Your Preferred T2K Timeline

[Raellus]

I seem to remember a similar thread on the old board but I figured I'd put it out there again since TW2013 is a reality now and we have some new members here.

I prefer the v1.0 timeline for its alternative history feel and childhood nostalgia. I use it pretty much as is, except for allowing RL military equipment issued before the TDM and a few changes developed by the DC group.

Since I don't know if there are any timeline differences between the two, I added separate poll choices for v2 and v2.2, just in case.

What's your fav?

Please limit discussion to the various versions of the timeline, not to the game mechanics of each version.

[kato13]

Modified V1.

[headquarters]

In the 1990s we did play the original timeline -it was sort of in touch with the times -but after the end of the decade it was all homegrown

[smokewolf]

I think we all know how I roll :D

[Matt Wiser]

V.1: very good as an Alternate History.

[Grimace]

I stick nearly 95% with the V2 timeline. I might borrow a little here and there, but for the most part everything in my games adhere to V2 timeline.

[Targan]

I don't now if I've ever even read the V2 timeline in its entirety. I put V1 in the poll but as most people here will know, my campaign is a bit of a Twilight Nightmares mish mash so I guess it could qualify as a homebrew timeline too.

Since I don't know if there are any timeline differences between the two, I added separate poll choices for v2 and v2.2, just in case.
I don't know if there are differences either. Can anyone enlighten us on this?

[Webstral]

I'd have to call my preference a slightly modified v1 timeline. Most of the modifications I have included are to keep the v1 timeline as intact as possible while accounting for real world developments up through 1995.

Webstral

[Mohoender]

My own as you must have guessed.:D

[TiggerCCW UK]

I went for V1, my history is the V1 timeline with additional modern equipment that could have made it in, or indeed something that I reckon is just too cool not to use:D My game world is a bit like Targans as well in that I have zombies turning up now, but the background is mostly cannon.

[weswood]

I like the V1 timeline, with the use of nukes pushed back some. If I ever run a game, tactical nukes would be first used in '97, with the TDM in '99.

IMO, they were used way too early. I would have thought they would be used as a last, desperate measure.

[Mohoender]

I'm also a bit like Tigger and Targan as some elements of Dark Conspiracy are slowly getting in.

[Rainbow Six]

V1 for me with a few (very minor) tweaks here and there...plus additional equipment like Tigger mentioned (e.g. the G36)

[Marc]

I use v2.2 for timeline, simply because this is the version that fell in my hands here in Barcelona. Anyway I don't give too much importance to the timeline. Any knowledge adquired about any other timeline is because the threads in this forum.

[martinjpayne]

I voted for v2.2 as that is what I used to run.

If I could start a game now I think I would go for a v2.2 variant where ODS turns into a full invasion like OIF, only less successful. Add in a smattering of Harold Coyle, i.e. Russians invade Iran for their oilfields, pull France out of the coalition as it goes against the UN Resolution (maybe FFL mutiny or are left in Gulf region with no support, and attach themselves to US/UK forces), Israel makes first nuclear strike...

[Dogger]

My game history is the V1 timeline...the "current" year in the game is 2003 though.

[dude_uk]

As others have said a slightly modified V1.

[Raellus]

As a nostalgia-fueled v1.0 apologist, I'm pleased to see the old stuff holding a slight edge.

[pmulcahy11b]

I like the v2.2 game system (though it has some weaknesses and needs some fixes), but I prefer the v1 timeline.

[Fusilier]

I like the v2.2 game system (though it has some weaknesses and needs some fixes), but I prefer the v1 timeline.

Same here.

[Ramjam]

I use v2.2 but with the TW2010 timeline (and don't ask me for the link because I can't find it anywhere:( ).

[natehale1971]

Since so many people like the V1.0 Timeline, I was wondering if anyone would be willing to help me rebuilt my modification of the V1.0 timeline where the Sino-Soviet War doesn't start until 2000 (mainly used to allow the ecconomic reforms that 'saved' the communist systems from collapsing), and the Soviets not calling up Warsaw Pact allies for troops until 2002 after the Sino-Soviet War bogs down into a stalemate (and this call for troops from the Warsaw Pact is what gets the Western allies to start supplying the PRC with weapons and more). I had described Danilov's reforms being basicly the same kinds of reforms that the PRC has been doing in real life.

If anyone is interested please let me know, and as soon as the V1.2 timeline is completed we'll post it here for everyone to enjoy.

[Fusilier]

Since so many people like the V1.0 Timeline, I was wondering if anyone would be willing to help me rebuilt my modification of the V1.0 timeline where the Sino-Soviet War doesn't start until 2000.

