Ammo stockpiles

[aspqrz]

An email from a correspondent of mine regarding a particularly silly apocalypse proposal thread on Reddit got me thinking about something that had sort of been kicking around in the back of my head for a long while ...

Assuming something like a 'Walking Dead' outbreak which largely overwhelms society before it can work out a solution, how much ammo is actually on hand at any given time (I'm mainly talking small arms ammo, not large caliber stuff) in military stockpiles?

I mean, a lot of Zombie or similar post- apocalypse fiction (not all of it, but a heck of a lot) seems to assume an almost unlimited supply ...

Remembering back to the first episode of TWD, when Rick wakes up and travels through the town seeing the overrun defensive positions etc. Or the last episode of the first season when they get to the CDC and find the army positions outside overrun because they ran out of ammo ...

Obviously, at some point, the ability to manufacture ammo breaks down in the face of the disaster ... but how much ammo would be on hand?

The best figure I have been able to come up with is the assumption that NATO (mainly the US) may have had 90 days stockpiles, and more (maybe another 90 days) in the Continental US ... but how long would it last against an enemy who can only be put down permanently by a headshot?

Anyone have any idea what sort of stocks of small arms ammo were held? Are now held?

(Yes, I know Zombie apocalypses are pretty close to being the least credible apocalypse scenarios out there ... but the question of how much ammo there is is ... interesting ...)

Phil

[aspqrz]

There's a line that comes to mind from H Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising' where the commander of the Terran forces comments to the effect that 'Junior Officers think ammo comes down like manna from heaven when they pray for it over the radio to higher command ...'

There's only three things important in war ... logistics, logistics and logistics.

Phil

[Legbreaker]

Z Nation is another show where they seem perpetually out, or close to out of ammo. It's quiet common for them to have to pool their resources and find they've got three bullets, two paper clips and a winning smile left and little else. Mind you the show proper starts about three years after Z day. Food is often also in critically short supply with one episode almost seeing them die of starvation and thirst.

I can't speak much about overall stocks, but I know my original reserve infantry battalion (Australian) was allocated something like 10,000 rounds of 7.62N ball, about the same 7.62N belted, and an unknown amount of 5.56N (we didn't even have any weapons to fire it until the regular army switched to the F88 and their M16s got handed down), and 9mmP (for a total of 7 pistols in the entire battalion).
This was the annual training supply and could have been a bit less (20+ years ago). It was rumoured that although we were usually a bit short on rifle and machinegun ammo, the battalion had enough 9mm left over to last about a dozen lifetimes! I think we were still being allocated 9mm for the old F1 SMGs we'd handed in a few years before, so it just kept piling up.

[CDAT]

I do not know anything about total amounts, but I know the .50 BMG we were using in 2003 was made in WWII (Dated 44, and 45).

[.45cultist]

And Lake City Ammunition Plant has 4 times the U.S. commercial capacity.

[Blink_Dog]

I was thinking about this very topic about a week ago. This answer is in relation to the Twilight war not so much a zombie outbreak.

There was probably a two maybe even three year period of full tilt production by every ammunition manufacturer worldwide for producing military calibres and production of hunting and civilian use ammo would have ceased. So 5.56N or 7.62x39 would still be available even years after the nukes fly. More obscure calibres with no military use like .38 Special or .44 Magnum would be rare in comparison and only available in small lots.

I would imagine Neutral nations would cash in on ammo sales after the nukes fly due to the worsening global logistic system.

I found this article:
http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/SepOct10/spectrum_smallarms_ammo.html

[Draq]

Not quite. Civilian calibers would still be in production although at a lower rate than military calibers. The pro-gun american public will buy every last round, cartridge and shell at the slightest hint of war, invasion, or threat to the sencond amendment. And keep in mind, when the war starts (Nov 1997) most law enforcement agencies were still using a hodgepodge of weapons and calibers.

[aspqrz]

That's interesting about Lake City. I guess that the likelihood is that there would be a lot of ammo left ... but probably that the supply chain broke down before it could be distributed.

In a Zombie Apocalypse, you could, therefore, reasonably find ammo convoys overrun by said Zombies, planes carrying vital ammo also at overrun airports or airfields, but probably the bulk of the (huge?) stockpiles still in the relevant magazines ... wherever.

Which brings up a related issue ... where the heck does the US store all that ammo?

Presumably several places. But where?

Likewise, anyone know for other countries?

I imagine this is not exactly secret info, just not widely publicised or disseminated,

Phil

[.45cultist]

That's interesting about Lake City. I guess that the likelihood is that there would be a lot of ammo left ... but probably that the supply chain broke down before it could be distributed.

In a Zombie Apocalypse, you could, therefore, reasonably find ammo convoys overrun by said Zombies, planes carrying vital ammo also at overrun airports or airfields, but probably the bulk of the (huge?) stockpiles still in the relevant magazines ... wherever.

Which brings up a related issue ... where the heck does the US store all that ammo?

Presumably several places. But where?

Likewise, anyone know for other countries?

I imagine this is not exactly secret info, just not widely publicised or disseminated,

Phil

Onsite in carts called "buggies", bunkers and rail cars. Plus there is SAAMI safe, Military rejected ammo and contract overrun and surplus ammo all for civilian sale. The contractor was a branch of ATK who owns 75-80% of the civilian ammo makers. LC is one of twelve top plants in the world, the only other one in the Americas is in Brazil. BTW, Lake City is "GOCO", Govt Owned, Contractor Operated. What small arms ammunition it doesn't make or assemble(Winchester SLAP), it packs according to U.S. specs (Bofors 5.56N AP Tungsten core).It is the source of .30-06 Ap, the backbone of U.S. military armor rating programs.

[aspqrz]

So, you're saying it is ALL stored onsite at Salt Lake City?

Seems a bit ... odd ...

Nothing stored nearer, oh, I dunno, major military bases and/or ports or suchlike (and I don't mean stuff presumably 'in transit' from SLC)?

Of course, there's the Maritime Prepositioning Ships in the Indian Ocean (and wherever) and, presumably, the support ships for MEFs and MEBs, those that are embarked at the time of the ZA, presumably ... and aren't sunk/'lost at sea'

I know when I was in the Citizen Military Forces in 1974-75, there was bugger all (if any) ammo stored at Sydney University Regiment base ... if we did a Range Day or suchlike it was provided onsite and, IIRC, came from somewhere out to the west of Sydney ... Holsworthy? Maybe Singleton?

I also know that at Queen Victoria Barracks (Regular Army) in Sydney the only ammo on the premises was for the Browning Hi-Power kept locked in the Paymaster's safe, and brought out when pay was being issued (in cash in those days). Allegedly the ammo had been in the magazine, which was only inserted in the pistol when 'in use', and had been for ... longer than anyone could remember (which was the last time the weapon had been stripped an cleaned rather than merely wiped over externally).

Wouldn't like anyone's chances of getting off more than one shot (because the spring feed in the mag had been under compression for so long) ... and even that wouldn't be a certainty.

No fending off Zombie Hordes with that gun.

(And, no, back in the day, 'armed' sentries at military bases had no ammo in their rifles, either ... MPs, maybe. OOW, possibly)

Phil

[CDAT]

So, you're saying it is ALL stored onsite at Salt Lake City?

Seems a bit ... odd ...

Nothing stored nearer, oh, I dunno, major military bases and/or ports or suchlike (and I don't mean stuff presumably 'in transit' from SLC)?

Of course, there's the Maritime Prepositioning Ships in the Indian Ocean (and wherever) and, presumably, the support ships for MEFs and MEBs, those that are embarked at the time of the ZA, presumably ... and aren't sunk/'lost at sea'

I know when I was in the Citizen Military Forces in 1974-75, there was bugger all (if any) ammo stored at Sydney University Regiment base ... if we did a Range Day or suchlike it was provided onsite and, IIRC, came from somewhere out to the west of Sydney ... Holsworthy? Maybe Singleton?

I also know that at Queen Victoria Barracks (Regular Army) in Sydney the only ammo on the premises was for the Browning Hi-Power kept locked in the Paymaster's safe, and brought out when pay was being issued (in cash in those days). Allegedly the ammo had been in the magazine, which was only inserted in the pistol when 'in use', and had been for ... longer than anyone could remember (which was the last time the weapon had been stripped an cleaned rather than merely wiped over externally).

Wouldn't like anyone's chances of getting off more than one shot (because the spring feed in the mag had been under compression for so long) ... and even that wouldn't be a certainty.

No fending off Zombie Hordes with that gun.

(And, no, back in the day, 'armed' sentries at military bases had no ammo in their rifles, either ... MPs, maybe. OOW, possibly)

Phil


Two things, first it is lake city, not Salt Lake (not sure where lake city is located), second at least in the US every military base that I have been to has ammo stockpiled both war stocks and training ammo, depending on the base and what training can be done there would make a difference on what ammo is there.

[aspqrz]

Two things, first it is lake city, not Salt Lake (not sure where lake city is located), second at least in the US every military base that I have been to has ammo stockpiled both war stocks and training ammo, depending on the base and what training can be done there would make a difference on what ammo is there.

Ah, sorry, Lake City.

So, 'war stocks' are???

The only reference I was able to dig up is for a 'unit of fire' and the definition dates back to WW2 and assumed 1 days high intensity battle (and assumed that would only occur once a month, at least in the PTO) for the unit. AIUI now undefined (or maybe called something else?) Units of Fire are carried on unit transport, at least at Battalion level or above.

ISTR (hazily) that it was assumed that a US/NATO unit would typically have 2-3 UoFs at Battalion, the same at Brigade, and perhaps 2-3 times that much at Divisional level, at least when on a war footing. Whether that was more pious wishful thinking or actuality I have no idea ... I do remember reading that non US NATO (especially the Dutch and Danes) skimped on all sorts of ammo and ordnance, relying on the assumption that the US would bail then out from *their* stocks if the shtf ... which would, of course, burnt US logistics planning to a crisp.

So, I am guessing, bases have (on or nearby) at least one UoF (for long term training rather than combat) and an unspecified amount additional to that for 'war reserve' ... but, presumably, not on the base itself (if in or near a populated area) or one some out of the way part of the base?

Which would be what would be burnt through at least once in any ZA scenario, a la The Walking Dead ... I can't see a lot of aimed headshots (except maybe Marines, if you take their assertions seriously) but one hell of a lot of spray and pray, especially as Zombie numbers escalate.

I would guess that artillery units would be mostly useless by the time the need for them was realised ... they require a rear area to be placed in, but pretty much everywhere would be 'front line' ... as Zombie numbers increase, they'd need more troops defending them than they would contribute firepower to distant units. Unless they can (and do) fire over open sights ... which requires flechette or canister or whatever they call it these days, and I understand that there's never much of it, if it is even available for the caliber weapon in question.

Mortars would, of course, be useful, but run into the resupply problem and, to a lesser extent, the need for a rear area.

Airforce bases? Well, they would have to be defended and, apart from Helicopters (Attack or merely armed), wouldn't have much utility because of lack of the right sort of ordnance, I am guessing. Standard HE/Frag would be worse than useless ... you'd need napalm or massive overkill with something like bomblets, and I suspect they are in relatively short supply,.

Naval bases would have an advantage in that they can simply pull up the gangplank and watch the Zombies mill around on shore ... assuming the base has enough lift capacity to put everyone on ships. And assuming that the infection doesn't get aboard the ships ... at which point they become the venue for a nasty real-life version of a Hollywood slasher flick.

And the Navy's problem would be that, aiui, ships carry only a small number of smallarms, only enough for a tiny fraction of the complement, and, likewise, don't carry a heck of a lot of smallarms ammo for those weapons. Unless, of course, you have a MEF or MEB stationed there, along with its 'Phibs and support ships.

(And that assumes that said Naval Base is actually on or otherwise connected to an Ocean ... I saw enough 'Naval Facilities' in inland locations as I toured all over the US for almost 3 months in 2010 and again in 2014)

Phil

[aspqrz]

Lake City, outside of Independence, MO.

Even more out of the way than SLC!

Phil

[.45cultist]

Ah, sorry, Lake City.

So, 'war stocks' are???

The only reference I was able to dig up is for a 'unit of fire' and the definition dates back to WW2 and assumed 1 days high intensity battle (and assumed that would only occur once a month, at least in the PTO) for the unit. AIUI now undefined (or maybe called something else?) Units of Fire are carried on unit transport, at least at Battalion level or above.

ISTR (hazily) that it was assumed that a US/NATO unit would typically have 2-3 UoFs at Battalion, the same at Brigade, and perhaps 2-3 times that much at Divisional level, at least when on a war footing. Whether that was more pious wishful thinking or actuality I have no idea ... I do remember reading that non US NATO (especially the Dutch and Danes) skimped on all sorts of ammo and ordnance, relying on the assumption that the US would bail then out from *their* stocks if the shtf ... which would, of course, burnt US logistics planning to a crisp.

So, I am guessing, bases have (on or nearby) at least one UoF (for long term training rather than combat) and an unspecified amount additional to that for 'war reserve' ... but, presumably, not on the base itself (if in or near a populated area) or one some out of the way part of the base?

Which would be what would be burnt through at least once in any ZA scenario, a la The Walking Dead ... I can't see a lot of aimed headshots (except maybe Marines, if you take their assertions seriously) but one hell of a lot of spray and pray, especially as Zombie numbers escalate.

