Norfolk Status: Going Home Time Frame

[kalos72]

Hey guys...

One thing I wanted to ask was, who was actually stationed in Norfolk before Going Home?

I mean its supposed to be an HQ but had no stationed units? Anyone think that through or do a write up there?

Seems more Civgov units were in the area then anything Milgov no?

Just a random thought... :)

[Adm.Lee]

Dunno about the US Army, but the Navy has a lot of ships there, and I think Atlantic Fleet's HQ. Lots of Marine & Navy installations around, such as the amphibious force's bases (includes Special Warfare).

Wikipedia says that nearby Fort Monroe is the HQ for the Army's Training & Doctrine Command. The fort closed in 2005.

That's all I have, someone who's been there may have more for you.

[Legbreaker]

By 2000, and after several years of warfare, nukes and civil disorder, who knows who's there? It's possible the entire area was abandoned and then reoccupied by an advance force a short time before TF34 arrived.
Anyone who had occupied the area without the military's authorisation would surely have fled the moment the fleet appeared on the horizon and started landing troops. 50,000 soldiers make a persuasive argument!

[pmulcahy11b]

Langley AFB isn't far from Norfolk, just to throw a little spin into it. Home of squadrons of F-15A/Bs, C/Ds, and Es, and the personnel and equipment needed to support them.

[Legbreaker]

Those F-15's aren't like to remain there after so many years of warfare though are they? Anything that can fly and be fitted with a weapon would be pushed to one of the many combat theatres, at least until the fuel ran out.
Supporting units/troops would also be moved to where they can be more useful.

[kalos72]

Well, I understand whats near it now. But per canon, who was there to run the joint?

It was still the Navy HQ to the best of my knowledge, some units had to be there to secure the ships right?

What ships were there, nothing canon that I am aware of.

One of the things that always annoyed me was the lack of ANY information about other units. Nothing about Engineer battalions or AAB's or MI units. I guess the sheer volume there could have caused alot of issues for the writers but still...I wish. :)

[Legbreaker]

But per canon, who was there to run the joint?

Absolutely nothing and nobody. It's up to the individual GM to populate the area if they so wish. Personally I can't see much point as PCs aren't likely to be involved even in the small scale decisions and certainly not in the preparatory phases of the operation.

It might be interesting for a PC group to be sent ahead as a part of a scouting mission, but given that the game concepts have the PCs in eastern or central Europe when the mission is being organised....

Whatever units were their prior to the evacuation would have undoubtedly been absorbed, reorganised, or even disbanded by the time PCs arrive (unless they're sent ahead).

[Slappy]

Only as a civilian, but I've spent a fair amount of time in the Norfolk / Hampton / VA Beach area. The place is littered with bases. Shipyards, naval aviation, training, weapons development and testing, logistics, you name it. It's pretty scattered and maybe not the most combat ready, but even without an infantry formation per se, it adds up to thousands of personnel, even before you count civilians. It's also home to thousands more ex service members who could probably be mobilized in a pinch.

I think they'd have to reorganize, rationalize the footprint, find a way to get extra equipment, etc. But I have no trouble believing that the personnel on hand could hold and maintain that area if they were loyal and had food. If you further assume that even a couple smaller units stayed there for added security rather than being deployed to Europe, you have a good base for the TF to return to without needing big named units in place there.

[WallShadow]

IIRC there was an enclave at Norfolk performing salvage and support following the nukes dropped on the base/area.

[Legbreaker]

I've now searched through all the books and Challenge articles and came up with this.

Howling Wilderness
Norfolk/Portsmouth, VA: Atlantic Command Headquarters, port and facilities (1 Mt).
Note this strike occured in 1997.

Challenge #30
U.S. Military Government's enclave at Norfolk, Virginia
This is a snip from the 17th of June 1999 when the Eastern Military Government of Canada reached out to both Milgov and Civgov simultaneously. Note however this is an article on Canada written by Legion G. McRae (who was a prolific contributor to the magazine, and also wrote part of Twilight Nightmares). Not technically canon, but about as close as you're likely to get.

The article "A Rock in Troubled Waters" in Challenge #42 also has a few references to Norfolk, but not much beyond a few vessels in the area.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I would imagine the nuke footprint on that entire region would be so big that the personnel in charge of Norfolk would be rats and cockroaches; however, they might at least truck in a few hundred people to help the soon-to-be-discharged 50000+ military (seriously, five divisions worth of troops and MilGov - who is just barely holding on to the oil fields in Oklahoma - is going to just let the lot of them wander off into Mad Max land?!) get squared away and disbursed.

If the USSR didn't flatten Norfolk and surrounding environs then you might as well say Elves with +2 broadswords run it because that's the level of fantasy we'd be talking about.

[pmulcahy11b]

Those F-15's aren't like to remain there after so many years of warfare though are they? Anything that can fly and be fitted with a weapon would be pushed to one of the many combat theatres, at least until the fuel ran out.
Supporting units/troops would also be moved to where they can be more useful.

My point here is, what did they leave behind? A computer with personal records and protected by a Faraday cage? A vault with who-knows-what inside? ETC...

[Legbreaker]

1 MT is going to do some serious damage. http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=1000&lat=36.9230909&lng=-76.3048841&airburst=0&hob_ft=0&casualties=1&fallout=1&ff=50&fallout_angle=-159&fatalities=43398&injuries=114182&psi_1=365060&zm=9
The prevailing winds at that time of year are also going to drive the fallout south along the coast. https://www.windfinder.com/windstatistics/norfolk_naval_station
Fortunately the area was only hit with one large strike, http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=851, however the published lists only include warheads of 0.5 megaton or more. It's quite possible, even probable, smaller warheads struck nearby. One of those were probably targeted at Langley AFB. http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?t=63ca29d1437fcd6017aa809c250eb874

[rcaf_777]

One of those were probably targeted at Langley AFB.

but that not canon ethier

[Targan]

but that not canon ethier

Unless there is a mention in a canon source of Langley having been spared, it's entirely possible. One or more sub-0.5mt strikes on Langley wouldn't contradict canon unless a canon source specifically says Langley is intact.

[Legbreaker]

but that not canon ethier
Unless there is a mention in a canon source of Langley having been spared, it's entirely possible. One or more sub-0.5mt strikes on Langley wouldn't contradict canon unless a canon source specifically says Langley is intact.

Correct on both counts.
Put yourself in the Soviet commanders seat for a moment. Would YOU spare Langley?

[RN7]

From Wikipedia:

Naval Station Norfolk is a United States Navy base in Norfolk, Virginia. It supports naval forces in the United States Fleet Forces Command, those operating in the Atlantic Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, and Indian Ocean. NS Norfolk, also known as the Norfolk Naval Base, occupies about four miles (6 km) of waterfront space and seven miles (11 km) of pier and wharf space of the Hampton Roads peninsula known as Sewell's Point. It is the world's largest naval station, supporting 75 ships and 134 aircraft alongside 14 piers and 11 aircraft hangars, and houses the largest concentration of U.S. Navy forces. Port Services control more than 3,100 ship movements annually.


So Norfolk is America's primary East Coast naval base and in fact its largest. In 2016 U.S. Navy ships based at Norfolk include warships attached to Carrier Strike Group Two, Eight, Ten and Twelve, Destroyer Squadron 2, 14, 22, 26 and 28, Amphibious Squadron 4, 6, 8 and Submarine Squadron 6.

