US Air Force Locations

[kalos72]

Has anyone done anything on all the various US Air Forces by chance?

Only one I am aware of 3rd/16th and 17th but weren't there a dozen more or something?

[Adm.Lee]

Pre-war, or in 2000?

[kalos72]

Post war / 2000ish

[ArmySGT.]

Has anyone done anything on all the various US Air Forces by chance?

Only one I am aware of 3rd/16th and 17th but weren't there a dozen more or something?

Anywhere the highway regulations were adhered to and a B-52, F-111, or B-1 can land, refuel, and rearm?

The revetments along the surviving portions of the Autobahn.

[pmulcahy11b]

Anywhere the highway regulations were adhered to and a B-52, F-111, or B-1 can land, refuel, and rearm?

The revetments along the surviving portions of the Autobahn.

That's true about the road lengths in Germany and Sweden, but not in the US.

There's a lot of those "revetments" in the ROK as well. (And mined MSRs. And sections of natural rock face in the mountains that are not natural. And...)

[mpipes]

I remember some discussions of BUFFS using highways, but the consensus was that it would likely tear up and buckle the concrete when landing. Its a pretty heavy plane, BUT it can fit on many Interstate Highways. I don't recall anything on the B-1B. The FB-111As I think were approved for emergency landings on Interstates; not sure about using one as an airfield but I'm pretty sure an Interstate can handle the weight of one without buckling.

ROK highway system is interspaced with sections specially reinforced for use as airfields. I never saw anything on exactly what they were suppose to handle, but I suspect they were designed with C-141s in mind. They definitely were intended to handle F-4s.

[Adm.Lee]

Re: interstates as landing strips: I do know about a T-33(?) that is/was enshrined along a Pennsylvania interstate (I-79 at I-90; Swaghauler may back me up on this?) as a veterans' memorial. According to my dad, the plane emergency-landed on a training mission on the interstate highway shortly before it was opened in the '60s, the plane was pushed off to the side, and turned into a park.

[kalos72]

I was thinking more along the lines of where all the different numbered Air Forces or wing would end up.

But the highway factoids were cool to know. :)

[Adm.Lee]

Would the Air Forces (as high-level formations) still exist? Might they be turned into rear-area/cantonment security groups by the NATO high command? Once the planes are grounded, you've got battalions of security troops and brigade-sized support-technical groups (wings), to take over rear-area security.

P.S. You've seen this, right? https://www.scribd.com/doc/37695/NATO-Order-of-Battle-1989 p. 37 is US Air Force in 1989, one could extrapolate for 1997, and then 2000, I think.

[Legbreaker]

I can't imagine too many planes being left in flyable condition anywhere. Many, many aircraft would have been destroyed through the war, either in the air or on the ground through nukes or conventional attack. The few that remained would suffer from lack of spare parts, and the last handful may not receive even the little maintenance that was possible as commanders put their limited resources towards maintaining the few vehicles they still have that could be actually used.
Seems likely that "wings" and "squadrons" are a thing of the past, at least in practice. The names may still exist, but that's about it.

[kalos72]

Perhaps, but if you can say that brigade of technicians that used to support the Air Force were "here", then that might give you a good sized technical force to help rebuild with.

Imagine what you could do with 3000 technicians and electronics experts if you had say two nuclear power stations in your campaign that needed rebuilding. All the materials in the world wont help if you have no one to install them.

Hardware/parts can be replaced or rebuilt, someone with the skill the install it is something else.

I am of the belief that SKILL is going to be the most rare and hardest to find commodity in 2000/2001.

[Legbreaker]

Except that 3,000 have already been either killed or reassigned (and then killed). They certainly won't be gathered up all in one spot doing nothing.
Support units probably took as much as a pasting in the war as combat units as the enemy sought to disrupt their opponents as much as possible.
Rear area units are generally somewhat less mobile than combat units, and so make much better nuke targets. They're also often located near transportation routes, power, food, and water supplies - all the things that enable them to do their job properly, but which are also important targets.

[ArmySGT.]

I was thinking more along the lines of where all the different numbered Air Forces or wing would end up.

But the highway factoids were cool to know. :)

Some Air National Guard units are co-located with civilian airports and may have survived if the civil target was spared. Additionally, the majority of Active Duty were probably killed and their equipment lost with the nuclear exchanges.

So, the proportion of Air National Guard and Reservists may be a higher percentage of those still capable of Service in T2K..... Same could be true among their naval counterparts.

[ArmySGT.]

But the highway factoids were cool to know. :)
It is why the landing gear of the B-52 and C-130 are built along the centerline of the hull. Other planes to, but I am a grunt not a zoomie.

U.S. Interstates are supposed to include mile long straight stretches without bridges, overhead structures, or things like power lines close to the path.

It was an Eisenhower administration stipulation in the 1950s when the nuclear fleet was intercontinental bombers. Even the rest stops are part of the plan.

[kalos72]

Sure they might not be in the same unit but they would be in the same theater at least. No one, at the time when the units air power was all gone/destroyed/out of fuel or parts, would have the ability to move them far from where they were stationed at that time.

According to that orbat, there were like a dozen at LEAST numbered Air Forces. Where would they have been stationed at the start of the war at least?

[swaghauler]

Re: interstates as landing strips: I do know about a T-33(?) that is/was enshrined along a Pennsylvania interstate (I-79 at I-90; Swaghauler may back me up on this?) as a veterans' memorial. According to my dad, the plane emergency-landed on a training mission on the interstate highway shortly before it was opened in the '60s, the plane was pushed off to the side, and turned into a park.

It did indeed land on I90 but it was no accident. It was a test of I90 for use as an emergency runway. The plane was actually ferried into the "park" and "decommissioned" according to Airforce directive. That "park" (and everyone thinks it is one) is actually the Erie Veteran's Cemetery. My grampa is buried under the right wing with another "Battered Bastard of Bastogne."

[swaghauler]

You'd NEVER be able to perform B52 or B1/B2 landing and take-off operations on the interstates in PA. The standards of construction for roads and bridges had fallen so far below standards in the 90's that they would just fall through the roadway's asphalt and crash.

Fighters could land and take off though.

[Adm.Lee]

It did indeed land on I90 but it was no accident. It was a test of I90 for use as an emergency runway. The plane was actually ferried into the "park" and "decommissioned" according to Airforce directive. That "park" (and everyone thinks it is one) is actually the Erie Veteran's Cemetery. My grampa is buried under the right wing with another "Battered Bastard of Bastogne."

Oh, well, it was a good story when I was 10.

[Adm.Lee]

Sure they might not be in the same unit but they would be in the same theater at least. No one, at the time when the units air power was all gone/destroyed/out of fuel or parts, would have the ability to move them far from where they were stationed at that time.

According to that orbat, there were like a dozen at LEAST numbered Air Forces. Where would they have been stationed at the start of the war at least?

Per that OOB, there's three Air Forces in Europe, and two designated to follow. If one assumes that a numbered Air Force is command-equivalent to a field army, I doubt there'd be more than those 4 (1 in UK, 3 in Germany, 1 in Spain). One of those might have gone to Norway, then moved to Germany when that front was shut down. The one in Spain probably managed the Mediterranean air war. Of the Air Forces in Germany, perhaps one managed the southern front, and two for east?

[Olefin]

Not sure about PA but the New York State Thruway was build to be used for emergency landings and takeoffs for bombers and fighters. I don't know if they were intended for operational loading (i.e. fully loaded with bombs and fuel) but there have been over 20 landings on the Thruway by various small planes over the years - they even have been charged for using the Thruway when then do so (in 1976 there was a 300 dollar fee charged for using the Thruway to take off)

Keep in mind that there are still operational planes in the US - but that most likely they are used very very sparingly due to fuel shortages - that's one reason my GM had the Texas module used as a (successful) MilGov invasion to get the refinery and the avgas its making

there is no way that the USAF has absolutely no fuel in the US -for one we know there are still operational refineries in CA, OK, and IL from various canon sources - however it is probably being conserved to absolute priority missions only - probably needing personal approval from the Joint Chiefs or the President for its use

[Legbreaker]

there is no way that the USAF has absolutely no fuel in the US -for one we know there are still operational refineries in CA, OK, and IL from various canon sources - however it is probably being conserved to absolute priority missions only - probably needing personal approval from the Joint Chiefs or the President for its use

There may indeed be a small supply of fuel, but the big problem is getting it to where it's needed without burning it all on the way there.
Pre-war distribution networks are gone, even loading up a few trucks and hauling it isn't going to be all that effective with the lawless state of most of the country, not to mention damaged bridges, tunnels, flooding, etc.

[RN7]

Has anyone done anything on all the various US Air Forces by chance?

Only one I am aware of 3rd/16th and 17th but weren't there a dozen more or something?


Check out Chico's site under Air Force Orbats..

https://sites.google.com/site/chico20854/home/air-force-orbats

[RN7]

Not sure about PA but the New York State Thruway was build to be used for emergency landings and takeoffs for bombers and fighters. I don't know if they were intended for operational loading (i.e. fully loaded with bombs and fuel) but there have been over 20 landings on the Thruway by various small planes over the years - they even have been charged for using the Thruway when then do so (in 1976 there was a 300 dollar fee charged for using the Thruway to take off)


The relative small size of some countries and the limited number of major airports and airbases would make this necessary due to the fact that they would be likely targets, but I think less so in America. Although some major American roads were undoubtedly designed with this in mind, I don't think the use of the road system by the military for emergency take off and landings is much of an issue due to the fact that the country is literally littered with runways both military and civilian.

