T2K Tank forces

[RN7]

NATO and Warsaw Pact Tank Fleet at start of Twilight War.

United States
In the early 1990's the US operated about 18,000 tanks including older tanks held in storage. Until the introduction of the M1 Abrams tank in 1980 all US tanks could trace their lineage to the Second World War era M26 Pershing and M46 Patton tanks. The M47 was an M46 with a new turret, and the M48 and M60 were evolutionary descendents of the M26. The M60 and later variants of the M48 remained competitive against most Soviet tanks until the end of the Cold War, while later variants of the M1 Abrams were superior to all Soviet tanks.

M1A3 (150) (* limited production/from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
M1A2 (627 (* deliveries ongoing)
M1A1 (5,017)
M1 (3,273) (* 1,000 converting to M1A2 standard)
M60-M120S (250) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
M60-2000 (250) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
M60A3 (5,151)
M60A1 (3,101) (* subtract 500 converted to M60-2000 and M60 M120S)
M48A5 (1,013)
M47 (639) (* held in storage)

Germany
West Germany had the second largest army in NATO after the United States in the Cold War. The reformed German Army was supplied with US M47 and M48 tanks in the 1950's, which were supplemented by the Leopard 1 tank from 1964. The Leopard 1 was the first German tank built since the end of the Second World War, and was a good solid tank for its time with later variants remaining competitive against Soviet tanks into the 1990's. The larger Leopard 2 tank entered service in 1979 and is one of the most powerful tanks in the world. Later variants of the Leopard 2 are superior to all Soviet tanks. Following German Reunification in 1996 the East German Army is absorbed into the new German Army. The East Germans used Soviet T-72 and T-55 tanks, with some tanks built in Czechoslovakia and Poland. The combined strength of the German tank fleet was over 8,000 tanks.

Leopard 3 (65) (* limited production/from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
Leopard 2-140 (10) (* limited production/from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
Leopard 2A5 (225) (* upgrade ongoing)
Leopard 2A4 (695)
Leopard 2A3 (300) (* upgraded to Leopard 2A4 standard)
Leopard 2A1 (780) (* upgraded to Leopard 2A4 standard)
Leopard 2 (380) (* upgraded to Leopard 2A4 standard)
Leopard 1A5 (1,258)
Leopard 1A3 (1,112)
M-48A2G (418)
M48A1 (240)
T-72M (583) (* East German)
T-54/T-55 (2,251) (* East German)

France
France had one of the largest armies in Europe but its tank fleet was considered weak for its relative size. French forces included many rapid deployment and light cavalry forces that were equipped with lighter armoured vehicles. The French governments policy to make weapons attractive for export effected the quality of French armour, and for a period French tanks were not as good as many other NATO countries. The main French tank was the AMX-30 which was an unremarkable design that offered little if any advantage over Soviet tanks. The AMX-30B2 was the later variant at the end of the Cold War. The AMX-40 listed in T2K is an upgraded AMX-30 and was in reality a single prototype intended for export. The new Leclerc tank was a powerful design with good firepower and armoured protection and brought French tank design in line with other NATO powers in the 1990's.

Leclerc (406) (* deliveries ongoing)
AMX-40 (50) (* limited production/from Paul Mulcahy's pages & RDF Sourcebook)
AMX-30 B2 (549)
AMX-30 (800)

Great Britain
Despite the small size of the British Army in comparison to other major European powers the British tank fleet was considered to be a powerful force. British tanks were all heavily armoured due to negative British experiences against German tanks in the Second World War. They were also uniquely equipped with rifled guns which have longer ranges than smoothbore guns of other tanks. The Centurion was one of the best tanks of the 1950's and 1960's, and the Chieftain was the most heavily armoured tank in the world from 1966 until the early 1980's. The Challenger 1 is basically an upgraded Chieftain Mk.5 with heavier armour. The Challenger 2 is a completely new tank that is even more heavily armoured than the Challenger 1 and is greatly superior to any Soviet tank. Over 500 older Centurion tanks were listed as being held in storage in 1990, but may include tanks converted to engineer vehicles and some training units.

Challenger 2 (386) (* deliveries ongoing)
Challenger 1 (450)
Chieftain (850) (* all variants)
Centurion (570) (* held in storage)
Vickers Mk.3 (40) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)

Other NATO Countries
Other NATO armies used mainly US and German tanks, although Greece and Spain also had French AMX-30's and Denmark had some British Centurions. Italy also used the Italian OF-40 and Ariete tanks. The OF-40 was an export tank similar to the Leopard 1 and was built in small numbers, while the Ariete is a new and fairly advanced tank that was built in small numbers in the 1990's.

Belgium
Leopard 1A5 (334)
Canada
Leopard 1A3 C1 (114)
Denmark
Leopard 1A5 (230)
Centurion (216)
Greece
Leopard 1A3 (109)
AMX-30 (154)
M48A5 (599)
M48A3 (212)
M48A2 (110)
M48A1 (299)
M47 (396)
Italy
Ariete (240) (* deliveries ongoing)
OF-40 (10) (* limited production)
Leopard 1A2 (920)
M60A1 (300)
M47 (313)
Netherlands
Leopard 2A5 (330)
Leopard 2A4 (115)
Leopard 1A4 (468)
Norway
Leopard 1A5 (80)
M48A5 (55)
Portugal
M48A5 (86)
M47 (60)
Spain
AMX-30 (299)
M48A5 (180)
M47 (375)
Turkey
Leopard 1A3 (397)
M48A5 (1,980)
M48A1/A2 (1,130)
M47 (523)

Soviet Union
The Soviet Union had the largest tank fleet in the world with nearly 60,000 units in the 1990's.