Military facilities near Naval Station Norfolk include Camp Allen also in Norfolk, Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach, Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek, Dam Neck in Virginia Beach, St. Julien's Creek Annex in Chesapeake, Fort Eustis in Newport News, Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, U.S. Navy and Coast Guard facilities in Portsmouth and Yorktown, and the CIA training facility known as the "The Farm' at Camp Peary in York County. The Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth is also the U.S. Navy's largest industrial facility. Also there is Fort Monroe in Hampton which is a very large and now decommissioned US Army coastal artillery fort and a national monument.

Four naval carrier air wings are attached to Naval Air Station Oceana which has four runways. U.S. Navy Naval Special Warfare Group Two and Four are based at Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek along with a number of naval construction and specialised units. U.S. Navy Weapon Station Yorktown is a 20.7 square mile (54 square kilometre) complex that stretches across York County, James City County, Newport News and Hampton Roads which provides extensive storage and loading facilities for U.S. Navy weapons and ammunition. Langley Air Force Base hosts the USAF 1st Fighter Wing and the Virginia Air Guard 192nd Fighter Wing. Two US Marine Corps fleet anti-terrorist security team's are based at Camp Allen, and a number of U.S. Army logistics and aviation support units are based at Fort Eustis.

Non-military run facilities in the area include Huntington-Ingalls Industries Newport News Shipbuilding who design, build and refuel U.S. Navy nuclear powered aircraft carriers, the Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility in Newport News, Norfolk International Airport and Newport News/Williamsburg International Airport. There are also numerous commercial docks and ship handling facilities and a huge amount of transport infrastructure such as railway hubs, road and rail tunnels and large bridges in the area. There are two nuclear power plants in Virginia within 30 miles of Norfolk and another one in Maryland on the western shore of Chesapeake Bay.

If this is not a priority nuclear target for the Soviet Union then I don't know what is.

However despite lobbing a 1mt warhead at Norfolk the sheer size of the facilities in the area means a lot must have survived even if the Soviets got a direct hit and I doubt they did with Norfolk and the other bases lying so close to the sea. As Task Force 34 is referred to as sailing for Norfolk then we must assume that the Norfolk area is relatively intact and under MilGov control.

[Legbreaker]

What if that 1 MT worth of nuke wasn't just one warhead, but the total of several warheads lobbed at the area? I'd think that would be a more efficient way of taking out a set of facilities such as this.
It's also possible 2 or three times that payload was launched, but the additional warheads failed to arrive due to interception or launch vehicle failure. I think I read somewhere that only 85% was expected to arrive on target in a best case (for the attacker) scenario.

[rcaf_777]

What if that 1 MT worth of nuke wasn't just one warhead, but the total of several warheads lobbed at the area? .

Well considering the Soviet MIRV payloads are larger than 1MT that probleley what happened, I check the rule book target list version 2.2 and AFB Langley not on the list, so it's not hit.

why you might ask yourself why it was not hit? Take your pick, it was not targeted, the weapon system targeting it was destroyed prior to intented launch, the weapons malfunctioned after take off, near or total miss, or it was a dud.

[Legbreaker]

...I check the rule book target list version 2.2 and AFB Langley not on the list, so it's not hit.

No, all that's saying is it wasn't hit with 0.5 MT or greater. It's quite possible it was hit with something smaller - that's up to the individual GM to decide.
The severity of the attack on each target point is represented by the megaton (Mt) rating of the weapons exploded there (not necessarily as a single weapon).
So that confirms Norfolk could have received (and in my opinion did) multiple warheads. Langley is only about 10 miles from the Naval base so it's conceivable the writers didn't bother to split it into two separate listings. For example we all know Warsaw received 3 warheads to the city yet it's only listed once.
With certain exceptions, only places that received .5 megaton or more are covered here
Remember the lists ONLY show the larger strikes with a few exceptions on targets which are detailed in the modules. One of those exceptions is the Presidential shelter at the White House (.25 Mt, ground burst).
We also know nuclear craters are a possible result on the random encounter tables, so it's absolutely certain nowhere near all nuclear strikes have been listed in the books.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that several sites might not have been hit due to defective warheads not going off, missiles going off course due to multiple reasons, and also missile defenses taking out the incoming warheads

As for not every target being listed in the game you have to keep in mind that there were a lot of targets that have been confirmed by various sources that were not hit - for example the only places hit in PA are the ones listed in Howling Wilderness - Allegheny Uprising confirmed that they were the only places hit by nukes - which means the Soviets completely ignored the Mack Truck assembly plant in Allentown, Three Mile Island, Harrisburg, the Naval Weapons Center, the BAE plant at York (which was making Bradley's, M109's, Bufords, M88A2s and would be a prime military target), Carlisle, Fort Indiantown Gap, and three US Army Depots - all of them untouched by nukes of any sort

Thus there is every chance that places not listed in the various guides as being hit were never hit by nukes of any kind - which by the way still leaves open them being hit by a conventional attack of some kind. So its not as easy as saying that places not listed in HW under the major nukes had to have been hit by smaller ones.

[RN7]

What if that 1 MT worth of nuke wasn't just one warhead, but the total of several warheads lobbed at the area? I'd think that would be a more efficient way of taking out a set of facilities such as this.
It's also possible 2 or three times that payload was launched, but the additional warheads failed to arrive due to interception or launch vehicle failure. I think I read somewhere that only 85% was expected to arrive on target in a best case (for the attacker) scenario.

Howling Wilderness states that the Soviet's launched a 1 Mt nuclear warhead against Norfolk/Portsmouth.

If this is the case then it must have been a single warhead as the Soviet Union only ever developed one type of 1.0 Mt nuclear warhead.

They were deployed on the SS-N-6 SLBM's (Mod 1 & 2) that were carried on Yankee 1 and Yankee II submarines. The SS-N-6 was developed in the 1960's and early 1970's with a range of between 2,400 and 3,200 km and a CEP of 1.9 km (Mod 1) and 1.3 to 1.8 (Mod 2). So due to their relatively limited range in comparison to Soviet ICBM's and newer and more capable Soviet SLBM's the Yankee submarines could not launch their SS-N-6 missiles in the relative safety of Arctic waters.

So they would have to penetrate NATO anti-submarine defences along the GIUK Gap in the North Atlantic to get within launching range of the US Eastern Seaboard, and then launch their older and less accurate SLBM's while being stalked by powerful fleets of US and British nuclear powered hunter killer submarines. Also due to the age and relative accuracy of the SS-N-6 missile and the fact that their intended target of Norfolk and Portsmouth with other bases in the area are located on or near the shoreline of Chesapeake Bay, there is a high (50%) probability that the SS-N-6 missile will land offshore in Chesapeake Bay, or could in fact land on the sparsely inhabited Delmarva Peninsula or even further out in the Atlantic Ocean.

[Legbreaker]

Absolutely correct.
Some places not listed may have been hit, some not hit, some hit with either conventional weapons, sabotage, or both.
At the end of the day it's all down to the GM to decide just how screwed a place is. The books provide us with a framework to build on and as long as we're faithful to that framework and the intentions of the writers, the rest can be whatever the GM wants.

As for Langley, I don't know if it would warrant a nuke, I don't know enough about it and what's to be found there. However, it'd certainly be considered as a target by the Soviets for attack at some point. Perhaps it was a secondary or tertiary target only to be targeted in a full scale nuclear war, perhaps it was simply missed in the initial exchange. Perhaps it's already flattened. It really doesn't matter all that much in the grand scheme, only if a GM decides there's enough there to warrant the PCs checking it out for some reason.