California for example probably has nearly as many major runways (and minor ones) as the whole of Western Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_California

The other states...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_the_United_States

...and then click on the individual state.

[RN7]

Edwards is I think the runway capital of the world, dozens of them including a number of the worlds longest runways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_Air_Force_Base

[rcaf_777]

I can't imagine too many planes being left in flyable condition anywhere.

The US will still have a fair amount aircraft in the CONUS for bomber inception duty, no matter how bad the air war in Europe gets theses units are not going to short of aircraft.

The USAF even after the Nuclear strikes is still going to have around 70 airbases and another further 80 air national guard stations. (The majority of them located near an civilian airport.) These high numbers are due to Soviets targeting missiles silos and their headquarters and supporting structure.

All of theses bases are likely to have JP-8 fuel storage. who is going to use it? its not like you can burn it in a small single engine aircraft.

While is possible that some of the bases would be overrun by enemy troops or abandoned after the strikes. Many are going to in use after the strikes.

[Legbreaker]

All of theses bases are likely to have JP-8 fuel storage. who is going to use it? its not like you can burn it in a small single engine aircraft.

And how much of that fuel is going to be left after several years or warfare and two fronts on the north American continent? Not like it's being replenished is it?

[RN7]

The US will still have a fair amount aircraft in the CONUS for bomber inception duty, no matter how bad the air war in Europe gets theses units are not going to short of aircraft.

The USAF even after the Nuclear strikes is still going to have around 70 airbases and another further 80 air national guard stations. (The majority of them located near an civilian airport.) These high numbers are due to Soviets targeting missiles silos and their headquarters and supporting structure.

All of theses bases are likely to have JP-8 fuel storage. who is going to use it? its not like you can burn it in a small single engine aircraft.

While is possible that some of the bases would be overrun by enemy troops or abandoned after the strikes. Many are going to in use after the strikes.


I would agree that there will be many US aircraft in operational condition after the nuclear strikes. Considering the huge number of aircraft and helicopters that the US armed forces operated at this time that figure could be over one thousand operational aircraft worldwide. However the fuel to fly them and parts to keep them flying will be the problem. Pre-nuclear war stocks will dwindle between November 1997 and 2000, and we don't know if MilGov or CivGov is operating any refineries or has reactivated any factories to supply parts.

[Olefin]

Well we know that MilGov has operating refineries - there are mentions of them in Oklahoma and Illinois as well in Howling Wilderness - also the fact that much of what oil is being refined is being used to make lubricants - which leads to an obvious conclusion that they have refineries in operation.

As for spare parts and operational aircraft - we know that there are planes still flying in Iran and Saudi Arabia and from what Frank Frey has said in Kenya as well - meaning there are enough spare parts in those far flung areas to keep planes in the air (not a lot but enough)

given we are talking about CONUS spare parts to keep some planes going is not going to be a big issue or techs who know how to keep planes going - its more a question of how much jet fuel they are still producing and what would they consider a good reason to use those planes

remember we aren't talking huge forces of planes here - its probably more like small squadrons (about the size of what is flying in Iran) most likely based in places like Colorado Springs, Sacramento, Oklahoma, etc.. - meaning Air Forces whose whole complement could be a couple or three dozen or so planes of mixed types covering a wide area (again look at what the US still has flying in the RDF for a guide) based near where the fuel is either being manufactured or near where there are semi-reliable guarded transport networks to get it there - which in this case would probably be the OK to CO area that MilGov is guarding, down the Mississippi from Cairo to Memphis, or from the Bakersfield oil fields and refineries to Sacramento

there is still fuel being made even now - but remember that same jet fuel can also be used for tanks and other military vehicles as well - and there isn't a big air threat right now to make them direct that fuel from ground forces

In my campaign world after MilGov got the refinery going down in Texas again and they started making all that avgas they sent aerial tankers to get fuel to their other bases and also rebased planes into the area - again its where the fuel is

[rcaf_777]

And how much of that fuel is going to be left after several years or warfare and two fronts on the north American continent? Not like it's being replenished is it?

Fuel for Strategic Air Command units would be kept at close to maximum as possible as they have priority, no matter what is happening in other theaters.

Any other base would get fuel base on the duties they preform, and how much they had on hand at time of nuclear strikes would depend on

1. When was the fuel delivery and;
2. How much was delivered

So it’s a crap shoot

However the fuel to fly them and parts to keep them flying will be the problem. Pre-nuclear war stocks will dwindle between November 1997 and 2000, and we don't know if MilGov or CivGov is operating any refineries or has reactivated any factories to supply parts.

The Major US Aviation Depots are:

Naval Aviation Depot North Island
Naval Aviation Depot Pensacola – Closed in 1993
Naval Aviation Depot Norfolk – Closed 1993
Naval Aviation Depot Cherry Point
Oklahoma City Air Logistics Complex, AFB Tinker
Warner Robins Air Logistics Complex, AFB Warner Robins
Ogden Air Logistics Complex, AFB Hill
309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group, Tucson, Arizona

However I think you’re going to see major cannibalization of aircraft parts. Since you have only a few aircraft flying you have a fair bit of airframes to pick from, I made a concept of salvage teams who recovery parts and weapons. I thinking since you have extra techs those that are not working on aircraft are going scavenging for parts and fuel or security duty somewhere

For fuel as stated above if unit are using an existing airbase you have fuel on hand which can be rationed, I also think you see fuel scavenging/recovery teams going around to airbases, airports ect.

[.45cultist]

You'd NEVER be able to perform B52 or B1/B2 landing and take-off operations on the interstates in PA. The standards of construction for roads and bridges had fallen so far below standards in the 90's that they would just fall through the roadway's asphalt and crash.

Fighters could land and take off though.

In the 60's the highways had a foundation of concrete under asphalt, now it is just thicker asphalt. So old highways are GTG, new ones not so much.

[kalos72]

Those skilled resources are why I asked the initial question. Lots of things for them to do in a rebuilding US come 2000/2001.

As to fuel, what do you think would happen to Bryan Mound Strategic Petroleum Reserve in Texas, there is no mention of it anywhere in canon.

[RN7]

Well we know that MilGov has operating refineries - there are mentions of them in Oklahoma and Illinois as well in Howling Wilderness - also the fact that much of what oil is being refined is being used to make lubricants - which leads to an obvious conclusion that they have refineries in operation.

Howling Wilderness has the U.S. Army 194th Armoured Brigade guarding the oil refinery at Robinson, IL and a few functional oil fields surrounding it. However it also states that a recent accident severely damaged the plants last operating catalytic convertor, and the refinery is currently operating at one percent of its designed capacity. The brigade commander is also considering evacuating from Cairo, IL to Robinson and severing all ties with MilGov.

Doesn't give much information about refineries Oklahoma other than stating there are some or maybe one, and some oil wells. Reference to Colorado also supplying fuel, although that maybe from a depot of scavenged supplies.

[RN7]

Those skilled resources are why I asked the initial question. Lots of things for them to do in a rebuilding US come 2000/2001.

As to fuel, what do you think would happen to Bryan Mound Strategic Petroleum Reserve in Texas, there is no mention of it anywhere in canon.

There is no mention of a lot of things in canon. Brian Mound is located south of Houston so the oil or some of it may have been moved or even destroyed by evacuating US forces from Texas to deny to the invading Mexicans and Soviets.

[Olefin]

Fuel for Strategic Air Command units would be kept at close to maximum as possible as they have priority, no matter what is happening in other theaters.

Any other base would get fuel base on the duties they preform, and how much they had on hand at time of nuclear strikes would depend on

1. When was the fuel delivery and;
2. How much was delivered

So it’s a crap shoot



The Major US Aviation Depots are:

Naval Aviation Depot North Island
Naval Aviation Depot Pensacola – Closed in 1993
Naval Aviation Depot Norfolk – Closed 1993
Naval Aviation Depot Cherry Point
Oklahoma City Air Logistics Complex, AFB Tinker
Warner Robins Air Logistics Complex, AFB Warner Robins
Ogden Air Logistics Complex, AFB Hill
309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group, Tucson, Arizona

However I think you’re going to see major cannibalization of aircraft parts. Since you have only a few aircraft flying you have a fair bit of airframes to pick from, I made a concept of salvage teams who recovery parts and weapons. I thinking since you have extra techs those that are not working on aircraft are going scavenging for parts and fuel or security duty somewhere

For fuel as stated above if unit are using an existing airbase you have fuel on hand which can be rationed, I also think you see fuel scavenging/recovery teams going around to airbases, airports ect.

I completely agree with you about cannibalization being done to keep planes flying - using parts not only from military planes but also civilian ones as needed - that's current practice in Africa right now in real life - you see countries that officially have 12 jet fighters but what they really have is ten hangar queens and 2 that work with parts from all the others

Iran did that to keep their F-14's, F-4's and F-5's flying after our embargo as well - and its common wartime practice - that's how the US kept a small force of P-40's going in Bataan almost right up to the end and in the Aleutians, where spare parts were basically impossible to find, they used other planes as spare parts all the time - it would be common practice for them to get five new planes, give three to the squadrons and keep two for parts

[pmulcahy11b]

Would Fracking be taking place in T2K?