Soviet Union
T-95 (10) (* limited production)
T-94 (60) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
T-90 (107) (* deliveries ongoing)
T-80 (6,240) (* deliveries ongoing)
T-72A/B (10,000) (* deliveries ongoing)
T-64A/B (9,700)
T-62 (11,300)
T-54/55 (20,600)

Warsaw Pact
Warsaw Pact forces used Soviet T-72, T-62 and T-55 tanks. Czechoslovakia and Poland built the T-72 and the T-55 under licence and exported many of them. Romania also built versions of the T-55 under licence, and the Romanian TR-125 was a reversed engineered T-72. The Second World War vintage T-34 was also found in the inventories of Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania.

Bulgaria
T-72M (350)
T-62 (250)
T-54/T-55 (1,612)
T-34 (862)
Czechoslovakia
T-72M (900)
T-55 (1,927)
T-34 (373)
Hungary
T-72M (195)
T-54/T-55 (1,425)
T-34 (91)
Poland
T-72/PT-91 (116) (* deliveries ongoing)
T-72M (641)
T-54/T-55 (2,150)
Romania
T-72/TR-125 (3) (* limited production)
T-72M (30)
T-54/T-55 (757)
TR-85 (556) (* T-55 variant)
TR-580 (414) (* T-55 variant)
T-34 (1,060)

Neutral European Countries
Switzerland and Sweden built their own tanks in the Cold War. Switzerland built the Panzer 61 and 68, and Sweden built the S-103 which was more akin to a tank destroyer than a tank. In the 1980's Switzerland switched to the German Leopard 2 with most being built in Switzerland. After the Cold War Sweden also adopted the Leopard 2 but probably did not recieve them before 1996 in the T2K timeline. The others used a mixture of US, French, British and Soviet tanks. Yugoslavia licence built the Soviet T-55 and a modified version of the T-72 (M-80). Albania and Yugoslavia were still using Second World War era T-34 and Sherman tanks into the 1990's.

Albania
T-55 (50)
T-34 (140)
Austria
M60A3 (159)
Cyprus
AMX-30 B2 (40)
Finland
T-72M (70)
T-54/T-55 (100)
Sweden
S-103 (335)
Centurion (110)
Switzerland
Leopard 2A4 (180)
Pz-68 (190)
Pz-61 (150)
Centurion (150)
Yugoslavia
T-72/M-80 (300)
T-54/T-55 (850)
T-34 (400)
M-4 Sherman (300)

[cawest]

I think as the cold war turned hot and even after the Nuks started to fly. things would go back to like they were in 1938-1940. or for the US until mid -1942. any type of weapons bought, no matter what or how good.

Making tanks like the M-1 and the like is hard and to grow the number would take a new factory. But making like tanks (stingray and the like) would use lines that were not in use anyway. these numbers would be able to grow fast maybe up to 6 to 10 per month. will they be as good as the top of the line tanks like the M1? No!!! but if that is all you have the stingray is better than a 5ton gun truck.

to bet back on track. your missing some of the lighter combat tanks.

also do you have a line to the page you reference. i'm new here. thanks

[The Dark]

The American 3/73rd would probably have still been equipped with the M551 Sheridan at the start of the Twilight War, since they kept them until 1997 in our timeline. They should have been able to replace losses from the Sheridan VISMOD that were used to simulate Soviet tanks in training. I think James had them deployed to Kenya in his article on the M8.

also do you have a line to the page you reference. i'm new here. thanks Paul's website (http://www.pmulcahy.com/) has all sorts of equipment.

[Olefin]

I had the 2nd Battalion, 73rd Armored Regiment deployed with Sheridans (one company air dropped in the initial deployment) with the rest of their Sheridans lost in the convoy that was bringing them. They got both M8's and M48's as replacements due to the fact that there were shipments going to China and the Turks that were grabbed for the unit to replace the Sheridans.

i.e. "Twenty four M8 Buford light tanks, originally bound for China, and ten M48A5 tanks being sent to Turkey as replacements were reassigned to the battalion and arrived on the second convoy in May of 1998. "

[ArmySGT.]

The differences is in the Fire Control Systems (FCS) even among Warsaw Pact (WP) members. The Yugo M80-M84 has a wind speed indicator on the roof the helps the FCS compensate for crosswinds. The Kuwaitis had bought Yugo M84s.

Night vision driving gear, viewing equipment, laser rangefinders, and commanders sights all differentiate even among WP forces.

[Raellus]

RN7, have you seen Chico's Notes on Soviet Armor [in T2K]? It's quite good.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1iWKi-cwRMLcHBrdm5BWWlrN2M/view

Also, Austria used the SK-105 light tank/"tank hunter" (mounting a 105mm main gun) during the Cold War. AFAIK, it wasn't replaced until the Bundesheer adopted the Leopard II in the early 2000s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SK-105_K%C3%BCrassier

[RN7]

RN7, have you seen Chico's Notes on Soviet Armor [in T2K]? It's quite good.