For me, part of the reason why I like the V1 time line is because of when it takes place. None of the modern weapons of today, its all classic, hard core, cold war gear.

That said, I do acknowledge it would be all around better suited with the USSR having an improved economy.

[natehale1971]

For me, part of the reason why I like the V1 time line is because of when it takes place. None of the modern weapons of today, its all classic, hard core, cold war gear.

That said, I do acknowledge it would be all around better suited with the USSR having an improved economy.

And it would also be alot better with the Soviets having alot more to loose with the purging of Danilov by the hardliners (and give a much better reason for the Red Army quickly facturing after the loss of control from the Kremlin, and why the units so far apart are part of the same 'faction').

[pmulcahy11b]

For me, part of the reason why I like the V1 time line is because of when it takes place. None of the modern weapons of today, its all classic, hard core, cold war gear.

That said, I do acknowledge it would be all around better suited with the USSR having an improved economy.

IRL, the collapse of the Soviet economy was partially brought about by US military technology, and the Soviets trying to keep up -- unsuccessfully. Militarily, they sort of thought the West's military engineers were magicians. Their economy couldn't support that kind of R&D.

In a T2K v1 timeline, this might lead to a sense of increasing desperation --"We better attack now before they come up with something we definitely can't counter. We already can't match their technology -- we'll have to overwhelm them with numbers, which we have right now..." That sort of argument.

[Raellus]

In a T2K v1 timeline, this might lead to a sense of increasing desperation --"We better attack now before they come up with something we definitely can't counter. We already can't match their technology -- we'll have to overwhelm them with numbers, which we have right now..." That sort of argument.

Although the novel Red Army didn't get too heavily into the "whys" of the Soviet attack chronicled therein, the reason you mention above was alluded to several times.

Also, the Soviet's war in Afghanistan was a severe drain on their finances. Withdrawing from A'stan, as they did IRL c. '89, would have saved the equivalent of hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Also, cutting back on subsidizing every Third World strongman or revolutionary who declared himself a Marxist/socialist/communist would help as well. With a few sginificant cost-cutting measures, I think the USSR could have remained solvent until T2K '95. Perhaps gaining control of resources on the Chinese side of the border was one of the Soviet's motives in launching the war.

[TiggerCCW UK]

In a T2K v1 timeline, this might lead to a sense of increasing desperation --"We better attack now before they come up with something we definitely can't counter. We already can't match their technology -- we'll have to overwhelm them with numbers, which we have right now..." That sort of argument.

If I remember right that was the reason behind the Soviet attack in War Day by Whitley Streiber and James Kunetka as well - the US was starting to deploy an SDI system that would have rendered the Soviets almost totally (they felt) at Americas mercy. War Day is another book I'd highly recommend.

[Cdnwolf]

Great book, - War Day - it showed how the US broke up into little territories and how they salvaged New York City to recover all the valuable material left behind.

[mikeo80]

I've only played T2K two times. Both times were very enjoyable. I do not own the books, so I have no way to compare versions.

All I know is the game was very thought provoking.

[kato13]

I've only played T2K two times. Both times were very enjoyable. I do not own the books, so I have no way to compare versions.

All I know is the game was very thought provoking.

That is why we are still here 25 years later. Glad you came for a visit to this board. Quite a bit of potential post apoc crossover with Morrow Project.

[sglancy12]

Greetings gentlemen,

Not so long lurker, first time posting...

Ever since the USSR fell apart in 1991, Twilight 2000 worked best as alternative history, rather than as speculative fiction. It should have been re-released as an alternative history period piece set at the turn of the millenium. I think the folks behind Twilight:2013 may have made a mistake setting the game in a year that is rapidly approaching. Before you know it, events will overtake the speculative fiction, which will end up looking pretty quaint.

For example, I think we can all see that Frank Frey's moderate Islamic Republic of Iran (as depicted in the RDF Sourcebook) turned out to be as fanciful as the USSR lasting until 2000. And the idea that the Slovenians and Croats would side with the USSR against pro-NATO Serbs shows both it's age and it's false assumptions.

For myself, I've been working on a homegrown history of my own, heavily influenced by the v.1 and v.2 histories. My history diverges in 1989 when hardliners in the USSR assassinate Gorbachev by blowing up his plane while he is traveling to China just before the Tianamen Square Massacre. So, no 1991 coup, no Sino-Soviet War, no wall coming down...

