Possible Module Followups

[Olefin]

Looking for ideas for new releases for possible module followups along the lines of the Return to Europe series

Things like possibly a follow up to Kings Ransom or Armies of the Night or Urban Guerrilla - what would people be interested in the most

Not a rewrite in any way but a return to familiar areas later in the timeline - i.e. for instance Kings Ransom and actually see what the effects would be if the raid on the conference had occurred as postulated - or looking at US or French forces in Iraq versus the Soviets and their Iraq allies as a follow up to the RDF

[Matt Wiser]

A follow-up to King's Ransom would be good. Getting caught up in the last Soviet offensive in the Middle East...though any vets of Europe would be reminded of Kalisz...

[Olefin]

Actually the last Soviet offensive in Iran is probably going to end up with the Soviet version of Kalisz - especially with the hints dropped in Kings Ransom as to the instablity of the Tudeh and that one unit in particular - wondering if it might be more like the Battle of Leipzip when the Saxons joined the Prussians against Napoleon and tipped the battle against him

Especially given the 2300 history and the Iranian Saudi war of 2008 - thats a pretty strong hint that the Soviet last offensive doesnt go very well

[WallShadow]

I would love to see sequels to Armies of the Night, Allegheny Uprising, and Going Home (or, "Left Behind" as it were).

[Adm.Lee]

It feels like it would be beyond the scope of the rules as they stand, but I'd like to see things move up in scale. How do these broken countries knit themselves back together? {I know that answers exist in 2300AD, but bear with me}

That's probably not helpful to the original question, so I will continue to ponder.

[Olefin]

Remember that the 2300AD timeline is more a guideline that an actual timeline that has to be followed by Twilight 2000 - for one big reason that so much of it is vague (on person I suspect and there was no inkling that the Twilight 2000 timeline development was going to get suspended by GDW going out of business)

this leaves flexibility in followups - for instance one thing that writers could do is leap forward a couple of years (with Marc Miller's agreement of course) for a followup - i.e. you wouldnt necessarily have to have it set in the early spring of 2001 which is where the released modules and sourcebooks pretty much ended -

also Marc is open to some changes in the proposed timeline as was suggested in Howling Wilderness and the Challenge Magazine articles - not wholesale revision but some modifications, for instance, that would resolve discrepancies between the various modules - even things like work how New America's plans being fully revealed by the events of Kidnapped might bring CivGov and MilGov together faster, at least on a military level, in operations against New America - i.e. the enemy of my enemy is my friend - especially after the plans to subordinate CivGov become known

[Olefin]

I would love to see sequels to Armies of the Night, Allegheny Uprising, and Going Home (or, "Left Behind" as it were).

Actually thats one thing I am looking into - a possible sequel to Going Home where the DIA works with whats left of the US command structure and armed forces in Europe to try to get the cutoff XI Corps back to German Army lines and possibly home - or to reinforce CENTCOM

[Ewan]

What would be an interesting module would be one detailing The Saudi War (2010 to 2013) from the original Traveller:2300 game.
France, Great Britain, Bavaria, Japan and Egypt occupied the Saudi oil fields in 2008 (to assure oil production for Europe) replacing United States forces which had been in the region since the start of World War III. Iran objected to the occupation and the Saudi War (2010 to 2013) began with an Iranian attack on the occupation forces and ended with the establishment of a buffer zone along the northern edge of the Saudi peninsula.

Thus would could be the third sourcebook of a trilogy detailing the Persian Gulf which started with RDF Sourcebook and then maybe one detailing the period 2002 to 2010 and the the final sourcebook detailing The Saudi War.

[cawest]

i would like to see something on getting the Suez Canal open... maybe only to high speed (15knots or better) ships. i was thinking that it was closed due to a couple of wrecks or the nuks drop on each end of the thing.

that would lead to more trade between Brits, France to the Persian Gulf and any future conflicts in that area

[Olefin]

What would be an interesting module would be one detailing The Saudi War (2010 to 2013) from the original Traveller:2300 game.
France, Great Britain, Bavaria, Japan and Egypt occupied the Saudi oil fields in 2008 (to assure oil production for Europe) replacing United States forces which had been in the region since the start of World War III. Iran objected to the occupation and the Saudi War (2010 to 2013) began with an Iranian attack on the occupation forces and ended with the establishment of a buffer zone along the northern edge of the Saudi peninsula.

Thus would could be the third sourcebook of a trilogy detailing the Persian Gulf which started with RDF Sourcebook and then maybe one detailing the period 2002 to 2010 and the the final sourcebook detailing The Saudi War.

One thing I am trying to remember - was the original 2300AD for Traveller done with the first edition of the game or the second

In the first edition Japan basically comes thru almost intact - where in the second edition they get nuked big time by the Soviets

[The Dark]

One thing I am trying to remember - was the original 2300AD for Traveller done with the first edition of the game or the second

In the first edition Japan basically comes thru almost intact - where in the second edition they get nuked big time by the Soviets

First. T2K v1 came out in '84, T:2300 in '86, 2300 AD in '88, and T2K v2 in '90.


I've got two things I'd like to see: more about the Caribbean and Gulf (following on from Red Star, Urban Guerillas, and Spanish Main), and more off-beat adventures in the vein of Twilight Nightmares.

[mpipes]

It would be nice to have something setting out the conflict in Asia/China. Europe was almost paradise from how I interpreted the little bit of official information that came out.

[pmulcahy11b]

First. T2K v1 came out in '84, T:2300 in '86, 2300 AD in '88, and T2K v2 in '90.


I've got two things I'd like to see: more about the Caribbean and Gulf (following on from Red Star, Urban Guerillas, and Spanish Main), and more off-beat adventures in the vein of Twilight Nightmares.

Frank Chadwick told me when I visited them that they were working on 2300 and T2K v2 at about the same time, but 2300 was nearly ready to go while v2 was in sort of an embryonic stage.

[Olefin]

Frank Chadwick told me when I visited them that they were working on 2300 and T2K v2 at about the same time, but 2300 was nearly ready to go while v2 was in sort of an embryonic stage.

It sure seems like V2 never really got off the ground - except for the various sourcebooks it never really went anywhere - and always wondered how they were going to reconcile the differences - i.e. Japan in V1 pretty much being unhit versus V2 where it gets nuked after taking the Soviets on, Korea being unified in V2 versus non-unified in V1, etc..

[Olefin]

FYI one reason its hard to do module followups is the whole albatross around the neck of writers like me that is Howling Wilderness - after re-reading it again I am basically still standing by my statement that it painted GDW into a corner as to the future of the game - basically it kills off the US and makes campaigning in the US into nothing more than a game of Aftermath or Fallout.

Even if you accept the (completely unrealistic) drought as canon and its effects on the US and try go forward from there the simple fact is that the history of the American units in the US is frankly nonsensical - especially considering that it has multiple MilGov units basically melting away and disappearing between June 2000 and April 2001 - when if anything those units would be getting bigger either by adding reinforcements from Europe or by recruiting locally since the best way to stay alive in a low food environment would be to join the military similar to what happened in Krakow

Let alone events that make no sense - MilGov pulling the 40th out of Bakersfield and basically abandoning the last oil production area in CA when the rest of HW goes out of its way stating that MilGov is doing everything it can to hold onto areas that are still producing oil

And the wasting away of units is at a pace that its hard to believe there would be any intact military units left by the end of the summer

Two examples - the 40th goes from 24 tanks and 3000 men to 1200 men and 3 tanks (with 900 going to join the 46th) and the 46th goes from 1000 men to 1100 men - but only because 900 men join up from the 40th.

So that means the 46th has 800 of its 1000 men desert or get killed in 9 months and somehow the division is intact when the 900 men from the 40th arrive?

And what happens to the 78th is worse - it has 1000 soldiers in June 2000 but by December of 2000 only 100 are left when the 800 men show up from Norfolk to bring them up to 900? The division had 90 percent of their men desert or became casualties over six months and somehow it survived as a cohesive unit until the 800 new men show up?

Add in that MilGov lets the two biggest collections of AFV's in NA just waste away - 36 tanks in the 194th to 8 (when they have plenty of gas and if they did go to the tank plant in Lima a huge collection of M1 spare parts to keep them going) and the 24 tanks in the 40th go to 3 (again stationed in an area that is still producing oil) when there are no replacements since they abandoned everything in Europe?

It would be one thing if you saw this as a pattern elsewhere in other modules - but you dont see this pattern of units having huge changes in numbers of personnel or vehicles.

Example - Going Home - almost every US unit in November of 2000 have the same number of men and tanks they had in June of 2000 - i.e. 36th has 5000 men and 35 tanks in US Army Vehicle Guide on June 1 - and at Going Home it has 5000 men and 35 tanks - i.e. no loss of men or equipment at all in 5 months.

Yet in the US with a lot more access to manpower and spare parts and in many cases petroleum fuel the units are withering away, not recruiting new personnel and worse yet not even using the men who came home - many of whom are in units that arrived at Bremerhaven intact and still obeying orders - and thus could have been stood up at the pier in Norfolk as intact units to send out to help stabilize the country?

They had multiple divisions show up intact and fully functional with intact command structures at Bremerhaven - where did they go? A perfect example is the 28th - its the PA National Guard after all. The state is mostly in chaos, the western part is being preyed on by a homicidal marauder group and the eastern areas are out of control refugee camps - and five months after landing in Norfolk no one has sent the 28th to PA to try to bring some kind of order to the state?

[mpipes]

I think most of us all regarded HW as completely unworkable and unrealistic on a lot of levels. I basically ignored it for most part.

[Olefin]

definitely have ideas for followups - but I am in the dilemma where to be able to write something plausible and fun for players I may have to modify canon to do it - and I dont mean a simple mod like bringing the 2nd AD to Africa for Kenya but instead basically say "no the 40th didnt break up in CA" or "no MilGov wasnt stupid and wasted 43000 men they brought home at the cost of literally almost all the remaining US AFV's"

even something as simple as using bucket brigades and horses or people dragging carts with water tanks on them to bring water out of rivers for irrigation - which given the huge amount of people who knew that its either do this or starve would have done it - i.e. you dont need electricity and oil to irrigate fields - they have been doing it for over seven thousand years that we know of if not longer - and yes its backbreaking work and really labor intensive - but you dont starve to death - and thats exactly why the US military would be recruiting - to be able to guard those laborers and get their crops in and keep marauders away while they do it

[mpipes]

An idea----

Rework HW into something half way realistic. I just don't buy things getting so desperate in the US it ends up worse than Poland, which was badly depopulated by DOZENS of tactical nuclear weapons and constant war over 5 years.