Of course I have seen Chico's articles Raellus, but I have based my figures on data declared to the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty which has been compiled in IISS Military Balance. I don't know were Chico gets his figures from but some don't match mine. For example Chico states that the Soviets built 6,000 T-90's by 1996, but in reality Russia has built 3,200 since 1993. Chico of course could be referring to projective production figures of a Soviet Union that never collapses which is churning out tanks due to a new arms race with the west, and we might see this number of T-90's been built. But I just based my figures on statistics on what was available in 1991.

Also, Austria used the SK-105 light tank/"tank hunter" (mounting a 105mm main gun) during the Cold War. AFAIK, it wasn't replaced until the Bundesheer adopted the Leopard II in the early 2000s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SK-105_K%C3%BCrassier

I deliberately excluded light tanks such as the SK-105. They are not MBT's and if you include them you might as well include tank destroyers, armoured cavalry and reconnaissance vehicles with large calibre guns and cannons and ATGM's. Some IFV's could even be included. Way to hard and unrealistic to compile under tanks.

[Raellus]

Just askin', man.

[RN7]

Just askin', man.

Raellus you should know by now that I like to cover all the angles!!

[Tegyrius]

I deliberately excluded light tanks such as the SK-105. They are not MBT's and if you include them you might as well include tank destroyers, armoured cavalry and reconnaissance vehicles with large calibre guns and cannons and ATGM's. Some IFV's could even be included. Way to hard and unrealistic to compile under tanks.

Valid.

<tangent>

Having said that... for T2k player purposes, I like light tanks/recon vehicles/assault guns better than MBTs. Lower fuel requirements, armor sufficient to deal with small arms threats, and more plausibly within the capabilities of a PC team to maintain. An MBT crew really needs the backing of a larger formation or community that can help with maintenance and brewing fuel... otherwise they just own a really nice pillbox.

Yeah, land piracy will satisfy fuel requirements for a while, but sooner or later that's going to get the attention of one of those aforementioned large formations or communities and they'll deploy a hunter team to either seize or destroy the MBT. Better to stay below the radar as long as possible. If I were playing in a campaign centered on PC ownership of something more potent than a busted-ass truck, I'd take an SK-105 or AMX-10-RC or Scimitar/Scorpion or M8/LAV-75 (or Stryker MGS, for later eras) over an MBT.

Just my two kilos of reloadable brass...

</tangent>

- C.

[ArmySGT.]

Why was the thread edited to remove replies? Certainly isn't a flame war going on in here?

My two replies with links to ongoing funding of M1s the U.S. Army doesn't want in 2014 and more funding in 2016, with replies by OP.

[kato13]

Why was the thread edited to remove replies? Certainly isn't a flame war going on in here?

My two replies with links to ongoing funding of M1s the U.S. Army doesn't want in 2014 and more funding in 2016, with replies by OP.

When did you post them? I don't see any gaps in the database for the last 200 posts. (Except on clear spam post I removed) from General Pain's sub forum.

Might be some weird bug where the post id got decremented but that should have effected a bunch of threads. I is also possible (though I can't really imagine how) that somehow a database backup got restored rather than dumped.

I will keep an eye on things but I don't think anything was purposely removed.

[kato13]

Why was the thread edited to remove replies? Certainly isn't a flame war going on in here?

My two replies with links to ongoing funding of M1s the U.S. Army doesn't want in 2014 and more funding in 2016, with replies by OP.


Are the posts you are looking for here?

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=363
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=363&page=2

[ArmySGT.]

Are the posts you are looking for here?

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=363
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=363&page=2

Yep, that is them. My fault. The subject is pretty much the same. I was looking for them in the wrong thread.

[Brit]

[B]
M60-M120S (250) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
M60-2000 (250) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)


It could be the memory going but I am sure I have seen the same MBT, i.e. Abrams turret / Patton hull given both of the names / titles above.

For example the ever reliable Wikipedia suggest they are the same https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60-2000_Main_Battle_Tank

Ditto Global Security http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m60-2000.htm

Are the Twilight versions different? I suppose it could be one way of getting another MBT out there if you have a Abram with a damaged chassis and an M60 with a useless turret?

Could there be a typo on the number of T34-85s in 'Chico's Notes on Soviet Armor', i.e ",250 T-34-85"? Is it '250' 0r '?,250'

[RN7]

It could be the memory going but I am sure I have seen the same MBT, i.e. Abrams turret / Patton hull given both of the names / titles above.

For example the ever reliable Wikipedia suggest they are the same https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60-2000_Main_Battle_Tank

Ditto Global Security http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m60-2000.htm

Are the Twilight versions different? I suppose it could be one way of getting another MBT out there if you have a Abram with a damaged chassis and an M60 with a useless turret?