... well, not completely anyways. 1989 to 1991 is an era of extreme crisis, with the USSR desperately trying to hold the Warsaw Pact together, the Gulf War and the break up of Yugoslavia. All these events are recast in light of the renewed Cold War and a hard line USSR.

My Twilight War ends up being a massive confrontation not just between western democracies and a reinvigorated Sino-Soviet alliance, but also between radical Islam. With the Gulf war working out differently, the Serbs engaging in "ethnic cleansing" against Muslims in the Yugoslavia, and the USSR scapegoating their Muslim citizens for the assassination of Gorbachev, leads to the growth of radical Islam into a world-wide threat about 5 years too early.

Rather than bore the crap out of everyone by writing about it here, I'll hold off and post my Twilight War time-line when I've filled in some of the biggest gaps. It currently stands at 37,000 words and tries to incorporate as much real world history as possible. I've also got a sort of global gazetteer in the works, trying to come up with the basic state of the world's governments after the Twilight War. That's currently at 35,000 words and still growing.

Anyways... excellent material on this forum. Keep up the great work guys.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing.

[Legbreaker]

Sounds great. Definately interested in what you've done.
Wouldn't mind lending a hand either.

[sglancy12]

Sounds great. Definately interested in what you've done.
Wouldn't mind lending a hand either.

Well, it looks like I can attach pdf files to these forum posts, so I guess I'll just set up a new thread and post it when I'm feeling gutsy...

... what I've got is very basic and hasn't been fully researched. At least, not to my tastes anyways.

Anyone prefer a format other than pdf?

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Legbreaker]

Word would be nice if you don't mind me tweaking things a bit with some suggestions - need something to do while I'm supposed to be working!

:naughty:

[sglancy12]

Word would be nice if you don't mind me tweaking things a bit with some suggestions - need something to do while I'm supposed to be working!

Well, since my work will clearly be perfect, and beyond the hand of mortal man to improve, there will be no need for you to tweek it.

Seriously though, if you know how to use Word's editing options so that I can see all the corrections, that would be fine. It looks like I can post two files attached to each forum post. I'll try to get this done before Tuesday, but as I have to get on a red-eye flight to GenCon Indy, it may have to wait until after I get back.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kato13]

It looks like I can post two files attached to each forum post.

You should be able to attach 10 files (up to 5 at a time).

We do have a 500kB limit on files to keep bandwidth down. If you want to share something larger I would suggest www.rapidshare.com. Just make sure you sign up for the collector zone at the end (to allow more than 10 downloads).

For example I put the breakdown of all my morrow project kits there.
http://rapidshare.com/files/236001641/project_kits_all_formats.zip

Most would not apply to T2k but the some of the medical kits would.

[Legbreaker]

Seriously though, if you know how to use Word's editing options so that I can see all the corrections, that would be fine.
Can be done!

[Cdnwolf]

If you use the cutewriter program you can write it using any word processing program and convert it to pdf.

[Kemper Boyd]

I'm currently playing in a game based on an alternative timeline, where war starts in 1983 as a result of NATO's ABLE ARCHER-war game being interpreted wrong by the paranoid Yuri Andropov. The change in era means that NATO and the Soviets are much more equal in strength and economic capability.

[Targan]

I'm currently playing in a game based on an alternative timeline, where war starts in 1983 as a result of NATO's ABLE ARCHER-war game being interpreted wrong by the paranoid Yuri Andropov. The change in era means that NATO and the Soviets are much more equal in strength and economic capability.

Have you read the thread "Able Archer 1983??" (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2263)? I think you might be able to contribute some very interesting material to that discusion.

[Mock26]

I love the original time line because of the nostalgia and for simplicity in gaming, but I actually like the 2013 time line better.

[Legbreaker]

...I actually like the 2013 time line better.

HEATHEN!!! ;)

[Targan]

I love the original time line because of the nostalgia and for simplicity in gaming, but I actually like the 2013 time line better.

Well you're in the minority there but that's fine, the world is built on diversity of opinions and ideas. I'd love to know what it is about the 2013 timeline that attracts you.

[headquarters]

I love the original time line because of the nostalgia and for simplicity in gaming, but I actually like the 2013 time line better.

We have our own variety of the timeline.
Back in the 1990s we could still relate to the whole East vs West situation. But as the things changed and WWIII: Moscow vs Washington- the Slugfest became less and less likely we also started to "look for new angles".

It is nostalgic to go back to the simpler age of fearing the Bear. So I do enjoy the old timelines. Also I do like the attempted new angle the 2013 set up has.
But neither older nor newer timeline really had it for us - so we came up with our own. The idea dates back to around 2002-2003. We started playing this campaign in 2004/2005.