[Olefin]

talking to Marc - HW is canon but he is open to some mods to the canon - so will see what can be done - I think Loren went way way way too far - and ignored many of the previous modules as to dates and events in them that HW is contradicting - and any canon is only as good as its relevance to earlier releases - so if Ozarks is released earlier and contradicts HW then HW can be overruled in that aspect

Ozarks basically states that the 49th is intact and that Armies of the Night succeeded in MilGov being able to at least get some foothold into NYC as to where the characters might have come from to play it - plus the timeline clearly is different then what is in HW - so there is precedent for saying HW can be ignored in some ways based on previous canon to some extent

[cawest]

talking to Marc - HW is canon but he is open to some mods to the canon - so will see what can be done - I think Loren went way way way too far - and ignored many of the previous modules as to dates and events in them that HW is contradicting - and any canon is only as good as its relevance to earlier releases - so if Ozarks is released earlier and contradicts HW then HW can be overruled in that aspect

Ozarks basically states that the 49th is intact and that Armies of the Night succeeded in MilGov being able to at least get some foothold into NYC as to where the characters might have come from to play it - plus the timeline clearly is different then what is in HW - so there is precedent for saying HW can be ignored in some ways based on previous canon to some extent

I'm sure what ever you do to HW to fix the huge list of issues would be great... IE i would get a copy of it (if it was fixed) and i'm not an active player. could you list it as HWv2 or HW updated?

[Olefin]

I dont think you will ever see an official HW revision or modification except fan canon like my Olefin Universe thread - but having followups released that follow other earlier released canon modules as to timeline and events and thus "correct" HW is a distinct possibility - i.e. like having the aforementioned 28th Infantry march as a unit to PA to try to put the state back together

Or for that matter the fact that HW was published before the Last Submarine Trilogy was completed - and thus had no mention whatsoever of the sub making it home with the two scientists and their way to generate power - that is a big possible change right there

Boomer was released several months after HW by Loren - he had to be working on it at the same time - that omission is a big one for sure in HW - getting even a single power station of that type on line means you have power to pump water out of rivers or underground reservoirs, recharge batteries, etc. - and they would be getting home in time to make a big difference in the timeline

obviously he couldnt put it in HW about the end of Boomer - both Med Cruise and Boomer were still in development and hadnt been released - getting that sub home with those scientists is a game and timeline changer - so right there is one way to change and update HW "legally" - because those events definitely occur AFTER April 2001

[mpipes]

Olefin...

That reminds me of one of the big problems I had with HW, and the Twilight 2000 setting...nuclear power plants.

These were situated away from other targets and would have been vital for recovery efforts. No need to drill for oil and gas. I've always seen these a priority for governments (national, regional, local) to secure and protect and use as bases for recovery efforts.

[ArmySGT.]

Even if you accept the (completely unrealistic) drought as canon and its effects on the US and try go forward from there the simple fact is that the history of the American units in the US is frankly nonsensical - especially considering that it has multiple MilGov units basically melting away and disappearing between June 2000 and April 2001 - when if anything those units would be getting bigger either by adding reinforcements from Europe or by recruiting locally since the best way to stay alive in a low food environment would be to join the military similar to what happened in Krakow

Not unrealistic. Completely in line with military history right up to modern times. For America you can use the Revolution (Valley Forge) and The Civil War (Union Forces in the first two years, Confederate in the second).

When the soldiers are not paid or fed they desert. Some slip off with their equipment and become criminals. Some take their stuff and go home, like literally home, to be with and take care of their families. Some changes sides, since if the enemy is paying their troops and feeding their troops something must be right.

Your also not factoring in disease. By 98 large scale pharmaceutical manufacturing is lost and tender 20 century immune systems are not up to the challenges of dysentery, cholera, typhus, and other diseases. Even a small outbreak and a few rumors of disease would turn small desertion into large desertion with troops stealing vehicles plus supplies to get far away.

Last, racial tensions. Minorities are a larger percentage of Services than represented in the larger civil population.

Military history of every kind of campaign anywhere in the world shows us multiples examples of desertion fading armies into small pitiful war bands.

[Olefin]

Some desertion sure - 80 and 90 percent? No way - especially since staying together means you can protect the food you are growing and can beat off marauders and desperate people looking for food

and in this case they would be getting fed - i.e. they are in cantonments and getting fed thru that whole period - its not till after April that it becomes apparent there is going to be a big time problem with getting food -

look at A Rock in Troubled Waters - per that article there is no problem feeding the soldiers and civilians in southern NJ - and they have comparatively easy duty with the State Militia to back them up - and yet they desert in huge numbers compared to say the 43rd who was surrounded on all sides by marauders and hostile forces but still was in pretty good shape right up to the April 2001 mutiny

and if anything after it was known that food was going to be tight it would be a bigger incentive to hang together - good luck keeping any food you grow if its you and your M-16 at your family farm holding off thousands of hungry people

on the other hand 1000 massed M-16's protecting the fields and food supplies in your cantonment probably would do the job easily

[The Dark]

I can see both sides of the argument. On the pro-desertion side, when these guys hear things are going to hell in a handbasket, a lot of them are going to want to get back to their families, similar to how the rate of desertion of Georgian troops in the US Civil War spiked during and after Sherman's siege of Atlanta. In the Appalachians, there were instances of deserters from the Confederate Army forming their own units that fought off Confederate regulars. A historical study of the deserters found there were two common factors that led to desertion: hardship among their families and finding out their home district wasn't united in support of the effort. With the MilGov/CivGov split (and New America), there's likely to be wavering support in many districts, and severe hardship among soldiers' families, which will cause desertion higher than usual. I don't know if it would reach 80-90%, but given that the Soviet Border Troops had 60-80% desertion rates during the Afghanistan War, it's likely it would be much higher than most people would suspect.

[ArmySGT.]

Some desertion sure - 80 and 90 percent? No way - especially since staying together means you can protect the food you are growing and can beat off marauders and desperate people looking for food
Easily.. 90 percent... Napoleons campaign into Russia. These units your talking about as "Divisions" with that number are a Division on paper. A company is approximately 100 men. A Battalion is 3 to 5 companies (CA 3 and CS or CSS 5), a Brigade is 3 to five battalions..... These "Divisions" are below the operational strength of a Brigade. Their already broken, demoralized, under trained, under staffed, and without Corps or Army commands to make even the suggestion of Orders.

Why stay? These troops are in the Continental U.S. and probably desperate for news about family after the TDM and with the drought. A unit this size goes through tons (literal tons) of food and fuel per day. What ever rations they have are coming from somewhere else because in less than a month a unit that size will have consumed every scrap of food and eaten the livestock.

Grow food? Who is doing that for them? These guys grew up in NY, LA, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Dallas, Houston, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Nashville, etc, etc, etc... The 18 - 30 year olds have never ever grow anything let alone seen a garden. Before you think "Ah ha! Someone comes from somewhere food grows". The overwhelming majority of the services are low income urban kids. The small town kids you hope could grow something came from towns, not farms. Even the kids that grew up on farms joined the Army to get away from that. They can drive the tractor, but probably know little about seed, planting, maintaining, and harvest.

The only way anyone of these "Divisions" is growing food is to enslave the locals or barter for the locals to grow it (aka extortion).

"and in this case they would be getting fed - i.e. they are in cantonments and getting fed thru that whole period - its not till after April that it becomes apparent there is going to be a big time problem with getting food - "

Fed what? Three squares? There is being fed and then being fed.... For 54 days in 2003 I ate two MREs a day because the supply chain couldn't keep up and the trucks essentially mugged by units before they reached us. Is that fed? Yeah. I hate peanuts and peanut anything to this day.

Troops are getting fed and if you ask a Soldier anywhere, chow sucks. Food is probably the number one morale item. Lots of food and lots of variety prepared better than a 5 star steakhouse and don't skimp on any trimmings.

Now in this.. Boiled potatoes, soup, bread, and butter is fed. Troops down at the bottom, the Privates and Corporals have no idea and no thought to next month. Their immediate concerns are today and tomorrow (when do we quit, when do we eat, when can I drink, what time do I have to be back) not April, May, June or any other date.

Getting food is on the G3, and each layer of S3 below that guy. Those guys probably have to move about with bodyguards by this point.

look at A Rock in Troubled Waters - per that article there is no problem feeding the soldiers and civilians in southern NJ - and they have comparatively easy duty with the State Militia to back them up - and yet they desert in huge numbers compared to say the 43rd who was surrounded on all sides by marauders and hostile forces but still was in pretty good shape right up to the April 2001 mutiny Being on the coast those troops are probably damned tired of cod, but love those virginia hams. NJ borders Maryland, Pennsylvania, and New York city so benefits from the Pennsylvania Dutch, and trade still coming to the docks in NJ and NYC. Not being landlocked is probably the secret to that success.

and if anything after it was known that food was going to be tight it would be a bigger incentive to hang together - good luck keeping any food you grow if its you and your M-16 at your family farm holding off thousands of hungry people 6-8 people in a log stockade can hold off hundreds on foot. Even with bow saws and not chainsaws a frontier fort can go up quickly. Farm animals on the ground floor is free heat to the humans on the second and third floors. People have been doing this for centuries. More over those are people you know and can count on (mostly) who aren't going to desert you or throw you out.

on the other hand 1000 massed M-16's protecting the fields and food supplies in your cantonment probably would do the job easily Oh yeah... 1000 rifles in the hands of 18 year olds with impulse control issues that hate being told what to do and hate their squad leader, platoon leader, and LT because he is white, black, hispanic, asian, northern, southern, red neck, cholo, ghetto, ignorant, too smart, etc, etc.

Doubt that. Snuffy is going to take his pack and his rifle and go home even if he has to walk there. That 1000 other guys isn't family and few of them friends.

The only thing keeping Pvt Snuffy from deserting really is the very real threat of death by hanging if he is caught after deserting.