From Paul Mulcahy's pages:


This is I believe the M60-2000

In the late 1980s GDLS developed an upgrade package for the M-60, both for export and US M-60A1 and A3 tanks (at the time, whether or not the Army National Guard and US Marines would receive their M-1 Abrams tanks in a timely fashion was in doubt). This upgrade package included improvements to the armor, power pack, fire control system, and ammunition storage. Though as of yet this upgrade package has not been picked up by any M-60 users, most of which are buying newer-design tanks. Upgrades include fire control upgrades include a modified version of the M-1 Abrams’ gun stabilization system, ballistic computer upgrades, and upgrades to existing systems controlled by the ballistic computer. The engine is replaced by one of two versions of the AVDS-1790, developing 908, 1050, or 1200 horsepower; the transmission is also upgraded to match the new engine. The suspension is also upgraded, giving a smoother ride and better fire-on-the-move. New tracks are fitted. Armor protection is greatly improved using appliqué armor, and ERA lugs are standard. The turret has an enlarged bustle with blow-out panels similar to those on the M-1 Abrams, and offering the same protection in the case of a turret ammo explosion. Improved and rearranged ammunition storage allows for more ammunition to be carried. The cupola is replaced with a conventional commander’s station, with vision blocks and an M-2HB heavy machinegun that can be aimed and fired remotely. Israel devised an ERA kit for the M-60A3, and this was quickly picked up on for US Marine M-60A3s and some US Army M-60A3s that were still on active duty. Often these vehicles also have track skirts added. Many other countries operating the M-60A3 and M-60A1 also applied ERA to their M-60s. (The M-60A3 with ERA is the tank that the US Army Vehicle Guide and American Combat Vehicle Handbook refer to as the “M-60A4.”). The faces covered by a full kit include the HF, HS, TF, TS, and the forward part of the turret deck. There is a kit to extend the mount for the smoke grenade launchers that may be fitted when the TS ERA is applied.


This is the M60-M120S.

At first referred to by as the M-60-2000, GDLS now refers to this Abrams/M-60hybrid as the M-120S, with the “120” referring to the gun caliber and “S” referring to Survivability. The M-120S is an attempt by GDLS to quickly and less expensively produce a dramatic upgrade for the M-60 series. The M-120S (an unofficial, company designation), is still being marketed heavily by GDLS, and came within a hair’s-breadth of being adopted by Turkey (already the user of a large fleet of M-60A3’s), but as yet no sales have been made. Egypt has also shown some interest in the M-120S, as they too have a fleet of former-US M-60s. Though the M-60 chassis is obvious with a close look, the M-120S does have a great resemblance to an actual M-1A1 Abrams. The turret is essentially the same as that of the M-1A1, but with no DU armor inserts. The turret is mounted on the M-60 chassis with an adapter ring. As the M-1A1 turret is much heavier and extra armor is added to the M-120S, the suspension has been beefed up considerably to take the extra weight, and the tracks have been replaced with lighter, yet stronger ones. The standard torsion bars have been replaced with hydropneunmatic units to smooth the ride, as well as saving space within the hull. The sponsons have been enlarged to hold batteries and extra fuel. The powerpack has been replaced with an AVDS-1790-9 1200 hp diesel and a matching automatic transmission. The M-120S uses M-1A1-type final drives and M-1A1-type driver’s controls. Armor enhancements include side skirts and Chobham glacis armor, as well as general hull armor augmentation and lugs for ERA on the HS and TS. The M-120S has an external APU similar to that used on some versions of the Abrams, a digital command-and-control computer, thermal vision for the driver, a CITS (Commander’s Independent Thermal Sight), general improvements to the electrical system, and monitors for the vehicle equipment condition.


Could there be a typo on the number of T34-85s in 'Chico's Notes on Soviet Armor', i.e ",250 T-34-85"? Is it '250' 0r '?,250'

You would have to ask Chico.

[mpipes]

I played around with Mexico quite a bit to get a tank force big enough to actually roll up most of the US Southwest. Here are my Mexican Army military notes.