It has elements of 2013 and some scavenged bits from the V1 or V2 installments.

Here is a link. But one caveat - my fellow gamers have condensed and translated bits of it so any misspelling should be attributed them!

Also - content might be controversial to some. Rest assured that this is not a political statement of any sort and that any disrespect to any nation - particularily the USA is not ourt intention. ( I guess I could get upset if someone dismembered my country and exaggurated things about it.). Lastly - of course there will be a myriad reasons that this wouldnt play out this way. But here it goes:

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/about.html


:rolleyes:

[Panther Al]

Though I wasn't around for the hollow army nor the 80's build up, I do kinda miss the bad old good days of the cold war- you kinda knew what to expect.

[Sanjuro]

M? Is that you?
In the old days he'd have had the decency to defect! Christ I miss the Cold War...

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Though I wasn't around for the hollow army nor the 80's build up, I do kinda miss the bad old good days of the cold war- you kinda knew what to expect.

I'm 45 and I miss the Cold War, at least you know who was playing on what team along with other things of a political bent but I'll leave it at that for now. :) :p :( That said, there is a good writeup on TV Tropes about "Why We're Bummed Communism Fell."

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhyWereBummedCommunismFell

[rcaf_777]

If I remember right that was the reason behind the Soviet attack in War Day by Whitley Streiber and James Kunetka as well - the US was starting to deploy an SDI system that would have rendered the Soviets almost totally (they felt) at Americas mercy. War Day is another book I'd highly recommend.

The US shuttle was destoryed in orbit whne they deployed a spider SDI system, I frist read WAR Day while working in Thialand, I found a copy in a High School Library where I was working, I think they made a another book nature end?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

The US shuttle was destoryed in orbit whne they deployed a spider SDI system, I frist read WAR Day while working in Thialand, I found a copy in a High School Library where I was working, I think they made a another book nature end?

Yeah, Nature's End which is like Warday but instead focuses on a sort of biological apocalypse rather than a nuclear one.

[95th Rifleman]

My group have taken to using the V1 timeline but moving it back a decade. Kick off is December '86 and our campaighns start in the summer of 1990.

It fits so much better.

[Fusilier]

My group have taken to using the V1 timeline but moving it back a decade. Kick off is December '86 and our campaighns start in the summer of 1990.

It fits so much better.

That sounds good. Pre-90s is where I like it too, not just for a better timeline, but for the nostalgia of the cold war.

[Adm.Lee]

My group have taken to using the V1 timeline but moving it back a decade. Kick off is December '86 and our campaighns start in the summer of 1990.

It fits so much better.

This idea is growing on me....

[stg58fal]

If I can find a group to play, 2013 with a little bit of modification/fleshing out of the background.

[DocSavage45B10]

I don't know if I personally have a favorite timeline, but the game I'm currently prepping to run has a homebrew timeline with a war kicking off in 2012/13 and play beginning in 2020.

I gotta say though, that I like the idea of a war kicking off in the 80s and play beginning in the 90s, that's very... period.

Wolverines!

[CDAT]

I would say kind of my own, as take what they put out and then update it a bit to try and have real life fit in to the game.

[.45cultist]

I've tried pushing dates back slightly, my preferred system is V2.2 with a slightly altered T2013 timeline. With speculation of a Chinese currency war in 2017 and adding TEOTWAWKI 2020 paranoia. I just roll the years forward a little. It gives me time to convert the civvie career stuff to V2.2.

[unkated]

I have always been a fan of the v1 timeline for a few reasons:


The v1 time line (as projected forward from 1984) was clearly a fantasy, and not a terribly realistic projection (IMHO). Now, as such, it served its purpose of having a clash of arms using the large scale military units available in the mid-80s projected froward to the mid 90s.

For my money, the V2 and V2.2 times became increasing weak and unlikely. Do recall that amounts of the chaos and destruction in Poland and Germany (and elsewhere) were caused by conventional forces rolling over towns; it was not all casued by tac nukes. The conventional forces (actually) available in V2 and V2.2 from both the east and west lack the density to cause the kind of widespread destruction depicted in T2K. Neither side can put enough boots on the ground - especially not the CIS, and by 1995, the WP was gone. To my mind, the bear in V2 or V2.2 was too defanged to be that much of a threat.

I have trouble buying the state of the rest of the world in v2 or v2.2. The CIS lacked the resources to deliver widespread nukes to destroy oil or power resources 1995; certainly they had very little in the way of a functioning navy. The rest of the world would have found it easier to go on afterward, even with a tac-nuke walloping of the US.