[Olefin]

Those guys have been growing their own food for quite a while - the basic supply system broke down in 1998 and they have been growing their own since 1999 - so even if they are city dwellers they would either have gotten used to planting their own crops or they would have found people to do it for them while they guarded them - which is another argument against them going over the hill - i.e. if they didnt know how to grow food good luck surviving on their own

As for the 78th - they werent getting any food coming in from NYC - and as A Rock In Troubled Waters states the Amish areas (Lancaster PA is mentioned specifically and thats where they are) were overrun by refugees and basically on the edge of starvation - meaning they werent getting any food from there - and HW does say the Amish basically got wiped out - thus the area around them is basically starving while they are getting fed and no one is hungry in their area - thus deserting makes no sense - versus say being based in West Texas where any drought means pretty quickly you are eating your own leather shoes after the last of the rations runs out

So again 80-90 percent desertion rates when a) they are growing their own food and able to feed themselves and defend that food when going AWOL means you might starve and b) the areas around you are overrun with marauder and bandit and cannibal groups that love to pick off small encampments and family groups - which you would know after seeing that happen ever since 1999 - is definitely not realistic

[Olefin]

its very interesting how much Twilight 2000 and its fan base is split up like the Christian church is - with the Howling Wilderness/Kidnapped defenders in many ways being like the born again Protestants who defend every word in the Bible as being canonical no matter what it says even if it contradicts itself

Meanwhile those who dont want to use HW and Kidnapped or argue for changes in them in many ways are more like those in the Church who are more willing to accept that perhaps some areas of the Bible may have issues, either from translation or who actually authored them and need to discussed and debated to determine those particular areas of validity within the overall Church canon

i.e. to use an example - those who see HW and Kidnapped as canon and have no issues with it even if it contradicts earlier canon versus those who see that the drought as described would have killed off the US for good and there would have been no MilGov and CivGov to make peace in 2020 (Traveler 2300AD timeline canon which came from the Great Game) let alone the contradictions in HW to earlier canon releases that they say should be resolved in a possible re-release or correction

And FYI - one reason I have argued over the years for an update to HW is that there are modules released after it came out that could radically change its proposed history - getting the sub home with those two scientists means you have a nuclear sub to generate power and electricity somewhere on the US East Coast (not mentioned in HW) and you have two scientists in the US that can make cheap fusion reactors with materials that could be scavenged (definitely not mentioned in HW) - let alone getting the weather satellite data from Satellite down (again not mentioned in HW) - add all those in and the supposed history of 2001 after April could be changed immensely from what Loren wrote

Example of why writing new material can be an issue if you try to please everyone - lets say I did a story where the 28th Infantry (which is the PA National Guard) (who showed up at Bremerhaven organized and following command orders loyal to MilGov and the US Army per canon in Going Hom ) as a body leaves Norfolk, goes to PA and finds some of the other troves mentioned in Allegheny Uprising to equip itself with Bradleys and other vehicles and then starts to stabilize the state - you will have those who will really enjoy that and avidly read it - and others who will cry "not mentioned in HW at all!" and argue that it cannot be considered canon because it wasnt in HW when it was released (even though having the 28th go home to PA is basically common sense)

and for the record I can see both sides of the argument and the validity of both sides and appreciate how both sides feel (as a Christian too - lets say my family encompasses both sides of the Bible argument and it does make for lively discussion)

[mpipes]

I guess I am a heretic!!

I changed what I did not like in the campaign I had/have.

The US was not a total basket case. A LOT of nuclear power plants were intact. The Anniston Army Depot (and a tank plant), Red River Depot, and quite a few refineries in OK and Arkansas/Louisiana were intact. F-16 factory in Ft. Worth undamaged along with F-15 plant in St Louis. The Lima tank plant undamaged. York, Pa vehicle factories untouched.

Overall unit strength was down to about 1/4 pre-war. Average NATO vehicle strength was down by 75% on average with a few units having about 1/3 tank strength. Pact units down to between 10% to 30% vehicle/personnel strength.

Yes, you had a lot of devastation. But I just did not buy into the TOTAL devastation you see in HW. Neither side launched all their nukes. What was launched was a strike aimed at power/energy infrastructure - a limited countervalue strike. Unless you had both sides going for an all out countervalue strike aimed at the populations - cities- A LOT of people, and more importantly, a lot of industry will be unharmed.

I also did not buy 100% into the EMP damage being as severe. Not that it could have been done, but I think technical limitations on the existing ICBM/SLBM force would have limited the ability for either side to get nuclear weapons into optimal positions for the EMP effect contemplated by GDW. I think EMP would have been more localized. Also, a lot of stuff would be stored in metal building that I have often thought of as giant Faraday cages.

[simonmark6]

"It's very interesting how much Twilight 2000 and its fan base is split up like the Christian church is - with the Howling Wilderness/Kidnapped defenders in many ways being like the born again Protestants who defend every word in the Bible as being canonical no matter what it says even if it contradicts itself

Meanwhile those who don't want to use HW and Kidnapped or argue for changes in them in many ways are more like those in the Church who are more willing to accept that perhaps some areas of the Bible may have issues, either from translation or who actually authored them and need to discussed and debated to determine those particular areas of validity within the overall Church canon."

Not really, although trying to reduce a debate to a specious ad hominem false analogy in order to belittle those that disagree with you lowers the strength of your argument somewhat.

Instead of arguing over the validity of the "reality" of a work of fiction that by the nature of the collaborative story-telling element of the art form means that everyone's game will be different and will deviate from canon maybe we should focus on having fun and adding to the body of work so that people can enjoy whatever they want to take from it.

You've already done this with your new sourcebook and I'd suggest hat instead of looking to re-write canon by revisiting modules that exist that we look at expanding the areas covered before we go bac to anything already done.

[ArmySGT.]

So again 80-90 percent desertion rates when a) they are growing their own food and able to feed themselves and defend that food when going AWOL means you might starve and How are they growing their own food? Where did they get seed stock? Where did they get fertilizer and top soil? Where did they get tools? Where did they get tractors? Where did they get the discs, harrows, plows, brush cutters, seed drillers and other equipment for the tractors? Where did they come up with the knowledge and experience? Where did they learn to dry, pickle, preserve, an, and bottle it all before it just rots? That is far too muh hand waving of the details. Growing food in a garden is a skill. Growing food for hundreds is a master class in industry.

b) the areas around you are overrun with marauder and bandit and cannibal groups that love to pick off small encampments and family groups - which you would know after seeing that happen ever since 1999 - is definitely not realistic Those groups are not realistically going to last. Defenders with preparation have the advantage, it take three to five attackers for each defender. an they siege you? Yes, probably. If those groups are starving as badly as you say they are; how long an they lay siege?

It takes an overwhelming number of attackers with their own large supply of food and everything else to take any kind of fortification. These marauders aren't going to be harvesting crops, the will want it piked and processed. That again lays the odds into the farmers favor. A simple five sided block house with rock infill, an be built in a few days. Built on opposing corners of homes and barns with food and water they an hold a homestead versus dozens of attackers. Look to frontier forts of the American expansion into the South West.

As for cannibals, simple disease will take are of them. That is one of those PAW memes that are made to mush of. Human flesh would have to be cooked very thoroughly do to infect anyone eating it.

[Olefin]

Per canon the military formations are growing their own food by 1999 in the US and overseas - so pretty obviously they got what they needed to grow food the old fashioned way - they took it by force! Or they gathered up the local farmers and had them grow it for them in exchange for protection

In other words the cantonments are the feudal system all over again with the local lord protecting the farmers who in turn feed the lord and his troops.

So you cant say - well there is no way they would be growing their own food so I agree with canon desertion rates because they would be starving - when canon says they have been growing their own food for two years

thats why the fires flush that unit out of North Carolina - because the fires burn up the crops they were growing and leave them no choice

And Simon - definitely want to add to the canon - the issue is that trying do so in North America, given the contradictions, errors and other issues with HW and Kidnapped you either have to say "nope not going to write in NA" so I dont ruffle feathers and instead describe areas like East Africa that werent previously described - or I have to face it head on, correct the canon as much as possible or put my spin on it and go from there - and as I said that's definitely going to cause issues

and frankly there are lots of good stories in NA and the time is coming to face facts that HW needs to be revised or corrected - and that the events and timeline that Loren came up with - as well as the drought itself - are problematic and need to be corrected - notice I said corrected - not ignored, not completely rewritten but corrected

starting with addressing the incorrect desertion rates and other obvious inconsistencies and the fact that the sub made it home - and what happens afterward with the scientists and a sub to provide power to the Cape May or Norfolk area from its reactors

and that a one year short fall in rain can be addressed with irrigation techniques that go back 7000 years - and that dont need electricity to make them work - you can do it with manpower alone - if the Sumerians did it then the Americans can

[Olefin]

"It's very interesting how much Twilight 2000 and its fan base is split up like the Christian church is - with the Howling Wilderness/Kidnapped defenders in many ways being like the born again Protestants who defend every word in the Bible as being canonical no matter what it says even if it contradicts itself

Meanwhile those who don't want to use HW and Kidnapped or argue for changes in them in many ways are more like those in the Church who are more willing to accept that perhaps some areas of the Bible may have issues, either from translation or who actually authored them and need to discussed and debated to determine those particular areas of validity within the overall Church canon."

Not really, although trying to reduce a debate to a specious ad hominem false analogy in order to belittle those that disagree with you lowers the strength of your argument somewhat.

Instead of arguing over the validity of the "reality" of a work of fiction that by the nature of the collaborative story-telling element of the art form means that everyone's game will be different and will deviate from canon maybe we should focus on having fun and adding to the body of work so that people can enjoy whatever they want to take from it.

You've already done this with your new sourcebook and I'd suggest hat instead of looking to re-write canon by revisiting modules that exist that we look at expanding the areas covered before we go bac to anything already done.

I definitely plan on adding to the canon for sure - way too many areas not covered - even possibly looking at a collection of how countries not mentioned were affected by the war so people could use that as a basis for adventures

[Jason Weiser]

Then why even have the argument? Simon, you just basically in one breath, accused Olefin of belittling those who disagree with him, and saying "to each their own"?

I kind of wish some folks had taken that attitude with the DCWG.

Here is my biggest issue with the strict canon fans: When will they get in the ring? They tell us "How dare you write that!" and proceed to tear the author, whom has worked his ass off on a given work, I assure you, but did they write anything themselves? Nope. When I did my Australian target list, I did it partly to prove a point: The Twilight War was a WORLD war. Nobody was immune, nobody got off scot free. Was it a world ending event? No. But it is one that will be felt for a while.

So here is my challenge to the strict canonists: Write something. You don't have to submit it to Marc..but you do have to submit it for peer review here. I for one, would like to see what you come up with.

So, gentlemen, the gauntlet has been dropped..are you willing to pick it up?

[Olefin]

Not really, although trying to reduce a debate to a specious ad hominem false analogy in order to belittle those that disagree with you lowers the strength of your argument somewhat.