[Olefin]

This is from Wikipedia but shows clearly that fracking has been in use since the 50's in the US - so it would be happening in T2000 as well and they would have the tech for doing it well in place

Massive fracturing[edit]


Massive hydraulic fracturing (also known as high-volume hydraulic fracturing) is a technique first applied by Pan American Petroleum in Stephens County, Oklahoma, USA in 1968. The definition of massive hydraulic fracturing varies, but generally refers to treatments injecting over 150 short tons, or approximately 300,000 pounds (136 metric tonnes), of proppant.[29]

American geologists gradually became aware that there were huge volumes of gas-saturated sandstones with permeability too low (generally less than 0.1 millidarcy) to recover the gas economically.[29] Starting in 1973, massive hydraulic fracturing was used in thousands of gas wells in the San Juan Basin, Denver Basin,[30] the Piceance Basin,[31] and the Green River Basin, and in other hard rock formations of the western US. Other tight sandstone wells in the US made economically viable by massive hydraulic fracturing were in the Clinton-Medina Sandstone, and Cotton Valley Sandstone.[29]

Massive hydraulic fracturing quickly spread in the late 1970s to western Canada, Rotliegend and Carboniferous gas-bearing sandstones in Germany, Netherlands (onshore and offshore gas fields), and the United Kingdom in the North Sea.[28]

Horizontal oil or gas wells were unusual until the late 1980s. Then, operators in Texas began completing thousands of oil wells by drilling horizontally in the Austin Chalk, and giving massive slickwater hydraulic fracturing treatments to the wellbores. Horizontal wells proved much more effective than vertical wells in producing oil from tight chalk;[32] sedimentary beds are usually nearly horizontal, so horizontal wells have much larger contact areas with the target formation.[33]

Shales[edit]

Hydraulic fracturing of shales goes back at least to 1965, when some operators in the Big Sandy gas field of eastern Kentucky and southern West Virginia started hydraulically fracturing the Ohio Shale and Cleveland Shale, using relatively small fracs. The frac jobs generally increased production, especially from lower-yielding wells.[34]

In 1976, the United States government started the Eastern Gas Shales Project, which included numerous public-private hydraulic fracturing demonstration projects.[35] During the same period, the Gas Research Institute, a gas industry research consortium, received approval for research and funding from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.[36]

In 1997, taking the slickwater fracturing technique used in East Texas by Union Pacific Resources (now part of Anadarko Petroleum Corporation), Mitchell Energy (now part of Devon Energy), applied the technique in the Barnett Shale of north Texas.[33] This made gas extraction widely economical in the Barnett Shale, and was later applied to other shales.[37][38][39] George P. Mitchell has been called the "father of fracking" because of his role in applying it in shales.[40] The first horizontal well in the Barnett Shale was drilled in 1991, but was not widely done in the Barnett until it was demonstrated that gas could be economically extracted from vertical wells in the Barnett.[33]

[James1978]

The Major US Aviation Depots are:

Naval Aviation Depot North Island
Naval Aviation Depot Pensacola – Closed in 1993
Naval Aviation Depot Norfolk – Closed 1993
Naval Aviation Depot Cherry Point
Oklahoma City Air Logistics Complex, AFB Tinker
Warner Robins Air Logistics Complex, AFB Warner Robins
Ogden Air Logistics Complex, AFB Hill
309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group, Tucson, Arizona


That list needs to include the following:
- Sacramento Air Logistics Center - McClellan AFB, CA [1995 BRAC List]
- San Antonio Air Logistics Center - Kelly AFB, TX [1995 BRAC List]
- Naval Aviation Depot Alameda - NAS Alameda, CA [1993 BRAC List]
- Naval Aviation Depot Jacksonville - NAS Jacksonville, FL

For added measure, the Corpus Christi Army Depot is the Army's rotary-wing depot and is co-located with NAS Corpus Christi, TX.

[Olefin]

I would assume if you go with the original timeline where the Cold War never stopped that all the closed bases are very much alive

Whereas if you go with the V2 timeline the base closures may have occurred but probably not as many (i.e. its still not the Soviets collapse totally as per our timeline) so it would be up to each GM what bases are still around

[Olefin]

Howling Wilderness has the U.S. Army 194th Armoured Brigade guarding the oil refinery at Robinson, IL and a few functional oil fields surrounding it. However it also states that a recent accident severely damaged the plants last operating catalytic convertor, and the refinery is currently operating at one percent of its designed capacity. The brigade commander is also considering evacuating from Cairo, IL to Robinson and severing all ties with MilGov.

Doesn't give much information about refineries Oklahoma other than stating there are some or maybe one, and some oil wells. Reference to Colorado also supplying fuel, although that maybe from a depot of scavenged supplies.

FYI that refinery at Robinson has a pretty big capacity

So even reduced to 1 percent that still a capacity of 2060 barrels of oil per day with 390 barrels per day of gas and 785 barrels of diesel - i.e. 16,380 gallons of gas and 32,970 gallons of diesel - and that accident doesn't happen till the end of the year in 2001 - meaning that one refinery is making enough gas, oil, etc. in 2001 to easily support MilGov ops in Indiana, Illinois, Ohio with some shipped to Memphis

•Location: Robinson, Illinois, USA
•Capacity: 10.3 million tons/annum & 206,000 bbl/day

Refining Units
•Atmospheric Distillation, 206,000 bpd
•Vacuum Distillation, 71,500 bpd
•Delayed Coker, 29,000 bpd
•Fluidised Catalytic Cracker, 55,000 bpd
•Hydrocracking, 28,000
•Catalytic Reforming (Low Pressure), 78,000
•Naphtha Desulphurisation, 66,500 bpd
•Gasoline Desulphurisation, 39,000 bpd
•Diesel Desulphurisation, 78,500 bpd

[James1978]

I would assume if you go with the original timeline where the Cold War never stopped that all the closed bases are very much alive

Whereas if you go with the V2 timeline the base closures may have occurred but probably not as many (i.e. its still not the Soviets collapse totally as per our timeline) so it would be up to each GM what bases are still aroundQuite true. Even then, being on a BRAC List is not the same thing as actually being closed. It typically took several years for the actual closure to occur.

Naval Aviation Depot Pensacola and Naval Aviation Depot Norfolk didn't actually close in 1993, they were just on the 1993 BRAC List.

Having said that, anything on the 1988 BRAC List probably still closed in both V1 and V2 timelines.

[Olefin]

Quite true. Even then, being on a BRAC List is not the same thing as actually being closed. It typically took several years for the actual closure to occur.

Naval Aviation Depot Pensacola and Naval Aviation Depot Norfolk didn't actually close in 1993, they were just on the 1993 BRAC List.

Having said that, anything on the 1988 BRAC List probably still closed in both V1 and V2 timelines.

Yup agree with that for sure - if they closed it with the Cold War still in full swing they would have closed it in either timeline for sure

[RN7]

FYI that refinery at Robinson has a pretty big capacity

So even reduced to 1 percent that still a capacity of 2060 barrels of oil per day with 390 barrels per day of gas and 785 barrels of diesel - i.e. 16,380 gallons of gas and 32,970 gallons of diesel - and that accident doesn't happen till the end of the year in 2001 - meaning that one refinery is making enough gas, oil, etc. in 2001 to easily support MilGov ops in Indiana, Illinois, Ohio with some shipped to Memphis

•Location: Robinson, Illinois, USA
•Capacity: 10.3 million tons/annum & 206,000 bbl/day

Refining Units
•Atmospheric Distillation, 206,000 bpd
•Vacuum Distillation, 71,500 bpd
•Delayed Coker, 29,000 bpd
•Fluidised Catalytic Cracker, 55,000 bpd
•Hydrocracking, 28,000
•Catalytic Reforming (Low Pressure), 78,000
•Naphtha Desulphurisation, 66,500 bpd
•Gasoline Desulphurisation, 39,000 bpd
•Diesel Desulphurisation, 78,500 bpd


And these figures would be plausible if the oil was drilled near the Robinson oil refinery, but the oil supply (most of it) is not locally sourced and is transported to Robinson via three pipelines.


Capline Oil Pipeline: The pipeline originates at the St James Oil Terminal in Louisiana, passes near Memphis and terminates in the Patoka oil terminal in Illinois.


Pegasus Crude Oil Pipeline: The pipeline transports oil almost exclusively from Western Canada.


Woodpat Oil Pipeline: The pipeline runs from Wood River Illinois to Patoka oil terminal in Illinois and also connects with Kansas and Oklahoma.

A fourth is under construction at the moment.

Dakota Access Crude Oil Pipeline: Pipeline will bring shale oil from North Dakota via the Patoka oil terminal.


Although the Illinois Basin has historically been the third most oil productive area in the US. Much of the conventional oil was drilled out in the early to mid-20th Century and has been in decline since the 1950's. Most recent drilling has been centred on shale oil and gas. Oil fields in Illinois are primarily in the southern half of the state. Robinson is in the southern half of Illinois, but just barely and located in the extreme eastern part near the border with Indiana and most of the state's oil fields are not very near Robinson. In 1998, the average daily oil production from an Illinois well was only 1 to 2 barrels (42 to 84 gallons). So a small quantity of oil will be locally sourced to refine different oil products but nowhere near enough to support the figures in your list.

