Going to start work on a new sourcebook tonight

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Free to the community, of course. Version 1 rules compatible.

Briefly, it is based on a thought experiment I've been percolating. There will be probably 25 fully statted NPCs (I mean, as in you could take any one of them and use them as a character), leading a mechanized infantry troop of probably 125-200 minimally statted "grunts", and an additional 200-300 "camp followers" outlined, with some probable "notable civilians" detailed in between. Some of the notable NPCs will be from other NATO armies (Canadian, BAOR, Unified German, etc.) and probably a few ex-WP who've proven they're trustworthy.

The unit will be located near the Czech/Polish/German border, likely just inside Poland, so long as I can do that without breaking any other published information. That puts it close to the action but far enough away that it wouldn't have impacted the main battle.

The group is comprised of CivGov and MilGov forces that came together and are hoping and waiting that a coherent command structure that answers to a legitimate government in the US will be established. Both groups recognize the difficulty involved in that happening but also realize the futility of fighting each other when there are so many unknowns as far as WarPac forces that could defeat them in detail. So for now they have put aside their differences and are "US Military with NATO advisors/adjutants".

With 25 (N)PCs, it should be a fun exercise to pool their cash and buy some vehicles after the essentials are taken care of.

Yes there will be tanks and other AFVs, I haven't decided if there will be a helo or two with a reserve of avgas for emergencies.

This rough outline is pretty much what I have right now; more details to come.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

First note: The cantonment is located near the ruins of Bogatynia. The town was flattened by Fuel-Air Explosive bombs to break up concentrations Polish troops backed by Czech armor in one of the last massed air-raids of Summer, 2000. The air raid was conducted with a (relatively) large number of German F4 Phantoms operating from stretches of Autobahn that had been cleared and prepared as runways dropping CBU-55 and CBU-72 fuel-air cluster bombs on the town. For a full twenty minutes, four flights of four Phantom jets scourged the area. All were equipped for air-to-ground missions as they expected (and received) no challenge from enemy fighters.

This left Bogatynia a burning ruin, with special attention given to the coal-fired powerplant operating there. During the run up to the July 2000 offensive, the unit I'm building moved in and occupied the surrounding area; the Polish and Soviet military units were dead or gone, as were Czech formations.

[Draq]

Free to the community, of course. Version 1 rules compatible.

Briefly, it is based on a thought experiment I've been percolating. There will be probably 25 fully statted NPCs (I mean, as in you could take any one of them and use them as a character), leading a mechanized infantry troop of probably 125-200 minimally statted "grunts", and an additional 200-300 "camp followers" outlined, with some probable "notable civilians" detailed in between. Some of the notable NPCs will be from other NATO armies (Canadian, BAOR, Unified German, etc.) and probably a few ex-WP who've proven they're trustworthy.

The unit will be located near the Czech/Polish/German border, likely just inside Poland, so long as I can do that without breaking any other published information. That puts it close to the action but far enough away that it wouldn't have impacted the main battle.

The group is comprised of CivGov and MilGov forces that came together and are hoping and waiting that a coherent command structure that answers to a legitimate government in the US will be established. Both groups recognize the difficulty involved in that happening but also realize the futility of fighting each other when there are so many unknowns as far as WarPac forces that could defeat them in detail. So for now they have put aside their differences and are "US Military with NATO advisors/adjutants".

With 25 (N)PCs, it should be a fun exercise to pool their cash and buy some vehicles after the essentials are taken care of.

Yes there will be tanks and other AFVs, I haven't decided if there will be a helo or two with a reserve of avgas for emergencies.

This rough outline is pretty much what I have right now; more details to come.

I'm intrigued...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'm intrigued...

Well, I hope others will be, too. I doubt anyone has ever said "Well fuck it I'll create 25 actual player characters," that's going to create a lot of cash money, even after I skim off a bunch to fill the unit's armory.

[swaghauler]

Well, I hope others will be, too. I doubt anyone has ever said "Well fuck it I'll create 25 actual player characters," that's going to create a lot of cash money, even after I skim off a bunch to fill the unit's armory.