MEXICAN MILITARY BUILDUP NOTES

Mexico discovered and began earnest development of extensive deposits of oil and gas, titanium, gold, and silver in the late 1970s and early 1980s. By 1979, with the US economy suffering through oil shortages and other disruptions to energy and other needs, the Mexican government became increasingly concerned about its country’s ability to forestall a possible invasion should the US become desperately short of energy supplies. Mexico was also increasingly becoming a “rich” nation, but its reputation suffered on the world stage because of its lack of participation in international affairs.
As Mexico pondered its future in the world, it seemed obvious that one avenue was to expand participation in world affairs through peace keeping missions with the UN. First, Mexico amended its constitution to permit deployment of up to a battalion without a declaration of war to support UN missions. Second, Mexico embarked on a program to markedly expand its military forces. Finally, its diplomatic service and foreign minister became more vocal and assertive in promoting foreign business and trade with oil sales increasingly aimed at European and Pacific rim countries.
Mexico approached Israel to purchase Merkava Mk II, M50, and M51 tanks and Kifir fighters in 1980. However, the US moved in to block sales of the Kifir and pressured Israel to not sale the advanced Merkava tank to Mexico. The US also offered to sale retired USN frigates to Mexico and F-5E fighters. The US also deemed the sale of Israeli M50 and M51 tanks as sufficient to cover Mexico’s defense needs, but did offer to sale a quantity of M48A3s to Mexico. The Mexican government considered the offer patronizing and insulting, viewing the Americans as trying to dictate Mexico’s force structure and defense needs. It rejected the offer out of hand, although Mexico operated 18 F-5E contracted for in the 1970s.
In 1982, Mexico approached France and Germany, which were both very willing to sale weapons to the Mexicans and not worried about irritating the American government. From France, Mexico concluded a deal to purchase 54 Mirage F-1E multi-role fighters, 60 ex-French Jaguar A attack fighters, and 300 AMX-30S tanks as well as APCs and light armor. The deal called for re-manufacturing surplus AMX-30S tanks with French assistance into TAB-30s. Mexico also purchased AMX Mk F3 L30 155mm, AMX Mk F3 L22 155mm, and AMX VCA artillery support vehicles. Upgunned AMX-13s and ERC-90s were included as well. Mexico also negotiated to buy 28 Mirage 4000 fighters and 100 AMX-40 tanks along with a license to build AMX-40 tanks. It also had an option to buy 20 more Mirage 4000 fighters, 20 AMX-40 tanks, and 100 AMX-30 tanks, which Mexico exercised in 1986.
From Germany, Mexico purchased three MEKO 360 destroyer/frigates, seven MEKO 140 frigate/corvettes, and four MEKO 200 frigates. Mexico also bought 30 M-48A3s from German stocks as an interim measure till the TAB-30s entered service. The M48A3s entered service in 1982 (later returned to Germany after war broke out). Mexico also managed to buy a few Merkava II tanks for evaluation and followed through with buying obsolete M-4 Sherman variants from Israel.
After German reunification, as Germany initially sought to dispose of East Germany’s military equipment, Mexico entered negotiations to purchase additional arms. In 1992, a deal was struck with the Germans purchasing 3 Kolin-class frigates, 9 minesweepers, 58 MiG-21M Fishbed-Js along with 7 MiG-21UM trainers, as well as 400 BTR-70s APCs, and 12 Mil-24D attack helicopters. However, by the end of 1992, Germany re-evaluated its decision to essentially de-mobilize the bulk of the East German military. The reality of the Soviet’s behavior post-coup was rapidly dispelling belief in the end of the “Cold War,” and it became increasingly evident that the Cold War was only paused. Although the frigates, minesweepers, helicopters, and MiGs were delivered as planned, the BTR-70 sale was canceled. Instead, 300 BTR-60s and two additional Mil-24Ds were delivered. Mexico also managed to purchase 112 SO-122 self-propelled howitzer and 96 D-30 122mm and 104 L118 105mm towed howitzers. Mexico also purchased a number of MiG-23s (18 MiG-23BN, 9 MiG-23MFs, and 2 MiG-23UBs) from Germany. Germany also included a number of MiG-21F-13s still held in their reserve stocks. Over 400 air-to-air missiles were also included (AA-2s, AA-7s, AA-8s, and AA-11s). A number of ex-Cuban Air Force pilots and personnel were successfully recruited to aid the Mexican Air Force’s integration of the new equipment
Despite the outbreak of war in 1995, Mexico received its purchases on time from France and even managed to purchase additional fighters. However, one MEKO 140 and one MEKO 200 were never delivered by Germany, with both diverted to German needs. By 1995, Mexico was producing the AMX-40 at a rate of 52 tanks a year as well as APCs. Its military was considered well trained and formidable in its overall power and competence by Latin American governments. Although the US government was aware of the build-up, most US officials, and the military, continued to view the Mexican military with relative disdain. That did not last long as the Mexican army steam rolled onto the central plains and into California and Texas in 1998. By 1999, with French, Israeli, and Spanish trained officer and troops, the Mexican army was rightly regarded as the best trained military force in the Americas; better on average than the Russians and the National Guard units in that theater. Forcing them out was going to be a challenge.
By 1998 and the start of the war with America, Mexico had in service the following MBTs:
TAB-30 358
AMX-30 16
AMX-30S 22
AMX-40 303
M-48A3 27
Merkava II 12
M50 136
M51 322
TOTAL 1258
The Mexican Air Force in 1998 included the following combat aircraft:
Mirage F-1E 128
Mirage F-1S 14
MiG-21F-13 27
MiG-21M 58
MiG-21UM 7
MiG-23BN 21
MiG-23MF 8
MiG-23UB 3
Mirage 4000 60
Jaguar A 76
L-39Z 27
F-5E 28
TOTAL 438

The MiG-21Ms, MiG-23BNs/MFs and L-39Zs had been updated to use Magic II IRMs, which the Mexican’s possessed in considerable numbers. The Israelis also updated a number of MiG-21M to use the Python-4. The MiG-21F-13s continued to use AA-8 and AA-11 missiles, but they were for the most part retained for air defense in Mexico though the pilots primarily trained for the attack role (armed with a pair of rocket pods and two 1100-lb bombs) and used that training during the civil war, hitting rebel ground forces advancing on Mexico City. Mexican combat squadrons numbered between 12 to 20 aircraft.
Still, the Mexican Army in 1998 really comprised a motley assortment of both WWII era light armor and more modern armored vehicles ranging from upgunned 1950s AMX-13s to modern AMX-40 tanks. Despite this (and the logistics challenge that inevitably followed) Mexico proceeded to overrun much of the US southwest and great plains.
After the invasion, Mexico also captured over 200 intact M-60A1 and M-60A3 awaiting upgrade, and a further 27 M-60A4s, as well as over 250 M113s. These were placed into service along with 84 captured M-48A5s. By late 2000, maintaining all these varied tank types was challenging to say the least, and many were sidelined by maintenance and repair issues, not to mention lack of fuel.