[Olefin]

And you may have just stated one of the reasons that MilGov moved an armored brigade from Texas to retake Memphis

i.e the Capline Oil Pipeline

Capline Oil Pipeline: The pipeline originates at the St James Oil Terminal in Louisiana, passes near Memphis and terminates in the Patoka oil terminal in Illinois.

And the Woodpat as you stated connects with Kansas and Oklahoma

Woodpat Oil Pipeline: The pipeline runs from Wood River Illinois to Patoka oil terminal in Illinois and also connects with Kansas and Oklahoma.

So the real question may be is are the pipelines still functional and if so at what capacity?

However even if the pipelines aren't functional Illinois makes more than enough oil to support that refinery - yes you are right about what the wells average but there a literally thousands of wells in the Illinois fields


Some figures - https://www.dnr.illinois.gov/OilandGas/Pages/AboutOilAndGasInIllinois.aspx

Oil & Gas Facts

Current Statistics
•There are approximately 32,100 oil and gas production wells, 10,500 Class II injection wells and 1,750 gas storage wells in Illinois.
•These wells are controlled by 1,500 operators.
•There is oil production in 40 of the 102 counties in Illinois. Most of the production is located in the southern part of Illinois.
•The oil producing area of Illinois is part of a geologic structure or province known as the Illinois Basin. The Illinois Basin covers southern Illinois, western Kentucky and western Indiana.
•Approximately 800 drilling permits for oil, gas and injection wells are issued each year.
•The majority of wells in Illinois are stripper wells with a daily production of 1.5 barrels per day

And all those wells produce a lot of oil

http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local/the-labor-of-energy-oil-in-central-illinois/article_be4ed152-f221-11e1-89ac-0019bb2963f4.html

“The Illinois Oil & Gas Association, which speaks for the industry, says there are some 16,000 active wells in 43 Illinois counties and at the last count these pumped 9 million barrels of crude a year. Add them to what are known as marginal wells and you’ve got a production source worth 915,000 barrels of oil a day or about 18 percent of total United States domestic production”

Thus even at only 1-2 barrels of oil per day, given that many wells you have more than enough oil to support that refinery at full capacity right thru to when the catalytic cracker accident happens in late 2001 - which would give MilGov the jet fuel they need for limited air operations - and as long as they have operational aerial tankers they can move fuel from IL to where it needs to go by air or by ground or river in very heavily guarded convoys

So actually the oil fields of Illinois can easily support full production at Robinson even if every pipeline is out of commission

[Olefin]

One thing I always keep in mind when I look at the canon is how much info we have now that the original writers either didn't have or didn't have easy access to. If you want to see how much oil is produced in IL it takes a few minutes now - back in the mid 80's and early 90's when they wrote the modules it meant digging in multiple libraries, writing letters, all kinds of things

so the canon writers very likely didn't know that the IL oil fields alone produce so much oil even with only 1-2 barrels a day - not with 13000 plus producing wells - whereas we can find it with a few clicks of a computer screen

thus could MilGov get fuel for a limited number of planes just from what the iL fields are producing thru the Robinson refinery - the answer is yes - but back then when the game was written good luck finding that kind of data when you were in a time crunch to get out new material

you aren't going to leisurely check out 10 different libraries and universities and send away for info when your editor is saying "where the heck is Howling Wilderness? what do you mean you have to delay three weeks while you research how much oil comes from IL - just get it on my desk by Monday!"

[kalos72]

Great posts Olefin! Thats why our campaign is in Texas. Sure there is alot of damage but if every well just trickles out a little oil every day, its going to add up.

Great stuff here!

[RN7]

And you may have just stated one of the reasons that MilGov moved an armored brigade from Texas to retake Memphis

Actually MilGov sent an infantry brigade (197th Infantry Brigade) from Texas to Memphis because it was under the grip of a feudal style warlord who was disrupting river traffic on the Mississippi River. Memphis is a major transportation hub because of its location on the Mississippi River and a convergence of numerous rail and highway links, and four rail and highway bridges cross the Mississippi River at Memphis. The fact that the Capline Oil Pipeline runs through Memphis was I think of little significance.

And the 194th Armored Brigade was moved to Cairo, IL because it is located on the confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers.

i.e the Capline Oil Pipeline

Capline Oil Pipeline: The pipeline originates at the St James Oil Terminal in Louisiana, passes near Memphis and terminates in the Patoka oil terminal in Illinois.

And the Woodpat as you stated connects with Kansas and Oklahoma

Woodpat Oil Pipeline: The pipeline runs from Wood River Illinois to Patoka oil terminal in Illinois and also connects with Kansas and Oklahoma.

So the real question may be is are the pipelines still functional and if so at what capacity?

Oil pipelines are made from steel or plastic tubes which are usually buried and they stretch for hundreds or even thousands of miles and need to be maintained. The oil flows through pipelines by pump stations which need electricity and also need to be maintained. Power and maintenance of oil pipelines are things that will be lacking in T2K.

Wood River was destroyed by a Soviet 1.5 Mt nuclear warhead in 1997, and the oil refining and storage facilities at Joliette and Lawrenceville were also destroyed.


However even if the pipelines aren't functional Illinois makes more than enough oil to support that refinery - yes you are right about what the wells average but there a literally thousands of wells in the Illinois fields

Some figures - https://www.dnr.illinois.gov/OilandGas/Pages/AboutOilAndGasInIllinois.aspx

Oil & Gas Facts

Current Statistics
•There are approximately 32,100 oil and gas production wells, 10,500 Class II injection wells and 1,750 gas storage wells in Illinois.
•These wells are controlled by 1,500 operators.
•There is oil production in 40 of the 102 counties in Illinois. Most of the production is located in the southern part of Illinois.
•The oil producing area of Illinois is part of a geologic structure or province known as the Illinois Basin. The Illinois Basin covers southern Illinois, western Kentucky and western Indiana.
•Approximately 800 drilling permits for oil, gas and injection wells are issued each year.
•The majority of wells in Illinois are stripper wells with a daily production of 1.5 barrels per day

And all those wells produce a lot of oil

http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local/the-labor-of-energy-oil-in-central-illinois/article_be4ed152-f221-11e1-89ac-0019bb2963f4.html

“The Illinois Oil & Gas Association, which speaks for the industry, says there are some 16,000 active wells in 43 Illinois counties and at the last count these pumped 9 million barrels of crude a year. Add them to what are known as marginal wells and you’ve got a production source worth 915,000 barrels of oil a day or about 18 percent of total United States domestic production”

Thus even at only 1-2 barrels of oil per day, given that many wells you have more than enough oil to support that refinery at full capacity right thru to when the catalytic cracker accident happens in late 2001 - which would give MilGov the jet fuel they need for limited air operations - and as long as they have operational aerial tankers they can move fuel from IL to where it needs to go by air or by ground or river in very heavily guarded convoys

So actually the oil fields of Illinois can easily support full production at Robinson even if every pipeline is out of commission

Most of the oil that was refined in Robinson before the nuclear strikes was transported by pipeline from Kansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Canada, not Illinois. So the infrastructure and logistics to ship oil from the Illinois oil wells to Robinson did not exist. Also most of the oil wells in Illinois are not near Robinson, many will be hundreds of miles away as Illinois is quite a big state.

Also According to Howling Wilderness on Page 39 "only a trickle of oil is produced by the fields of southern Illinois, but it's enough to keep the tanks and other vehicles of MilGov's Mississippi Valley enclave operating".

So unless the 194th Armored Brigade has access to a large fleet of mobile electricity generators and a functional fleet of mobile reverse circulation drills on hand they will be reverting to using the muscle power of men and work animals to drill oil. So as the 194th Armored Brigade had 400 troops in Cairo and 200 troops in Robinson how does that work?

[Olefin]

As I said Howling Wilderness most likely underestimated the amount of oil being produced in southern Illinois - I highly doubt that the people who wrote the module knew there were 13,000 active wells in the state at the time -

as for the muscle power of men and animals to drill oil -

you are assuming that the pump jacks were all running off the grid and thus need to now be powered by men or animals because there is no more power - but most pump jacks run off generators that run diesel fuel instead of the grid - and where you have multiple wells you would have a single generator running multiple pump jacks

As for where the fuel comes from – you could use tech that is very old and well known in the gas and oil industry to get a "teapot" refinery going to refine the diesel you need to keep the generator going - or you can convert the generator to run off alcohol just like in the game (the portable generators in the equipment list) and use that oil for other purposes

thus you don't need to be on mule or manpower to pump that oil – and while many oil wells in the state are only pumping 1-2 barrels per day there are lots of them pumping a lot more – and you could easily see the Army using their portable generators and vehicles to power those pumps and thus get the gas and oil and lubricants they need to keep them going

As for getting the oil to Robinson – I have a feeling the Army would come up with some nice incentives for people who haul oil there to make it into gasoline and jet fuel and other things they need – things like medical care, ammunition, weapon repairs, etc. – could see a whole barter system where oil arrives in a multitude of ways for trading it for useful items – a la Waterworld or Mad Max Thunderdome type set up

(that right there gives me a whole bunch of ideas for campaigns for the GM's in the crowd - "you need mortar rounds, well sure we got some for sale - that's two barrels of crude")

And I don’t see the 194th wasting away a la Howling Wilderness – if the country is falling apart and being in the military means you have guns and power to be able to get food and energy then I highly doubt they would have much trouble recruiting to keep their numbers up - especially if their running that refinery means they have access to all kinds of interesting things versus deserting and taking your chances

[kalos72]

That was always an issue for me, with all the units already in the States, how come NONE of them could do anything?