Actually I am not trying to belittle anyone - as I said "and for the record I can see both sides of the argument and the validity of both sides and appreciate how both sides feel (as a Christian too - lets say my family encompasses both sides of the Bible argument and it does make for lively discussion)"

And I definitely plan to address areas that havent been touched yet - as Jason said this was a world war - and thus its affects, as V2 pointed out, are truly global - and thus telling new stories in new areas is something I am working on

People here have always known I have an issue with Kidnapped and HW - when I played my GM and the players in my group loved the early US modules but were disappointed by Kidnapped and HW as to the incredibly bleak future of the US they painted (one that in my opinion and others would have destroyed the US beyond any hope of recovery in less than a century if ever and went way overboard compared, for instance, to how the timeline for the UK was handled which was much more hopeful and showed a country on the path to recovery and rebirth - not a short path but definitely on that path)

The line in HW that my GM at the time said was the one that really turned him off when he read HW was that there was only going to be, at best, food for one quarter of the remaining population - meaning that the US, which had already lost half of its population was now going to lose 75% of the remainder - and thus be reduced to 12% or less of the pre-war population - we talked about it and our group agreed that it was completely at odds with the idea of a war that had a limited nuclear exchange - let alone the fact that having that many of the remaining people die in such a short time would have basically lead to a spread of disease that would have most likely wiped out the remaining 12% of the population that could be fed - that is if they were even still alive after the desperate fights there would have been over any remaining food at all -

even more so with the remaining military units basically destroyed in most of the country and thus leaving people unable to even defend what did grow and get harvested when they got overrun by starving thousands or tens of thousands

We read it and agreed that what Loren painted wasnt a Howling Wilderness for the future of the US, instead what he painted was an empty wilderness devoid of people that used to be the US

Thats why we didnt even play Satellite Down when he bought it - the idea of a US military so emasculated that the best they could do to get a satellite back that was crucial for national survival was a single small squad of soldiers and a single decrepit boat - frankly even if they did get it back if thats all thats left there isnt anything MilGov or CivGov would be able to do to take advantage of the data

[Olefin]

thus if I do revisit any of the modules it would be by going back further along the timeline and showing how the Last Submarine trilogy would have done to change the HW timeline - or make changes that would actually give the US some hope by using some of the Challenge magazine articles that came out after HW and Kidnapped - I see HW as being the situation as of April 2001 - I have never seen it as actually telling the story all the way thru to the end of the year - and Med Cruise and Boomer and Satellite Down definitely would have changed how things went after those missions as to the rest of 2001

[ArmySGT.]

Per canon the military formations are growing their own food by 1999 in the US and overseas - so pretty obviously they got what they needed to grow food the old fashioned way - they took it by force! Or they gathered up the local farmers and had them grow it for them in exchange for protection

In other words the cantonments are the feudal system all over again with the local lord protecting the farmers who in turn feed the lord and his troops.

That sets the stage for mass desertions right there. When the General declares himself King and the Colonels are now Dukes, the soldiers will rightfully and legally rebel. Those are not legal orders. What you are suggesting is called Extortion.

I promise you, if I were in that situation and the General declared we would be extorting food from civilians I would apprehend him, his staff, and anyone that obey such an unlawful order. Given the exigencies of the system, they would likely found guilty by Trial, then hung from the neck until dead.

Even the FEMA "powers" by Presidential Executive Order (President J.F. Kennedy) are on very weak legal ground with more than enough justification for Citizens to ignore them and arrest anyone that invokes or obeys them.

The chain of command is failing and falling apart in those units with offiers and senior non commissioned officers torn between MilGov and ivilian Gov.

Units loyal to the United States Constitution and units "Going Feudal" aka marauder firing upon one another... another reason desertion is 80-90%.

So you cant say - well there is no way they would be growing their own food so I agree with canon desertion rates because they would be starving - when canon says they have been growing their own food for two years

That is inconsistent with the famine too. If no one is growing food, then how is it that units in Cantonments are able? Without tools, seed stock, the means to preserve a harvest, or the knowledge to do any of that. These units are succeeding. That in and of itself is a logical inconsistency.

[ArmySGT.]

The line in HW that my GM at the time said was the one that really turned him off when he read HW was that there was only going to be, at best, food for one quarter of the remaining population - meaning that the US, which had already lost half of its population was now going to lose 75% of the remainder - and thus be reduced to 12% or less of the pre-war population - we talked about it and our group agreed that it was completely at odds with the idea of a war that had a limited nuclear exchange - let alone the fact that having that many of the remaining people die in such a short time would have basically lead to a spread of disease that would have most likely wiped out the remaining 12% of the population that could be fed - that is if they were even still alive after the desperate fights there would have been over any remaining food at all - f

As Nationalistic ( even Jingoistic, admitted to a degree) I am still inclined to agree with canon.

Those nuclear weapons didn't just hit military bases and few downtown shopping districts.

Those nuclear weapons destroyed infrastructure. Most specifically hydroelectric power infrastructure that the U.S. would find very difficult to repair if nothing else was destroyed.

Bonneville dam and Boulder dam are destroyed. There is little pockets of power west of the Rocky Mountains. This affects even Western Canada and Northern Mexico.

The water backed up in Lake Mead (and further upstream Lake Powell) is desperately needed to irrigate crops in Arizona and California.

Without that power even deep rock water wells are untouchable.

The nuclear power, LP power, and coal power plants are not enough except very regionally.

On the east coast, that means the Tennessee Valley District and more.

I don't think, personally, that Loren was really off much at all.

[Raellus]

Guys, please be careful regarding the canon debate. It's historically been pretty toxic here.

It's really cool that Marc Miller has dubbed Olefin's East African Sourcebook canon. Is Mr. Miller sole arbiter of what is and what isn't canon? I don't know. Does his nod make Olefin a co-arbiter of canon? Should we take it on authority, second hand, that HW is no longer canon? This is a slippery slope.

Let's all keep in mind that T2K is whatever the GM running the campaign wants it to be. If a GM likes the America described in HW, cool, let him use it. If a GM hates it, cool, let the GM build a different setting more suited to his sensibilities. Different strokes and all that.

Secondly, there seems to be a bit of a double standard at play here. If it's OK for members to critique HW, it should be OK for members to critique fellow members' works as well. Constructive criticism is not off-limits. According to forum guidelines, criticism is OK as long as its asked for, constructive, and doesn't devolve into personal attacks.

Lastly, if we want to debate the merits (or lack thereof) of HW, there's a whole thread already devoted to that.

[Olefin]

Guys, please be careful regarding the canon debate. It's historically been pretty toxic here.

It's really cool that Marc Miller has dubbed Olefin's East African Sourcebook canon. Is Mr. Miller sole arbiter of what is and what isn't canon? I don't know. Does his nod make Olefin a co-arbiter of canon? Should we take it on authority, second hand, that HW is no longer canon? This is a slippery slope.

Let's all keep in mind that T2K is whatever the GM running the campaign wants it to be. If a GM likes the America described in HW, cool, let him use it. If a GM hates it, cool, let the GM build a different setting more suited to his sensibilities. Different strokes and all that.

Secondly, there seems to be a bit of a double standard at play here. If it's OK for members to critique HW, it should be OK for members to critique fellow members' works as well. Constructive criticism is not off-limits. According to forum guidelines, criticism is OK as long as its asked for, constructive, and doesn't devolve into personal attacks.

Lastly, if we want to debate the merits (or lack thereof) of HW, there's a whole thread already devoted to that.

Completely agree with you Raellus - and if anything was just trying to show how hard it is to write new material and keep the majority of people happy when there are so many splits in the fan base as to canon versus non-canon especially when it comes to HW and the drought.

And for the record Marc is the sole arbiter of what is canon and what is not - I have a few suggestions for ideas and have run them by him for future work and he will be the final decision on them not me - he owns the canon (as he owns the rights to the game) and has already told me what ideas he prefers over others - in the end no matter what I write (or others) it wont get published unless he is ok with it - not as official canon for damn sure

And there is a big difference between my personal preference and history of canon - i.e. notice what I was referring to was my GM's view of HW and how our group discussed it and did not use it as such - versus the canon of the module as a whole within the Twilight 2000 world


Keep in mind that the release of the module's themselves by the various authors changed the canon and the history as we knew it from the original boxed set - the original V1 boxed set did not have the US in any way suffering an uber drought - that came about over the course of several module releases - thus the original canon was changed by the authors with each new release

Omega, the drought, Last Submarine (and the cheap fusion reactors the scientists brought with them), New America, the idea of a change in the weather - all of them came after the original release of the game

thus with the start of new canon releases again the canon of the Twilight 2000 world is again being changed in some way just as it was during the original releases, opening the same potential can of worms as before - and thus anyone who does any new releases needs to be as mindful of possible of the old canon when they release their material - which is one reason I am going thru everything I can get my hands on to make sure I didnt miss anything

and as Raellus pointed out - completely and totally correctly - there is no compulsion to have to have your game conform completely to canon - if you dont like the changes, whatever they may be (and there may very likely be none beyond just exploring new areas mentioned but not detailed in the game) then ignore them with my blessing

example from what I just released - if you want the 2nd Armored to come home or go to Iran in your game instead of go to Kenya please feel completely welcome to do that - if you rather use Raellus's version of the order of battle for the US in Kenya than mine please do so if it would be what your players enjoy

[Raellus]

Keep in mind that the release of the module's themselves by the various authors changed the canon and the history as we knew it from the original boxed set - the original V1 boxed set did not have the US in any way suffering an uber drought - that came about over the course of several module releases - thus the original canon was changed by the authors with each new release

The chronology established in the box set ends in July of 2000. Chronologically, subsequent modules took place after EfK. It's not so much a matter of changing canon as it was adding to it, and evolving it.

And, of course, player action could have a direct impact on the game world. A good GM would make adjustments to the game world based on what players accomplished, or didn't, during the modules.

I'm by no means an expert on T2K adventure modules. I am intimately familiar with the original Poland adventures but only have a passing familiarity with the CONUS modules. Please correct me if I am wrong, but, to my knowledge, none of the published modules say, "ignore such and such- it didn't happen that way; it happened this way instead."

I think you are proposing a fundamental change to canon, by writing out the drought from HW. This alters canon, instead of adding to or evolving it.

If Marc Miller were to come out publicly (like here, for starters) and say, "ignore HW" or, "the drought wasn't as bad as initially described" or something to that effect, I think it would be easier for some members to swallow. If that were the case, I think an official, amended version of HW, would be the logical jumping-off point for post-2001 canonical material.

[WallShadow]

Once the book(s) are in one's hot little hands, they become the raw material for the GM to mold into his/her T2K universe. Maybe the HW drought was as bad as stated. Maybe the forecast didn't take into account the enormous drop-off of petroleum combustion, or the fact that the ozone layer healed faster than thought possible. Maybe friendly aliens helped scrub the particulate matter from large volumes of the atmosphere.
I tend to agree with the "twist the knife" feeling of Howling Wilderness, and would cherry-pick parts that I felt kept the storyline going and ameliorate or handwave or ignore the nastier parts as needed. By 2001, I'd be looking for more signs of organization and order, threatened by forces of conquest or greed.

