by Vietnam the tide had well and truly turned against forced military service, so any recruits would have to be volunteers. To conscript civilians would almost certainly result in the downfall of the government which tried to implement it.

Then there's finance. Volunteers don't come cheaply - patriotism only goes so far. Equipment (what little of it which may be available) will fetch premium prices, prices Australia simply cannot afford. Even raw materials will go up in price putting them out of the reach of many smaller nations.

Australia is not America. We only have about 20 million people in total and not enough heavy industry to cover all our domestic needs. Most of our cars, trucks, heavy equipment is imported. We do not have the industrial base to enable us to ramp up production to cover wartime requirements. We do not have large scale heavy industries to switch from making consumer goods to tanks and aircraft. We DO have the capability to upgrade, modify and maintain what we have, and some limited small scale production.

WWII is commonly pointed at as an example of what can be done to rapidly build up forces, but that's a very misleading example to use for modern warfare. The technology of today, or even 20 years ago (the time of T2K) is much more advanced than the 1940's. It required much lower technical skills and specialised equipment to produce.

Australia did have a large military, but it was so large we simply could not support it. Australia was the only nation (to my knowledge) to actually reduce the size of it's forces while the war still raged - we had no choice if we wanted to eat and have enough manpower to produce and transport the materials our soldiers needed.

Rainbow Six

03-26-2016, 12:26 PM

A mobilization and draft to provide say 250,000 recruits to raise 15-20 divisions would hardly make a dent in the overall population.

Have you given any thought as to who would a) train and b) provide a leadership cadre (primarily junior officers / NCO's) for these quarter of a million conscripts?

Same for the US, England, and the rest of Europe.
You mean the United Kingdom, of which England is just one constituent part, not the only constituent part. It is a source of annoyance to some of us who live in parts of the UK other than England when England is used to refer to the whole country.

In case my view isn't clear, I think the Australian orbat in the opening past is far too big. I seem to recall a similar conversation taking place about the British Army some years ago and the same arguments applied.

RN7

03-26-2016, 01:27 PM

Australia is not America.

This is the key statement here.

On closer inspection Australia has six military factories (army related only)

Bandiana VIC (Military Vehicle Maintenance)
Benalla VIC (Munitions)
Bendigo VIC (Military Vehicle Production)
Lithgow NSW (Small Arms: Steyr AUG rifle and FN Minimi SAW only)
Mulwala NSW (Munitions)
Wingfield SA (Military Vehicle Production)

They are all foreign owned by Thales Group (France) and BAE Systems (Britain)

In regards to automobile production there are seven auto and two engine plants in Australia.

Automobile Plants
Elizabeth SA (GM-Holden)
Geelong VIC (Ford)
Melbourne VIC (Ford)
Melbourne VIC (Iveco)
Melbourne VIC (Paccar-Kenworth)
Melbourne VIC (Toyota)
Waco QLD (Volvo-Mack)
Engine Plants
Melbourne VIC (GM-Holden)
Melbourne VIC (Toyota)

Incidentally they are also foreign owned (American, Italian, Japanese and Swedish) and the Ford, GM-Holden and Toyota plants are all due to close 2016/17. This will leave Australia with just three truck factories after 2017.

mpipes

03-26-2016, 03:53 PM

Have you given any thought as to who would a) train and b) provide a leadership cadre (primarily junior officers / NCO's) for these quarter of a million conscripts?

You mean the United Kingdom, of which England is just one constituent part, not the only constituent part. It is a source of annoyance to some of us who live in parts of the UK other than England when England is used to refer to the whole country.

In case my view isn't clear, I think the Australian orbat in the opening past is far too big. I seem to recall a similar conversation taking place about the British Army some years ago and the same arguments applied.

Same as in WWII, the top 5% and oldest of the graduating group stays behind to train the next. Most of the US pilot trainers in WWII were the top students from the previous batch. In Russia, for example, new trainee tank drivers were mated up with an experienced ones. After a week, you had a new trained tank driver going into battle.

You don't worry about the small stuff; you churn out guys with basic skills and that is good enough. As I said, Germany found it could churn out an infantry division in about 8 weeks in 1944. That division was not as well trained as a 1940 division, but they could man defensive position and effectively engage a veteran Allied division.

You are fundamentally missing the point. When a nation has to churn out an army, generally it rises to the occasion and does so. They don't care if he can fold his underwear the army way, they care if he can shoot his gun and keep it functioning. Why do you think the Russian's came up with the idiot-proof AK-47? So they did not have to spend two weeks training him how to shoot it and maintain it. True, todays armies are more technical, but in the end, all they really need to know is how to shoot. Its not a particularly elegant way to run a war, but the reality in a T2k world is to churn out replacements. You eliminate as much of the training syllabus as you can and get that warm body into the replacement pool.