I would guess that artillery units would be mostly useless by the time the need for them was realised ... they require a rear area to be placed in, but pretty much everywhere would be 'front line' ... as Zombie numbers increase, they'd need more troops defending them than they would contribute firepower to distant units. Unless they can (and do) fire over open sights ... which requires flechette or canister or whatever they call it these days, and I understand that there's never much of it, if it is even available for the caliber weapon in question.

Mortars would, of course, be useful, but run into the resupply problem and, to a lesser extent, the need for a rear area.

Airforce bases? Well, they would have to be defended and, apart from Helicopters (Attack or merely armed), wouldn't have much utility because of lack of the right sort of ordnance, I am guessing. Standard HE/Frag would be worse than useless ... you'd need napalm or massive overkill with something like bomblets, and I suspect they are in relatively short supply,.

Naval bases would have an advantage in that they can simply pull up the gangplank and watch the Zombies mill around on shore ... assuming the base has enough lift capacity to put everyone on ships. And assuming that the infection doesn't get aboard the ships ... at which point they become the venue for a nasty real-life version of a Hollywood slasher flick.

And the Navy's problem would be that, aiui, ships carry only a small number of smallarms, only enough for a tiny fraction of the complement, and, likewise, don't carry a heck of a lot of smallarms ammo for those weapons. Unless, of course, you have a MEF or MEB stationed there, along with its 'Phibs and support ships.

(And that assumes that said Naval Base is actually on or otherwise connected to an Ocean ... I saw enough 'Naval Facilities' in inland locations as I toured all over the US for almost 3 months in 2010 and again in 2014)

Phil

As I understand it, each TO&E says "X" amount of Ammunition to train and "Y" amount of Ammunition for war is to be stored. You don't just dump excess ammo from one into the other. And a few careers have ended over inappropriate disposal before Change of Command, when the unit property books are inspected. For a "Z" scenario or early in the Twilight War this could change though. So if a unit is allotted 10 cases of 5.56N to deploy in war, it has 1 to 10 cases allotted for re-qualification and training depending on the circumstances.

[Apache6]

Stateside in the U.S., major bases have a certain ammount of contingency ammunition which is really maintained to provide the initial combat load for forces mounting out for expeditionary operations. I will not state specific amounts but it's more then a couple combat loads (though it veries by type) for units assigned there with expeditionary missions.

There is also normally a fairly large amount of ammunition stored for training. A major combat unit goes through a lot of ammunitiion over a course of a year. The ammunition is normally ordered and delivered based on fiscal year (begining in October rather then Jan) training cycles.

At an absolote minimum, even a non deployable Marine unit gets ~ 400 rounds of 5.56mm for each Marine to conduct annual rifle range requalification and ~ 200 rounds of 9mm for each SNCO/Officer and junior Marine assigned a pistol to conduct annual pistol qualification.

Deployable combat arms units are allocated much more ammo.

There are several VERY large ammunition stockpiles on the east and west coast which are built near major ports to allow for then to be sent overseas, each also has rail and road access, built to allow them to receive munitions from the factories. Would also serve to allow it to be sent out.

Both the Army and the Navy (for the USMC) have contracted ammunition ships which contain large ammunition stockpiles which are designed to support major combat operations by brigade sized units. The Maritime Positioning Ships, contracted by USN in support of USMC land operations stock 15 days worth of ammunition for a Marine Expeditionary Brigade.

[Raellus]

My impression is that there's not as much ammo out there as we'd like to believe.

I wish I'd posted it when I first encountered it, but a few years ago, I read an article about how the U.S. military was having a hard time keeping 5.56mm and 7.62mm ammo in stock- it was right after "The Surge", I believe. The military was having to purchase ammo off-the-shelf on the civilian market to make up for shortfalls. Recent articles have claimed that the U.S. is currently running very low on air-dropped munitions. Supply simply hasn't kept up with demand.

Also, after the Sandy Hook elementary school mass shooting, it was really difficult for civilians to find .223 or 5.56mm ammo as there was a panic run on many calibers of small arms ammo ("Oh no! Obama's coming for our guns now!"). I pretty much gave up on hobby shooting at that time. In fact, in one of the saddest phenomena in my country, this sort of thing happens after nearly every mass shooting, and firearms sales skyrocket.

So, from this anecdotal evidence, I think ammo would quickly become scarce in a major national crisis (World War, Zombacalype, etc.). Yeah, there'd be pockets of supply, but they'd be few and far between. I always laugh when folks go full auto on TWD, especially in later seasons. Wishful thinking, at best.

[CDAT]

Ah, sorry, Lake City.

No problem, just thought would let you know they are different.


So, 'war stocks' are???

War stocks are the ammo on hand so a unit can go to war with out having to wait for ammo. It is different than training ammo in some things. Like the Tanks will not be using target practice ammo, but full up Sabot, and or HEAT rounds. The MG ammo will be the AP type not the ball (most likely). How much is on hand depends on the unit, I would expect the 82nd to have more per soldier than 91st troop command. My first unit was an enhanced brigade with standing orders to be ready to fight in Korea, the plan at the time was that if war broke out we would be the first heavy unit there and expect to fight for at least two weeks before the next unit could show up, so our war stocks was what they expected we would need for two weeks of combat. I would guess (and it is only a guess) after they started to let plans like that slide (and going to central supply) that there would still be at least one full combat load, but maybe not much more. No this next part is just my thought so could be very wrong. But my thought is if they did it smart, they would have each unit have it, but going up would still include there lower units, as about the only thing that can be said for how much ammo you go through is that it is more than you think. So using my old unit as an example the brigade would have there two weeks, but then the division would still include that brigade in its plans for how much to keep on hand, so if the divisions plan is that it will be resupplied within a week, and it has four brigades it would keep four brigades worth for a week, or one brigade for four weeks.


So, I am guessing, bases have (on or nearby) at least one UoF (for long term training rather than combat) and an unspecified amount additional to that for 'war reserve' ... but, presumably, not on the base itself (if in or near a populated area) or one some out of the way part of the base?

Some would depend on what training could be done at the base. For example I was sent to Camp Rilea OR once, they have a demo limit of .25lbs so they do not need much demo for training, but I also know that they have a guard engineer unit there. They would have full demo load for war, but not training. Training ammo is usually allotted at the start of the training year, and then issued out as needed over the year. In the event of the zombie hoard I think that they would use it as well, but depending on how much has been used there may not be much or could just have gotten it. It is normally stored at the AHA (Ammo Holding Area) or ASP (Ammo Supply Point) in special bunkers.


Which would be what would be burnt through at least once in any ZA scenario, a la The Walking Dead ... I can't see a lot of aimed headshots (except maybe Marines, if you take their assertions seriously) but one hell of a lot of spray and pray, especially as Zombie numbers escalate.

I think that you may have some spray and pray early on, but the ones who did it would die early on. It would be the ones who took the head shoots would live, the Marines may take it at a longer range than the typical Soldier, but even with the Marines saying that everyone is a rifleman first, that does not mean that they are going to be taking head shoots at 600 meters. I think that automatic weapons (IE. crew served) would still be used in full auto mode, as most are not supper accurate if used as semi-auto, so use them to thin the herd at longer range, even if you do not drop them you may slow them down.


I would guess that artillery units would be mostly useless by the time the need for them was realised ... they require a rear area to be placed in, but pretty much everywhere would be 'front line' ... as Zombie numbers increase, they'd need more troops defending them than they would contribute firepower to distant units. Unless they can (and do) fire over open sights ... which requires flechette or canister or whatever they call it these days, and I understand that there's never much of it, if it is even available for the caliber weapon in question.

Towed artillery I would agree would be mostly useless, self-propeld guns would not depending on the ammo they have on hand. Dropping an HE round at what would be danger close to dismounts does not hurt the armored vehicle, does it kill very many zombies? I do not know but does damage them, is that good or bad? Again I do not know, they are likely going to be slower now, but also may be harder to see. They did have canister rounds for the 105mm, and the 155mm, what is on hand that is a different story.


Mortars would, of course, be useful, but run into the resupply problem and, to a lesser extent, the need for a rear area.

I would say that they would be a lot like artillery, the ground ones would be less useful, the armored ones more. However they are going to be in some ways less useful than the artillery as they are open when firing, so zombies could get in.


Airforce bases? Well, they would have to be defended and, apart from Helicopters (Attack or merely armed), wouldn't have much utility because of lack of the right sort of ordnance, I am guessing. Standard HE/Frag would be worse than useless ... you'd need napalm or massive overkill with something like bomblets, and I suspect they are in relatively short supply,.

I agree that I think Airforce bases would be more or less useless. But not for the same reasons. As I was saying under artillery I am not sure that HE/Frag would be useless (or worse), they may not be the best, but I could see them having some use, the larger the group the better. ICM (bomblets) would be good, and yes I am guessing that they do not have as many as HE bombs, but we use lots of them so I would guess they have a fair number on hand. Napalm I would guess is the one they have the least of and it could work but I see so side affects, once the zombie is on fire how long tell it dies? What else is it going to set on fire? Now the reasons that I think it would be more or less useless, I do not think that they have enough troops to secure the base, they probably have the lowest trained ground troops of all, and they are the highest maintenance of all. How many spare parts do they have on hand? On my second trip to the sand box, we got delayed for a week as they did not have a simple (what the crew said) part on hand at the air base. It took them the week to get it shipped to them, and then about ten minutes to replace the part. Could they have flow with out it? I am guessing yes, but as it was a common part (again according to the crew) what about the parts that they can not fly with? So my guess is that within a week of the Zombie Outbreak taking over they would be out of parts and grounded, if they had not already been overran.


Naval bases would have an advantage in that they can simply pull up the gangplank and watch the Zombies mill around on shore ... assuming the base has enough lift capacity to put everyone on ships. And assuming that the infection doesn't get aboard the ships ... at which point they become the venue for a nasty real-life version of a Hollywood slasher flick.

I am guessing that they do not have enough space for all, and like all bases could not be defended, but I could see some of the ships being a good starting point. It would take some planing and moving of supplies, but for some time a very good option.


And the Navy's problem would be that, aiui, ships carry only a small number of smallarms, only enough for a tiny fraction of the complement, and, likewise, don't carry a heck of a lot of smallarms ammo for those weapons. Unless, of course, you have a MEF or MEB stationed there, along with its 'Phibs and support ships.

The bigger issue I think would be the lack of guns (not small arms) on the ships. If you are sending troops to the shore for supplies and have already used your missiles (very small number with no reloads for most) then what.

[Apache6]

I'm not saying there will not be shortages caused by uneven distribution.

I am saying that there are enough small arms rounds in the US military inventory to deal with a "zombie outbreak" or lots of other contingencies. There are significant stockpiles of small arms rounds, and other munitions.

The following link has a lot of information. Short synopsis, the pre 9/11 annual requirement for 5.56 rounds was 682 million rounds. That was increased to 1.35 billion rounds. The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant is capable at full production rate of making 1.2 billion rounds a year.

http://www.alu.army.mil/alog/issues/SepOct10/spectrum_smallarms_ammo.html

The lack of ammunition during the surge was for a specific type of "New" round for the 5.56.

The above does not even begin to account for the rounds held by private individuals, police departments, and retailers/wholesalers (Walmart, Cabelas, Bass Pro-Shop...) or for ammunition either made by civilian companies or imported.Shortages of civilian ammo has largely been caused by politically fueled fears. Again, that is VERY likely to occur during a real panic, so I'm not saying that their will not be shortages. .22 Long Rifle ammunition has become both expensive and hard to get, but it's being produced at higher then normal levels. US commercial plants are capable of manufacturing up to 4.2 billion rounds of .22 LR each year, and they are now.

[.45cultist]

I'm not saying there will not be shortages caused by uneven distribution.

I am saying that there are enough small arms rounds in the US military inventory to deal with a "zombie outbreak" or lots of other contingencies. There are significant stockpiles of small arms rounds, and other munitions.

The following link has a lot of information. Short synopsis, the pre 9/11 annual requirement for 5.56 rounds was 682 million rounds. That was increased to 1.35 billion rounds. The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant is capable at full production rate of making 1.2 billion rounds a year.

http://www.alu.army.mil/alog/issues/SepOct10/spectrum_smallarms_ammo.html

The lack of ammunition during the surge was for a specific type of "New" round for the 5.56.

The above does not even begin to account for the rounds held by private individuals, police departments, and retailers/wholesalers (Walmart, Cabelas, Bass Pro-Shop...) or for ammunition either made by civilian companies or imported.Shortages of civilian ammo has largely been caused by politically fueled fears. Again, that is VERY likely to occur during a real panic, so I'm not saying that their will not be shortages. .22 Long Rifle ammunition has become both expensive and hard to get, but it's being produced at higher then normal levels. US commercial plants are capable of manufacturing up to 4.2 billion rounds of .22 LR each year, and they are now.

They operate at about 1/3 or so capacity. It would take the T2K timeline to bring it to full strength- just in time for the bombs.

[dragoon500ly]

A lot also depends on if the unit maintains a partial load on its heavy vehicles, roe example, in the 1980s, tank units in Germany, forward of Ansbach, would maintain a load of 40 rounds of main gun ammo, usually 25 APDS and 15 HEAT. When an alert was sounded, the plan (snicker) was to move out to our ready positions, where the ASP would bring the semis with the rest of the ammo load to us. Since we had M60A3s, our WP and HEP were stored on the trailers, following the switch to M1s, everything was switched to APDS/HEAT only. Since.we were armored cavalry, we also had a selection of land mines, cratering charges and demolition gear, as well as TOWs, Dragons and LAWs.