Mexico has five army commands at the start of the war; First Army with three divisions, two mechanized brigades, one motorized brigade, one armored brigade, and two independent armored cavalry regiments, and one paratrooper battalion; Second Army with four divisions, an armored brigade, two mechanized brigade, two independent armored cavalry regiments, and two artillery brigades; Third Army with four divisions, one armored brigade, one motorized brigade, two infantry brigades, one paratrooper brigade, and one independent armored cavalry regiment; Fourth Army with three divisions, two armored brigades, a mechanized brigade, one paratrooper brigade, two independent airmobile regiments, two independent armored cavalry regiments, two artillery brigades, and a Marine regiment; and Fifth Reserve Army with seven divisions (understrength), one mechanized brigade, three independent armored cavalry regiments, and eight infantry brigades (full strength). There were another 17 independent regiments, an independent mechanized brigade, and a marine regiment under direct control of the Minister of Defense. Special Forces units included a Special Forces Corps (three brigades), a Rapid Intervention Special Forces Group (two battalions), a GAFE battalion (roughly equivalent to US Delta Force or Soviet Spetsnaz), two Marine commando regiments (equal to US Marine Raiders), a FES battalion (roughly equivalent to the SEALs), a Parachute Rifle Brigade (including one dedicated Parachute Rifle Special Forces battalion) (roughly equivalent to the US Rangers)), and six independent LRRP companies. Another Marine brigade under exclusive navy command rounds out the available forces.

[Brit]

Thank you for that info. RN7.

[cawest]

[
TOTAL 1258
The Mexican Air Force in 1998 included the following combat aircraft:
Mirage F-1E 128
Mirage F-1S 14
MiG-21F-13 27
MiG-21M 58
MiG-21UM 7
MiG-23BN 21
MiG-23MF 8
MiG-23UB 3
Mirage 4000 60
Jaguar A 76
L-39Z 27
F-5E 28
TOTAL 438

The MiG-21Ms, MiG-23BNs/MFs and L-39Zs had been updated to use Magic II IRMs, which the Mexican’s possessed in considerable numbers. The Israelis also updated a number of MiG-21M to use the Python-4. The MiG-21F-13s continued to use AA-8 and AA-11 missiles, but they were for the most part retained for air defense in Mexico though the pilots primarily trained for the attack role (armed with a pair of rocket pods and two 1100-lb bombs) and used that training during the civil war, hitting rebel ground forces advancing on Mexico City. Mexican combat squadrons numbered between 12 to 20 aircraft.

[/QUOTE]

This is good, but your AF is short recon. you might want to change a few mig-21 to MIG-21R or give them a half squadron of Mig-25's. Mig25s are hard to keep flying so you might want to keep that in mind

[Olefin]

[
TOTAL 1258
The Mexican Air Force in 1998 included the following combat aircraft:
Mirage F-1E 128
Mirage F-1S 14
MiG-21F-13 27
MiG-21M 58
MiG-21UM 7
MiG-23BN 21
MiG-23MF 8
MiG-23UB 3
Mirage 4000 60
Jaguar A 76
L-39Z 27
F-5E 28
TOTAL 438

The MiG-21Ms, MiG-23BNs/MFs and L-39Zs had been updated to use Magic II IRMs, which the Mexican’s possessed in considerable numbers. The Israelis also updated a number of MiG-21M to use the Python-4. The MiG-21F-13s continued to use AA-8 and AA-11 missiles, but they were for the most part retained for air defense in Mexico though the pilots primarily trained for the attack role (armed with a pair of rocket pods and two 1100-lb bombs) and used that training during the civil war, hitting rebel ground forces advancing on Mexico City. Mexican combat squadrons numbered between 12 to 20 aircraft.



This is good, but your AF is short recon. you might want to change a few mig-21 to MIG-21R or give them a half squadron of Mig-25's. Mig25s are hard to keep flying so you might want to keep that in mind[/QUOTE]

I think this was supposed to go in another thread

[ArmySGT.]

V1 placed a lot of emphasis on Tanks and on ATGMS. What should have had as much (or more) Artillery and mortars at 120mm and above.

Artillery is the King of Battle without which your defense or attack fails before it ever began. World War One taught everyone the worst thing is to sit huddled in your bunker as your position is relentlessly pounded with tons of HE for days.

I would think that surviving Divisions and Brigades hold on because their artillery battery (ies) survive along with a Fire Direction center and forward observers.

Free cities and enclaves, as well, because they are able to hit back projecting force miles and miles (kilometers) from their walled defense.

[The Dark]

No, the worst thing is to have your position relentlessly pounded for days by HE and not have a bunker. :p

One of the problems for post-oops artillery is going to be spotting. A battery needs someone with eyes on the target, and with fuel being scarce and communications devices no longer being manufactured, the number of ways to do that becomes limited. That's a role that ultralights might do well in, although they'd be hideously vulnerable to any surviving ZSUs or similar AAA systems.