[Jason Weiser]

Rae,
I think such discussions are yes, best done in a circumspect manner due to the passions involved, however...I think an honest discussion on why folks do or do not like HW is appropos, and if Marc is willing, an appeal to him to reevaluate it?

[Olefin]

The chronology established in the box set ends in July of 2000. Chronologically, subsequent modules took place after EfK. It's not so much a matter of changing canon as it was adding to it, and evolving it.

And, of course, player action could have a direct impact on the game world. A good GM would make adjustments to the game world based on what players accomplished, or didn't, during the modules.

I'm by no means an expert on T2K adventure modules. I am intimately familiar with the original Poland adventures but only have a passing familiarity with the CONUS modules. Please correct me if I am wrong, but, to my knowledge, none of the published modules say, "ignore such and such- it didn't happen that way; it happened this way instead."

I think you are proposing a fundamental change to canon, by writing out the drought from HW. This alters canon, instead of adding to or evolving it.

If Marc Miller were to come out publicly (like here, for starters) and say, "ignore HW" or, "the drought wasn't as bad as initially described" or something to that effect, I think it would be easier for some members to swallow. If that were the case, I think an official, amended version of HW, would be the logical jumping-off point for post-2001 canonical material.

Actually the NA modules have several contradictions in them - and the biggest is HW compared to earlier releases - in several places it directly contradicts canon from Allegheny Uprising and the Ozarks module as well as Red Star Lone Star - that alone shows that it wasnt coordinated with the rest of the canon releases - when I get home tonight I will put together a list of the contradictions.

Also the events of the Last Submarine Trilogy - which end with the implication that the sub gets home with the scientists aboard that know how to make cheap fusion reactors and thus be able to get power going again in the US - arent even covered in the module. Or recovering the Soviet weather satellite in Satellite Down.

Its either an accurate description of the US all the way to the end of 2001- which is basically says it is - or its a snapshot in time and thus shows May 1, 2001 and after that new releases can possibly show a different path

or what Loren was saying was that the sub never got home and the Soviets got the satellite and the US timeline for the rest of the year shows that by not mentioning them in any way

And no I didnt say to ignore the drought or write it out or say it didnt exist - as I said before thats what my GM SAID when we did our campaign back when we played the original games - keep in mind my GM also had the Submarine launching three TLAM-N's and taking out Ploesti - made for a great game but no one is saying lets make that canon

What I am saying and have said before is that the drought as portrayed would have not only stopped any recovery but it would have killed the country for sure and most likely almost completely depopulated it as well. Given that kind of drought and the canon die off of 75% plus (and most likely more like 85% when you throw in fighting over the food that was left) of the remaining population and then add in disease from 70 million plus dead bodies rotting everywhere (because starving people arent going to bury them) you would be lucky if 5% or so of the pre-war US population is left by years end.

But according to 2300 canon MilGov and CivGov survive that and unite to defeat New America? Sorry but in the face of that kind of disaster the US would be finished for a century or more.

Given that level of drought you wouldnt have to worry about Mexican domination of the Southwest, southern CA and Texas either - those areas would basically be lucky to have 15,000 people left alive after the Colorado and Rio Grande and the other rivers went dry in AZ, NM, TX and CA. The Apache might have survived it but I doubt anyone else would.

And if anything the winter would result in more snow not less - you have huge amounts of particulate matter from burning cities and nuclear detonations and campfires causing forest fires thrust into the atmosphere in 1997-2000 - if anything a realistic weather depiction would be more snow and a shorter growing season possibly affecting food production

so local droughts that are bad causing big population shifts - believable -

people having to leave southern CA because the system that brings water from the north is busted - yup totally believable -

snow staying on the ground till late May or June making the growing season shorter - yup again -

forest fires burning from way too many idiots with campfires and too many firefights in the woods (which is in the module) - yup completely believable

a continent wide uber drought that basically undermines the effects of every other NA module written to that point, has issues with the timelines of those modules, kills off so much of the US population that by 2300 they would be lucky to have 45 million people north of the Rio Grande (and I am being very liberal in my estimates) and that would put most of the US back to pre-industrial levels of technologies (and by that I mean back to the 1700's) when people have to kill off every draft animal there was to feed starving people so they are trying to plow by hand in 2002?

and where not one mention is made of using irrigation methods that would have worked to plant and water crops to feed people that have been around since Sumeria (4000 BC)?

sorry thats not believable - and if there are new works on the game some of those issues should be addressed in a way that honors the previous canon but also - as you said Raellus- evolves it as the previous authors did with their releases

[Raellus]

Actually the NA modules have several contradictions in them - and the biggest is HW compared to earlier releases - in several places it directly contradicts canon from Allegheny Uprising and the Ozarks module as well as Red Star Lone Star - that alone shows that it wasnt coordinated with the rest of the canon releases - when I get home tonight I will put together a list of the contradictions.

That would be very helpful for those of us who not very familiar with the CONUS modules. It would also be a great starting point for a HW revamp.

sorry thats not believable - and if there are new works on the game some of those issues should be addressed in a way that honors the previous canon but also - as you said Raellus- evolves it as the previous authors did with their releases

Yes, we've been over this ad nauseam. There's a whole thread devoted to it. Again, I don't disagree with a lot of your criticisms of HW. I too think it goes a little too far in places. But, at the moment, we're just talking about opinions, educated though they may be. Like it or not, right now, and for the foreseeable future, Howling Wilderness is canon.

We need Marc Miller to come out and officially RETCON, or authorize someone else to do so, Howling Wilderness. Have you considered attempting this for your next project, Olefin? You are one of its most vocal critics and some of your work has recently been canonized. You strike me as being the perfect individual, other than Mr. Miller himself, to redesign HW.

Until such time as Marc Miller canonizes a module or sourcebook that RETCONs the parts of HW that you don't like- and you are not alone, I know- then this is all moot, isn't it?

[Olefin]

actually I was going to move some of what I said to that other thread

Raellus - I forgot where is the thread that was discussing HW specifically - you are right that that belongs there

FYI one of the things I am talking about as to contradiction

HW Page 44 -MilGov was unable to mount an offensive in 1999 in Texas

Red Star Lone Star - page 42 - A US counteroffensive in 1999 failed

US Army Vehicle Guide - 95th Infantry Division participated in the 5th Army's drive to clear Texas of marauders and paramilitary bands. Following the defeat of the 49th Armored Division by Soviet Division Cuba the 95th fought rearguard actions to cover the withdrawal of 90th Corps into Oklahoma.

49th Armored Division spearheaded the same drive and suffered heavy vehicle losses when counterattacked by Soviet Division Cuba. The School Brigade was attached to the 49th for the offensive.

Thus you have both the US Army Vehicle Guide and Red Star Lone Star stating that the US Army clearly conducted an offensive into Texas in 1999 - and HW contradicts it by saying there was no offensive.

Second

Airlords of the Ozarks - the adventure doesnt even start until the end of February/early March of 2001 - you have to allow time to get in there, do the adventure, find out what is going on and then report back to MilGov - but according to HW MilGov is already attacking into the Ozarks in March and taking massive casualties - to the point that the 85th is merged with the 197th by March - so the timelines dont agree - according to HW by April 2001 they are mopping up NA in Arkansas and Missouri after a long fight - but according to Ozarks that fight couldnt even have begun yet until late March to early April at the earliest

Allegheny Uprising - the govt in Harrisburg is still intact but has no influence on the western part of the states - and the farmland in the center of the state is said to be fertile - also the adventure itself can be set anytime after Dec 2000 - but it specifically says you can have characters play Ozarks first - which means that the earliest you could get those characters there given the distance would be mid- April to mid May of 2001 - according to HW that area was already seeing the effects of the drought - but there is no mention of that in Allegheny Uprising - just a short food situation around Pittsburgh - also the whole reason Caldwell wants to recover the cache's is to regain CivGov control over all of Maryland and Western PA - yet in HW by that time frame he is already in the process of starting the evacuation

entry from Uprising says that it could start as late as the summer of 2001 - by which time Caldwell according to HW is already evacuating the area

Depending on the background of the ongoing campaign, some referees may prefer to begin the scenario with the player characters somewhere along the Mississippi or Ohio Rivers. An
adventure group which has recently completed the module Airlords of the Ozarks may begin in Memphis, Tennessee, which is currently held by the 197th Infantry Brigade (Mechanized),
and make their way by barge or river tug up the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers to Pittsburgh. In the summer of 2001, this would be a long and difficult journey, made dangerous by the marauder
and pirate bands which infest the river valley regions and prey on inland waterway commerce. The trek could easily be spun out into a long campaign in its own right.

HW PA - no mention at all of any central government in PA or of any attempts to recover any of the other caches mentioned in Allegheny Uprising - and the five Bradley's recovered in the cache by the 228th are not mentioned at all in that units description - and those fully operational Bradleys would be very powerful vehicles indeed in 2001

Soviet Vehicle Guide - 41st and 14th Soviet Motor Rifle Divisions have changed sides and are now friendly to NATO and are fighting on MilGov's side

HW - no mention at all of either unit in Alaska or of what happened to those units - and the 41st had nearly 4000 men and 4 tanks - so what happened to the 41st?

Ok so as promised there is part of what I meant by contradictions in HW to earlier canon - and as Baretta used to say "thats the name of that tune" - any other posts about HW I will put up on the other thread Raellus once you send me the link - and as for new canon releases I am working on several things now and will work with Marc to see what is ok with and what isnt

[Olefin]

FYI was looking at some of the nuclear attacks in the game - GDW must have not had all their research up to date - the nuclear attack at Sugar Creek, MO at the refinery makes no sense - it closed in 1982, long before they wrote the game

[The Dark]

FYI was looking at some of the nuclear attacks in the game - GDW must have not had all their research up to date - the nuclear attack at Sugar Creek, MO at the refinery makes no sense - it closed in 1982, long before they wrote the game

There was a bulk storage unit still in use with 1,249,867 barrels capacity, and the refinery was progressively demolished over the course of the 1980s, with some structures (other than the tanks) surviving into 1989.

[Adm.Lee]

FYI was looking at some of the nuclear attacks in the game - GDW must have not had all their research up to date - the nuclear attack at Sugar Creek, MO at the refinery makes no sense - it closed in 1982, long before they wrote the game

Well who says the Soviets' intelligence was always perfect? :D

[Olefin]

There was a bulk storage unit still in use with 1,249,867 barrels capacity, and the refinery was progressively demolished over the course of the 1980s, with some structures (other than the tanks) surviving into 1989.

