Chaplains in T2K

[pmulcahy11b]

By the time of 2000, I imagine a chaplain something like a catholic priest in Monsignor who made a confession to his superior: "I have loved a woman, I have killed for my country, I have consorted with criminals...father, I am a priest!

[WallShadow]

One wonders how many clergy have lost their faith, seeing what horrors man can inflict on fellow man?

[Silent Hunter UK]

One wonders how many clergy have lost their faith, seeing what horrors man can inflict on fellow man?

Or people who have come to faith as they can no longer rely on fellow man - or indeed see that the End Times are coming.

Have you ever read Warday? There are a number of priest characters in that.

[CDAT]

So here is my chaplain question for the group. Under current laws of war Chaplains can not touch weapons, this is the reason every one is assigned an aid. I am guessing that this would fall by the wayside but would it be before or after "you are on your own". Thoughts, if after then they (the character) would not start with a weapon, if before they would. But either way would they have much skill with it?

[The Dark]

So here is my chaplain question for the group. Under current laws of war Chaplains can not touch weapons, this is the reason every one is assigned an aid. I am guessing that this would fall by the wayside but would it be before or after "you are on your own". Thoughts, if after then they (the character) would not start with a weapon, if before they would. But either way would they have much skill with it?After. I would expect many denominations to recall all their chaplains if the military required them to be armed.

[Draq]

Like most things, I would think It would depend on the person and situation

[rcaf_777]

Under current laws of war Chaplains can not touch weapons, this is the reason every one is assigned an aid.

Actually under rule 25 of the Geneva Convention, both Medical and Religious persons are permitted to carry small arms for personnel protection and protection of their charges(Wounded) There is also (Protocol I, 8 June 1977, Art 43.2) that states chaplains are non-combatants, but dose address the issue of weapons.

The aid you talk about is not seen in many armies, outside of the US Army which has Chaplain Assistants, which carry small arms.

Many NATO nations consider Chaplains as commissioned officer, and under ago basic officer training. Most nations require them to have an ecclesiastical endorsement which come from that person completed all the requirements to be become a Chaplain in that faith. Additional a degree may also be required.

Germany is a exception as it has laws and Reichskonkordat between the Holy See and Germany, all of which prevent chaplains from joining military they are instead special civilian status.

More info can found at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_chaplain#Germany

It should also be noted that there no US military regulation that prevents Chaplains for be awarded marksmanship awards.

I remember seeing chaplains armed with pistols in Afghanistan

I don't think it would be a big deal to leave to the PC's to decide if they have a pistol or rifle (nothing else)

[ArmySGT.]

The Catholic Chaplain we would pick up and bring back to our base carried a issue sidearm in 2003-2004. Some Chaplains are also Conscientious Objectors and do not carry. The Chaplains Assistant carried an M16A2. Because of the IED threat, my MP unit would come get the Chaplain in our M1114 Uparmored humvees, then return him to Battalion later.

[Sanjuro]

A good chaplain will drop everything when the troops need help...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gewUQ8SGulU
Of course, the troops should protect them in return...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYJNaF_btvg

[rcaf_777]

Lets not forgot

Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition, which may have said by Lt. J.G. Howell M. Forgy, USN, Chaplain, USS New Orleans (CL/CA-32)

[pmulcahy11b]

So here is my chaplain question for the group. Under current laws of war Chaplains can not touch weapons, this is the reason every one is assigned an aid. I am guessing that this would fall by the wayside but would it be before or after "you are on your own". Thoughts, if after then they (the character) would not start with a weapon, if before they would. But either way would they have much skill with it?

He would not come with a weapon, for he was not issued one; however, our battalion chaplain at 24th ID went to the range with our unit every chance he got, because he loved target shooting, and he could routinely shoot Expert. (I don't know if he was allowed to wear it on his uniform.) So a chaplain could in fact be deadly accurate, just not carrying a weapon (initially?).

The chaplain's assistant, on the other hand had a fully stocked HMMWV, and was literally the most heavily-armed man in the battalion, including an M16 with M203, an M1911A1 pistol, several AT-4s, a Dragon with 3 reloads, boxes of grenades, and ours carried both a hunting knife and a dagger. Of course, he also had to have mad skills and a good knowledge of rituals and holy books from several faiths.


It should also be noted that there no US military regulation that prevents Chaplains for be awarded marksmanship awards.


OK, question answered.

[ArmySGT.]

I don't recall. However, I would swear the Catholic Chaplain I was transporting had and issue M9 pistol for self defense. I think having a pistol is a case by case basis. I could well be fully wrong on that too, as it is fourteen years later.

[pmulcahy11b]

I don't recall. However, I would swear the Catholic Chaplain I was transporting had and issue M9 pistol for self defense. I think having a pistol is a case by case basis. I could well be fully wrong on that too, as it is fourteen years later.