Australia would be no different in 1990. Want oil? You damn well better get troops to the middle East to keep it flowing. China and Russia going at it, you better get troops to Korea and Hong Kong to hopefully keep the war contained.

Australia's war plans had troops deploying for a Pacific war involving China or the USSR in 1990. That is simply reality (I know cause I was in on some of the transportation plans for USAF C-141s). You can find unclassified info if you look hard enough, but I can tell you that a 10 division contribution from ANZAC was not an unrealistic expectation. The UK mobilization plans were actually larger than what was listed in the game as were Germany's. Germany expected to have well over 20 divisions at the six month point and I do know that the UK was expected to double the size of the army as well. Remember, for all of NATO, everyone discharged/retired within the previous seven years was being recalled to active duty. That generally gives you a 50% increase in the size of your military right there....fully trained too. Or more accurately in many cases, your training contingent.

Rainbow Six

03-26-2016, 04:13 PM

You are fundamentally missing the point.

Thanks for that, but I think I'll decide whether I'm missing the point or not.

I'm done with this thread - I can think of better ways to spend a Saturday night than being lectured to.

RN7

03-26-2016, 05:07 PM

You are fundamentally missing the point. When a nation has to churn out an army, generally it rises to the occasion and does so.

And what will Australia be arming its army with? Boomerangs!

I think you have missed the point. Australia will have to introduce conscription to raise an army of the size you are proposing. And as difficult as it would be for Australia to raise, train, staff, officer and support and army of that size, the main issue is not raising the manpower but arming it.

Australia has one small arms factory and two munitions factories (one for bullets and one for munitions). This is enough for sustaining the current regular army and maybe equipping another division, but it is way to limited to arm an army of 10 or more divisions. And that is just bullets and rifles, what about machine guns, grenades, mortars, anti-tank weapons etc .

Also what about armoured vehicles and artillery. Australia has two factories that build light armoured vehicles at a very low production level. It could maybe build some trucks and jeeps/Landrovers as well, but no mass production of armoured vehicles and certainly no artillery or tanks or heavy munitions.

Australia's war plans had troops deploying for a Pacific war involving China or the USSR in 1990. That is simply reality (I know cause I was in on some of the transportation plans for USAF C-141s). You can find unclassified info if you look hard enough, but I can tell you that a 10 division contribution from ANZAC was not an unrealistic expectation. The UK mobilization plans were actually larger than what was listed in the game as were Germany's. Germany expected to have well over 20 divisions at the six month point and I do know that the UK was expected to double the size of the army as well. Remember, for all of NATO, everyone discharged/retired within the previous seven years was being recalled to active duty. That generally gives you a 50%increase in the size of your military right there....fully trained too.

Just where did you get your figures from? According to you Australia had plans to raise 10 divisions (with New Zealand). Yet Germany which has about four times the population and a vastly larger heavy industrial and engineering base was expected to only have just over 20 divisions. On the basis of your figures Germany should be knocking out 40 divisions.

Incidentally in T2K the German Army has more than 20 divisions after German Reunification in 1996

12 West German (6x Armour, 4x Mechanised, 1x Airborne, 1x Mountain). 6 East German (2x Armour, 4x Mechanised). After mobilisation add another 1 mechanised division in 1996. Another 2 mechanised division and 1 infantry division in 1997, and 6 infantry divisions by 2000 plus possibly 2 Austrian mountain divisions. And there would be other independent regiments and battalions as well

In T2K the UK did practically double the size of its army including independent brigades and regiments, and its still smaller than your ANZAC army.

Also what about Australian logistics. Could you tell me how Australia could transport and supply multiple divisions overseas with its current logistical resources?

Louied

03-27-2016, 09:10 AM

mpipes
I am very interested in those unclassified war plans you mentioned, can you PM me.

I think we may all be missing something here.......
While I agree that the size of the Army in the first post is completely unrealistic based upon my research (check Library Thing under my user name Louied, I have tagged all the books "Australian Army" or "New Zealand Army". Plus I urge anyone interested in the manpower subject to read this book, The Commonwealth Armies: Manpower and Organisation in Two World Wars (War, Armed Forces and Society).
It's a bit pricey but well worth it !