Don't forget the costs of high-tech equipment. The original rules were entirely too generous with equipment costs. Even in the 1990's, GEN II Nightvision would be $2K. Gen III Nightvision is more than $4k in 1990's dollars. Thermal Imaging is at least $20K. High tech missile systems like the US Javelin fire and forget AT Missile Launcher went for $78K for the Guidance Unit/Thermal Imager and $58K for a single missile when they were first introduced.
Some other real world costs I have dealt with myself (in US dollars):
US Army's Lensatic Compass= $150
US Army's PASGT Kevlar Helmet (NIJ 3A) = $250
US Army's PASGT Kevlar Vest (NIJ 3A) = $600
Concealable NIJ 2 Police Vest (AV 1/2) = $350 for Full Coverage (80% chest, 40% abdomen)
Concealable NIJ 3A Police Vest (AV1) = $500 for Full Coverage
Motorola 2Km Portable VHF Radio Handset (2 Channel) = $850, $1000 with hand mike and earbud.
Hatch Kevlar lined Search Gloves (black) = $50
Ballistic Goggles (NIJ 2a, 1/2AV) = $150
Steiner 6 X 24mm Binoculars (compact) = $159
Steiner 7 X 50mm Binoculars Wide Angle, Rangefinding = $359

Those are just some of the items I bought in the 90's and their costs. Compare them to the basic equipment list and you will see how "undervalued" those items are in the basic game.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Well, as men die there's going to be a considerable surplus. Also as I've said before I don't really consider "starting money" to be actual dollars spent on things, but, again, "purchase points". It could be magic beans, gold pieces, toenail clippings or whatever :) It's just there to put a point value on things that you then spend your starting points on (from my perspective).

It's like the age-old D&D discussion of "well what does a hit point really represent". :)

[Bullet Magnet]

Well, I hope others will be, too. I doubt anyone has ever said "Well fuck it I'll create 25 actual player characters," that's going to create a lot of cash money, even after I skim off a bunch to fill the unit's armory.

I did roll up around 50 NPCs once. They were allied POWs the players rescued, so their cash/equipment wasn't an issue. But, I only got a few detailed enough for things like skills; most just had their stats written up.
That's the closest I ever did.

So yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing your finished project.

[Draq]

Well, I hope others will be, too. I doubt anyone has ever said "Well fuck it I'll create 25 actual player characters," that's going to create a lot of cash money, even after I skim off a bunch to fill the unit's armory.
I'm always intrigued with home made source books, especially v1 mostly canon ones.

[LT. Ox]

I'm always intrigued with home made source books, especially v1 mostly canon ones.
I am as well....Go man GO!

[unkated]

Don't forget the costs of high-tech equipment. The original rules were entirely too generous with equipment costs.

Remember, these were not supposed to be actual $ values of the equipment as ordered by the government or available in civilian life.

These were the (relative) values of the equipment available in Poland in late Spring, 2000.

(When I run, I use availability, too - it may not be available no matter how much you want an item.)

Uncle Ted

[FPSlover]

I'm always intrigued with home made source books, especially v1 mostly canon ones.


I am interested as well and can't wait to see how this turns out.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

No pun intended.

But I have a question.

The area I mentioned earlier, where I was thinking of basing this unit, in southwestern Poland near the Polish/German/Czechoslovakian border, canonically what units were there or near there.

If this is going to be a re-fused unit made up of remnants I want it to make sense from a canon point of view.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Remember, these were not supposed to be actual $ values of the equipment as ordered by the government or available in civilian life.

These were the (relative) values of the equipment available in Poland in late Spring, 2000.

(When I run, I use availability, too - it may not be available no matter how much you want an item.)

Uncle Ted

As these are playable NPCs I may or may not use the availability rules. I'm leaning towards not, since the referee is free to ignore or not various bits of any ruleset.

[swaghauler]

Remember, these were not supposed to be actual $ values of the equipment as ordered by the government or available in civilian life.

These were the (relative) values of the equipment available in Poland in late Spring, 2000.

(When I run, I use availability, too - it may not be available no matter how much you want an item.)

Uncle Ted

I understand this, but the Devs have issues with the availability of equipment. In the mid 90's, my unit had 6 pairs of Night Vision Goggles and 180 M16A2s. Which do you think would be more commonly found? The M16A2 is both MORE COMMON, AND in real world 1990's dollars, would go for about $500 just like in the game (if I'm recalling it right, I don't have my rules handy). The (I'm guessing GEN II) Night Vision Goggles list for either $250 or $300 (once again, I don't have my rulebook in the cab), ONE TENTH the real world value of those goggles. There are issues like this all through the equipment guide, especially with the unit costs of certain Heavy Weapons, and Commo Equipment.

As you all know well by now, I will ditch anything "Canon" that doesn't follow real world logic (or economics).

[swaghauler]

Skin Biopsies? I hope everything is going well with you? I had a tumor removed from my left shoulder in 1990. They got it before it became a real problem, but I remember the angst I had while I was waiting for the surgery (and even afterwards).

[raketenjagdpanzer]

We'll find out soon enough.

[LT. Ox]

We'll find out soon enough.

and Prayers are with and for you Brother.
Twice in to
VA for Bladder C. they done good and I am still above ground smile.
Hang in
Harry O
PS now about the important stuff.... hmmm Got to start digging Poland right?