HW was written in 1988 - have a feeling Loren was using an old encyclopedia when he put the list together - i.e. you leave Robinson intact but nuke some storage tanks and a demolished refinery with a .5Mt nuke?

Thats one reason also to argue for a rewrite of HW and other modules to bring things up to date - it allows corrections to some details and also to add some new stuff as well that would have changed

Prime example would be Reset - great plot idea in 1985 - looking back now and remembering what we had for computers and other devices by 1997 its definitely an anachronism - or for that matter the fact the the Soviets didnt hit Silicon Valley at all or other centers of computer development - because they were in their infancy when the game was written

in "real life" a 1997 target list would have taken places like Apple and Microsoft for sure as an example of how you could update HW

And I know a lot of gamers who after years of suffering at the hands of Bill Gates would probably love to read how he got nuked big time :)

And Admiral Lee - that is an interesting point you make as well - but Russian intelligence officers wouldnt have missed something as obvious as a demolished refinery -

[Draq]

It's hard to deny that the game needs some polishing, and refinement. As monumental a task as it would be, this fine group of people is more than capable of coming up with a 'v1.2' if you will. Collect all the data from the books considered 'least problematic', tidy them up, then take the inconsistent and controversial material, and change it around to make it fit while trying to keep from getting too far out of whack, then go back and double check the 'stable' material, all while using common sense and retrospect to keep true to the game we all know and love. 'reset' is always been a bit of a hangup for me, given what I know about how computers work, especially in the 90's. But everything else about that mission/story arc I absolutely love.

[Cdnwolf]

It's hard to deny that the game needs some polishing, and refinement. As monumental a task as it would be, this fine group of people is more than capable of coming up with a 'v1.2' if you will. Collect all the data from the books considered 'least problematic', tidy them up, then take the inconsistent and controversial material, and change it around to make it fit while trying to keep from getting too far out of whack, then go back and double check the 'stable' material, all while using common sense and retrospect to keep true to the game we all know and love. 'reset' is always been a bit of a hangup for me, given what I know about how computers work, especially in the 90's. But everything else about that mission/story arc I absolutely love.


That's what I have been saying for years. We are now the experts on the game. Why not tweek it ourselves and make an unofficial re-write. Majority rules by vote on controversial parts of the new history.

[Rainbow Six]

That's what I have been saying for years. We are now the experts on the game. Why not tweek it ourselves and make an unofficial re-write. Majority rules by vote on controversial parts of the new history.
There's no need to get involved in voting, which is unlikely to do much other than cause divisions - if people want to write unofficial and alternative material there's absolutely nothing stopping them. I speak from experience. I didn't like the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom so I wrote my own. Granted, it took me over six years, but it's done (and is available for free here).

http://www.twilight2000files.com/article01.html

To me it's pretty simple - if people like the material others put forward they can use it, if they don't they can ignore it.

[mpipes]

I agree. I added whole new American Divisions (4th Armored (Light)), 2nd Cavalry, 11th Airborne, 17th Airborne, 12th Infantry, 15th Infantry....). Had a lot more available armor (hampered by fuel and maintenance problems). And other changes large and small. I tweaked the adventures, articles, and guides ad nauseum. If you want everything to track canon, more power to you. You want to tweak things so much that it bears no relation to canon, good for you. Everybody has there own way to approach this.

But as has been pointed out, there were a lot of inconsistencies in the modules. I liked the V2.2 timeline the best! And changed up the German history to match.

Someday, I will share my timeline, but I still a tweaking it!

[Olefin]

and thats the difference between me writing new canon modules and sourcebooks versus writing fan canon that isnt going to be official - when I released the East Africa Sourcebook officially as a GDW product it became canon - so I cant just ignore previous canon as I could with, for instance, the Olefin universe timeline that I did for quite a while (which included my GM changing the Last Submarine to have the sub use nukes on Ploesti as he did when we played the game back in the 80's)

I did create new formations - but most of them were ones that Frank had in his notes he posted here about what would have been in his Kenya module if he had released it - with my own touches like bringing the 2nd Armored to Africa (since after Omega there are zero canon mentions of that division it allowed me to stay in canon with that change - whereas if the canon had mentioned them in Iran or Virginia in April of 2001 then I wouldnt have been able to do that) and the full detailing of the Kenyan, Rwandan and LRA Orbats along with detailing the French units in Eastern Africa (many of which had already been mentioned in the RDF)

[Olefin]

FYI one way you could look at a rewrite of HW would be from the information we now have that show that the drought as depicted could not have happened - for one reason because of the effect of the La Nina that occurred from 1998-2001 which increased snowfall across the US - meaning that the cold winter without snowfall that HW and Kidnapped promulgated could not have occurred during those years due to the effects of the La Nina - the effects of the war, if anything would have added to the snow fall during those years due to increase of particulates

Also you would have had to change the Pacific Jet Stream in the Pacific itself to have affected the La Nina - and most of the nukes were in the US and Europe and China in the Northern Hemisphere - meaning that they would have had almost no effect on La Nina - meaning that most of the US west of the Mississippi would have had considerable snowfall and thus the winter wheat crop would have the snow cover it needed and the water run off needed for the spring planting

Could you still have the drought in the Southeast and the Mid-Atlantic areas - yes that is a possibility so HW in the those areas could have run its course as written - but not in the West and upper Midwest

so is there an argument for an updated canon that contains the effects of the drought to those areas and still makes for huge disruptions of the population leaving those areas - yes - and that kind of effect would still leave much of HW intact as to those areas while making the overall effect on the US much less - still a major disruption and still having an effect on the population - but not one that would basically result in the US dying for good as a country

and again Loren when he wrote the modules would not have had that information or the weather models we have today - so the question is not a case of possible rewrites due to the modules being wrong - its more a question of retconning them to make them more accurate for the years involved in the modules to bring a higher level of accuracy and story telling to what is now events that occurred in the past of "real life" whereas when they were written they were attempts at saying where the future was headed

or to look at it another way - look at what they did to retcon Star Trek when they did the alternate future - obviously they had to eliminate the anachronisms that would have occurred from just reshooting Star Trek with no changes - thus the updates to the computer systems, communicators, phasers, etc. - because in many ways we caught up with Star Trek

here any possible retcon if it occurred (not rewrite per se but retcon to bring real world events including weather effects, personalities, films, music, etc. into the game to make it more accurate) would be as improvements for both playability and increased reality

i.e. an example would be playing Krakow and having players mention that they had seen Schlinder's List and thus had some familiarity with the city - a movie that didnt come out till 1993 and whose story was almost completely unknown when the module was written in the 80's

or having a survivor in the US mention that seeing the aftermath of Washington DC getting nuked was nothing like they depicted in the nuking of Buenos Aires in Starship Troopers - which was released only a few weeks before the TDM in the timeline - or Independence Day - which was released the year before

[Draq]

Glorious.

[The Dark]

I'm on board with mpipes, that each person can adapt existing sources however they wish for their own campaign. Everything is tilting at windmills as far as I'm concerned, and the vitriol has rapidly gone from being pointless to being actively annoying.

[ArmySGT.]

FYI one way you could look at a rewrite of HW would be from the information we now have that show that the drought as depicted could not have happened - for one reason because of the effect of the La Nina that occurred from 1998-2001 which increased snowfall across the US - meaning that the cold winter without snowfall that HW and Kidnapped promulgated could not have occurred during those years due to the effects of the La Nina - the effects of the war, if anything would have added to the snow fall during those years due to increase of particulates

Completely irrelevant. The events or weather occurring in our reality have absolutely no bearing on the fictional T2K universe. Using this justification there in no war and the T2K timeline has been invalidated by the collapse of the Soviet Union on 9 November 1989.

The weather in T2K is not ours here now or in 98-01.

Also you would have had to change the Pacific Jet Stream in the Pacific itself to have affected the La Nina - and most of the nukes were in the US and Europe and China in the Northern Hemisphere - meaning that they would have had almost no effect on La Nina - meaning that most of the US west of the Mississippi would have had considerable snowfall and thus the winter wheat crop would have the snow cover it needed and the water run off needed for the spring planting

Could you still have the drought in the Southeast and the Mid-Atlantic areas - yes that is a possibility so HW in the those areas could have run its course as written - but not in the West and upper Midwest

No one is completely sure what the effect of nuclear might be. Though in the T2K timeline the exchange is in measured doses (tit for tat) that doesn't prelude a cumulative effect compounded by unstoppable forest fires rampaging across the U.S. national forests and the Soviet taiga.

That does serve to mean cooler northern temperatures and Arctic are is dry air. The currents along the U.S. west shores is cold southern flows until past San Fransisco. The hot loop passes up around Hawaii then loops baxk around Hawaii and turns south again.

I grew up in Oregon. Tourists drown going to paddle board in the surf off the Oregon coast due to hypothermia in the 45F waters in August. Locals wear wet suits to play in the surf.

so is there an argument for an updated canon that contains the effects of the drought to those areas and still makes for huge disruptions of the population leaving those areas - yes - and that kind of effect would still leave much of HW intact as to those areas while making the overall effect on the US much less - still a major disruption and still having an effect on the population - but not one that would basically result in the US dying for good as a country So? Let it die then? Anyone see the Romans complaining?

The U.S. is destroyed. Knocked down to a 3rd world minor power after a nuclear exchange and five years (ten years) of global war. Probably not even 50 states any longer or not a very cooperative Union at that either. There is two competing governments and probably many States accepting the legitimacy of either and not cooperating with either to boot.

There is no Law in the Universe that demands a fully restored U.S.A super power after the events of T2K.

and again Loren when he wrote the modules would not have had that information or the weather models we have today - so the question is not a case of possible rewrites due to the modules being wrong - its more a question of retconning them to make them more accurate for the years involved in the modules to bring a higher level of accuracy and story telling to what is now events that occurred in the past of "real life" whereas when they were written they were attempts at saying where the future was headed Again irrelevant. The events, i.e. the weather, of our reality have nothing to do with the fictional universe of T2K. Whether Loren had the information or not means nothing.

or to look at it another way - look at what they did to retcon Star Trek when they did the alternate future - obviously they had to eliminate the anachronisms that would have occurred from just reshooting Star Trek with no changes - thus the updates to the computer systems, communicators, phasers, etc. - because in many ways we caught up with Star Trek I am assuming the Star Trek films produed by J.J. Abrams? The Abramsverse is not an alternate future, it is an alternate universe as well. A timeline that came into existence when the Romulan vessels crossed over through a black hole.