I mean there are almost 10000 troops just past the Texas border yet they cant clear 1000 near Waco? Sure fuel is low/out but they are infantry...

Anyway I digress...

[Olefin]

that is one area where my GM seriously differed from the canon writers - we basically used HW as good reference material but did not use what it said would happen to the country - for a multitude of reasons that have been previously debated here endlessly - but the units falling apart with enemy troops still on US soil being a big part of it - I highly doubt the 49th would just sit there and go to pot and let Texas stay part of Mexico without at least one last attempt to kick some butt for instance

and I look at Robinson as one place where the canon steps on its own toes - if all there is for that refinery is a trickle whats the big deal if its only down to one percent of capacity? One percent is over 2000 barrels of oil per day - 84000 gallons of oil products - that's a hell of a lot of gasoline and diesel and jet fuel and lubricants even at just one percent

and there are single wells in IL that are producing and have been producing 1700 barrels a day in that time period - so that one single well could just about give enough for one percent all on its own

in other words Illinois is hardly a wasteland with gas as rare as hens teeth even if all it can do is one percent - and before that accident it was at a lot more than that - something tells me if it was even at 20 percent there would have been a lot of recruiting to defend that kind of capacity - especially for an Armored Brigade that lives and dies on fuel

[RN7]

Now Olefin if we base our game of canon then we sort had have to stick with what canon says. A bit of expansion or filling in the blanks from what canon says or leaves out is one thing, but only to a point.

If we have a functional oil refinery and oil wells pumping out the quantities of fuel that you have listed for a number of years then we have the means to fuel a mechanised and motorised army and a sizeable air force on a relatively unlimited basis. If that is the case and MilGov is pumping out those levels of fuel since the TGM then the entire Mid-West and the Great Lake states will be cleared of any effective CivGov, New America or major marauder or unlawful forces well before 2000. Also it will affect other parts of America. With large quantities of refined fuel produced at Robinson then crude from Illinois, Oklahoma and Louisiana will allow MilGov to raise a powerful and motorised force to force the Mexicans out of the South-western states very quickly and the Russians will be running for the Bering Straits. Is this the situation in 2000?

Some information from Howling Wilderness

"The brigade (194th Armoured) main asset is the refinery at Robinson, Illinois, which is currently occupied with a force of 200 soldiers and five AFVs. This refinery (and the few functional oil fields surrounding it) is currently a major source of fuel for MilGov, and the brigade considers its defence and continued operations a major priority."

Canon states there are a few functional oil fields surrounding it, nothing more.

"only a trickle of oil is produced by the fields of southern Illinois, but it's enough to keep the tanks and other vehicles of MilGov's Mississippi Valley enclave operating".

That is fairly self explanatory.

"A recent accident (blamed on a lack of properly trained operating personnel) severely damaged the plant's last operating 'cat cracker', and the refinery is now only operating at about one percent of its designed capacity. The brigade formally traded gasoline for food with other communities in Illinois and Indiana, but the accident has forced it to choose between cutting back severely on its fuel shipments to Memphis."

MilGov does not have an abundance of trained personnel to operate and maintain the refinery or oil wells. It has also affected MilGov fuel shipments to Memphis.

" The brigade (197th infantry) is now responsible for administration and protection of western Tennessee (within 100 kilometres of the Mississippi). Refugees and marauders from the south and southeast will soon put increasing pressure on the brigade. How long it can remain in control of this area under the strain of these factors is no longer certain"

MilGov is having trouble controlling this region due to refugees and marauders.

"the large armored contingent will be helpful, but as food becomes more and more scarce, ethanol fuel (distilled from edible materials like grain) will have to be replaced by the less fuel efficient methanol (distilled from wood pulp and other inedible plant materials), and the range and effectiveness of the armor (197th Infantry Brigade) will be reduced to a considerable extent"

The 197th Infantry Brigade in Memphis is no longer receiving no fuel supplies from Robinson and is having to resort to using distilled methanol in its vehicles.

"In any case the refinery at Robinson will soon become a target for marauders from the south and east, and this concerns the brigade (194th Armored) commander"

If the heavily armed MilGov base at Robinson is a target for marauders, what does that say about the security situation in Illinois and the security of the dispersed oil wells that are littered across the remote countryside of the state?.

" He (the commander of the 194th Armored Brigade) is rumoured to be considering a move to evacuate Cairo in favor of Robinson and then sever all ties with MilGov"

The commander in Robinson is clearly not that bothered about supplying MilGov with oil.

[Olefin]

As I said before HW is one module that has been discussed to death and whose many plot holes and contradictions with earlier Modules I won't even start to get into. As for your earlier points - one refinery operating at full capacity is hardly going to be the huge change to canon you point it out as being. Would it being fully operational give the 194th and the 197th enough fuel to be fully operational while still leaving enough left over to provide a limited amount of jet fuel for MilGov - the answer is yes. Would that mean a huge change to the game that you have stated? The obvious answer is no. All by itself the Robinson refinery running at full capacity couldn't even begin to make enough fuel to change the strategic picture in the US. But what it could do is provide enough fuel to make possible limited transport flights and the occasional use of remaining attack aircraft. It could give the 194th and the 197th and most likely the 49th the fuel to operate and do proper patrols and maybe limited offensive actions - but that's about it.

Meaning it helps MilGov stabilize a limited area and have some air ops possible - which is hardly the complete game changer you paint. If you think that then if the Soviets get their hands on the refinery in Texas then surely the Mexican and Soviet flag will be flying over half the country soon. It takes a lot more than one refinery working at full capacity to change the game and the world as much as you describe

[Olefin]

as for maintaining the oil wells - most of the oil wells in Illinois are old fashioned wells that are on individual people's property - wells based on old technology that don't break down that often, run in many places by small companies - we aren't talking nuclear reactors here or computerized pumping systems - many of them are using tech straight out of the 1940's to run

now the refinery is different - but again you can refine gas and oil with teapot refineries in small quantities - and since you mention canon, per canon that is exactly what the Libyans are doing - so if they can do it so can the good people of Illinois - you dont need skilled techs for that

and no matter how much fuel the refinery there is processing - that mechanized and mobile army that uses it to drive out every invader doesn't exist anymore - and if it did exist you would need a hell of a lot more than just Robinson to provide fuel to it - not when that oil its processing needs to make jet fuel, diesel fuel, lubricants (which per canon is what most refineries still in production are making so that the vehicles that burn alcohol can keep running - no matter how much ethanol you make you still need oil for the engine), gasoline, etc.. - so its not all going into the fuel tanks of MilGov

and the other thing that HW gets wrong - and thats where it contradicts earlier canon statements - is that it seems that MilGov isnt fighting very hard to keep the areas that are still producing fuel protected and going concerns - pulling out of Bakersfield, letting the Oklahoma wells and refineries get overrun, letting the 194th waste away and not reinforce it with everything they had to protect Robinson and the oil wells in Illinois when they had tens of thousands of newly arrived troops in VA

and how does it contradict it - because there are multiple statements in different modules that state where there is oil you will find the war still going on and that is where you will find operating aircraft and tanks and vehicles - which is why the US is fighting so hard in Iran still when they left Europe to its own devices - because that is where the oil is

yet in the US, MilGov, with enemy forces still sitting in Alaska and the Southwest and New America on the rise, doesnt put everything it has into guarding whats left of that fuel and the refineries - and with the food situation in the US what they are doing is especially dumb because oil means you can run tractors and plant seed and harvest crops and you can do it without starving your people by having to do it with ethanol

so you bring home 43,000 men and dont send a bunch of them to make sure that no matter what you hold onto those remaining oil fields and refineries and keep them going when doing so is probably the best bet you have to be able to get in a decent crop and also get the Southwest back in the process? Let alone why waste your men on an offensive to kick New America out of the Ozarks and then not send reinforcements for the two most important oil producing areas you have left and one of the biggest refineries you have left? I would think that making sure you can still operate aircraft and be able to plant crops a lot more efficiently is worth at least a couple of thousand men at least.

This is a game about what was then a plausible possible future when it was originally written - and if you so then you really need to have military commanders not make completely implausible decisions. Especially when you have MilGov which is not under civilian command and thus can ignore political needs for purely strategic ones. Like being able to keep its few remaining tanks and armored vehicles in the field and to be able to plant crops to feed those 43,000 men it just brought home by protecting the oil that can do that. That's a decision a military chief would make - abandoning it is not.

[RN7]

As I said before HW is one module that has been discussed to death and whose many plot holes and contradictions with earlier Modules I won't even start to get into. As for your earlier points - one refinery operating at full capacity is hardly going to be the huge change to canon you point it out as being. Would it being fully operational give the 194th and the 197th enough fuel to be fully operational while still leaving enough left over to provide a limited amount of jet fuel for MilGov - the answer is yes. Would that mean a huge change to the game that you have stated? The obvious answer is no. All by itself the Robinson refinery running at full capacity couldn't even begin to make enough fuel to change the strategic picture in the US. But what it could do is provide enough fuel to make possible limited transport flights and the occasional use of remaining attack aircraft. It could give the 194th and the 197th and most likely the 49th the fuel to operate and do proper patrols and maybe limited offensive actions - but that's about it.