[LT. Ox]

I understand this, but the Devs have issues with the availability of equipment. In the mid 90's, my unit had 6 pairs of Night Vision Goggles and 180 M16A2s. Which do you think would be more commonly found? The M16A2 is both MORE COMMON, AND in real world 1990's dollars, would go for about $500 just like in the game (if I'm recalling it right, I don't have my rules handy). The (I'm guessing GEN II) Night Vision Goggles list for either $250 or $300 (once again, I don't have my rulebook in the cab), ONE TENTH the real world value of those goggles. There are issues like this all through the equipment guide, especially with the unit costs of certain Heavy Weapons, and Commo Equipment.

As you all know well by now, I will ditch anything "Canon" that doesn't follow real world logic (or economics).
But I am real and Canon and Irish so the logic thing is right out
er I think.

[Raellus]

I hope that it's nothing serious, Rak. Do you mind if I merge this post with your other one about this particular T2K topic?

-

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I hope that it's nothing serious, Rak. Do you mind if I merge this post with your other one about this particular T2K topic?

-

I doubt it's terribly serious. Skin carcinoma/melanoma are entirely treatable when caught promptly. I've been freckle and mole king since I was born so I'm probably OK, even if they're malignant.

Yeah, Go right ahead and merge the threads.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

and Prayers are with and for you Brother.
Twice in to
VA for Bladder C. they done good and I am still above ground smile.
Hang in
Harry O
PS now about the important stuff.... hmmm Got to start digging Poland right?

Gracias.

Yeah, now to Poland. :)

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Well, the problem with T2k is that ultimately it is a fantasy game, and it is a fantasy game written by fallible people, and it is a fantasy game written by fallible people based on what we now know are incorrect assumptions, along with some HUGE things done to "make" not only the T2k world like it is but to make 2300AD like it is: the small level of nuclear exchange, NATO not only falling apart but things like Italy throwing in with the USSR, and so on and so forth. I personally have "fixed" a lot of "bugs" in my own at-home T2k dealings but this is to follow canon as best I can, not just canon timeline but canon rules, and to those I will adhere.

With that said, the first snag I/we hit is the rule that states : "Since the game begins 'on the run', the only equipment players should be allowed to purchase is that which they can carry".

However this sourcebook does not start "on the run" but rather in a comparatively well equipped cantonment with a number of troops, that has been established for at least two years. Plus, it will alleviate the question of "why have you been here for two years, just sitting on your 'buy points'?" and also "how have you held this position with no heavy equipment" and so on and so forth.

So, yes, ultimately that will be a rule I "bend" to flesh out this combat unit as I want. And who knows, when I initially roll for vehicles I may get some surprises there, too.

Well, enough faffing about, back to work.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Okay, so here's the initial vehicle makeup...

With a core group of 25 (N)PCs, I broke the vehicle rolls up with a single d6, assuming I'd get something light as a "commander's vehicle" or scout vehicle, which I did: Humvee.

The other vehicles rolled were:

2x 8-Ton Truck
1x M113
1x M1
1x M1E1
1x M1E2

...so initially this was an armor-heavy unit, probably remnants of VII Corps. from initially in the war (VII Corps. was heavily in the south-eastern FRG during the Cold War and the tank heavy nature of this unit, I would deem that they would be from 1AD elements at Ansbach.

Any objections so far?

[WallShadow]

Okay, so here's the initial vehicle makeup...

With a core group of 25 (N)PCs, I broke the vehicle rolls up with a single d6, assuming I'd get something light as a "commander's vehicle" or scout vehicle, which I did: Humvee.

The other vehicles rolled were:

2x 8-Ton Truck
1x M113
1x M1
1x M1E1
1x M1E2

...so initially this was an armor-heavy unit, probably remnants of VII Corps. from initially in the war (VII Corps. was heavily in the south-eastern FRG during the Cold War and the tank heavy nature of this unit, I would deem that they would be from 1AD elements at Ansbach.

Any objections so far?

No objections, but my first reaction to the rolls is "Poor bastiches. How're they gonna brew enough fuel?":confused:

[raketenjagdpanzer]

No objections, but my first reaction to the rolls is "Poor bastiches. How're they gonna brew enough fuel?":confused:

Well, that's coming...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Some interesting stats so far generated; I've had to throw out a few sets as hopeless (many 3's and 4s, nothing to Favor!) I'm not looking to make supermen but when you end up with a character with like...4/3/1/5/6/2...that ain't much to work with!

[Targan]

I'm not looking to make supermen but when you end up with a character with like...4/3/1/5/6/2...that ain't much to work with!

Badly injured in combat and permanently impaired?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Quick update: I'm fine. Three "abnormal" spots but they were excised during the biopsy so nothing to worry about. I shall endeavor to persevere.