I am completely ignorant of the 2013 timeline. However, if it does start later than 1995, there are a raft of issues that crop up that would require a raft of additions - computers, cell phones, telecom networks (national and international, partial or local internets), military vehicles had major upgrades in electronic targeting systems in the last 20 years, a raft of other personal electronic possibilities, military and civilian. Sticking to the original timeline avoids a raft of these issues.

Certainly, I have a few issues with the v1 timeline, and any number of questions about how and when to branch off of real-world history. But on the whole, I'd rather stick with it than go to something else.

Uncle Ted

[Raellus]

I've already gone on record many times here professing my adoration for the original v1.0 timeline. As a late Cold War kid just falling in love with military science and history, the first Twilight 2000 backstory really rang true. In hindsight, it doesn't hold up quite as well, but if one looks at it as alternative history, it still works well enough.

That said, Rainbow Six and I have been working on a more modern, near-future version set in the mid-to-late 2020s. It takes into account actual history since 1984 or so and current events right up to today's headlines. An updated version also allows us to include actual current military tech, some of which is even cooler than what the creators of the original game predicted, as well as nifty gear projected for service entry during the next decade-and-a-half. The one issue I'm finding with this approach is that events in the real world are happening so thick and fast that the "backstory" is constantly evolving in response. Every time I feel pretty confident in what we've written, something happens that necessitates adjustments/changes. I'm worried that we can't ever really get ahead of what's going on today. Still, it's a fun- and kind of scary- pastime.

-

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Interesting read there Raellus. I'm definitely keen to read what you and Rainbow Six have cooked up (and I reckon many others here would be too!)
Out of curiousity, can you explain anything more or give some hints about major events (maybe in a specific thread perhaps?)

I'm interested to see how China plays out in any updated timeline because I tend to see them as a believable future (fictional) enemy. Although they haven't shown much belligerence in the real world, there are certainly signs that they might take it further. For example, there's been a slew of Chinese "advice" to Australia to watch itself in regards to our ties to the USA and also to Japan.

China has also been trying to curry favour with many island nations in the Pacific with gifts of roadworks, building projects, vehicles and even passenger/freight aircraft. The overall view is that they are seeking alternate sources for fishing and minerals but the "other" talk claims that this foreign aid is specifically to help them open a friendly (as in "totally Chinese controlled") naval base. That coupled with their recent advances in making a more professional and technologically updated military gives some good avenues for game-world speculation.


Further reading: -

Chinese "advice" to Australia (note that the dates are from 2012 onwards so it's not something that has just "popped up" of late)
http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2012/05/26/game-of-thrones-turns-sicilian-chinese-general-taunts-australia/
http://www.theage.com.au/national/china-warns-on-usaustralian-ties-20120606-1zwp0.html
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/chinese-general-ominously-warns-australia-not-to-side-with-the-us-tiger-2013-1
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/shun-us-tiger-and-japanese-wolf-chinese-colonel-warns-20130122-2d52d.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/latest/former-chinese-commander-warns-australia-on-japan-ties/story-e6frg90f-1226988270076?nk=c7121f91343ce48860e6ebb0e096c832
http://www.theasanforum.org/australias-relations-with-china-in-turbulence/

China in the Pacific
http://www.lowyinstitute.org/issues/chinese-foreign-aid
http://pacificpolicy.org/blog/2012/06/07/patriot-games-island-voices-in-a-sea-of-contest/
https://www.aspi.org.au/publications/our-near-abroad-australia-and-pacific-islands-regionalism
http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2011-04/real-game-changers-pacific-basin
http://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/chinese-assistance-pacific-agency-effectiveness-and-role-pacific-island-governments
http://www.lowyinstitute.org/news-and-media/press-releases/china-not-challenging-australias-dominance-pacific-islands-says-new-lowy-institute-analysis
http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2014/09/17/Chinese-navy-peace-ark-soft-power-win-in-the-Pacific.aspx
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2013/s3759160.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-14/brissenden-rise-of-china-in-the-south-pacific/4686328

[Raellus]

Thanks, SSC. We're currently at work on the European war chapters but we'll be returning to Asia shortly. Once Rainbow's back from holiday, we'll be able- hopefully- to start publishing some of the 2030 "history".

[kato13]

If anyone is interested in keeping up with defense issues, this is a really thorough aggregator site for defense news.

http://www.realcleardefense.com/

In general the real clear team strives to show a wide range of opinions for all their websites.