Meaning it helps MilGov stabilize a limited area and have some air ops possible - which is hardly the complete game changer you paint. If you think that then if the Soviets get their hands on the refinery in Texas then surely the Mexican and Soviet flag will be flying over half the country soon. It takes a lot more than one refinery working at full capacity to change the game and the world as much as you describe

According the Red Star/Lone Star the Soviets are in control of the Port Isabel refinery, but the offshore Gulfwind Forty oil rig which is still connected to it is under the control of a large Mexican criminal organisation and a small group of Texan marauders.

Also what the Soviets have in Texas and the rest of the south-west is all that they have. Even Soviet forces in Alaska/Western Canada have no hope of reinforcement from the Soviet Union. If they get regular oil supplies it will help them to consolidate their defensive position but no more. The Mexicans are not in much better shape.

MilGov on the other hand has access to about 90% of the remaining US military assets in CONUS, and a great deal of the surviving resources and population of the United States. If Robinson is running from the end of 1997 into 2000 with a regular and large oil supply on the scale you are implying without any real threat, then you have a very sound platform to rebuild the US military in this region. The tanks/AFV listing of each unit is what they have running, not other vehicles that could also be running if there is fuel available. The US military had thousands of tanks, and tens of thousands of other armoured, support and lighter armoured vehicles. Many of these never left CONUS and all of them have by no means been destroyed since the nuclear strikes.

With Robinson running before its accident in 2001 MilGov would have raised a large mechanised and well armed force, and if you add air power then CivGov and New America won't stand a chance. By 2000 the Mid-West and Great Lakes should be totally under the control of MilGov. MilGov would also have expanding its authority into New England, the Mid-Atlantic states and the south, and across the west as far as the frontlines in Texas, California and maybe into Canada.

[kalos72]

The difference here is reality vs canon.

Canon was designed to make the outlook bleak. Its suppose to feel like the end is near and every decision the PC's make could mean the end of it all.

But the reality is, if even 1% of the possible oil in Illinois was pumping, MILGOV should have been able to control much larger sections of the country and the rebuilding process wouldn't be so "apocalyptic".

But I would argue that canon doesnt say that there isn't any fuel, just a trickle. 1% of total production could be construed as a trickle. But MILGOV has been inadept at doing anything with the resources it has at its disposal.

If they weren't, the look feel of the game wouldn't be the same...

[Legbreaker]

And that right there is a MAJOR point some people seem to want to forget.
Reality has little place in T2K. It's a game and has the world set up in a certain way to make it an enjoyable and challenging game. It doesn't matter that the US had thousands of AFVs in the mid 90's, or a significant ability to produce and refine oil - there's been 5 years of warfare, including nukes, civil disruption, fighting on home soil on not one, but two fronts, and numerous other factors.
It doesn't really matter so much how the world got into the state it's in, but that it is in that state.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the canon does not say the Soviets have control of the refinery or that the marauders and criminals have control of the offshore platform - what it says is that is what the criminals and marauders have control of both and that the Soviets are trying to take both over - and that if they do get both (i.e. unless the players can stop them) then the Soviets will have access to all kinds of fuel including aviation fuel for their grounded attack helicopters - give them that fuel and its a whole new ballgame in Texas for them

Same for the Mexican troops there - get access to all that fuel and basically you can kiss the Grange and other resistance forces goodbye - and there goes Kingsley and Texas

and its pretty obvious that Cummings and CivGov did have access to oil and fuel from 1997 to 2000 - they fought the Mexican invasion force and there were air battles as part of that invasion - and they shipped several divisions overseas as well as fought the Soviets and Mexicans that whole time

so they did have that fuel at least thru 1999 - and eventually what was left of the grid went down and stopped most of what production was left - one refinery cant do it all - it cant make fuel, lubricants, bunker and diesel oil for power, etc. for the entire Midwest- but what it can do is keep a small amount of planes in the air, provide fuel for the tanks they have left and provide fuel to grow food for where MilGov has its troops that can get that fuel and probably keep the lights on in a few select factories making mortar rounds and spare parts and reloads

[Olefin]

And that right there is a MAJOR point some people seem to want to forget.
Reality has little place in T2K. It's a game and has the world set up in a certain way to make it an enjoyable and challenging game. It doesn't matter that the US had thousands of AFVs in the mid 90's, or a significant ability to produce and refine oil - there's been 5 years of warfare, including nukes, civil disruption, fighting on home soil on not one, but two fronts, and numerous other factors.
It doesn't really matter so much how the world got into the state it's in, but that it is in that state.

And if you ignore HW and Kidnapped then its in a totally different state - I prefer to go with the modules that actually show MilGov and CivGov are starting to return order - and not with a drought that would kill off the country for good no matter what they do or with military units somehow unable to recruit in their own country when the Germans and Brits and others were able to do so for years of war in their countries

[kalos72]

And that right there is a MAJOR point some people seem to want to forget.
Reality has little place in T2K. It's a game and has the world set up in a certain way to make it an enjoyable and challenging game. It doesn't matter that the US had thousands of AFVs in the mid 90's, or a significant ability to produce and refine oil - there's been 5 years of warfare, including nukes, civil disruption, fighting on home soil on not one, but two fronts, and numerous other factors.
It doesn't really matter so much how the world got into the state it's in, but that it is in that state.

So in your game does the world die in 2000/2001? Cause if you follow HW to the letter like your implying everyone should, no one will be able to grow enough food to feed themselves in 2000/2001.

Germany UK France, etc will all survive with arguably more nuclear tonnage being dropped on them, but the US will die. MILGOV/CIVGOV will implode and the rest of the country falls into Morrow-esque type of world.

The FACT is no canon reference says "the MILGOV only had 10000 gallons of diesel", the writers kept it vague for many reasons. One, they didnt want to spend months doing the research and two to allow the players some room to grow and move around in the general outline they devised.

Who wants to play through a scenario that, regardless of what they do or how well they perform, their government still dies and the US is lost? Thats what HW does to the world IMHO...

[Olefin]

the math from HW and Kidnapped basically shows that drought as killing off the country - half is still alive - but there is only enough food that can be grown due to the drought to feed 1/4 of what is left - meaning 1/8th the pre-war population - so now you have a huge die off in a very short time among already weakened survivors combined with fighting for whats left ruining whats planted, widespread disease finishing off the survivors from millions of dead bodies rotting unburied because there wont be anyone left to bury them, etc. - meaning by years end most likely you are looking at 1/16th to 1/32nd the population still left alive maybe (in an optimistic projection)

That's not Twilight 2000 - that's Morrow or Aftermath

and yet somehow per 2300 the US reunites within 20 years of a catastrophe like that and gets back into space that same century?

that's why I go with the earlier modules - and stay with Twilight 2000 style gaming

[kato13]

I had a gaming group that was working with the 194th and the refinery.

Trying to figure out what to do with the myriad of refined products was an adventure (in research) in its own right.

There would be literally tons of asphalt and other slag elements similar to coal tar.

A huge majority of modern chemistry evolved out of finding uses for the "waste" products of coal and oil.

Just being able to produce items available in 1900 would be amazing. Aspirin, DDT, and several synthetic fertilizers fit that bill so they were given priority.

This campaign ended with out too many sessions (people went off to college), but I always considered it a interesting seed for those more on the rebuilding side of the spectrum of campaigns.

[Olefin]

I had a gaming group that was working with the 194th and the refinery.

Trying to figure out what to do with the myriad of refined products was an adventure (in research) in its own right.

There would be literally tons of asphalt and other slag elements similar to coal tar.

A huge majority of modern chemistry evolved out of finding uses for the "waste" products of coal and oil.

Just being able to produce items available in 1900 would be amazing. Aspirin, DDT, and several synthetic fertilizers fit that bill so they were given priority.

This campaign ended with out too many sessions (people went off to college), but I always considered it a interesting seed for those more on the rebuilding side of the spectrum of campaigns.

let alone all the fun involved in getting oil to the refinery - possibly setting up a barter system - so much oil delivered from wells you get X amount of trade goods or products from the refinery as pay

[kalos72]

I even tried to apply the 4th edition MP rules to the economy...haven't worked it all out yet.

[Legbreaker]

So in your game does the world die in 2000/2001? Cause if you follow HW to the letter like your implying everyone should, no one will be able to grow enough food to feed themselves in 2000/2001.

Of course not. The world in 2000/01 is on the ropes, a hairs breadth from the abyss but not gone yet. PCs actions can either give it that last shove, or help build something new and hopefully better. There's still a long way to fall though before it's hopeless, perhaps another 10-20% of the population to die world wide before stability and adaptation to the changed global conditions is reached.

HW deals with North America, specifically the US. This one small area is not the entire world. Other areas may have had their climate improved and wide scale migration to those areas will have to take place. Nobody can afford to presume what worked pre-war will work to keep them alive in the aftermath. HW actually states several areas are not absolutely cataclysmic. The Great Lakes region is still able to produce vast amounts of food, sufficient to help support the reduced population provided it can be distributed, or the people moved closer (and civil unrest kept under control). The Pacific North West is receiving torrential amounts of rainfall. It will take time to adapt to the climatic changes, but it's not the end of the world.

The Drought may not last more than a few short years - that's up to individual GMs to decide. The planet will heal itself, all the quicker given the drastically reduced pollution from humans.