We also don't know for sure that TF-34 docked at the Naval base itself, only that Norfolk attracted nukes totalling around 1MT, and 50,000 American troops evacuated from Europe with the Norfolk region as their main destination. Some ships may not have reached Norfolk, or been diverted to other Milgov enclaves along the coast. This seems likely given the logistical nightmare feeding so many people would entail.

Norfolk appears to have received an airburst(s) as ground bursts appear to be specifically noted in the target lists. Therefore radiation levels may be almost tolerable (look at Warsaw for example) and physical damage to infrastructure out of the immediate blast area is potentially repairable given time and resources. The warheads may have drifted off target by a mile or so as well, which would help to spare some of the necessary facilities to receive TF-34.

There also appears to be other dock facilities in the area besides the naval base which may have been pressed into use.

[Legbreaker]

Howling Wilderness states that the Soviet's launched a 1 Mt nuclear warhead against Norfolk/Portsmouth.

If this is the case then it must have been a single warhead as the Soviet Union only ever developed one type of 1.0 Mt nuclear warhead.

Not at all. There's a number of Soviet warheads of lesser yields, and there's nothing to say the total delivered was exactly 1.0MT - could have been slightly more, or slightly less.

It's even possible the area was nuked on more than one occasion, perhaps several different warheads over a period of several days as damage assessments became available.

Exact details though don't matter as previously mentioned.

[RN7]

Not at all. There's a number of Soviet warheads of lesser yields, and there's nothing to say the total delivered was exactly 1.0MT - could have been slightly more, or slightly less.

It's even possible the area was nuked on more than one occasion, perhaps several different warheads over a period of several days as damage assessments became available.

Exact details though don't matter as previously mentioned.

I think I'll follow canon as you initially did. What other targets in the world were nuked on more than one occasion? Exact details do matter to many of us.

[RN7]

Absolutely correct.
Some places not listed may have been hit, some not hit, some hit with either conventional weapons, sabotage, or both.

I think the only way the Soviet Union is going to attack the continental United States with conventional weapons is if they replace nuclear warhead on ICBM's with conventional warheads. No Soviet bomber is going to get anywhere near the US-Canadian border in 1997, in fact I would be surprised if any Soviet bomber made it as far as 60th Parallel in Northern Canada, unless the Soviet occupied Iceland. As regards sabotage, maybe some limited incidents, but no group of armed Spetsnaz is going to do much damage or last long in America. The locals will probably be better armed. Also watch invasion USA. Chuck Norris put the invading Cuban, Nicaraguan and Soviet terrorists in their place.

[Legbreaker]

I think I'll follow canon as you initially did. What other targets in the world were nuked on more than one occasion? Exact details do matter to many of us.

And I still am. There is NOTHING to say there is only one warhead and it dropped on any particular day. It specifically states "not necessarily as a single weapon".

What I am saying is in this case it's an open playing field. The details are impossible to pin down. It's up to the individual GM to say what did, or did not happen within the few guidelines we have on this particular issue.

Was it one warhead? Maybe. But it's also just as possible there were multiple warheads. We just don't know for sure.

Most of the likely Soviet missiles carried multiple warheads, and the distance between targets of each warhead is limited to a few hundred kilometres. There are only a handful of other targets within that possible area (all 0.5MT), so where did the other warheads go? Are Soviet missiles equipped with warheads of varying yields all within the same bus, or is it more likely that two 0.5MT warheads hit the Norfolk area? My money is on the latter, but that's just my opinion and I freely admit that may not be the case - we'll never know.

As for conventional weapons attacks, do the Soviets not possess sub, ship or aircraft launched cruise missiles just like many other nations? Conventional weapons are possible. They're just not as effective as a nuke, but may be exactly what's required at certain points through the war.

[Targan]

Military facilities near Naval Station Norfolk include Camp Allen also in Norfolk, Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach, Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek, Dam Neck in Virginia Beach, St. Julien's Creek Annex in Chesapeake, Fort Eustis in Newport News, Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, U.S. Navy and Coast Guard facilities in Portsmouth and Yorktown, and the CIA training facility known as the "The Farm' at Camp Peary in York County.

In my last campaign one of the PCs (not under Major Po's command, it was a parallel game involving a MilGov/DIA mission to track Major Po's movements after he returned to CONUS) attempted to reconnoitre The Farm but never reached any of the main facilities as he detected manned listening posts on the outskirts and decided not to push his luck. By that stage Major Po's group had also had their own skirmishes with CIA assets operating in the Norfolk AO.

[RN7]

And I still am. There is NOTHING to say there is only one warhead and it dropped on any particular day. It specifically states "not necessarily as a single weapon".

It clearly states a 1 Mt warhead was used on Norfolk/Portsmouth.


Was it one warhead? Maybe. But it's also just as possible there were multiple warheads. We just don't know for sure.

Most of the likely Soviet missiles carried multiple warheads, and the distance between targets of each warhead is limited to a few hundred kilometres. There are only a handful of other targets within that possible area (all 0.5MT), so where did the other warheads go? Are Soviet missiles equipped with warheads of varying yields all within the same bus, or is it more likely that two 0.5MT warheads hit the Norfolk area? My money is on the latter, but that's just my opinion and I freely admit that may not be the case - we'll never know.

The individual yield of Soviet nuclear warheads deployed on their missiles during the Cold War is even today a matter of contention. Many Soviet missiles were MIRV capable, but I only know of one missile which specifically carried a 1.0 Mt warhead, and that was the SS-N-6 with a single warhead. The American's, Chinese, British and French did not mix and match the yields of the warheads on their missiles, and I have yet see evidence that the Soviets did either. If you know of a source that shows they did I will gladly stand corrected.

As for conventional weapons attacks, do the Soviets not possess sub, ship or aircraft launched cruise missiles just like many other nations? Conventional weapons are possible. They're just not as effective as a nuke, but may be exactly what's required at certain points through the war.

They do but submarines, ships and aircraft also have to get in range of their target to launch a cruise missile. How hostile do you think the North Atlantic would be for the Soviet Air Force and Navy in 1997?. No Soviet ship is going to be able to penetrate the GIUK Gap to break out into the Atlantic and approach the US Eastern Seaboard, in fact its unlikely that any Soviet submarine would be able to do it either given the level of anti-submarine forces that the US and NATO have in Northern waters. And then they have to breach the heavy defended naval and anti-submarine cordon around America's largest naval base stretching hundreds of miles out into the Atlantic.

As for an air attack, do the Soviets posses stealth bombers? Because there is no way that any Soviet bomber would get any way near the continental US in wartime.

[RN7]

In my last campaign one of the PCs (not under Major Po's command, it was a parallel game involving a MilGov/DIA mission to track Major Po's movements after he returned to CONUS) attempted to reconnoitre The Farm but never reached any of the main facilities as he detected manned listening posts on the outskirts and decided not to push his luck. By that stage Major Po's group had also had their own skirmishes with CIA assets operating in the Norfolk AO.

The CIA Farm would likely be the DIA Farm in 2000!

[Legbreaker]

It clearly states a 1 Mt warhead was used on Norfolk/Portsmouth.

No. It doesn't. As indicated by the quotes I made from the books in my earlier posts.
It only says a total of 1MT which it specifically states in the notes "not necessarily as a single weapon". Notice I've once again quoted the books here.