I've never seen a Chaplain with an issue weapon. Of course, Iraq and Afghanistan changed the rules on just about everything, and I wasn't part of that, having already medically retired.

[The Dark]

I've never seen a Chaplain with an issue weapon. Of course, Iraq and Afghanistan changed the rules on just about everything, and I wasn't part of that, having already medically retired.The last I heard (although I'm a couple years out of touch with any chaplains) was that regs (FM 27-10, Army Regulation 165-1) required chaplains to be unarmed in combat and in unit combat skills training.

More broadly, under the Geneva Conventions, chaplains are non-combatants, and one carrying a weapon could be considered to have forfeited the rights of a chaplain under Protocol I (e.g. they are not considered a POW, cannot be compelled to work, and must be provided transport between camps for visits to groups of POWs). An armed chaplain loses their protected status and, if wearing a chaplain's badge, could be found guilty of perfidy (falsifying protected status) and subjected to appropriate sentencing (usually execution, if history is any teacher). Likewise, chapel buildings (like hospitals) become legitimate targets if a weapon is taken into them - their protected status is contingent on not being used in a combat role.

Now, in the case of our current conflicts, where the opposing side isn't particularly beholden to the GC, it would make more sense to unofficially carry a personal weapon. For a more conventional conflict, less so.

[bobcat]

i have seen it both ways. it seems the closer to garrison you get the less chaplains would be carrying. given sufficient manpower shortages i could see more chaplains carrying more weapons just so they can actually get around to the soldiers that most need a chaplain. i believe a rifle would lend more credibility among front line troops, after all how can you bless something you aren't willing to do.

[mpipes]

Well, if we are talking the environment in summer 2000, my bet is "Geneva be damned"...if the chaplain wants a gun he will have it be it a pick up or issued. I think ultimately it would depend on the chaplain and the tenants or their convictions and faith. However, once the nukes are flying and things grow really desperate, no one is really going to raise a fuss about who is armed as far as Geneva is concerned.

[dragoon500ly]

I've been looking over some of the TO&Es for the 1970s and 1980s, and there was no authorized weapon for the chaplain, the captain's assistant was authorized an M-16. There were two MTO&Es, one for 2nd Armored Division Forward, dated May, 1981 and one for 2nd Infantry Division, dated January, 1985 that authorized pistols for the chaplain. Both of the MTO&Es were removed within the same year of issue.

These were the only two of thirty-one reviewed that mentioned armed chaplains.

[The Dark]

i have seen it both ways. it seems the closer to garrison you get the less chaplains would be carrying. given sufficient manpower shortages i could see more chaplains carrying more weapons just so they can actually get around to the soldiers that most need a chaplain. i believe a rifle would lend more credibility among front line troops, after all how can you bless something you aren't willing to do.The flip side of that (and an argument I've seen from chaplains) is how can you speak about putting trust in God if you put your trust in an M16 instead of God? I can see points on both sides, and I expect there'd be a split, with some chaplains taking one position and some the other. I don't think there's a right answer, but either one can give a good basis for characterization of either a PC or NPC chaplain.

Well, if we are talking the environment in summer 2000, my bet is "Geneva be damned"...if the chaplain wants a gun he will have it be it a pick up or issued. I think ultimately it would depend on the chaplain and the tenants or their convictions and faith. However, once the nukes are flying and things grow really desperate, no one is really going to raise a fuss about who is armed as far as Geneva is concerned. I was thinking on that, and I agree the conventions would go out the window around the time the nukes start flying. After that, it would be a matter of conscience. My gut instinct is that Evangelicals and Catholics would be more likely to go armed, with non-evangelical Protestants less likely, but that's only based on each group's approach to just war theory, and I could be totally wrong (and I have no clue how non-Christian chaplains would approach it).

[ArmySGT.]

The last I heard (although I'm a couple years out of touch with any chaplains) was that regs (FM 27-10, Army Regulation 165-1) required chaplains to be unarmed in combat and in unit combat skills training.

More broadly, under the Geneva Conventions, chaplains are non-combatants, and one carrying a weapon could be considered to have forfeited the rights of a chaplain under Protocol I (e.g. they are not considered a POW, cannot be compelled to work, and must be provided transport between camps for visits to groups of POWs). An armed chaplain loses their protected status and, if wearing a chaplain's badge, could be found guilty of perfidy (falsifying protected status) and subjected to appropriate sentencing (usually execution, if history is any teacher). Likewise, chapel buildings (like hospitals) become legitimate targets if a weapon is taken into them - their protected status is contingent on not being used in a combat role.

Now, in the case of our current conflicts, where the opposing side isn't particularly beholden to the GC, it would make more sense to unofficially carry a personal weapon. For a more conventional conflict, less so.