[kalos72]

Of course not. The world in 2000/01 is on the ropes, a hairs breadth from the abyss but not gone yet. PCs actions can either give it that last shove, or help build something new and hopefully better. There's still a long way to fall though before it's hopeless, perhaps another 10-20% of the population to die world wide before stability and adaptation to the changed global conditions is reached.

HW deals with North America, specifically the US. This one small area is not the entire world. Other areas may have had their climate improved and wide scale migration to those areas will have to take place. Nobody can afford to presume what worked pre-war will work to keep them alive in the aftermath.

So again, Germany is fine, no climate changes cause nothing was ever said about it. But the US with less tonnage and less war effects, is sent into a solar oven?

And I think your going off canon with this 10-20% number...

But my reference was as it relates to the US, since HW only really deals with the US. And what exactly is a group of PC's going to do to save the US at this point? There is no food, no water and the government is dieing off...the scale is too far out of proportion here.

[Legbreaker]

Climatic changes are really only starting to be felt when the game shifts focus from Europe. There was no real need to detail what was going on there, but GMs are certainly free to apply similar upheavals.

PCs can't do anything about the climate, that's far beyond the scope of the game. Only massive civil engineering projects will help there (new dams, railroads and other similar infrastructure). They can however be very effective as "trouble shooters", such as in Kidnapped where they're tasked to essentially clear the way for the Civgov relocation. Another example is Satellite Down where their recovery of the weather data will give the authorities a massive assist in planning how to deal with the next few years.

Failure in their mission(s) would help tip the world (or at least the world as far as they're concerned) over the brink.

[Olefin]

HW basically kills the game in NA - I think its one reason they switched to back to Europe modules - its one thing to play the game per the NYC, Texas, Allegheny Uprising Modules - its another to try to play a campaign where 3/4 of the surviving population is set to starve in the next six months battling like animals over what is left of the food while what remains of the government and military completely collapse - even at its worst Poland is a lot better off than what HW paints for the US

as for areas still producing food - they would be inundated under hordes of starving refugees - it would be like fighting a zombie horde in The Walking Dead or World War Z - and since they have nothing to lose because there isn't any food I highly doubt by the time it was all said and done there would be anything left of civilization to rebuild given the drought as painted in HW and Kidnapped

if I want to play a campaign in that kind of situation I will stick to Fallout

[Legbreaker]

even at its worst Poland is a lot better off than what HW paints for the US

Umm, not so. Look at Silesia and it's 97% casualty rate as per Black Madonna.
The rest of Poland isn't all that much better with 77% casualties (East Europe Sourcebook) and a LOT more radioactive craters.

[kalos72]

Well as for Poland, it received less then half the total hits at only 20% of the tonnage the US did and NONE of them were ground hits so residual radiation is not an issue.

So again, according to canon, Poland is safer and has a better change to survive then the US and HW pushes it over the top with the weather changes, that no other country is experiencing.

[Legbreaker]

That's Strategic warheads. It doesn't include the multitude of tactical warheads used by both sides.
Poland has been utterly thumped. It's also suffered hundreds of thousands of troops and vehicles thundering across the countryside destroying anything in their way. Poland is probably the most damaged region on the planet in 2000.

[kalos72]

But again, canon doesnt say that Poland is so dead no one can grow food like it points out in HW for the US. It doesnt even really count radiation as an ever constant concern...

So what your saying is partly assumption...extrapolating information from various data points to meet a conclusion. Not necessarily canon fact...

[Legbreaker]

The main problem the US has is water. If water could be supplied by rainfall or irrigation, many problems would be almost immediately solved (or at least when the harvest came in).
Yes there are other factors, but water really is the big one as illustrated in Kidnapped.
Howling Wilderness also reiterates this point in the description of the Great Lakes region - rainfall has fallen about half normal, but they're still able to grow significant amounts of food.
With the drastically reduced population (roughly half pre-war), total food production would be sufficient to feed the country, if only they could get it to rain! The first group that solves the water problem (or is lucky enough to occupy an area that receives decent and sustained rainfall) is going to have a huge advantage over the coming years. This is one of the reasons the information on the tapes in Satellite Down is so valuable.

[Olefin]

Umm, not so. Look at Silesia and it's 97% casualty rate as per Black Madonna.
The rest of Poland isn't all that much better with 77% casualties (East Europe Sourcebook) and a LOT more radioactive craters.

The East Europe Sourcebook has a bunch of holes in it - not exactly the most reliable source of information - which has been discussed a lot as well.

And Silesia has an organized government and military, functional towns and some industry and grows enough food to not only feed itself but export some to Krakow - I will check my copy of Black Madonna but I don't remember a 97% casualty rate - maybe in the cities that got nuked

[kalos72]

Per HW regarding 2000/2001:
"and that the harvest, when it did come, would not feed a quarter of the surviving populace."

Thats pretty severe alright...not to mention the fact the government has no way to distribute all that food.

So we lose roughly 60% the first time around, and by 2000 another 75% of those survivors.

[Olefin]

The main problem the US has is water. If water could be supplied by rainfall or irrigation, many problems would be almost immediately solved (or at least when the harvest came in).
Yes there are other factors, but water really is the big one as illustrated in Kidnapped.
Howling Wilderness also reiterates this point in the description of the Great Lakes region - rainfall has fallen about half normal, but they're still able to grow significant amounts of food.
With the drastically reduced population (roughly half pre-war), total food production would be sufficient to feed the country, if only they could get it to rain! The first group that solves the water problem (or is lucky enough to occupy an area that receives decent and sustained rainfall) is going to have a huge advantage over the coming years. This is one of the reasons the information on the tapes in Satellite Down is so valuable.

To have that kind of drought affect the whole country you would have to have had a much worse exchange than happened - you basically need to disrupt the Gulf Stream and the El Nino and the hurricane cycle - and if they had used that many nukes I doubt there would have been many survivors at all - especially since to disrupt the Gulf Stream on any large scale you basically would have to blow a bunch of holes straight thru Florida

and it would take several failed winters, not just one or two to drain lakes, ponds and especially rivers to where they couldn't be used for irrigation - and you can pull water out of them in multiple ways that have nothing to do with needing electrical power - if the Ancient Egyptians, Babylonians and Persians could do it so could a farmer in Nebraska or Virginia

especially with the loss already of half the population - that would have already reduced greatly the pressure on the water supply

the drought is basically a deux ex machina to kill off any chance of the US rising again in time to threaten the French hegemony from the 2300 game - one that anyone who can do math can see would reduce the US not just a howling wilderness but an almost totally depopulated one

simple math - 3/4 of the remaining population cant be fed and takes on the 1/4 that can be fed - and destroys basically all the remaining food and fields that make that food in the process - its called everyone dies - especially once the typhus epidemic from all those dead bodies lying around kills off anyone who actually survives all the fighting - starving people don't usually make good grave diggers

like I said if I want to play that game I will fire up Fallout or dig out my old copy of Aftermath

but I prefer to play Twilight as a military game that has fun aspects where you interact with whats left of civilization trying to rebuild - not fighting in the burning wreckage for the last can of beans left in Illinois or Iowa

[Legbreaker]

The East Europe Sourcebook has a bunch of holes in it - not exactly the most reliable source of information - which has been discussed a lot as well.
Is there a book you actually agree with? Seems like everything had holes in it according to you. Meanwhile many of us are happy to work with what we've got and make it work rather than continually attempt to pull it down.
And Silesia has an organized government and military, functional towns and some industry and grows enough food to not only feed itself but export some to Krakow - I will check my copy of Black Madonna but I don't remember a 97% casualty rate - maybe in the cities that got nuked
Barely functional and nothing like what remains elsewhere. Poland really has been bombed back to the middle ages and it's feudal/despotism systems.
Spring of 1998 brought no relief. Those who survived the bombings, the invasion and the nuclear devastation were now struck by plague and famine. From a prewar population of 3,000,000, fewer than 100,000 survive, scattered throughout Silesia.
100,000 / 3,000,000 = 0.033333 remaining. Close enough to 97% casualties.

[Legbreaker]

So we lose roughly 60% the first time around, and by 2000 another 75% of those survivors.

In some areas yes. In other areas food is sufficient, if barely. Eventually the population will have shifted and the climate recovered enough to support the survivors. The challenge facing the various authorities is to ensure the maximum amount of people survive.

Yes, it's bleak, but there's certainly worse places on the planet, and at least it wasn't a MAD situation, or anything as bad as depicted in the films of the 70's and 80's such as "The Day After", "Threads", or "Testament".

[kalos72]

That Saving Davis Monthon write up lists the 1st and the 14th in MILGOV control, possibly in Colorado.

Do they make Air Force ORBATS that include nor "flight" units? Ill have to check the published 1996 ORBAT again...

[WallShadow]

The main problem the US has is water. If water could be supplied by rainfall or irrigation, many problems would be almost immediately solved (or at least when the harvest came in).
Yes there are other factors, but water really is the big one as illustrated in Kidnapped.
Howling Wilderness also reiterates this point in the description of the Great Lakes region - rainfall has fallen about half normal, but they're still able to grow significant amounts of food.
With the drastically reduced population (roughly half pre-war), total food production would be sufficient to feed the country, if only they could get it to rain! The first group that solves the water problem (or is lucky enough to occupy an area that receives decent and sustained rainfall) is going to have a huge advantage over the coming years. This is one of the reasons the information on the tapes in Satellite Down is so valuable.