The individual yield of Soviet nuclear warheads deployed on their missiles during the Cold War is even today a matter of contention. Many Soviet missiles were MIRV capable, but I only know of one missile which specifically carried a 1.0 Mt warhead, and that was the SS-N-6 with a single warhead.
The R-36 is capable of carrying up to 10 warheads with 40 penetration aids (aka decoys). The warheads could be anywhere between 0.5MT and 25MT.
Note that two 0.5MT warheads adds up to the total 1MT dropped on Norfolk.
Also note that all other targets within the likely area of one of these missiles also received 0.5MT or a multiple of it. This fact reinforces the possibility of several warheads being dropped on Norfolk.
This is just one of several possible missiles which could have been used. There is nothing to say a ground based ICBM was in fact targeted to this area - could have been a boomer with a different set of warheads and payloads.


They do but submarines, ships and aircraft...

As for an air attack...
I only mentioned them as possibilities.

The whole point of my last few posts is that it's possible within a strict interpretation of the information we have that more than one warhead was used to attack Norfolk. Given a little research I believe that it is likely the missile used was probably an R-36M carrying eight (8) 0.5MT warheads. This missile also delivered warheads as far north as Washington DC. Likely targets in this particular scenario included:
Andrews AFB, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Fort Meade, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Camp David, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Arlington, VA: The Pentagon (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Quantico, VA: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Fort A.P. Hill, VA: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Norfolk/Portsmouth, VA: Atlantic Command Headquarters, port and facilities (1 Mt).

You'll note this adds up to exactly 8 of those 0.5MT warheads the R-36M carries and all those targets are within the likely throw range for the warheads from one missile.

Is this exactly how it happened? Who knows, but it's certainly plausible, and that is the entire point.

[RN7]

No. It doesn't. As indicated by the quotes I made from the books in my earlier posts.
It only says a total of 1MT which it specifically states in the notes "not necessarily as a single weapon". Notice I've once again quoted the books here.

Howling Wilderness states ' The severity of the attack on each target point is represented by the megaton (Mt) rating of the weapons exploded there (not necessarily as a single weapon).'

So yes it may not have been a single weapon, but then again it may also have been one as the statement is ambiguous. However Howling Wilderness does not state what Soviet missile was launched at Norfolk/Portsmouth, nor does it tell us that it was a MIRV. There is only one Soviet warhead with a yield of 1 Mt and it was deployed on the SS-N-6 SLBM.


The R-36 is capable of carrying up to 10 warheads with 40 penetration aids (aka decoys).

Only the R-36UTTkh carried ten warheads and the yield of the warheads were 0.55 Mt. It was specifically designed and deployed to attack American ICBM silos and hardened targets. From 1988 it began to be replaced by the more accurate R-36M2 which also had ten warheads with yields of 0.55 or 0.75 Mt or higher according to Western estimates. The R-36M2 like the R-36UTTkh was designed and deployed specifically to attack American ICBM silos and hardened targets.


The warheads could be anywhere between 0.5MT and 25MT.

No they weren't. There was ten different models of the R-36 (SS-9 and SS-18) and they were specifically designed with either single warheads of high mega tonnage, or were designed as MIRV's with smaller warhead yields. The Soviets like everyone else did not mix and match the yields of the warheads on their MIRV's, all the warheads were of the same yield.


The whole point of my last few posts is that it's possible within a strict interpretation of the information we have that more than one warhead was used to attack Norfolk. Given a little research I believe that it is likely the missile used was probably an R-36M carrying eight (8) 0.5MT warheads.

Western sources estimated the yield of the R-36M's warheads at 0.6 Mt or 1.5 Mt. Also the R-36M had serious flaws in its post-boost vehicle design and was entirely replaced by the R-36UTTh from 1983.


This missile also delivered warheads as far north as Washington DC. Likely targets in this particular scenario included:
Andrews AFB, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Fort Meade, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Camp David, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Arlington, VA: The Pentagon (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Quantico, VA: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Fort A.P. Hill, VA: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Norfolk/Portsmouth, VA: Atlantic Command Headquarters, port and facilities (1 Mt).

You'll note this adds up to exactly 8 of those 0.5MT warheads the R-36M carries and all those targets are within the likely throw range for the warheads from one missile.

Not with an R-36M

[pmulcahy11b]

Just to throw a wrench in, the Russians were believed to have armed some of their ICBM warheads with biological warfare warheads.

[RN7]

Just to throw a wrench in, the Russians were believed to have armed some of their ICBM warheads with biological warfare warheads.

The Soviets had a very active and extensive biological warfare programme.

According to Jonathan Tucker of the Monterey Institute of International Studies the Soviets developed smallpox biological weapons that were intended for use against American cities, with the aim of killing the survivors in the aftermath of a nuclear exchange. U.S. intelligence officials said they were unaware of the plan until Soviet scientist Kanatjan Alibek defected in 1992, and is now the executive director of George Mason University’s Center for Biodefense in Virginia. But the U.S. had suspicions that one Soviet missile system had been modified to carry biological weapons; The SS-11 missiles had an oddly shaped warhead, and it was suspected it might be for biological weapons;

Tucker states that the SS-11, SS-13, SS-17 and SS-18 ICBM's were equipped with special biological weapon warheads over a 20-year-period. He also states that many of the missiles were based in silos near the Arctic Circle on a launch-ready status. The cold temperatures in the far north kept the smallpox agent viable for long periods. Tom Cochran of the Natural Resources Defense Council, which maintains a historical database of Soviet missile deployments, said that while there were no Soviet missile fields within 500 miles of the Arctic Circle. Four fields of SS-11, SS-13 and SS-17 missiles were located at northern latitudes of the Soviet Union during the period Alibek says the smallpox warheads were deployed. Those fields no longer exist as of 2001.

Tucker also states that Soviet engineers later developed special refrigerated warheads for the more modern SS-18, to enable the biological payload to survive the intense heat of re-entry through the atmosphere. A senior U.S. intelligence official at the time confirmed that U.S. spy satellites had detected a variant of the SS-11 missile warhead that had raised suspicions about biological weapons.

Alibek said the initial targets were New York, Seattle and Chicago, and that Boston was added to the list later. And American cities were not the only target. After 1968 Chinese cities also were placed on the target list. Alibek said he saw Gorbachev's signature on a Soviet Politburo document authorizing the production of smallpox for use in a war against the United States.

Tucker also states that the Soviet Union may have been responsible for distributing samples of the smallpox virus to other countries, including Iraq and North Korea, following the World Health Organization's eradication of the disease in the late 1970's. Tucker cites a U.S. National Security Council document as listing other possible recipients as China, Cuba, India, Iran, Israel, Pakistan and Yugoslavia.

However a lot of this is speculation. I would be certain that the Soviets did think about developing biological warheads for missiles and maybe even tinkered with a prototype or two. But I don't think there is any real evidence that the Soviet ever really deployed biological warheads on ICBM's.

[Targan]

Yes indeed, and the Soviets' weaponised anthrax production is now widely known of too. Literally dozens of TONS of it right up to the end of the Soviet Union. I'd like to point the finger and say 'evil, evil bastards' but I suspect all of the major powers during the Cold War had active biological weapons programs, and may well still have.

[RN7]

Yes indeed, and the Soviets' weaponised anthrax production is now widely known of too. Literally dozens of TONS of it right up to the end of the Soviet Union. I'd like to point the finger and say 'evil, evil bastards' but I suspect all of the major powers during the Cold War had active biological weapons programs, and may well still have.