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0719025958/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr0_1?qid=1459085912&sr=8-1-fkmr0&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=The+Commonwealth+Armies%3A+Manpower+and+O rganisation+in+Two+World+Wars+%28War%2C+Armed+Forc es+and+Society

Getting back, we have a Major Theatre War starting in August 1995 (practically in Australia's backyard). Besides the Soviet Union, I would bet that Mongolia (practically an SSR at the time), Vietnam (China's nemesis), and possibly India (free Tibet anyone) would be actively supporting the Soviets. On the other hand we have the U.S. supplying arms to keep China in the war (with ramped up production, ditto most of NATO looking to get a hold of Chinese cash/credit). Add that Indonesian (even tacit) support for the Soviets is making everyone (Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, PNG, etc.....i.e. All countries with mutual Defence treaties with Australia) very concerned.
Now given all that I took a gamble that Australia would start peacetime National Service in this climate (strictly into the Reserves and limited to a specific geographic area). I agree with Leg, universal conscription would probably be a non starter, but maybe just maybe if it was presented as a "Defence of Australia Act", I believe there is a chance.

As for equipment, I believe Australia flogged away all its Centurions by the late 1980's, however we are looking at convoys from the U.S. Bringing war material (tanks, trucks, munitions, etc) to China from late 1995 to late 1996. I believe there is no reason why some of this equipment couldn't go to Australia, even just enough to establish a training base.

And yes I know the controversies involved in the sending of the 2nd AIF to the ME in WW2 and then the mad scramble to bring them back after Japan enters the war. But history has a strange way of repeating itself...... IIRC Indonesia didn't make a move until 1997. I structured the 3rd AIF/10th Div going to the ME late 1996/early 1997, well before Indonesia enters the conflict. Could a U.S. Promise to "bomb Jakarta back to the Stone Age" if they make a move influenced Australian policy ?!?

So having Australia having four Divs/twelve Bdes (with one Div & one Bde equipped with U.S. Material. While the others make do with Leo 1, M113s, etc)
IMHO is very doable.

Legbreaker

03-27-2016, 09:41 AM

So having Australia having four Divs/twelve Bdes (with one Div & one Bde equipped with U.S. Material. While the others make do with Leo 1, M113s, etc)
IMHO is very doable.

Still cannot buy that. The US as we know rapidly increases it's own military in T2K with units created from 1997 no more than light infantry. Yes they were sending equipment to China early on, but come their own entry into the European, Middle Eastern AND Korean fronts in late 1996, they're hard pressed to supply their own existing units with replacement vehicles and weapon systems, despite their much greater industrial base. There's further evidence of this in the various books where we see non-standard vehicles being requisitioned and assigned to US units - the Cadillac Gage tanks for example.

In that situation they're not about to send anything anywhere, nor are they going to risk starting yet another front in South East Asia by making threats against Indonesia.

No, Australia (and New Zealand) must stand alone. There is nobody available to help, and no supplies coming from elsewhere. Sure Australia has treaties with various nations, but just how much stock can you put in them when those allies are already stretched to breaking point?

CDAT

03-27-2016, 03:10 PM

Raellus

03-27-2016, 06:03 PM

U.S. war production in the Twilight War is not going to be anywhere near where it was in 1943-'45. Too much of its industrial base had gone to seed in the 1970s and '80s as the U.S. looked to East Asia to produce relatively low-cost manufactured goods.

It the v1.0 timeline, the U.S. was struggling just to equip its own rapidly expanding military. I suspect this would be even more the case in the v2 timeline. I just don't see the U.S. being able to supply its allies with significant quantities of heavy weapons after its own entry, and supplying China would be the priority up until that point.

That's my take on things, but there's nothing wrong with customizing the T2KU to suit your own sensibilities.

Targan

03-27-2016, 09:35 PM

You can find unclassified info if you look hard enough, but I can tell you that a 10 division contribution from ANZAC was not an unrealistic expectation.

Sorry man, but at the risk of causing offence, you're talking complete rubbish. I'm the kind of guy that is happy to learn new things though. Show me some of this unclassified info and prove me wrong and honestly, I'll give you a sincere apology and be happy to have been schooled on it. Until then, a 10 division contribution in the space of a year or two during the 1990s? I say again, utter fantasy.

RN7

03-27-2016, 11:19 PM

Turning back the clock about 25 years to about 1990 and the Australian Army actually had plans to raise 3 divisions on mobilisation: one regular army and two reserve. But they were organisational divisions and not real divisions. The Australian Army was pretty much the same size then as it is now excluding the odd regiments or so. Today it is better armed, with a better airmobile and special forces capability.