[LT. Ox]

Quick update: I'm fine. Three "abnormal" spots but they were excised during the biopsy so nothing to worry about. I shall endeavor to persevere.
I hope you have the same hat as that fine actor!
And NO Friends like Josie Wales.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I hope you have the same hat as that fine actor!
And NO Friends like Josie Wales.

I have a Gandalf hat, that works, right?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Badly injured in combat and permanently impaired?

I may work that in to some peripheral NPCs. Good thought. I pressed ahead with what I already had though. Been going a bit slower than I'd hoped, but is moving forward.

[LT. Ox]

I have a Gandalf hat, that works, right?
My next fav movie laugh I can just see Gandolf saying that line I shall endeavor to persevere

[raketenjagdpanzer]

My next fav movie laugh I can just see Gandolf saying that line I shall endeavor to persevere

You know you're not going to believe it but I was making a joke about Lone Watie just the other day - with a friend, who is from Poland, and we were talking about Twilight:2000. It went something like this:

"We all got dressed up in our suits and went to see the man from the Politburo up in Krakow. We were starvin', and there was no work. They said we looked Comradely. 'Endeavor to persevere.' he said. Pravda said 'Dockworkers in Poland Endeavor to Persevere.' We thought about this, endeavor to persevere. We thought about it, and then we made war on the Russians. I didn't surrender. They took my tractor from me, made it surrender. Probably pullin' artillery up in Kalisz."

[LT. Ox]

I'm crying I swear.
Just proves a good line works any time any place.
Made the tractor surrender??? so funny.
Now how to use that in my Morrow game hmmmmmm.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Okay so.

In looking at Going Home and the U.S. Army Vehicle Guide, it is giving me a clearer picture of what units are where. I was amazed; it has been so long since I have looked those over. Between U.S. Army Vehicle Guide Going Home there is still a massive number of armored fighting vehicles in the US forces hands. They're just scattered to hell and gone.

Also I'd forgotten that the Pact had pushed all the way into Germany (and that France occupies everything up to the damn Rhine...) That will require some re-thinking on my part. The former, I mean; as to France and the Zone of Death I think Going Home more than adequately deals with those traitorous sons-of-bitches...

I'm still pressing forward with character creation though. Very slow, very grindy.

[unkated]

No objections, but my first reaction to the rolls is "Poor bastiches. How're they gonna brew enough fuel?":confused:

Now, you're getting to why they are in cantonment - their encampment is built to defend the 1-3 large stills used to develop fuel for these beasts.

Oh, and some farmland to fuel the stills.

Oh, and some peasants to work the farmland, in exchange for defensive cover.

Oh, dear. Now you have a nearby village to write up, too. And a mayor/leader/councilor or...

And devise some reasonable relationship between the two:
Did the village volunteer labor in exchange for protection?
(Magnificent 7 gambit - "We are just poor Polish farmers threatened by an army of bandits; we do not have gold, but we can feed your bellies and gas tanks")

Were they made to accept it at gunpoint?
("Mr. Mayor, you will supply us with three men every other day to work our fields or we will send the tanks to flatten yours. If you do this without a fuss, we will see to it that no one unwanted visits your village.")
Or more directly "Resistence is fuedal. You will be assimilated." (Sorry, couldn't resist)


The next question is... do all three tanks still run? How well?

Engine?
Suspension?
turret?
main weapon? (weapon out or ammo out?)
targeting system?

I understand this is a source book, but, especially if you are making them up as if it was a large group of PCs...


One or more systems being out makes for an interesting problem for the NPCs (or for PCs trying to figure out NPC behavior)

Search for replacement parts provides a hook for why part (and only part) of this unit might be encountered (wandering the countryside looking for salvage; in a market town looking to trade) as means of introducing them to a PC team.


An expansion of what the author had in mind, but you would have a more interesting sourcebook, yes?

Uncle Ted

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I will treat the armored vehicles that I initially roll up as how they are available to PCs at the start of a game. I've got nearly 3/4ths of the (N)PCs statted now, soon I will know how much money I have to "spend", and I will decide what I spend it on.

As to the "camp followers" you touch on something interesting. I know there's a tendency by a lot of US players of T2k to cast the US troops as liberators and well-accepted and beloved folks by the Poles, but the region I'm putting this in was a heavily coal-producing area that was, during the initial push into Eastern Europe, relatively untouched. When US troops had to fall back, the town I'm thinking of (I don't have my maps handy) got a good pasting from remaining FRG and USAF air assets to deny a coal-fired powerplant to the enemy. As this armored division is stationed in that area the locals are decidedly icy towards German and American (and not to mention other NATO forces) being stationed in what were the ruins of their homes.

I may throw an M88A2 into the mix, working overtime as a construction/clearing vehicle to help mend bridges literally and figuratively with the locals.