America also had a very active biological warfare programme including anthrax among many other diseases, and there are allegations that the U.S used them during the Korean War and against Cuba in 1962, and maybe also in Vietnam. President Nixon ended all offensive aspects of the U.S. bio-weapons program in 1969. In 1975 the U.S. ratified both the 1925 Geneva Protocol and the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention (BWC). However there are allegations that the US Army is evading the BWC by conduction research into non-lethal biological weapons, and has researched the potential of entomological warfare ie. using insects as a weapon.

[RN7]

Yes indeed, and the Soviets' weaponised anthrax production is now widely known of too. Literally dozens of TONS of it right up to the end of the Soviet Union. I'd like to point the finger and say 'evil, evil bastards' but I suspect all of the major powers during the Cold War had active biological weapons programs, and may well still have.

Also of note to Targan and our Australian friends is that fact that Australia had a biological weapons programme and intended to use it.

Sir Frank Macfarlane Burnet who was the Director of the Walter and Eliza Hall Institute for Medical Research, and won the Nobel Prize for medicine in 1960 stated that...

"Specifically to the Australian situation, the most effective counter-offensive to threatened invasion by overpopulated Asiatic countries would be directed towards the destruction by biological or chemical means of tropical food crops and the dissemination of infectious disease capable of spreading in tropical but not under Australian conditions."

In 1951 it recommended that chemical and biological warfare research should be authorised to report on the offensive potentiality of biological agents likely to be effective against the local food supplies of South-East Asia and Indonesia.

Australia signed the BWC in 1972 and ended all Australian research into offensive biological weapons. However it should be noted that Australia has advanced research programs in immunology, microbiology and genetic engineering that support an industry providing world class vaccines for domestic use and export. It produces microorganisms on an industrial scale to support industries including agriculture, food technology and brewing. The dual-use nature of these facilities mean that Australia could easily produce biological warfare agents. Some disease research laboratories in Australia own strains of the Ebola virus. The Australian Microbial Resources Research Network lists 37 culture collections, many of which hold samples of pathogenic organisms for legitimate research purposes.

[Targan]

Well the CSIRO and associated government-funded bodies are right up there with the world's best scientists so they'd certainly have the capability. Heck, Australia joined the Blue Streak program with the understanding that we'd get our own nukes at the end, but the US thought Australia was a security risk and that we'd hand all the tech specs to the commies so they blocked it.

We've just commenced hostilities on the European carp and we're about to engage in some pretty nasty biological warfare against those scaly, gill-breathing bastards. Prepare for herpes carp-agedon, fishies!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I find a lot of this info quite interesting but ultimately, how does it gibe with the canon information? I haven't read the books for some time but knowing full well that when they were written there wasn't as much information available, I feel that any correct info we have found after the fact still needs to be tailored to suit the gameworld - otherwise we start to lose the flavour of the game that attracted us to it in the first place.

[JHart]

Seeing as I've lived in the Hampton Roads area for 30 odd years I thought I'd add my 2 cents.
In reading previous discussions on the board, my assumption follows.
If it is stated in canon that the fleet returning from "Going Home" makes port in Norfolk, it would seem to me that there is something to return to. It is canon that a nuke was dropped with the intent to hit the Atlantic Command HQ located at the Norfolk Naval base. If it was a direct hit, it certainly wouldn't do the base any good, but there are other port facilities, both military and commercial in the Hampton Roads area. Assuming no other nukes are dropped on military or civilian targets in the area, then it is conceivable the fleet would return to Norfolk rather than another port on the Eastern Seaboard.
If it is more than one weapon, the Soviets could sling nukes at some of the following targets:
Major: Newport News Shipbuilding and Norfolk Naval Shipyard (located across the river from Norfolk in Portsmouth) which are still worth hitting in the non all out nuclear exchange presented in the game. Hitting these two targets and hitting Bremerton effectively ends carrier building and major carrier repair for the foreseeable future.
Minor: Southside - Little Creek NAB, Oceana NAS, Chambers Field (part of Norfolk naval station), Ft Story various civilian shipyards. Peninsula - Langley AFB, Ft Eustis, Yorktown NWS, Camp Perry, various civilian shipyards.

Most of the minor targets, with perhaps the exception of the shipyards, wouldn't really be worth hitting in a non all out attack. Most personal, equipment and planes would presumably already be deployed. Whether the Soviets care or not is another story, but in might make a difference in tit for tat exchanges.

In an all out bolt from the blue attack, most of southeast Virginia would be glass. In a tit for tat nuke exchange their is some chance of survival.

[WallShadow]

We've just commenced hostilities on the European carp and we're about to engage in some pretty nasty biological warfare against those scaly, gill-breathing bastards. Prepare for herpes carp-agedon, fishies!

But think of all the potential gefilte fish you'll be wasting!!!
On second thought, having tried gefilte fish several times with unfortunate reviews each time, go ahead and massacre 'em!

[Legbreaker]

If it is stated in canon that the fleet returning from "Going Home" makes port in Norfolk, it would seem to me that there is something to return to. It is canon that a nuke was dropped with the intent to hit the Atlantic Command HQ located at the Norfolk Naval base. If it was a direct hit, it certainly wouldn't do the base any good, but there are other port facilities, both military and commercial in the Hampton Roads area.
This is all true. The attack was an airburst (canon) so there's a chance some of the facilities not too close to ground zero would be still at least slightly usable (though the radiation might well put paid to that idea).
If it is more than one weapon, the Soviets could sling nukes at some of the following targets:
Major: Newport News Shipbuilding and Norfolk Naval Shipyard (located across the river from Norfolk in Portsmouth) which are still worth hitting in the non all out nuclear exchange presented in the game. Hitting these two targets and hitting Bremerton effectively ends carrier building and major carrier repair for the foreseeable future.
Given the information available to the writers at the time (as SSC has pointed out), it would seem very likely two 500kt warheads were used, although it's possible they believed 250kt warheads were a possibility. The two locations you've identified look like prime targets for one of those warheads, and are certainly close enough to be considered part of the one single strike.

T2K was written in the 1980's while the cold war still "raged" and details were hard to come by. We should not be using information gathered since then to try and explain why the books are written the way they are, but as SSC mentioned, alter what we now know to fit the books.

[Rainbow Six]

T2K was written in the 1980's while the cold war still "raged" and details were hard to come by. We should not be using information gathered since then to try and explain why the books are written the way they are, but as SSC mentioned, alter what we now know to fit the books.

Thanks for telling me what I should and should not be doing when it comes to how I play T2K Legbreaker, but I think I'll ignore your instructions and continue to interpret information as I wish.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Thanks for telling me what I should and should not be doing when it comes to how I play T2K Legbreaker, but I think I'll ignore your instructions and continue to interpret information as I wish.

Ah, well... perhaps we should all take a step back here and remember that everything posted here is based on personal preferences/beliefs/experience etc. etc. What's good for one may not be so good for another.
I tend to agree with Leg but I also have the opinion that he is not saying "You must all do it my way!" It seems that Western society has manufactured a culture of offence and people feel a need to take offence at the drop of a hat when none was ever intended.

[Legbreaker]

...he is not saying "You must all do it my way!"

Exactly right. Play the game the way you want, but in a public forum like this keep in mind that your way is not everyone's way and behave accordingly. Nobody has the right to demand others follow your own interpretation of the published materials, no matter how well you think you've thought it out and written it.