[Olefin]

Been looking at the Stingray Tank and how many might have been available for the US Army in the timeline

The canon has these as being made for a Pakistani Army order but taken over when the war broke out and delivered instead to US Army units in Europe and the US.

Looking at the history of the Pakistani Army and their tank buys I am thinking that the most likely buy this would have replaced in the real world would have been the order for 268 Type-85-IIM tanks that China sold to Pakistan from 1992-1996 as well as the 320 tanks that Pakistan was interested in buying from the Ukraine from 1997-1999 and also the 250 Type-69 tanks that were delivered from 1993-1999. Given the tensions with the Soviet Union of the V1 timeline any of the Chinese orders may have only been partially delivered prior to the war with the Soviets.

Thus the Pakistani's turned to the US and bought Stingray's, some of which probably got delivered and the rest were what was taken over by the US Army. Most likely as the war started with the Soviets the Army also ordered light tanks of their own as well but these arent mentioned in the timeline (i.e. it makes it sound like all they got were the ones being built for Pakistan)

One question would be if there was an order being built would Textron have closed down the Cocoa Beach facility and moved it to Louisiana in 1994? Or possibly kept the tank facility where it was and only moved light armored vehicle production there instead?

[CDAT]

Just one quick thing, not sure if you want it or not (not sure what would have happened in timeline) I was at Knox in 93' doing training on M1's, some of the guys in my platoon (not me so everything is second hand) got to train on the A2's that were going to Saudi. My understanding is that they had a battalion of M1A2 there for the Kingdom and were using them to train their crew, but when not is use for their guys we used them to train our guys. After the training was done word was they would then ship them to them.

[swaghauler]

In my alternate timeline, I had Texas grabbing the 95 Cadillac Gauges that were shipped to Thailand.

[Olefin]

the Cadillac Gages that were shipped to Thailand went a long time before the war - you are talking about early 90's - however there were, per canon, new ones going to Pakistan that they could grab

[swaghauler]

the Cadillac Gages that were shipped to Thailand went a long time before the war - you are talking about early 90's - however there were, per canon, new ones going to Pakistan that they could grab

I'm referring to Thailand's 1997 request for assistance/military aid where they were originally going to contract for 95 Stingray II tanks to supplement their original order. In my timeline, this request is granted but NOT fulfilled before the Exchange. In the real world, the US Government decided to AND actually did give Thailand M60A3 tanks and upgraded the 1991 M60A1 tank delivery to M60A3 standard (as well as providing parts for the 75 M48A5's).

[Olefin]

Now that makes sense - and the Stingray is a pretty good tank for fighting against Mexico and Division Cuba

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Been looking at the Stingray Tank and how many might have been available for the US Army in the timeline

The canon has these as being made for a Pakistani Army order but taken over when the war broke out and delivered instead to US Army units in Europe and the US.

Looking at the history of the Pakistani Army and their tank buys I am thinking that the most likely buy this would have replaced in the real world would have been the order for 268 Type-85-IIM tanks that China sold to Pakistan from 1992-1996 as well as the 320 tanks that Pakistan was interested in buying from the Ukraine from 1997-1999 and also the 250 Type-69 tanks that were delivered from 1993-1999. Given the tensions with the Soviet Union of the V1 timeline any of the Chinese orders may have only been partially delivered prior to the war with the Soviets.

Thus the Pakistani's turned to the US and bought Stingray's, some of which probably got delivered and the rest were what was taken over by the US Army. Most likely as the war started with the Soviets the Army also ordered light tanks of their own as well but these arent mentioned in the timeline (i.e. it makes it sound like all they got were the ones being built for Pakistan)

One question would be if there was an order being built would Textron have closed down the Cocoa Beach facility and moved it to Louisiana in 1994? Or possibly kept the tank facility where it was and only moved light armored vehicle production there instead?

Either location would be destroyed, no? Cocoa is cheek-to-jowl with Titusville which of course has USAF satellite launch facilities (and there's a strike of 10 1mt warheads in a pattern over there to kill KSC and Patrick AFB), and Textron Land Systems are in Slidell, LA, and are going to be flooded when the locks are destroyed by a strike on New Orleans.

[Olefin]

Either location would be destroyed, no? Cocoa is cheek-to-jowl with Titusville which of course has USAF satellite launch facilities (and there's a strike of 10 1mt warheads in a pattern over there to kill KSC and Patrick AFB), and Textron Land Systems are in Slidell, LA, and are going to be flooded when the locks are destroyed by a strike on New Orleans.

Actually it was 10 100 kiloton blasts that added up to one megaton on KSC

And looking at where the nukes hit in the New Orleans area there is a good chance the factory survived - the strikes were all the south of it along the Mississippi River - meaning the factory has a good chance of making it thru the TDM

[Legbreaker]

Physically may have survived, but that dang fallout always goes where you least want it!
As I've mentioned many times over the years, even just the rumour of radiation could well keep the place deserted.

[Olefin]

The attacks were airbursts so there wouldnt have been much fallout - and if the Lima Tank Plant survived - as it did per Challenge Magazine - then most likely at least one of the two Cadillac Gage tank plants survived - meaning a very good place for an adventure a la the Ohio Challenge Magazine article

[Legbreaker]

Doesn't have to be actual fallout though, just the rumour of it to keep people away.
NOBODY wants to risk radiation poisoning and potential death.