[kcdusk]

V1 of the T2K timeline is the only one i will consider, for a number of reasons.

1. I love the front cover of the box, every time i see it i fall in love with the game.

2. V1 is the timeline i grew up with, for better or worse its the only one i will consider.

3. If i had to look at another time line for a group, i'd go with whatever the current world wide situation was, add 6 months of time (to allow me to make up and project things going from bad to worse), and start from there.

For example, currently i'd say the Ukraine and Russia get into it. IS starts beheading people in public places of capital cities throughout the world (which was there current plan in Australia this week, i believe) , Scotland rebels against the UK, etc ... and drop the players in there.

[Draq]

When I discovered t2k, it was v1. Which is partly why I love it. The only other time line I'd use would be modified v1 or rewind to the late 70's and start ww3 during the cold war.

[Ancestor]

Ancestor again - forgot that I already voted but I'm now running a homebrew: V1 but set in 2030 (Soviet Union is Russia, Belorus, Ukraine; WP is Soviet Union, Hungary, a couple of the stans, plus the PIGS of Europe). War started with Sino-Soviet war over Siberian resources, then spread to Europe.

I just love the doom of V.1. I also run some modified rules (V.1 skill and individual combat, hybrid V.1/V.2 character gen, and then for mass combat I use a Russian game called "Art of Tactic"). My boys grew up on Memoir 44 and D&D V.4 so lots of hexes and miniatures, so it became a good way to introduce T2K to them.

[Ancestor]

[QUOTE=kcdusk;61283]V1 of the T2K timeline is the only one i will consider, for a number of reasons.

1. I love the front cover of the box, every time i see it i fall in love with the game.

Plus THIS! Metcalf South Mall, Clint's South Comics, 1985.

[Silent Hunter UK]

Just bought the v1 core books. Agree it's the best of the timelines.

[Draq]

Ancestor: I'd love to see your hybrid v1/v2 char gen system

[.45cultist]

I've grown to like them all. You can convert Paul's stuff to V1 easy enough.

[Draq]

im still a noob as far as actually playing the game goes. im getting fairly familiar with the setting, but i learn by doing, the same way i did with I.C.E. cyberspace, AD&D v2, original Traveler, and West End Games Star Wars v2. the t2k v1 books do a decent job explaining the mechanics, but there isnt a single play example. all the stats for characters, weapons, equipment, and vehicles make sense, but i need to see them at work.

[.45cultist]

im still a noob as far as actually playing the game goes. im getting fairly familiar with the setting, but i learn by doing, the same way i did with I.C.E. cyberspace, AD&D v2, original Traveler, and West End Games Star Wars v2. the t2k v1 books do a decent job explaining the mechanics, but there isnt a single play example. all the stats for characters, weapons, equipment, and vehicles make sense, but i need to see them at work.

They did a V1 example in Challenge Magazine, marauders attempt to take a barn with some soldiers in it.

[unkated]

They did a V1 example in Challenge Magazine, marauders attempt to take a barn with some soldiers in it.

Challenge 31, to be precise.

Uncle Ted

[ChalkLine]

As I've been playing the game off and on since it first came out I'm over the old timelines and prefer to play in a contemporary setting

[Raellus]

As I've been playing the game off and on since it first came out I'm over the old timelines and prefer to play in a contemporary setting

I get it. I've toyed with updated timelines, to make the setting more familiar, feel more relevant, and to incorporate new weapons and kit, but there are issues with that.

I think newer timelines lend themselves best to those first two considerations (creating a game world that feels more relevant, more familiar and connected to today). I find the opposite to be true for weapons and kit, though. There are two reasons.

First, new weapons and kit kind of betray the T2k ethos of a general breakdown of civilization and technology. PC's with tablets (no internet, but still), e-readers, mp3 players (old tech, today), and photo albums on their phones? One of T2k's appeals for me is getting away from all that stuff, but yeah, that sort of tech doesn't feel T2k to me.

Second, newer weapons and kit tend to make the PCs overpowered. When most PCs are equipped with current gen NVGs, weapon sights, comms, drones, and body armor (or various combinations thereof), they essentially become superheroes, the equivalent of "Masters of the Realm" in D&D (5e). If the OPFOR isn't similarly equipped, it's like Level 15 D&D heroes going up against kobolds, goblins, and the occasional orcs. If you equip the OPFOR like the PCs, with all the latest bells and whistles, then it's not really T2k, is it? It's Modern Warfare, and there are plenty of outlets for that out there now.