If your speaking of Star Trek Enterprise.... That is probably the reason for the low fan acceptance and cancellation after five seasons. The modern displays and other systems where not "The Old Show" Star Trek.

here any possible retcon if it occurred (not rewrite per se but retcon to bring real world events including weather effects, personalities, films, music, etc. into the game to make it more accurate) would be as improvements for both playability and increased reality

i.e. an example would be playing Krakow and having players mention that they had seen Schlinder's List and thus had some familiarity with the city - a movie that didnt come out till 1993 and whose story was almost completely unknown when the module was written in the 80's

or having a survivor in the US mention that seeing the aftermath of Washington DC getting nuked was nothing like they depicted in the nuking of Buenos Aires in Starship Troopers - which was released only a few weeks before the TDM in the timeline - or Independence Day - which was released the year before

This is all some minutiae that anyone would find unlikely to happen in a regular role play session. Players are operating at village level politics, and if you have them operating at the macro scale; then those become npcs, and your players roll up new characters.

[Olefin]

"So? Let it die then? Anyone see the Romans complaining?

The U.S. is destroyed. Knocked down to a 3rd world minor power after a nuclear exchange and five years (ten years) of global war. Probably not even 50 states any longer or not a very cooperative Union at that either. There is two competing governments and probably many States accepting the legitimacy of either and not cooperating with either to boot.

There is no Law in the Universe that demands a fully restored U.S.A super power after the events of T2K. "

Actually there is such a law - its called 2300AD that states the US rose again as a major power both on Earth and in space.

And the last I heard 2300AD is supposed to be the future of the Twilight 2000 canon.

Thus in this particular universe that is the law that states it.

And Loren's HW has the US so devastated that the canon of 2300AD cannot come to pass.

As I pointed out to Marc either 2300AD is right or HW is right - you cant have both - not with the loss of that much of the US population and the US Army falling apart basically outside of Colorado and Sacramento.

[The Dark]

America in 2300 is a significant power, but not a superpower. 2300AD notes that France was "the only global power" by the time of the Saudi War (2010-2013), and was the global superpower from 2060 to 2150. America remained divided until 2045, and was unwilling to fight Mexico in 2103 when California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Baja started the Mexican Civil War, despite wanting to reclaim their original borders. America's noted as being late to return to space ("American-Australian Cooperation"), and it's noted that its domination of the North American continent is "diminished" by the rising power of Canada and Mexico. None of that sounds like America being a superpower in 2300, but rather a strong second-tier player, such as the UK or France in the 1980s - someone you don't particularly want to go out of your way to piss off, but also not an 800-pound gorilla in international relations. Even if one looks at extrasolar colonies, they have 8. France has 16, Germany has 7, Manchuria has 14, Australia and Britain both have 5, Canada and Australia each have 4, even Texas has 3.

[Olefin]

The US is definitely a major power in 2300AD - not a superpower but still a major one. And one thing I definitely dont agree with is them letting Mexico keep a big piece of Arizona and New Mexico and California - for one big reason that the US controls the source of water for the areas they hold in all three states - would have been very easy to drive out Mexico - just turn off the taps.

So that part of the canon I dont see as realistic - Texas going independent - yes that I could agree with even without a Mexican invasion.

However the US being anything like that with what is described in HW - that's not going to happen.

[Olefin]

And have the start of something new I am already several pages into - little taste of the beginning

“Looking back at things, it’s hard to believe with how hopeless things were in April of 2001 that just a few months later the situation could turn around so dramatically. Starvation, disease, Mexican troops or marauders running half the state, the Army falling apart – a litany of disasters on and on. And out of nowhere the three M’s came to save us – a Millionaire, a Miracle and a Movie Star. Sounds like a bad movie that Hollywood used to write before the Soviets nuked LA but this time it was all for real.”

[ArmySGT.]

America in 2300 is a significant power, but not a superpower. 2300AD notes that France was "the only global power" by the time of the Saudi War (2010-2013), and was the global superpower from 2060 to 2150. America remained divided until 2045, and was unwilling to fight Mexico in 2103 when California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Baja started the Mexican Civil War, despite wanting to reclaim their original borders. America's noted as being late to return to space ("American-Australian Cooperation"), and it's noted that its domination of the North American continent is "diminished" by the rising power of Canada and Mexico. None of that sounds like America being a superpower in 2300, but rather a strong second-tier player, such as the UK or France in the 1980s - someone you don't particularly want to go out of your way to piss off, but also not an 800-pound gorilla in international relations. Even if one looks at extrasolar colonies, they have 8. France has 16, Germany has 7, Manchuria has 14, Australia and Britain both have 5, Canada and Australia each have 4, even Texas has 3.

Ding, Ding, Ding. Winner, Winner! Chicken Dinner!

Canon as established by the OWNERS of the CANON material.

Thank you, The Dark.

[cawest]

And have the start of something new I am already several pages into - little taste of the beginning

“Looking back at things, it’s hard to believe with how hopeless things were in April of 2001 that just a few months later the situation could turn around so dramatically. Starvation, disease, Mexican troops or marauders running half the state, the Army falling apart – a litany of disasters on and on. And out of nowhere the three M’s came to save us – a Millionaire, a Miracle and a Movie Star. Sounds like a bad movie that Hollywood used to write before the Soviets nuked LA but this time it was all for real.”


Oh i can not wait for more!!!!!

[Olefin]

Ding, Ding, Ding. Winner, Winner! Chicken Dinner!

Canon as established by the OWNERS of the CANON material.

Thank you, The Dark.

Yes which is why I am saying HW doesnt agree with that canon - because it so completely kills the US off that there is no way they even get that big in 300 years so as to have extrasolar colonies - not when you are lucky if 5% of the population is still alive by the end of 2001

thus the start of possibly addressing some of those discrepancies in new CANON material to expand on the old CANON (Marc does OWN the CANON after all) is so exciting - and that is what I am working on

[Olefin]

America in 2300 is a significant power, but not a superpower. 2300AD notes that France was "the only global power" by the time of the Saudi War (2010-2013), and was the global superpower from 2060 to 2150. America remained divided until 2045, and was unwilling to fight Mexico in 2103 when California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Baja started the Mexican Civil War, despite wanting to reclaim their original borders. America's noted as being late to return to space ("American-Australian Cooperation"), and it's noted that its domination of the North American continent is "diminished" by the rising power of Canada and Mexico. None of that sounds like America being a superpower in 2300, but rather a strong second-tier player, such as the UK or France in the 1980s - someone you don't particularly want to go out of your way to piss off, but also not an 800-pound gorilla in international relations. Even if one looks at extrasolar colonies, they have 8. France has 16, Germany has 7, Manchuria has 14, Australia and Britain both have 5, Canada and Australia each have 4, even Texas has 3.

FYI the 2045 date was changed to 2020 as to when CivGov and MilGov came back together - again multiple releases of the 2300AD game

and if you look at the Kafer War the American ships had a big part in it - and its stated that the US could take back the Southwest if it wanted to but not in the cards with the Kafer War going on

[The Dark]

FYI the 2045 date was changed to 2020 as to when CivGov and MilGov came back together - again multiple releases of the 2300AD game

and if you look at the Kafer War the American ships had a big part in it - and its stated that the US could take back the Southwest if it wanted to but not in the cards with the Kafer War going on

2045 is the number in the last boxed set. CivGov and MilGov "settled their differences" to fight New America in 2020 per the North America section, but the history explicitly states they formed a single nation in 2045. It's possible Mongoose retconned that further, but I haven't read that book closely enough to know.

The US is definitely a major power in 2300AD - not a superpower but still a major one. And one thing I definitely dont agree with is them letting Mexico keep a big piece of Arizona and New Mexico and California - for one big reason that the US controls the source of water for the areas they hold in all three states - would have been very easy to drive out Mexico - just turn off the taps.

So that part of the canon I dont see as realistic - Texas going independent - yes that I could agree with even without a Mexican invasion.So let me see if I have this right:
1. The T2K canon needs to be changed because allegedly America can't grow enough in 300 years (more time than has passed since the American Revolution) to match 2300AD canon.
2. The 2300AD canon needs to be changed because it isn't sufficiently pro-America.
Anything that "fixes" scenario #2 will make scenario #1 occur by requiring the post-Twilight War United States to be stronger so as to end up with a stronger America, so by insisting on the 2300AD canon being wrong, you end up creating the T2K canon issue that's claimed to be endemic to that setting alone. While there are minor issues with the canon, the claim that the devastation in the United States is excessive is caused by a change to 2300AD canon that would require rewriting that entire setting.

[Olefin]

Actually I never said to change the 2300AD canon because its not pro-American enough - as I said the US would never have let Mexico keep the American Southwest - that's common sense pure and simple - no way does the US let Mexico keep those areas - especially since the water that keeps Southern California and Phoenix alive comes from areas under American control. Cut that off and you can kiss those areas goodbye.

I dont support HW because basically there is no way that CivGov survives the drought let alone joins with MilGov to defeat New America as its written. The loss in population is so large from the drought and happens so quickly that the country would have never recovered in any conceivable fashion that actually has the US able to establish multiple space colonies and spread out as far as it has into the stars.

But I didnt start this thread to have an argument/discussion about HW and I doubt anything I say will convince the hardcore HW defenders - thanks everyone for the ideas for possibly module followups - hope you guys enjoy the new canon material I am working on.

[ArmySGT.]

Actually I never said to change the 2300AD canon because its not pro-American enough - as I said the US would never have let Mexico keep the American Southwest - that's common sense pure and simple - no way does the US let Mexico keep those areas - especially since the water that keeps Southern California and Phoenix alive comes from areas under American control. Cut that off and you can kiss those areas goodbye. Probably isn't worth the time and effort. It isn't lily white and pure Anglo Saxon protestants with good English or German names. It is near complete Roman Catholic Latinos from Mexico all the way to Argentina. Millions upon millions of them that flooded north to get out of their home countries. It would be another war all over again. Any attempt to cut off the water starts another war again. A war the U.S. would fight, but cannot really afford too.

Simple answers really are the best. The population of Latinos in Arizona, New Mexico, and California post T2K is greater than the population of the surrounding border states.

I dont support HW because basically there is no way that CivGov survives the drought let alone joins with MilGov to defeat New America as its written. The loss in population is so large from the drought and happens so quickly that the country would have never recovered in any conceivable fashion that actually has the US able to establish multiple space colonies and spread out as far as it has into the stars.

Can you establish this with a quote from the soure material? As was pointed out.... 2300 is three hundred years post T2K and longer than the USA was established prior. An evolution that went from 10 million with windmills and water mills to 300 million with nulear power.