For the units stationed west of Ansbach, they depended on the ASPs for all of their ammunition. Although I have heard that this policy was changed whenever tensions increased.

Pretty much the only units that I am aware of that had small arms ammo readily available were the units equipped with Pershing, the forward SAM batteries.

Going stateside...trust soldiers with live ammo? Only on the firing ranges! The ASPs were protected by armed civilian security. :rolleyes:

As the tee shirt says, "They don't trust us with ammo, but they want us to be able to run really fast..."

[Apache6]

I use T2K Version 1 timeline, so I think that the Russian - Chinese war would provide the lead time needed to ramp up the ammo production.

I know that US government contracts often include a contingency capabilty requirement. They are 'contracted' for a certain amount of production capability, even though the actual orders might be for less. Theoretically they already have the materials and workers to ramp up production.

USMC and Navy ASPs are ran by service members, the security forces are supplied with live ammo.

[Draq]

Don't forget, the us was also operating in the middle east and africa. So production would be considered 'war time' I think.

[aspqrz]

Thanks for all the replies, I have a much better handle on how things would play out in a ZA style scenario now!

Phil

[.45cultist]

Thanks for all the replies, I have a much better handle on how things would play out in a ZA style scenario now!

Phil

I'm toying with the GPS Biohazard entry, which is a type of living zombie- Infected, Rager type. Since There are a lot of resistant bugs, I'm going with the lab working to solve this. When the accident occurs, an investor rep is present. The bacteria seem benign in its currant strain and the all clear is given. He has several grants to check across the U.S. getting the bacteria into the international airports, where a mutation gives it its deadly variant.
This is as far as I've gotten. Sorry about the OT. But ammo availability will vary according to population and law. New Jersy discourages self defense with hollow points, they've even jailed retired LEO's for failure to turn the ammunition in. Also during one ammo panic, police departments had to wait 6 months to replenish their stocks.

[Legbreaker]

I use T2K Version 1 timeline, so I think that the Russian - Chinese war would provide the lead time needed to ramp up the ammo production.

Last I heard the Chinese didn't use Nato calibre ammo, therefore most of the ammo production during this period (beyond normal peacetime production) would be useless for the US and allies.

[aspqrz]

I'm toying with the GPS Biohazard entry, which is a type of living zombie- Infected, Rager type. Since There are a lot of resistant bugs, I'm going with the lab working to solve this. When the accident occurs, an investor rep is present. The bacteria seem benign in its currant strain and the all clear is given. He has several grants to check across the U.S. getting the bacteria into the international airports, where a mutation gives it its deadly variant

As I sorta stated at the beginning, there are NO ZA books, movies or TV series that bear even the most cursory logical examination. Not a one.

They are all completely, totally, and utterly implausible ... indeed, mostly impossible.

Some I can tolerate because they are fun, and, generally, short ... others, are just too stupid for words. A few start out well and then descend into idiocy ... Ringo's books are like that, first was fine. Second started to become unbelievable. Third (and presumably successive ones) completely jumped the shark.

There are three key issues that ZA scenarios completely ignore because, if they took them into account, they would all be disasters, but not apocalyptic ones with mankind almost wiped out.

1) Zombies use energy (to move around and chase down other humans at the very least). Unless you repeal the laws of thermodynamics, the energy has to come from *somewhere* ... so Zombies need to eat.

As they are, by definition, possessed of at best animal cunning and no intelligence as such, that immediately eliminates all tinned and heavily packaged foods as a food source, and, in any case, they'll all be gone in a few days to a week or so from local stores, anyway.

Ergo, they need to eat something readily available ... since they are probably too stupid to recognise most plant foods (fruits and suchlike excepted) and since there is bugger all of such in cities, they will eat meat. Any meat. Not just humans.

The result? Well, how many herbivores does it take to feed a single Lion? Or how many Deer to feed a single Coyote? Given, of course, that the prey doesn't really want to be a Lion or Coyote's main course?

Answer: A heck of a lot. Which is why Lions are so thin on the ground and Coyotes ditto (compared to humans or human domesticated animals).

So, within a very short time cities might as well be deserts ... not enough food to support more than dozens or scores of zombies in an entire city ... unless the zombies eat each other, which has the same effect, more quickly, in fact.

There would be no massive hordes of zombies keeping people penned up on rooftops or the barricaded upper floors of multi-storey buildings ... not gonna happen.

In the countryside? Not much better for zombies ... they'll have to spread out like any apex predator, so the density per square mile will actually be very very low. So, at best, a dozen or so in a group, maybe a score or so.

Makes for very short post Zombie adventures.

2) Humans are quite fragile. Living in unsanitary conditions kills us off in large numbers, especially if malnourished.

Note what I pointed out in #1 above. Zombies will be thin on the ground because there isn't enough food.

Follow on. Humans are ill suited to relying on instinct and natural weapons to secure food ... the reason why we are the apex predator of apex predators is that we are intelligent. Tool use etc.

Zombies aren't intelligent and don't use tools. They would be relatively useless as hunters. They will routinely be malnourished ... if they remain in an urban setting, garbage and pollution will be breeding grounds for all sorts of nasties that would require modern medical care to allow them to survive ... and a heck of a lot more that will kill people (zombies) who get no medical care at all (it is well known, if widely underappreciated, that basic nursing can reduce the death rate for even high lethality diseases such as Smallpox, the Plague etc. Keeping the patient warm/cool/protected from the elements, toileted and clean, fed and watered).

The mortality rate would be very very high, and ongoing.

Zombies in rural areas, presumably away from urban filth, would be better off ... but, as noted, almost certainly routinely undernourished and, hence, much more susceptible to disease. And, of course, this brings us to ...

3) Climate. Humans are woefully adapted for anything but a warm climate. Our intelligence and tool use enable us to modify our environment and/or makes us resistant to it (housing, climate control, clothing) ... but Zombies simply aren't intelligent.

Ringo Zombies, being completely naked and all, if not thinned by starvation or disease, would increasingly succumb to exposure ... especially as the weather turns cold.

In most of North America and Northern Europe they would, for example, freeze to death in droves over the first (and all succeeding) winters.

I suppose they might instinctively migrate to warmer climates ... but that can bring its own problems. Think about unintelligent instinct driven poorly adapted for hunting or survival zombies trying to work their way south in the US ... into increasingly arid and semi-arid areas (if not outright deserts).

More die backs in large numbers.

Finally, as a clue as to how many Zombies the planet could support - it is estimated that our early stone age ancestors probably numbered no more than 100,000 worldwide ... only increasing to a million or so with the technological developments of the New Stone Age and Chalcolithic period.

Not much of a threat.

YMMV

Phil

[aspqrz]

I, to, have been kicking around ideas of how to have something like a realistic 'Zombie Apocalypse' ... and, as you may have guessed from the immediately preceeding post, it can't be done with anything like classical zombies.

But you can get a similar effect, I think.

I posit a badly mismanaged (or merely incredibly unfortunate) 'supersoldier' project designed to use wet nanotech to create enhanced human combatants. Make them stronger, faster, more resistant to injury ... create an internal 'mechanical telepathy' (hook a wet nanotech transceiver created internally that allows networked comms between them) and create a networkable but bios controlled tactical computer to assist them.

Add to this mission creep ... the ability for the nanotech to be (relatively) easily passed on to friendlies and to reanimate newly dead (enemy of course, say the PR flacks) corpses into remotely controlled meat puppets.

See where this is going?

See, unfortunately, using the supersoldier abilities tends to cook your brain (a la Ringo zombies), at least in the early stages ... and then the programmed tactical computer combines with the remaining animal instinct ... so you get severely brain damaged pseudo-zombies who can use tools (weapons at the very least) and maybe even drive simple vehicles.

Worse, the reproduction capacity meshes ... badly ... with the brain damaged ones, and they will attempt to impregnate captives or recently dead with 'eggs' (wet nanotech products that start converting those into which they are inserted into zombies ... or breeders, whose body is turned into an incubator for more 'eggs').

Even though the nanotech isn't all that infectious, it can be spread by blood or bodily fluids or other wastes through mucous membranes or skin punctures, cuts or abrasions.

Thing is, the more Zombie Supersoldiers there are in close proximity, the more intelligent they become, the more dangerous ... the more like real soldiers ... and, once a critical mass is achieved, one or more in each super-group will start to develop something like a 'machine intelligence' with a degree of self awareness ... but rarely tempered by any compassion or emotion, merely the need for survival.

They won't (initially) spread explosively from some lab accident, but if they spread anywhere and have time to form a breeding colony and reach a critical mass, heck, once they get access to decent weapons, you're effed.

Then assume, in desperation, one side (who presumably sees themselves to be 'losing') in a Twilight War or 3rd World War type situation lets them lose, not properly tested ... really, really nasty.

They're not unkillable mindless husks hungering for braaaiiinnnsss ... they're something far, far worse.

Phil

[aspqrz]

Oh, and the wetware tactical computer includes basic and advanced first aid and resource gathering (including food gathering) skills ... and the late stage machine intelligence level leaders are capable of using prisoners to raise crops or even to have a predatory 'protection racket' collecting 'contributions' from anyone unable to resist by force of arms. Or simply stealing food.

Phil

[ArmySGT.]

That's interesting about Lake City. I guess that the likelihood is that there would be a lot of ammo left ... but probably that the supply chain broke down before it could be distributed.

In a Zombie Apocalypse, you could, therefore, reasonably find ammo convoys overrun by said Zombies, planes carrying vital ammo also at overrun airports or airfields, but probably the bulk of the (huge?) stockpiles still in the relevant magazines ... wherever.

Which brings up a related issue ... where the heck does the US store all that ammo?

Presumably several places. But where?

Likewise, anyone know for other countries?

I imagine this is not exactly secret info, just not widely publicised or disseminated,

Phil

Google Earth places like Sierra Army Depot, Seneca Army Depot, Umatilla Army Depot, Tooele Army Depot........... and just search Army Depot or Army Ammunition plant.

Miles of concrete bunkers called "Igloos"........ Sensitive items are protected by an alarm system that goes back to a guard complex with a reaction force, loud klaxon alarm, rotating red or amber beacon, and sometimes a very large CS dispenser that saturates the bunker.

An Army Post has its own ammunition bunkers these are divided up the Ammunition Supply Point to units in training versus units to deploy.

Any Unit is supposed to have enough munitions for three days of continous ops without resupply. Then they get another 3 day logpack or "Push".

[ArmySGT.]

More obscure calibres with no military use like .38 Special or .44 Magnum would be rare in comparison and only available in small lots.

When I was at White Sands Missile Range in the early 90's there was a National Match Armory run by the Post Command Staff.

National Match M1 Garands, M1Cs, M1Ds all in 30.06. National Match M1911s in .45ACP and .38 Super. Match M10s with bull barrels in .38 spl.


Thousands of rounds of match ammo on hand. Post never really did have a Team though. Two year rotations was the norm there.

[ArmySGT.]

Which brings up a related issue ... where the heck does the US store all that ammo?

Presumably several places. But where?

Likewise, anyone know for other countries?

I imagine this is not exactly secret info, just not widely publicised or disseminated,

Phil


Alice Springs has a vast complex of ammunition bunkers for the U.S. as a contingency for a war in South East Asia. Guam hosts vast bunkers for the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Air Force.

[Legbreaker]

Alice Springs? The town right slap in the middle of Australia, a thousand miles from nowhere and even further from anywhere important?

[ArmySGT.]

Alice Springs? The town right slap in the middle of Australia, a thousand miles from nowhere and even further from anywhere important?

Yup........ vast complex of igloos...... 4-6 U.S. soldiers (Supply) assigned there. I think it is priority target for a SLBM so it is far from any population centers.

[RN7]

Yup........ vast complex of igloos...... 4-6 U.S. soldiers (Supply) assigned there. I think it is priority target for a SLBM so it is far from any population centers.


I think you might be confusing the significance of Pine Gap which is near Alice Springs by thinking or stating that it is the location of a major US weapons and munitions depot.

The US intelligence and satellite tracking station of Pine Gap is located 11 miles (18km) south-west of Alice Springs in the Northern Territiry. The reason it is located in Australia is because it controls US ISR (spy) satellites as they pass over this portion of the globe which includes China, the Middle East and the Asian part of Russia. The reason why the US established an intelligence and satellite tracking station at Pine Gap is because it is so remote and so far inland that passing spy ships cannot intercept US signal traffic.

But for what reason would the US establish a major military munitions depot at such a remote and not easily accessible location as Alice Springs when (1) there are more suitable locations in other parts of Australia, and (2) when the US already has Military Prepositioning Ship (MPS) squadron at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and at Guam in the north-western Pacific.