Now this particular thread started as a question on who, if anyone, was known to be stationed in the Norfolk region. The published materials on that are sparse at best and wide open for interpretation. This has led to a discussion on how many nukes were targeted at the area, and again, the information is limited to listing only a total payload delivered (1MT). Some disagree with my proposition that it was likely (I've never said definitely) multiple warheads, and that's their right, however the limited evidence seems to lean towards two 500kt warheads (nearby strikes are listed as 500kt, a likely launch vehicle carried 8 warheads of this yield, RN7 has stated to his knowledge differing yields were not carried on the same rocket, the 8 warheads fit very neatly into locations on the map with no overlap).

Now if somebody wants to say a single missile delivered a single 1MT warhead to Norfolk, I'm not going to flat out say they're wrong - could well be the case - but from my reading of the available information, two warheads are more plausible. There is nothing in the books to say either scenario is wrong.

If however somebody were to say (for example) twice that yield was dropped and then try to convince the rest of us they were right and the books totally wrong, well, then we'd have a problem wouldn't we...

[RN7]

Exactly right. Play the game the way you want, but in a public forum like this keep in mind that your way is not everyone's way and behave accordingly. Nobody has the right to demand others follow your own interpretation of the published materials, no matter how well you think you've thought it out and written it.

You know Legbreaker I find all of this ironic considering it is you who has been arguing for a multiple nuclear strike against the Norfolk region.


The published materials on that are sparse at best and wide open for interpretation.

There is a detailed target list with the severity of the attack on each target represented by the megaton.


Some disagree with my proposition that it was likely (I've never said definitely) multiple warheads, and that's their right, however the limited evidence seems to lean towards two 500kt warheads (nearby strikes are listed as 500kt, a likely launch vehicle carried 8 warheads of this yield, RN7 has stated to his knowledge differing yields were not carried on the same rocket, the 8 warheads fit very neatly into locations on the map with no overlap).

Not quite here are the targets listed across this region...

Delaware City, DE (0.75 Mt)
Andrews AFB, MD (0.5 Mt)
Fort Meade, MD (0.5 Mt)
Camp David, MD (0.5 Mt)
Linden, NJ (1.5 Mt)
Perth Amboy, NJ (1 Mt)
Paulsboro, NJ (0.5 Mt)
Westville, NJ (0.5 Mt)
Arlington, VA (0.5 Mt) ground burst
Quantico, VA (0.5 Mt) ground burst
Norfolk, VA (1 Mt)

Also when I stated that the R-36M which carried 8 warheads was entirely replaced by the R-36UTTh from 1983, what part did you miss?


Now if somebody wants to say a single missile delivered a single 1MT warhead to Norfolk, I'm not going to flat out say they're wrong - could well be the case - but from my reading of the available information, two warheads are more plausible. There is nothing in the books to say either scenario is wrong.

If however somebody were to say (for example) twice that yield was dropped and then try to convince the rest of us they were right and the books totally wrong, well, then we'd have a problem wouldn't we...

So the book says Norfolk was hit by a 1.0 Mt warhead, and then clearly list other targets that were hit by 0.5 Mt warheads. But I was wrong to quote GDW and have been trying to convince the rest of us about what the book stated which was totally wrong, and we should ignore what GDW stated to fit your idea that Norfolk was hit by a multiple MIRV strike carried on an ICBM which was retired in 1983.

[Targan]

Far be it for me to inject some logic into this increasingly tedious conversation, but might some of the disparity between the published T2K materials and the actual capabilities of the Soviet Union's nuclear arsenal and delivery systems lie with the fact that the writers were writing about fictional events in their (at the time) future, we now know far more about the Soviets' nuclear weaponry than the writers did, and there were changes and advancements in real-world Soviet nukes and delivery systems in the intervening time between the writing of the T2K materials and the future time in which they were set?

Given that situation, a GM is left with a number of options: ignore canon; assume that for the published materials to remain canon, only the weapons and delivery systems that the writers knew about can be assumed to have been in use during the T2K timeline; or integrate what we now know about the Soviets' real-world weapons and delivery systems into the timeline.

Unless all the participants in a debate such as this are on the same page with one of those options, the discussion is very likely to go round and round in circles with no-one feeling satisfied at the end. Ya feel me?

[Legbreaker]

You know Legbreaker I find all of this ironic considering it is you who has been arguing for a multiple nuclear strike against the Norfolk region.
Have you not read what I wrote? I have not claimed there absolutely were multiple warheads, just that's it's plausible!!!

There is a detailed target list with the severity of the attack on each target represented by the megaton.
And in the accompanying notes, which I have already quoted several times, it states not necessarily as a single weapon.

Not quite here are the targets listed across this region...

Delaware City, DE (0.75 Mt)
Andrews AFB, MD (0.5 Mt)
Fort Meade, MD (0.5 Mt)
Camp David, MD (0.5 Mt)
Linden, NJ (1.5 Mt)
Perth Amboy, NJ (1 Mt)
Paulsboro, NJ (0.5 Mt)
Westville, NJ (0.5 Mt)
Arlington, VA (0.5 Mt) ground burst
Quantico, VA (0.5 Mt) ground burst
Norfolk, VA (1 Mt)
Delaware city, Linden, Perth Amboy, Paulsboro, and Westville are all outside the probable area which one missile can deliver warheads. They are almost certainly a separate issue not relevant to Norfolk.
You will note that every other strike on your list is a multiple of 500KT - this fact lends weight to the possibility of them coming from one missile.
Also when I stated that the R-36M which carried 8 warheads was entirely replaced by the R-36UTTh from 1983, what part did you miss?
The part where the GDW writers had access to updated information we do today?
The part where anything more modern is utterly irrelevant with respect to canon?

So the book says Norfolk was hit by a 1.0 Mt warhead, and then clearly list other targets that were hit by 0.5 Mt warheads. But I was wrong to quote GDW and have been trying to convince the rest of us about what the book stated which was totally wrong, and we should ignore what GDW stated to fit your idea that Norfolk was hit by a multiple MIRV strike carried on an ICBM which was retired in 1983.
And again I quote for what must be the sixth time in this thread, and certainly the second in this post alone:
not necessarily as a single weapon
Yes, you are correct that the listing states 1MT, but you're ignoring the above quote in order to deny the possibility of a second (or even third, etc) warhead being used on the Norfolk area.
As previously stated there is no evidence to say there was more than one, just as there is no evidence to say there wasn't! It's a personal choice for the individual GM to decide. I've stated my belief with evidence as to why that it makes sense for two, you believe otherwise yet we're still to see anything from you besides cherry-picked information from the books, and irrelevant information available only after the books were written.

Please, if you've got something relevant and meaningful which doesn't rely on post publication information, lets hear it. Otherwise, lets just let this one go shall we?

[kalos72]

Ummm, hate to break up a good argument but...

We still have no clue what units/troops/equipment might be there to receive TF34. :)

[Legbreaker]

We still have no clue what units/troops/equipment might be there to receive TF34. :)

Correct. My guess is whatever Milgov managed to scrounge up and convince to occupy a location that still probably glows in the dark.

[kalos72]

Well, even that is not exactly consistent.

You have groups living in locations that have been nuked all through canon, why would Norfolk be any more irradiated then San Antonio for example?

Air bursts, to my limited knowledge, don't create much ground radiation.

How come I don't think this line of conversation will go any easier? :)

[Olefin]

Considering they brought them there when they could have sent them to the bases they have in New Jersey there had to be troops and facilities there that could support feeding and housing that many troops, let alone getting them re-organized back into fighting units.

Most likely were logistic units of various types along with military police units to keep order as well.