A pistol is usually typified as a defensive weapon due to short range and small cartridge. You will find Doctors and Nurses armed with pistols too.

[James Langham2]

In the British Army chaplains are unarmed. They are commissioned officers with a status of CF4 (Chaplain to the Forces grade 4 = Captain), CF3 (=Major) and CF2 (=Lt Col). They undertake a short course at Sandhurst for specialists (after ordaining) known colloquially as the "Vicars and Tarts Course."

They are banned from carrying weapons (indeed there was a fuss when one was photographed with a weapon in Afghanistan but many are interested in shooting (2 Para's chaplain in the early 1980s coached their shooting team).

They do not have assistants.

[dragoon500ly]

In the U.S. military, chaplains are supposed to be unarmed, so I'm a bit puzzled about these stories of chaplains carrying such a variety of weapons. I've reviewed over 120 TO&Es and only two mention chaplain being armed, and equally interesting, both of these were removed within 12 months of being released. IMHO this indicates that when a chaplain is armed, they are violating military regulations, as well as the Geneva Conventions. Having said this, there are no regulations forbidding a chaplain from earning a shooting badge, they simply cannot carry a weapon in a combat zone.

As far as the chaplain's assistant, they are more drivers and administrative assistants, hence they are not violating regulations or Conventions if they go armed. In practice (Vietnam and Korea), they acted as a "bodyguard" for the chaplain.

As for medical personnel, this is a bit more open as they can be armed for self-defense purposes, especially in a guerrilla war where the rebels do not honor the Conventions. Indeed, in Vietnam especially, medics carried pistols and rifles, armed their ambulances and didn't hesitate to return fire when attacked.

In addition, Doctors and Nurses, in the U. S. Military, are commissioned officers and are authorized to carry pistols, but are not to engage in combat. I know, doesn't make sense, but it is the military and nowhere does it say it has to make sense.

So, for a T2K scenario, what does the poor GM do? It's your game, your decision is final.

[Silent Hunter UK]

I rather think the Geneva Convention has gone out of the proverbial window by this point.

[unkated]

Chaplains may feel they are held by a higher level agreement than the Geneva Convention.

[swaghauler]

Am I the only one who reads this thread and envisions the Priest from Hot Fuzz saying "F*** off grasshopper!" as he puts two into the hero? :)

[James Langham2]

Chaplains may feel they are held by a higher level agreement than the Geneva Convention.

I can see a padre assisting fight marauders to defend a village for example. Might make a great NPC, a padre who fought as he had to defend others and now feels conflicted and tormented.

[Adm.Lee]

Am I the only one who reads this thread and envisions the Priest from Hot Fuzz saying "F*** off grasshopper!" as he puts two into the hero? :)

And no one's mentioned Shepherd Book from "Firefly"?

Zoe: "Doesn't the Bible have pretty specific things to say about killing?"
Book, loading a weapon: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzy around the subject of kneecaps."

And if you watch the following combat scene, he's not aiming above the waist.

Also, "I wasn't always a Shepherd."

[James Langham2]

And no one's mentioned Shepherd Book from "Firefly"?

Zoe: "Doesn't the Bible have pretty specific things to say about killing?"
Book, loading a weapon: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzy around the subject of kneecaps."

And if you watch the following combat scene, he's not aiming above the waist.

Also, "I wasn't always a Shepherd."

Much as I love it he's really a bad example as reading Joss Wheedon's info he is actually an agent who takes the identity of a dead priest (another nice NPC idea!)

[James Langham2]

Actually another thought - the film "The Mission" gives a perfect example of the soldier who tormented by his crimes becomes a priest and has to decide if he should take up arms with the natives against the SPanish.

[CDAT]

I was talking with my cousin this last weekend (who this is what he does in the Air Force) and according to him, they are not allowed to carry arms or even train with them. And if they were to pick one up in a battle and use it even to defend them self they would be charged under the UCMJ after the battle. How does this apply to the T2K? My guess is that it would be very late in the game before many of them would start to carry weapons, so I could see them not starting the game with one, but after the game started it would be up to the individual and his/her faith on if they would pick one up post battle or try and trade for one. And none of this means that they can not know about them or even have skill in using them. My cousin transferred in from Security Forces (so I hope he would know something about weapons, and he was saying that his boss in chaplains core is a triathlon or something like that so he shoots as part of his sport.)

[CraigD6er]

Not to derail this from journalists, but another option for a good character would be the combat chaplain. I'm recalling It Took Heroes by Claude Newby, about his service as an LDS chaplain that would accompany troops on patrols and missions. Obviously he's not going to be doing the fighting but if I recall correctly he had, unofficially, a handgun for self defence and carried part of the load for troops that were struggling. Such a character would be a boon for parties that aren't just the "kill 'em all and let God sort it out" types but prefer a bit more role playing.