Also if the US has a military munitions depot in Alice Springs then the US and Australian governments would have established a logistical capacity to rapidly redeploy such weapons and munitions from Alice Springs, such as building long runways so that US heavy transport aircraft could land and take off safely. For a fully loaded heavy transport aircraft such as C-5 Galaxy or a Boeing 747 freighter to safely take off you are going to need a runway of 10,000 feet, or maybe even longer. Alice Springs Airport has two runways, the longest is 7,999 feet. The nearest suitable runway for US heavy transport aircraft in the Northern Territory is Darwin International Airport (also RAAF Base Darwin), and to a lesser extent RAAF Base Tindal in Katherine, both located at the top end of the Northern Territory and nearly 1,000 miles from Alice Springs.

[ArmySGT.]

I think you might be confusing the significance of Pine Gap which is near Alice Springs by thinking or stating that it is the location of a major US weapons and munitions depot.

The US intelligence and satellite tracking station of Pine Gap is located 11 miles (18km) south-west of Alice Springs in the Northern Territiry. The reason it is located in Australia is because it controls US ISR (spy) satellites as they pass over this portion of the globe which includes China, the Middle East and the Asian part of Russia. The reason why the US established an intelligence and satellite tracking station at Pine Gap is because it is so remote and so far inland that passing spy ships cannot intercept US signal traffic.

But for what reason would the US establish a major military munitions depot at such a remote and not easily accessible location as Alice Springs when (1) there are more suitable locations in other parts of Australia, and (2) when the US already has Military Prepositioning Ship (MPS) squadron at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and at Guam in the north-western Pacific.

Also if the US has a military munitions depot in Alice Springs then the US and Australian governments would have established a logistical capacity to rapidly redeploy such weapons and munitions from Alice Springs, such as building long runways so that US heavy transport aircraft could land and take off safely. For a fully loaded heavy transport aircraft such as C-5 Galaxy or a Boeing 747 freighter to safely take off you are going to need a runway of 10,000 feet, or maybe even longer. Alice Springs Airport has two runways, the longest is 7,999 feet. The nearest suitable runway for US heavy transport aircraft in the Northern Territory is Darwin International Airport (also RAAF Base Darwin), and to a lesser extent RAAF Base Tindal in Katherine, both located at the top end of the Northern Territory and nearly 1,000 miles from Alice Springs.

I am trying to recollect a phone conversation I had with my Branch in 2002. I could well be wrong on Alice Springs. This was for a prepositioned muntions stockpile in Australia. My request was denied, the MP position was E8 and the other personnel were Supply. There were less than 10 Americans assigned so this could well be a joint facility.

[ArmySGT.]

But for what reason would the US establish a major military munitions depot at such a remote and not easily accessible location as Alice Springs when (1) there are more suitable locations in other parts of Australia, and (2) when the US already has Military Prepositioning Ship (MPS) squadron at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and at Guam in the north-western Pacific.

Also if the US has a military munitions depot in Alice Springs then the US and Australian governments would have established a logistical capacity to rapidly redeploy such weapons and munitions from Alice Springs, such as building long runways so that US heavy transport aircraft could land and take off safely. For a fully loaded heavy transport aircraft such as C-5 Galaxy or a Boeing 747 freighter to safely take off you are going to need a runway of 10,000 feet, or maybe even longer. Alice Springs Airport has two runways, the longest is 7,999 feet. The nearest suitable runway for US heavy transport aircraft in the Northern Territory is Darwin International Airport (also RAAF Base Darwin), and to a lesser extent RAAF Base Tindal in Katherine, both located at the top end of the Northern Territory and nearly 1,000 miles from Alice Springs.

Don't try to inject logic into the U.S. Army logistics system. You will only drive yourself insane.

[dragoon500ly]

Don't try to inject logic into the U.S. Army logistics system. You will only drive yourself insane.

Amen, brother, Amen!

[aspqrz]

According to ...

http://www.anti-bases.org/campaigns/NMD_PineGap/Map_of_US_Military_Bases_in_Australia.html

... the only US facilities in Alice Springs are those that form part of Pine Gap.

There are no US logistics facilities listed - I suppose there could be small onsite ammo stores for local use, but nothing as big as you suggest ... and I seriously doubt it could be hidden well enough for these ferrets to not find out about its existence and publish it the world. After all, Australia is not the DPRNK.

A major ammo storage facility (the largest in Australia) is at Myambat (Muswelbrook, upper Hunter river valley, north of Sydney, in use since 1938), but that's ADF, not US.

Phil

[rcaf_777]

Before

[rcaf_777]

After

[aspqrz]

That's somewhat ... cavalier ... when we had Range Days they checked the soles of our GPs to make sure no spent brass was caught in the tread 'accidentally' ...

Phil

[Legbreaker]

when we had Range Days they checked the soles of our GPs to make sure no spent brass was caught in the tread 'accidentally'

That's a bit more extreme that what we had to go through. Just had webbing ammo pouches physically searched (by an NCO simply putting his hands inside), and occasionally we'd have to empty our packs.

After we'd left the range (which usually was the local rifle clubs) there'd be a horde of civilians scouring the mounds for any brass we'd missed to reload. It was also not unknown for older worn out brass to be swapped with the "new" brass we had - as long as the weight was right....

[pmulcahy11b]

That's a bit more extreme that what we had to go through. Just had webbing ammo pouches physically searched (by an NCO simply putting his hands inside), and occasionally we'd have to empty our packs.


But god help you if they found some brass or links in your clothing or gear...they usually make you strip down to your underwear while assuming the position against the wall and insulting and threatening you the whole time. I've even seen Article 15s given out.

Now if they find a live round...well, even god cannot help you at that point!

[pmulcahy11b]

The stockpile pictures remind me of the ammo and weapon "depot" used by Sarah Connor in Terminator 2.

[Legbreaker]

All together now!

"I HAVE NO LIVE ROUNDS OR RANGE PRODUCTS IN MY POSSESSION, SIR!!!"

[CDAT]

All together now!

"I HAVE NO LIVE ROUNDS OR RANGE PRODUCTS IN MY POSSESSION, SIR!!!"

It was "NO BRASS, NO AMMO, DRILL SERGEANT" for me, only time they ever cared to check us.

[swaghauler]

Also remember that certain "training facilities" are included in Continuity Of Government (hereafter COG) planning. In PA, we have Ft. Indiantown Gap (the GAP to NG soldiers). It contains a large munitions dump (enough ammo for the 28th Division INCLUDING artillery and AT munitions) with at least a couple of MILLION rounds small arms ammo. This ammo is SPECIFICALLY for a COG scenario.
In OH, you have the newly REESTABLISHED Ravenna Arsenal. The Ravenna Arsenal was a decommissioned ammo plant that was taken over by the OH National Guard as a training facility and is now being considered as a Missile Center for the East Coast (THAAD, I'm guessing). There is a huge COG stockpile there as well (2 divisions worth at least).

Then you have the AMSA (Army Maintenance & Support Assistance) depots. There are half a dozen in PA alone. These centers provide technical support (mechanics, admin, and armorers) for up to a dozen reserve or NG units (generally company sized units) and hold stores of weapons, equipment, vehicles, fuel and at least enough small arms ammo (and spare parts) to give every company they serve "one loadout" of rifle and pistol ammo in case of a disaster. The one we have at the Keystone Ordinance Training Center also has a million gallons of fuel in its storage tanks. AMSA Depots are the NG's first line of supply in a disaster. They would be a key resource in the early stages of any NG "call-out."

[.45cultist]

Also remember that certain "training facilities" are included in Continuity Of Government (hereafter COG) planning. In PA, we have Ft. Indiantown Gap (the GAP to NG soldiers). It contains a large munitions dump (enough ammo for the 28th Division INCLUDING artillery and AT munitions) with at least a couple of MILLION rounds small arms ammo. This ammo is SPECIFICALLY for a COG scenario.
In OH, you have the newly REESTABLISHED Ravenna Arsenal. The Ravenna Arsenal was a decommissioned ammo plant that was taken over by the OH National Guard as a training facility and is now being considered as a Missile Center for the East Coast (THAAD, I'm guessing). There is a huge COG stockpile there as well (2 divisions worth at least).

Then you have the AMSA (Army Maintenance & Support Assistance) depots. There are half a dozen in PA alone. These centers provide technical support (mechanics, admin, and armorers) for up to a dozen reserve or NG units (generally company sized units) and hold stores of weapons, equipment, vehicles, fuel and at least enough small arms ammo (and spare parts) to give every company they serve "one loadout" of rifle and pistol ammo in case of a disaster. The one we have at the Keystone Ordinance Training Center also has a million gallons of fuel in its storage tanks. AMSA Depots are the NG's first line of supply in a disaster. They would be a key resource in the early stages of any NG "call-out."

That would be a heck of a "pull" to start an adventure. A mixed bag of civvies and soldiers trying to acquire an AMSA for their enclave.

[pmulcahy11b]

It was "NO BRASS, NO AMMO, DRILL SERGEANT" for me, only time they ever cared to check us.

And don't joke with the drill sergeant and loudly shout, "No ass, no brammo, drill sergeant!!!" You get to do pushups until "he gets tired." Plus you get searched for brass just for the hell of it.

[Raellus]

I've got a missing rounds story, I think.

When I was a pre-teen, my family lived in Ecuador, in a condo next to a Ecuadorian army general. He had an Uzi-armed guard posted outside his house day and night. My little brother and I befriended one of them. In our pigeon-Spanish, we taught him the rules of baseball and, in return, he let us take photos of each other holding the Uzi. We even talked him into giving us a live 9mm round as a souvenir. That was the last we saw of that particular guard. :o

[swaghauler]

The other "hidden source" of ammunition was touched on in TW2K13...Reloading. In the event of a major "event," I would be hitting Gander Mountain, Dunham Sports, or Field & Stream and acquiring all the bullets, powder, and primers I could get my hands on. I do have bullet molds in some of my calibers, but commercial ones are better. I can make primers (using fulminated Mercury and heavy aluminum foil wrap) and both black and smokeless powder, but the commercial stuff is way better (and safer).
At the height of my competitive shooting "addiction" (I couldn't call it a "career" as it cost me far more money than I won), I had enough reloading components to roll 75K rounds in any given year (I averaged between 30K and 50K rounds shooting IPSIC, IDPA, 3-Gun, and Street Tacticals). I can roll around 15K rounds now that I don't have time to shoot as much. A typical progressive reloading rig would cost about $2K with all the tools and other equipment you need. I can roll about 300 rounds of good ammo an hour on my Dillon 550 Press. Primers would be the biggest problem in a crisis.
I don't understand why the Walking Dead didn't just have the characters grab a reloading press and components in one of the episodes. There would be REAL VALUE in having someone cranking out a thousand rounds a day during the apocalypse...but then they give the characters about a dozen full auto AKs in the show. The odds of there being that many NFA/Class 3 AKs in a single area are simply ASTRONOMICAL. Those should be tri-burst M4's and A2's picked up from dead soldiers, NOT full auto AKs. To make it worse, Rick is actually carrying a full auto AK-74! There might be (at most) a hundred of those in the US. Most in manufacturer's vaults. They should just have used semi-autos. That would be realistic in the US. I guess the problem is that the (not very gun savvy) producers think that Americans can just walk down to the local sporting goods store and pick up a Class 3 weapon.

[ArmySGT.]

According to ...

http://www.anti-bases.org/campaigns/NMD_PineGap/Map_of_US_Military_Bases_in_Australia.html

... the only US facilities in Alice Springs are those that form part of Pine Gap.

There are no US logistics facilities listed - I suppose there could be small onsite ammo stores for local use, but nothing as big as you suggest ... and I seriously doubt it could be hidden well enough for these ferrets to not find out about its existence and publish it the world. After all, Australia is not the DPRNK.

A major ammo storage facility (the largest in Australia) is at Myambat (Muswelbrook, upper Hunter river valley, north of Sydney, in use since 1938), but that's ADF, not US.

Phil

I don't know much about that site. I saw it during a search but, dismissed them as a conspiracy site such as we have here in the States.

[Legbreaker]

I've got a missing rounds story, I think.

I see your story and raise you. :p

Just before Christmas 1994 I was part of an enemy party attached to 8RAR for a two week end of year exercise. The weather was clear and sunny with temps averaging around the low 40's C (100+ F). Perfect weather for running about the bush in full gear (if you're insane and want to die of dehydration and heat stroke).

Anyway, the first day or two were spent on the range - usual small arms, grenades, etc. While we were on the grenade range someone in my section kicked something in the grass, reached down and pulled out an F88 Steyr AUG. A few questions later and it was confirmed everyone still had their weapons in hand...
Seems somebody in a unit which had been through the area previously had been somewhat lax with their issued equipment. I'm guessing at least one head rolled over that little slip up, probably more - we never did find out what happened after it was handed to the QM.

[aspqrz]

See you and raise you.

I did my tour with Sydney University Regiment 1974-75 and, back then, there were still CMF NCOs and Officers (it was an Officer Training unit, at least theoretically) who had been in it since before the (effective) end of Conscription in 1972 when the only way to be sure of a University deferment was to be in the CMF ('Citizen Military Forces' back then, now the Army Reserve).

Anyhoo, one time when the Signals Platoon was on a weekend Bivvie, one of the Sergeants was reminiscing about ... idiots? ... and regaled us with the story of the bivvie he was on when the announcement came through that conscription was dead.

Two of the other troopies, one an NCO (don't remember whether he was a Corporal or Sergeant), were so effing happy to not have to be in the effing army any more (and they weren't evidently even that polite!) they took their SLRs (Aussie made FN-FALs) by the slings, swung them around their heads, and threw them off the top of the very high hill they had just climbed.