But I didnt start this thread to have an argument/discussion about HW and I doubt anything I say will convince the hardcore HW defenders - thanks everyone for the ideas for possibly module followups - hope you guys enjoy the new canon material I am working on.

It is something your going to have to address if your think you material will sell. These are the people that would be purchasing the book. If you can't make a strong case for it now; how will you after sinking time and money into a product?

[Olefin]

Have sold 200 so far so I would say my writing and approach has definitely appealed to a lot of people.

[ArmySGT.]

Have sold 200 so far so I would say my writing and approach has definitely appealed to a lot of people.
This isn't about Kenya.
1. Little or no material written about the region.
2. No published modules for the region.
3. No later released like 2300 to contradict.

The subject is Howling Wilderness and your attempt to enlist (for free) persons to supply material for a rewrite to the V1 and V2 timelines of T2k and rewrite the timeline of 2300 AD.

Side stepping isn't getting it done. Support your argument with sources if you can.

The U.S. (in 2300 AD) is a second tier power, like modern day France or India. Not able to project power really outside their region and still not someone your going to fight or beat easily either.

The U.S. in 2300 AD is not a super power. So your going to have to convince the fan base why it is necessary to rewrite the history of two games.

I don't really think you have made a single convincing argument yet.

[Olefin]

US in 2300 AD is a major power - not a super power - and never said they were a super power. And they can project power outside their region or they wouldnt have colonies or a space fleet or been a crucial part of the Kafer War.

Also much of the fan base has a lot of objections to HW and the drought - which can be addressed very easily without having to make the US a super power again.

The fallacy of many of the canon defenders is that unless you screw the US totally up they win the war and become a super power again.

That is incorrect - and 2300AD already addresses that and no need to change it all. The US from its inception until the Spanish American War really didnt stick its nose into other people's business outside of the Western Hemisphere. It was a regional power - not a super power and not a world power. It really wasnt until WWII that it became a true super power.

The Twilight War brings that to culmination and the US afterward rejects interfering in the world as a whole - it goes back to being a regional power as it was for most of its existence. Thus it allows the French to take the reins and is content to sit back and concentrate on itself and its own area.

And taking back the Southwest from Mexico doesnt change that in any way - still a regional power, still a major power but only regional and not super power. And Mexico still has its expansion to the South and into the Caribbean as seen in the canon.

So a few minor changes to HW make for a much more playable NA game where its not Aftermath, its not Fallout, its not Gamma World with human beings rare and far between - instead its the US of the first few NA modules that actually showed a very damaged country trying to recover - which is why it gave up hundreds of armored vehicles, artillery pieces, planes, etc.. in Europe to bring those men home to do so.

As for wasting my time and money - I am not wasting any money writing and what I do I do because I love it and its a labor of love - and also because it gives people new material for a game that I love.

And FYI - Africa is in 2300AD - and if you look at what I did in Kenya I basically set up the creation of Azania with the expansion of South Africa and thus presaged the canon for that area. And also the French expansion into Africa as well mentioned in the RDF and in 2300AD

As for convincing argument - I am not here to convince those who wont be convinced - I tried that several years ago and let myself get talked out of contacting the owner of the canon to see if he was interested in new material because I had several members state that what I was doing was a fool's errand. And thus I abandoned the effort as I couldn't convince others about the validity of the idea until I decided last year on my own to do it - and now we have new material.

Thus I will write and if Marc publishes it those who enjoy it will buy it and support it and those who wont will not - and that's ok - as was said in literally every module published originally in the 80's and 90's the material published was up to the GM if he wanted to use it or change it - and they will do so again

Oh and I dont intend to enlist others in what I am doing - I am encouraging others to write new canon material of their own and get it published - frankly I would love to see a tidal wave of new canon material not only revitalize the game but expand it and make it as popular as it ever was before. If that happens I will be totally happy even if what they write and publish goes against any possible ideas I have.

If not and I turn out to be the only writer of new canon material then so be it - but based on what Raellus posted here I am betting I am wrong.

[Raellus]

Something that might be cool is a write-up of units that never were but that probably should have been. For example, the U.S. 13th Airborne Division. It was formed during WWII but never saw action. It was dissolved shortly thereafter.

It stands to reason that it was resurrected during WWIII. If so, where did it go? What did it do? What was it's TOE? How was it different than similar pre-war units... So-on-and-so-forth. Just in the United States Army, there are probably quite a few WWII-era divisions (especially infantry divisions) that, for whatever reasons, were not included in T2K canon. A sourcebook devoted to them would be neat. That said, it would have to be done really well in order not to unbalance canon.

[Olefin]

You can see one aspect of this in the East Africa Sourcebook

I.e. the attempt to reactivate the 106th Infantry Division - they only got the 422nd fully formed and trained in time but the rest of the division never got fully formed - basically just the HQ and the 422nd.

The 1st Battalion got sent to Kenya

The 422nd Infantry Regiment was formed in early 1997 as part of a plan to reactivate the 106th Infantry Division. However the nuclear attacks on the US ended those plans, with only the 422nd Regiment fully formed and trained.

[Raellus]

Nice. And I'd like to see more of that sort of thing. Why didn't the architects of the T2K U.S. military include the 29th ID of D-Day fame (the US Army Vehicle book includes reference to a 116th ACR but it doesn't clarify its pedigree) or the 79th ID, or the 83rd ID, or the 4th MarDiv? Perhaps it was easier to make up units out of whole cloth than to research the lineage of RL ones. What we can sometimes forget is that the creators of the original T2K material didn't have easy access to the digital mountains of information that we do today.

[Rainbow Six]

Missing formations isn't a uniquely American challenge when it comes to the original material. There's no mention anywhere in any published material of the West German Territorial Heer (12 Brigades and a larger number of separate Regiments) or the British Territorial Army (off the top of my head around 40 Infantry Battalions, two thirds of which would have formed the 2nd (UK) Infantry Division, the real life version of which bears no resemblance to its T2K equivalent).

[Raellus]

Missing formations isn't a uniquely American challenge when it comes to the original material. There's no mention anywhere in any published material of the West German Territorial Heer (12 Brigades and a larger number of separate Regiments) or the British Territorial Army (off the top of my head around 40 Infantry Battalions, two thirds of which would have formed the 2nd (UK) Infantry Division, the real life version of which bears no resemblance to its T2K equivalent).

Absolutely. I didn't feel qualified to mention this- my knowledge base has its limits- so I am pleased that you did.

[Olefin]

They did have some missing formations - i.e. the 4th, 5th and 6th Marines are mentioned - but very cavalierly exposed to Soviet naval forces during deployment - and their PacFlt wasnt anything as strong as their Atlantic one

[Raellus]

They did have some missing formations - i.e. the 4th, 5th and 6th Marines are mentioned - but very cavalierly exposed to Soviet naval forces during deployment - and their PacFlt wasnt anything as strong as their Atlantic one

Where are they mentioned?

[kato13]

Where are they mentioned?

US Army Guide. All Three were sent to Korea so very few details.

That might be the next ripest fruit for a source-book.

One of the 4th Battalions (2-24th) was 2 blocks from my high-school and I spent some time there so I felt connected to them. Kinda funny, it was also about a half mile from our Korea town. So maybe they picked up a few phrases before they shipped out.

[Olefin]

Raellus - do you have the US Army Guide - if not I can put up a quick description after I get home - and I agree with Kato - Korea definitely needs a sourcebook

[Raellus]

US Army Guide. All Three were sent to Korea so very few details.

OK, I found them. I was just skimming and 3rd MarDiv was the last division listed before it seemed to switch to regiments. I didn't notice that those regiments were still part of active divisions.

Korea is indeed fertile ground for a T2K Sourcebook.

[cawest]

Raellus - do you have the US Army Guide - if not I can put up a quick description after I get home - and I agree with Kato - Korea definitely needs a sourcebook

don't forget all of those island north of Soul, and the ones down south. those are each ripe to be little kingdoms all by themselves.

[Olefin]

OK, I found them. I was just skimming and 3rd MarDiv was the last division listed before it seemed to switch to regiments. I didn't notice that those regiments were still part of active divisions.

Korea is indeed fertile ground for a T2K Sourcebook.

It switched to regiments due to losses in the three divisions who seemed to take a hell of a lot of casualties getting over to Korea - which is something I find highly curious due to that fact that they arrived after the Soviet fleet should have been destroyed - and you would figure the Navy would do everything they could to protect the Marines - they belong to the Navy after all

One thing that doesnt make sense is how the Soviets kept their navy going in the Pacific as late as they did - i.e. look at Satellite Down - they still have a group of six destroyers going very late in the game - ones that somehow have the fuel to operate off the coast of Mexico (which I would think they got from Mexico and opens up another interesting idea on possible additional Soviet units in Mexico - i .e. did the Soviets not only help Mexico with Division Cuba but also with Pacific Fleet units sent there to operate out of Mexican ports) - and even the one very old DD that the Virginia sinks after its grounded for good at Haven

[cawest]

i was thinking this might fit better in you Africa section but not for sure.

I was reading a jane's post about the Argentine Army TAM's and the long over due to be updated to the TAM2C.

Argentina was not hit that bad in the war (i think) they built these tanks and have the production lines still. So you have countries that are losing tanks faster than they can be replaced.

Why not buy a unit full, the locals would replace the lost older TAMS with new built TAM2Cs.

now what it they were to trade them to the middle east or Africa? what would they want them.... oil and raw ores like uranium?

what do you all think?

[Rainbow Six]

Argentina was not hit that bad in the war (i think) they built these tanks and have the production lines still.

I think it's unlikely. Argentina fought a War with Brazil that ended up with both countries nuking each other. From the BYB V2.2, pg 241

Argentina itself withdrew [from the Falkland Islands] when war broke out with Brazil in 1998, and a smallscale exchange of low-yield nuclear weapons between the two countries completed their slide into chaos. Central government in both countries has broken down.

[Olefin]

it also comes down to if you want to adjust the timeline - V1 has both nations as intact after the war - V2.2 has them fighting a nuclear war - but neither nation ever developed nukes - so it may be a question of ignoring V2.2 and going with the V1 timeline - or making adjustments per se

And frankly that is another part of the timeline that makes no sense - if Argentina is going to war with anyone its Chile - they had major issues with Chile and came close to war several times in the last few decades - one reason Chile bought upgraded M109's from BAE when I was there was to offset improvements in the Argentine Army

[Rainbow Six]

it also comes down to if you want to adjust the timeline - V1 has both nations as intact after the war
Does it? Can you point me in the direction of where that's stated?