And can see one big reason to send them to Norfolk - which would be either for operations against CivGov troops in the Carolinas or possibly to move against the CivGov troops that were in Frederick - MilGov was previously lacking in troops to do anything about that but 43,000 troops would go a long way towards giving them a power base again in the Mid-Atlantic and Southern states

As for glow in the dark - if Warsaw is habitable and crops can be grown there after how many nukes it took then Norfolk definitely is as well - I don't see there being any lasting radiation in the area - especially with an airburst instead of a ground explosion

Also keep in mind just how big the area is around Norfolk and that we don't know the exact ground zero for the nuke - depending on where it went off there could be a lot of facilities that are still very useable

look at the tank plant in Ohio - if you look at HW that plant should have been nuked and gone - but if you look at the article on the tank plant in Challenge it survived intact - meaning that the nuke that hit the area was significantly off target or ground zero was nowhere near the plant -

and the base is huge - it wouldn't take much of a deviation for the nuke to leave large parts of it useable - if it went off right on top of the base it would leave the Naval Air Station and Virginia Beach untouched for instance

on the other hand if it went off over the Air Station then the naval base Is untouched - either way one single detonation is going to leave a lot of overall base area useable

[RN7]

Have you not read what I wrote? I have not claimed there absolutely were multiple warheads, just that's it's plausible!!!

Yes I have and to be honest I don't really have a much of a problem with a multiple warhead strike on Norfolk, but I would prefer if it was a plausible one.

And in the accompanying notes, which I have already quoted several times, it states not necessarily as a single weapon.

And it doesn't state that it was not a single weapon, and why give a list of targets with different megaton yield used against them if they were trying to imply that they were all being deployed from one missile?

Delaware city, Linden, Perth Amboy, Paulsboro, and Westville are all outside the probable area which one missile can deliver warheads. They are almost certainly a separate issue not relevant to Norfolk.

They are all located in the Middle Atlantic States according to Howling Wilderness. And yes they are all outside the probable area which one missile can deliver warheads, but they are in the same region as Norfolk.

The part where the GDW writers had access to updated information we do today?
The part where anything more modern is utterly irrelevant with respect to canon?

I haven't seen any reference by GDW that states that an R-36 (SS-18) missile was used on Norfolk, so why are you using the fact that GDW writers had access to updated information we do today when dismissing actual facts?

The missile (R-36M) which you are using as basis for a MIRV strike on Norfolk simply didn't exist by the time of the Twilight War. The reason it didn't exist was because its engineering design was flawed and the Soviet Union scrapped it and replaced it with the R-36UTTh in the mid-1980's and the R-36M2 from 1988. Both the R36UTTh and the R-36M2 were MIRV capable. But even if we ignore that the yields of the later two models warheads were not 0.5 Mt, both of these missiles were designed to hit hardened American ICBM silos not soft targets like Norfolk.

The rest......

You know in this post and the previous one your imply everything that you do yourself. In a post before that you used Wikipedia about the R-36 missile and Wikipedia didn't exist in the 1980's.

Norfolk is listed as been hit by a 1 MT strike. The Norfolk region is a big area and there are many other military and strategic targets in the Norfolk region but they are not listed as been hit by nuclear weapons. A 1 Mt warhead is a big nuclear warhead, it would have done enough damage on its own to destabilise the whole region.

[Raellus]

Hey guys, let's all just chill-the-ef-out, please.

These canon "debates" rarely lead to consensus. They've often led to user bans.

Sometimes you have to choose between being right and being a member of this community. Capiche?

Seriously, the game designers did the best that they could with the information that they had at the time. If it doesn't work now, it's up to the GM to "fix" it for his/her game world. Leave it at that. If one or two opinion posts don't change someone's mind, another dozen surely won't. Please leave the dead horse alone.

The Moderator Team

[WallShadow]

It seems that Western society has manufactured a culture of offence and people feel a need to take offence at the drop of a hat when none was ever intended.

How DARE you impugn Western Society's alleged oversensitivity! Flamethrowers at Dawn, Sir!;)

[Legbreaker]

Considering they brought them there when they could have sent them to the bases they have in New Jersey there had to be troops and facilities there that could support feeding and housing that many troops, let alone getting them re-organized back into fighting units.
Not necessarily.
When a force is sent overseas, they don't expect to have food and lodging ready and waiting for them do they?
It's possible TF34 included the logistical support they'd need for a month or so, although my guess is there was at least some sort of support already in place, otherwise they'd have probably landed somewhere less irradiated.
It's also worth noting from the mission orders: Upon arrival Norfolk, selected units will remain in service, and the remainder stood down for muster out.
Sounds to me like the majority would be demobilised and sent on their merry way. Of course how many is completely up to individual interpretation.
Most likely were logistic units of various types along with military police units to keep order as well.
These are probably the most likely to remain active the longest.

... 43,000 troops would go a long way towards giving them a power base again in the Mid-Atlantic and Southern states.
Except as we know 43,000 were not kept in service. This issue has been discussed in quite a bit of depth in other threads.

As for glow in the dark - if Warsaw is habitable and crops can be grown there after how many nukes it took then Norfolk definitely is as well - I don't see there being any lasting radiation in the area - especially with an airburst instead of a ground explosion.
Yes, but the main reason people were living in Warsaw was the radiation - it scared other, more predatory types away. Also those who remained generally had a pre-nuke attachment to the area.

Also keep in mind just how big the area is around Norfolk and that we don't know the exact ground zero for the nuke - depending on where it went off there could be a lot of facilities that are still very useable.
Very true.
Take a look at the nuke effects map I linked to earlier in the thread and you can see the likely damage areas. Outside those areas there's still quite a few useful facilities, although it's likely many people would have fled in the immediate period after the nukes from fear of fallout and follow up strikes. Some may have filtered back if food, etc supplies could be guaranteed, but most would probably either die of starvation, disease, radiation, exposure, marauders, etc, or have resettled in a better area.

on the other hand if it went off over the Air Station then the naval base Is untouched - either way one single detonation is going to leave a lot of overall base area useable
Another reason why multiple warheads are more plausible than a single one. What Soviet commander would leave half of the home port for the Atlantic fleet still intact?

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the nuclear strike that the Soviets launched had a lot of holes in it - there were a lot of facilities that were never touched, a lot of targets left off the list - in other words it dovetails with a limited war as the creators of the game stated

This wasn't an all out strike hitting every target there was - if that was true then places like Niagara Falls and Hoover Dam would have been gone for sure just to take out the huge hydro facilities there, let alone the big list of army and navy bases that were never hit

As for what Soviet commander would leave the port possibly intact? Keep in mind what we know from Last Submarine as to an oversight - that's a pretty big base for subs and it was left intact

[Legbreaker]

Last Sub doesn't actually give us any information on Norfolk though, just that the sub is to be transported there once recovered.

[Olefin]

Which shows that Norfolk is operational enough to base the sub there and prep her for the European mission - its a priceless asset as are the people who are manning her - they aren't going to risk them to radiation poisoning - so that pretty much shows Norfolk as being relatively radiation free, at least to where the sub is.

You don't bring that sub to an area full of radiation, expose priceless nuclear techs to that as well as the last crew you have and the strike team going with it when you could have it go somewhere else instead.