It's a Catch-22: Include lots of modern gear, it feels less like T2k. Eliminate all that cool current-gen gear, then there's less of a reason to update the timeline.

I've experienced this a bit already in the T2030 campaign that I run. Some day, I hope to confront my players with OPFOR that are as well equipped as they are but PbP is so slow-paced, IRL, that I'm pessimistic that we'll ever reach that point.

For these reasons, I keep coming back to the alternative, Cold War never ended, v1.0 timeline.

[Legbreaker]

Completely agree.
T2K is really about the aftermath of the war. The survivors only have the scraps left over, all the good stuff has been used up, or is on the verge of failure due to lack of maintenance and spare parts. The only reliable equipment are the simple things with few working parts, little to no electronics and can be repaired with little more than a hammer and anvil.
Anything modern is akin to magic and should be treated as such. Once it's gone, there's no replacing it.

[Raellus]

We don't know what the v4 timeline is going to look like, so it's too early to add it to the poll. I would, however, like to share some thoughts re critiques of the v1 timeline and some critics' assertion that it needs to be replaced by something (quote), more plausible (end quote).

The one argument against the v1 timeline that I keep seeing is that it strains credulity. It goes something like this:

New gamers can't get into v1 because it ignores real world history between its release c. 1984 and the collapse of the USSR in 1991. They are unable to accept the premise that the Cold War never ends because it is too implausible given what we know now.

Fair play. But I don't see how any other timeline that starts WWIII c.1996 eliminates this issue. They too, by their very nature, ignore real world events from 1991 to the commencement of WW3. It's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Timelines that include the end of the Warsaw Pact and a hard-line military coup in the Russian Soviet rump-state do the same thing- depart from real-world events. IRL the coup didn't succeed. IRL, it took Russia 30+ years to even come close to regaining its Cold War power (it's still not there yet). So how is that route more realistic than a Cold-War-never-ended scenario?

Successful coup scenarios tend to ignore that a Neo-USSR ruled by a hard-line military government would be an international pariah state on par with the Soviet Union of 1918; that its economy would be even more decrepit than that of the RL Soviet Union of the late 1980s because its European satellites had all left its orbit a couple of years prior to the historical departure point (the coup). With a wrecked economy, how does the junta keep the Soviet military afloat, let alone as powerful as it was prior to 1989? How does the Soviet economy recover enough to support a two-front peer-rival war in under half-a-decade? And how does a Soviet Union without most of its Warsaw Pact allies compete in a conventional military confrontation with China and/or NATO? (especially when some of those former allies were well on their way to becoming NATO members!)

I just don't see the v2 timeline or any others that include a successful coup resulting in a more realistic back-story/setting. If anything, I think it results in a much less realistic and/or believable back-story and setting.

For the v1 alternate history to work, one only has to figure out a way for the Soviet economy to remain afloat from 1989 until 1996. This seems much more doable than figuring out a how a collapsed post-coup Soviet economy somehow miraculously recovers in four or five years, leaving the neo-Soviet Union no worse off than it was prior to the coup (or IRL, after 1991).

I watched a Youtube critique of v1 recently. The Youtuber didn't like that it ignored real world events that occurred between 1984-1991. For him, it was "too unrealistic" and therefore, impossible for anyone younger than 35 to accept. This Youtuber preferred a revised timeline that included the fall of the Iron Curtain, the collapse of the Soviet Union, and a coup replacing Yeltsin's government with a hard-line military junta (i.e. something more along the lines of v2). His explanation for the miraculous recovery of the neo-Soviet economy was the discovery of fusion power* in the mid-1980s (kept secret until after the coup, then used as leverage to win back the loyalty of the restive WTO states).

*Something that still hasn't happened, IRL.

A macguffin that erases history from 1991-2000 is presented as more realistic than a Soviet Union that manages not to collapse 1989-1991.

:rolleyes:

Poppycock, I say. If one is going to adopt a fusion power macguffin in 1991, post-coup, why not just insert it pre-1989? It's totally arbitrary and therefore, no more realistic than v1. Instead of fusion power, how about the discovery and exploitation of massive energy reserves in Soviet territory in the late 1980s? That's not too far off how modern-day Russia rakes in a good chunk of western currency, IRL. With revenues from oil and natural gas, the Soviet economy could stay solvent until the advent of WWIII. With a minor tweak of reality, the v1 timeline works quite well. If it ain't broke...

I realize that this is all academic or, at least, moot, and that GM's can tailor their respective T2kUs however they like. That's the way it should be. But, for officially released starting points, I think the v1 timeline is just as plausible/realistic, if not more so, than v2 or what's been leaked of the v4 timeline. Either way, T2k is built around an alternate history. For me, the simplest route is the best.