If one cannot make it rain, one must manufacture potable/irrigation water--from seawater. Desalination on a widespread, low-level basis could turn the tide (no pun intended) in getting water to crops, at least in the vicinity of tidal areas. New Jersey, whose sandy soils have historically been bountifully productive, would naturally benefit from multiple small and widely distributed desalination plants along its relatively close coast. With Ft. Dix in the north and Cape May Coast Guard base in the south, there are plenty of security personnel who would in turn be supplied by the crops and facilities they guard. And to tie it together, the Cold Fusion McGuffin would be the perfect small power source to drive the pumps for processing and distribution of useable water.

Slightly off-topic Note: the "Rock In Troubled Waters" article about South Jersey accurately relates the large correctional facilities in the southern part of the state: South Woods correctional facility meat and produce processing facility in South Bridgeton and the Bayside facility in Leesburg on rt 47. really exist. Considering the hostility of the world environment outside the walls, my guess would be that many prisoners would welcome a "work-release" points-toward-parole arrangement in exchange for raising and processing agricultural products, which would also be their sustenance. And the flip side would be that transgressions would be dealt with severely. Behave and work, and you get to eat, have protection, and earn your pardon. Otherwise....

[Legbreaker]

Slightly off-topic Note: the "Rock In Troubled Waters" article about South Jersey accurately relates the large correctional facilities in the southern part of the state: South Woods correctional facility meat and produce processing facility in South Bridgeton and the Bayside facility in Leesburg on rt 47. really exist. Considering the hostility of the world environment outside the walls, my guess would be that many prisoners would welcome a "work-release" points-toward-parole arrangement in exchange for raising and processing agricultural products, which would also be their sustenance. And the flip side would be that transgressions would be dealt with severely. Behave and work, and you get to eat, have protection, and earn your pardon. Otherwise....

A number would have also found themselves in the military as indicated by the 2.x character generation rules. Could be a few "dirty dozen" type units formed up...briefly. ;)

[WallShadow]

A number would have also found themselves in the military as indicated by the 2.x character generation rules. Could be a few "dirty dozen" type units formed up...briefly. ;)

Even so: The Pisecki Commando, comprised of former law enforcement officers and Philadelphia Chinese street gang members, again, as mentioned in "A Rock in Troubled Waters".;)

And Northern/Central Jersey has two Youth Correctional farms and a couple of adult agribusiness correctional farms for the Ft. Dix enclave to manage.

Oh, yeah, another light went on in my head re: cheap available fusion power (pun intended this time 'round)--if there is an overproduction of water, it can be stored for the darker months and the growing season extended (in limited form, year-round) by sharing or shifting the power to providing light to green houses. And Wheaton Glass in Millville, NJ might be able to provide materials for that and other essential and useful products. Just keeps getting better and better.

[kalos72]

I take it a McGuffin is a fictional device of some sort? :)

Desalination is definitely a good option but would only really be a life saver if you follow the HW line. I also like the cold fusion link, like that SLOWPOKE reactor tied to a desalination plant. Perfect for the reactors small size/output.

[pmulcahy11b]

I take it a McGuffin is a fictional device of some sort? :)



Sort of like a "thingamabob in US slang.

[kato13]

In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin or maguffin) is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist pursues, often with little or no narrative explanation. The specific nature of a MacGuffin is typically unimportant to the overall plot. The most common type of MacGuffin is an object, place, or person; other, more abstract types include money, victory, glory, survival, power, love, or some unexplained driving force.


MacGuffin

Examples would include the Maltese Falcon and the Case from Pulp Fiction.

[ArmySGT.]

I take it a McGuffin is a fictional device of some sort? :)



Important reference for anyone interested in writing fiction for fun or profit.

TROPES (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffin)

[kalos72]

That Saving Davis Monthon write up lists the 1st and the 14th in MILGOV control, possibly in Colorado.

Do they make Air Force ORBATS that include nor "flight" units? Ill have to check the published 1996 ORBAT again...

And the article Pacific Fleet has the 3rd Wing in Alaska and the 15th Wing in Hawaii. Two more down...

Now I need a list of the ones active at the time and start to walk back the list.

[WallShadow]

I take it a McGuffin is a fictional device of some sort? :)

Desalination is definitely a good option but would only really be a life saver if you follow the HW line. I also like the cold fusion link, like that SLOWPOKE reactor tied to a desalination plant. Perfect for the reactors small size/output.

A "mcGuffin" is an object that is the goal of a plot, wherein it is being sought, fought over, destroyed, or whatever. IIRC the term was originated by Alfred Hitchcock to describe such a plot device. One "Remington Steele" episode had a McGuffin that was the recipe for a fat-free, calorie-free, absolutely delicious chocolate chip cookie. People were being killed for getting in the way of baddies obtaining it.

And the SLOWPOKE reactor (or even a cheap Radionucleide Thermal Reactor like the kind that is currently on a space probe wending its way out of the solar system) would be even better, since it really does exist and can apparently be constructed relatively simply.

[Olefin]

Is there a book you actually agree with? Seems like everything had holes in it according to you. Meanwhile many of us are happy to work with what we've got and make it work rather than continually attempt to pull it down.

Barely functional and nothing like what remains elsewhere. Poland really has been bombed back to the middle ages and it's feudal/despotism systems.

100,000 / 3,000,000 = 0.033333 remaining. Close enough to 97% casualties.

Actually a lot people have issues with the East European Sourcebook - as has been said by many people here the orders of battle listed for the various countries have all kinds of errors in them

And Silesia was nuked to hell and back invaded and fought over multiple times, etc.. - most of the US didn't have that happen - I don't see any issue with big depopulation occurring where you have multiple armies fighting over the areas for four years and add in a couple of dozen plus nukes in the same area over that time - that description (with a few very limited areas - i.e. LA and some areas in Texas) doesn't apply to the US

[Legbreaker]

Actually a lot people have issues with the East European Sourcebook - as has been said by many people here the orders of battle listed for the various countries have all kinds of errors in them.

Really? Who?
There are 780 members of this forum. Which ones have a problem with the books?
Perhaps we should take a poll?

[kalos72]

Why Leg?

As usual, you play the game your way and others will theirs. I will assume by your response that you agree with everything written and have no issues with anything GDW has written. Noted.

I for one, do.

[Olefin]

Really? Who?
There are 780 members of this forum. Which ones have a problem with the books?
Perhaps we should take a poll?


Oh I don't know Leg - how about his whole thread - http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2706&highlight=east+european+sourcebook

which had various people on the board discussing the issues they had with how the 8th ended up in Latvia and the fact that the Turkish and Greek armies have Russian tanks in it instead of the actual tanks they was equipped with in real life or the tanks that it was equipped with in both NATO books that described the Turkish Army for example - both forces should be equipped with older NATO tanks as both of them were in NATO in 1996 and Turkey still is

[WallShadow]

To quote President Merkin Muffley: "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room"

[kalos72]

So this is all I can get canon or fan materials:

1st Air Wing - Colorado?
3rd Air Wing - UK
14th Air Wing - Colorado?
15th Air Wing - Hawaii
16th Air Wing - Spain - possibly Middel East after?
17th Air Wing - Germany
18th Air Wing - Japan
36th Air Wing - Guam
60th Air Mobility Wing - CA
374th Airlift Wing - Japan
92nd Air Refueling Wing - OR
940th Air Refueling Wing - CA
7th Air Division - Germany
322nd Airlift Division: Germany
352nd Special Operations Wing - UK
7455th Tactical Intelligence Wing - Germany

[Olefin]

To quote President Merkin Muffley: "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room"

I prefer Slim Pickens riding that nuke down myself

[unkated]

MacGuffin

Examples would include the Maltese Falcon and the Case from Pulp Fiction.

... Or perhaps "There has been a limited nuclear war, and you are a soldier fighting with the remnants of the US army in Europe. Your division makes a successful raid into Poland, only to find itself surrounded by Soviet and Warsaw pact units..." :)

Uncle Ted

[WallShadow]

Howling Wilderness has the U.S. Army 194th Armoured Brigade guarding the oil refinery at Robinson, IL and a few functional oil fields surrounding it. However it also states that a recent accident severely damaged the plants last operating catalytic convertor, and the refinery is currently operating at one percent of its designed capacity. The brigade commander is also considering evacuating from Cairo, IL to Robinson and severing all ties with MilGov.

Doesn't give much information about refineries Oklahoma other than stating there are some or maybe one, and some oil wells. Reference to Colorado also supplying fuel, although that maybe from a depot of scavenged supplies.

From Wikipedia:
"In some FCC catalysts, the Brønsted sites may be later replaced by rare earth metals such as cerium and lanthanum to provide alternative activity and stability levels."
Lanthanum! aha! another connection to the stategic material of the Traveller future. Not in the 2300 AD universe, albeit.

[unkated]

From Wikipedia:
"In some FCC catalysts, the Brønsted sites may be later replaced by rare earth metals such as cerium and lanthanum to provide alternative activity and stability levels."
Lanthanum! aha! another connection to the stategic material of the Traveller future.

2091 AD* is coming sooner than you think!

Uncle Ted



* 2091 AD is when the Solomani (us here on Terra) discover Traveller Jump Drive technology, using Lanthanum, setting the Traveller universe in motion for the nasty Terrans to topple the Vilani First Imperium, set up the brief Second Empire, collapse it into the Long Night and then start the Third Imperium which grows for 1000 years until it reaches the Classic Traveller period...