Only to be informed by the (Regular Army) CSM with them that they had to find the damn things before anyone could go home ... took the rest of the day grubbing through the bush, it did :D

One was more or less intact, the other evidently had (from memory) either a cracked wooden casing around the barrel or a broken buttstock. The CSM took pity on them and they were listed as 'damaged in action' ...

Phil

[Legbreaker]

You call THAT a raise!? Pfft!

A few days later on the very same exercise, our enemy platoon was split into it's component sections, with one assigned to each of three companies (the remainder of the battalion had a very boring few weeks with NO contacts - even though they were told to expect them).

Anyway, the section that was probing the company which had dug in for defensive operations sent a patrol several miles out of the way so they could come at them from the rear - they never made it. While about as far from their own base camp as you could get (which just happened to be on the banks of the local river, just a few hundred metres from the beach where they were feasting on crabs, fish, etc - bastards!) they stumbled upon a rather well camouflaged and extensive marijuana plantation.

It was well known that the growers in the area were fiercely protective of their crops employing all sorts of booby traps and going heavily armed during their regular visits to water, etc their plants. The probing party consisted of four men with two SLR's and two sniper rifles, all with nothing more than blanks and their charming personalities.

Naturally the discovery was radioed in and their orders altered - they were told to sit and guard the plantation for the next 24 hours until the police could arrive and take over. Could have ended quite badly if the growers had shown up.

Although nobody will admit it, we've always believed there was less there after the 24 hours than when they arrived. Would not surprise me in the slightest, knowing them like I did...

[Rockwolf66]

Sounds like the Dopers around my home town.

Knew of one guy who was visiting the local redwoods as a tourist. he encountered a Squad of guys in camouflage and packing some heavy firepower. After chatting him up they warned him to stay on the trail for the next several miles. The Squad of guys was not the cops. The cops have actually found a couple of weapons stashes that have dozens of weapons including actual Assault Rifles and Machineguns.

[aspqrz]

We were on an Beach Assault (!) out the Heads to Patonga, when the Army still had Landing Craft (Middle Harbour? Long time ago) in Sydney and, being the HQ element of Signals Platoon, we were tasked to remain on the Beach while the Rifle Companies 'assaulted' inland along the ridge lines.

Come next morning, our Sergeant had the bright idea to send me and another Sig out to 'welcome' one of the returning parties with an ambush as they came down off the spur and towards the beach.

Being the enterprising sort (the other guy wasn't) I told him (both Privates, see, but he did as I asked) to remain behind a large boulder (the size of a 10 ton truck) where the trail came down off the ridge while I maneuvered around the side of the ridge, behind another large boulder, out of the line of sight ... with my cunning plan.

See, when the Rifle Company's Scouts came down the path, my mate took some pot shots at them (blanks, of course) and I could hear the 'Action: Front' calls ... and the, well, not very bright officer(s) in charge did exactly what I expected. They allowed all of their troops (the 'Company' would have been maybe a Platoon and half, possibly two, in actual strength) to bunch up at the front and immediate sides along the ridge ... me?

I was 30-40 meters along the ridge line and up the side (difficult going) through the bush and then down along the track behind them ... when I came across the Command Group all fixated to the front, not a guard in sight.

If only I'd had a BFA ... as it was, I managed to get off four or five shots by manually recocking my SLR between each one (as you had to, sans BFA) ... I reckon I notionally killed or wounded a lot of them.

They were NOT impressed.

I heard mutterings and complaints that my Sergeant had not been 'playing fair' ... which I rather thought was the whole point of the exercise? Silly me! :D

I stayed with Sig Platoon ... no way was I having a bar of the genii leading the Rifle Companies!

(Not that HQ Company was all that much better ... at least, on a logistics and organisational level [maybe it was the Junior Officers, dunno, could have been the whole thing was a clusterfuck] ... the expectation that we would have been ready for deployment in 90 days after mobilisation was laughable).

Phil

[Legbreaker]

I have a similar story to that actually.

It was a JNCO course and I was once again enemy during the practical exercise on tactics. Two of us would head off and find hiding places along the path they were to take and when we judged it to be the right time, open up on them.

After probably half a dozen contacts with the two of us usually taking out maybe a third of them each time, we set ourselves up amongst some fallen logs surrounded by bushes and tall grass (maybe 4 feet high). As usual we initiated the contact and they formed up and assaulted our position.

This time though when they came close I stopped firing and let them go past - they'd stopped getting up and running at that point and were just crawling. Of course in the grass they could barely see the muzzle of their rifle, let alone the man either side so they didn't detect me.

Once they were a few metres past, I stood up and started shooting again. I took out every last one of them while the DS stood there laughing his arse off. The "good guys" didn't have a clue what had just happened to them until the DS (still laughing) debriefed them a few minutes later.

[.45cultist]

Sounds like the Dopers around my home town.

Knew of one guy who was visiting the local redwoods as a tourist. he encountered a Squad of guys in camouflage and packing some heavy firepower. After chatting him up they warned him to stay on the trail for the next several miles. The Squad of guys was not the cops. The cops have actually found a couple of weapons stashes that have dozens of weapons including actual Assault Rifles and Machineguns.

In the '80's, several U.S. park rangers were trained by army rangers to tackle the farms in the parks. I guess they didn't have a SWAT school, they usually went to FLETC. I just remember the news blurb was "Rangers got to Ranger School" and showed the rangers rappelling from a UH1H.

[WallShadow]

Also remember that certain "training facilities" are included in Continuity Of Government (hereafter COG) planning. In PA, we have Ft. Indiantown Gap (the GAP to NG soldiers). It contains a large munitions dump (enough ammo for the 28th Division INCLUDING artillery and AT munitions) with at least a couple of MILLION rounds small arms ammo. This ammo is SPECIFICALLY for a COG scenario.
(snip)
Then you have the AMSA (Army Maintenance & Support Assistance) depots. There are half a dozen in PA alone. These centers provide technical support (mechanics, admin, and armorers) for up to a dozen reserve or NG units (generally company sized units) and hold stores of weapons, equipment, vehicles, fuel and at least enough small arms ammo (and spare parts) to give every company they serve "one loadout" of rifle and pistol ammo in case of a disaster. The one we have at the Keystone Ordinance Training Center also has a million gallons of fuel in its storage tanks. AMSA Depots are the NG's first line of supply in a disaster. They would be a key resource in the early stages of any NG "call-out."

The Gap stash would give the existing government of PA quite an advantage, although a convoy from the Gap to Harrisburg might be an adventure in itself.

And if my info is correct, the Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located out near Johnstown, a hotly contested region in Allegheny Uprising.

[Legbreaker]

And if my info is correct, the Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located out near Johnstown, a hotly contested region in Allegheny Uprising.

However, by the time of T2K, most, if not all these stashes would be virtually empty. There's been several wars going on for several years in different parts of the world. The US alone is engaged in Europe, the Middle East, Korea, Alaska, and against Mexico, not to mention the various civil defence issues the military has had to deal with. Five theatres of high intensity conflict means ammo stocks are getting burnt through many times faster than industry can replace them. Wouldn't surprise me if the government had put out a call to the general population in mid 1997 onwards for donations of 5.56/.223, 7.62/.308, 9mm and .45 ammo.
We know most rounds used in Europe by mid 2000 are reloads, with 1 reload having the same value as 10 empties. If that's the case, how many factory loads are going to be left in storehouses?

[swaghauler]

The Gap stash would give the existing government of PA quite an advantage, although a convoy from the Gap to Harrisburg might be an adventure in itself.

And if my info is correct, the Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located out near Johnstown, a hotly contested region in Allegheny Uprising.

The Gap is only about 20 miles or so outside of Harrisburg very close to Hersey PA (yes, where Hersey chocolates are made). It is also the location of the Air National Guard's C130 wing. It is also used extensively by the PA State Police and the Capitol Police (of Harrisburg, NOT Washington) for training (including SWAT training).

Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located just south of PA State Route 285 about 5 miles East of the town of Conneaut Lake PA and about 1 mile south of the town of Geneva PA. It is about 5 miles west of PA RT19 and 5 miles east of RT322 West. Johnstown is 140 miles southeast of The Ordinance. Johnstown is actually closer to The Gap than us. Allegheny Uprising wasn't completely accurate. For instance, The actual Allegheny Forest is north of I80 (way north) and sits astride PA State Route 6.
While the "foothills" of the Allegheny's actually start in the Laurel Highlands southeast of Pittsburgh and north of Johnstown, they stretch north into New York. The highest peaks center around Boot Jack Summit outside of Ridgeway PA 120 miles north of Pittsburgh.
I have spent 10 years driving armored cars and flatbeds (pipe) around "The Forest" and I can tell you that if you don't "belong" there, the locals WILL POSE A GRAVE THREAT TO YOU during a disaster. Population density in the "PA WILDS" as the northern counties bordering NY State are called is very low. The people who live there are farmers, coal miners, oil well "roughnecks" and lumberjacks. They are all basically "preppers" because they live in an area that gets 10 feet of snow and -22F temps in the winter and has a police response time that stretches into hours at times. To call my "cousins" (I live 40 miles SW of The Forest) "Rednecks" would be an understatement.

[Rockwolf66]

In the '80's, several U.S. park rangers were trained by army rangers to tackle the farms in the parks. I guess they didn't have a SWAT school, they usually went to FLETC. I just remember the news blurb was "Rangers got to Ranger School" and showed the rangers rappelling from a UH1H.
I grew up smack dab in the middle of the Emerald Triangle. I've known some growers there since I was pre-school age. Some of them are ok people growing for themselves and their friends. Others who I have met in that trade need two to the base of the skull. I'm actually glad that the family member who was an LEO in that region worked boats and not the "war in the woods". It seems that when some of the growers got back from Vietnam they brought all the VC tricks they could back with them.

[.45cultist]

I grew up smack dab in the middle of the Emerald Triangle. I've known some growers there since I was pre-school age. Some of them are ok people growing for themselves and their friends. Others who I have met in that trade need two to the base of the skull. I'm actually glad that the family member who was an LEO in that region worked boats and not the "war in the woods". It seems that when some of the growers got back from Vietnam they brought all the VC tricks they could back with them.

The old news article showed coffee can mines and eye level fish hooks at one raided farm.

[Raellus]

However, by the time of T2K, most, if not all these stashes would be virtually empty. There's been several wars going on for several years in different parts of the world. The US alone is engaged in Europe, the Middle East, Korea, Alaska, and against Mexico, not to mention the various civil defence issues the military has had to deal with. Five theatres of high intensity conflict means ammo stocks are getting burnt through many times faster than industry can replace them. Wouldn't surprise me if the government had put out a call to the general population in mid 1997 onwards for donations of 5.56/.223, 7.62/.308, 9mm and .45 ammo.
We know most rounds used in Europe by mid 2000 are reloads, with 1 reload having the same value as 10 empties. If that's the case, how many factory loads are going to be left in storehouses?

I'm with Leg on this one. During WWII, the U.S. Army, despite the U.S.A. having a much higher manufacturing capacity than it does currently (or during the 1980s or '90s, for that matter), experienced several ammunition shortages during its campaigns in the ETO. Mostly, these were related to transportation issues, but I don't see a much rosier picture in a WWIII situation. I just don't think the U.S., c.1997, would have had the ammunition manufacturing capacity to supply active fronts in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and in CONUS, not to mention its allies.

[swaghauler]

I'm with Leg on this one. During WWII, the U.S. Army, despite the U.S.A. having a much higher manufacturing capacity than it does currently (or during the 1980s or '90s, for that matter), experienced several ammunition shortages during its campaigns in the ETO. Mostly, these were related to transportation issues, but I don't see a much rosier picture in a WWIII situation. I just don't think the U.S., c.1997, would have had the ammunition manufacturing capacity to supply active fronts in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and in CONUS, not to mention its allies.

I believe Aspqrz was asking about ammo supply in the context of a Biohazard/war-z type scenario, not a Twilight2000 scenario. I believe his post was an investigation into where one would get ammo from if the supply chain and or command structure was suddenly severed during such a "disaster." This is why I have singled out NG/Reserve logistics sites (the first line of support in a disaster) as well as where citizens might acquire said ammo.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, I think post nuke, the vast majority of ammo resupply won't be coming from rear areas but will be "in house" reloads and captured from enemy stockpiles (such as they are).
It's possible rear area troops would have little to no ammo, and some may be re-equipped with civilian weapons using non-military calibres, some may even have no firearms at all and may instead have to resort to bows and crossbows (in rare instances).

In the originally postulated scenario, ammo production would likely completely cease. Once the already manufactured supplies run out, which may not take very long if they're not being replenished, soldiers and civilians alike will have to start getting inventive. Muscle powered projectiles (bows, slings, spears, etc) and melee weapons would take on a greater importance, with the few rounds left being reserved for the truly life threatening situations. Any remaining ammo stockpiles (also food and other life sustaining supplies) would be heavily fought over until they ran out.

This situation would be the same the world over.

[Rockwolf66]

The old news article showed coffee can mines and eye level fish hooks at one raided farm.

Heard of those along with Shotgun shell booby traps designed to make opening gates or cutting down plants a hazardous experience.

The funny thing about most Criminal weapons caches I've heard of is that they sometimes have dozens of firearms but they don't have a lot of ammunition. It's as iff they are going more for looks than effectiveness.