That said, the timeline is the foundation of the setting of any iteration of Twilight 2000. A bad timeline will likely hamstring the game. One could argue that Twilight 2013 was doomed by its timeline. I really hope that v4 presents a plausible timeline. Different is fine, but better- or, at least, not worse than v1-2.2- is crucial, IMHO.

-

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I could not agree more with you Raellus.

It would be far better and more plausible to have the Soviet Union discover a variety of Rare Earth Elements (REEs) within Soviet territory.
Rare Earth minerals are vital for electronics and are in everything from communications and medical equipment to catalytic converters for pollution reduction.
The modern world could not function without them.

China has traditionally been the world's largest supplier of REEs and dominated the world market through various tactics such as economic bullying.
China makes a staggering amount of foreign currency by being the number one seller of REEs.
If the Soviets discover massive reserves of REEs in their territory, it could be a source of economic tension between the USSR and China. They might even try more overt ways to prevent each other from being the world supplier.
They might even get into military clashes over it.

So, give some remote area of Russia a significant deposit of REEs and they will be rolling in the cash. It might even be a causus belli for war with China.
When the USSR starts to threaten restrictions on the sale of REEs to Western nations, it might even give the West cause for conflict with the Soviet Union.


And I didn't have to make up a whole new timeline with McGuffins to get this to work.

[Raellus]

Great idea, SSC. REEs could keep the Soviet economy afloat from the late 1980s through the mid-'90s, and contribute to the start of the Sino-Soviet War (leading to WWIII).

-

[Rainbow Six]

So, give some remote area of Russia a significant deposit of REEs and they will be rolling in the cash. It might even be a causus belli for war with China.
That sounds pretty plausible to me. I could be wrong - it's been a long time since I read it - but IIRC Tom Clancy's Bear and Dragon used something along those lines to posit a conflict between what was by then the Russian Federation and China - I think the premise was that the Russians discovered large deposits of gold and oil in Siberia.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That sounds pretty plausible to me. I could be wrong - it's been a long time since I read it - but IIRC Tom Clancy's Bear and Dragon used something along those lines to posit a conflict between what was by then the Russian Federation and China - I think the premise was that the Russians discovered large deposits of gold and oil in Siberia.
Gold and oil would certainly give them some hard currency via exports and as for the Rare Earths, Russia does actually have deposits but doesn't do much with them at the moment - but that's all set to change.
From what I've read, Russia supplies about 2% of the world supply but according to some reports, has the fifth or fourth largest reserves of the elements.
So yes, definitely plausible without having to completely rewrite the history of the USSR, you'd only have to fudge the timeline for the discovery and exploitation of the resources.

Russia is apparently looking into plans to exploit the REE reserves they have, a plan that will put them at odds with China. The value of those REEs could give Russia a lot of money in the coming decades. Now, from what I understand of the talk I hear in the mining industry and what I've read in the trade papers and news, Russia initially wants to end it's reliance on China for REEs but after that, they want to be a world supplier.
I believe the West will be happy to help (because they too want to end some of their dependency on China).
According to this South China Morning Post article, Russia wants to be a world supplier in ten years (in second place to China apparently)
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3097144/russia-eyes-us15-billion-plan-rival-chinas-dominance-rare-earths

So the REE reserves are there, all we need to do with the T2k world is have the USSR discover & exploit them soon enough to allow them to have a healthy economy into the 1980s-1990s.
No need for complete rewrites of history, no need for McGuffins.

EDIT: To help add some perspective to the importance of REEs to the modern world, this article, while the same as the South China Morning Post article, adds some extra information about the Pentagon funding the establishment of a Rare Earth separation plant in Texas, USA.
https://www.mining-technology.com/news/russia-eyes-rare-earths-plan/
And this is the article linked in the article posted in this edit
https://www.mining-technology.com/features/us-rare-earths-lynas-contract/

[Fallenkezef]

I clicked homebrew as my group uses the V1 timeline but dated to the 80's.

We've tried a few other timelines. One we played around with was based on the German WW3 alternative history film portrayed as a documentary. I'll link it. It's surprisngly well done actualy and really worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQCM3Hu1YW4

[cpip]

I clicked homebrew as my group uses the V1 timeline but dated to the 80's.

While I was rereading the V1 timeline, it occurred to me that if it was shifted back to the Sino-Soviet Amur conflict in the late '60s, and had that blow up, it might just work for a "Twilight: 1972" sort of period.