By the way what I was really referring to was the fact that the Soviets never nuked the sub base in Connecticut - as per Last Submarine it was intact till a mob overran it and destroyed it - way past the TDM

[Olefin]

Oh and by the way I am not saying the base is mostly intact or the nuke missed big time or whatever - that base is huge - and you aren't looking at being able to operate a lot of ships by 2001 - you are probably looking at small to medium area of the base that is radiation free that was unaffected by the nuclear strike and still able to support operating a few destroyers and smaller craft and has at least a few piers that can take unloading and docking ships the size of the Omega Task Force ships - which would also be able to handle one nuclear sub as well

but not one that if the Atlantic Fleet was still as big as it was pre-war could be supported in any way from that remnant of the base

[kato13]

The character biographies from the Last Sub series also mention the Naval Chief of Staff being in the Norfolk area. Given the power the remaining Joint Chiefs have, I certainly see them migrating towards areas where they can find support and infrastructure.

[RN7]

The character biographies from the Last Sub series also mention the Naval Chief of Staff being in the Norfolk area. Given the power the remaining Joint Chiefs have, I certainly see them migrating towards areas where they can find support and infrastructure.

From Armies of the Night, Page 3:

"The Characters are members of the US Army 5th Division recently returned to the United States from Europe. Characters from Europe will have crossed the Atlantic by means of Task Force 34, the evacuation fleet discussed in Going Home. After a long and mal de mer-ridden voyage, they returned to America and landed in Norfolk, Virginia, on November 25, 2000. There they were organised into a holding company pending further orders, and spent some brief time on garrison duty at the Military Government enclave in eastern Virginia. Finally, early in December, new orders came through from Norfolk."

So this would imply that there are functional docks and infrastructure in the Norfolk area that were able to process thousand of returning American troops from Europe, and that there is also a functional MilGov command structure in the Norfolk area.


Another reason why multiple warheads are more plausible than a single one. What Soviet commander would leave half of the home port for the Atlantic fleet still intact?

I would agree that an SLBM and not an ICBM was used against Norfolk, just not a MIRV strike. The SLBM would be an SS-N-6 SLBM with a single 1 Mt warhead which is what is listed in Howling Wilderness.

Why was Norfolk targeted by a SLBM and not an ICBM such as the SS-18 (R-36M)? For three reasons

1) The Thanksgiving massacre occurred in November 1997. The R-36M ICBM with 8 MIRV's was retired in 1983, that's a gap of 14 years.
2) The replacement for the R-36M (the R-36UTTh and R-36M2) were designed to attack hardened American ICBM silos not soft targets like Norfolk, and their warhead yields do not match the 0.5 Mt used on targets in the region.
3) GDW implies that the Soviets carried out an SLBM strike on targets across the Mid-Atlantic region.

From Allegheny Uprising...

Page 9: "With less than 10 minutes notice between the rising of sub-launched ballistic missiles from off the Atlantic Coast and their detonation over Washington DC"

Page 16: " Maryland was hit hard during the nuclear exchange, with SLBM strikes against Fort Meade (between Baltimore and Washington DC), Andrews Airforce Base (southeast of Washington), Fort Detrick (at Frederick), and Camp David (north of Frederick)"

[Olefin]

Completely agree with the SLBM attack as the most likely way that Norfolk got nuked

it also explains why the nuke was so large - i.e. the SLBM nukes weren't as accurate as the land based ones - so you go big against a big target knowing you may be off center but the big nuke still does the job

and we know that at least one Soviet ballistic missile sub had survived until TDM - from Boomer where it details that the sub launched several strikes and still survived to eventually be abandoned by her crew

[Legbreaker]

Which shows that Norfolk is operational enough to base the sub there and prep her for the European mission - its a priceless asset as are the people who are manning her - they aren't going to risk them to radiation poisoning - so that pretty much shows Norfolk as being relatively radiation free, at least to where the sub is.

You don't bring that sub to an area full of radiation, expose priceless nuclear techs to that as well as the last crew you have and the strike team going with it when you could have it go somewhere else instead.

I think for once you and I are actually in general agreement! *gasp!* :D
But, as JHart said, there's other facilities in the area which could be used in the event the military base itself was toast (or make likely targets themselves). Even with say 4 warheads of 250kt each, there's still going to be something which can be used by Milgov.

[Legbreaker]

The R-36M ICBM with 8 MIRV's was retired in 1983, that's a gap of 14 years.


Note that I originally picked the R-36M as just an example of what was possible. There's a number of missiles which could have been used.

SLBM's
R-27U with 200kt warhead
R-29R, 3 warheads of 500kt each
R-29RK, 7 warheads, 100kt each
R-29RL, 1 warhead of 450kt
R-29RM, 4 100 kiloton warheads
R-39 Rif, 10 warheads of 100-200kt each

ICBM's
UR-100N (Mod 3), 6 warheads of 400kt
RT-2PM Topol, 1 warhead, 800kt
R-36M2 Voevoda (SS-18 Mod 5), 10 warheads of .75-1Mt

Cruise missiles
Kh-80, 200kt - 6Mt

As can be seen, there's a great variety of missiles and warheads which could be used either at the same time, or spread over a period of several days.
In fact if it was indeed an SLBM, multiple warheads becomes much more likely.

[RN7]

ICBM's
UR-100N (Mod 3), 6 warheads of 400kt
RT-2PM Topol, 1 warhead, 800kt
R-36M2 Voevoda (SS-18 Mod 5), 10 warheads of .75-1Mt


I think it's unlikely that an ICBM was launched at Norfolk given that GDW states that most of the other targets in this region were hit by an SLBM. Also none of these ICBM's have a singular or combined warhead yield that equals 1.0 Mt or 0.5 Mt for the other targets in the region.

SLBM's
R-27U with 200kt warhead
R-29R, 3 warheads of 500kt each
R-29RK, 7 warheads, 100kt each
R-29RL, 1 warhead of 450kt
R-29RM, 4 100 kiloton warheads
R-39 Rif, 10 warheads of 100-200kt each


R-27U: In sources other than Wikipedia the yield of each warhead in the 2-MRV variant of the Mod 3 (R-27U) was estimated at 0.4 to 0.8 MT, and the yield of each warhead in the 3-MRV variant of the Mod 3 (R-27U) at 0.1 to 0.4 MT. So the warheads of the R-27U (Mod 3) do not have a singular or combined yield of 1.0 Mt.
R-29R: 3 warheads with a yield of 0.2 Mt. This does not have a singular or combined yield of 1.0 Mt.
R-29RK: 7 warheads with a yield of 0.1 Mt. This does not have a singular or combined yield of 1.0 Mt.
R-29RL: 1 warhead with a yield of 0. 45 Mt. This does not have a yield of 1.0 Mt.
R-29RM: 4 warheads with a yield of 0.1 Mt. This does not have a singular or combined yield of 1.0 Mt.
R-39 Rif: 10 warheads with a yield of 0.1 Mt. One missile with ten warheads launched at Norfolk !!!!! Then Task Force 34 won't sailing to Norfolk in 2000 will it?

And you missed the R-27 (SS-N-6) single RV Mod 1 and Mod 2 with a single 1.0 Mt warhead!!

Cruise missiles: Why launch an intermediate ranged cruise missile when it's so much easier to launch a longer ranged and much faster ballistic missile?

[RN7]

Although I would not quibble about the single 0.45 Mt warhead on the R-29RL. Its close enough to 0.5 Mt listed to have been used on other targets in the region,. But I still think the SS-N-6 (R27) with a single 1 Mt warhead is a better bet for Norfolk. Its matches the mega tonnage and will allow some infrastructure to survive and allow for a MilGov enclave to be established post TGM.