[WallShadow]

<SNIP>
Allegheny Uprising wasn't completely accurate. For instance, The actual Allegheny Forest is north of I80 (way north) and sits astride PA State Route 6.
While the "foothills" of the Allegheny's actually start in the Laurel Highlands southeast of Pittsburgh and north of Johnstown, they stretch north into New York. The highest peaks center around Boot Jack Summit outside of Ridgeway PA 120 miles north of Pittsburgh.
I have spent 10 years driving armored cars and flatbeds (pipe) around "The Forest" and I can tell you that if you don't "belong" there, the locals WILL POSE A GRAVE THREAT TO YOU during a disaster. Population density in the "PA WILDS" as the northern counties bordering NY State are called is very low. The people who live there are farmers, coal miners, oil well "roughnecks" and lumberjacks. They are all basically "preppers" because they live in an area that gets 10 feet of snow and -22F temps in the winter and has a police response time that stretches into hours at times. To call my "cousins" (I live 40 miles SW of The Forest) "Rednecks" would be an understatement.
Swaghauler, if you think the folk west of the Kittatinny Mountain Ridge by the PA turnpike are any more civilized and warm and open-armed than your northern tier "God's Country" kin, you are quite wrong. The motto of the Pennsyltuckians is "Yew ain't fr'm 'round 'chere, ere ya?" :confused: followed quickly by "We don' lak yer kind 'round 'chere.":mad: If you get a third warning, it might be the racking of a shotgun slide or the clack of a hunting rifle bolt. Or the roar of a chainsaw wielded by a guy in a poorly-cured human-face-skin-leather mask.:D

I still find it odd that Letterkenny Army Depot in Franklin County (just east of the Kittatinny Mountain) hasn't been addressed as either part of an adventure or as part of a reconstruction/continuity of gov't backstory?

They've been doing vehicle and M109 SPH refurbishments, missile electronics refits, ammunition disposal and storage, and for a while they had huge oil-storage-tank shaped mothball facilities for vehicles that were part of a strategic reserve--refurbished older models, mostly trucks and jeeps and such, perhaps others, drained of fluids and kept in a climate-controlled environment pending need.
For a while, if not currently, they were storing arms and ammo captured in operations, like AK-47s and such, in the same type of igloos that the slated-to-be-destroyed munitions are prior to detonation or recycling. Quote the History of Letterkenney Army Depot: "In 1990, Letterkenny was selected as the single processing and storage location for all weapons captured during the 1990 invasion of Panama, Operation Just Cause." Not a bad thing to find to help arm the local militias against marauders or New American actions (which may be the same thing). The Depot also has loads of acreage that is opened to local hunters in hunting season, so with appropriate management and security, sharecrops and harvested wildlife may keep the operations of the depot going with something like the food chits of Krakov's city government used to feed the guarding troops and support the civilian technicians.

[ArmySGT.]

Sierra Army Depot is smack in the middle of "State of Jefferson" country.

There is a lot of Nam Vets in the Siskiyou range and NorCal growing pot and living off grid. That area chosen because there are no major targets and it isn't downwind of any major targets either.... the Oregon/California border area specifically.

State of Jefferson supporters want a 51st State carved from Southern Oregon, Northern California, with some of Nevada for good measure.

[WallShadow]

Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located just south of PA State Route 285 about 5 miles East of the town of Conneaut Lake PA and about 1 mile south of the town of Geneva PA. It is about 5 miles west of PA RT19 and 5 miles east of RT322 West.

Speaking of ammo and Conneaut Lake, there is company called Combined Tactical Systems, Inc, in Jamestown, PA, just near the southern point of the lake. They produce non-lethal rounds for 37/38mm and 40mm launchers. Now while teargas and smoke rounds may be useful, one wonders how hard it would be for them to reverse-engineer HE or shotgun/flechette rounds for a M79 or M203?

[swaghauler]

Combined Tactical also makes various "flash bangs" including the M84 (the Army's single stage "flash bang" with a 3-second fuse), pepper sprays, incendiaries (thermite), 12 & 20 gauge baton & "sock" rounds, and "vomit gas."
"Less Lethals" are very versatile and the other munitions (especially "flash bangs") would be in high demand.

[swaghauler]

Swaghauler, if you think the folk west of the Kittatinny Mountain Ridge by the PA turnpike are any more civilized and warm and open-armed than your northern tier "God's Country" kin, you are quite wrong. The motto of the Pennsyltuckians is "Yew ain't fr'm 'round 'chere, ere ya?" :confused: followed quickly by "We don' lak yer kind 'round 'chere.":mad: If you get a third warning, it might be the racking of a shotgun slide or the clack of a hunting rifle bolt. Or the roar of a chainsaw wielded by a guy in a poorly-cured human-face-skin-leather mask.:D

I still find it odd that Letterkenny Army Depot in Franklin County (just east of the Kittatinny Mountain) hasn't been addressed as either part of an adventure or as part of a reconstruction/continuity of gov't backstory?

They've been doing vehicle and M109 SPH refurbishments, missile electronics refits, ammunition disposal and storage, and for a while they had huge oil-storage-tank shaped mothball facilities for vehicles that were part of a strategic reserve--refurbished older models, mostly trucks and jeeps and such, perhaps others, drained of fluids and kept in a climate-controlled environment pending need.
For a while, if not currently, they were storing arms and ammo captured in operations, like AK-47s and such, in the same type of igloos that the slated-to-be-destroyed munitions are prior to detonation or recycling. Quote the History of Letterkenney Army Depot: "In 1990, Letterkenny was selected as the single processing and storage location for all weapons captured during the 1990 invasion of Panama, Operation Just Cause." Not a bad thing to find to help arm the local militias against marauders or New American actions (which may be the same thing). The Depot also has loads of acreage that is opened to local hunters in hunting season, so with appropriate management and security, sharecrops and harvested wildlife may keep the operations of the depot going with something like the food chits of Krakov's city government used to feed the guarding troops and support the civilian technicians.

About five years ago, a 15-year-old thug escaped from Vision Quest and stole a horse. He was caught by at least 6 people (from footprints found at the scene) and promptly HUNG. The case remains unsolved today because there is no local law enforcement and the locals refuse to cooperate with the State Police. Another gentleman who was the center of an oil lease fraud investigation was doused with gasoline and set alight. This was in broad daylight in a shopping center and once again there were no witnesses. I won't argue (and really do believe) that those on The Ridge are as "clannish" as The Wilds, but I don't remember any stories like that from The Ridge.

As for Letterkenny Army Depot, It is, in fact, an AMSA sight. All of the major military installations serve as AMSA sites for any NG or Reserve units in their immediate vicinity. Letterkenny also just happens to serve the regular army as well. I have no doubt it would be the seat of power on The Ridge.
Another AMSA site in PA would be Oakdale PA, Southwest of the Pittsburgh Airport. This is also the home of the 99th ARCOM, as well as the Commissary and PX for the NG and Reserves. It is a fairly large complex with a large amount of communications equipment for COG operations. Both complexes would be very important to local command and control in their respective regions.

One thing that would give The Wilds an advantage over other areas in the Allegheny Region is Kinzua Dam north of Warren (80 megawatts of hydro-electric power) in combination with United Refining Inc's refineries in Warren PA, Bradford PA, and off of RT46 South of Elgin PA. They are too far inland for small sub launched nukes and no ICBMs were listed as hitting the area. Electricity AND at least 2 million gallons a day of oil production capacity (including the crude) and at least 50 million gallons of bulk storage would make for a powerful asset for whatever force controls it. Limited heavy access (only 4 more than 10-ton weight limit roads entering the region) would also make it very defensible.

[WallShadow]

Hey Swag, while not an ammo stockpile, you have the USS Niagara docked in Erie. A nice little brig that could be useful in maintaining law and justice on Lake Erie. Or be a splendid little buccaneer ship. :cool:

[swaghauler]

Hey Swag, while not an ammo stockpile, you have the USS Niagara docked in Erie. A nice little brig that could be useful in maintaining law and justice on Lake Erie. Or be a splendid little buccaneer ship. :cool:

And ALL of her guns are functional. I volunteered to help to National Guard test her guns after the rebuild. The "hull section" in the museum is, IN FACT, the handiwork of Niagra's guns. She is also FULL Coast Guard certified for open water. She would be a powerful Naval unit but her habitability simply SUCKS. as primitive as camping. I still wouldn't mess with ANY of the 20 black powder cannon in the Museum's possession.

[WallShadow]

And ALL of her guns are functional. I volunteered to help to National Guard test her guns after the rebuild. The "hull section" in the museum is, IN FACT, the handiwork of Niagra's guns. She is also FULL Coast Guard certified for open water. She would be a powerful Naval unit but her habitability simply SUCKS. as primitive as camping. I still wouldn't mess with ANY of the 20 black powder cannon in the Museum's possession.
Perhaps, but she would make a great pattern, and her plan might be scaled up to a sloop,perhaps armed with Davis guns or recoilless rifles, if black powder gun tubes are not available.

[swaghauler]

Perhaps, but she would make a great pattern, and her plan might be scaled up to a sloop,perhaps armed with Davis guns or recoilless rifles, if black powder gun tubes are not available.

No need for this. Just go to BoatTrader.com and do a search for sailboats and sailing Catamarans in the 40 foot to 150-foot range. There are THOUSANDS of them in Aisa, The Mediterranean, The Carribean, Europe, and both North and South America.

These boats have modern engines, electronics, water desalinization (on larger boats), and are actually very comfortable to live aboard. Even the smaller 26ft to 40ft models can withstand around 250 kg of weapons mountings and much larger boats could mount weights of up to 2 tons. They are every bit as durable as wooden boats and most sailboats under 30ft are trailerable with a typical pickup.

Do a google search for them on the manufacturer's websites and you can even find deck plans to use in your games.

[.45cultist]

I'm with Leg on this one. During WWII, the U.S. Army, despite the U.S.A. having a much higher manufacturing capacity than it does currently (or during the 1980s or '90s, for that matter), experienced several ammunition shortages during its campaigns in the ETO. Mostly, these were related to transportation issues, but I don't see a much rosier picture in a WWIII situation. I just don't think the U.S., c.1997, would have had the ammunition manufacturing capacity to supply active fronts in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and in CONUS, not to mention its allies.

I have a book, "The Ammunition Encyclopedia", that has the 2011 amount of commercial and arsenal ammo in units of millions of rounds. The U.S. at 85% capacity was 3,400 units. The Russian Fed, China were at 2,200 units. For T2K, the disruption of trade and transport will kill this more than nukes. For a Biohazard or zombie scenario, my PC's can check out Lake City. The culled but SAAMI spec ammo alone would keep dozens of enclaves well supplied.

[bobcat]

there isn't much modern NATO ammo in them but is anyone going to try to calculate the old CD stockpiles of WW2 surplus ammo/weapons? most of these would probably be lost to time but when everyone else is using worn out M16's and tired reloaded brass, it would easily tip the balance in favor of whoever dug up a bunker filled with boxes of M1 rifles, M1 carbines, Grease guns, BARs, M2 .50's and enough ammo for them to stage a major offensive.

[.45cultist]

I know a guy who was dismantling those caches during Clinton's tenure. I'll ask for rough amounts.

[WallShadow]

I know a guy who was dismantling those caches during Clinton's tenure. I'll ask for rough amounts.

Not only amounts, but locations and reasons for their locations, as well as who would have known/had access to them? Pleeeeease???

[.45cultist]

Not only amounts, but locations and reasons for their locations, as well as who would have known/had access to them? Pleeeeease???

I do remember that, NYC, in among all the tunnels. I think most East Coast cities had extensive WWII surplus stockpiles. Since this was during the Clinton era, the stockpiles were scrapped. Using "Armies of the Night", one could put it in a "Dement" nest.

[CDAT]

I know a guy who was dismantling those caches during Clinton's tenure. I'll ask for rough amounts.

I can not speak for any specific caches, but I know one of the jobs that we had as EOD was to dispose of unserviceable munitions, they gave us lots of stuff that we no longer had a weapons platform to use for our training, and when we had time we would dispose of other stuff as well. Things like Navy 8" to 16" shells, Army 105mm tank rounds, and 4.2" mortar bombs, they also brought out truck loads of small arms for us to burn. It was delivered to us as unserviceable, but they did not say why or where it came from. So it is your best guess where it came from.

PS - This was during the Bush II, and Obama years so in TW2000 time there would still be stuff left, as we were still getting rid of it 12+ years latter.

[WallShadow]

I do remember that, NYC, in among all the tunnels. I think most East Coast cities had extensive WWII surplus stockpiles. Since this was during the Clinton era, the stockpiles were scrapped. Using "Armies of the Night", one could put it in a "Dement" nest.
As in "Did that big ugly "dement" really :cool:have a war-club made out of a BAR, or was I hallucinating????"

[aspqrz]

No need for this. Just go to BoatTrader.com and do a search for sailboats and sailing Catamarans in the 40 foot to 150-foot range. There are THOUSANDS of them in Aisa, The Mediterranean, The Carribean, Europe, and both North and South America.

These boats have modern engines, electronics, water desalinization (on larger boats), and are actually very comfortable to live aboard. Even the smaller 26ft to 40ft models can withstand around 250 kg of weapons mountings and much larger boats could mount weights of up to 2 tons. They are every bit as durable as wooden boats and most sailboats under 30ft are trailerable with a typical pickup.