[Olefin]

and thats what kept the Lima Tank Plant intact - i.e. everyone ran away from the presumed fallout and didnt do to it what happened to a lot of other factories and workshops - and as a result there is an intact tank factory waiting to be used again one day - and all kinds of parts you can use to keep the tanks you have left still going - even in this case if the tanks are Stingrays instead of M1's

[swaghauler]

Now that makes sense - and the Stingray is a pretty good tank for fighting against Mexico and Division Cuba

I sometimes wonder if the Clinton Administration didn't cut Cadillac Gage's feet out from under them for political purposes (this would have been the first order of Stingray IIs produced)? Then again, they did give Thailand M60A1s and M48A5s in 1991. This makes me think that maybe this was just a "cash grab" and a chance to get rid of some unwanted surplus instead.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

and thats what kept the Lima Tank Plant intact - i.e. everyone ran away from the presumed fallout and didnt do to it what happened to a lot of other factories and workshops - and as a result there is an intact tank factory waiting to be used again one day - and all kinds of parts you can use to keep the tanks you have left still going - even in this case if the tanks are Stingrays instead of M1's

While I agree with you about the infrastructure the problem is the people. If you house them far enough away that their fears of fallout are ameliorated, they're going to require safe transportation to and from the facility which means fuel and other resources. Then there's power to the factory. I'm sure you (of any of us!) is aware of the amperage draw of the plasma torches that they use to cut armor sections with, or run the glass-bead-blasting chambers that prep armor for NBC paint coating, cranes to move turrets, lathes to true gun tubes, and on and on.

Then there's a question of lost expertise: how many very specialized jobs were handled by highly trained individuals who are now an ash shadow on the sidewalk next to what used to be their house? How do you train new people?

And the ones who survived, how do you motivate them to come back in to work when they're more worried about growing eggplant in their bathtub so they'll have enough food to last them a few weeks down the road?

Don't get me wrong, in general, I want to be on your side of the argument, but it's more than just "We have a working tank factory."

Also, one last thing: canonically Florida was devastated by five hurricanes from 1997 to 2000 (one part of Howling Wilderness I can buy in to). If the space coast got hit by a few, that plant in FL might be gone - flattened. If any of them got into the gulf ala Katrina, so might the one in LA.

Again, I'm not yelling at you saying you're just wrong wrong wrong, I just want to be realistic about it. I mean for my home campaign (just because I don't buy into the "We must make this fit AD 2300" storyline) I could see one or both facilities surviving, so I'm with you there.

[Olefin]

Oh I completely agree about the problem getting people who are trained to get the plant back up and operating again - still its definitely a good thing to have the factory still standing and all the equipment, tooling, etc.. still intact - compared to what happened to the USN sub base in The Last Submarine (which basically got torn apart by the mob looking for food)

even just having the tools and spare parts that would be stockpiled at a tank plant would be a gold mine - including the armor plate that would be stockpiled there

[Olefin]

While I agree with you about the infrastructure the problem is the people. If you house them far enough away that their fears of fallout are ameliorated, they're going to require safe transportation to and from the facility which means fuel and other resources. Then there's power to the factory. I'm sure you (of any of us!) is aware of the amperage draw of the plasma torches that they use to cut armor sections with, or run the glass-bead-blasting chambers that prep armor for NBC paint coating, cranes to move turrets, lathes to true gun tubes, and on and on.

Then there's a question of lost expertise: how many very specialized jobs were handled by highly trained individuals who are now an ash shadow on the sidewalk next to what used to be their house? How do you train new people?

And the ones who survived, how do you motivate them to come back in to work when they're more worried about growing eggplant in their bathtub so they'll have enough food to last them a few weeks down the road?

Don't get me wrong, in general, I want to be on your side of the argument, but it's more than just "We have a working tank factory."

Also, one last thing: canonically Florida was devastated by five hurricanes from 1997 to 2000 (one part of Howling Wilderness I can buy in to). If the space coast got hit by a few, that plant in FL might be gone - flattened. If any of them got into the gulf ala Katrina, so might the one in LA.

Again, I'm not yelling at you saying you're just wrong wrong wrong, I just want to be realistic about it. I mean for my home campaign (just because I don't buy into the "We must make this fit AD 2300" storyline) I could see one or both facilities surviving, so I'm with you there.

FYI keep in mind that plants like that always have back up fuel supplies and power supplies on hand to operate the plant - the plant at York I worked at could keep going for several days if need be and in war time had the ability to stock pile fuel to extend that time

the question is more do the employees all run for the hills like they did at Lima and leave two tanks basically ready to be delivered or within a few man hours of being delivered - which is pretty understandable considering where that particular nuke hit - course considering the timing of the strike production may have been stopped for the holiday and thats why those two tanks never got finished

the thing that is interesting about the Lima module is that if the plant was abandoned like that someone had to have come back to get the tanks that were in deliverable condition

you never ever have no inventory even in wartime - there would be at least some tanks sitting on railcars or ready to be loaded still at the plant with their systems shut down and thus no damage from the EMP from the bomb going off