[Raellus]

@Homer: Thanks for that helpful info.

@CraigD6r: I've long toyed with the idea of playing a Chaplain or Chaplain's Assistant in T2k. Using v1-2.2, such a character would be pretty useless, outside of strictly RP purposes. 4e actually makes the role useful, mechanically-speaking. It has mechanics for stress and mental trauma, sustained via combat (or witnessing various horrors of war). A character with the Counseling specialty has a better chance to heal another character's mental trauma. I built a Chaplain's Assistant PC using the Medic archetype and giving him the Counselor specialty instead of the suggested medical specialties. I figured he'd be called upon to assist unit's actual medic, so it's a secondary specialty (so he effectively serves as the party's psychiatrist and combat medic). For an actual Chaplain, I'd use the officer template and give him/her the Counselor specialty.

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[chico20854]

[I've long toyed with the idea of playing a Chaplain or Chaplain's Assistant in T2k. Using v1-2.2, such a character would be pretty useless, outside of strictly RP purposes. I built a Chaplain's Assistant PC using the Medic archetype and giving him the Counselor specialty instead of the suggested medical specialties. I figured he'd be called upon to assist unit's actual medic, so it's a secondary specialty (so he effectively serves as the party's psychiatrist and combat medic)

An awful lot of Chaplain Assistants I ran into had a Rambo complex. I'm not sure if it was out of a sense that they had a responsibility to defend an unarmed chaplain, or trying to compensate for their reputation as the "softest" MOS in the Army!

[Homer]

One battalion had the “super-UMT”. The chaplain was a prior service SF comms guy (better S-6 than the S-6). His assistant was an ex 11C Batt Boy, had ETSd and decided to come back as as a chaplains assistant. Needless to say, everyone wanted to get JMPI’d by chappie!

In T2K I thinking they’d become something like the Preacher and Hull in Pale Rider.

[Ursus Maior]

Shepherd Book in Firefly comes to mind also.

[Homer]

Very apt. It’s hard to feel sorry for yourself when the chaplain is gutting out that movement to daylight with you.

[Higgipedia]

In the U.S. military, chaplains are supposed to be unarmed, so I'm a bit puzzled about these stories of chaplains carrying such a variety of weapons. I've reviewed over 120 TO&Es and only two mention chaplain being armed, and equally interesting, both of these were removed within 12 months of being released. IMHO this indicates that when a chaplain is armed, they are violating military regulations, as well as the Geneva Conventions. Having said this, there are no regulations forbidding a chaplain from earning a shooting badge, they simply cannot carry a weapon in a combat zone.

Most Chaplains I've been around downrange were unarmed, as they are supposed to be. I can think of one, who was an Weapons Squad Leader in Gulf War I, who insisted on having an M4 when we were convoying out during the initial Iraq invasion in 2003. He was one of those crusading Baptist types who thought all of the Muslims were animals. PFC Higgins wasn't going to challenge a Chaplain, that's for sure. Of course, I have a pretty contentious relationship with the concept and influence of chaplains in the military. Largely because of guys like this.

[Higgipedia]

An awful lot of Chaplain Assistants I ran into had a Rambo complex. I'm not sure if it was out of a sense that they had a responsibility to defend an unarmed chaplain, or trying to compensate for their reputation as the "softest" MOS in the Army!

HA. We had a Chaplain's Assistant who pissed hot for cocaine on a battalion-wide drug test. When they confronted her about it, she said it must have been what she THOUGHT was powdered sugar her boyfriend put on her pancakes.

[Raellus]

I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that Poland was alone amongst the Warsaw Pact armed forces in having a military chaplain service (due to Poland's strong Catholic tradition), but I have so far not been able to confirm or bely this hazy memory.

Does anyone know one way or the other?

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[kato13]

https://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/13/world/protests-capture-holiday-in-poland.html

NYT confirms as of 1988

Poland's are the only armed forces in the Warsaw Pact to have chaplains.

[Ursus Maior]

The Polish did things differently to an extant that often breaks the idea of a monolithic Kremlin controlled Eastern bloc asunder. They also used different small unit structures than the rest, e. g. they didn't switch away from GPMGs to LMGs and had tripods assigned to their third squads in platoons for fire support. They also built their own wheeled APCs and amphibious APCs together with the Czechoslovakians, instead of buying BTR-60s or BTR-50s (although some of the latter were initially purchased).

Also, they allegedly were focussing more on individual initiative than was taught in general Soviet doctrine. They didn't quite switch towards "mission-type tactics" (German: "Auftragstaktik"), but freedom of decisions was greater with NCOs and subaltern officers than in the Soviet Army.