Do a google search for them on the manufacturer's websites and you can even find deck plans to use in your games.

They can take the weight, sure, but can they take the stress of the weapons actually being fired ... now, this is from something in Alistair Maclean's 'The Golden Rendevous' so it may not be entirely correct, but I would expect it's not complete BS ... in that there are comments to the effect that the pirates are mounting something almost equivalent to a 3.7" gun in the Merchie ... and the First Officer thinks/comments that they would be lucky to get off more than a couple of shots before the deck plates buckled, rendering the mount (and the weapon) useless.

Now, this is from memory, and its more than 25 years since I read it last, and don't have a copy at hand any more, but I also STR that there was a comment to the effect that some Merchant Shipping Companies were paid (or subsidised) by HMG to put in reinforced hull sections on their ships so they could take heavier guns in an emergency ... I suspect that's no longer the case, and probably wouldn't have been by TW2K.

However, I would strongly suspect the bit about ruining the deck plating would still be true ... and how many people would know that in advance?

Any Navy/Merchant Navy/Coast Guard types have any inputs here?

Phil

[swaghauler]

They can take the weight, sure, but can they take the stress of the weapons actually being fired ... now, this is from something in Alistair Maclean's 'The Golden Rendevous' so it may not be entirely correct, but I would expect it's not complete BS ... in that there are comments to the effect that the pirates are mounting something almost equivalent to a 3.7" gun in the Merchie ... and the First Officer thinks/comments that they would be lucky to get off more than a couple of shots before the deck plates buckled, rendering the mount (and the weapon) useless.

Now, this is from memory, and its more than 25 years since I read it last, and don't have a copy at hand any more, but I also STR that there was a comment to the effect that some Merchant Shipping Companies were paid (or subsidised) by HMG to put in reinforced hull sections on their ships so they could take heavier guns in an emergency ... I suspect that's no longer the case, and probably wouldn't have been by TW2K.

However, I would strongly suspect the bit about ruining the deck plating would still be true ... and how many people would know that in advance?

Any Navy/Merchant Navy/Coast Guard types have any inputs here?

Phil

No one is going to be putting anything larger than a manually powered 20mm on any sailboat and the deck will easily withstand the recoil of a weapon like this (many Navy patrol boats are RIBS...fiberglass inner hulls with rubberized outer "inflation rings" and they mount similar weaponry). Most pirates using the readily available "private sector" sailing fleet are going to be limited to boats in the 35ft to 60ft range as these are the most common. These vessels will have basically unlimited endurance but will only accommodate 6 people comfortably. Small arms will be the predominate weapon type simply based on space and availability. Large pirate groups will probably "flotilla" (form fleets) in multiple boats and maneuver as "squadrons" in battle. The basic catamaran (my first choice) would also have the advantage of a shoal draft, allowing cats to "run into or through" the shallows while deeper draft monohulls would have to go around most shoals. Cats also have more storage space on board the vessel.

Many of the larger "commercial" fishing vessels will suffer the exact same fate as "commercial shipping," ie being grounded for lack of fuel. These vessels could mount smaller AT or larger AA guns but there wouldn't enough fuel to use them. A typical fishing vessel will use about 1 liter per kilometer traveled. That's a conservative estimate too. Any larger vessel in use will probably be used as a "mothership" and send out smaller RIBS or sailboats as an "attack force," in order to both preserve the larger vessel and because most larger vessels lack the speed to run down even a small sailboat.

Antique ships like the Brig Niagra being mentioned above DO NOT MOUNT their armament. The cannon can roll back upon firing and use "stop lines" made of heavy bull rope to arrest their movement. Those ships would be a powerful asset to a government due to their firepower (which is easily resupplied by any chemist) and independence from fossil fuels. These ships are rare, however.

[CDAT]

They can take the weight, sure, but can they take the stress of the weapons actually being fired ... now, this is from something in Alistair Maclean's 'The Golden Rendevous' so it may not be entirely correct, but I would expect it's not complete BS ... in that there are comments to the effect that the pirates are mounting something almost equivalent to a 3.7" gun in the Merchie ... and the First Officer thinks/comments that they would be lucky to get off more than a couple of shots before the deck plates buckled, rendering the mount (and the weapon) useless.

Now, this is from memory, and its more than 25 years since I read it last, and don't have a copy at hand any more, but I also STR that there was a comment to the effect that some Merchant Shipping Companies were paid (or subsidised) by HMG to put in reinforced hull sections on their ships so they could take heavier guns in an emergency ... I suspect that's no longer the case, and probably wouldn't have been by TW2K.

However, I would strongly suspect the bit about ruining the deck plating would still be true ... and how many people would know that in advance?

Any Navy/Merchant Navy/Coast Guard types have any inputs here?

Phil

No idea about ships/boats, but in 03 we welded mounts for our heavy weapons onto our dump trucks, also had home made steel boxes that we put in the back of the HUMMVE's with posts to mount the heavy weapons. On the dump trucks it worked fine for any of the heavy weapons we had (M2HB, Mk. 19, and/or M240B) on the HUMMVE's the .50 was a bit scary they never broke or even bent but the did shake all over the place. I have no idea what the hardness of the steel was, but I am guessing it was mild. It was just stuff we found around and used.

[aspqrz]

No idea about ships/boats, but in 03 we welded mounts for our heavy weapons onto our dump trucks, also had home made steel boxes that we put in the back of the HUMMVE's with posts to mount the heavy weapons. On the dump trucks it worked fine for any of the heavy weapons we had (M2HB, Mk. 19, and/or M240B) on the HUMMVE's the .50 was a bit scary they never broke or even bent but the did shake all over the place. I have no idea what the hardness of the steel was, but I am guessing it was mild. It was just stuff we found around and used.

I do know, however, that Armoured Cars (the sort used to collect/carry Cash from/to Banks etc.), even with beefed up suspension, have a drastically reduced service life compared to the base model truck or van they are based on - nothing about their chassis (heck, do they even have a chassis these days?), engine, diff/gear box etc. is designed to carry that extra weight and it evidently shows.

For Dump Trucks, sure, no probs ... they're build to haul extra weight anyway. For Humvees, well, it would depend on whether any additional armour or weapons overload the frame etc.

For Technicals and other converted, but basically civilian, vehicles - same problems as the commercial 'Armoured Cars', I would guess.

Phil

[aspqrz]

No one is going to be putting anything larger than a manually powered 20mm on any sailboat and the deck will easily withstand the recoil of a weapon like this (many Navy patrol boats are RIBS...fiberglass inner hulls with rubberized outer "inflation rings" and they mount similar weaponry).

I was referring to the OP who opined that the larger craft (he mentioned ones up to 150') could mount weaponry up to a couple of tons.

Sure, if it's all in the form of field or pintle mount 20mms ... heck, probably even 25mms ... but no way will they mount a single weapon of that weight (or even two of half that weight) without the problem noted ... unless someone knows something neither of us seem to?

(Aside: Maybe they could mount Harpoon or similar Missile Boxes ... not much recoil on them, presumable ... as long as there's some way of minimising any effect from the rocket exhaust. But at the point where you're desperate enough to be using these sorts of civvie craft, what's the chance of any Harpoons being still around ... given that, even during the Cold War, my understanding is that there were never enough missiles for each available launcher/platform to carry one apiece at the same time, never mind reloads).

Phil

[dragoon500ly]

They can take the weight, sure, but can they take the stress of the weapons actually being fired ... now, this is from something in Alistair Maclean's 'The Golden Rendevous' so it may not be entirely correct, but I would expect it's not complete BS ... in that there are comments to the effect that the pirates are mounting something almost equivalent to a 3.7" gun in the Merchie ... and the First Officer thinks/comments that they would be lucky to get off more than a couple of shots before the deck plates buckled, rendering the mount (and the weapon) useless.

Now, this is from memory, and its more than 25 years since I read it last, and don't have a copy at hand any more, but I also STR that there was a comment to the effect that some Merchant Shipping Companies were paid (or subsidised) by HMG to put in reinforced hull sections on their ships so they could take heavier guns in an emergency ... I suspect that's no longer the case, and probably wouldn't have been by TW2K.

However, I would strongly suspect the bit about ruining the deck plating would still be true ... and how many people would know that in advance?

Any Navy/Merchant Navy/Coast Guard types have any inputs here?

Phil

British built merchant hulls up to the late 50s were required to have reinforced platforms, fore and aft to take up to 4-inch (102mm), this included both thicker deck plates as well as the necessary reinforcing braces to absorb the recoil. The deck plates were pre-drilled to accept various gun carriages, allowing for a variety of different marks to be installed. I have heard that this practice was continued into the 70s, built I have not been able to confirm this.

[swaghauler]

I was referring to the OP who opined that the larger craft (he mentioned ones up to 150') could mount weaponry up to a couple of tons.

Sure, if it's all in the form of field or pintle mount 20mms ... heck, probably even 25mms ... but no way will they mount a single weapon of that weight (or even two of half that weight) without the problem noted ... unless someone knows something neither of us seem to?

(Aside: Maybe they could mount Harpoon or similar Missile Boxes ... not much recoil on them, presumable ... as long as there's some way of minimising any effect from the rocket exhaust. But at the point where you're desperate enough to be using these sorts of civvie craft, what's the chance of any Harpoons being still around ... given that, even during the Cold War, my understanding is that there were never enough missiles for each available launcher/platform to carry one apiece at the same time, never mind reloads).

Phil
Since I am BOTH the "original poster" AND the person who replied the second time, I'll answer again, especially since I'm the owner of a sailboat and know EXACTLY what I was talking about in my earlier post.

We were discussing arming a SAILING ship to either protect one's self from pirates or for war using available equipment. The weight requirements were for mounting "old school" armaments that could be fabricated or commandeered for a sailboat, NOT a freighter or tramp steamer (which seems to be what you were referring to).
A centerline gun mount WILL NOT WORK on a modern sailboat. This is because the Bermuda Rig (with its angled head sail and angled main sails which will often overlap) REQUIRES a certain size of head sail (depending on wind conditions) in order to "balance the helm" (maintain control and enhance handling) at speed. ANY centerline gun mount would interfere with the movement of the head sail and induce "weather helm" during maneuvering.

The weight limits I posted were for "old school" black powder cannons and newer reproductions that could be lifted from museums or collectors and mounted on the decks EXACTLY like they were in the age of sail...on free rolling carriages that were restrained by rope "recoil arrest" & "run out" assemblies. Because these guns can "roll back" upon recoil, they WOULD NOT transfer that recoil into the deck plates (as demonstrated by the very small ships mounting such guns during the Age of Sail). Let's take the Brigg Niagara (which WallShadow and I were discussing at the time) as a "for instance..."
She is 110 feet long and mounts 18 32 pounder Carronades (at 900kg each) and 2 12 pounders (at 1500kg each) with NO DIFFICULTY in handling recoil. The ship is no more heavily built than say, PlayStation II (a 125ft modern Catamaran) in its deck area. PlayStation II would have NO DIFFICULTY mounting Niagara's weapons fit on her decks.

The only thing I WOULD do is mount the recoil ropes to the cleats or stay mounts (NOT THE RAILINGS) to prevent a cannon from crossing the deck and heading for "Davey Jone's Locker" through the opposite side railing during firing. Another thing you might want to do to a modern sailboat is to glue some plywood to the deck to prevent gouging up the fiberglass too much.
Otherwise, there is no reason a modern sailboat couldn't mount old school cannon on deck.

Other "real world" examples of "recreational vessels" pressed into service exist in our world right now. Just look at Iran's speedboats in The Gulf. They are "off the rack" Sea Rays complete with THE SAME commercial Raytheon radar/navigation suite that Sea Ray offers to boaters all around the world upgunned with remote fired RPGs (in racks of 8), 2 torpedo tubes, or (more recently) quad wire guided AT missile launchers on the foredeck and HMGs or Autocannon in a rear AA mount. They even have Sea Ray's commercial bow mounted spotlight. These boats are functionally IDENTICAL, except for the weapons of course, to the same boats rich people use in the Med, Bahamas, or Florida. These boats were so effective at causing harm to shipping during the Iran-Iraq war that the US Navy began escorting merchant ships through the Straits of Hormuz. They work.

[swaghauler]

I do know, however, that Armoured Cars (the sort used to collect/carry Cash from/to Banks etc.), even with beefed up suspension, have a drastically reduced service life compared to the base model truck or van they are based on - nothing about their chassis (heck, do they even have a chassis these days?), engine, diff/gear box etc. is designed to carry that extra weight and it evidently shows.

For Dump Trucks, sure, no probs ... they're build to haul extra weight anyway. For Humvees, well, it would depend on whether any additional armour or weapons overload the frame etc.

For Technicals and other converted, but basically civilian, vehicles - same problems as the commercial 'Armoured Cars', I would guess.

Phil

In America, this depends on the type of Armored Car. There are three general types of Armored Car in production... The Light, GP (for general purpose) and Heavy. All the major players in the US Commercial Armored Car market (Lenco in Canada, Texas Armoring, MCT, and Supreme when I worked them) offer all three levels.