Australian Army 1990

Regular
One divisional HQ
One mechanised brigade (one armoured battalion, one mechanised battalion, one para-infantry battalion)
One infantry brigade (two infantry battalions)
One infantry brigade (two infantry battalions)
One reconnaissance regiment
One APC regiment
One special forces regiment
Three artillery regiments (one medium, two light)
One air defence regiment
One engineer regiment
Two aviation regiments

Reserve
Two divisional HQ
Seven brigade HQ
Two reconnaissance regiments
One APC regiment
Two APC squadrons
Fifteen infantry battalions
One Commando battalion
Five artillery regiments (one medium, four light)
One artillery battery (light)
Four engineer regiments
Three regional surveillance units

New Zealand Army 1990

Regular
Two infantry battalions (one ranger company)
One light armoured squadron
One artillery battery (light)
One special forces squadron

Reserve
Six infantry battalions
Five artillery battery (one medium, four light)
Two armoured squadrons (one APC, one light reconnaissance)

So organisationally we have roughly four ANZAC divisions, but three will be basically light infantry and nothing really more. Could Australia's allies supply some heavy weapons and vehicles to pad this force out? Yes in small quantities, but only from the US as with the war raging in Europe and the Middle East the UK and Germany etc will be in no shape to supply Australia. Between 1996 and the nuclear war from the end of 1997 the US could supply equipment if Australia is willing to pay for it in dollars. A couple of light artillery battalions, APC's and a battalion worth of tanks plus infantry support weapons. But that would be it. So maybe we could see an ANZAC Corps organised into four divisions, but in reality just a bunch of brigades spread across Australia and New Zealand. Maybe it would include a mechanised brigade size expeditionary force for Korea or the Middle East, and another light infantry brigade for New Guinea and the Pacific etc. But ten fully armed divisions? Nope

Louied

05-22-2018, 03:31 PM

Sorry for this two year old thread resurrection but just read this book.....
Anzac Cove to Afghanistan: The History of the 3rd Brigade

Apparently there was an ORBAT Review in 1979 that stated that the Australian Army needed to maintain a mobilization base to raise the following for the defense of Australia:

Two Corps
One Armoured Div
One Mechanized Div
Three Infantry Div

Just food for thought as I don’t know how long this was carried on in the 1980’s

Raellus

05-22-2018, 04:23 PM

I put a reconstituted 28th ANZUK brigade in my Korean Peninsula Sourcebook, as a shout-out to the board's Aussie contingent.

StainlessSteelCynic

05-22-2018, 08:18 PM

I know this is a relatively minor issue but I think it's worth pointing out that whoever created the orbat in the original post was not using proper information.
Regardless of the right or wrong of the orbat, some units in it are labelled differently to what they are in real life and some are obvious extrapolations of the real world army.

For example, 2nd Cav is listed as a reconnaissance unit in the orbat. In real life it is a mech infantry transport unit - a vastly different role.
The major reconnaissance unit of that time on the east coast (where 2nd Cav is located) is not even mentioned, the 1st/15th Royal New South Wales Lancers (my original unit) and neither is the associated Armoured Recce Troop, the Hunter River Lancers.

At that time, 1st/15th was a regimental sized unit with two Squadrons of Medium and Light Reconnaissance Vehicles. 1st/15th also had its own M106 mortar vehicles plus a medium truck transport section and a RAEME support section (with M113 Fitter's vehicles). The 1st/15th ommission is significant because it was the single largest recce unit (armoured or unarmoured) on the east coast during that time period.

Another example: we have never had any self-propelled artillery in that time period and despite discussions about it, there was never any decision on what SPG to purchase. The favourite for some time was the M109 in one of its later versions but as mentioned, nothing was ever finalized.

The author has decoupled some units to make individual regiments, for example in the 13th Brigade there are the 11th Battalion and the 28th Battalion, which Targan pointed out somewhere earlier are one unit, the 11/28 Battalion.
-- In Australian practice, the nomenclature 11/28 indicates the 11th and the 28th, not the 11th unit of the 28th as in US practice. Units tend to be coupled together to preserve the history of both units, so rather than decommission one or the other, the two are amalgamated --

Now it is certainly the case that should that Battalion ever get large enough then the two would be separated to form their respective units so that in itself is not a fault of the orbat. However, making all those units mechanized is, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread by my fellow Australians, incredibly unlikely given the lack of funds to actually buy all the vehicles that would be necessary to make an Infantry Brigade into a Mechanized Infantry Brigade, let alone the dozen or so listed in the orbat.

As an aside, Australia had experimented with mounting M40 106mm Recoilless Rifles on M113 APCs to be used for support of the infantry once deployed. This was during the time of the Vietnam War but the information was still floating around in the 1980s when I was in the 1st/15th.

1st/15th also had the only fully operational Centurion tank in Australia (still does as far as I am aware, it's still used in parades) as part of its historic vehicle collection - the unit had operated the Centurion Mk3 during the 1960s before its role was changed to a Cavalry Regiment in the 1970s.