The Light Armored Car: These are built on a Dodge, Chevy or Ford 1-Ton van or truck chassis and are in fact too light (and too small) to endure a long service. These are often armored with Kevlar panels to reduce weight and are either NIJ Level 2A, 2 (AV 1/2 in my game) or Level 3A (AV 1). These are designed to carry only 1 Ton of cargo and are OFTEN OVERLOADED (because coin boxes & bags weigh a lot). They average a life of about 7 years and 300,000 miles. The current "darling" of the "Light Weights" is the Sprinter Van in both single and double axle varieties. I HATE Sprinters! The low deck height is nice but they have a NARROW wheelbase (and width) coupled with a HIGH center of gravity (due to the stand-up interior). They EAT tires and brakes (and its no wonder with 13" tires and 10" brakes on a 1-Ton cargo van) and the 4 cylinder diesel sounds like it will blow up at any minute at highway speeds. Electrical issues also plague them (just like Dodge).

The General Purpose Truck: This truck is often referred to as The A-Body because that's what Brinks calls them (and therefore so does everyone else). The Dunbar Truck that rescued the wounded during the LA "44 Minute Shootout" was a second generation A-Body (5-speed auto, open layout). For those who would question the protection provided by Armored Cars... that truck "shrugged off" EVERY 7.62mm X 39 mm round fired at it (including the windows AND the run-flat tires). The truck in The Book of Eli was a gen 1 A-Body (5 or 6-speed manual).
The A-Body is Aluminum armored to NIJ Level 3 Rifle (AV 2 in my game) two axle truck (front and rear) built on THE EXACT SAME FRAME AS A US ARMY FIVE TON TRUCK (school buses use this frame as well). The truck uses hydraulic brakes with dual coil suspension and can carry 5000lbs (2.5 Tons) on a 26,000lb gross curb weight. Early models were 5-speed manuals but 5-speed automatics have prevailed since the 1990's. This truck comprises 95% of the US armored car fleet and is the largest truck in service that you DO NOT need a CDL to drive (you DO need a medical card though). The service life of these trucks (90%+ are diesel) is 500,000 miles or 6 years to "in frame overhaul" (a top engine rebuild) and 1,000,000 miles to complete rebuild.

The B-Body: These were just a CDL-B upgrade of the A-Body adding Air Ride Suspension and Brakes, increasing cargo load to 5 tons (10,000lbs) and, on occasion, stretching the body for increased volume of cargo. A fully loaded B-Body averages 52,000lbs Curb Weight. Several variants of this model are often "uparmored" to NIJ Level 4 (AV 4 in my game) and used as "Fed Trucks." Fed trucks haul money from the Fed to the Armored Car Company's Depot...this can amount to 10's of millions of dollars and requires added security to satisfy Lloyd's of London's (the only insurance company that insures armored cars) insurance requirements for the cargo's value. This was what we drove for a fed truck while I worked at Fidelity Armored.

Heavy Trucks: There is no pattern to these trucks except that they usually have 2 or 3 REAR AXLES and can go as heavy as 80,000lbs Curb weight. These trucks are built on AM General, Oshkosh, or MAC frames and can go for 1,000,000 miles just like an ordinary Semi Truck. This is what I drove at Great Lakes Armored in the 90's (complete with 10-speed manual).

As you can see, American armored cars are very "overbuilt." The issue is that the fleet nationwide was almost 7 years old when I retired in 2012.

[aspqrz]

In America, this depends on the type of Armored Car. There are three general types of Armored Car in production... The Light, GP (for general purpose) and Heavy. All the major players in the US Commercial Armored Car market (Lenco in Canada, Texas Armoring, MCT, and Supreme when I worked them) offer all three levels.

Ah. One should never assume :o

I was referring to Aussie models, which are not even close to the same standards, or weren't when I came across the original information ... and (dumb, I know), assumed it was the same for the US.

Phil

[.45cultist]

Since I am BOTH the "original poster" AND the person who replied the second time, I'll answer again, especially since I'm the owner of a sailboat and know EXACTLY what I was talking about in my earlier post.

We were discussing arming a SAILING ship to either protect one's self from pirates or for war using available equipment. The weight requirements were for mounting "old school" armaments that could be fabricated or commandeered for a sailboat, NOT a freighter or tramp steamer (which seems to be what you were referring to).
A centerline gun mount WILL NOT WORK on a modern sailboat. This is because the Bermuda Rig (with its angled head sail and angled main sails which will often overlap) REQUIRES a certain size of head sail (depending on wind conditions) in order to "balance the helm" (maintain control and enhance handling) at speed. ANY centerline gun mount would interfere with the movement of the head sail and induce "weather helm" during maneuvering.

The weight limits I posted were for "old school" black powder cannons and newer reproductions that could be lifted from museums or collectors and mounted on the decks EXACTLY like they were in the age of sail...on free rolling carriages that were restrained by rope "recoil arrest" & "run out" assemblies. Because these guns can "roll back" upon recoil, they WOULD NOT transfer that recoil into the deck plates (as demonstrated by the very small ships mounting such guns during the Age of Sail). Let's take the Brigg Niagara (which WallShadow and I were discussing at the time) as a "for instance..."
She is 110 feet long and mounts 18 32 pounder Carronades (at 900kg each) and 2 12 pounders (at 1500kg each) with NO DIFFICULTY in handling recoil. The ship is no more heavily built than say, PlayStation II (a 125ft modern Catamaran) in its deck area. PlayStation II would have NO DIFFICULTY mounting Niagara's weapons fit on her decks.

The only thing I WOULD do is mount the recoil ropes to the cleats or stay mounts (NOT THE RAILINGS) to prevent a cannon from crossing the deck and heading for "Davey Jone's Locker" through the opposite side railing during firing. Another thing you might want to do to a modern sailboat is to glue some plywood to the deck to prevent gouging up the fiberglass too much.
Otherwise, there is no reason a modern sailboat couldn't mount old school cannon on deck.

Other "real world" examples of "recreational vessels" pressed into service exist in our world right now. Just look at Iran's speedboats in The Gulf. They are "off the rack" Sea Rays complete with THE SAME commercial Raytheon radar/navigation suite that Sea Ray offers to boaters all around the world upgunned with remote fired RPGs (in racks of 8), 2 torpedo tubes, or (more recently) quad wire guided AT missile launchers on the foredeck and HMGs or Autocannon in a rear AA mount. They even have Sea Ray's commercial bow mounted spotlight. These boats are functionally IDENTICAL, except for the weapons of course, to the same boats rich people use in the Med, Bahamas, or Florida. These boats were so effective at causing harm to shipping during the Iran-Iraq war that the US Navy began escorting merchant ships through the Straits of Hormuz. They work.

Need to note this for "Gateway".

[unkated]

The weight limits I posted were for "old school" black powder cannons and newer reproductions that could be lifted from museums or collectors and mounted on the decks EXACTLY like they were in the age of sail...on free rolling carriages that were restrained by rope "recoil arrest" & "run out" assemblies. Because these guns can "roll back" upon recoil, they WOULD NOT transfer that recoil into the deck plates (as demonstrated by the very small ships mounting such guns during the Age of Sail). Let's take the Brigg Niagara (which WallShadow and I were discussing at the time) as a "for instance..."

She is 110 feet long and mounts 18 32 pounder Carronades (at 900kg each) and 2 12 pounders (at 1500kg each) with NO DIFFICULTY in handling recoil.

The ship is no more heavily built than say, PlayStation II (a 125ft modern Catamaran) in its deck area. PlayStation II would have NO DIFFICULTY mounting Niagara's weapons fit on her decks.


Incorrect. Age of Sail warships (actually, until the mid 1840s any ship, as most ships heading for international waters were built to be equipped with some armament) were designed to be equipped decks were reinforced with scantlings and knees preciesly to support the down thrust from cannon recoil - several hundred pounds moving rapidly and absolutley some of it is pushing down.

Modern sailing vessels, especially pleasure craft are absolutely NOT made to support that kind of peak pressure on a deck. Neither are their sides built with the kind (and frequency) of ribs for breach lines to anchor from; something like a 4-lbr cannon (much less a 6, 12 or 24-lbr) would tear the cleats or eyes out of the vessel when fired.


Uncle Ted

[swaghauler]

Ah. One should never assume :o

I was referring to Aussie models, which are not even close to the same standards, or weren't when I came across the original information ... and (dumb, I know), assumed it was the same for the US.

Phil

It was Securitas that really began using lights. This could easily have been a carryover from their operations in Europe.

There is a real need for lights in some cities. An A-Body weighs about 12 tons loaded on average and is as big as an Army 5-Ton. That's a large truck for certain city streets and bridges (many of which have 10-Ton weight limits). There is a real niche for Lights (especially in Europe) in areas where streets are tight and road/bridge weight limits are low.

[swaghauler]

Incorrect. Age of Sail warships (actually, until the mid 1840s any ship, as most ships heading for international waters were built to be equipped with some armament) were designed to be equipped decks were reinforced with scantlings and knees preciesly to support the down thrust from cannon recoil - several hundred pounds moving rapidly and absolutley some of it is pushing down.

Modern sailing vessels, especially pleasure craft are absolutely NOT made to support that kind of peak pressure on a deck. Neither are their sides built with the kind (and frequency) of ribs for breach lines to anchor from; something like a 4-lbr cannon (much less a 6, 12 or 24-lbr) would tear the cleats or eyes out of the vessel when fired.


Uncle Ted

If you were talking about something similar to my sailboat, I would most definitely agree. We are talking about MUCH larger sailboats built with true keels and usually carbon fiber, NOT fiberglass. Some may even have aluminum or steel hulls. I think you are underestimating the build quality of your typical sailing Megayacht. Stay-Plates often go straight down to the keel because it requires a sizable stay to hold in check a sail of 50 meters by 35 meters in a fresh gale. For the record, The Brigg Niagara had 1" pine decks and her ribs were set on 36" centers. Hardly "overbuilt" (because the crew had to portage her), yet she carried 18 32lb Carronades and 2 12lb Guns. Only her keel, ribs, and masts were oak.

I would agree that modern 21st Century boats WOULD have a problem because they are almost exclusively cored fiberglass boats now. A cored fiberglass boat has two layers of fiberglass with a layer of polystyrene foam between them for increased buoyancy. This type of hull would most definitely crack from the firing of a black powder cannon. These hulls only came into existence for larger boats during the first years of the 21st Century. Most Twilight Era boats would still be Plywood and fiberglass resin build.

We are also not talking about Guns/Cannon. We are talking about Carronades which are shorter and lighter than guns. The 10 6lb Carronades which were mounted on Constitution's spar deck only weighed 170kg EACH with attendant carriage. I have seen these guns mounted on modern (for the 90's) 60 foot sailboats made of 4-ply Marine plywood coated with fiberglass in the Carribean as curios and "signaling guns. A few of these Carronades have even used by modern boats in mock battles down there. No carronade ever crashed through a deck during such an event.

So success would depend on the boat AND the armament in question. I suspect that the issue you brought up is precisely the reason that Carronades outnumber Cannon 3 to 1 in the US and Carribean. They were lighter, cheaper, and easier to cast.

[.45cultist]

If you were talking about something similar to my sailboat, I would most definitely agree. We are talking about MUCH larger sailboats built with true keels and usually carbon fiber, NOT fiberglass. Some may even have aluminum or steel hulls. I think you are underestimating the build quality of your typical sailing Megayacht. Stay-Plates often go straight down to the keel because it requires a sizable stay to hold in check a sail of 50 meters by 35 meters in a fresh gale. For the record, The Brigg Niagara had 1" pine decks and her ribs were set on 36" centers. Hardly "overbuilt" (because the crew had to portage her), yet she carried 18 32lb Carronades and 2 12lb Guns. Only her keel, ribs, and masts were oak.

I would agree that modern 21st Century boats WOULD have a problem because they are almost exclusively cored fiberglass boats now. A cored fiberglass boat has two layers of fiberglass with a layer of polystyrene foam between them for increased buoyancy. This type of hull would most definitely crack from the firing of a black powder cannon. These hulls only came into existence for larger boats during the first years of the 21st Century. Most Twilight Era boats would still be Plywood and fiberglass resin build.

We are also not talking about Guns/Cannon. We are talking about Carronades which are shorter and lighter than guns. The 10 6lb Carronades which were mounted on Constitution's spar deck only weighed 170kg EACH with attendant carriage. I have seen these guns mounted on modern (for the 90's) 60 foot sailboats made of 4-ply Marine plywood coated with fiberglass in the Carribean as curios and "signaling guns. A few of these Carronades have even used by modern boats in mock battles down there. No carronade ever crashed through a deck during such an event.

So success would depend on the boat AND the armament in question. I suspect that the issue you brought up is precisely the reason that Carronades outnumber Cannon 3 to 1 in the US and Carribean. They were lighter, cheaper, and easier to cast.

The Grenada module stated they built the schooners in the traditional way, wouldn't that mean suitable for weapons?

[swaghauler]

The Grenada module stated they built the schooners in the traditional way, wouldn't that mean suitable for weapons?

This would depend on the basic construction of that vessel. As Unkated has already brought up, construction varies greatly. If it was a conventional "civil" construction, it would have oak framing and pine cladding and decks. Military vessels would be all hard wood construction (oak in the US). I would look up the specs of a real world schooner and apply those traits to the game schooner.
The real world schooner should list an "acceptable deck loading" (weight the deck can hold). For instance, the deck loading for my sailboat is 100 kilograms.